WEBVTT
00:00:00.640 --> 00:00:06.000
Hello, hello everybody, and welcome to this episode of Causes or Cures.
00:00:06.160 --> 00:00:06.480
I'm Dr.
00:00:06.559 --> 00:00:09.119
Eeks, your host, and thanks for joining in.
00:00:09.359 --> 00:00:11.439
So, do you drink smoothies?
00:00:11.759 --> 00:00:13.279
This one is for you, then.
00:00:13.679 --> 00:00:21.359
Do you think adding a banana to your smoothie changes how much nutrition you absorb?
00:00:21.679 --> 00:00:25.920
In this episode, I'm joined by Professor Gunter Kunla.
00:00:26.239 --> 00:00:40.240
He's a nutrition scientist whose research sparked headlines after finding that bananas may reduce the absorption of certain beneficial compounds called flavanols when blended in smoothies.
00:00:40.399 --> 00:00:42.799
And the flavanols were in fruit, right?
00:00:42.880 --> 00:00:43.759
So think about that.
00:00:43.840 --> 00:00:46.479
We all kind of do that, mix bananas with fruits.
00:00:46.640 --> 00:00:47.679
A lot of us do.
00:00:48.159 --> 00:01:04.079
So we discuss what flavanols are, why they're important, what the study actually found, what it didn't find, whether you should stop putting bananas in your smoothies, and why the future of nutrition may be about more than just individual foods.
00:01:04.239 --> 00:01:12.159
It may also be about how foods interact with one another and improving the measurements in nutritional research, which he talks about a lot.
00:01:12.719 --> 00:01:16.799
Alright, so take a sip of your smoothie if you have one in front of you.
00:01:17.599 --> 00:01:20.879
And give me a few seconds while we connect to Gunter.
00:01:23.359 --> 00:01:33.920
All right, everybody, we are connecting with Professor Gunter Kumla, and we're gonna talk about bananas and the smoothie and what sort of things we should put in the smoothies.
00:01:34.000 --> 00:01:36.959
But first, Gunter, thanks so much for joining in.
00:01:37.280 --> 00:01:41.519
And can you tell our listeners a little bit about yourself and what you do?
00:01:42.239 --> 00:01:43.200
Well, yeah, of course.
00:01:43.280 --> 00:01:44.000
Thank you for having me.
00:01:44.159 --> 00:01:45.280
So my name is Gunther.
00:01:45.439 --> 00:01:49.680
I'm a professor of nutrition and food science at the University of Reading in the UK.
00:01:49.840 --> 00:01:52.079
So we're just a little bit outside of London.
00:01:52.239 --> 00:01:55.680
If you fly out of Heathrow, look down, that's where we are.
00:01:56.079 --> 00:02:01.359
My research interest is in a very extreme way, I'm I'm interested in measuring what people are eating.
00:02:01.519 --> 00:02:03.920
That's really my sort of research area.
00:02:04.159 --> 00:02:06.560
And from that on a lot of interesting questions come.
00:02:06.640 --> 00:02:10.159
Because if you eat something, does it also end up in your body?
00:02:10.319 --> 00:02:12.879
Is it a taken up or is it destroyed before you eat it?
00:02:12.960 --> 00:02:16.000
Because it's fine, and that's what we're going to talk about, I think.
00:02:16.240 --> 00:02:17.599
It's it's really an interesting question.
00:02:17.680 --> 00:02:20.080
You know, if you eat something, but what ends up in your body?
00:02:20.159 --> 00:02:22.879
Because that is what is really important for your health.
00:02:23.120 --> 00:02:29.280
So my my basic idea of measuring what are people eating is then sort of expands in different subquestions.
00:02:29.680 --> 00:02:31.039
Okay, that makes sense.
00:02:31.199 --> 00:02:38.560
So that kind of answers, I guess, my next question, which was how did you get interested in studying like bananas and smoothies?
00:02:38.800 --> 00:02:45.199
And I say that because that's when I was clicking on headlines, I was like, what is everybody talking about like bananas and smoothies?
00:02:45.840 --> 00:02:49.520
Yes, so that's sort of the the the second part of my research.
00:02:49.599 --> 00:02:54.639
Um have been since I think since I finished my PhD, I have been working with polyphenols.
00:02:54.879 --> 00:02:56.479
And especially flavanols.
00:02:56.639 --> 00:03:04.080
So flavanols are compounds found in mainly tea, in in a lot of pom fruits and berries.
00:03:04.719 --> 00:03:07.199
And well, I always need to be careful.
00:03:07.439 --> 00:03:12.479
I believe that they're healthy, but there's a lot of data suggesting that they're beneficial for health.
00:03:12.639 --> 00:03:14.639
I think I think that's that's something which I can say.
00:03:14.719 --> 00:03:19.120
I know in nutrition, a lot of people overclaim the health benefits of things.
00:03:19.680 --> 00:03:26.639
But there have been a number of small studies, there has been a large randomized control trial, the Cosmos study, which showed beneficial effects.
00:03:26.719 --> 00:03:29.919
So I think saying that they're probably healthy, I can.
00:03:30.240 --> 00:03:37.520
Now polyphenols have the interesting property that how do you eat a lot of people would eat berries, for example, a smoothie.
00:03:37.840 --> 00:03:41.840
So the questions come if you eat them smoothies, do they still stay in there?
00:03:42.080 --> 00:03:43.840
And then what do people put in smoothies?
00:03:44.000 --> 00:03:44.560
Bananas.
00:03:44.800 --> 00:03:45.759
I used to do that.
00:03:46.479 --> 00:03:48.879
And that that is sort of one of the funny things of doing science.
00:03:48.960 --> 00:03:55.280
So one side of your brain knows obviously banana contains phenyl oxidase, obviously banana destroys all of this.
00:03:55.599 --> 00:03:58.080
But you completely ignore this when you make a banana smoothie.
00:03:58.159 --> 00:04:03.120
You put the bananas into your berry smoothie and don't really think what is what is going to happen.
00:04:03.680 --> 00:04:09.039
And essentially, based on such a assumption, you know, how do people eat this?
00:04:09.199 --> 00:04:10.240
Came this this idea.
00:04:10.400 --> 00:04:15.120
Well, let's try what happens if we if we make a banana smoothie with berries.
00:04:15.520 --> 00:04:16.079
Okay, okay.
00:04:16.160 --> 00:04:18.000
And so let's just drive this home for our listeners.
00:04:18.079 --> 00:04:24.160
So the berries have the flavanols, which in the which there's evidence to say they're healthy for you.
00:04:24.399 --> 00:04:24.639
Yes.
00:04:24.879 --> 00:04:25.199
Okay, okay.
00:04:25.680 --> 00:04:27.519
They reduce cardiovascular disease risk.
00:04:28.399 --> 00:04:31.279
That's I think something we are reasonably certain.
00:04:31.680 --> 00:04:37.439
As I said, I'm always careful to make bold claims because in nutrition everyone does it.
00:04:37.759 --> 00:04:38.240
I know.
00:04:38.399 --> 00:04:38.800
I know.
00:04:38.959 --> 00:04:40.160
And I appreciate your approach.
00:04:40.319 --> 00:04:46.000
Okay, so you have the berries, and then you have you just mentioned something, the polyphenol oxidase.
00:04:46.240 --> 00:04:46.560
Yes.
00:04:46.800 --> 00:04:48.800
And that's in the bananas.
00:04:49.120 --> 00:04:58.560
Can you elaborate on what that is uh for the of course, that's an enzyme, and it's not just in bananas, it's in apples, for example, as well.
00:04:58.639 --> 00:04:59.839
That's what makes them brown.
00:05:00.240 --> 00:05:00.800
In what?
00:05:00.879 --> 00:05:01.199
Sorry?
00:05:01.439 --> 00:05:02.560
That makes the apples brown.
00:05:02.800 --> 00:05:03.680
Oh, the apples, right, right.
00:05:03.920 --> 00:05:07.600
But if you have an apple, you know, then you cut them open and they go brown.
00:05:07.839 --> 00:05:14.800
So the polyphenol oxidase is nothing really exotic as an enzyme, but bananas are quite high in polyphenol exodase.
00:05:15.040 --> 00:05:20.160
And apples contain polyphenols, bananas don't really contain many polyphenols or no flavonools.
00:05:20.240 --> 00:05:22.000
So it was an interesting question.
00:05:22.079 --> 00:05:32.000
If if you put the bananas in there, if you then homogenize them in a in a smoothie, do these phenol oxidase really react with the with the with the flavonools or not?
00:05:32.160 --> 00:05:38.240
It could well be, you know, you you tear everything apart and you have a system where the enzyme just dies and and nothing happens.
00:05:38.319 --> 00:05:39.680
So that was really the question.
00:05:40.079 --> 00:05:42.959
What was your hypothesis before you did the experiment?
00:05:43.439 --> 00:05:47.519
Well, I think we assumed it's going to digest them.
00:05:47.680 --> 00:05:50.639
I think the question was how much of the polyphenol will survive?
00:05:50.800 --> 00:05:55.120
Because if you put it in a blender and you you eat it, it's not a long time for it to react.
00:05:55.279 --> 00:05:58.800
Smoothies are often cold, that would inhibit a reaction.
00:05:59.040 --> 00:06:03.600
So it was more sort of the idea it's going to be less, but not necessarily nothing.
00:06:04.079 --> 00:06:10.319
Okay, can you describe for our listeners how you did your experiment, like as simply as you can?
00:06:11.199 --> 00:06:15.199
Well, in just sorry, do the birds outside disturb you?
00:06:15.680 --> 00:06:16.720
No, I like birds.
00:06:17.519 --> 00:06:20.480
Because there are a lot of magpies fighting with something.
00:06:21.199 --> 00:06:21.759
Oh, they're fighting?
00:06:21.920 --> 00:06:22.959
No, I'm a big birder.
00:06:23.040 --> 00:06:24.319
I just got a bird cam.
00:06:24.399 --> 00:06:27.279
Um, I put it up at near my parents' house and I'm obsessed.
00:06:27.519 --> 00:06:28.399
Oh, I see you.
00:06:28.560 --> 00:06:28.879
Okay.
00:06:29.040 --> 00:06:32.560
I just I just was wondering whether it interferes with your with the recording.
00:06:32.639 --> 00:06:34.000
So No, it doesn't.
00:06:34.160 --> 00:06:34.639
You're fine.
00:06:34.720 --> 00:06:37.920
I have like trucks outside, but I could quite noisy.
00:06:38.160 --> 00:06:41.199
They have young, so no, no, the the birds.
00:06:41.439 --> 00:06:46.079
Yeah, yeah, they have young and so they have sort of I think the parents despair a little bit.
00:06:46.480 --> 00:06:50.000
Oh yeah, the parents are anxiety and yeah, and it's hot there.
00:06:50.879 --> 00:06:52.399
And we don't have air conditioning.
00:06:52.560 --> 00:06:52.800
Sorry.
00:06:53.120 --> 00:06:54.560
No, well, I I don't mind.
00:06:54.639 --> 00:07:01.600
It's it's it's quite nice at the moment, but yeah, no, they're sort of you too well, but they're about four, but they're they're quite noisy.
00:07:02.480 --> 00:07:03.199
No, yeah, okay.
00:07:03.519 --> 00:07:14.399
Anyway, what's so what what we've done is is you you we've created smoothies with with bananas and with with with berries, and we let people consume them.
00:07:14.879 --> 00:07:21.680
So people drank the smoothies, and then we measured how much polyphenols end up in the body.
00:07:22.399 --> 00:07:25.839
So because that's that's really the interesting thing.
00:07:25.920 --> 00:07:34.399
Um yes, of course, we can measure it, but measuring it, uh how much is in there, it doesn't really tell you how much how much is taken up.
00:07:34.879 --> 00:07:41.279
So we actually wanted to find out we wanted to find out how much is taken up in the body.
00:07:42.319 --> 00:07:45.600
Okay, so how do you measure it in the body?
00:07:46.160 --> 00:07:52.399
So the easiest way, so that's that's where my sort of research area, and that's how do we measure intake?
00:07:52.720 --> 00:07:56.240
And the easy and traditional ways we ask people what they eat.
00:07:56.480 --> 00:08:02.800
But the problem of this is that if we ask people what they eat, they're not necessarily always remember what they're eating.
00:08:02.879 --> 00:08:12.560
So one of my research was is on sugar intake, and that was really the interesting thing is if you ask people how much sugar they eat, the heavier people are, the less sugar they eat.
00:08:12.639 --> 00:08:21.040
So you have this really strange result of high sugar intake is associated with low body mass, simply because people are under report.
00:08:21.360 --> 00:08:25.120
It would be great, you know, eat more cake and lose weight, but it doesn't work like that.
00:08:25.439 --> 00:08:27.279
And it's the same with fruit and vegetables.
00:08:27.360 --> 00:08:32.559
If you ask people, everyone eats their five a day, but that's of six, and then you measure that's less.
00:08:33.039 --> 00:08:41.120
We all want to make ourselves sound better than we are, like Oh yes, and and people generally forget, and then you sit in front of a strange person asking you what you're eating.
00:08:41.279 --> 00:08:43.440
You don't want to show off of eating the wrong thing.
00:08:43.519 --> 00:08:46.480
So and Yeah, like I eat dollars every day.
00:08:46.639 --> 00:08:47.200
Yeah, yeah.
00:08:48.399 --> 00:08:53.039
And the easy way around this is you can measure what people eat in their urine.
00:08:53.279 --> 00:09:03.600
So that's what what we generally do is you take urine samples in the perfect world, you take 24-hour urine, and you have essentially what someone excretes over day.
00:09:03.759 --> 00:09:06.399
And that works very well for a number of things.
00:09:06.559 --> 00:09:07.279
Salt intake.
00:09:07.360 --> 00:09:09.360
If you want to measure salt intake, it's the best way.
00:09:09.519 --> 00:09:15.200
People generally don't know how much salt they have in their food because you don't measure it, you just add a little bit.
00:09:15.279 --> 00:09:16.879
There's a lot in the food you buy.
00:09:17.200 --> 00:09:18.399
Sugar works that way.
00:09:18.559 --> 00:09:22.559
And we've developed uh a method to measure flavanol intake.
00:09:22.799 --> 00:09:27.840
So we measure two metabolites of flavanols, one which has a very, very short half-life.
00:09:27.919 --> 00:09:31.919
So you eat your flavanols and it will be in your urine in about an hour or so.
00:09:32.240 --> 00:09:39.440
And another one which takes well about six hours because it goes via the gut, it's metabolized in the gut, and then taken up.
00:09:39.679 --> 00:09:45.519
And we can use these two biomarkers to measure how much flavonol a person has consumed.
00:09:45.840 --> 00:09:47.360
And that is really the way.
00:09:47.440 --> 00:09:53.840
So, what we've done is we've we've taken urine samples of these people, we've taken, I think, yeah, I need to remember.
00:09:53.919 --> 00:09:57.600
We've taken urine samples of these people and measured how much did people consume?
00:09:58.080 --> 00:09:59.120
So, what did you find?
00:09:59.440 --> 00:09:59.919
Oh, go ahead.
00:10:00.320 --> 00:10:02.480
And that was really the interesting outcome.
00:10:02.639 --> 00:10:12.320
So if people consumed with banana, they it reduced massively the amount of polyphenols that they took up.
00:10:12.960 --> 00:10:15.440
That's concerning for smoothie lovers.
00:10:15.519 --> 00:10:23.600
But did you also find that if the banana was separate from the smoothie but eaten kind of around the same time, there was still less.
00:10:24.480 --> 00:10:27.759
As long as you put them together in your in your mouth, it acts.
00:10:27.840 --> 00:10:34.240
I think as soon as you you have as soon as they they come in your stomach, I think the acidity will kill the enzyme quickly enough.
00:10:34.399 --> 00:10:36.159
But yes, if you have them in your mouth.
00:10:36.320 --> 00:10:43.440
So sensible idea is don't consume bananas and berries at the same time if you want to have the flower notes.
00:10:43.600 --> 00:10:47.279
You know, some people some people have smoothies just because they taste nice and it tastes nice.
00:10:47.519 --> 00:10:50.879
Yeah, and a banana is like a nice texture to a smoothie.
00:10:51.120 --> 00:10:52.960
So yes, it does help.
00:10:53.039 --> 00:10:58.159
I think it's sort of that the big problem we had after this paper was sort of people saying, Oh, you hate bananas.
00:10:58.240 --> 00:10:59.919
No, no, no, no, we like bananas.
00:11:00.639 --> 00:11:06.720
It's really if you have if you want to have flavanoles from your smoothie, don't add bananas.
00:11:06.960 --> 00:11:09.440
If you don't, you know, it does doesn't really matter.
00:11:09.600 --> 00:11:11.759
But yes, if you do, it's a bit of a problem.
00:11:12.320 --> 00:11:15.120
So do you put bananas in your smoothies?
00:11:15.279 --> 00:11:17.279
If you do you drink smoothies?
00:11:17.600 --> 00:11:18.879
It depends.
00:11:19.279 --> 00:11:21.600
So I I like bananas in smoothie.
00:11:21.679 --> 00:11:23.200
It's it's it's quite nice.
00:11:24.000 --> 00:11:32.399
But if I want sort of if I had a lot of berries and I love berries as well, I've decided to separate them because I think it's it's it's it's sensible.
00:11:32.720 --> 00:11:34.000
Although I do it sometimes.
00:11:34.480 --> 00:11:42.559
Well, you know, it really depends on the on the taste, and and you get used to it, but because you well, yes, the banana makes it more creamy, more what is the right thing?
00:11:42.720 --> 00:11:43.679
Sort of soft.
00:11:44.159 --> 00:11:44.720
Yeah.
00:11:45.039 --> 00:11:53.039
And you know, I feel like people everyone's like, you know, bananas, potassium, like bananas have a lot of other like stuff that's good for you in them, right?
00:11:53.360 --> 00:11:53.759
Yeah.
00:11:54.080 --> 00:12:06.559
So I do, like your study made me rethink my oatmeal because I put I like have oatmeal, I like oatmeal, and like sometimes put Oat Bran on it, and then I would put berries on it, but also I would add in bananas.
00:12:06.720 --> 00:12:09.120
And now I'm like, oh my god, I've been doing it wrong.
00:12:09.519 --> 00:12:11.200
Again, it depends on why you eat it.
00:12:11.279 --> 00:12:13.679
If you eat it because you like it, that's perfectly food.
00:12:13.919 --> 00:12:15.919
Well, I want the benefits of the berries.
00:12:16.399 --> 00:12:20.080
Well, then it's probably sensible to to to separate the two.
00:12:21.600 --> 00:12:25.120
Are there foods besides bananas that are high in this enzyme?
00:12:25.279 --> 00:12:32.960
Like I know bananas got the headline, but I feel like it could be banana is is is quite quite high, and I think banana is sort of the highest.
00:12:33.200 --> 00:12:43.440
Apple is sort of the next next high one, which is has only about uh 3,000 is uh well, it's about a sixth of of what bananas have.
00:12:43.519 --> 00:12:47.600
So bananas is is really by far the highest one.
00:12:47.840 --> 00:12:53.120
And of course, apples have the advantage that they contain polyphenols, they contain flavonools already.
00:12:53.519 --> 00:12:56.080
So isn't the apple like fighting itself?
00:12:56.559 --> 00:12:58.720
Well, as long as the cells are intact, that's fine.
00:12:58.799 --> 00:13:05.360
I think that the problem is as soon as you as with the banana, as soon as you mesh up the banana, that's when the problem starts.
00:13:05.679 --> 00:13:06.240
Okay, okay.
00:13:06.320 --> 00:13:09.120
So an apple's not like a contradiction.
00:13:09.919 --> 00:13:10.159
No.
00:13:10.720 --> 00:13:18.240
There are questions now after and and we the problem with all of these things is you end up with a lot of interesting questions.
00:13:18.399 --> 00:13:20.879
And the one thing is, could you stop the reaction?
00:13:20.960 --> 00:13:28.080
You know, if you add if you make it more acidic, if you add vitamin, you know, if you add uh lemon juice on banana on apples, they stop going brown.
00:13:28.320 --> 00:13:29.519
So could you do this?
00:13:29.759 --> 00:13:36.399
Or the when when you make commercial smoothies, because they use higher pressures usually, would this make a difference?
00:13:36.639 --> 00:13:42.159
So, you know, if one could start measuring smoothies, commercial smoothies and see what's in there.
00:13:42.480 --> 00:13:46.080
But yeah, we never we never got across to these these kind of things.
00:13:46.240 --> 00:13:53.600
I think we were we were also very surprised that that paper was so popular because in one way it's a very boring simple thing.
00:13:53.679 --> 00:13:57.039
You know, banana berries, they react, you don't got any.
00:13:57.360 --> 00:14:00.879
We'd never expected that it sort of got this kind of traction.
00:14:01.360 --> 00:14:03.120
What other sort of research did you do that?
00:14:03.360 --> 00:14:06.559
You were like, I can't believe it was the banana paper that got the headlines.
00:14:06.639 --> 00:14:08.799
It should have been I don't know.
00:14:08.960 --> 00:14:21.600
Well, it's it's always, you know, there are big papers looking on the difficulties of dietary assessment, and I find them really exciting, but then then probably I have to accept that that's sort of a group of ten people who find this really exciting.
00:14:21.840 --> 00:14:28.480
And if you want to explain it to someone else, you sort of realize no people don't really find this as exciting as I do.
00:14:28.960 --> 00:14:36.879
But so in a way, with hindsight, it's obvious why the banana became sort of really, really popular, because it's it's a nice story.
00:14:37.200 --> 00:14:38.559
Yeah, it's a nice story.
00:14:38.720 --> 00:14:53.120
But to your point, I think there is sort of like a general understanding that like self-surveys aren't the maybe the best way to you know figure out nutrition or what's the best or the healthiest for us.
00:14:53.200 --> 00:14:58.399
So I think what you're doing, like there's general kind of consensus, like, oh, this'll be cool too.
00:14:58.639 --> 00:15:04.080
Like, and this is what this person's eating, and like is this what's going into this person's body, and like measuring it.
00:15:04.159 --> 00:15:06.399
It's like adding objective stuff, right?
00:15:06.799 --> 00:15:13.120
And I think that's that's sort of what what we really it's it's one of the big problems in nutrition is really measuring what people are eating.
00:15:13.279 --> 00:15:21.440
I think that's sort of where we really, really struggle because all the methods which are very detailed are at the same time very expensive.
00:15:21.759 --> 00:15:22.399
Yeah, for sure.
00:15:23.039 --> 00:15:28.000
Collecting urine samples, even collecting a spot urine, not just a 24-hour urine, it's expensive.
00:15:28.080 --> 00:15:30.000
You have to analyze them, you have to process them.
00:15:30.080 --> 00:15:34.240
If you have a questionnaire, now you can do it electronically.
00:15:34.399 --> 00:15:38.080
Now I I I learned this with a paper-based one where people typed it in.
00:15:38.240 --> 00:15:42.639
But of course, now I don't think any anything is done on paper anymore.
00:15:42.879 --> 00:15:44.000
So that's really quick.
00:15:44.080 --> 00:15:51.279
We run our studies where people use a an app and they put everything in and you can almost in real real time see what people are eating.
00:15:51.519 --> 00:15:53.840
But the problem is still we know what they tell us.
00:15:53.919 --> 00:15:56.480
We don't necessarily know what that what they actually eat.
00:15:56.879 --> 00:15:59.279
I actually write down what I eat every day.
00:15:59.360 --> 00:16:00.000
I still do it.
00:16:00.080 --> 00:16:01.200
I've been doing it for years.
00:16:01.440 --> 00:16:07.679
But I also write down like what I work at, like I have like a to-do list, like what I eat, and I, you know, work out what I do.
00:16:07.840 --> 00:16:11.440
And I'm honest about it, but I'm not like reporting to anybody, you know.
00:16:11.679 --> 00:16:14.879
So you have sort of you you have a habit of doing that.
00:16:15.120 --> 00:16:17.519
But a lot of study participants don't have this habit.
00:16:17.679 --> 00:16:21.039
They they they suddenly start doing it changes their diet.
00:16:21.200 --> 00:16:27.519
So the a lot of people who start doing food diaries also they start to lose weight because suddenly they realize what they're eating.
00:16:27.759 --> 00:16:28.080
Right.
00:16:28.399 --> 00:16:33.600
Next snacks become much more difficult because if you have to write down a snack, you think about do I really need a snack?
00:16:34.000 --> 00:16:34.639
Probably not.
00:16:34.960 --> 00:16:35.679
Yeah, that's true.
00:16:35.759 --> 00:16:36.080
Yeah.
00:16:36.240 --> 00:16:41.519
I love writing, like, because I feel like the pen and the paper just makes it more kind of like an intimate experience for me.
00:16:41.600 --> 00:16:46.159
Like it's like, okay, here I am, I'm actively writing and I'm not like distracted by my phone.
00:16:46.320 --> 00:16:46.720
I don't know.
00:16:46.879 --> 00:16:49.440
Maybe I'm old fashioned or something, but I think it helps.
00:16:50.320 --> 00:16:53.600
I don't think a lot of I I don't I know a lot of people moved away from paper.
00:16:53.759 --> 00:16:56.879
So my reason to move away from paper is that I lose things.
00:16:57.039 --> 00:16:58.720
Um I'm very bad in keeping things.
00:16:59.279 --> 00:17:02.879
I buy notebooks and I just write I write in a notebook every day.
00:17:02.960 --> 00:17:04.240
And I don't think that many people do.
00:17:04.319 --> 00:17:07.839
I think it's like I'm probably a little weird, but I am weird, but yeah.
00:17:08.160 --> 00:17:16.079
I I I tried to send a notebook here and a notebook there, and then another one there, and then you forget it, and um I'm yeah, I'm not organized enough for that.
00:17:16.400 --> 00:17:29.359
Yeah, I just for some reason I still write things down and outline story ideas, but then I I do lose things, and then it looks my notebook looks like a maze, and I have to try to figure it out too, like a a treasure map from like the 1800s or something.
00:17:29.440 --> 00:17:31.279
But um But it's organized.
00:17:32.400 --> 00:17:33.279
There we are.
00:17:34.240 --> 00:17:40.000
So your paper got a lot of media attention, and I'm curious, like, did you how was that for you?
00:17:40.079 --> 00:17:42.880
Like, did you get an email that made you laugh?
00:17:42.960 --> 00:17:47.440
Or or like did you read an article where you're like, oh man, this person really got this wrong?
00:17:48.079 --> 00:17:49.519
No, not well.
00:17:49.680 --> 00:17:55.680
Whenever you publish something on nutrition, you get sort of a set of emails of people who have completely different ideas.
00:17:55.759 --> 00:18:02.400
So there are a lot of people who believe that fruits are are dangerous anyway, and you should be banned and no one should eat fruits.
00:18:02.559 --> 00:18:03.759
They contain too much sugar.
00:18:03.920 --> 00:18:08.720
So you you always whenever you write something about fruits, you will be told you should never eat fruits.
00:18:08.799 --> 00:18:10.160
They're very, very bad.
00:18:10.400 --> 00:18:14.799
I mean, I'm sure you get emails like that from people who will completely disagree with what you do.
00:18:14.960 --> 00:18:18.559
And then write many pages about why this is actually, you know.
00:18:19.039 --> 00:18:19.200
Yeah.
00:18:19.359 --> 00:18:22.079
I've I've some after some episodes I've gotten that.
00:18:22.240 --> 00:18:25.359
Um I mean, and I just let people let them live.
00:18:25.920 --> 00:18:26.160
Yeah.
00:18:26.720 --> 00:18:29.759
But the dangerousness of fruits is something I didn't appreciate before.
00:18:29.920 --> 00:18:33.119
So it's really something that should be locked away and not sold.
00:18:33.519 --> 00:18:33.839
Too much.
00:18:34.880 --> 00:18:36.880
But isn't it what what are your thoughts on that?
00:18:36.960 --> 00:18:37.839
Like what are your thoughts on?
00:18:38.240 --> 00:18:41.839
I think it's a little bit excessive because yes, fruits contain sugar.
00:18:42.000 --> 00:18:42.319
Yeah.
00:18:42.559 --> 00:18:45.200
But they also contain things that are healthy.
00:18:45.359 --> 00:18:48.240
And we also eat food just because it tastes nice.
00:18:48.480 --> 00:18:57.200
A watermelon might not be the most important fruit fruit from nutrients, but if it's really, really hot, it's really, really nice to have an ice cold watermelon.
00:18:57.680 --> 00:18:58.880
Watermelon on a hot day.
00:18:58.960 --> 00:18:59.920
I had yeah, just the other day.
00:19:00.000 --> 00:19:01.279
I'm gonna have it this week.
00:19:01.599 --> 00:19:06.079
Yes, so and that's how you guys in Europe survive with no air conditioning.
00:19:06.319 --> 00:19:06.480
Okay.
00:19:07.599 --> 00:19:14.400
But I I think people are a little bit too obsessed with food sometimes and be too worried about you know, eat eating it.
00:19:14.559 --> 00:19:18.799
Doesn't it have to be that every food has to be the perfect healthy food.
00:19:19.039 --> 00:19:19.359
Yeah.
00:19:20.000 --> 00:19:25.200
Reasons why people like to indulge in food, and I think it's because food is so much more than just just eating.
00:19:25.599 --> 00:19:26.319
I agree with you.
00:19:26.480 --> 00:19:33.599
And really, I go strawberry picking, eat strawberries, like I I like I I eat fruit, but I don't forgive me.
00:19:33.839 --> 00:19:37.839
Oh yeah, yeah, I think I think most people eat fruit, but they I think people are very vocal.
00:19:37.920 --> 00:19:41.839
They they then these are also the people who then start to actually write.
00:19:42.079 --> 00:19:46.799
You know, you have to you have to sit down, you have to start to write an email, you have to think about it.
00:19:47.039 --> 00:19:48.480
It takes a lot of effort.
00:19:48.880 --> 00:19:49.279
Yeah.
00:19:49.519 --> 00:19:51.680
I just figure like it's a trend, you know.
00:19:51.759 --> 00:20:00.480
Like I I try to eat generally healthy, and I'm not gonna like kill myself over like the tenth ingredient and something, and you know, I I don't know.
00:20:00.559 --> 00:20:01.920
What are your thoughts on organic?
00:20:02.000 --> 00:20:03.119
I'm curious.
00:20:03.680 --> 00:20:10.000
I think health-wise, well, the first thing I have to say is I don't know the US food system well enough.
00:20:10.240 --> 00:20:14.319
And I think you have different rules, different regulations on organic and something.
00:20:14.960 --> 00:20:16.400
We have more chemicals than you guys.
00:20:16.799 --> 00:20:21.359
But you also have very different so the main part of the US I know is California.
00:20:21.440 --> 00:20:22.880
And I know very small parts of it.
00:20:23.759 --> 00:20:27.599
Yeah, like basically, okay, that's like not really America.
00:20:27.759 --> 00:20:30.079
I mean it's America, but it's not like America.
00:20:30.400 --> 00:20:31.920
Yeah, but I love the food dads.
00:20:32.079 --> 00:20:32.880
It's always very nice.
00:20:33.200 --> 00:20:36.400
But there the regulations in the US are just different.
00:20:36.480 --> 00:20:38.559
They're different rules, different approaches to things.
00:20:38.720 --> 00:20:44.480
I don't really know much about so all I can comment is sort of the UK version.
00:20:44.960 --> 00:20:50.400
I don't think there's much benefit here from organic from a health point of view.
00:20:50.799 --> 00:21:01.599
There might be in some ways of production, there might be more compounds in there because a lot of the healthy or what we believe healthy compounds are for made by the plant to protect itself from pests.
00:21:01.680 --> 00:21:03.839
So if you don't use pesticides, there will be more.
00:21:04.400 --> 00:21:07.680
But then in Europe, again, that's why I say I don't know how it's in the US.
00:21:07.759 --> 00:21:12.160
In Europe, uh organic farmers for some products can use copper as a as a pesticide.
00:21:12.480 --> 00:21:13.039
Copper.
00:21:13.359 --> 00:21:14.240
Copper, yes.
00:21:14.480 --> 00:21:16.960
It's the only one which is permitted for some.
00:21:17.119 --> 00:21:19.599
And copper is not necessarily incredibly healthy.
00:21:19.759 --> 00:21:23.039
So I don't know whether it's it's such a huge benefit.
00:21:23.359 --> 00:21:36.079
I think where where where I can understand people buying organic is is of course if they think animal welfare, animals are treated better, uh plants may be treat well, plants may be treated better, but less intensive.
00:21:36.319 --> 00:21:39.200
I I can see the reason from a from a more ethical point of view.
00:21:39.279 --> 00:21:40.799
They say, No, I want to do that.
00:21:41.119 --> 00:21:43.839
From a health point of view, I'm I'm I'm not sure.
00:21:44.640 --> 00:21:49.440
Very often, of course, uh good food is not just organic, but that there are other things as well.
00:21:49.519 --> 00:21:54.720
It's sort of some kind of special breed or something, and a farmer would then add organic to it as well.
00:21:55.359 --> 00:21:59.039
So, yes, organic is not necessarily a a standalone entity.
00:22:00.160 --> 00:22:06.720
It's combined with many things, but very often I'm I'm not as as convinced that it's healthier.
00:22:06.960 --> 00:22:08.720
As I said, there are other reasons to buy it.
00:22:08.799 --> 00:22:12.480
And I I think I would agree more with the other reasons than the healthiness.
00:22:12.799 --> 00:22:13.039
Yeah.
00:22:13.119 --> 00:22:23.440
I think and there's an interesting kind of like ethical production and you know maintaining the earth and like you said, treating animals well and that kind of thing.
00:22:23.519 --> 00:22:26.079
So I think there's a a movement for that.
00:22:26.640 --> 00:22:30.160
But what I mean, there's a lot of buzzwords in nutrition.
00:22:30.480 --> 00:22:33.039
And have fallen for many of them.
00:22:33.279 --> 00:22:38.640
Like, oh, all natural, all this, all the like, you know, immune boosting, that kind of thing.
00:22:38.960 --> 00:22:46.000
But I guess like like ultra-processed, that's one I think a lot of people can land on as not very good for you, right?
00:22:46.079 --> 00:22:46.480
Or no.
00:22:47.599 --> 00:22:49.359
That's where I'm sort of a bit about.
00:22:49.759 --> 00:22:52.240
I I'm not very convinced by ultra-processed food.
00:22:52.640 --> 00:22:54.640
You're not convinced that it's bad for you?
00:22:55.119 --> 00:22:56.960
Well, I'm not convinced by the by the category.
00:22:57.200 --> 00:23:03.440
Well, I'm not convinced that it's bad, but for very for a reason which is really goes back to my actual research area.
00:23:03.759 --> 00:23:06.799
Because we can't measure how much ultra-processed food we eat.
00:23:07.279 --> 00:23:08.160
Oh, interesting.
00:23:08.319 --> 00:23:08.480
Okay.
00:23:09.200 --> 00:23:18.799
Because so if you look at the questionnaires, so the Harvard questionnaire, for example, used, it combines so many foods, some of which are clearly ultra-processed, some of which aren't.
00:23:19.119 --> 00:23:24.160
In the UK, we have a lot, the majority of UK bread is made with a Jolley with process.
00:23:24.400 --> 00:23:29.759
So based on the classification is ultra-processed, but not all bread in the UK is ultra-processed.
00:23:30.079 --> 00:23:33.759
But simply by saying, well, all bread in the UK is ultra-processed.
00:23:33.920 --> 00:23:38.799
UK is high intake of ultra-processed food just simply by declaring all bread is ultra-processed.
00:23:39.759 --> 00:23:47.680
We have headlines saying almost all children get ultra-processed food as packed lunch to school because they get sandwiches.
00:23:47.839 --> 00:23:52.319
If I make a sandwich to my children, they get ultra-processed food because it's bread.
00:23:52.799 --> 00:23:55.920
And I think that sort of makes it really, really complicated.
00:23:56.160 --> 00:24:00.000
And then we have a category where we include sugar sweetened beverages.
00:24:00.480 --> 00:24:03.839
I don't think anyone disagrees that sugar sweetened beverages are not healthy.
00:24:04.480 --> 00:24:09.680
If you put this in a category, it's clear that the category will become less healthy just simply by by adding this.
00:24:10.079 --> 00:24:19.359
And and sort of that's my that's my problem with the concept is we have created a group of foods which are incredibly diverse.
00:24:19.680 --> 00:24:27.920
You know, we have fish fingers, which is fish in breadcrumbs, we have bread, we have soft drinks, we have any kind of multicolored sweets.
00:24:28.160 --> 00:24:30.799
And we put this all together and say this is all unhealthy.
00:24:31.119 --> 00:24:37.119
And I'm not sure this really helps to to create a better policy to make things healthy.
00:24:37.599 --> 00:24:43.119
Because if you tell people to avoid an incredibly large group, people will just say, Well, I can't do that.
00:24:43.440 --> 00:24:49.759
If you tell people, look, you should avoid this, this, or this is healthy, and this is unhealthy, it probably works better.
00:24:50.160 --> 00:24:55.279
But the main problem I have with the category is really we can't measure intake very well.
00:24:56.000 --> 00:24:58.160
It's it's really that that that boring thing.
00:24:58.319 --> 00:25:00.160
How do you know what people are eating?
00:25:00.640 --> 00:25:08.480
Especially because it's a group which contains so many unhealthy foods that we know they have an adverse effect on health.
00:25:09.200 --> 00:25:11.599
Is it just those foods or is it all the others?
00:25:11.920 --> 00:25:13.359
So yeah, bread bread.
00:25:13.839 --> 00:25:16.799
I I don't think bread really causes a lot of ill health.
00:25:17.519 --> 00:25:22.319
It's not really the smoking gun of ill health, but it's a part of ultra process.
00:25:22.799 --> 00:25:24.400
So is this really helping?
00:25:24.640 --> 00:25:29.759
Or would it be better to have a category which is sort of more focused on on specific problems?
00:25:29.920 --> 00:25:35.519
And that's that's the interesting question, which I think unfortunately gets gets ignored.
00:25:35.839 --> 00:25:37.920
And that is the processing in health.
00:25:38.480 --> 00:25:44.160
Because I'm I wouldn't be surprised if there are processes which are more beneficial and less beneficial to health.
00:25:44.480 --> 00:25:51.039
If you homogenize something, it's easier to eat, you're much easier to overconsume, which is shown in some ultra-process studies.
00:25:51.200 --> 00:25:53.759
But if you make a smoothie, you do exactly the same thing.
00:25:53.839 --> 00:25:56.640
You homogenize something and it's it's it's quicker to consume.
00:25:57.359 --> 00:26:11.440
So should we think about more specific processes or textures of food instead of having this huge category which which is so heterogeneous that you can't really easily say this is the problem or this is the problem.
00:26:12.160 --> 00:26:14.960
And I think that sort of gets lost a bit.
00:26:15.440 --> 00:26:21.680
And then these the there's sort of the other aspect is is of course the whole ultra-processed food discussion is also one about food systems.
00:26:22.559 --> 00:26:28.720
So that uh healthier foods and unhealthier foods disappear for uh from shops are replaced by other foods.
00:26:29.039 --> 00:26:31.759
And that's again a very complicated question.
00:26:31.839 --> 00:26:37.119
And I think by putting this all in one headline, it's really difficult to take apart.
00:26:37.440 --> 00:26:44.160
And in the end, we don't know, but I think that the big thing is we don't know will it be better to get people to eat healthily or not.
00:26:44.559 --> 00:26:49.599
Geez, so with that said, everyone go out there and uh eat.
00:26:49.759 --> 00:26:51.119
Um, not sure.
00:26:52.400 --> 00:26:59.119
I think the big problem is really how do we convince people what a healthy food what a healthy diet should be?
00:26:59.279 --> 00:27:02.000
And I think that's that's that's sort of the the core problem.
00:27:02.559 --> 00:27:07.279
And I think if I had a solution, well that would be great, but I don't think there is an easy solution.
00:27:07.440 --> 00:27:09.519
We have front-of-pack labelings.
00:27:09.680 --> 00:27:14.160
I think the US started with very detailed uh labels of ingredients.
00:27:15.039 --> 00:27:20.160
I remember when I came to the US when I was young and was always impressed there was so much detail on a food package.
00:27:20.559 --> 00:27:22.319
Yeah, well we even have more.
00:27:22.480 --> 00:27:34.160
Like, and then restaurants are putting like calorie content, and we're trying to get the new secretary is trying to get specific ingredients out of certain foods.
00:27:34.559 --> 00:27:35.599
Yes, that's that's what I said.
00:27:35.759 --> 00:27:39.039
The US system is is quite different from from the from the European system.
00:27:39.440 --> 00:27:42.079
Well, it's and it's a massive interest right now in the US.
00:27:42.240 --> 00:27:47.119
Like eating real food has become a not like a national slogan.
00:27:47.680 --> 00:27:48.079
Yeah.
00:27:48.319 --> 00:28:01.599
Of course we have like don't uh there's people who don't eat carbs, there's people who just do keto, and there's all sorts of but a big problem is always on and well, we'll see whether someone manages to find a solution.
00:28:01.680 --> 00:28:06.240
But a big problem is has always been have always been campaigns to encourage people to eat more healthily.
00:28:06.799 --> 00:28:09.599
And I don't think whether there was one was what really worked.
00:28:09.759 --> 00:28:11.440
In in the UK, was it last year?
00:28:11.519 --> 00:28:13.920
The House of Lords had a committee on obesity.
00:28:14.240 --> 00:28:20.400
And I think they found I can't remember the actual number, but I think there have been 600 government initiatives to deal with obesity.
00:28:21.039 --> 00:28:23.119
And and none of it really worked.
00:28:23.200 --> 00:28:34.799
And I think that's sort of the fundamental problem is there are a lot of good ideas, but somehow they never get people to to really change, change their diet sufficiently.
00:28:35.119 --> 00:28:43.200
And I I I don't know whether ultra-processed food will just be uh another new idea, which in five years' time there will be something else or not.
00:28:43.680 --> 00:28:51.839
I remember maybe uh focusing on a villain, but you know, people are it may not uh cause people to eat healthy overall.
00:28:52.319 --> 00:28:53.599
I think that's that's the thing.
00:28:53.759 --> 00:28:57.920
Getting people to eat healthily is really, really difficult.
00:28:58.480 --> 00:29:04.799
And I think that the comparison with smoking is is is a I find problematic because you don't have to smoke to survive.
00:29:04.880 --> 00:29:07.759
You can easily survive without smoking, but you have to eat.
00:29:08.160 --> 00:29:08.880
You have to eat.
00:29:09.359 --> 00:29:15.440
But don't you think there's like some you know, people say addict like isn't there like an addictive property to certain foods?
00:29:15.519 --> 00:29:16.720
Or what's your take on that?
00:29:16.960 --> 00:29:26.480
Because you know, like you like I can't stop eating ramen noodles, I can't stop eating this ice cream and yes, but you can't stop watching binge watch people do binge watching.
00:29:26.559 --> 00:29:29.359
Is it addic I think addictive is a complicated word.
00:29:29.519 --> 00:29:35.279
I'm not I think that's something I have to pass because I'm not a psychologist to know enough about that.
00:29:35.680 --> 00:29:40.640
But it's yes, and people eat for so many, so many uh reasons.
00:29:40.720 --> 00:29:45.680
I like to sometimes show in in in lectures a slide of don't you I assume you know Bridget Jones?
00:29:46.160 --> 00:29:46.880
Oh yeah.
00:29:47.200 --> 00:29:48.720
Where she eats the ice cream.
00:29:48.960 --> 00:29:49.759
Yeah, yeah, yeah.
00:29:50.000 --> 00:29:55.279
Yeah, you know, people eat for I'm sure she does not eat the ice cream because she thinks it's very healthy.
00:29:55.680 --> 00:29:56.000
Right.
00:29:56.079 --> 00:29:56.240
Yeah.
00:29:56.559 --> 00:29:58.880
Just sort of the you know, sometimes it's comfort food.
00:29:58.960 --> 00:30:01.440
So we eat for so many different reasons.
00:30:01.759 --> 00:30:02.000
Yeah.
00:30:02.240 --> 00:30:08.400
And putting on that this and you have to eat, you know, all diet needs to be healthy, it's really hard.
00:30:08.559 --> 00:30:18.319
I think food is food is so essential to to our life that it will always be difficult to get people to to change the diet in a very meaningful way.
00:30:18.720 --> 00:30:19.599
It's very easy.
00:30:19.680 --> 00:30:23.119
If you if you have an organized, structured life, it's easy.
00:30:23.279 --> 00:30:26.880
But as soon as things change, going on holiday.
00:30:27.039 --> 00:30:28.960
People overindulge in holiday.
00:30:29.200 --> 00:30:30.319
And it's sort of these.
00:30:30.880 --> 00:30:33.759
And as someone who's like super strict, like I I do.
00:30:33.920 --> 00:30:39.200
I have a strict health routine, and I like I cook at home, like shop at the farmer's market.
00:30:39.279 --> 00:30:42.079
I'm like probably a little bit too much in the other direction.
00:30:42.240 --> 00:30:46.799
But and then when you go on holiday, you can feel stress, like, oh, I didn't get my workout in today.
00:30:46.880 --> 00:30:48.400
So, like, what am I gonna eat here?
00:30:48.480 --> 00:30:49.519
And that kind of thing.
00:30:49.680 --> 00:30:53.599
So it can create stress, which also is not great for you, right?
00:30:54.480 --> 00:31:00.799
Or if you're invited somewhere, you know, there's there's there's then suddenly food, and then oh, is it is it very rude to say no?
00:31:00.960 --> 00:31:07.200
Or you know, some people will rather eat something they won't eat because they think it's it's very, very offensive.
00:31:07.680 --> 00:31:08.079
Yeah.
00:31:08.319 --> 00:31:24.240
Well, and I stopped drinking, and but I that's created problems for me though, in like relationships, or if you go out to eat for dinner, you're like, no, I don't want to drink, and people are like, oh, come on, because it's like we're all partaking in this, but you're like, Well, I'm not, and then it creates like a social oddness.
00:31:24.480 --> 00:31:25.680
Yeah, it's true.
00:31:26.799 --> 00:31:33.839
And of course, food is is a social setting for it's it's it's used for m so many social events.
00:31:34.000 --> 00:31:44.559
And and people don't go to share a meal because it's healthy, they go to share meat because social, and sort of the and and that makes all of these things I find really, really complicated.
00:31:44.720 --> 00:31:48.160
Because of course, if you celebrate, you want to have something which is delicious.
00:31:48.240 --> 00:31:54.480
And unfortunately, most foods which is delicious is also somewhere on the unhealthy scale higher than than others.
00:31:54.720 --> 00:31:56.640
Or now if it's hot, people have ice cream.
00:31:56.799 --> 00:31:59.200
Of course they have ice cream, it's it's boiling.
00:31:59.680 --> 00:31:59.839
Yeah.
00:32:00.079 --> 00:32:03.599
But then ice cream is definitely not one of the healthy foods.
00:32:04.000 --> 00:32:05.200
I eat ice cream, I do eat.
00:32:05.279 --> 00:32:06.400
I eat ice cream a lot.
00:32:06.640 --> 00:32:09.039
But I measure it, like I use measuring cups.
00:32:09.759 --> 00:32:15.359
But but you like it, you know, and ice cream, it's it's even the best ice cream, it it has flavor, it has sugar, it has fat.
00:32:15.440 --> 00:32:18.319
It's sort of the things which people generally like.
00:32:18.640 --> 00:32:21.359
So I guess what's your advice for people?
00:32:21.759 --> 00:32:27.759
Well, that I think that well, what what I always try to answer to this question because it always comes up is two things.
00:32:27.839 --> 00:32:32.559
I think the very, very boring idea, which most nutritionists tell you, is have a balanced diet.
00:32:32.640 --> 00:32:34.640
You know, eat different things.
00:32:34.880 --> 00:32:41.200
Don't always eat it, try new things, have a mix of fruit and vegetable, and and and don't just, you know, we're not we're not koalas.
00:32:41.440 --> 00:32:43.279
We don't have to rely on a single food.
00:32:43.440 --> 00:32:47.680
I think that's the one thing, sort of trying to to have balanced, not overeating.
00:32:47.839 --> 00:32:51.279
But the other one is also don't don't worry too much.
00:32:51.519 --> 00:32:52.880
Don't panic about food.
00:32:52.960 --> 00:32:55.920
I think stressing about food doesn't doesn't really help.
00:32:56.160 --> 00:33:00.240
It's not that if you if you eat the wrong thing one day, it's really disastrous.
00:33:00.400 --> 00:33:01.279
You can Yeah.
00:33:01.440 --> 00:33:01.680
Yeah.
00:33:01.920 --> 00:33:03.279
So unless of course, yeah.
00:33:04.160 --> 00:33:08.079
I mean I had an eating disorder for years, so I can totally relate to that.
00:33:08.160 --> 00:33:12.799
Like an obsession and like being deathly afraid to eat something.
00:33:12.960 --> 00:33:16.640
And I I had that, and it was very hard, super hard to overcome.
00:33:16.960 --> 00:33:18.079
Oh, I can imagine.
00:33:18.319 --> 00:33:18.720
Yes.
00:33:18.799 --> 00:33:25.440
So it's I I think maybe we all take food a little bit too seriously.
00:33:26.319 --> 00:33:27.359
In in some ways.
00:33:27.519 --> 00:33:32.960
I think I think in yes, and I think that the I think most of my nutritionist colleagues would sort of agree with a balanced approach.
00:33:33.039 --> 00:33:41.680
And I think that's yeah, yes, I know it's it's a very boring, and b it's very nonspecific because balanced means something different for everyone.
00:33:42.160 --> 00:33:43.599
I agree with you, and I like that.
00:33:43.680 --> 00:33:46.799
I think too, what kind of helped me was focusing on enjoyment.
00:33:47.119 --> 00:33:47.599
Yes.
00:33:47.759 --> 00:33:49.519
I think that's that's equally important.
00:33:49.680 --> 00:33:51.759
I think that non-stressing or enjoy it, yes.
00:33:52.000 --> 00:33:56.480
I think it's it's this seeing food as as just something which is part of life.
00:33:56.559 --> 00:33:59.839
And like just being able like, hey, uh, like I'm gonna try this.
00:33:59.920 --> 00:34:06.079
Um, this is from this culture and it's enjoyable, and like it kind of like expanding how I view my relationship with food.
00:34:06.240 --> 00:34:09.679
That's what helped me ultimately and improving that.
00:34:09.920 --> 00:34:11.119
What are you working on next?
00:34:11.280 --> 00:34:14.320
Like you're doing research or you're teaching, obviously, I guess.
00:34:14.639 --> 00:34:16.159
No, teaching teaching is over.
00:34:16.239 --> 00:34:21.360
So one one big project we're working on at the moment is to look at which is a really interesting project.
00:34:21.440 --> 00:34:25.679
So UK is funding research on transforming the UK food system.
00:34:26.159 --> 00:34:31.920
And the question is sort of how can we change the food system to support people to have a healthier diet?
00:34:32.159 --> 00:34:37.440
And it's it's actually a really fascinating project because it's about sort of disadvantaged communities.
00:34:37.760 --> 00:34:41.599
How can we make food available that's healthy?
00:34:42.239 --> 00:34:45.440
But not in the sense of, you know, here's your food, eat it.
00:34:45.519 --> 00:34:48.559
But how could one change the food system to make this easier?
00:34:48.639 --> 00:34:53.039
There's a there are there are a lot of really interesting problems, supply chain problems.
00:34:53.119 --> 00:35:00.000
You know, if you have a small shop, if they have to store fruits and vegetables and no one buys them, they lose out.
00:35:00.239 --> 00:35:02.480
But if they don't stock it, people can't buy it.
00:35:02.559 --> 00:35:04.239
So, how can you solve this problem?
00:35:04.719 --> 00:35:08.480
How can you encourage people to try foods that are unfamiliar?
00:35:08.719 --> 00:35:14.239
So we we've done this at at our university that's our catering people did this in a really nice way.
00:35:14.480 --> 00:35:17.760
Before students had to pay for a meal and then they got a meal and they ate it.
00:35:18.000 --> 00:35:23.599
They would never go for an unknown meal because you know, I don't pay for something which I don't know whether I like it.
00:35:23.840 --> 00:35:29.199
So it's now sort of more buffet style, so you pay at the entrance and you can have as much as you like from everything.
00:35:29.440 --> 00:35:31.920
And it encourages you to try new things.
00:35:32.159 --> 00:35:33.440
And that works really well.
00:35:33.519 --> 00:35:38.639
So people try it and they know if I don't like it, I haven't lost anything.
00:35:39.119 --> 00:35:39.760
I like that.
00:35:40.000 --> 00:35:45.360
You know what else I would love to know think uh diets that are healthy instead of just the Mediterranean diet?
00:35:45.519 --> 00:35:46.480
Like, you know what I mean?
00:35:46.559 --> 00:35:49.280
Because some people maybe don't want to eat the Mediterranean diet.
00:35:49.599 --> 00:35:53.360
There's the healthy Nordic diet, which is a lot of whole grains and cabbages.
00:35:53.760 --> 00:35:58.079
But like there's lots of places in the world where I don't even know like what's healthy there.
00:35:58.239 --> 00:35:59.119
Like, do you know what I mean?
00:35:59.199 --> 00:36:03.679
Like here, oh let's just drop the Mediterranean diet on like this island and tell them to eat it.
00:36:03.760 --> 00:36:05.599
Like, well, maybe you know what I mean?
00:36:05.679 --> 00:36:07.679
Like it's like, but what's healthy on that island?
00:36:07.760 --> 00:36:09.199
Like, what do they eat?
00:36:09.440 --> 00:36:09.840
You know?
00:36:10.000 --> 00:36:12.320
Like there's I think that's a good question.
00:36:12.719 --> 00:36:15.360
Oh, there are a lot of there are a lot of fascinating questions.
00:36:15.599 --> 00:36:15.920
Yeah.
00:36:16.239 --> 00:36:17.840
Do you think we'll find answers for them?
00:36:18.400 --> 00:36:19.119
Some of them.
00:36:19.360 --> 00:36:20.400
And then they will be new.
00:36:20.480 --> 00:36:24.320
I think that the the fascinating thing about science is really you always get new questions.
00:36:24.400 --> 00:36:27.599
I think every question you answer uh raises so many more.
00:36:27.920 --> 00:36:29.280
Oh yeah, I agree with that.
00:36:29.519 --> 00:36:33.199
But but food is very interesting, and I think that's a really cool project you're working on.
00:36:33.280 --> 00:36:41.199
Um I think it could it definitely uh could produce a lot of benefit for a lot of people and you can make improvements.
00:36:41.679 --> 00:36:49.599
It's it's a part of larger government program, but yes, I think that's the idea that you come up with ideas, and also that you test them and see whether they work.
00:36:49.840 --> 00:36:53.280
A lot of good ideas tend not to work for whatever reasons.
00:36:53.360 --> 00:36:59.039
You know, you come up with an idea, you try it, and you realize it doesn't work because of you know, people don't want to be told what to do.
00:36:59.199 --> 00:37:03.679
Or there's simple reasons why people don't do what you think they should do.
00:37:03.920 --> 00:37:09.679
Or you can't change the supply chain easily, or we can't so it's it's a really interesting topic.
00:37:10.000 --> 00:37:11.199
Yeah, no, definitely.
00:37:11.360 --> 00:37:14.400
I hopefully we could stay in touch because I'd love to hear how you're gonna do it.
00:37:14.559 --> 00:37:15.440
Yeah, definitely.
00:37:15.760 --> 00:37:17.280
Thank you, Gunter, for coming on.
00:37:17.360 --> 00:37:18.239
This was really interesting.
00:37:18.400 --> 00:37:19.760
I appreciate it.
00:37:20.639 --> 00:37:25.119
All right, thank you everyone for joining in for today's episode.
00:37:25.440 --> 00:37:28.960
If you are a banana lover, I hope you're not offended.
00:37:29.199 --> 00:37:30.480
I love bananas too.
00:37:30.559 --> 00:37:31.840
Um, I eat them a lot.
00:37:32.079 --> 00:37:40.559
I just exiled them from the rest of the fruit after doing this podcast, so I'm gonna have to enjoy solo bananas.
00:37:40.800 --> 00:37:43.599
Oh god, I totally should not have said that.
00:37:43.760 --> 00:37:45.840
Well, yeah, okay, we'll just leave that alone, won't we?
00:37:46.239 --> 00:37:52.800
Anyhow, please subscribe to the podcast and stick around, rate it, review it, all that jazz.
00:37:52.880 --> 00:37:54.000
I really appreciate it.
00:37:54.159 --> 00:37:56.239
It really helps the podcast grow.
00:37:56.400 --> 00:37:58.159
Uh, please subscribe to my newsletter.
00:37:58.239 --> 00:38:00.239
You can do that in the show notes.
00:38:00.480 --> 00:38:10.000
And don't forget to check out the new sections of the podcast, Eek Speakeasy and WTF Health News featuring yours truly.
00:38:10.159 --> 00:38:17.360
And let me know if you like them, you think they're stupid, you think I'm weird, you want me to add more or ditch them, you let me know.
00:38:17.599 --> 00:38:23.519
You can email me your opinion or send it through the uh fan mail option.
00:38:23.599 --> 00:38:30.400
Yeah, I have a fan mail thing, and there's actually it's a fan mail option through the podcast.
00:38:30.480 --> 00:38:34.719
And the good news is that you don't have to be a fan to send fan mail.
00:38:34.960 --> 00:38:35.599
Yeah.
00:38:36.320 --> 00:38:39.280
All right, and now it's that time for the closing quote.
00:38:39.360 --> 00:38:41.360
And boy, do I love this one.
00:38:41.599 --> 00:38:45.039
This one is from Mitch Hedberg, and if you know him, you know him.
00:38:45.119 --> 00:38:46.079
And here it is.
00:38:46.559 --> 00:38:50.639
On a traffic light, green means go, and yellow means yield.
00:38:50.800 --> 00:38:53.760
But on a banana, it's just the opposite.
00:38:54.000 --> 00:39:01.039
Green means hold on, yellow means go ahead, and red means where the hell did you get that banana?
00:39:02.800 --> 00:39:04.239
Does anyone know that, by the way?
00:39:04.639 --> 00:39:06.960
Where would you get red bananas from?
00:39:07.280 --> 00:39:13.119
And for some reason I feel like I've seen red bananas or like purple bananas.
00:39:13.440 --> 00:39:14.079
I don't know.
00:39:14.639 --> 00:39:15.039
All right.
00:39:15.280 --> 00:39:16.079
That's it for now.
00:39:16.239 --> 00:39:20.800
Have a great day wherever you are in the world, and I'll see you next time.
00:39:20.960 --> 00:39:22.159
Goodbye for now.
00:00:00.640 --> 00:00:06.000
Hello, hello everybody, and welcome to this episode of Causes or Cures.
00:00:06.160 --> 00:00:06.480
I'm Dr.
00:00:06.559 --> 00:00:09.119
Eeks, your host, and thanks for joining in.
00:00:09.359 --> 00:00:11.439
So, do you drink smoothies?
00:00:11.759 --> 00:00:13.279
This one is for you, then.
00:00:13.679 --> 00:00:21.359
Do you think adding a banana to your smoothie changes how much nutrition you absorb?
00:00:21.679 --> 00:00:25.920
In this episode, I'm joined by Professor Gunter Kunla.
00:00:26.239 --> 00:00:40.240
He's a nutrition scientist whose research sparked headlines after finding that bananas may reduce the absorption of certain beneficial compounds called flavanols when blended in smoothies.
00:00:40.399 --> 00:00:42.799
And the flavanols were in fruit, right?
00:00:42.880 --> 00:00:43.759
So think about that.
00:00:43.840 --> 00:00:46.479
We all kind of do that, mix bananas with fruits.
00:00:46.640 --> 00:00:47.679
A lot of us do.
00:00:48.159 --> 00:01:04.079
So we discuss what flavanols are, why they're important, what the study actually found, what it didn't find, whether you should stop putting bananas in your smoothies, and why the future of nutrition may be about more than just individual foods.
00:01:04.239 --> 00:01:12.159
It may also be about how foods interact with one another and improving the measurements in nutritional research, which he talks about a lot.
00:01:12.719 --> 00:01:16.799
Alright, so take a sip of your smoothie if you have one in front of you.
00:01:17.599 --> 00:01:20.879
And give me a few seconds while we connect to Gunter.
00:01:23.359 --> 00:01:33.920
All right, everybody, we are connecting with Professor Gunter Kumla, and we're gonna talk about bananas and the smoothie and what sort of things we should put in the smoothies.
00:01:34.000 --> 00:01:36.959
But first, Gunter, thanks so much for joining in.
00:01:37.280 --> 00:01:41.519
And can you tell our listeners a little bit about yourself and what you do?
00:01:42.239 --> 00:01:43.200
Well, yeah, of course.
00:01:43.280 --> 00:01:44.000
Thank you for having me.
00:01:44.159 --> 00:01:45.280
So my name is Gunther.
00:01:45.439 --> 00:01:49.680
I'm a professor of nutrition and food science at the University of Reading in the UK.
00:01:49.840 --> 00:01:52.079
So we're just a little bit outside of London.
00:01:52.239 --> 00:01:55.680
If you fly out of Heathrow, look down, that's where we are.
00:01:56.079 --> 00:02:01.359
My research interest is in a very extreme way, I'm I'm interested in measuring what people are eating.
00:02:01.519 --> 00:02:03.920
That's really my sort of research area.
00:02:04.159 --> 00:02:06.560
And from that on a lot of interesting questions come.
00:02:06.640 --> 00:02:10.159
Because if you eat something, does it also end up in your body?
00:02:10.319 --> 00:02:12.879
Is it a taken up or is it destroyed before you eat it?
00:02:12.960 --> 00:02:16.000
Because it's fine, and that's what we're going to talk about, I think.
00:02:16.240 --> 00:02:17.599
It's it's really an interesting question.
00:02:17.680 --> 00:02:20.080
You know, if you eat something, but what ends up in your body?
00:02:20.159 --> 00:02:22.879
Because that is what is really important for your health.
00:02:23.120 --> 00:02:29.280
So my my basic idea of measuring what are people eating is then sort of expands in different subquestions.
00:02:29.680 --> 00:02:31.039
Okay, that makes sense.
00:02:31.199 --> 00:02:38.560
So that kind of answers, I guess, my next question, which was how did you get interested in studying like bananas and smoothies?
00:02:38.800 --> 00:02:45.199
And I say that because that's when I was clicking on headlines, I was like, what is everybody talking about like bananas and smoothies?
00:02:45.840 --> 00:02:49.520
Yes, so that's sort of the the the second part of my research.
00:02:49.599 --> 00:02:54.639
Um have been since I think since I finished my PhD, I have been working with polyphenols.
00:02:54.879 --> 00:02:56.479
And especially flavanols.
00:02:56.639 --> 00:03:04.080
So flavanols are compounds found in mainly tea, in in a lot of pom fruits and berries.
00:03:04.719 --> 00:03:07.199
And well, I always need to be careful.
00:03:07.439 --> 00:03:12.479
I believe that they're healthy, but there's a lot of data suggesting that they're beneficial for health.
00:03:12.639 --> 00:03:14.639
I think I think that's that's something which I can say.
00:03:14.719 --> 00:03:19.120
I know in nutrition, a lot of people overclaim the health benefits of things.
00:03:19.680 --> 00:03:26.639
But there have been a number of small studies, there has been a large randomized control trial, the Cosmos study, which showed beneficial effects.
00:03:26.719 --> 00:03:29.919
So I think saying that they're probably healthy, I can.
00:03:30.240 --> 00:03:37.520
Now polyphenols have the interesting property that how do you eat a lot of people would eat berries, for example, a smoothie.
00:03:37.840 --> 00:03:41.840
So the questions come if you eat them smoothies, do they still stay in there?
00:03:42.080 --> 00:03:43.840
And then what do people put in smoothies?
00:03:44.000 --> 00:03:44.560
Bananas.
00:03:44.800 --> 00:03:45.759
I used to do that.
00:03:46.479 --> 00:03:48.879
And that that is sort of one of the funny things of doing science.
00:03:48.960 --> 00:03:55.280
So one side of your brain knows obviously banana contains phenyl oxidase, obviously banana destroys all of this.
00:03:55.599 --> 00:03:58.080
But you completely ignore this when you make a banana smoothie.
00:03:58.159 --> 00:04:03.120
You put the bananas into your berry smoothie and don't really think what is what is going to happen.
00:04:03.680 --> 00:04:09.039
And essentially, based on such a assumption, you know, how do people eat this?
00:04:09.199 --> 00:04:10.240
Came this this idea.
00:04:10.400 --> 00:04:15.120
Well, let's try what happens if we if we make a banana smoothie with berries.
00:04:15.520 --> 00:04:16.079
Okay, okay.
00:04:16.160 --> 00:04:18.000
And so let's just drive this home for our listeners.
00:04:18.079 --> 00:04:24.160
So the berries have the flavanols, which in the which there's evidence to say they're healthy for you.
00:04:24.399 --> 00:04:24.639
Yes.
00:04:24.879 --> 00:04:25.199
Okay, okay.
00:04:25.680 --> 00:04:27.519
They reduce cardiovascular disease risk.
00:04:28.399 --> 00:04:31.279
That's I think something we are reasonably certain.
00:04:31.680 --> 00:04:37.439
As I said, I'm always careful to make bold claims because in nutrition everyone does it.
00:04:37.759 --> 00:04:38.240
I know.
00:04:38.399 --> 00:04:38.800
I know.
00:04:38.959 --> 00:04:40.160
And I appreciate your approach.
00:04:40.319 --> 00:04:46.000
Okay, so you have the berries, and then you have you just mentioned something, the polyphenol oxidase.
00:04:46.240 --> 00:04:46.560
Yes.
00:04:46.800 --> 00:04:48.800
And that's in the bananas.
00:04:49.120 --> 00:04:58.560
Can you elaborate on what that is uh for the of course, that's an enzyme, and it's not just in bananas, it's in apples, for example, as well.
00:04:58.639 --> 00:04:59.839
That's what makes them brown.
00:05:00.240 --> 00:05:00.800
In what?
00:05:00.879 --> 00:05:01.199
Sorry?
00:05:01.439 --> 00:05:02.560
That makes the apples brown.
00:05:02.800 --> 00:05:03.680
Oh, the apples, right, right.
00:05:03.920 --> 00:05:07.600
But if you have an apple, you know, then you cut them open and they go brown.
00:05:07.839 --> 00:05:14.800
So the polyphenol oxidase is nothing really exotic as an enzyme, but bananas are quite high in polyphenol exodase.
00:05:15.040 --> 00:05:20.160
And apples contain polyphenols, bananas don't really contain many polyphenols or no flavonools.
00:05:20.240 --> 00:05:22.000
So it was an interesting question.
00:05:22.079 --> 00:05:32.000
If if you put the bananas in there, if you then homogenize them in a in a smoothie, do these phenol oxidase really react with the with the with the flavonools or not?
00:05:32.160 --> 00:05:38.240
It could well be, you know, you you tear everything apart and you have a system where the enzyme just dies and and nothing happens.
00:05:38.319 --> 00:05:39.680
So that was really the question.
00:05:40.079 --> 00:05:42.959
What was your hypothesis before you did the experiment?
00:05:43.439 --> 00:05:47.519
Well, I think we assumed it's going to digest them.
00:05:47.680 --> 00:05:50.639
I think the question was how much of the polyphenol will survive?
00:05:50.800 --> 00:05:55.120
Because if you put it in a blender and you you eat it, it's not a long time for it to react.
00:05:55.279 --> 00:05:58.800
Smoothies are often cold, that would inhibit a reaction.
00:05:59.040 --> 00:06:03.600
So it was more sort of the idea it's going to be less, but not necessarily nothing.
00:06:04.079 --> 00:06:10.319
Okay, can you describe for our listeners how you did your experiment, like as simply as you can?
00:06:11.199 --> 00:06:15.199
Well, in just sorry, do the birds outside disturb you?
00:06:15.680 --> 00:06:16.720
No, I like birds.
00:06:17.519 --> 00:06:20.480
Because there are a lot of magpies fighting with something.
00:06:21.199 --> 00:06:21.759
Oh, they're fighting?
00:06:21.920 --> 00:06:22.959
No, I'm a big birder.
00:06:23.040 --> 00:06:24.319
I just got a bird cam.
00:06:24.399 --> 00:06:27.279
Um, I put it up at near my parents' house and I'm obsessed.
00:06:27.519 --> 00:06:28.399
Oh, I see you.
00:06:28.560 --> 00:06:28.879
Okay.
00:06:29.040 --> 00:06:32.560
I just I just was wondering whether it interferes with your with the recording.
00:06:32.639 --> 00:06:34.000
So No, it doesn't.
00:06:34.160 --> 00:06:34.639
You're fine.
00:06:34.720 --> 00:06:37.920
I have like trucks outside, but I could quite noisy.
00:06:38.160 --> 00:06:41.199
They have young, so no, no, the the birds.
00:06:41.439 --> 00:06:46.079
Yeah, yeah, they have young and so they have sort of I think the parents despair a little bit.
00:06:46.480 --> 00:06:50.000
Oh yeah, the parents are anxiety and yeah, and it's hot there.
00:06:50.879 --> 00:06:52.399
And we don't have air conditioning.
00:06:52.560 --> 00:06:52.800
Sorry.
00:06:53.120 --> 00:06:54.560
No, well, I I don't mind.
00:06:54.639 --> 00:07:01.600
It's it's it's quite nice at the moment, but yeah, no, they're sort of you too well, but they're about four, but they're they're quite noisy.
00:07:02.480 --> 00:07:03.199
No, yeah, okay.
00:07:03.519 --> 00:07:14.399
Anyway, what's so what what we've done is is you you we've created smoothies with with bananas and with with with berries, and we let people consume them.
00:07:14.879 --> 00:07:21.680
So people drank the smoothies, and then we measured how much polyphenols end up in the body.
00:07:22.399 --> 00:07:25.839
So because that's that's really the interesting thing.
00:07:25.920 --> 00:07:34.399
Um yes, of course, we can measure it, but measuring it, uh how much is in there, it doesn't really tell you how much how much is taken up.
00:07:34.879 --> 00:07:41.279
So we actually wanted to find out we wanted to find out how much is taken up in the body.
00:07:42.319 --> 00:07:45.600
Okay, so how do you measure it in the body?
00:07:46.160 --> 00:07:52.399
So the easiest way, so that's that's where my sort of research area, and that's how do we measure intake?
00:07:52.720 --> 00:07:56.240
And the easy and traditional ways we ask people what they eat.
00:07:56.480 --> 00:08:02.800
But the problem of this is that if we ask people what they eat, they're not necessarily always remember what they're eating.
00:08:02.879 --> 00:08:12.560
So one of my research was is on sugar intake, and that was really the interesting thing is if you ask people how much sugar they eat, the heavier people are, the less sugar they eat.
00:08:12.639 --> 00:08:21.040
So you have this really strange result of high sugar intake is associated with low body mass, simply because people are under report.
00:08:21.360 --> 00:08:25.120
It would be great, you know, eat more cake and lose weight, but it doesn't work like that.
00:08:25.439 --> 00:08:27.279
And it's the same with fruit and vegetables.
00:08:27.360 --> 00:08:32.559
If you ask people, everyone eats their five a day, but that's of six, and then you measure that's less.
00:08:33.039 --> 00:08:41.120
We all want to make ourselves sound better than we are, like Oh yes, and and people generally forget, and then you sit in front of a strange person asking you what you're eating.
00:08:41.279 --> 00:08:43.440
You don't want to show off of eating the wrong thing.
00:08:43.519 --> 00:08:46.480
So and Yeah, like I eat dollars every day.
00:08:46.639 --> 00:08:47.200
Yeah, yeah.
00:08:48.399 --> 00:08:53.039
And the easy way around this is you can measure what people eat in their urine.
00:08:53.279 --> 00:09:03.600
So that's what what we generally do is you take urine samples in the perfect world, you take 24-hour urine, and you have essentially what someone excretes over day.
00:09:03.759 --> 00:09:06.399
And that works very well for a number of things.
00:09:06.559 --> 00:09:07.279
Salt intake.
00:09:07.360 --> 00:09:09.360
If you want to measure salt intake, it's the best way.
00:09:09.519 --> 00:09:15.200
People generally don't know how much salt they have in their food because you don't measure it, you just add a little bit.
00:09:15.279 --> 00:09:16.879
There's a lot in the food you buy.
00:09:17.200 --> 00:09:18.399
Sugar works that way.
00:09:18.559 --> 00:09:22.559
And we've developed uh a method to measure flavanol intake.
00:09:22.799 --> 00:09:27.840
So we measure two metabolites of flavanols, one which has a very, very short half-life.
00:09:27.919 --> 00:09:31.919
So you eat your flavanols and it will be in your urine in about an hour or so.
00:09:32.240 --> 00:09:39.440
And another one which takes well about six hours because it goes via the gut, it's metabolized in the gut, and then taken up.
00:09:39.679 --> 00:09:45.519
And we can use these two biomarkers to measure how much flavonol a person has consumed.
00:09:45.840 --> 00:09:47.360
And that is really the way.
00:09:47.440 --> 00:09:53.840
So, what we've done is we've we've taken urine samples of these people, we've taken, I think, yeah, I need to remember.
00:09:53.919 --> 00:09:57.600
We've taken urine samples of these people and measured how much did people consume?
00:09:58.080 --> 00:09:59.120
So, what did you find?
00:09:59.440 --> 00:09:59.919
Oh, go ahead.
00:10:00.320 --> 00:10:02.480
And that was really the interesting outcome.
00:10:02.639 --> 00:10:12.320
So if people consumed with banana, they it reduced massively the amount of polyphenols that they took up.
00:10:12.960 --> 00:10:15.440
That's concerning for smoothie lovers.
00:10:15.519 --> 00:10:23.600
But did you also find that if the banana was separate from the smoothie but eaten kind of around the same time, there was still less.
00:10:24.480 --> 00:10:27.759
As long as you put them together in your in your mouth, it acts.
00:10:27.840 --> 00:10:34.240
I think as soon as you you have as soon as they they come in your stomach, I think the acidity will kill the enzyme quickly enough.
00:10:34.399 --> 00:10:36.159
But yes, if you have them in your mouth.
00:10:36.320 --> 00:10:43.440
So sensible idea is don't consume bananas and berries at the same time if you want to have the flower notes.
00:10:43.600 --> 00:10:47.279
You know, some people some people have smoothies just because they taste nice and it tastes nice.
00:10:47.519 --> 00:10:50.879
Yeah, and a banana is like a nice texture to a smoothie.
00:10:51.120 --> 00:10:52.960
So yes, it does help.
00:10:53.039 --> 00:10:58.159
I think it's sort of that the big problem we had after this paper was sort of people saying, Oh, you hate bananas.
00:10:58.240 --> 00:10:59.919
No, no, no, no, we like bananas.
00:11:00.639 --> 00:11:06.720
It's really if you have if you want to have flavanoles from your smoothie, don't add bananas.
00:11:06.960 --> 00:11:09.440
If you don't, you know, it does doesn't really matter.
00:11:09.600 --> 00:11:11.759
But yes, if you do, it's a bit of a problem.
00:11:12.320 --> 00:11:15.120
So do you put bananas in your smoothies?
00:11:15.279 --> 00:11:17.279
If you do you drink smoothies?
00:11:17.600 --> 00:11:18.879
It depends.
00:11:19.279 --> 00:11:21.600
So I I like bananas in smoothie.
00:11:21.679 --> 00:11:23.200
It's it's it's quite nice.
00:11:24.000 --> 00:11:32.399
But if I want sort of if I had a lot of berries and I love berries as well, I've decided to separate them because I think it's it's it's it's sensible.
00:11:32.720 --> 00:11:34.000
Although I do it sometimes.
00:11:34.480 --> 00:11:42.559
Well, you know, it really depends on the on the taste, and and you get used to it, but because you well, yes, the banana makes it more creamy, more what is the right thing?
00:11:42.720 --> 00:11:43.679
Sort of soft.
00:11:44.159 --> 00:11:44.720
Yeah.
00:11:45.039 --> 00:11:53.039
And you know, I feel like people everyone's like, you know, bananas, potassium, like bananas have a lot of other like stuff that's good for you in them, right?
00:11:53.360 --> 00:11:53.759
Yeah.
00:11:54.080 --> 00:12:06.559
So I do, like your study made me rethink my oatmeal because I put I like have oatmeal, I like oatmeal, and like sometimes put Oat Bran on it, and then I would put berries on it, but also I would add in bananas.
00:12:06.720 --> 00:12:09.120
And now I'm like, oh my god, I've been doing it wrong.
00:12:09.519 --> 00:12:11.200
Again, it depends on why you eat it.
00:12:11.279 --> 00:12:13.679
If you eat it because you like it, that's perfectly food.
00:12:13.919 --> 00:12:15.919
Well, I want the benefits of the berries.
00:12:16.399 --> 00:12:20.080
Well, then it's probably sensible to to to separate the two.
00:12:21.600 --> 00:12:25.120
Are there foods besides bananas that are high in this enzyme?
00:12:25.279 --> 00:12:32.960
Like I know bananas got the headline, but I feel like it could be banana is is is quite quite high, and I think banana is sort of the highest.
00:12:33.200 --> 00:12:43.440
Apple is sort of the next next high one, which is has only about uh 3,000 is uh well, it's about a sixth of of what bananas have.
00:12:43.519 --> 00:12:47.600
So bananas is is really by far the highest one.
00:12:47.840 --> 00:12:53.120
And of course, apples have the advantage that they contain polyphenols, they contain flavonools already.
00:12:53.519 --> 00:12:56.080
So isn't the apple like fighting itself?
00:12:56.559 --> 00:12:58.720
Well, as long as the cells are intact, that's fine.
00:12:58.799 --> 00:13:05.360
I think that the problem is as soon as you as with the banana, as soon as you mesh up the banana, that's when the problem starts.
00:13:05.679 --> 00:13:06.240
Okay, okay.
00:13:06.320 --> 00:13:09.120
So an apple's not like a contradiction.
00:13:09.919 --> 00:13:10.159
No.
00:13:10.720 --> 00:13:18.240
There are questions now after and and we the problem with all of these things is you end up with a lot of interesting questions.
00:13:18.399 --> 00:13:20.879
And the one thing is, could you stop the reaction?
00:13:20.960 --> 00:13:28.080
You know, if you add if you make it more acidic, if you add vitamin, you know, if you add uh lemon juice on banana on apples, they stop going brown.
00:13:28.320 --> 00:13:29.519
So could you do this?
00:13:29.759 --> 00:13:36.399
Or the when when you make commercial smoothies, because they use higher pressures usually, would this make a difference?
00:13:36.639 --> 00:13:42.159
So, you know, if one could start measuring smoothies, commercial smoothies and see what's in there.
00:13:42.480 --> 00:13:46.080
But yeah, we never we never got across to these these kind of things.
00:13:46.240 --> 00:13:53.600
I think we were we were also very surprised that that paper was so popular because in one way it's a very boring simple thing.
00:13:53.679 --> 00:13:57.039
You know, banana berries, they react, you don't got any.
00:13:57.360 --> 00:14:00.879
We'd never expected that it sort of got this kind of traction.
00:14:01.360 --> 00:14:03.120
What other sort of research did you do that?
00:14:03.360 --> 00:14:06.559
You were like, I can't believe it was the banana paper that got the headlines.
00:14:06.639 --> 00:14:08.799
It should have been I don't know.
00:14:08.960 --> 00:14:21.600
Well, it's it's always, you know, there are big papers looking on the difficulties of dietary assessment, and I find them really exciting, but then then probably I have to accept that that's sort of a group of ten people who find this really exciting.
00:14:21.840 --> 00:14:28.480
And if you want to explain it to someone else, you sort of realize no people don't really find this as exciting as I do.
00:14:28.960 --> 00:14:36.879
But so in a way, with hindsight, it's obvious why the banana became sort of really, really popular, because it's it's a nice story.
00:14:37.200 --> 00:14:38.559
Yeah, it's a nice story.
00:14:38.720 --> 00:14:53.120
But to your point, I think there is sort of like a general understanding that like self-surveys aren't the maybe the best way to you know figure out nutrition or what's the best or the healthiest for us.
00:14:53.200 --> 00:14:58.399
So I think what you're doing, like there's general kind of consensus, like, oh, this'll be cool too.
00:14:58.639 --> 00:15:04.080
Like, and this is what this person's eating, and like is this what's going into this person's body, and like measuring it.
00:15:04.159 --> 00:15:06.399
It's like adding objective stuff, right?
00:15:06.799 --> 00:15:13.120
And I think that's that's sort of what what we really it's it's one of the big problems in nutrition is really measuring what people are eating.
00:15:13.279 --> 00:15:21.440
I think that's sort of where we really, really struggle because all the methods which are very detailed are at the same time very expensive.
00:15:21.759 --> 00:15:22.399
Yeah, for sure.
00:15:23.039 --> 00:15:28.000
Collecting urine samples, even collecting a spot urine, not just a 24-hour urine, it's expensive.
00:15:28.080 --> 00:15:30.000
You have to analyze them, you have to process them.
00:15:30.080 --> 00:15:34.240
If you have a questionnaire, now you can do it electronically.
00:15:34.399 --> 00:15:38.080
Now I I I learned this with a paper-based one where people typed it in.
00:15:38.240 --> 00:15:42.639
But of course, now I don't think any anything is done on paper anymore.
00:15:42.879 --> 00:15:44.000
So that's really quick.
00:15:44.080 --> 00:15:51.279
We run our studies where people use a an app and they put everything in and you can almost in real real time see what people are eating.
00:15:51.519 --> 00:15:53.840
But the problem is still we know what they tell us.
00:15:53.919 --> 00:15:56.480
We don't necessarily know what that what they actually eat.
00:15:56.879 --> 00:15:59.279
I actually write down what I eat every day.
00:15:59.360 --> 00:16:00.000
I still do it.
00:16:00.080 --> 00:16:01.200
I've been doing it for years.
00:16:01.440 --> 00:16:07.679
But I also write down like what I work at, like I have like a to-do list, like what I eat, and I, you know, work out what I do.
00:16:07.840 --> 00:16:11.440
And I'm honest about it, but I'm not like reporting to anybody, you know.
00:16:11.679 --> 00:16:14.879
So you have sort of you you have a habit of doing that.
00:16:15.120 --> 00:16:17.519
But a lot of study participants don't have this habit.
00:16:17.679 --> 00:16:21.039
They they they suddenly start doing it changes their diet.
00:16:21.200 --> 00:16:27.519
So the a lot of people who start doing food diaries also they start to lose weight because suddenly they realize what they're eating.
00:16:27.759 --> 00:16:28.080
Right.
00:16:28.399 --> 00:16:33.600
Next snacks become much more difficult because if you have to write down a snack, you think about do I really need a snack?
00:16:34.000 --> 00:16:34.639
Probably not.
00:16:34.960 --> 00:16:35.679
Yeah, that's true.
00:16:35.759 --> 00:16:36.080
Yeah.
00:16:36.240 --> 00:16:41.519
I love writing, like, because I feel like the pen and the paper just makes it more kind of like an intimate experience for me.
00:16:41.600 --> 00:16:46.159
Like it's like, okay, here I am, I'm actively writing and I'm not like distracted by my phone.
00:16:46.320 --> 00:16:46.720
I don't know.
00:16:46.879 --> 00:16:49.440
Maybe I'm old fashioned or something, but I think it helps.
00:16:50.320 --> 00:16:53.600
I don't think a lot of I I don't I know a lot of people moved away from paper.
00:16:53.759 --> 00:16:56.879
So my reason to move away from paper is that I lose things.
00:16:57.039 --> 00:16:58.720
Um I'm very bad in keeping things.
00:16:59.279 --> 00:17:02.879
I buy notebooks and I just write I write in a notebook every day.
00:17:02.960 --> 00:17:04.240
And I don't think that many people do.
00:17:04.319 --> 00:17:07.839
I think it's like I'm probably a little weird, but I am weird, but yeah.
00:17:08.160 --> 00:17:16.079
I I I tried to send a notebook here and a notebook there, and then another one there, and then you forget it, and um I'm yeah, I'm not organized enough for that.
00:17:16.400 --> 00:17:29.359
Yeah, I just for some reason I still write things down and outline story ideas, but then I I do lose things, and then it looks my notebook looks like a maze, and I have to try to figure it out too, like a a treasure map from like the 1800s or something.
00:17:29.440 --> 00:17:31.279
But um But it's organized.
00:17:32.400 --> 00:17:33.279
There we are.
00:17:34.240 --> 00:17:40.000
So your paper got a lot of media attention, and I'm curious, like, did you how was that for you?
00:17:40.079 --> 00:17:42.880
Like, did you get an email that made you laugh?
00:17:42.960 --> 00:17:47.440
Or or like did you read an article where you're like, oh man, this person really got this wrong?
00:17:48.079 --> 00:17:49.519
No, not well.
00:17:49.680 --> 00:17:55.680
Whenever you publish something on nutrition, you get sort of a set of emails of people who have completely different ideas.
00:17:55.759 --> 00:18:02.400
So there are a lot of people who believe that fruits are are dangerous anyway, and you should be banned and no one should eat fruits.
00:18:02.559 --> 00:18:03.759
They contain too much sugar.
00:18:03.920 --> 00:18:08.720
So you you always whenever you write something about fruits, you will be told you should never eat fruits.
00:18:08.799 --> 00:18:10.160
They're very, very bad.
00:18:10.400 --> 00:18:14.799
I mean, I'm sure you get emails like that from people who will completely disagree with what you do.
00:18:14.960 --> 00:18:18.559
And then write many pages about why this is actually, you know.
00:18:19.039 --> 00:18:19.200
Yeah.
00:18:19.359 --> 00:18:22.079
I've I've some after some episodes I've gotten that.
00:18:22.240 --> 00:18:25.359
Um I mean, and I just let people let them live.
00:18:25.920 --> 00:18:26.160
Yeah.
00:18:26.720 --> 00:18:29.759
But the dangerousness of fruits is something I didn't appreciate before.
00:18:29.920 --> 00:18:33.119
So it's really something that should be locked away and not sold.
00:18:33.519 --> 00:18:33.839
Too much.
00:18:34.880 --> 00:18:36.880
But isn't it what what are your thoughts on that?
00:18:36.960 --> 00:18:37.839
Like what are your thoughts on?
00:18:38.240 --> 00:18:41.839
I think it's a little bit excessive because yes, fruits contain sugar.
00:18:42.000 --> 00:18:42.319
Yeah.
00:18:42.559 --> 00:18:45.200
But they also contain things that are healthy.
00:18:45.359 --> 00:18:48.240
And we also eat food just because it tastes nice.
00:18:48.480 --> 00:18:57.200
A watermelon might not be the most important fruit fruit from nutrients, but if it's really, really hot, it's really, really nice to have an ice cold watermelon.
00:18:57.680 --> 00:18:58.880
Watermelon on a hot day.
00:18:58.960 --> 00:18:59.920
I had yeah, just the other day.
00:19:00.000 --> 00:19:01.279
I'm gonna have it this week.
00:19:01.599 --> 00:19:06.079
Yes, so and that's how you guys in Europe survive with no air conditioning.
00:19:06.319 --> 00:19:06.480
Okay.
00:19:07.599 --> 00:19:14.400
But I I think people are a little bit too obsessed with food sometimes and be too worried about you know, eat eating it.
00:19:14.559 --> 00:19:18.799
Doesn't it have to be that every food has to be the perfect healthy food.
00:19:19.039 --> 00:19:19.359
Yeah.
00:19:20.000 --> 00:19:25.200
Reasons why people like to indulge in food, and I think it's because food is so much more than just just eating.
00:19:25.599 --> 00:19:26.319
I agree with you.
00:19:26.480 --> 00:19:33.599
And really, I go strawberry picking, eat strawberries, like I I like I I eat fruit, but I don't forgive me.
00:19:33.839 --> 00:19:37.839
Oh yeah, yeah, I think I think most people eat fruit, but they I think people are very vocal.
00:19:37.920 --> 00:19:41.839
They they then these are also the people who then start to actually write.
00:19:42.079 --> 00:19:46.799
You know, you have to you have to sit down, you have to start to write an email, you have to think about it.
00:19:47.039 --> 00:19:48.480
It takes a lot of effort.
00:19:48.880 --> 00:19:49.279
Yeah.
00:19:49.519 --> 00:19:51.680
I just figure like it's a trend, you know.
00:19:51.759 --> 00:20:00.480
Like I I try to eat generally healthy, and I'm not gonna like kill myself over like the tenth ingredient and something, and you know, I I don't know.
00:20:00.559 --> 00:20:01.920
What are your thoughts on organic?
00:20:02.000 --> 00:20:03.119
I'm curious.
00:20:03.680 --> 00:20:10.000
I think health-wise, well, the first thing I have to say is I don't know the US food system well enough.
00:20:10.240 --> 00:20:14.319
And I think you have different rules, different regulations on organic and something.
00:20:14.960 --> 00:20:16.400
We have more chemicals than you guys.
00:20:16.799 --> 00:20:21.359
But you also have very different so the main part of the US I know is California.
00:20:21.440 --> 00:20:22.880
And I know very small parts of it.
00:20:23.759 --> 00:20:27.599
Yeah, like basically, okay, that's like not really America.
00:20:27.759 --> 00:20:30.079
I mean it's America, but it's not like America.
00:20:30.400 --> 00:20:31.920
Yeah, but I love the food dads.
00:20:32.079 --> 00:20:32.880
It's always very nice.
00:20:33.200 --> 00:20:36.400
But there the regulations in the US are just different.
00:20:36.480 --> 00:20:38.559
They're different rules, different approaches to things.
00:20:38.720 --> 00:20:44.480
I don't really know much about so all I can comment is sort of the UK version.
00:20:44.960 --> 00:20:50.400
I don't think there's much benefit here from organic from a health point of view.
00:20:50.799 --> 00:21:01.599
There might be in some ways of production, there might be more compounds in there because a lot of the healthy or what we believe healthy compounds are for made by the plant to protect itself from pests.
00:21:01.680 --> 00:21:03.839
So if you don't use pesticides, there will be more.
00:21:04.400 --> 00:21:07.680
But then in Europe, again, that's why I say I don't know how it's in the US.
00:21:07.759 --> 00:21:12.160
In Europe, uh organic farmers for some products can use copper as a as a pesticide.
00:21:12.480 --> 00:21:13.039
Copper.
00:21:13.359 --> 00:21:14.240
Copper, yes.
00:21:14.480 --> 00:21:16.960
It's the only one which is permitted for some.
00:21:17.119 --> 00:21:19.599
And copper is not necessarily incredibly healthy.
00:21:19.759 --> 00:21:23.039
So I don't know whether it's it's such a huge benefit.
00:21:23.359 --> 00:21:36.079
I think where where where I can understand people buying organic is is of course if they think animal welfare, animals are treated better, uh plants may be treat well, plants may be treated better, but less intensive.
00:21:36.319 --> 00:21:39.200
I I can see the reason from a from a more ethical point of view.
00:21:39.279 --> 00:21:40.799
They say, No, I want to do that.
00:21:41.119 --> 00:21:43.839
From a health point of view, I'm I'm I'm not sure.
00:21:44.640 --> 00:21:49.440
Very often, of course, uh good food is not just organic, but that there are other things as well.
00:21:49.519 --> 00:21:54.720
It's sort of some kind of special breed or something, and a farmer would then add organic to it as well.
00:21:55.359 --> 00:21:59.039
So, yes, organic is not necessarily a a standalone entity.
00:22:00.160 --> 00:22:06.720
It's combined with many things, but very often I'm I'm not as as convinced that it's healthier.
00:22:06.960 --> 00:22:08.720
As I said, there are other reasons to buy it.
00:22:08.799 --> 00:22:12.480
And I I think I would agree more with the other reasons than the healthiness.
00:22:12.799 --> 00:22:13.039
Yeah.
00:22:13.119 --> 00:22:23.440
I think and there's an interesting kind of like ethical production and you know maintaining the earth and like you said, treating animals well and that kind of thing.
00:22:23.519 --> 00:22:26.079
So I think there's a a movement for that.
00:22:26.640 --> 00:22:30.160
But what I mean, there's a lot of buzzwords in nutrition.
00:22:30.480 --> 00:22:33.039
And have fallen for many of them.
00:22:33.279 --> 00:22:38.640
Like, oh, all natural, all this, all the like, you know, immune boosting, that kind of thing.
00:22:38.960 --> 00:22:46.000
But I guess like like ultra-processed, that's one I think a lot of people can land on as not very good for you, right?
00:22:46.079 --> 00:22:46.480
Or no.
00:22:47.599 --> 00:22:49.359
That's where I'm sort of a bit about.
00:22:49.759 --> 00:22:52.240
I I'm not very convinced by ultra-processed food.
00:22:52.640 --> 00:22:54.640
You're not convinced that it's bad for you?
00:22:55.119 --> 00:22:56.960
Well, I'm not convinced by the by the category.
00:22:57.200 --> 00:23:03.440
Well, I'm not convinced that it's bad, but for very for a reason which is really goes back to my actual research area.
00:23:03.759 --> 00:23:06.799
Because we can't measure how much ultra-processed food we eat.
00:23:07.279 --> 00:23:08.160
Oh, interesting.
00:23:08.319 --> 00:23:08.480
Okay.
00:23:09.200 --> 00:23:18.799
Because so if you look at the questionnaires, so the Harvard questionnaire, for example, used, it combines so many foods, some of which are clearly ultra-processed, some of which aren't.
00:23:19.119 --> 00:23:24.160
In the UK, we have a lot, the majority of UK bread is made with a Jolley with process.
00:23:24.400 --> 00:23:29.759
So based on the classification is ultra-processed, but not all bread in the UK is ultra-processed.
00:23:30.079 --> 00:23:33.759
But simply by saying, well, all bread in the UK is ultra-processed.
00:23:33.920 --> 00:23:38.799
UK is high intake of ultra-processed food just simply by declaring all bread is ultra-processed.
00:23:39.759 --> 00:23:47.680
We have headlines saying almost all children get ultra-processed food as packed lunch to school because they get sandwiches.
00:23:47.839 --> 00:23:52.319
If I make a sandwich to my children, they get ultra-processed food because it's bread.
00:23:52.799 --> 00:23:55.920
And I think that sort of makes it really, really complicated.
00:23:56.160 --> 00:24:00.000
And then we have a category where we include sugar sweetened beverages.
00:24:00.480 --> 00:24:03.839
I don't think anyone disagrees that sugar sweetened beverages are not healthy.
00:24:04.480 --> 00:24:09.680
If you put this in a category, it's clear that the category will become less healthy just simply by by adding this.
00:24:10.079 --> 00:24:19.359
And and sort of that's my that's my problem with the concept is we have created a group of foods which are incredibly diverse.
00:24:19.680 --> 00:24:27.920
You know, we have fish fingers, which is fish in breadcrumbs, we have bread, we have soft drinks, we have any kind of multicolored sweets.
00:24:28.160 --> 00:24:30.799
And we put this all together and say this is all unhealthy.
00:24:31.119 --> 00:24:37.119
And I'm not sure this really helps to to create a better policy to make things healthy.
00:24:37.599 --> 00:24:43.119
Because if you tell people to avoid an incredibly large group, people will just say, Well, I can't do that.
00:24:43.440 --> 00:24:49.759
If you tell people, look, you should avoid this, this, or this is healthy, and this is unhealthy, it probably works better.
00:24:50.160 --> 00:24:55.279
But the main problem I have with the category is really we can't measure intake very well.
00:24:56.000 --> 00:24:58.160
It's it's really that that that boring thing.
00:24:58.319 --> 00:25:00.160
How do you know what people are eating?
00:25:00.640 --> 00:25:08.480
Especially because it's a group which contains so many unhealthy foods that we know they have an adverse effect on health.
00:25:09.200 --> 00:25:11.599
Is it just those foods or is it all the others?
00:25:11.920 --> 00:25:13.359
So yeah, bread bread.
00:25:13.839 --> 00:25:16.799
I I don't think bread really causes a lot of ill health.
00:25:17.519 --> 00:25:22.319
It's not really the smoking gun of ill health, but it's a part of ultra process.
00:25:22.799 --> 00:25:24.400
So is this really helping?
00:25:24.640 --> 00:25:29.759
Or would it be better to have a category which is sort of more focused on on specific problems?
00:25:29.920 --> 00:25:35.519
And that's that's the interesting question, which I think unfortunately gets gets ignored.
00:25:35.839 --> 00:25:37.920
And that is the processing in health.
00:25:38.480 --> 00:25:44.160
Because I'm I wouldn't be surprised if there are processes which are more beneficial and less beneficial to health.
00:25:44.480 --> 00:25:51.039
If you homogenize something, it's easier to eat, you're much easier to overconsume, which is shown in some ultra-process studies.
00:25:51.200 --> 00:25:53.759
But if you make a smoothie, you do exactly the same thing.
00:25:53.839 --> 00:25:56.640
You homogenize something and it's it's it's quicker to consume.
00:25:57.359 --> 00:26:11.440
So should we think about more specific processes or textures of food instead of having this huge category which which is so heterogeneous that you can't really easily say this is the problem or this is the problem.
00:26:12.160 --> 00:26:14.960
And I think that sort of gets lost a bit.
00:26:15.440 --> 00:26:21.680
And then these the there's sort of the other aspect is is of course the whole ultra-processed food discussion is also one about food systems.
00:26:22.559 --> 00:26:28.720
So that uh healthier foods and unhealthier foods disappear for uh from shops are replaced by other foods.
00:26:29.039 --> 00:26:31.759
And that's again a very complicated question.
00:26:31.839 --> 00:26:37.119
And I think by putting this all in one headline, it's really difficult to take apart.
00:26:37.440 --> 00:26:44.160
And in the end, we don't know, but I think that the big thing is we don't know will it be better to get people to eat healthily or not.
00:26:44.559 --> 00:26:49.599
Geez, so with that said, everyone go out there and uh eat.
00:26:49.759 --> 00:26:51.119
Um, not sure.
00:26:52.400 --> 00:26:59.119
I think the big problem is really how do we convince people what a healthy food what a healthy diet should be?
00:26:59.279 --> 00:27:02.000
And I think that's that's that's sort of the the core problem.
00:27:02.559 --> 00:27:07.279
And I think if I had a solution, well that would be great, but I don't think there is an easy solution.
00:27:07.440 --> 00:27:09.519
We have front-of-pack labelings.
00:27:09.680 --> 00:27:14.160
I think the US started with very detailed uh labels of ingredients.
00:27:15.039 --> 00:27:20.160
I remember when I came to the US when I was young and was always impressed there was so much detail on a food package.
00:27:20.559 --> 00:27:22.319
Yeah, well we even have more.
00:27:22.480 --> 00:27:34.160
Like, and then restaurants are putting like calorie content, and we're trying to get the new secretary is trying to get specific ingredients out of certain foods.
00:27:34.559 --> 00:27:35.599
Yes, that's that's what I said.
00:27:35.759 --> 00:27:39.039
The US system is is quite different from from the from the European system.
00:27:39.440 --> 00:27:42.079
Well, it's and it's a massive interest right now in the US.
00:27:42.240 --> 00:27:47.119
Like eating real food has become a not like a national slogan.
00:27:47.680 --> 00:27:48.079
Yeah.
00:27:48.319 --> 00:28:01.599
Of course we have like don't uh there's people who don't eat carbs, there's people who just do keto, and there's all sorts of but a big problem is always on and well, we'll see whether someone manages to find a solution.
00:28:01.680 --> 00:28:06.240
But a big problem is has always been have always been campaigns to encourage people to eat more healthily.
00:28:06.799 --> 00:28:09.599
And I don't think whether there was one was what really worked.
00:28:09.759 --> 00:28:11.440
In in the UK, was it last year?
00:28:11.519 --> 00:28:13.920
The House of Lords had a committee on obesity.
00:28:14.240 --> 00:28:20.400
And I think they found I can't remember the actual number, but I think there have been 600 government initiatives to deal with obesity.
00:28:21.039 --> 00:28:23.119
And and none of it really worked.
00:28:23.200 --> 00:28:34.799
And I think that's sort of the fundamental problem is there are a lot of good ideas, but somehow they never get people to to really change, change their diet sufficiently.
00:28:35.119 --> 00:28:43.200
And I I I don't know whether ultra-processed food will just be uh another new idea, which in five years' time there will be something else or not.
00:28:43.680 --> 00:28:51.839
I remember maybe uh focusing on a villain, but you know, people are it may not uh cause people to eat healthy overall.
00:28:52.319 --> 00:28:53.599
I think that's that's the thing.
00:28:53.759 --> 00:28:57.920
Getting people to eat healthily is really, really difficult.
00:28:58.480 --> 00:29:04.799
And I think that the comparison with smoking is is is a I find problematic because you don't have to smoke to survive.
00:29:04.880 --> 00:29:07.759
You can easily survive without smoking, but you have to eat.
00:29:08.160 --> 00:29:08.880
You have to eat.
00:29:09.359 --> 00:29:15.440
But don't you think there's like some you know, people say addict like isn't there like an addictive property to certain foods?
00:29:15.519 --> 00:29:16.720
Or what's your take on that?
00:29:16.960 --> 00:29:26.480
Because you know, like you like I can't stop eating ramen noodles, I can't stop eating this ice cream and yes, but you can't stop watching binge watch people do binge watching.
00:29:26.559 --> 00:29:29.359
Is it addic I think addictive is a complicated word.
00:29:29.519 --> 00:29:35.279
I'm not I think that's something I have to pass because I'm not a psychologist to know enough about that.
00:29:35.680 --> 00:29:40.640
But it's yes, and people eat for so many, so many uh reasons.
00:29:40.720 --> 00:29:45.680
I like to sometimes show in in in lectures a slide of don't you I assume you know Bridget Jones?
00:29:46.160 --> 00:29:46.880
Oh yeah.
00:29:47.200 --> 00:29:48.720
Where she eats the ice cream.
00:29:48.960 --> 00:29:49.759
Yeah, yeah, yeah.
00:29:50.000 --> 00:29:55.279
Yeah, you know, people eat for I'm sure she does not eat the ice cream because she thinks it's very healthy.
00:29:55.680 --> 00:29:56.000
Right.
00:29:56.079 --> 00:29:56.240
Yeah.
00:29:56.559 --> 00:29:58.880
Just sort of the you know, sometimes it's comfort food.
00:29:58.960 --> 00:30:01.440
So we eat for so many different reasons.
00:30:01.759 --> 00:30:02.000
Yeah.
00:30:02.240 --> 00:30:08.400
And putting on that this and you have to eat, you know, all diet needs to be healthy, it's really hard.
00:30:08.559 --> 00:30:18.319
I think food is food is so essential to to our life that it will always be difficult to get people to to change the diet in a very meaningful way.
00:30:18.720 --> 00:30:19.599
It's very easy.
00:30:19.680 --> 00:30:23.119
If you if you have an organized, structured life, it's easy.
00:30:23.279 --> 00:30:26.880
But as soon as things change, going on holiday.
00:30:27.039 --> 00:30:28.960
People overindulge in holiday.
00:30:29.200 --> 00:30:30.319
And it's sort of these.
00:30:30.880 --> 00:30:33.759
And as someone who's like super strict, like I I do.
00:30:33.920 --> 00:30:39.200
I have a strict health routine, and I like I cook at home, like shop at the farmer's market.
00:30:39.279 --> 00:30:42.079
I'm like probably a little bit too much in the other direction.
00:30:42.240 --> 00:30:46.799
But and then when you go on holiday, you can feel stress, like, oh, I didn't get my workout in today.
00:30:46.880 --> 00:30:48.400
So, like, what am I gonna eat here?
00:30:48.480 --> 00:30:49.519
And that kind of thing.
00:30:49.680 --> 00:30:53.599
So it can create stress, which also is not great for you, right?
00:30:54.480 --> 00:31:00.799
Or if you're invited somewhere, you know, there's there's there's then suddenly food, and then oh, is it is it very rude to say no?
00:31:00.960 --> 00:31:07.200
Or you know, some people will rather eat something they won't eat because they think it's it's very, very offensive.
00:31:07.680 --> 00:31:08.079
Yeah.
00:31:08.319 --> 00:31:24.240
Well, and I stopped drinking, and but I that's created problems for me though, in like relationships, or if you go out to eat for dinner, you're like, no, I don't want to drink, and people are like, oh, come on, because it's like we're all partaking in this, but you're like, Well, I'm not, and then it creates like a social oddness.
00:31:24.480 --> 00:31:25.680
Yeah, it's true.
00:31:26.799 --> 00:31:33.839
And of course, food is is a social setting for it's it's it's used for m so many social events.
00:31:34.000 --> 00:31:44.559
And and people don't go to share a meal because it's healthy, they go to share meat because social, and sort of the and and that makes all of these things I find really, really complicated.
00:31:44.720 --> 00:31:48.160
Because of course, if you celebrate, you want to have something which is delicious.
00:31:48.240 --> 00:31:54.480
And unfortunately, most foods which is delicious is also somewhere on the unhealthy scale higher than than others.
00:31:54.720 --> 00:31:56.640
Or now if it's hot, people have ice cream.
00:31:56.799 --> 00:31:59.200
Of course they have ice cream, it's it's boiling.
00:31:59.680 --> 00:31:59.839
Yeah.
00:32:00.079 --> 00:32:03.599
But then ice cream is definitely not one of the healthy foods.
00:32:04.000 --> 00:32:05.200
I eat ice cream, I do eat.
00:32:05.279 --> 00:32:06.400
I eat ice cream a lot.
00:32:06.640 --> 00:32:09.039
But I measure it, like I use measuring cups.
00:32:09.759 --> 00:32:15.359
But but you like it, you know, and ice cream, it's it's even the best ice cream, it it has flavor, it has sugar, it has fat.
00:32:15.440 --> 00:32:18.319
It's sort of the things which people generally like.
00:32:18.640 --> 00:32:21.359
So I guess what's your advice for people?
00:32:21.759 --> 00:32:27.759
Well, that I think that well, what what I always try to answer to this question because it always comes up is two things.
00:32:27.839 --> 00:32:32.559
I think the very, very boring idea, which most nutritionists tell you, is have a balanced diet.
00:32:32.640 --> 00:32:34.640
You know, eat different things.
00:32:34.880 --> 00:32:41.200
Don't always eat it, try new things, have a mix of fruit and vegetable, and and and don't just, you know, we're not we're not koalas.
00:32:41.440 --> 00:32:43.279
We don't have to rely on a single food.
00:32:43.440 --> 00:32:47.680
I think that's the one thing, sort of trying to to have balanced, not overeating.
00:32:47.839 --> 00:32:51.279
But the other one is also don't don't worry too much.
00:32:51.519 --> 00:32:52.880
Don't panic about food.
00:32:52.960 --> 00:32:55.920
I think stressing about food doesn't doesn't really help.
00:32:56.160 --> 00:33:00.240
It's not that if you if you eat the wrong thing one day, it's really disastrous.
00:33:00.400 --> 00:33:01.279
You can Yeah.
00:33:01.440 --> 00:33:01.680
Yeah.
00:33:01.920 --> 00:33:03.279
So unless of course, yeah.
00:33:04.160 --> 00:33:08.079
I mean I had an eating disorder for years, so I can totally relate to that.
00:33:08.160 --> 00:33:12.799
Like an obsession and like being deathly afraid to eat something.
00:33:12.960 --> 00:33:16.640
And I I had that, and it was very hard, super hard to overcome.
00:33:16.960 --> 00:33:18.079
Oh, I can imagine.
00:33:18.319 --> 00:33:18.720
Yes.
00:33:18.799 --> 00:33:25.440
So it's I I think maybe we all take food a little bit too seriously.
00:33:26.319 --> 00:33:27.359
In in some ways.
00:33:27.519 --> 00:33:32.960
I think I think in yes, and I think that the I think most of my nutritionist colleagues would sort of agree with a balanced approach.
00:33:33.039 --> 00:33:41.680
And I think that's yeah, yes, I know it's it's a very boring, and b it's very nonspecific because balanced means something different for everyone.
00:33:42.160 --> 00:33:43.599
I agree with you, and I like that.
00:33:43.680 --> 00:33:46.799
I think too, what kind of helped me was focusing on enjoyment.
00:33:47.119 --> 00:33:47.599
Yes.
00:33:47.759 --> 00:33:49.519
I think that's that's equally important.
00:33:49.680 --> 00:33:51.759
I think that non-stressing or enjoy it, yes.
00:33:52.000 --> 00:33:56.480
I think it's it's this seeing food as as just something which is part of life.
00:33:56.559 --> 00:33:59.839
And like just being able like, hey, uh, like I'm gonna try this.
00:33:59.920 --> 00:34:06.079
Um, this is from this culture and it's enjoyable, and like it kind of like expanding how I view my relationship with food.
00:34:06.240 --> 00:34:09.679
That's what helped me ultimately and improving that.
00:34:09.920 --> 00:34:11.119
What are you working on next?
00:34:11.280 --> 00:34:14.320
Like you're doing research or you're teaching, obviously, I guess.
00:34:14.639 --> 00:34:16.159
No, teaching teaching is over.
00:34:16.239 --> 00:34:21.360
So one one big project we're working on at the moment is to look at which is a really interesting project.
00:34:21.440 --> 00:34:25.679
So UK is funding research on transforming the UK food system.
00:34:26.159 --> 00:34:31.920
And the question is sort of how can we change the food system to support people to have a healthier diet?
00:34:32.159 --> 00:34:37.440
And it's it's actually a really fascinating project because it's about sort of disadvantaged communities.
00:34:37.760 --> 00:34:41.599
How can we make food available that's healthy?
00:34:42.239 --> 00:34:45.440
But not in the sense of, you know, here's your food, eat it.
00:34:45.519 --> 00:34:48.559
But how could one change the food system to make this easier?
00:34:48.639 --> 00:34:53.039
There's a there are there are a lot of really interesting problems, supply chain problems.
00:34:53.119 --> 00:35:00.000
You know, if you have a small shop, if they have to store fruits and vegetables and no one buys them, they lose out.
00:35:00.239 --> 00:35:02.480
But if they don't stock it, people can't buy it.
00:35:02.559 --> 00:35:04.239
So, how can you solve this problem?
00:35:04.719 --> 00:35:08.480
How can you encourage people to try foods that are unfamiliar?
00:35:08.719 --> 00:35:14.239
So we we've done this at at our university that's our catering people did this in a really nice way.
00:35:14.480 --> 00:35:17.760
Before students had to pay for a meal and then they got a meal and they ate it.
00:35:18.000 --> 00:35:23.599
They would never go for an unknown meal because you know, I don't pay for something which I don't know whether I like it.
00:35:23.840 --> 00:35:29.199
So it's now sort of more buffet style, so you pay at the entrance and you can have as much as you like from everything.
00:35:29.440 --> 00:35:31.920
And it encourages you to try new things.
00:35:32.159 --> 00:35:33.440
And that works really well.
00:35:33.519 --> 00:35:38.639
So people try it and they know if I don't like it, I haven't lost anything.
00:35:39.119 --> 00:35:39.760
I like that.
00:35:40.000 --> 00:35:45.360
You know what else I would love to know think uh diets that are healthy instead of just the Mediterranean diet?
00:35:45.519 --> 00:35:46.480
Like, you know what I mean?
00:35:46.559 --> 00:35:49.280
Because some people maybe don't want to eat the Mediterranean diet.
00:35:49.599 --> 00:35:53.360
There's the healthy Nordic diet, which is a lot of whole grains and cabbages.
00:35:53.760 --> 00:35:58.079
But like there's lots of places in the world where I don't even know like what's healthy there.
00:35:58.239 --> 00:35:59.119
Like, do you know what I mean?
00:35:59.199 --> 00:36:03.679
Like here, oh let's just drop the Mediterranean diet on like this island and tell them to eat it.
00:36:03.760 --> 00:36:05.599
Like, well, maybe you know what I mean?
00:36:05.679 --> 00:36:07.679
Like it's like, but what's healthy on that island?
00:36:07.760 --> 00:36:09.199
Like, what do they eat?
00:36:09.440 --> 00:36:09.840
You know?
00:36:10.000 --> 00:36:12.320
Like there's I think that's a good question.
00:36:12.719 --> 00:36:15.360
Oh, there are a lot of there are a lot of fascinating questions.
00:36:15.599 --> 00:36:15.920
Yeah.
00:36:16.239 --> 00:36:17.840
Do you think we'll find answers for them?
00:36:18.400 --> 00:36:19.119
Some of them.
00:36:19.360 --> 00:36:20.400
And then they will be new.
00:36:20.480 --> 00:36:24.320
I think that the the fascinating thing about science is really you always get new questions.
00:36:24.400 --> 00:36:27.599
I think every question you answer uh raises so many more.
00:36:27.920 --> 00:36:29.280
Oh yeah, I agree with that.
00:36:29.519 --> 00:36:33.199
But but food is very interesting, and I think that's a really cool project you're working on.
00:36:33.280 --> 00:36:41.199
Um I think it could it definitely uh could produce a lot of benefit for a lot of people and you can make improvements.
00:36:41.679 --> 00:36:49.599
It's it's a part of larger government program, but yes, I think that's the idea that you come up with ideas, and also that you test them and see whether they work.
00:36:49.840 --> 00:36:53.280
A lot of good ideas tend not to work for whatever reasons.
00:36:53.360 --> 00:36:59.039
You know, you come up with an idea, you try it, and you realize it doesn't work because of you know, people don't want to be told what to do.
00:36:59.199 --> 00:37:03.679
Or there's simple reasons why people don't do what you think they should do.
00:37:03.920 --> 00:37:09.679
Or you can't change the supply chain easily, or we can't so it's it's a really interesting topic.
00:37:10.000 --> 00:37:11.199
Yeah, no, definitely.
00:37:11.360 --> 00:37:14.400
I hopefully we could stay in touch because I'd love to hear how you're gonna do it.
00:37:14.559 --> 00:37:15.440
Yeah, definitely.
00:37:15.760 --> 00:37:17.280
Thank you, Gunter, for coming on.
00:37:17.360 --> 00:37:18.239
This was really interesting.
00:37:18.400 --> 00:37:19.760
I appreciate it.
00:37:20.639 --> 00:37:25.119
All right, thank you everyone for joining in for today's episode.
00:37:25.440 --> 00:37:28.960
If you are a banana lover, I hope you're not offended.
00:37:29.199 --> 00:37:30.480
I love bananas too.
00:37:30.559 --> 00:37:31.840
Um, I eat them a lot.
00:37:32.079 --> 00:37:40.559
I just exiled them from the rest of the fruit after doing this podcast, so I'm gonna have to enjoy solo bananas.
00:37:40.800 --> 00:37:43.599
Oh god, I totally should not have said that.
00:37:43.760 --> 00:37:45.840
Well, yeah, okay, we'll just leave that alone, won't we?
00:37:46.239 --> 00:37:52.800
Anyhow, please subscribe to the podcast and stick around, rate it, review it, all that jazz.
00:37:52.880 --> 00:37:54.000
I really appreciate it.
00:37:54.159 --> 00:37:56.239
It really helps the podcast grow.
00:37:56.400 --> 00:37:58.159
Uh, please subscribe to my newsletter.
00:37:58.239 --> 00:38:00.239
You can do that in the show notes.
00:38:00.480 --> 00:38:10.000
And don't forget to check out the new sections of the podcast, Eek Speakeasy and WTF Health News featuring yours truly.
00:38:10.159 --> 00:38:17.360
And let me know if you like them, you think they're stupid, you think I'm weird, you want me to add more or ditch them, you let me know.
00:38:17.599 --> 00:38:23.519
You can email me your opinion or send it through the uh fan mail option.
00:38:23.599 --> 00:38:30.400
Yeah, I have a fan mail thing, and there's actually it's a fan mail option through the podcast.
00:38:30.480 --> 00:38:34.719
And the good news is that you don't have to be a fan to send fan mail.
00:38:34.960 --> 00:38:35.599
Yeah.
00:38:36.320 --> 00:38:39.280
All right, and now it's that time for the closing quote.
00:38:39.360 --> 00:38:41.360
And boy, do I love this one.
00:38:41.599 --> 00:38:45.039
This one is from Mitch Hedberg, and if you know him, you know him.
00:38:45.119 --> 00:38:46.079
And here it is.
00:38:46.559 --> 00:38:50.639
On a traffic light, green means go, and yellow means yield.
00:38:50.800 --> 00:38:53.760
But on a banana, it's just the opposite.
00:38:54.000 --> 00:39:01.039
Green means hold on, yellow means go ahead, and red means where the hell did you get that banana?
00:39:02.800 --> 00:39:04.239
Does anyone know that, by the way?
00:39:04.639 --> 00:39:06.960
Where would you get red bananas from?
00:39:07.280 --> 00:39:13.119
And for some reason I feel like I've seen red bananas or like purple bananas.
00:39:13.440 --> 00:39:14.079
I don't know.
00:39:14.639 --> 00:39:15.039
All right.
00:39:15.280 --> 00:39:16.079
That's it for now.
00:39:16.239 --> 00:39:20.800
Have a great day wherever you are in the world, and I'll see you next time.
00:39:20.960 --> 00:39:22.159
Goodbye for now.
