Science For All Learners

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Welcome back to Change Ed.
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Change time.
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Change Ed.
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Your favorite podcast that you turned on and decided to listen to this episode.
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Right now.
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I am your one of your I am a.
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I have hosted I am a host with Capital H, Andrew Kuhn, Education Consultant from Montgomery County Intermediate Unit.
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And here with me is Womp Womp, Patrice.
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Sadness.
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I don't, I don't, I'm not like a showman.
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Like you make it a thing every time.
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My name is Patrice Subjek.
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I'm out of the Montgomery County Intermediate Unit, and I'm also an educational consultant.
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And we have with us Tony Marabito from Carbon Lehigh Intermediate Unit.
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You think after three seasons that the intro will be a little less awkward?
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No.
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Every time.
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Every time.
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Oh, I thought you were going to say 1981.
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No, you're not that old, are you, Tony?
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No, Tony's significantly younger than us.
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Anyway, we have a as we're continuing on our this year.
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I feel really bad for people, like in this season, how all of season three is going to be you trying to make amends for edging Tony and I out of being a host on this podcast because we're recording them all around the same time as my hizi fit.
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Yeah, yeah.
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Well that's every day.
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So it's not because that's not clear.
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Wow.
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But you don't get to talk to me like that.
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HR, we are in the the building with HR.
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So no surprise to any of our listeners, season three.
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We decided that we were as good as Smartless and that we were gonna have surprise guests that come on.
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It has been an awesome journey.
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And today Hey, name two of the hosts from Smartless Jason Bateman and Dax Prescott.
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Nox Shepard.
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Shepard Dax Shepard, see?
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No, he has his own.
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He's been on the Oh, the other guy with the the thing.
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And he's oh the guy, Will Arnett.
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Boom.
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Which one are you?
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I think you're the Sean Hayes of the group.
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I love him.
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Anyway, I would like to learn more about your guest.
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I'm gonna delete all his stuff.
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Gosh, our poor guest.
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She's used to it.
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I would like to learn more about your guest, another person we've never met before.
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You really stressed out hard finding these guests, finding people who are homegrown.
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Could you introduce us to your guest?
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Our guest is one of my favorite humans, Carrie Kessler.
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She has worked at MCIU for ever and a day.
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And when I first started at the IU, Kessler, we have two Carries in our office, so if I call her KK, that's why.
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But Carrie was my like autism CLM coach when I was teaching in an autistic support classroom here at the IU.
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So I've known Carrie from day one of my MCIU adventure.
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And then I got the pleasure of working with Carrie as a TAC training consulting specialist and focusing on math and ELA.
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And Carrie has been an amazing advocate and an amazing resource in the world of autism.
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So I'm going to let Carrie introduce herself and tell us a little bit more about who she is.
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Do I need to after that?
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I know.
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It was really pretty good.
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Thanks, Carrie.
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Yes, so I'm Carrie Kessler, an educational consultant here at the Montgomery County Intermediate Unit.
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I have been at the IU for 23 years, first as a teacher in autistic support, and then as a TAC training consulting specialist under the Pennsylvania Department of Education Special Education Initiative of Autism.
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Wow.
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Which no longer exist because we now have pillars.
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Much easier to say.
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The pillars are wonderful.
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Just don't ask me which one I'm under because I can't remember.
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It's too new.
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And I'm old, and that will change as well.
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So you being old will change or the pillars will change.
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Wow.
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Both.
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You're going to let them talk to you like that?
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I am going to let them talk to me that way because I think I'm already reversing, you know, when you yell about your parents acting like they're teenagers.
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I think I've hit it.
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And I'm old, but not that old.
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Yeah, but they're loving it.
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So I invited Carrie today to talk about.
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We we're going to have some conversations, hopefully, around what does science look like in an autistic support classroom, or what does it look like in an intensive support classroom?
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Because we do know that there's some things coming out.
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I think we just got an email saying that there's new essential content for the I forget what it's called, for the PASA.
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So in talking to Patrice for today, those of you listening who know about complex kiddos, whether they're autistic support, life skills, multi-disabled, what we've been doing at the state, patent, and IUTAC level is talking to teachers and administrators about the dynamic learning map or the DLM.
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In the COVID year of 2020, we adopted DLM to be our alternative assessment platform.
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So the PASA is from DLM.
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There are a lot of things associated with that DLM website in terms of instructional resources and, you know, just thinking about educating our more complex learners.
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We've spent a good bit of time talking about ELA and math, but they have redone the SEALs standards.
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And so what will happen in 2027 is there'll be an updated part to the DLM science.
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And they're working through everything now.
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There's things out now, but of course, you you need to have people out there using the materials, doing some work, testing out the assessment.
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So that's that's where we live a little bit with science at the moment.
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Yeah.
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It's still relatively new.
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And the interesting thing for us to consider as we're talking about steels is oftentimes we target the gen ed population.
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And we tend to forget that we have to shift our instruction for students who have more complex needs or who have learning support needs and things like that.
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And so I invited Carrie here so we could have like some really cool conversations about what could science look like, what should it look like.
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And it doesn't necessarily mean reducing the content.
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It means providing access, giving them steps to get them to the spot in which we want them to be at in terms of their science learning.
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So now naturally, my mind is going to Universal Design for Learning because we've recently recorded a podcast talking about UDL.
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But I think also that seems like a very natural spot because, like you said, okay, we planned for the majority, but what about all of our other students who are also learners and who also want to understand the world better and to be challenged?
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What does that look like?
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So that's where my mindset went with this.
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And and from your experience, do you also see that kind of a parallel, or this is kind of a planning for all to get into steals and learning?
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I think we have a ton of work to do when it comes to steals and our complex kiddos.
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And part of the reason is that in a lot of our more self-contained programs, whether it's autism or autistic support or not, we're spending a lot of time in one-to-one instruction.
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And so it's not leaving us time to get to everything.
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And by everything, I mean even having a rigorous ELA literacy program running a math program.
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So you're not going to see steals, you're not going to see a lot of social studies because we're spending all day just moving kids out of one-to-one situations.
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So in the DLM work, what you'll notice if you dive in there is that as they're looking at the standards that they aligned to, they're making links back to ELA and math.
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So that as we get into talking to teachers about DLM, about the steals portion, hopefully we can start helping them say, oh, well, that's also this concept of literacy or this concept of math, like patterns, things of that nature.
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So I think that that will help with that discussion.
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The other thing I would say is when I'm exploring those steels, they're called essential elements in the DLM.
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What they do is they take and reduce in depth and breadth certain standards.
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There are less steel standards than in math and ELA because of the complexity of steels.
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They talk about, and I thought this was really interesting, they have science standards of practice that they embedded in DLM.
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And I don't have them all memorized.
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I know the first one is questioning.
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And I remember that one because in the literature that you look at, they're embedding the other seven scientific practices within the materials.
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They haven't embedded questioning in there.
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Nonetheless, they want to do that.
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So science isn't just something like, oh, well, we'll talk about some life cycles.
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We're not calling it that.
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So we're gonna do the butterflies and we're gonna do the plants.
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Every year for 10 years.
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Every year for 10 years.
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What is that?
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That makes us feel better.
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Like, oh, I got to science.
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I did it.
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I did it as a classroom teacher.
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It's what I knew or what I thought I could do to quote, fit it in.
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So they're trying to, I think, alleviate some of that where when you delve in and you use some of those resources, you're gonna be able to work with kids at different levels and get in some of those higher to me level thinking.
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Yeah.
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Remember, we used to talk about Webb's depth of knowledge, the D-O-K.
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Yeah.
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Yeah.
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But to your point, like I remember being in the autistic support classes, and I was more focused on getting them to even recognize an image.
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Not I wasn't getting them to think outside of the box or even focus on science stuff.
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And we always did the butt because we could bring the caterpillars in and we could watch them turn into butterflies, and occasionally we would have eggs hatching.
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Like it was those kinds of things which are fun, but not really deving into the science.
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And what I do like about what you were saying is that the questioning, I like that it's not embedded in because if I'm talking about science, the way that we're doing science with steels, is the questioning should be happening all the time.
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The teachers should be asking questions, the kids should be asking questions.
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So I kind of like that it's not embedded in because that's just something that should be universal across the I was gonna say the questioning piece should be tied into ELA and math too.
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The last math training I was in, they did a notice and wonder and a math problem.
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And I was like, my mind was blown because I didn't know that could happen.
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You know why are we not doing that in in every subject, especially with these kiddos that learn so much differently?
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They're gonna naturally have questions, right?
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So where's the time to allow for all that to happen too?
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I heard once several years ago, and I don't know where, if it I was at a training or from somebody that when kids are young and you're raising, I've raised two boys, they ask all the questions, right?
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The why, it's Ken Robinson.
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Yeah.
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That's who it is.
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All of that.
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And you know, as parents, you're like, oh my gosh, can we get past that stage?
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And then we enter our kids into education, kindergarten, first, second grade, public, private, and we just school it out of them.
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Oh, do we ever, right?
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And so I've raised two kids without disabilities, one who he always asked why.
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And he would have behavior at times because it wasn't because I said so.
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You didn't respond to that, right?
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Like, you know, well, why do I have to do this?
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Well, this is your morning work.
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Well, it's boring.
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Who got the email or the phone call that night?
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I did.
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So, but it is true, you're right, about thinking about how do we keep questioning our kids, but how do we teach low incidence students to question back?
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Yes.
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What does that mean?
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My three-year-old asked me that.
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And I was like, wait, what's happening right now?
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Yeah.
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So things like that.
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And for every kid, that's gonna be different too.
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What you expect for one student to question might be completely different for another.
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I came from an elementary school where we had two intensive support classrooms and two autism support classrooms out in Muellerburg and in Reading.
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And first of all, they were my favorite classes to visit.
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But God bless all the teachers in there because they are they are saints.
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But listening and and and kind of following along with their lessons, like sometimes you're just trying to get through whatever they're going through at the moment.
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And it's less about questioning or or even the math standard that you're covering that day, you know?
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So they just have a special place for sure.
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Yeah, and it's providing, and then how do you provide the access when you talk about doing anything, whether it's the steals, the ELA, the math, as you're alluding to Tony?
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How are they communicating?
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So my son asked, Well, I don't understand that, or what does that mean, mom?
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Right?
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How do we provide the access through their assistive technology?
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When they can't, when they can't physically, or I could see it.
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Yeah, it might be through gesturing or whatever the case may be.
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Or their behavior.
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Right.
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Right.
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Or yeah.
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So yeah.
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We talk in some literacy circles.
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Our colleague, Andrew, Patrice and I, Julie Ortleb, she talks a lot about comprehensive literacy for all the work of Karen Erickson and some other people.
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And they talk in some of that work when you're thinking about scheduling and having like blocks of time.
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So it's not necessarily like this is Steele's time or this is this time.
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So you can have a little bit of an easier flow for what you just said, Tony.
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Like some days you're like, well, I thought this was gonna go this way.
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And Andrew's under the table.
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Patrice is trying to exit the classroom, right?
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And Tony's sitting like just the cherub that he is, ready to be.
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Yeah.
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But, you know, and we've all been there.
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And even in general education classrooms, you know, you you have the days where as teachers, as just humans, where it all goes right and sometimes it all goes to the crapper.
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Yeah.
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Yeah.
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One of the things that I think I really liked about what you and I were doing back when I was in the autistic support classroom was we were talking about how can I, to your point, chunk my day.
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And what I think is really important for us to continue to to think about and to learn about is how can I use science and social studies to teach ELA and math.
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Because I can study a phenomenon and I have to read about it, I have to write about it, I can do some math to like chart it or graph it or all of those things.
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And I think that if we can shift a little bit from, I just remember I'm my brain is going to how many classrooms did we go into, KK, that had weather charts?
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And that's all the science was was a weather chart.
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We track the weather for the day.
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And they were like, well, that with that, we just did science during circle.
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And that's that's that is, yes, data collection, but it's not science, understanding why the clouds are in the sky and that kind of thing.
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I think we need definitions of what is instruction and what is just tracking goals.
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Yeah.
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So what we see a lot in different classrooms as consultants, I believe, is I'm sitting as the teacher with you, Tony, and I am drilling practicing your IEP goals.
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So you have a decoding goal, you have a multiple meaning word goal.
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So maybe I can pull in some steels words, you know, for that, things like that.
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That's not teaching.
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Those things find themselves on an IEP because they're skills you don't have.
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And there has to be teaching.
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And there's skills that you need to access the education.
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That's where I think if we can shift the language.
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And that's where I'm with the GIEP stuff, the gifted stuff, same thing.
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I need these skills to be able to access different curriculum and different learning.
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So if we can I love that.
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Carrie, I'm stealing it.
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I met with a friend and colleague.
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Her name's Liz Maurer.
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Shameless plug.
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She has business data, makes the difference.
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Her and her husband have raised two children.
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One is a, I think she's probably about 26, their daughter with a disability.
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And Liz formerly worked for the Pennsylvania Autism Initiative doing the intensive teaching VB map work.
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When her and her husband got involved, and I forget the story, with Essential for Living, it's EFL.
00:17:23.680 --> 00:17:26.640
It's another program that's ABA BB based.
00:17:26.720 --> 00:17:29.519
But we had this conversation yesterday about EFL.
00:17:29.599 --> 00:17:46.400
But she was saying something to my R colleague, Cassie and I, and she said, it takes time, but do we look at our class and look at each student and say, is their program the most relevant for them?
00:17:46.559 --> 00:17:47.519
And I wrote it down.
00:17:47.599 --> 00:17:49.119
I was like, Liz, I'm stealing it.
00:17:49.359 --> 00:17:50.559
Because she's exactly right.
00:17:50.720 --> 00:17:52.319
But it doesn't happen overnight.
00:17:52.799 --> 00:18:03.759
So in the context of picking those literacy, math, steals type targets along with their behavior or social, emotional targets.
00:18:04.079 --> 00:18:08.079
What is most relevant to the kid?
00:18:08.240 --> 00:18:12.000
And when you're talking, Patrice, about how do you combine them?
00:18:12.160 --> 00:18:18.799
Yeah, how do you look at what they need to learn in literacy and math and science andor social studies?
00:18:18.960 --> 00:18:22.799
Because that might be what's going to be relevant for their life.
00:18:23.839 --> 00:18:31.680
Not so much just pulling out these skills and knowing that yes, we do need to learn to decode or we need early numeracy skills.
00:18:31.839 --> 00:18:32.960
Can we subitize?
00:18:33.279 --> 00:18:36.480
Can we, you know, use a number line and things like that?
00:18:36.720 --> 00:18:37.599
Absolutely.
00:18:37.839 --> 00:18:39.279
But how does that help?
00:18:39.359 --> 00:18:39.519
Yeah.
00:18:39.759 --> 00:18:41.519
How do you incorporate that to weather?
00:18:41.839 --> 00:18:43.599
How is that going to help them be successful adults?
00:18:44.000 --> 00:18:44.160
Yeah.
00:18:44.400 --> 00:18:51.359
I think when you said relevant, relevant to that individual person, student, and their success moving forward and throughout the years, right?
00:18:51.599 --> 00:18:53.839
Because what might be relevant to Patrice is not going to be the same.
00:18:54.000 --> 00:18:55.440
She's way more advanced than Andrew's.
00:18:55.519 --> 00:18:58.400
So we have to we have to there's a theme here on this podcast.
00:18:58.960 --> 00:19:01.200
But we have to make sure that we you're spot on.
00:19:01.359 --> 00:19:04.000
The big idea, the big goal for them is gonna look completely different.
00:19:04.079 --> 00:19:05.359
We just have to make sure we're hitting that.
00:19:05.440 --> 00:19:08.079
And if we can tie those standards in there, I think we're doing okay.
00:19:08.319 --> 00:19:08.559
Right.
00:19:08.960 --> 00:19:12.480
And what you said too, Patrice, about you know, like the chunking.
00:19:12.559 --> 00:19:14.480
So, you know, you can chain things.
00:19:14.559 --> 00:19:18.640
It's a applied behavioral analysis method or strategy, right?
00:19:18.720 --> 00:19:21.359
You can forward chain, you can backward chain.
00:19:21.599 --> 00:19:26.720
I think about your work, Patrice, in particular, with backwards design.
00:19:27.200 --> 00:19:33.440
How do we think about what kids need at 22 and backward down?
00:19:33.839 --> 00:19:36.960
Because I think that would help us as well.
00:19:37.119 --> 00:19:42.319
And then you make things more relevant if you can do some of that work.
00:19:42.640 --> 00:19:42.720
Yeah.
00:19:42.960 --> 00:19:52.000
Well, on that mindset, I will say that from my perspective, the new steel standards were designed in such a way of like, let's move this along progressively.
00:19:52.240 --> 00:20:01.039
And I think one of the challenges earlier we talked about the butterfly, you know, that we're all experiencing the butterfly multiple times in our in our education.
00:20:01.519 --> 00:20:02.160
Not in rainbows.
00:20:02.400 --> 00:20:10.559
In rainbows, but we'll know in a very short matter of time, a couple of years, whether or not someone has actually adopted steels.
00:20:10.720 --> 00:20:19.440
Because if we were to go into a school district, anyone, and they were to see we're still doing butterflies, and that hasn't happened because it was intentionally chunked.
00:20:19.759 --> 00:20:21.359
It was intentionally grouped together.
00:20:21.519 --> 00:20:23.839
So it was like in middle school this should happen.
00:20:24.000 --> 00:20:25.920
Not specifically sixth grade, do this.
00:20:26.319 --> 00:20:35.119
Because I think what we people were finding was okay, yep, that butterfly works here, but it also works in seventh grade and eighth grade and ninth grade, and you know, and we kept doing it.
00:20:35.599 --> 00:20:48.000
And so that's the the beauty and something that I don't know that we've mentioned so far in season three, but it's an oldie butty goody that with the old standards we went a mile wide but an inch deep.
00:20:48.160 --> 00:20:51.680
And with these new standards, we're looking to go an inch wide and a mile deep.
00:20:51.920 --> 00:20:52.000
Right.
00:20:52.240 --> 00:21:04.000
And the point of that is that we want to be able to go further so that when we're not with our students, they have some mechanism that they can reference to and say, this is how we kind of work through this problem in my class.
00:21:04.720 --> 00:21:06.880
And it's really about problem solving, right?
00:21:07.039 --> 00:21:17.759
Like if we are finding a question and figuring out how to solve it, I think if we can get our kids with more complex needs to really focus on that part of the science.
00:21:17.839 --> 00:21:19.759
It's the scientific thinking.
00:21:20.000 --> 00:21:23.279
Maybe they don't need to know about like all the different types of rocks.
00:21:23.440 --> 00:21:24.720
While cool, fun.
00:21:24.960 --> 00:21:30.799
It's what skills are going to help them later on, how to identify a problem, and then how to figure out how to solve it.
00:21:30.960 --> 00:21:32.480
Oh, wasn't it like a song?
00:21:32.880 --> 00:21:33.200
Okay.
00:21:33.519 --> 00:21:34.799
But but the dance you just did.
00:21:36.799 --> 00:21:37.839
I nailed some song, you guys.
00:21:38.240 --> 00:21:39.200
We're all like, nope.
00:21:39.519 --> 00:21:41.839
Something like a DJ, you'll I'll solve it.
00:21:42.000 --> 00:21:43.039
You know what I want to do?
00:21:43.119 --> 00:21:43.519
Nothing.
00:21:43.599 --> 00:21:45.599
DJ revolve it.
00:21:45.839 --> 00:21:46.640
Was that it?
00:21:46.880 --> 00:21:48.079
Not I'll solve it.
00:21:48.240 --> 00:21:49.200
No, that's not right.
00:21:49.920 --> 00:21:50.400
I don't know.
00:21:50.480 --> 00:21:59.839
I think I went to, you know, the I did like a little those songs that was Saturday morning cartoons when it was little like, you know, construct maybe it is a kid.
00:22:00.640 --> 00:22:04.079
Maybe it is maybe it's maybe it's a bill on capital building.
00:22:05.119 --> 00:22:06.799
Maybe it's Bob the Builder, I'm thinking.
00:22:07.119 --> 00:22:09.359
Yeah, well, you jammed out like it was not Bob the Builder.
00:22:09.599 --> 00:22:10.799
I jammed out the Bob the Builder.
00:22:12.240 --> 00:22:15.039
Anyway things are popular in our house too.
00:22:15.440 --> 00:22:24.079
Well, again, I've actually talked about this before, but what's resonating with me now is that the importance of having this intentional intentionally designed this way.
00:22:24.240 --> 00:22:33.119
I read outsiders three different times because I moved three straight years and each state was that on their curriculum, it was something different they were doing.
00:22:33.279 --> 00:22:40.160
So last night I went to my son's open house for a program that he's part of at his school, and they were talking about the outsiders.
00:22:40.400 --> 00:22:41.200
Like, has anybody read it?
00:22:41.279 --> 00:22:43.599
And I'm like, Can somebody else put a hand up for me?
00:22:44.480 --> 00:22:45.359
Have you seen the movie?
00:22:45.440 --> 00:22:46.799
Can somebody else put a hand up for me?
00:22:46.960 --> 00:22:48.160
Because I had both my hands up.
00:22:48.319 --> 00:22:50.480
And that's where I was kind of going with that.
00:22:50.559 --> 00:22:52.400
Like, if we keep repeating, sure.
00:22:52.559 --> 00:22:55.599
Like I felt very successful the third time we were talking about the outsiders.
00:22:55.680 --> 00:22:58.799
I'm like, oh hey, you guys didn't even talk about this, which they talked about in Ohio.
00:22:58.880 --> 00:23:01.759
You you must have sound really intelligent by the third time.
00:23:02.000 --> 00:23:05.200
Yeah, that's why I just keep talking about the same things all the time.
00:23:05.440 --> 00:23:07.920
Is that why they finally pass you to seventh grade from sixth grade?
00:23:08.720 --> 00:23:10.799
Well, you're not telling your buddies you're in sixth grade three times.
00:23:12.240 --> 00:23:13.680
All the same school.
00:23:14.480 --> 00:23:16.559
You know, they call that reclassing these days.
00:23:16.960 --> 00:23:17.920
You were reclass.
00:23:18.240 --> 00:23:18.799
Yeah, yeah.
00:23:18.880 --> 00:23:19.599
Thank you.
00:23:19.839 --> 00:23:22.480
I can't wait for this episode to be done.
00:23:22.880 --> 00:23:29.200
So Tony, Tony's gonna be like, I need to work for MCIU because they know how to have fun over there.
00:23:29.519 --> 00:23:30.319
Reclass Coon.
00:23:31.920 --> 00:23:33.359
We're making shirts.
00:23:34.880 --> 00:23:37.759
I seriously that's what I'm gonna call all.
00:23:38.000 --> 00:23:38.400
Yeah, it's great.
00:23:38.480 --> 00:23:38.640
Thank you.
00:23:40.000 --> 00:23:40.480
She will too.
00:23:40.640 --> 00:23:41.440
It'll stick for five years.
00:23:42.079 --> 00:23:43.759
We're never doing a surprise guest ever again.
00:23:43.920 --> 00:23:44.799
No, this is the best.
00:23:44.880 --> 00:23:46.720
I'm just gonna keep bringing IU colleagues.
00:23:46.960 --> 00:23:48.000
Raz Andrew.
00:23:48.400 --> 00:23:56.880
So there's a level of success that I can feel as a learner because I had already read the book and I didn't have to read again, and I could be part of the conversation.
00:23:57.039 --> 00:23:58.960
I knew that, you know, like I knew where this is going.
00:23:59.039 --> 00:23:59.759
I knew that.
00:24:00.000 --> 00:24:04.640
And so that's what a lot of our learners might feel like, oh, butterflies, I know what we're doing.
00:24:04.720 --> 00:24:05.759
Like there's success there.
00:24:06.160 --> 00:24:07.599
I think the teachers feel comfortable in that too.
00:24:07.839 --> 00:24:09.039
And they feel comfortable in that too.
00:24:09.119 --> 00:24:11.119
So the important I think they know it's engaging.
00:24:11.279 --> 00:24:12.160
Like it's engaging.
00:24:12.240 --> 00:24:12.720
You can talk.
00:24:13.039 --> 00:24:14.000
Kids love this every year.
00:24:14.079 --> 00:24:14.720
That's why we do it.
00:24:14.880 --> 00:24:15.119
Yeah.
00:24:15.279 --> 00:24:15.519
Yeah.
00:24:15.839 --> 00:24:19.680
Well, where I'm going is that learning doesn't happen in comfort.
00:24:19.759 --> 00:24:19.920
Right.
00:24:20.079 --> 00:24:21.759
That we need to step into a different space.
00:24:22.079 --> 00:24:22.960
That's profound.
00:24:23.279 --> 00:24:26.000
Well, it's about perseverance, right?
00:24:26.160 --> 00:24:28.640
I mean, that's in the mathematical practices.
00:24:28.799 --> 00:24:37.599
And I believe there's something along those lines in those scientific elements I was telling you about that I can't remember all, but just the first one.
00:24:37.839 --> 00:24:44.799
There are different programs I work in where we talk about helping students learn to do what is non-preferred, right?
00:24:44.960 --> 00:24:54.960
Things that you don't like, things we do all the time as parents or caregivers or employees, you know, all of that.
00:24:55.200 --> 00:25:13.440
But what I really wanted to say to Andrew's point was the idea that when we repeat, repeat, repeat, sometimes our kids in our complex or more significant kids, the teacher will say to you, but Carrie, the data's all over the place, right?
00:25:13.599 --> 00:25:17.519
I'm not sure that they have it, quote, mastered, right?
00:25:17.759 --> 00:25:27.519
And some of my argument back to that is how many times do you want to be asked how to dress the weather bear or do the days of the week?
00:25:27.759 --> 00:25:33.119
One of my favorite stories is being in a high school program, going around with supervisor.
00:25:33.279 --> 00:25:38.640
This is many, like probably almost a decade ago since this happened.
00:25:38.799 --> 00:25:42.240
But we're going room to room and I'm getting a feel for their program.
00:25:42.480 --> 00:25:45.279
And it's high school and they're doing the weather.
00:25:45.440 --> 00:25:47.599
And literally, I think they had a weather bear.
00:25:48.160 --> 00:25:50.240
Now, remind me, like it's 10 years ago.
00:25:50.480 --> 00:25:54.960
Nonetheless, the kid went across the table at the teacher.
00:25:55.359 --> 00:25:58.559
And, you know, okay, so we we can't allow that.
00:25:58.720 --> 00:26:00.720
That's not an employability skill.
00:26:00.880 --> 00:26:05.039
You can't go across the table at your boss because you don't like that they repeated themselves.
00:26:05.279 --> 00:26:12.559
But we walked out of the classroom and I looked at her and I said, you know, I might go across the table too, because I'm in high school.
00:26:12.720 --> 00:26:21.759
And how many times have I answered these questions around dressing a bit what we do around like morning meeting kinds of times?
00:26:21.920 --> 00:26:25.599
And so I asked my teachers now, take a look sometimes.
00:26:25.759 --> 00:26:31.119
Do a, you know, I grew up Tom and Jerry, you know, with the angel and devil on your shoulder.
00:26:31.599 --> 00:26:41.759
Can you sort of have an out-of-body experience in your own classroom and say, you know, I've asked Patrice this every day for six weeks or the last three years.
00:26:42.079 --> 00:26:43.599
I think she knows it.
00:26:44.400 --> 00:26:46.960
I think some point she's time to move on.
00:26:47.359 --> 00:26:47.920
I'm done.
00:26:48.079 --> 00:26:54.400
I'm not gonna answer this again because maybe I'm not getting it right.
00:26:54.559 --> 00:26:54.720
Yeah.
00:26:54.880 --> 00:26:57.839
So I have to say it this way, or I say it this way.
00:26:58.079 --> 00:26:58.240
Yeah.
00:26:58.480 --> 00:27:00.640
We have to kind of think about our data.
00:27:00.799 --> 00:27:02.400
We have to think about what we're doing.
00:27:02.559 --> 00:27:08.319
So if we can, Andrew, look at some of those units, how do they grow?
00:27:08.480 --> 00:27:12.880
And in the dynamic learning maps, when you look at the essential elements.
00:27:13.119 --> 00:27:20.000
So by the way, the essential elements replace the alternate eligible content and the PA standards.
00:27:20.160 --> 00:27:24.559
When we adopted dynamic learning maps, we adopted that.
00:27:24.799 --> 00:27:28.240
And so in those EEs, you have linkage levels.
00:27:28.400 --> 00:27:40.319
So kids can be taught the same concept, but you and Steel's one of you might be initial, one of you might be precursor, and one of you might be target.
00:27:40.799 --> 00:27:43.440
And so you can run lessons that way.
00:27:43.599 --> 00:27:51.279
The same is true over the scope of the K to 12, if you will, set of essential elements.
00:27:51.759 --> 00:27:53.599
They grow with the student.
00:27:53.759 --> 00:28:01.839
So you can make things more rigorous, make them continue to be more relevant to change that sort of that.
00:28:02.240 --> 00:28:02.559
Yeah.
00:28:02.880 --> 00:28:08.640
I love that you used my name and the way you did it made it seem like to the listener that I wasn't paying attention.
00:28:08.720 --> 00:28:12.000
Like you were bringing me back, and you're like, Andrew, and then you kept going.
00:28:12.240 --> 00:28:12.960
Which is not the case.
00:28:13.119 --> 00:28:14.079
I was 100% with you.
00:28:14.400 --> 00:28:14.799
She knows, yeah.
00:28:14.960 --> 00:28:15.839
At least from my own.
00:28:16.000 --> 00:28:20.079
I know, but I said something else before I went back to what your point was.
00:28:20.240 --> 00:28:20.960
So I was just clear.
00:28:21.279 --> 00:28:22.880
You're using me as a transition point.
00:28:23.200 --> 00:28:27.039
I sure did because you can see the ADHD kicking in with me.
00:28:27.279 --> 00:28:30.640
Well, the other thing I I want to point out is you were saying there's a lot that Patrice can do.
00:28:30.720 --> 00:28:35.279
The one thing she can't do is dance to Bob the Builder because whatever you were doing a little bit ago, that was a mess.
00:28:35.599 --> 00:28:38.319
First of all, I can dance to Bob the Builder.
00:28:38.480 --> 00:28:41.200
You didn't like my version of the dance.
00:28:41.519 --> 00:28:44.240
So you are the barrier, not me.
00:28:44.400 --> 00:28:44.880
I can dance.
00:28:45.200 --> 00:28:46.160
Bob of the Barrier again.
00:28:46.240 --> 00:28:47.359
This is continuing for the whole season.
00:28:47.599 --> 00:28:48.640
Okay, what you were saying before.
00:28:48.880 --> 00:28:49.519
Thank you, Tony.
00:28:50.400 --> 00:28:51.680
Well, I'm trying to think now.
00:28:51.920 --> 00:28:52.559
Sorry, Tony.
00:28:52.880 --> 00:28:54.240
The whole Bob the Builder.
00:28:54.400 --> 00:28:55.119
Can we build it?
00:28:55.359 --> 00:28:56.240
Yes, yes, we can.
00:28:56.480 --> 00:28:57.440
How was it?
00:28:57.759 --> 00:29:01.200
I think that that should be like a mantra in a classroom.
00:29:01.440 --> 00:29:03.359
Like, can we do it?
00:29:03.599 --> 00:29:04.240
Yes, we can.
00:29:04.559 --> 00:29:06.400
Andrew says that everything can we solve it?
00:29:07.680 --> 00:29:08.079
Go ahead, Tony.
00:29:09.039 --> 00:29:09.440
No, no, no, it's fine.
00:29:09.599 --> 00:29:10.319
Capital Hose.
00:29:10.400 --> 00:29:10.720
Go ahead, sir.
00:29:11.039 --> 00:29:20.799
When you were mentioning the 12th grader with the weather bear doing this over and over and over again, I think going back to our conversation with Rob this morning about math and getting answers, you found the song.
00:29:21.039 --> 00:29:21.279
I did.
00:29:21.519 --> 00:29:21.839
Let's hear it.
00:29:22.000 --> 00:29:23.119
It's ice ice, baby.
00:29:23.279 --> 00:29:25.440
If there's a problem, you I'll solve it.
00:29:25.759 --> 00:29:27.839
Oh my gosh, that's not at all what you were saying.
00:29:28.319 --> 00:29:29.119
That's not where you were going to be able to do that.
00:29:30.319 --> 00:29:31.279
No, I don't agree.
00:29:32.079 --> 00:29:37.839
How Rob was saying the journey of solving the problem and just making a miscalculation.
00:29:38.000 --> 00:29:38.079
Yeah.
00:29:38.240 --> 00:29:42.640
So the student has known how to do this for a long time and maybe they just misspoke or they miscalculated.
00:29:42.799 --> 00:29:46.160
I think we have to reassess our our view on what's a right answer, what's a wrong answer.
00:29:46.240 --> 00:29:48.400
And that's so I think it all ties together.
00:29:48.480 --> 00:29:53.200
Whether you're a regular ed support classroom, like what have you, I think we have to figure out where the breakdown was.
00:29:53.359 --> 00:29:56.559
Was it a breakdown in their understanding or was it a miscreation?
00:29:56.720 --> 00:29:58.480
Speaking, a miscalculation, a misswhate.
00:29:58.559 --> 00:29:58.799
Yep.
00:29:59.359 --> 00:30:05.920
I think there's also, Tony, what you're talking about, a misnomer about teaching to mastery.
00:30:06.400 --> 00:30:08.240
Now, one, what is mastery?
00:30:08.480 --> 00:30:10.880
70%, 80%, 100%.
00:30:11.680 --> 00:30:17.039
Not every skill, and probably many, don't need to be taught to mastery.
00:30:17.200 --> 00:30:29.839
And so we are again to pick on like drill and practice skills that we're waiting for some magical number to rain down like a we had 70.
00:30:30.079 --> 00:30:30.880
Rainbow.
00:30:30.960 --> 00:30:31.279
We're done.
00:30:31.359 --> 00:30:31.599
You're good.
00:30:32.079 --> 00:30:32.640
Rainbow.
00:30:33.039 --> 00:30:38.799
And be like, and I never have to do that again.
00:30:38.960 --> 00:30:39.359
Check.
00:30:39.440 --> 00:30:40.240
That's kind of what it is.
00:30:40.640 --> 00:30:41.759
Sorry, you're only 68.
00:30:41.920 --> 00:30:42.799
You did not hit mass.
00:30:43.200 --> 00:30:44.720
No, but that's literally what has happened.
00:30:44.960 --> 00:30:45.039
Yeah.
00:30:45.599 --> 00:30:46.160
That's what I'm saying.
00:30:46.240 --> 00:30:46.319
Yeah.
00:30:46.640 --> 00:30:47.359
That's literally what's happening.
00:30:47.599 --> 00:30:48.880
And then that goes back to the relevancy.
00:30:48.960 --> 00:30:51.599
Is this really relevant to the student for their success when they leave us?
00:30:51.920 --> 00:30:54.799
Why are we still doing analog clocks?
00:30:55.279 --> 00:30:55.599
Well.
00:30:56.079 --> 00:30:56.640
Every time.
00:30:56.960 --> 00:30:58.480
Like well, you're right.
00:30:58.640 --> 00:31:00.960
Like updating practices.
00:31:01.200 --> 00:31:08.000
So why are we teaching time or weather in certain ways when you could teach an app on a smart device?
00:31:08.480 --> 00:31:09.920
It's a much more life skill-focused.
00:31:10.240 --> 00:31:19.200
Oh, let me say if you're between 65 and 80, shorts, short sleeves, maybe a jacket.
00:31:19.279 --> 00:31:19.359
Right.
00:31:19.680 --> 00:31:24.160
Anything probably 75 to 100 is a t-shirt and shorts.
00:31:24.319 --> 00:31:25.279
Like much more relevant.
00:31:26.079 --> 00:31:29.359
So that you're, yeah, not doing the weather bear so much.
00:31:29.680 --> 00:31:32.720
And there's not really a lot of weather bears around anymore.
00:31:32.880 --> 00:31:33.759
I will say that.
00:31:34.000 --> 00:31:39.279
But some of those same storied practices are there.
00:31:39.359 --> 00:31:42.799
And that's what I think we need to kind of retool.
00:31:43.200 --> 00:31:50.079
And I'm not saying we should get rid of the benchmark altogether, like 70 might be your number, but let the teacher decide whether that student's ready to move on or 68 is okay.
00:31:50.400 --> 00:31:51.039
68 is okay.
00:31:51.119 --> 00:31:51.279
Yes.
00:31:53.839 --> 00:31:55.920
Well, and some are precursor skills.
00:31:56.000 --> 00:32:08.000
And what many people who work with low incidence students will tell you is you don't understand sometimes how they have skill F when they're missing D and E.
00:32:08.720 --> 00:32:18.559
And so again, teaching to that mastery, waiting for the you know, rainbow to show up is not a good use of time on a lot of levels.
00:32:18.799 --> 00:32:18.960
Right.
00:32:19.920 --> 00:32:22.880
Carrie, we are running out of time.
00:32:23.039 --> 00:32:24.559
So I want to give you a choice.
00:32:25.039 --> 00:32:28.079
Would you like to provide the second to last final thought?
00:32:28.240 --> 00:32:28.559
Oh.
00:32:29.039 --> 00:32:35.039
Or we could all jam out to a remix I just made of Ice Ice Baby and Bob the Builder.
00:32:35.119 --> 00:32:36.400
It's totally your choice.
00:32:36.720 --> 00:32:41.359
Oh, I think I really need the Ice Ice Baby Bob the Builder remix.
00:32:42.160 --> 00:32:44.079
You're offering it to the audience.
00:32:44.160 --> 00:32:45.680
I I can't take that from them.
00:32:47.839 --> 00:32:48.160
You know what?
00:32:48.240 --> 00:32:59.519
Unfortunately, video feed just another opportunity to embarrass Patrice to make her feel bad about showing her authentic self.
00:33:00.000 --> 00:33:00.799
Andrew and I don't do that.
00:33:00.960 --> 00:33:01.759
So yeah, thank you.
00:33:01.839 --> 00:33:02.400
Thank you, Tony.
00:33:02.880 --> 00:33:03.920
Did you hear the sarcasm?
00:33:04.240 --> 00:33:05.119
Did you hear the sarcasm?
00:33:05.200 --> 00:33:05.920
Because everyone else is.
00:33:06.160 --> 00:33:08.160
I am a monotone sarcasm individual.
00:33:08.799 --> 00:33:15.440
I just want to know that if Andrew really had developed this Bob the Builder ice ice baby remote.
00:33:15.680 --> 00:33:16.480
I would have danced.
00:33:16.720 --> 00:33:23.039
Well, no, I think I'm offended because that means he wasn't listening to me and he was writing on his paper over there.
00:33:23.839 --> 00:33:27.039
I was trying to tell you, I'm so busy listening to you, I didn't actually make it.
00:33:27.119 --> 00:33:28.640
It was you called my bluff.
00:33:28.960 --> 00:33:30.640
Ice ice baby, can we build it?
00:33:30.720 --> 00:33:31.200
Yes, we can.
00:33:31.440 --> 00:33:33.119
Liar, liar, pants, fire.
00:33:33.680 --> 00:33:35.599
So Carrie, I don't have a choice anymore.
00:33:35.839 --> 00:33:36.720
Second to last thought, please.
00:33:37.039 --> 00:33:42.720
Second to last thought for our conversation here and something that maybe you didn't get to say or that you think would be important for you.
00:33:42.880 --> 00:33:45.039
Anything you want to inspire us with or leave us with?
00:33:45.599 --> 00:33:53.839
I would say that this is such a cool and important conversation to think about all our learners.
00:33:54.000 --> 00:33:55.599
We just got off a meeting.
00:33:55.680 --> 00:33:56.960
What does all mean?
00:33:57.519 --> 00:34:17.599
And so, how do you think about all learners and what is available to us, things like the DLM, what their essential elements, to continue to build on our instructional practice and how we're doing instruction across all these important content areas.
00:34:18.239 --> 00:34:19.440
That was good one, KK.
00:34:20.159 --> 00:34:21.199
Well done.
00:34:21.679 --> 00:34:25.280
Now I'll just make it a turn wreck and then we'll call it an episode.
00:34:27.039 --> 00:34:33.119
The thing that's been sitting with me this entire conversation is that our work is not done.
00:34:33.440 --> 00:34:41.599
And I think in a lot of ways, I'll speak for myself on this journey that we've spent over three years working in steels trying to empower educators.
00:34:42.000 --> 00:34:44.880
And as we see that progress, it's like, yes, we're getting there, right?
00:34:44.960 --> 00:34:46.480
We're we're getting on on board.
00:34:47.039 --> 00:34:47.840
This is happening.
00:34:48.559 --> 00:34:52.559
But this conversation has opened my eyes to say, like, there's still a lot that we have to do.
00:34:52.960 --> 00:34:58.800
You know, even if we get to 70% mastery, that doesn't mean that we got everyone on board.
00:34:59.280 --> 00:35:03.119
And and what does that work look like to paraphrase what you said?
00:35:03.360 --> 00:35:08.239
How can we empower educators and our learning process so that we're including all?
00:35:08.400 --> 00:35:12.400
And not some, not most, not the majority, but all.
00:35:12.719 --> 00:35:16.800
If we don't include everyone, have we really achieved what we're looking to achieve?
00:35:16.880 --> 00:35:24.000
So I think it's a great opportunity for intentional collaboration and conversations to happen and also to further our learning.
00:35:24.320 --> 00:35:32.239
You've inspired me to continue to think about this in a broader sense and expand my view of all, with the exception of Patrice.
00:35:32.400 --> 00:35:34.000
If we don't include Patrice, we still have all.
00:35:34.320 --> 00:35:35.440
Because I already get it.
00:35:36.159 --> 00:35:37.119
Because you already got it.
00:35:37.199 --> 00:35:37.360
Yeah.
00:35:37.599 --> 00:35:38.159
Thank you, Carrie.
00:35:38.320 --> 00:35:39.119
It was a pleasure meeting you.
00:35:39.519 --> 00:35:39.920
Oh, a pleasure.
00:35:40.159 --> 00:35:42.639
Tony's like, and we're wrapping this up for including.
00:35:43.119 --> 00:35:43.840
You're done.
00:35:44.159 --> 00:35:45.519
Thank you for being on the show.
00:35:45.679 --> 00:35:47.920
As always, thank you to our listeners for tuning in.
00:35:48.079 --> 00:35:53.119
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00:35:53.519 --> 00:35:55.920
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00:35:56.000 --> 00:35:58.800
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