WEBVTT
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Hey everybody, welcome to Chasing Faith.
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Hi, Jason.
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Hello.
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Happy Easter.
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You know, it's my favorite holiday, of course, because of the recture.
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Sorry, can we start again?
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I know.
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Okay, we don't have to start again.
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I can say it.
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Resurrection.
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Yes.
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And also because of jelly beans.
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It's my main food group.
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I always liked uh we always had like a new Easter suit, new Easter clothes.
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Yeah.
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New clothes for Easter.
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Oh yeah.
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Oh yeah.
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Little little bonnets, the girls.
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My Easter tradition, I I told you this, is every Easter Sunday morning I go to YouTube and I call uh Google Dolly Pardon, he's alive, and it's a live performance from her her TV show from like the 80s.
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Yeah.
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And it's an amazing song.
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And if you listen to it, it will definitely get your day going in the right direction.
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Here's a little uh clip.
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So that's Nelly.
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Uh he's alive in my um Easter tradition.
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Do you have any Easter traditions?
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I my favorite sermon of all time, and you often hear this on Good Friday or Easter, is you know, there's Friday, but Sunday is coming.
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You know, which universally, hopefully to everybody says, Yes, they're suffering, but you know, Sunday is coming.
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Um, my church, they're doing two services at um vintage Malibu because I posted this last week.
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The church was so crowded that there was a line at the men's room.
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Oh wow.
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So the church is exploding, obviously.
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Wow.
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That's right.
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They don't like to do two services because we used to a long time ago when we were in a smaller facility.
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You know, we're nomad, we don't have an actual building.
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And um everybody went to the early service, except me, of course.
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You know, I went to the lake one.
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Even like the pepperdine kids, everybody went to the early service.
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So they stopped having two, but now the church has just grown.
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So is it the same service like repeat or are they different?
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I don't know, I've never gone to both.
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I'm not that good.
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That's funny.
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So there's an Easter tradition here in Palm Springs that I just realized that uh on the um O'Donnell golf course, there's a sunrise service, and it's been going on since 1917.
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Oh, wow.
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I thought that was kind of cool.
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It was started by Nellie Kaufman.
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She was one of the city founders and uh founded The Desert Inn back in, you know, before that.
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But I thought that was pretty cool.
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I didn't realize it'd have been going on for over a hundred years.
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And are you gonna uh get up and go?
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We'll see.
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I take that as a no.
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But this is a you know, I am I am always at least five minutes late for church, so you miss one song.
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So never any judgment.
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So today we get to talk to someone who I just adore.
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Thank you for indulging me, Mike Morgan, who is a pastor at Beller Presbyterian, which, if you are ever in LA, it is a gorgeous church.
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Um, but for a long time he was a youth pastor at Malibu Press, where I went, and he was my son's youth pastor, so he has a very special place in my heart.
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Yes.
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Um Malibu Press, you're right, is a huge church.
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I mean, the Reagans went there.
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Yeah.
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Yeah, that that's a fancy, somewhat celebrity church, but a beautiful, beautiful spiritual place too.
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Yes.
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I think I I I went to a funeral there, but I can't remember what it was, but that's the only time I've been there.
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But it's a beautiful space.
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Yeah, it's it's a stunning church.
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And um, I love to go hear Mike preach.
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And today he has, I think, a really lovely Easter message for us.
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So, Mike Morgan, haven't seen you in way too long.
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Seriously.
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So long.
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So great to see you.
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Full disclosure, Mike was my son's youth pastor.
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And uh okay, I tend to think that my son was an angel, but you can enough time has passed that you can now tell me the truth.
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Oh, come on, Nash is amazing.
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I just can't say enough about your son.
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He's such a great kid.
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I mean, kid.
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He's not a kid anymore.
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He's a grown man.
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He's a married man.
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A married man.
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That just blows my mind.
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I can't, I can still, you know, he would hate me saying this.
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So I'm but I have still like throwing him in the pool, you know, like it's just this.
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I know I can just picture him as a teenager.
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He's awesome.
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But uh no, he's a grown man now.
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So he's a married man.
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Well, I think I miss him.
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What you did as a youth pastor was you made it fun.
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You made it an adventure.
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I mean, when I got confirmed, I think, you know, being Catholic, I think the priests sort of slap me not hard, but slap me.
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That's just what they do.
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You took them on a whitewater rafting trip when they were getting confirmed.
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Yeah, it's a little bit different of an experience.
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Sure.
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I mean, both are valuable, but yeah, it's a little bit different.
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I mean, to be able to work with young people is an incredible thing.
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You know, I think that uh we need a lot of compassionate adults in kids' lives.
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And I think that it's just it's such a gift.
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Uh the fact that you would entrust me with your son, which you might want to rethink about that, you know, in the sense of like, I don't know how he turned out okay.
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He turned out all right.
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And he got back safely, you know.
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That was good.
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You were young too.
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I know, that's what I'm saying.
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I'm like, wow, how old was I?
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And I took your son on a white water rafting trip.
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Uh that's all right.
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And and I I think Jason knows this, but um my son was being bar mitzvah because my husband's Jewish, and then he wanted to go to Christian camp with you.
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So of course we moved the bar mitzvah so he could go to Christian camp.
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So I've either exposed him to everything or screwed him up.
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I don't I don't know which I love it.
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It's so rich the environment that you've raised him in, you know, for him to have that perspective.
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And I love your family.
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I love uh what you're doing here.
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I love this podcast.
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This is great.
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Oh, thank you.
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It must be rewarding to to see kids grow.
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Because you you probably get them, what, 13, 14, and you see them all the way through like high school.
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And that must that growth period, that's a huge growth period for people, and I think it's must be very rewarding for you.
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Yeah, it is.
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It's a massive, uh, very important time, right?
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I mean, could you imagine?
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I I r being reminded of myself when I was 13 years old, uh, how insecure I was, how awkward I was, how self-conscious I was, you know.
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And you're forming your identity, you're forming like, who am I in the world?
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Do people the big question is like, do people like me?
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Uh it's, you know, and to be able to say to somebody, I mean, it's easy for Nash, I can just look at him and go, oh my gosh, who doesn't like you?
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He's just such a likable guy.
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But um, you know, for kids are coming with that question and they're not getting that answered, or they're getting an answer in a lot of different ways.
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And so for uh compassionate adults to be able to see young people and say, man, not only do I love you, I like you.
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I like who you are.
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I want to, you know, spend time with you.
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I want to know you.
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I want to ask you questions and hear your what are you thinking about these days?
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Like, what are you processing?
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Uh, to be able to sit with people, young people specifically, and give them space for that.
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Um, you know, and then they they open up, you know, and so it's just an important time of life.
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Uh I only get to see them for a small period of time from that.
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It does, you know, four years or six years if I'm working with them in middle school.
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Uh, but then I'm so curious about what's going on college and post-college and married life, and uh it's a pretty wild experience.
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Yeah.
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You know, um, just hearing you say the word love, I've been listening to the series that you're doing on the you Bible version.
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By the way, if anybody needs a free Bible app, it is amazing.
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Yeah.
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And you speak so beautifully uh about love, but I feel like we're in a moment where everybody hates each other.
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I laugh.
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That's not yes, you're it does feel that way, doesn't it?
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Yeah.
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Sometimes.
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Yeah.
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Well, it is one of those things where uh, you know, we love people who uh look like us and think like us and act like us and believe the same things we believe, and um that's easy, you know.
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That's not real.
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Um even what kind of Jesus kind of love is, you know, if you think about how God loves us, uh it's we we didn't look and think and act and believe all those things, and yet God still demonstrated his love towards us.
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So uh to be the church, I think, in this season is vital.
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We need uh people really demonstrating what does love look like with people that are different than me.
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People that don't agree with me.
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Easy to say, uh really hard to live out.
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I saw something that you said um about we're not present with each other anymore.
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I don't know if it's because we're on our phones or we're just distracted, but that that is a source of love, just really being present.
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Absolutely.
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I mean, think the gift, the gift of presence, the gift of listening.
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Uh listening not to win an argument.
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Uh you know, if we could learn to listen well uh and not listen to figure out how I'm gonna respond to whatever it is you're saying.
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Uh to give that gift of space and time and presence, um, really seeking to understand rather than to be understood.
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Uh listening is such a gift right now.
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It cannot be understated how important it is, and yet how seldom we do it.
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It's it's so hard to listen to someone whom you might disagree with and not get flooded, not get hooked, not want to react and respond and prove you're right, and all those things, you know.
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Uh I could be the only one.
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Am I the only one that has that experience?
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I think this is like a common thing, right?
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And so that that is such a gift.
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And to walk away feeling known.
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What a beautiful thing.
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I think that that's a beautiful thing.
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Yeah.
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What a needed thing in our time right now, in our culture, for sure.
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That's what I love about this podcast is doing listening to people and learning things.
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And you know, every week I take away something different from from someone new I met.
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You're a second Presbyterian minister, but you have very different We're talking about very different things.
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Oh, that's fun.
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I think other than when I'm interviewing somebody, so this is good listening experience for me.
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I think I kind of do what you just said.
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I I listen with it with a thought of what's my response.
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Even when I'm and I know now you're working with adults, not kids so much.
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And I I'm sure you're doing grief counseling.
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And I I just I probably need to learn how to really listen without thinking of what I'm gonna say next.
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And as you're thinking about what you're gonna say, uh, if you are thinking about what you're gonna say, uh there's that was that um skill of the yes and, you know, a lot of us respond with a no but, you know.
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And so this is like Hollywood acting kind of improv training or something.
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But I think it's such an important skill to learn to be able to say yes and to somebody.
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And so if you're listening for agreement and you're listening to contribute in a positive way to the conversation, as opposed to looking to refute and to pick apart and to dismantle um someone's position, um, I think that that, you know, there's a very different end result that can come from that.
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And I think the both of you are you're doing that every single time you interview somebody, you're looking and listening and yes anding.
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Uh, what a great skill for us to be able to start to live into as a people, uh, not just for interviews, but just to how can I, is there anything in this that I can say yes to?
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And then how can I contribute in a positive way to the rest of the conversation?
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I think that would be a great, great thing.
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Yeah.
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Um, man, there's a lot there, but I think that is a form of love, isn't it?
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Uh just to be able to offer compassionate space.
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Um when you do get hooked, because you will, when you do get flooded, because you will, uh, to not react out of that.
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Uh we've done series at our church talking about the first response.
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What's our first response when you're angry?
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You know, what's your first response when you feel overwhelmed?
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What's your first response uh when you've been wronged?
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You know, all those things.
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And uh oftentimes it's like, I can tell you what my first response is, you know, I want to fight.
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Or I want to flee.
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I just want to abandon the relationship.
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I want to be out.
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I want to leave the table.
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And to offer that way of saying, I'm staying at the table, I'm listening deeply, I'm holding my reaction, you know, as uh people of faith.
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We're gonna go to God in prayer.
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And uh, even in the moment, like, oh my gosh, Lord, you know how I want to respond right now.
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Please hold my tongue.
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Uh, you know?
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And then uh to be able to respond in love.
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I that again is something that the Holy Spirit can strengthen us in.
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Uh it's not something that is my natural response, uh, unfortunately.
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Uh, but the good news is that it doesn't have to be that God's there to help me with that.
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So I think it's a gift for sure.
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I think sometimes I always want to be helpful, and then maybe it's not helpful to be trying so hard to be helpful.
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Does that make sense?
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Well, yeah.
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Tell me more about what when you think about being helpful.
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You tell me more about what you're saying there.
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Well, I think what I probably need to do is ask the Holy Spirit for a little advice because I want to give advice.
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I want I want to make this person feel better.
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Yeah, I want to help solve the problem.
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And maybe by jumping in, I'm I'm not really helping.
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That's really good.
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You know, I I appreciate you saying that, Dorothy.
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I am guilty of that.
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Uh at least that's what my wife would say that I'm guilty of it for sure.
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Because I, you know, she'll share something with me.
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She's like, I'm not asking you to fix it.
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I'm not asking you to solve it.
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I just want you to listen.
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And I'm like, oh, but I'm really good at trying to fix stuff.
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Let me fix it.
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Uh but that's not necessarily demonstrating love.
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I think it is, you know, oh, look, I fixed it for you.
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Therefore, I love you.
00:15:03.440 --> 00:15:10.080
She's like, no, just listen to me and be present with me and hold the space with me, you know.
00:15:10.240 --> 00:15:11.600
So you're not alone.
00:15:11.759 --> 00:15:14.960
Uh I'm definitely with you in that for sure.
00:15:15.519 --> 00:15:19.279
Okay, your wife, who A, has the best hair in all of LA, which is saying something.
00:15:19.919 --> 00:15:20.639
Thank you for that.
00:15:20.720 --> 00:15:20.960
Yes.
00:15:21.120 --> 00:15:22.159
She was beautiful.
00:15:22.879 --> 00:15:24.080
Such a gorgeous woman.
00:15:24.320 --> 00:15:28.960
And also on her way, is she is she graduating?
00:15:29.120 --> 00:15:36.080
Is she Well, yeah, she's graduated from seminary and she's under uh the process right now of ordination.
00:15:36.240 --> 00:15:40.399
And so within our tradition, there's a long process.
00:15:40.639 --> 00:15:45.759
And uh so she's undergoing that, but she's under care of our session and just discerning.
00:15:46.000 --> 00:15:47.120
God, what do you have for me?
00:15:47.200 --> 00:15:55.120
You know, she's a really talented preacher, she's uh wonderful counselor, um, meeting with people, talk about holding space for people.
00:15:55.360 --> 00:15:57.759
Oh my gosh, she's incredible in that way.
00:15:57.919 --> 00:16:01.039
Uh, she's a riot, she loves to have fun.
00:16:01.200 --> 00:16:04.720
Uh, you know, she would love to be uh with the two of you.
00:16:04.879 --> 00:16:06.480
She likes to be on the dance floor.
00:16:06.720 --> 00:16:10.559
People, when when I officiate a wedding, they don't know what to do with us.
00:16:10.720 --> 00:16:12.639
They really have no clue what to do with us.
00:16:12.799 --> 00:16:17.759
Because, you know, like some people hire people to get on the dance floor to start the party.
00:16:17.919 --> 00:16:19.120
They don't need to with us.
00:16:19.200 --> 00:16:21.600
They're like, oh, didn't you just officiate the wedding?
00:16:21.679 --> 00:16:22.879
I'm like, yeah, we're dancing.
00:16:22.960 --> 00:16:23.919
Like this, let's go.
00:16:24.080 --> 00:16:24.799
This is fun.
00:16:24.960 --> 00:16:28.399
Like, so she and I um we have a riot.
00:16:28.480 --> 00:16:30.159
We just are have so much fun together.
00:16:30.320 --> 00:16:35.600
But yeah, she's incredible, beautiful, talented, smart, um, all the things, yeah.
00:16:36.080 --> 00:16:37.919
Are you guys gonna work together?
00:16:38.240 --> 00:16:39.279
Well, we do currently.
00:16:39.440 --> 00:16:41.840
So we currently serve in the same community.
00:16:42.000 --> 00:16:53.200
Uh, and yeah, we could we just, you know, it's one of those one plus one equals three things uh where we and we don't want to serve in two different communities, you know.
00:16:53.519 --> 00:16:59.120
That'd be hard to put roots down if you're both kind of investing in two different communities.
00:16:59.440 --> 00:17:05.279
So, you know, that's one of the gifts that we have right now in the community that we serve in, is that we get to do this together.
00:17:05.440 --> 00:17:08.559
Uh, we're in very different environments oftentimes, right?
00:17:08.720 --> 00:17:18.240
Um there's wisdom in that when a husband and wife are working in the same uh context, uh, to have like no one's reporting to each other, you know, those kinds of things.
00:17:18.400 --> 00:17:23.759
Um, but man, we really enjoy ministry and what you're doing right now, this is our life.
00:17:23.839 --> 00:17:29.119
Like we come home and we're like, we should just record this because we are always talking about faith.
00:17:29.279 --> 00:17:32.400
We're always talking about life and how those two things intersect.
00:17:32.480 --> 00:17:38.480
And um so yeah, to be able to do ministry with my wife is just incredible.
00:17:38.559 --> 00:17:42.480
Uh, as she's a preacher, as she's a teacher, as she's a leader.
00:17:42.640 --> 00:17:45.920
Um, to be able to serve alongside her is a huge gift.
00:17:46.079 --> 00:17:46.240
Yeah.
00:17:47.119 --> 00:17:49.680
Do you do uh premarital counseling together?
00:17:50.000 --> 00:17:53.599
Uh, you know, we have done a little bit of that in the past.
00:17:53.759 --> 00:18:00.400
Uh, like we'll maybe facilitate a panel conversation or something like that in our premarital counseling.
00:18:00.559 --> 00:18:03.359
Uh typically we do it individually.
00:18:03.519 --> 00:18:08.240
Um, but yeah, you know, and we do post-marital counseling together too, you know?
00:18:08.480 --> 00:18:13.359
It's like you do the premarital, but then you have your first year and you're like, okay, come on back.
00:18:14.480 --> 00:18:20.640
Uh what's the biggest, what's the most important piece of uh advice or guidance do you offer a couple?
00:18:21.119 --> 00:18:23.200
Oh my goodness, Jason, what a great question.
00:18:23.359 --> 00:18:25.519
Uh it's a really great question.
00:18:25.759 --> 00:18:28.160
Most important piece of advice.
00:18:28.400 --> 00:18:33.680
Uh, you know, you're you're not marrying the person to change the person, I think is one of them.
00:18:33.839 --> 00:18:45.440
You know, uh yeah, you are saying yes to the person for who they are today, not who they're going to be, knowing that we all change and we all grow and all those things.
00:18:45.519 --> 00:18:51.920
Uh, but it's not yes uh but or yes when, uh it's yes now.
00:18:52.319 --> 00:18:54.799
And we're gonna, oh my goodness.
00:18:55.119 --> 00:18:55.440
Right?
00:18:55.920 --> 00:19:02.559
We're all married, so we know like the first year you're like, wait a minute, you do what?
00:19:02.640 --> 00:19:07.519
And you don't load the dishwasher how, and you don't push your drawers in all the way.
00:19:07.680 --> 00:19:08.880
Like, what is going on?
00:19:09.039 --> 00:19:09.920
Why is this?
00:19:10.160 --> 00:19:15.599
Um, that sh sheds a little bit of light into my uh idiosyncrasies.
00:19:15.680 --> 00:19:20.640
But uh I think that those kinds of things are wow, I didn't know this about you.
00:19:20.880 --> 00:19:24.160
Instead of being like, oh my gosh, I didn't know this.
00:19:24.400 --> 00:19:31.039
It's like, how do we have an attitude of discovery and appreciation and wanting to learn?
00:19:31.200 --> 00:19:38.480
I can't say that I live this out all the time, but I want to, I want to continue to discover who my spouse is, you know.
00:19:38.640 --> 00:19:44.400
Uh so never lose sight of that is something that's really important uh in marriage.
00:19:44.640 --> 00:19:48.880
Now, that's not my um, you know, spiritual advice that I would give.
00:19:49.039 --> 00:19:52.319
I think that's just uh the relational advice that I would give.
00:19:52.480 --> 00:19:58.079
Uh, and you know, that there's the spiritual side of things is you're not in this alone.
00:19:58.400 --> 00:20:01.519
And so you don't have to live as though you're alone.
00:20:01.839 --> 00:20:05.680
You're also not going to the person saying, Do you love me?
00:20:05.920 --> 00:20:08.880
And you're not looking for that answer in that person.
00:20:09.039 --> 00:20:15.759
You are going to that person as one who's already loved, and that you can then bring that love to that person.
00:20:16.160 --> 00:20:18.160
If you're constantly asking, Am I lovable?
00:20:18.240 --> 00:20:18.799
Am I lovable?
00:20:18.880 --> 00:20:19.359
Do you love me?
00:20:19.519 --> 00:20:20.319
Do you love me?
00:20:20.480 --> 00:20:28.240
Uh that's you're then going to be trying to get that from the person as opposed to infusing that love into the relationship.
00:20:30.960 --> 00:20:36.559
I saw something you said about um we can't grow without a foundation.
00:20:38.319 --> 00:20:39.839
Like everything needs a foundation.
00:20:39.920 --> 00:20:43.519
And I heard you say, and I thought this was so beautiful, that the nails are really gratitude.
00:20:43.839 --> 00:20:47.839
Yeah, there's a there's a foundation from which we grow from.
00:20:48.000 --> 00:20:50.559
And so we've all had different foundations.
00:20:50.720 --> 00:20:58.480
So, Jason, you know, uh, you have come from a Baptist background, and that was a foundation that was laid for you.
00:20:58.640 --> 00:21:03.359
And I'm sure that there's things within that foundation that you could look back and say, I appreciate that.
00:21:03.680 --> 00:21:08.160
And I'm sure there's some things from that foundation you'd say, I might change that, you know.
00:21:08.319 --> 00:21:12.880
Um, and you have, you've made some different decisions, you're part of a new community, you know.
00:21:12.960 --> 00:21:16.160
So those are all things that you've you have a foundation.
00:21:16.240 --> 00:21:18.799
So we can say we we are grateful for that foundation.
00:21:18.960 --> 00:21:21.599
I think it's important from where we start.
00:21:21.920 --> 00:21:35.200
So, for example, my this devotional that I have uh through you version, the Bible app, uh, if you don't, like you said, if you don't have the Bible app, uh it's got a billion downloads, like one billion downloads, unique, which is crazy.
00:21:35.519 --> 00:21:40.319
But um the compelled by love is the devotional.
00:21:40.480 --> 00:21:45.359
And the title's intentional because that's the foundation from which everything comes from.
00:21:45.680 --> 00:21:47.839
Uh think about your faith journey.
00:21:48.000 --> 00:21:50.000
If you're uh in Lent, right?
00:21:50.079 --> 00:21:51.279
We're in a season of Lent.
00:21:51.359 --> 00:21:59.759
Uh if we're refraining from chocolate or uh alcohol or from whatever it is, so that we can get.
00:22:00.160 --> 00:22:10.880
God's approval in our life, then we are trying to, we are compelled not by God's love, we're compelled to try to earn God's love.
00:22:11.119 --> 00:22:12.000
Does that make sense?
00:22:12.160 --> 00:22:18.160
So the foundation of, am I love by God is an extremely important foundation to start from.
00:22:18.319 --> 00:22:29.440
And if we don't get that right, then we're always going to be striving and fighting and trying to demonstrate and prove that we're lovable and that God, you know, do you love me?
00:22:29.519 --> 00:22:30.880
And asking that question all the time.
00:22:30.960 --> 00:22:34.319
And God's like, hey, just rest.
00:22:35.920 --> 00:22:38.559
Rest in the fact that I'm that I love you.
00:22:38.720 --> 00:22:47.759
And then from that place, live your life from a place of being loved, that that foundation of being loved and see what comes from that, right?
00:22:47.920 --> 00:23:00.319
What grows out of that is vastly different than what grows from a place of fear or of worry or of anxiety or um of constantly being like, is God gonna zap me?
00:23:00.400 --> 00:23:02.480
I think he's just angry at me all the time.
00:23:03.039 --> 00:23:06.240
Vastly different things grow from that foundation.
00:23:06.400 --> 00:23:09.759
Um so that's what I was trying to communicate in that devotional.
00:23:12.400 --> 00:23:15.119
Boy, how do you get people to just settle into that?
00:23:15.359 --> 00:23:19.039
I guess again, it's presence if they're really listening and taking it in.
00:23:19.839 --> 00:23:20.079
Yeah.
00:23:20.240 --> 00:23:20.480
Yeah.
00:23:20.640 --> 00:23:28.240
How do you you know it's a rewiring, it's uh receiving um before we do anything.
00:23:30.000 --> 00:23:33.440
God, uh the the creator of the universe loves me?
00:23:33.599 --> 00:23:40.559
Like um that's kind of been the human question for a long time.
00:23:41.440 --> 00:23:46.480
And we've been looking for that answer in in a lot of different ways.
00:23:47.680 --> 00:23:54.000
And that's where I think you know, yeah, Jesus comes into play and says, Look, I really want you to know something.
00:23:54.400 --> 00:23:56.799
That question you've been asking all along.
00:23:56.960 --> 00:24:01.759
I I really want you to walk away, not wondering anymore whether or not God loves you.
00:24:01.920 --> 00:24:02.640
I love you.
00:24:02.880 --> 00:24:07.200
Now how do you experience that love?
00:24:07.440 --> 00:24:09.039
I think that comes through people.
00:24:09.200 --> 00:24:21.839
I think that comes through community, I think that comes through what we've talked about already in this of demonstrating presence and listening, but not just to say, oh my gosh, I feel loved by Dorothy.
00:24:22.000 --> 00:24:25.039
Uh I feel loved by God through Dorothy.
00:24:25.279 --> 00:24:29.519
God is using Dorothy to demonstrate God's love towards me.
00:24:29.680 --> 00:24:30.640
And I receive that.
00:24:30.799 --> 00:24:33.200
I receive it from Dorothy, but I also receive it from God.
00:24:33.359 --> 00:24:38.640
I'm not gonna discredit that and dismiss that as it's only a human experience.
00:24:38.880 --> 00:24:43.920
No, God has graced me with the community that I'm in.
00:24:44.079 --> 00:24:49.440
And so the love that I receive from that community, uh I receive as the love of God in my life.
00:24:49.599 --> 00:24:50.319
Um, yeah.
00:24:50.400 --> 00:24:54.720
So those are some of the things that are a shift, right?
00:24:54.799 --> 00:24:57.119
It's a it's a shift in thinking.
00:24:57.839 --> 00:24:58.240
Yeah.
00:24:58.400 --> 00:25:00.240
I heard that and I felt that.
00:25:02.480 --> 00:25:03.279
Well beautiful.
00:25:03.599 --> 00:25:05.119
Did you grow up in Southern California?
00:25:05.359 --> 00:25:06.160
I did, yeah.
00:25:06.319 --> 00:25:07.839
I grew up in San Diego.
00:25:07.920 --> 00:25:09.680
I'm now living in Los Angeles.
00:25:09.839 --> 00:25:15.200
Um and like you guys, I'm well, I'm a kaleidoscope of Christianity, is how I like to say it.
00:25:15.680 --> 00:25:21.599
Um I used to refer to myself as a Christian mutt, but I felt like that was derogatory or something.
00:25:21.759 --> 00:25:26.400
Uh but you know, the Baptist, I'm Baptist General Conference, so that was my upbringing.
00:25:26.640 --> 00:25:30.559
Wesleyan, uh non-denominational four square influences.
00:25:30.640 --> 00:25:32.640
And you're like, how did you become a Presbyterian?
00:25:35.279 --> 00:25:38.000
Oh anyway, yeah, it's been a journey.
00:25:38.160 --> 00:25:40.640
Um, but uh now where are you, Jason?
00:25:40.720 --> 00:25:42.240
Right now, you're in Tennessee, is that right?
00:25:42.400 --> 00:25:43.440
No, I'm in Palm Springs.
00:25:44.319 --> 00:25:45.359
Oh, okay, great.
00:25:45.599 --> 00:25:47.680
Now, did you where where were you raised?
00:25:48.000 --> 00:25:49.599
In Arkansas, Southern Baptist.
00:25:49.759 --> 00:25:53.279
And then I went to Congregational Church, UCC, in my youth.
00:25:53.759 --> 00:25:53.920
Okay.
00:25:54.160 --> 00:25:57.599
And once my career got started, I kind of fell away from it.
00:25:57.759 --> 00:25:59.039
But yeah.
00:25:59.359 --> 00:26:01.920
Yeah, well, and then Dorothy, you were raised Catholic.
00:26:02.000 --> 00:26:10.799
You and you've been to a Presbyterian church and now you're vintage and so we're all um mutt in a nice way.
00:26:11.119 --> 00:26:12.079
Kaleidoscopes.
00:26:12.400 --> 00:26:14.480
Kaleidoscope of Christian Christianity.
00:26:14.640 --> 00:26:15.200
I love it.
00:26:15.440 --> 00:26:17.839
Well, tell us a little bit about your call to the ministry.
00:26:18.319 --> 00:26:22.720
Yeah, you know, uh it's it's been an interesting journey in that call.
00:26:22.960 --> 00:26:27.519
Uh, you know, some people are just like, I know right away I'm gonna be a pastor.
00:26:27.759 --> 00:26:33.359
Uh I think my discernment was through, again, community and listening.
00:26:33.519 --> 00:26:47.119
Uh, you know, my family, um, my dad's been in real estate and in business, and my uh brother's in finance, and my other brother's in real estate, my sister's on her own, uh, her her own company and her own salon and all the stuff.
00:26:47.279 --> 00:26:49.519
And I just was like, I guess I'm supposed to do business.
00:26:49.680 --> 00:26:50.960
Like my family's in business.
00:26:51.119 --> 00:26:52.400
My mom's a teacher.
00:26:52.480 --> 00:26:57.839
Uh, so that might explain you know how I'm now a teacher in a different context.
00:26:58.000 --> 00:27:00.240
But initially I was like, I gotta do business.
00:27:00.400 --> 00:27:15.279
Um, but just over the journey, you know, having listening to different people, I would serve in different contexts, and people would see things in me and say, Mike, you're gonna either you're gonna take my job, you're gonna be the next youth pastor, or you need to really consider being a pastor.
00:27:15.359 --> 00:27:18.160
And I'm like, I don't know about that, you know?
00:27:18.720 --> 00:27:28.720
So um, you know, I think there was a season in my life where I experienced my first real uh solid call was I was on crutches.
00:27:29.039 --> 00:27:32.160
Um, I'm at uh comedy sports in Los Angeles.
00:27:32.319 --> 00:27:33.680
You guys know comedy sports?
00:27:33.759 --> 00:27:37.599
Uh it's like this improv place, uh, and it's super fun.
00:27:37.680 --> 00:27:43.920
But I'm there on a Friday night and it was some friends, and this old youth pastor who lived in San Diego.
00:27:44.079 --> 00:27:46.079
I run into him at Comedy Sports in Los Angeles.
00:27:46.160 --> 00:27:48.160
I'm like, Spike, because that's that's how I know him.
00:27:48.319 --> 00:27:49.279
I don't know his name.
00:27:49.440 --> 00:27:51.359
I honestly think it's Brian.
00:27:51.440 --> 00:27:52.480
I could be wrong.
00:27:52.720 --> 00:27:54.160
I just know him as Spike.
00:27:54.319 --> 00:27:56.480
And he he was like, Mike, what are you doing here?
00:27:56.720 --> 00:28:02.319
Long story short, he says, I just had you just came into my mind just yesterday, you know.
00:28:02.480 --> 00:28:04.400
Have you ever thought about going into ministry?
00:28:04.559 --> 00:28:06.240
I have an opportunity for you.
00:28:06.319 --> 00:28:12.720
And I was like, okay, I'm listening, you know, and that from that place I really started uh entering into ministry.
00:28:12.880 --> 00:28:15.920
Uh I have taught in like a private Christian school before.
00:28:16.079 --> 00:28:24.880
I did apply my undergraduate degree in business uh in it for a season, but God just kept pulling me back into ministry uh in the church.
00:28:25.119 --> 00:28:29.759
Now I say ministry in the church on purpose because I think ministry goes well beyond the church.
00:28:29.839 --> 00:28:41.599
I think we all are ministers, we all have our ministry, uh, whether whatever context it is, um, whatever environment you find yourself in, uh, but mine specifically was serving within the church.
00:28:41.759 --> 00:29:04.240
And uh being a pastor in the Presbyterian church, um, you know, that was a calling that just in looking back at my life and how uh God has formed me and the things that um some of my spiritual gifts, the things I'm passionate about, some of my abilities, all those things, my experiences, they all shaped me.
00:29:04.559 --> 00:29:15.680
And uh I just I was like, wow, when I saw the opportunity to be initially a congregational care pastor, like I wanted to be with people and sit with people, show up at the bedsides, you know, in the hospital or at homes.
00:29:15.759 --> 00:29:18.559
And when I saw that, it just mapped with my story.
00:29:18.640 --> 00:29:22.400
And I was like, okay, I guess that's I should apply for that one.
00:29:22.480 --> 00:29:24.079
And uh and here I am.
00:29:24.240 --> 00:29:27.279
So yeah, I don't know if that was a long-winded answer, but those are.
00:29:27.440 --> 00:29:30.799
No, God obviously found you where you were.
00:29:31.119 --> 00:29:31.680
Yeah.
00:29:32.720 --> 00:29:34.960
And it pulled me along in the journey, you know.
00:29:35.039 --> 00:29:47.200
It was like it took a little while to figure out, and I'm still in that discernment process of, you know, I I feel called uh to ministry, and I'm grateful to be able to serve the larger church.
00:29:47.519 --> 00:29:57.039
And I'm called to help people like you uh to minister in your context that you find yourselves in, because I think that the work that you're doing is equally as important.
00:29:57.519 --> 00:30:04.319
And um so again, I really believe in the priesthood of all believers and uh that everyone has a ministry.
00:30:04.640 --> 00:30:17.680
Um, what an opportunity for us to be the church uh wherever we find ourselves, uh, because that really um it's it's you know the Christian cliche, the blessed to be a blessing kind of idea.
00:30:18.240 --> 00:30:19.599
It's more than a cliche.
00:30:19.839 --> 00:30:36.880
It's like, no, really, we can make our environments uh more whole and and more lovely and um more welcoming and more honest and safer spaces, like all those things, you know, uh that we get to be the church in those ways.
00:30:37.119 --> 00:30:38.319
So yeah.
00:30:38.559 --> 00:30:39.759
So how did you get your call?
00:30:39.839 --> 00:30:40.720
No, I'm just kidding.
00:30:43.279 --> 00:30:46.480
This podcast was Jason's idea, so I give him full credit.
00:30:46.799 --> 00:30:47.200
That's good.
00:30:47.359 --> 00:30:48.000
I don't know.
00:30:49.920 --> 00:30:51.359
He's like, I don't know why.
00:30:51.440 --> 00:30:53.039
Uh I don't know about this.
00:30:54.000 --> 00:30:57.039
Well, it's a lot of work, so now he's like, I don't know why.
00:30:59.839 --> 00:31:02.559
Hey, so um what's your Easter message?
00:31:02.720 --> 00:31:04.720
I'd be with this off to ask you that.
00:31:05.119 --> 00:31:05.839
Yeah, that's great.
00:31:06.079 --> 00:31:20.559
Well, Easter, one of the things that I love about Easter, there's a lot um that I love about Easter, but one of the things that really comes to mind when you ask that question uh is how Jesus presents himself post-resurrection to Mary.
00:31:20.799 --> 00:31:27.200
Now, even as I tell this story, I can hear my wife in the back of my head, uh, she's saying, That's my story.
00:31:27.440 --> 00:31:37.279
So uh I give her credit for this uh in a lot of ways, but we both really love this moment where Jesus reveals himself to Mary after he's resurrected.
00:31:37.519 --> 00:31:40.480
And um she doesn't recognize him.
00:31:40.720 --> 00:31:45.759
She sees this guy in this garden and is like, Have you seen this Jesus guy?
00:31:45.920 --> 00:31:50.319
Um and she mistakes him as a gardener.
00:31:50.480 --> 00:31:52.559
And like, I think that's not a small detail.
00:31:52.640 --> 00:31:54.640
I think that's deeply theological.
00:31:55.200 --> 00:32:00.000
Because if you remember back in Genesis where God gets God's hands dirty, right?
00:32:00.240 --> 00:32:09.200
God is like the original gardener, God's got his hands in the dirt, forming and shaping and cultivating and creating, right?
00:32:09.359 --> 00:32:18.160
And so we have this God who um is again participating in this gardening moment.
00:32:18.640 --> 00:32:23.200
Um, it feels like a full circle moment for me.
00:32:23.759 --> 00:32:29.839
That this this gardener God reveals himself again in post-resurrection as a gardener.
00:32:29.920 --> 00:32:33.920
And yet this time uh Jesus is standing over the earth.
00:32:34.079 --> 00:32:37.440
He's not uh buried by it, he's not defeated by it.
00:32:37.599 --> 00:32:40.000
No, but he's cultivating something new.
00:32:40.240 --> 00:32:44.160
He's uh he's bringing about this newness of life.
00:32:44.319 --> 00:32:44.960
And I love this.
00:32:45.039 --> 00:32:49.839
I love that it reminds us that the under the earth isn't our final destination, right?
00:32:50.000 --> 00:32:51.759
That that's not the final resting place.
00:32:51.920 --> 00:32:54.000
The grave is not the end of the story.
00:32:54.160 --> 00:32:55.839
Death doesn't have the final word.
00:32:56.240 --> 00:33:04.000
Um, Jesus doesn't just rise from the garden, but he rises as the gardener.
00:33:04.240 --> 00:33:04.400
Wow.
00:33:04.559 --> 00:33:09.039
And he continues to cultivate this resurrection life in us.
00:33:09.200 --> 00:33:21.599
That he wants us to have life, to continue for that life to flourish and to grow, uh, and not just end, but to continue on um for all eternity, which is, I think, a beautiful thing.
00:33:21.759 --> 00:33:25.920
Uh so that's one of the thoughts that I reflect on this Easter with y'all.
00:33:26.400 --> 00:33:27.200
I love that.
00:33:27.440 --> 00:33:28.880
Tell Rebecca that's a good one.
00:33:29.119 --> 00:33:30.240
I know, right?
00:33:32.079 --> 00:33:34.160
Oh, that's so good.
00:33:34.319 --> 00:33:36.240
She will appreciate that you said that.
00:33:36.799 --> 00:33:40.240
And and you might have seen David go up the stairs before because he just came in.
00:33:41.039 --> 00:33:41.599
Is David here?
00:33:41.839 --> 00:33:43.119
Um my gosh.
00:33:43.279 --> 00:33:44.240
Tell him I said hi.
00:33:44.400 --> 00:33:45.119
Oh my goodness.
00:33:45.200 --> 00:33:47.119
You guys are so generous.
00:33:47.359 --> 00:33:49.200
I I have such fond memories.
00:33:49.359 --> 00:34:01.119
I remember being, like I said earlier, in your pool with uh Nash, and like, gosh, she's gonna hate that I tell this story, but like throwing them off your shoulders, you know, like that's what I think is like holding and launching them.
00:34:01.359 --> 00:34:03.680
But you guys would open up your home uh for us.
00:34:04.000 --> 00:34:05.359
I just think that's so generous.
00:34:05.440 --> 00:34:12.960
And what you're doing now with different people, how you're interviewing them, you're being generous with your time and with your space and with your listening.
00:34:13.199 --> 00:34:16.239
Both of you, uh, what a gift that you're offering people.
00:34:16.400 --> 00:34:19.119
So I appreciate the time that we got to spend together today.
00:34:19.199 --> 00:34:21.519
And I just want to say thank you uh for this opportunity.
00:34:21.599 --> 00:34:22.159
It's been great.
00:34:22.559 --> 00:34:24.559
Me too, and and much love to your family.
00:34:24.800 --> 00:34:26.159
Uh oh, yours as well.
00:34:26.320 --> 00:34:26.639
Yeah.
00:34:26.880 --> 00:34:27.679
Blessings.
00:34:28.719 --> 00:34:31.920
I liked his image of Jesus as a gardener.
00:34:32.239 --> 00:34:39.599
I I like that too, and I don't think I'd ever really thought of it that and I like the comparison of like God creating the world was a gardener too.
00:34:40.000 --> 00:34:40.400
Yeah.
00:34:41.840 --> 00:34:42.800
Lovely thought.
00:34:43.760 --> 00:34:52.800
I wanted to tell you, I read a study right before um we were gonna talk the other day about um prayer and your brain.
00:34:53.760 --> 00:35:03.280
So I think everybody knows prayer meditation is good for anxiety and stress, but there was a study done at Johns Hopkins that said prayer 12 minutes a day.
00:35:03.360 --> 00:35:07.039
I don't know that I'm timing myself that I'm praying that much, but that was the study.
00:35:07.280 --> 00:35:12.320
It actually strengthens your memory, your focus, strengthens your brain.
00:35:14.400 --> 00:35:16.400
12 minutes seems like a long time, though.
00:35:16.639 --> 00:35:17.280
I know.
00:35:20.159 --> 00:35:21.760
But I'm working on it.
00:35:24.960 --> 00:35:27.199
Will five minutes a day do anything for my brain?
00:35:27.280 --> 00:35:28.000
I don't know.
00:35:28.239 --> 00:35:29.519
It's a good start, right?
00:35:32.079 --> 00:35:36.320
You know, I'm very uh mindful of that stuff now.
00:35:36.480 --> 00:35:45.599
So I'm gonna try and um not time my my prayer life, but you know, maybe talk to God a little longer every day.
00:35:46.079 --> 00:35:46.480
That's good.
00:35:46.639 --> 00:35:48.400
Try every day, a little longer every day.
00:35:50.559 --> 00:35:52.320
Well, happy Easter, everybody.
00:35:52.480 --> 00:35:59.119
I hope everybody gets an Easter basket with jelly beans, which I will buy one for myself and one for the kids.
00:35:59.440 --> 00:36:04.400
I always like the um marshmallow covered, uh, chocolate-covered marshmallows that look like rabbits.
00:36:04.639 --> 00:36:06.000
Little butt Easter bunnies.
00:36:06.320 --> 00:36:07.360
The marshmallow thing.
00:36:07.440 --> 00:36:09.039
All right, to each his own.
00:36:11.039 --> 00:36:12.480
All right, happy Easter.
00:36:12.639 --> 00:36:16.239
If you like the show, give us good ratings, good reviews, and share with friends.
00:36:16.639 --> 00:36:21.599
And come chase faith with us on Instagram and let us know your faith story.
00:00:02.959 --> 00:00:05.200
Hey everybody, welcome to Chasing Faith.
00:00:05.280 --> 00:00:05.919
Hi, Jason.
00:00:06.240 --> 00:00:06.639
Hello.
00:00:06.799 --> 00:00:07.759
Happy Easter.
00:00:08.240 --> 00:00:11.039
You know, it's my favorite holiday, of course, because of the recture.
00:00:11.839 --> 00:00:12.560
Sorry, can we start again?
00:00:14.000 --> 00:00:14.800
I know.
00:00:17.280 --> 00:00:18.800
Okay, we don't have to start again.
00:00:18.879 --> 00:00:19.359
I can say it.
00:00:19.519 --> 00:00:20.640
Resurrection.
00:00:22.399 --> 00:00:23.039
Yes.
00:00:23.440 --> 00:00:25.280
And also because of jelly beans.
00:00:26.960 --> 00:00:28.640
It's my main food group.
00:00:28.960 --> 00:00:33.600
I always liked uh we always had like a new Easter suit, new Easter clothes.
00:00:33.759 --> 00:00:33.920
Yeah.
00:00:34.399 --> 00:00:35.759
New clothes for Easter.
00:00:36.079 --> 00:00:36.799
Oh yeah.
00:00:37.039 --> 00:00:37.520
Oh yeah.
00:00:37.679 --> 00:00:40.399
Little little bonnets, the girls.
00:00:41.119 --> 00:00:53.520
My Easter tradition, I I told you this, is every Easter Sunday morning I go to YouTube and I call uh Google Dolly Pardon, he's alive, and it's a live performance from her her TV show from like the 80s.
00:00:53.679 --> 00:00:53.840
Yeah.
00:00:54.000 --> 00:00:55.439
And it's an amazing song.
00:00:55.520 --> 00:00:59.439
And if you listen to it, it will definitely get your day going in the right direction.
00:00:59.840 --> 00:01:01.679
Here's a little uh clip.
00:01:32.719 --> 00:01:33.840
So that's Nelly.
00:01:34.000 --> 00:01:36.879
Uh he's alive in my um Easter tradition.
00:01:37.040 --> 00:01:38.959
Do you have any Easter traditions?
00:01:39.920 --> 00:01:49.920
I my favorite sermon of all time, and you often hear this on Good Friday or Easter, is you know, there's Friday, but Sunday is coming.
00:01:50.799 --> 00:01:59.439
You know, which universally, hopefully to everybody says, Yes, they're suffering, but you know, Sunday is coming.
00:02:00.480 --> 00:02:06.799
Um, my church, they're doing two services at um vintage Malibu because I posted this last week.
00:02:06.959 --> 00:02:10.000
The church was so crowded that there was a line at the men's room.
00:02:10.479 --> 00:02:11.039
Oh wow.
00:02:11.360 --> 00:02:14.319
So the church is exploding, obviously.
00:02:14.639 --> 00:02:15.199
Wow.
00:02:16.319 --> 00:02:16.879
That's right.
00:02:17.759 --> 00:02:22.240
They don't like to do two services because we used to a long time ago when we were in a smaller facility.
00:02:22.400 --> 00:02:25.039
You know, we're nomad, we don't have an actual building.
00:02:25.280 --> 00:02:30.000
And um everybody went to the early service, except me, of course.
00:02:30.080 --> 00:02:31.199
You know, I went to the lake one.
00:02:31.599 --> 00:02:35.520
Even like the pepperdine kids, everybody went to the early service.
00:02:35.840 --> 00:02:38.719
So they stopped having two, but now the church has just grown.
00:02:38.800 --> 00:02:42.719
So is it the same service like repeat or are they different?
00:02:43.280 --> 00:02:45.120
I don't know, I've never gone to both.
00:02:45.520 --> 00:02:46.800
I'm not that good.
00:02:47.520 --> 00:02:48.159
That's funny.
00:02:48.319 --> 00:02:58.000
So there's an Easter tradition here in Palm Springs that I just realized that uh on the um O'Donnell golf course, there's a sunrise service, and it's been going on since 1917.
00:02:58.400 --> 00:02:59.039
Oh, wow.
00:02:59.360 --> 00:03:00.240
I thought that was kind of cool.
00:03:00.319 --> 00:03:02.080
It was started by Nellie Kaufman.
00:03:02.159 --> 00:03:06.719
She was one of the city founders and uh founded The Desert Inn back in, you know, before that.
00:03:06.800 --> 00:03:08.000
But I thought that was pretty cool.
00:03:08.080 --> 00:03:10.960
I didn't realize it'd have been going on for over a hundred years.
00:03:11.280 --> 00:03:13.599
And are you gonna uh get up and go?
00:03:14.000 --> 00:03:14.960
We'll see.
00:03:17.120 --> 00:03:18.479
I take that as a no.
00:03:18.639 --> 00:03:26.240
But this is a you know, I am I am always at least five minutes late for church, so you miss one song.
00:03:26.400 --> 00:03:29.039
So never any judgment.
00:03:30.319 --> 00:03:34.000
So today we get to talk to someone who I just adore.
00:03:34.159 --> 00:03:43.120
Thank you for indulging me, Mike Morgan, who is a pastor at Beller Presbyterian, which, if you are ever in LA, it is a gorgeous church.
00:03:43.280 --> 00:03:51.599
Um, but for a long time he was a youth pastor at Malibu Press, where I went, and he was my son's youth pastor, so he has a very special place in my heart.
00:03:52.159 --> 00:03:52.479
Yes.
00:03:52.800 --> 00:03:55.039
Um Malibu Press, you're right, is a huge church.
00:03:55.120 --> 00:03:56.240
I mean, the Reagans went there.
00:03:58.800 --> 00:03:59.039
Yeah.
00:03:59.360 --> 00:04:05.280
Yeah, that that's a fancy, somewhat celebrity church, but a beautiful, beautiful spiritual place too.
00:04:05.520 --> 00:04:06.080
Yes.
00:04:06.879 --> 00:04:12.800
I think I I I went to a funeral there, but I can't remember what it was, but that's the only time I've been there.
00:04:12.879 --> 00:04:13.759
But it's a beautiful space.
00:04:14.080 --> 00:04:15.599
Yeah, it's it's a stunning church.
00:04:15.759 --> 00:04:19.199
And um, I love to go hear Mike preach.
00:04:19.360 --> 00:04:23.600
And today he has, I think, a really lovely Easter message for us.
00:04:24.240 --> 00:04:28.240
So, Mike Morgan, haven't seen you in way too long.
00:04:28.560 --> 00:04:29.199
Seriously.
00:04:29.360 --> 00:04:29.839
So long.
00:04:30.079 --> 00:04:31.120
So great to see you.
00:04:31.600 --> 00:04:35.279
Full disclosure, Mike was my son's youth pastor.
00:04:35.759 --> 00:04:43.360
And uh okay, I tend to think that my son was an angel, but you can enough time has passed that you can now tell me the truth.
00:04:43.680 --> 00:04:46.399
Oh, come on, Nash is amazing.
00:04:46.639 --> 00:04:48.800
I just can't say enough about your son.
00:04:48.959 --> 00:04:50.319
He's such a great kid.
00:04:50.480 --> 00:04:51.120
I mean, kid.
00:04:51.279 --> 00:04:52.240
He's not a kid anymore.
00:04:52.319 --> 00:04:52.879
He's a grown man.
00:04:53.759 --> 00:04:54.720
He's a married man.
00:04:55.040 --> 00:04:55.839
A married man.
00:04:56.000 --> 00:04:57.040
That just blows my mind.
00:04:57.199 --> 00:05:00.399
I can't, I can still, you know, he would hate me saying this.
00:05:00.480 --> 00:05:04.879
So I'm but I have still like throwing him in the pool, you know, like it's just this.
00:05:05.040 --> 00:05:07.120
I know I can just picture him as a teenager.
00:05:07.279 --> 00:05:07.839
He's awesome.
00:05:07.920 --> 00:05:09.439
But uh no, he's a grown man now.
00:05:09.600 --> 00:05:10.720
So he's a married man.
00:05:11.199 --> 00:05:12.319
Well, I think I miss him.
00:05:12.800 --> 00:05:16.639
What you did as a youth pastor was you made it fun.
00:05:16.800 --> 00:05:18.319
You made it an adventure.
00:05:18.480 --> 00:05:24.240
I mean, when I got confirmed, I think, you know, being Catholic, I think the priests sort of slap me not hard, but slap me.
00:05:24.399 --> 00:05:25.600
That's just what they do.
00:05:25.759 --> 00:05:29.199
You took them on a whitewater rafting trip when they were getting confirmed.
00:05:29.600 --> 00:05:31.759
Yeah, it's a little bit different of an experience.
00:05:31.920 --> 00:05:32.240
Sure.
00:05:32.399 --> 00:05:34.959
I mean, both are valuable, but yeah, it's a little bit different.
00:05:35.199 --> 00:05:38.879
I mean, to be able to work with young people is an incredible thing.
00:05:39.040 --> 00:05:43.439
You know, I think that uh we need a lot of compassionate adults in kids' lives.
00:05:43.519 --> 00:05:45.759
And I think that it's just it's such a gift.
00:05:45.920 --> 00:05:55.360
Uh the fact that you would entrust me with your son, which you might want to rethink about that, you know, in the sense of like, I don't know how he turned out okay.
00:05:55.839 --> 00:05:56.879
He turned out all right.
00:05:57.120 --> 00:05:58.720
And he got back safely, you know.
00:05:58.879 --> 00:05:59.279
That was good.
00:05:59.600 --> 00:06:00.639
You were young too.
00:06:01.279 --> 00:06:02.240
I know, that's what I'm saying.
00:06:02.399 --> 00:06:03.920
I'm like, wow, how old was I?
00:06:04.079 --> 00:06:06.720
And I took your son on a white water rafting trip.
00:06:06.800 --> 00:06:09.360
Uh that's all right.
00:06:09.839 --> 00:06:18.480
And and I I think Jason knows this, but um my son was being bar mitzvah because my husband's Jewish, and then he wanted to go to Christian camp with you.
00:06:18.560 --> 00:06:22.000
So of course we moved the bar mitzvah so he could go to Christian camp.
00:06:22.079 --> 00:06:24.639
So I've either exposed him to everything or screwed him up.
00:06:24.720 --> 00:06:27.519
I don't I don't know which I love it.
00:06:27.600 --> 00:06:32.959
It's so rich the environment that you've raised him in, you know, for him to have that perspective.
00:06:33.120 --> 00:06:34.800
And I love your family.
00:06:34.959 --> 00:06:36.480
I love uh what you're doing here.
00:06:36.560 --> 00:06:37.279
I love this podcast.
00:06:37.360 --> 00:06:37.759
This is great.
00:06:38.000 --> 00:06:38.480
Oh, thank you.
00:06:38.720 --> 00:06:41.279
It must be rewarding to to see kids grow.
00:06:41.360 --> 00:06:45.759
Because you you probably get them, what, 13, 14, and you see them all the way through like high school.
00:06:45.839 --> 00:06:51.600
And that must that growth period, that's a huge growth period for people, and I think it's must be very rewarding for you.
00:06:51.920 --> 00:06:52.560
Yeah, it is.
00:06:52.639 --> 00:06:55.040
It's a massive, uh, very important time, right?
00:06:55.120 --> 00:06:56.000
I mean, could you imagine?
00:06:56.079 --> 00:07:05.360
I I r being reminded of myself when I was 13 years old, uh, how insecure I was, how awkward I was, how self-conscious I was, you know.
00:07:05.519 --> 00:07:08.720
And you're forming your identity, you're forming like, who am I in the world?
00:07:08.879 --> 00:07:11.839
Do people the big question is like, do people like me?
00:07:11.920 --> 00:07:19.360
Uh it's, you know, and to be able to say to somebody, I mean, it's easy for Nash, I can just look at him and go, oh my gosh, who doesn't like you?
00:07:19.519 --> 00:07:21.360
He's just such a likable guy.
00:07:21.600 --> 00:07:28.560
But um, you know, for kids are coming with that question and they're not getting that answered, or they're getting an answer in a lot of different ways.
00:07:28.720 --> 00:07:37.040
And so for uh compassionate adults to be able to see young people and say, man, not only do I love you, I like you.
00:07:37.199 --> 00:07:38.000
I like who you are.
00:07:38.160 --> 00:07:39.680
I want to, you know, spend time with you.
00:07:39.759 --> 00:07:40.399
I want to know you.
00:07:40.560 --> 00:07:44.959
I want to ask you questions and hear your what are you thinking about these days?
00:07:45.040 --> 00:07:46.480
Like, what are you processing?
00:07:46.560 --> 00:07:51.279
Uh, to be able to sit with people, young people specifically, and give them space for that.
00:07:51.519 --> 00:07:57.680
Um, you know, and then they they open up, you know, and so it's just an important time of life.
00:07:57.759 --> 00:08:00.800
Uh I only get to see them for a small period of time from that.
00:08:00.959 --> 00:08:04.639
It does, you know, four years or six years if I'm working with them in middle school.
00:08:04.720 --> 00:08:12.720
Uh, but then I'm so curious about what's going on college and post-college and married life, and uh it's a pretty wild experience.
00:08:12.959 --> 00:08:13.600
Yeah.
00:08:14.240 --> 00:08:20.399
You know, um, just hearing you say the word love, I've been listening to the series that you're doing on the you Bible version.
00:08:20.480 --> 00:08:24.639
By the way, if anybody needs a free Bible app, it is amazing.
00:08:24.879 --> 00:08:25.040
Yeah.
00:08:25.360 --> 00:08:31.120
And you speak so beautifully uh about love, but I feel like we're in a moment where everybody hates each other.
00:08:33.120 --> 00:08:33.840
I laugh.
00:08:33.919 --> 00:08:36.399
That's not yes, you're it does feel that way, doesn't it?
00:08:36.480 --> 00:08:36.799
Yeah.
00:08:37.200 --> 00:08:37.919
Sometimes.
00:08:38.240 --> 00:08:38.559
Yeah.
00:08:38.799 --> 00:08:50.159
Well, it is one of those things where uh, you know, we love people who uh look like us and think like us and act like us and believe the same things we believe, and um that's easy, you know.
00:08:50.320 --> 00:08:51.279
That's not real.
00:08:51.519 --> 00:09:05.200
Um even what kind of Jesus kind of love is, you know, if you think about how God loves us, uh it's we we didn't look and think and act and believe all those things, and yet God still demonstrated his love towards us.
00:09:05.440 --> 00:09:09.200
So uh to be the church, I think, in this season is vital.
00:09:09.360 --> 00:09:15.200
We need uh people really demonstrating what does love look like with people that are different than me.
00:09:15.600 --> 00:09:16.960
People that don't agree with me.
00:09:17.360 --> 00:09:20.720
Easy to say, uh really hard to live out.
00:09:23.200 --> 00:09:29.440
I saw something that you said um about we're not present with each other anymore.
00:09:29.600 --> 00:09:36.960
I don't know if it's because we're on our phones or we're just distracted, but that that is a source of love, just really being present.
00:09:38.240 --> 00:09:38.720
Absolutely.
00:09:38.799 --> 00:09:43.360
I mean, think the gift, the gift of presence, the gift of listening.
00:09:43.919 --> 00:09:46.720
Uh listening not to win an argument.
00:09:47.200 --> 00:09:55.759
Uh you know, if we could learn to listen well uh and not listen to figure out how I'm gonna respond to whatever it is you're saying.
00:09:56.159 --> 00:10:05.919
Uh to give that gift of space and time and presence, um, really seeking to understand rather than to be understood.
00:10:06.559 --> 00:10:10.080
Uh listening is such a gift right now.
00:10:10.159 --> 00:10:15.759
It cannot be understated how important it is, and yet how seldom we do it.
00:10:15.919 --> 00:10:27.679
It's it's so hard to listen to someone whom you might disagree with and not get flooded, not get hooked, not want to react and respond and prove you're right, and all those things, you know.
00:10:27.759 --> 00:10:29.039
Uh I could be the only one.
00:10:29.200 --> 00:10:30.480
Am I the only one that has that experience?
00:10:30.639 --> 00:10:33.759
I think this is like a common thing, right?
00:10:34.320 --> 00:10:36.960
And so that that is such a gift.
00:10:37.120 --> 00:10:40.799
And to walk away feeling known.
00:10:41.600 --> 00:10:42.639
What a beautiful thing.
00:10:42.799 --> 00:10:44.320
I think that that's a beautiful thing.
00:10:44.480 --> 00:10:44.879
Yeah.
00:10:45.120 --> 00:10:48.080
What a needed thing in our time right now, in our culture, for sure.
00:10:48.480 --> 00:10:52.559
That's what I love about this podcast is doing listening to people and learning things.
00:10:52.639 --> 00:10:56.799
And you know, every week I take away something different from from someone new I met.
00:10:56.960 --> 00:11:02.159
You're a second Presbyterian minister, but you have very different We're talking about very different things.
00:11:02.879 --> 00:11:04.559
Oh, that's fun.
00:11:04.879 --> 00:11:10.080
I think other than when I'm interviewing somebody, so this is good listening experience for me.
00:11:10.240 --> 00:11:12.320
I think I kind of do what you just said.
00:11:12.399 --> 00:11:16.159
I I listen with it with a thought of what's my response.
00:11:16.320 --> 00:11:19.759
Even when I'm and I know now you're working with adults, not kids so much.
00:11:20.000 --> 00:11:22.000
And I I'm sure you're doing grief counseling.
00:11:22.080 --> 00:11:30.480
And I I just I probably need to learn how to really listen without thinking of what I'm gonna say next.
00:11:31.279 --> 00:11:43.840
And as you're thinking about what you're gonna say, uh, if you are thinking about what you're gonna say, uh there's that was that um skill of the yes and, you know, a lot of us respond with a no but, you know.
00:11:43.919 --> 00:11:48.799
And so this is like Hollywood acting kind of improv training or something.
00:11:48.960 --> 00:11:53.360
But I think it's such an important skill to learn to be able to say yes and to somebody.
00:11:53.519 --> 00:12:11.840
And so if you're listening for agreement and you're listening to contribute in a positive way to the conversation, as opposed to looking to refute and to pick apart and to dismantle um someone's position, um, I think that that, you know, there's a very different end result that can come from that.
00:12:12.000 --> 00:12:18.639
And I think the both of you are you're doing that every single time you interview somebody, you're looking and listening and yes anding.
00:12:18.720 --> 00:12:30.080
Uh, what a great skill for us to be able to start to live into as a people, uh, not just for interviews, but just to how can I, is there anything in this that I can say yes to?
00:12:31.360 --> 00:12:35.600
And then how can I contribute in a positive way to the rest of the conversation?
00:12:35.840 --> 00:12:37.919
I think that would be a great, great thing.
00:12:38.240 --> 00:12:38.720
Yeah.
00:12:38.879 --> 00:12:42.240
Um, man, there's a lot there, but I think that is a form of love, isn't it?
00:12:42.320 --> 00:12:45.759
Uh just to be able to offer compassionate space.
00:12:46.080 --> 00:12:54.000
Um when you do get hooked, because you will, when you do get flooded, because you will, uh, to not react out of that.
00:12:54.159 --> 00:12:58.480
Uh we've done series at our church talking about the first response.
00:12:58.639 --> 00:13:01.279
What's our first response when you're angry?
00:13:01.519 --> 00:13:04.399
You know, what's your first response when you feel overwhelmed?
00:13:04.559 --> 00:13:07.519
What's your first response uh when you've been wronged?
00:13:07.679 --> 00:13:09.279
You know, all those things.
00:13:09.600 --> 00:13:14.879
And uh oftentimes it's like, I can tell you what my first response is, you know, I want to fight.
00:13:15.279 --> 00:13:16.960
Or I want to flee.
00:13:17.120 --> 00:13:18.559
I just want to abandon the relationship.
00:13:18.639 --> 00:13:19.279
I want to be out.
00:13:19.360 --> 00:13:20.879
I want to leave the table.
00:13:21.120 --> 00:13:32.320
And to offer that way of saying, I'm staying at the table, I'm listening deeply, I'm holding my reaction, you know, as uh people of faith.
00:13:32.480 --> 00:13:34.480
We're gonna go to God in prayer.
00:13:34.639 --> 00:13:40.480
And uh, even in the moment, like, oh my gosh, Lord, you know how I want to respond right now.
00:13:40.639 --> 00:13:42.000
Please hold my tongue.
00:13:42.240 --> 00:13:43.360
Uh, you know?
00:13:43.840 --> 00:13:47.200
And then uh to be able to respond in love.
00:13:47.279 --> 00:13:52.159
I that again is something that the Holy Spirit can strengthen us in.
00:13:52.480 --> 00:13:57.759
Uh it's not something that is my natural response, uh, unfortunately.
00:13:57.840 --> 00:14:01.919
Uh, but the good news is that it doesn't have to be that God's there to help me with that.
00:14:02.000 --> 00:14:04.399
So I think it's a gift for sure.
00:14:05.679 --> 00:14:12.080
I think sometimes I always want to be helpful, and then maybe it's not helpful to be trying so hard to be helpful.
00:14:12.879 --> 00:14:13.759
Does that make sense?
00:14:14.240 --> 00:14:14.639
Well, yeah.
00:14:14.799 --> 00:14:17.200
Tell me more about what when you think about being helpful.
00:14:17.360 --> 00:14:19.279
You tell me more about what you're saying there.
00:14:19.759 --> 00:14:25.200
Well, I think what I probably need to do is ask the Holy Spirit for a little advice because I want to give advice.
00:14:25.279 --> 00:14:27.919
I want I want to make this person feel better.
00:14:28.080 --> 00:14:29.759
Yeah, I want to help solve the problem.
00:14:29.919 --> 00:14:32.960
And maybe by jumping in, I'm I'm not really helping.
00:14:33.360 --> 00:14:34.159
That's really good.
00:14:34.320 --> 00:14:36.720
You know, I I appreciate you saying that, Dorothy.
00:14:36.879 --> 00:14:38.480
I am guilty of that.
00:14:38.559 --> 00:14:42.000
Uh at least that's what my wife would say that I'm guilty of it for sure.
00:14:42.240 --> 00:14:44.480
Because I, you know, she'll share something with me.
00:14:44.720 --> 00:14:46.799
She's like, I'm not asking you to fix it.
00:14:47.039 --> 00:14:49.039
I'm not asking you to solve it.
00:14:49.279 --> 00:14:50.639
I just want you to listen.
00:14:50.720 --> 00:14:54.960
And I'm like, oh, but I'm really good at trying to fix stuff.
00:14:55.200 --> 00:14:56.480
Let me fix it.
00:14:56.720 --> 00:14:59.840
Uh but that's not necessarily demonstrating love.
00:15:00.000 --> 00:15:02.480
I think it is, you know, oh, look, I fixed it for you.
00:15:02.559 --> 00:15:03.279
Therefore, I love you.
00:15:03.440 --> 00:15:10.080
She's like, no, just listen to me and be present with me and hold the space with me, you know.
00:15:10.240 --> 00:15:11.600
So you're not alone.
00:15:11.759 --> 00:15:14.960
Uh I'm definitely with you in that for sure.
00:15:15.519 --> 00:15:19.279
Okay, your wife, who A, has the best hair in all of LA, which is saying something.
00:15:19.919 --> 00:15:20.639
Thank you for that.
00:15:20.720 --> 00:15:20.960
Yes.
00:15:21.120 --> 00:15:22.159
She was beautiful.
00:15:22.879 --> 00:15:24.080
Such a gorgeous woman.
00:15:24.320 --> 00:15:28.960
And also on her way, is she is she graduating?
00:15:29.120 --> 00:15:36.080
Is she Well, yeah, she's graduated from seminary and she's under uh the process right now of ordination.
00:15:36.240 --> 00:15:40.399
And so within our tradition, there's a long process.
00:15:40.639 --> 00:15:45.759
And uh so she's undergoing that, but she's under care of our session and just discerning.
00:15:46.000 --> 00:15:47.120
God, what do you have for me?
00:15:47.200 --> 00:15:55.120
You know, she's a really talented preacher, she's uh wonderful counselor, um, meeting with people, talk about holding space for people.
00:15:55.360 --> 00:15:57.759
Oh my gosh, she's incredible in that way.
00:15:57.919 --> 00:16:01.039
Uh, she's a riot, she loves to have fun.
00:16:01.200 --> 00:16:04.720
Uh, you know, she would love to be uh with the two of you.
00:16:04.879 --> 00:16:06.480
She likes to be on the dance floor.
00:16:06.720 --> 00:16:10.559
People, when when I officiate a wedding, they don't know what to do with us.
00:16:10.720 --> 00:16:12.639
They really have no clue what to do with us.
00:16:12.799 --> 00:16:17.759
Because, you know, like some people hire people to get on the dance floor to start the party.
00:16:17.919 --> 00:16:19.120
They don't need to with us.
00:16:19.200 --> 00:16:21.600
They're like, oh, didn't you just officiate the wedding?
00:16:21.679 --> 00:16:22.879
I'm like, yeah, we're dancing.
00:16:22.960 --> 00:16:23.919
Like this, let's go.
00:16:24.080 --> 00:16:24.799
This is fun.
00:16:24.960 --> 00:16:28.399
Like, so she and I um we have a riot.
00:16:28.480 --> 00:16:30.159
We just are have so much fun together.
00:16:30.320 --> 00:16:35.600
But yeah, she's incredible, beautiful, talented, smart, um, all the things, yeah.
00:16:36.080 --> 00:16:37.919
Are you guys gonna work together?
00:16:38.240 --> 00:16:39.279
Well, we do currently.
00:16:39.440 --> 00:16:41.840
So we currently serve in the same community.
00:16:42.000 --> 00:16:53.200
Uh, and yeah, we could we just, you know, it's one of those one plus one equals three things uh where we and we don't want to serve in two different communities, you know.
00:16:53.519 --> 00:16:59.120
That'd be hard to put roots down if you're both kind of investing in two different communities.
00:16:59.440 --> 00:17:05.279
So, you know, that's one of the gifts that we have right now in the community that we serve in, is that we get to do this together.
00:17:05.440 --> 00:17:08.559
Uh, we're in very different environments oftentimes, right?
00:17:08.720 --> 00:17:18.240
Um there's wisdom in that when a husband and wife are working in the same uh context, uh, to have like no one's reporting to each other, you know, those kinds of things.
00:17:18.400 --> 00:17:23.759
Um, but man, we really enjoy ministry and what you're doing right now, this is our life.
00:17:23.839 --> 00:17:29.119
Like we come home and we're like, we should just record this because we are always talking about faith.
00:17:29.279 --> 00:17:32.400
We're always talking about life and how those two things intersect.
00:17:32.480 --> 00:17:38.480
And um so yeah, to be able to do ministry with my wife is just incredible.
00:17:38.559 --> 00:17:42.480
Uh, as she's a preacher, as she's a teacher, as she's a leader.
00:17:42.640 --> 00:17:45.920
Um, to be able to serve alongside her is a huge gift.
00:17:46.079 --> 00:17:46.240
Yeah.
00:17:47.119 --> 00:17:49.680
Do you do uh premarital counseling together?
00:17:50.000 --> 00:17:53.599
Uh, you know, we have done a little bit of that in the past.
00:17:53.759 --> 00:18:00.400
Uh, like we'll maybe facilitate a panel conversation or something like that in our premarital counseling.
00:18:00.559 --> 00:18:03.359
Uh typically we do it individually.
00:18:03.519 --> 00:18:08.240
Um, but yeah, you know, and we do post-marital counseling together too, you know?
00:18:08.480 --> 00:18:13.359
It's like you do the premarital, but then you have your first year and you're like, okay, come on back.
00:18:14.480 --> 00:18:20.640
Uh what's the biggest, what's the most important piece of uh advice or guidance do you offer a couple?
00:18:21.119 --> 00:18:23.200
Oh my goodness, Jason, what a great question.
00:18:23.359 --> 00:18:25.519
Uh it's a really great question.
00:18:25.759 --> 00:18:28.160
Most important piece of advice.
00:18:28.400 --> 00:18:33.680
Uh, you know, you're you're not marrying the person to change the person, I think is one of them.
00:18:33.839 --> 00:18:45.440
You know, uh yeah, you are saying yes to the person for who they are today, not who they're going to be, knowing that we all change and we all grow and all those things.
00:18:45.519 --> 00:18:51.920
Uh, but it's not yes uh but or yes when, uh it's yes now.
00:18:52.319 --> 00:18:54.799
And we're gonna, oh my goodness.
00:18:55.119 --> 00:18:55.440
Right?
00:18:55.920 --> 00:19:02.559
We're all married, so we know like the first year you're like, wait a minute, you do what?
00:19:02.640 --> 00:19:07.519
And you don't load the dishwasher how, and you don't push your drawers in all the way.
00:19:07.680 --> 00:19:08.880
Like, what is going on?
00:19:09.039 --> 00:19:09.920
Why is this?
00:19:10.160 --> 00:19:15.599
Um, that sh sheds a little bit of light into my uh idiosyncrasies.
00:19:15.680 --> 00:19:20.640
But uh I think that those kinds of things are wow, I didn't know this about you.
00:19:20.880 --> 00:19:24.160
Instead of being like, oh my gosh, I didn't know this.
00:19:24.400 --> 00:19:31.039
It's like, how do we have an attitude of discovery and appreciation and wanting to learn?
00:19:31.200 --> 00:19:38.480
I can't say that I live this out all the time, but I want to, I want to continue to discover who my spouse is, you know.
00:19:38.640 --> 00:19:44.400
Uh so never lose sight of that is something that's really important uh in marriage.
00:19:44.640 --> 00:19:48.880
Now, that's not my um, you know, spiritual advice that I would give.
00:19:49.039 --> 00:19:52.319
I think that's just uh the relational advice that I would give.
00:19:52.480 --> 00:19:58.079
Uh, and you know, that there's the spiritual side of things is you're not in this alone.
00:19:58.400 --> 00:20:01.519
And so you don't have to live as though you're alone.
00:20:01.839 --> 00:20:05.680
You're also not going to the person saying, Do you love me?
00:20:05.920 --> 00:20:08.880
And you're not looking for that answer in that person.
00:20:09.039 --> 00:20:15.759
You are going to that person as one who's already loved, and that you can then bring that love to that person.
00:20:16.160 --> 00:20:18.160
If you're constantly asking, Am I lovable?
00:20:18.240 --> 00:20:18.799
Am I lovable?
00:20:18.880 --> 00:20:19.359
Do you love me?
00:20:19.519 --> 00:20:20.319
Do you love me?
00:20:20.480 --> 00:20:28.240
Uh that's you're then going to be trying to get that from the person as opposed to infusing that love into the relationship.
00:20:30.960 --> 00:20:36.559
I saw something you said about um we can't grow without a foundation.
00:20:38.319 --> 00:20:39.839
Like everything needs a foundation.
00:20:39.920 --> 00:20:43.519
And I heard you say, and I thought this was so beautiful, that the nails are really gratitude.
00:20:43.839 --> 00:20:47.839
Yeah, there's a there's a foundation from which we grow from.
00:20:48.000 --> 00:20:50.559
And so we've all had different foundations.
00:20:50.720 --> 00:20:58.480
So, Jason, you know, uh, you have come from a Baptist background, and that was a foundation that was laid for you.
00:20:58.640 --> 00:21:03.359
And I'm sure that there's things within that foundation that you could look back and say, I appreciate that.
00:21:03.680 --> 00:21:08.160
And I'm sure there's some things from that foundation you'd say, I might change that, you know.
00:21:08.319 --> 00:21:12.880
Um, and you have, you've made some different decisions, you're part of a new community, you know.
00:21:12.960 --> 00:21:16.160
So those are all things that you've you have a foundation.
00:21:16.240 --> 00:21:18.799
So we can say we we are grateful for that foundation.
00:21:18.960 --> 00:21:21.599
I think it's important from where we start.
00:21:21.920 --> 00:21:35.200
So, for example, my this devotional that I have uh through you version, the Bible app, uh, if you don't, like you said, if you don't have the Bible app, uh it's got a billion downloads, like one billion downloads, unique, which is crazy.
00:21:35.519 --> 00:21:40.319
But um the compelled by love is the devotional.
00:21:40.480 --> 00:21:45.359
And the title's intentional because that's the foundation from which everything comes from.
00:21:45.680 --> 00:21:47.839
Uh think about your faith journey.
00:21:48.000 --> 00:21:50.000
If you're uh in Lent, right?
00:21:50.079 --> 00:21:51.279
We're in a season of Lent.
00:21:51.359 --> 00:21:59.759
Uh if we're refraining from chocolate or uh alcohol or from whatever it is, so that we can get.
00:22:00.160 --> 00:22:10.880
God's approval in our life, then we are trying to, we are compelled not by God's love, we're compelled to try to earn God's love.
00:22:11.119 --> 00:22:12.000
Does that make sense?
00:22:12.160 --> 00:22:18.160
So the foundation of, am I love by God is an extremely important foundation to start from.
00:22:18.319 --> 00:22:29.440
And if we don't get that right, then we're always going to be striving and fighting and trying to demonstrate and prove that we're lovable and that God, you know, do you love me?
00:22:29.519 --> 00:22:30.880
And asking that question all the time.
00:22:30.960 --> 00:22:34.319
And God's like, hey, just rest.
00:22:35.920 --> 00:22:38.559
Rest in the fact that I'm that I love you.
00:22:38.720 --> 00:22:47.759
And then from that place, live your life from a place of being loved, that that foundation of being loved and see what comes from that, right?
00:22:47.920 --> 00:23:00.319
What grows out of that is vastly different than what grows from a place of fear or of worry or of anxiety or um of constantly being like, is God gonna zap me?
00:23:00.400 --> 00:23:02.480
I think he's just angry at me all the time.
00:23:03.039 --> 00:23:06.240
Vastly different things grow from that foundation.
00:23:06.400 --> 00:23:09.759
Um so that's what I was trying to communicate in that devotional.
00:23:12.400 --> 00:23:15.119
Boy, how do you get people to just settle into that?
00:23:15.359 --> 00:23:19.039
I guess again, it's presence if they're really listening and taking it in.
00:23:19.839 --> 00:23:20.079
Yeah.
00:23:20.240 --> 00:23:20.480
Yeah.
00:23:20.640 --> 00:23:28.240
How do you you know it's a rewiring, it's uh receiving um before we do anything.
00:23:30.000 --> 00:23:33.440
God, uh the the creator of the universe loves me?
00:23:33.599 --> 00:23:40.559
Like um that's kind of been the human question for a long time.
00:23:41.440 --> 00:23:46.480
And we've been looking for that answer in in a lot of different ways.
00:23:47.680 --> 00:23:54.000
And that's where I think you know, yeah, Jesus comes into play and says, Look, I really want you to know something.
00:23:54.400 --> 00:23:56.799
That question you've been asking all along.
00:23:56.960 --> 00:24:01.759
I I really want you to walk away, not wondering anymore whether or not God loves you.
00:24:01.920 --> 00:24:02.640
I love you.
00:24:02.880 --> 00:24:07.200
Now how do you experience that love?
00:24:07.440 --> 00:24:09.039
I think that comes through people.
00:24:09.200 --> 00:24:21.839
I think that comes through community, I think that comes through what we've talked about already in this of demonstrating presence and listening, but not just to say, oh my gosh, I feel loved by Dorothy.
00:24:22.000 --> 00:24:25.039
Uh I feel loved by God through Dorothy.
00:24:25.279 --> 00:24:29.519
God is using Dorothy to demonstrate God's love towards me.
00:24:29.680 --> 00:24:30.640
And I receive that.
00:24:30.799 --> 00:24:33.200
I receive it from Dorothy, but I also receive it from God.
00:24:33.359 --> 00:24:38.640
I'm not gonna discredit that and dismiss that as it's only a human experience.
00:24:38.880 --> 00:24:43.920
No, God has graced me with the community that I'm in.
00:24:44.079 --> 00:24:49.440
And so the love that I receive from that community, uh I receive as the love of God in my life.
00:24:49.599 --> 00:24:50.319
Um, yeah.
00:24:50.400 --> 00:24:54.720
So those are some of the things that are a shift, right?
00:24:54.799 --> 00:24:57.119
It's a it's a shift in thinking.
00:24:57.839 --> 00:24:58.240
Yeah.
00:24:58.400 --> 00:25:00.240
I heard that and I felt that.
00:25:02.480 --> 00:25:03.279
Well beautiful.
00:25:03.599 --> 00:25:05.119
Did you grow up in Southern California?
00:25:05.359 --> 00:25:06.160
I did, yeah.
00:25:06.319 --> 00:25:07.839
I grew up in San Diego.
00:25:07.920 --> 00:25:09.680
I'm now living in Los Angeles.
00:25:09.839 --> 00:25:15.200
Um and like you guys, I'm well, I'm a kaleidoscope of Christianity, is how I like to say it.
00:25:15.680 --> 00:25:21.599
Um I used to refer to myself as a Christian mutt, but I felt like that was derogatory or something.
00:25:21.759 --> 00:25:26.400
Uh but you know, the Baptist, I'm Baptist General Conference, so that was my upbringing.
00:25:26.640 --> 00:25:30.559
Wesleyan, uh non-denominational four square influences.
00:25:30.640 --> 00:25:32.640
And you're like, how did you become a Presbyterian?
00:25:35.279 --> 00:25:38.000
Oh anyway, yeah, it's been a journey.
00:25:38.160 --> 00:25:40.640
Um, but uh now where are you, Jason?
00:25:40.720 --> 00:25:42.240
Right now, you're in Tennessee, is that right?
00:25:42.400 --> 00:25:43.440
No, I'm in Palm Springs.
00:25:44.319 --> 00:25:45.359
Oh, okay, great.
00:25:45.599 --> 00:25:47.680
Now, did you where where were you raised?
00:25:48.000 --> 00:25:49.599
In Arkansas, Southern Baptist.
00:25:49.759 --> 00:25:53.279
And then I went to Congregational Church, UCC, in my youth.
00:25:53.759 --> 00:25:53.920
Okay.
00:25:54.160 --> 00:25:57.599
And once my career got started, I kind of fell away from it.
00:25:57.759 --> 00:25:59.039
But yeah.
00:25:59.359 --> 00:26:01.920
Yeah, well, and then Dorothy, you were raised Catholic.
00:26:02.000 --> 00:26:10.799
You and you've been to a Presbyterian church and now you're vintage and so we're all um mutt in a nice way.
00:26:11.119 --> 00:26:12.079
Kaleidoscopes.
00:26:12.400 --> 00:26:14.480
Kaleidoscope of Christian Christianity.
00:26:14.640 --> 00:26:15.200
I love it.
00:26:15.440 --> 00:26:17.839
Well, tell us a little bit about your call to the ministry.
00:26:18.319 --> 00:26:22.720
Yeah, you know, uh it's it's been an interesting journey in that call.
00:26:22.960 --> 00:26:27.519
Uh, you know, some people are just like, I know right away I'm gonna be a pastor.
00:26:27.759 --> 00:26:33.359
Uh I think my discernment was through, again, community and listening.
00:26:33.519 --> 00:26:47.119
Uh, you know, my family, um, my dad's been in real estate and in business, and my uh brother's in finance, and my other brother's in real estate, my sister's on her own, uh, her her own company and her own salon and all the stuff.
00:26:47.279 --> 00:26:49.519
And I just was like, I guess I'm supposed to do business.
00:26:49.680 --> 00:26:50.960
Like my family's in business.
00:26:51.119 --> 00:26:52.400
My mom's a teacher.
00:26:52.480 --> 00:26:57.839
Uh, so that might explain you know how I'm now a teacher in a different context.
00:26:58.000 --> 00:27:00.240
But initially I was like, I gotta do business.
00:27:00.400 --> 00:27:15.279
Um, but just over the journey, you know, having listening to different people, I would serve in different contexts, and people would see things in me and say, Mike, you're gonna either you're gonna take my job, you're gonna be the next youth pastor, or you need to really consider being a pastor.
00:27:15.359 --> 00:27:18.160
And I'm like, I don't know about that, you know?
00:27:18.720 --> 00:27:28.720
So um, you know, I think there was a season in my life where I experienced my first real uh solid call was I was on crutches.
00:27:29.039 --> 00:27:32.160
Um, I'm at uh comedy sports in Los Angeles.
00:27:32.319 --> 00:27:33.680
You guys know comedy sports?
00:27:33.759 --> 00:27:37.599
Uh it's like this improv place, uh, and it's super fun.
00:27:37.680 --> 00:27:43.920
But I'm there on a Friday night and it was some friends, and this old youth pastor who lived in San Diego.
00:27:44.079 --> 00:27:46.079
I run into him at Comedy Sports in Los Angeles.
00:27:46.160 --> 00:27:48.160
I'm like, Spike, because that's that's how I know him.
00:27:48.319 --> 00:27:49.279
I don't know his name.
00:27:49.440 --> 00:27:51.359
I honestly think it's Brian.
00:27:51.440 --> 00:27:52.480
I could be wrong.
00:27:52.720 --> 00:27:54.160
I just know him as Spike.
00:27:54.319 --> 00:27:56.480
And he he was like, Mike, what are you doing here?
00:27:56.720 --> 00:28:02.319
Long story short, he says, I just had you just came into my mind just yesterday, you know.
00:28:02.480 --> 00:28:04.400
Have you ever thought about going into ministry?
00:28:04.559 --> 00:28:06.240
I have an opportunity for you.
00:28:06.319 --> 00:28:12.720
And I was like, okay, I'm listening, you know, and that from that place I really started uh entering into ministry.
00:28:12.880 --> 00:28:15.920
Uh I have taught in like a private Christian school before.
00:28:16.079 --> 00:28:24.880
I did apply my undergraduate degree in business uh in it for a season, but God just kept pulling me back into ministry uh in the church.
00:28:25.119 --> 00:28:29.759
Now I say ministry in the church on purpose because I think ministry goes well beyond the church.
00:28:29.839 --> 00:28:41.599
I think we all are ministers, we all have our ministry, uh, whether whatever context it is, um, whatever environment you find yourself in, uh, but mine specifically was serving within the church.
00:28:41.759 --> 00:29:04.240
And uh being a pastor in the Presbyterian church, um, you know, that was a calling that just in looking back at my life and how uh God has formed me and the things that um some of my spiritual gifts, the things I'm passionate about, some of my abilities, all those things, my experiences, they all shaped me.
00:29:04.559 --> 00:29:15.680
And uh I just I was like, wow, when I saw the opportunity to be initially a congregational care pastor, like I wanted to be with people and sit with people, show up at the bedsides, you know, in the hospital or at homes.
00:29:15.759 --> 00:29:18.559
And when I saw that, it just mapped with my story.
00:29:18.640 --> 00:29:22.400
And I was like, okay, I guess that's I should apply for that one.
00:29:22.480 --> 00:29:24.079
And uh and here I am.
00:29:24.240 --> 00:29:27.279
So yeah, I don't know if that was a long-winded answer, but those are.
00:29:27.440 --> 00:29:30.799
No, God obviously found you where you were.
00:29:31.119 --> 00:29:31.680
Yeah.
00:29:32.720 --> 00:29:34.960
And it pulled me along in the journey, you know.
00:29:35.039 --> 00:29:47.200
It was like it took a little while to figure out, and I'm still in that discernment process of, you know, I I feel called uh to ministry, and I'm grateful to be able to serve the larger church.
00:29:47.519 --> 00:29:57.039
And I'm called to help people like you uh to minister in your context that you find yourselves in, because I think that the work that you're doing is equally as important.
00:29:57.519 --> 00:30:04.319
And um so again, I really believe in the priesthood of all believers and uh that everyone has a ministry.
00:30:04.640 --> 00:30:17.680
Um, what an opportunity for us to be the church uh wherever we find ourselves, uh, because that really um it's it's you know the Christian cliche, the blessed to be a blessing kind of idea.
00:30:18.240 --> 00:30:19.599
It's more than a cliche.
00:30:19.839 --> 00:30:36.880
It's like, no, really, we can make our environments uh more whole and and more lovely and um more welcoming and more honest and safer spaces, like all those things, you know, uh that we get to be the church in those ways.
00:30:37.119 --> 00:30:38.319
So yeah.
00:30:38.559 --> 00:30:39.759
So how did you get your call?
00:30:39.839 --> 00:30:40.720
No, I'm just kidding.
00:30:43.279 --> 00:30:46.480
This podcast was Jason's idea, so I give him full credit.
00:30:46.799 --> 00:30:47.200
That's good.
00:30:47.359 --> 00:30:48.000
I don't know.
00:30:49.920 --> 00:30:51.359
He's like, I don't know why.
00:30:51.440 --> 00:30:53.039
Uh I don't know about this.
00:30:54.000 --> 00:30:57.039
Well, it's a lot of work, so now he's like, I don't know why.
00:30:59.839 --> 00:31:02.559
Hey, so um what's your Easter message?
00:31:02.720 --> 00:31:04.720
I'd be with this off to ask you that.
00:31:05.119 --> 00:31:05.839
Yeah, that's great.
00:31:06.079 --> 00:31:20.559
Well, Easter, one of the things that I love about Easter, there's a lot um that I love about Easter, but one of the things that really comes to mind when you ask that question uh is how Jesus presents himself post-resurrection to Mary.
00:31:20.799 --> 00:31:27.200
Now, even as I tell this story, I can hear my wife in the back of my head, uh, she's saying, That's my story.
00:31:27.440 --> 00:31:37.279
So uh I give her credit for this uh in a lot of ways, but we both really love this moment where Jesus reveals himself to Mary after he's resurrected.
00:31:37.519 --> 00:31:40.480
And um she doesn't recognize him.
00:31:40.720 --> 00:31:45.759
She sees this guy in this garden and is like, Have you seen this Jesus guy?
00:31:45.920 --> 00:31:50.319
Um and she mistakes him as a gardener.
00:31:50.480 --> 00:31:52.559
And like, I think that's not a small detail.
00:31:52.640 --> 00:31:54.640
I think that's deeply theological.
00:31:55.200 --> 00:32:00.000
Because if you remember back in Genesis where God gets God's hands dirty, right?
00:32:00.240 --> 00:32:09.200
God is like the original gardener, God's got his hands in the dirt, forming and shaping and cultivating and creating, right?
00:32:09.359 --> 00:32:18.160
And so we have this God who um is again participating in this gardening moment.
00:32:18.640 --> 00:32:23.200
Um, it feels like a full circle moment for me.
00:32:23.759 --> 00:32:29.839
That this this gardener God reveals himself again in post-resurrection as a gardener.
00:32:29.920 --> 00:32:33.920
And yet this time uh Jesus is standing over the earth.
00:32:34.079 --> 00:32:37.440
He's not uh buried by it, he's not defeated by it.
00:32:37.599 --> 00:32:40.000
No, but he's cultivating something new.
00:32:40.240 --> 00:32:44.160
He's uh he's bringing about this newness of life.
00:32:44.319 --> 00:32:44.960
And I love this.
00:32:45.039 --> 00:32:49.839
I love that it reminds us that the under the earth isn't our final destination, right?
00:32:50.000 --> 00:32:51.759
That that's not the final resting place.
00:32:51.920 --> 00:32:54.000
The grave is not the end of the story.
00:32:54.160 --> 00:32:55.839
Death doesn't have the final word.
00:32:56.240 --> 00:33:04.000
Um, Jesus doesn't just rise from the garden, but he rises as the gardener.
00:33:04.240 --> 00:33:04.400
Wow.
00:33:04.559 --> 00:33:09.039
And he continues to cultivate this resurrection life in us.
00:33:09.200 --> 00:33:21.599
That he wants us to have life, to continue for that life to flourish and to grow, uh, and not just end, but to continue on um for all eternity, which is, I think, a beautiful thing.
00:33:21.759 --> 00:33:25.920
Uh so that's one of the thoughts that I reflect on this Easter with y'all.
00:33:26.400 --> 00:33:27.200
I love that.
00:33:27.440 --> 00:33:28.880
Tell Rebecca that's a good one.
00:33:29.119 --> 00:33:30.240
I know, right?
00:33:32.079 --> 00:33:34.160
Oh, that's so good.
00:33:34.319 --> 00:33:36.240
She will appreciate that you said that.
00:33:36.799 --> 00:33:40.240
And and you might have seen David go up the stairs before because he just came in.
00:33:41.039 --> 00:33:41.599
Is David here?
00:33:41.839 --> 00:33:43.119
Um my gosh.
00:33:43.279 --> 00:33:44.240
Tell him I said hi.
00:33:44.400 --> 00:33:45.119
Oh my goodness.
00:33:45.200 --> 00:33:47.119
You guys are so generous.
00:33:47.359 --> 00:33:49.200
I I have such fond memories.
00:33:49.359 --> 00:34:01.119
I remember being, like I said earlier, in your pool with uh Nash, and like, gosh, she's gonna hate that I tell this story, but like throwing them off your shoulders, you know, like that's what I think is like holding and launching them.
00:34:01.359 --> 00:34:03.680
But you guys would open up your home uh for us.
00:34:04.000 --> 00:34:05.359
I just think that's so generous.
00:34:05.440 --> 00:34:12.960
And what you're doing now with different people, how you're interviewing them, you're being generous with your time and with your space and with your listening.
00:34:13.199 --> 00:34:16.239
Both of you, uh, what a gift that you're offering people.
00:34:16.400 --> 00:34:19.119
So I appreciate the time that we got to spend together today.
00:34:19.199 --> 00:34:21.519
And I just want to say thank you uh for this opportunity.
00:34:21.599 --> 00:34:22.159
It's been great.
00:34:22.559 --> 00:34:24.559
Me too, and and much love to your family.
00:34:24.800 --> 00:34:26.159
Uh oh, yours as well.
00:34:26.320 --> 00:34:26.639
Yeah.
00:34:26.880 --> 00:34:27.679
Blessings.
00:34:28.719 --> 00:34:31.920
I liked his image of Jesus as a gardener.
00:34:32.239 --> 00:34:39.599
I I like that too, and I don't think I'd ever really thought of it that and I like the comparison of like God creating the world was a gardener too.
00:34:40.000 --> 00:34:40.400
Yeah.
00:34:41.840 --> 00:34:42.800
Lovely thought.
00:34:43.760 --> 00:34:52.800
I wanted to tell you, I read a study right before um we were gonna talk the other day about um prayer and your brain.
00:34:53.760 --> 00:35:03.280
So I think everybody knows prayer meditation is good for anxiety and stress, but there was a study done at Johns Hopkins that said prayer 12 minutes a day.
00:35:03.360 --> 00:35:07.039
I don't know that I'm timing myself that I'm praying that much, but that was the study.
00:35:07.280 --> 00:35:12.320
It actually strengthens your memory, your focus, strengthens your brain.
00:35:14.400 --> 00:35:16.400
12 minutes seems like a long time, though.
00:35:16.639 --> 00:35:17.280
I know.
00:35:20.159 --> 00:35:21.760
But I'm working on it.
00:35:24.960 --> 00:35:27.199
Will five minutes a day do anything for my brain?
00:35:27.280 --> 00:35:28.000
I don't know.
00:35:28.239 --> 00:35:29.519
It's a good start, right?
00:35:32.079 --> 00:35:36.320
You know, I'm very uh mindful of that stuff now.
00:35:36.480 --> 00:35:45.599
So I'm gonna try and um not time my my prayer life, but you know, maybe talk to God a little longer every day.
00:35:46.079 --> 00:35:46.480
That's good.
00:35:46.639 --> 00:35:48.400
Try every day, a little longer every day.
00:35:50.559 --> 00:35:52.320
Well, happy Easter, everybody.
00:35:52.480 --> 00:35:59.119
I hope everybody gets an Easter basket with jelly beans, which I will buy one for myself and one for the kids.
00:35:59.440 --> 00:36:04.400
I always like the um marshmallow covered, uh, chocolate-covered marshmallows that look like rabbits.
00:36:04.639 --> 00:36:06.000
Little butt Easter bunnies.
00:36:06.320 --> 00:36:07.360
The marshmallow thing.
00:36:07.440 --> 00:36:09.039
All right, to each his own.
00:36:11.039 --> 00:36:12.480
All right, happy Easter.
00:36:12.639 --> 00:36:16.239
If you like the show, give us good ratings, good reviews, and share with friends.
00:36:16.639 --> 00:36:21.599
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