"Article 6 will be critical for international climate cooperation," Ritika Tewari, Carbon Markets Expert

WEBVTT
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The ask is not weaker governance. It is pragmatic
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implementation and clarity of processes for actual
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transactions to have. For an investor and a developer,
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selectivity is manageable. A country being selective
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is actually good for business. What's less manageable
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is uncertainty, which is much harder to price.
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Visit carbonherald .com and sign up today for
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our weekly newsletter. Welcome to the Carbon
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Stations podcast, where we speak to some of the
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leading figures in the emerging carbon industry.
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Today, we're joined by Ritika Tiwari, Article
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6 Working Group Lead for the Project Developer
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Forum and Associate Director, Compliance Markets
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and Article 6 at South Pole. Ritika has more
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than 12 years of experience across carbon markets,
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the UNFCCC process and international climate
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policy. Ritika, welcome to the podcast. It's
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great to have you with us. Before we get into
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the technical side of things, we usually like
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to start by learning a little more about our
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guests and what essentially brought them to this
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industry. So I mentioned that you spent 12 years
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working across carbon markets and international
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climate policy. Could you tell us a little about
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your journey and how you came to specialize in
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Article 6? Certainly. And thank you for having
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me, Viola. I appreciate the invitation. I actually
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have a background in natural sciences. I started
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with botany and then moved into environmental
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management and later studied global governance
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and diplomacy at the University of Oxford. So
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my introduction to carbon markets came quite
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early in my career. I was fortunate to work with
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very inspiring mentors and a group of people
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who closely worked in international carbon market
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negotiations with the government of India. And
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very early in my career, I was thrown into the
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deep end of markets as a policy instrument because
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I supported a formal review of the clean development
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mechanism that was run by the UN. so interestingly
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my introduction to markets was through actually
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examining their shortcomings right what hasn't
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worked what the instrument achieved and what
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needed to to change and much of my work in in
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my formative years in my first let's say eight
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years has continued on those lines but on critically
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examining the instrument per se And what has
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kept me interested for now almost 15 years is
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really the complexity of the policy instrument
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itself. Carbon markets sit at this fascinating
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interface of environmental policy, economics,
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ethics, and political science. They raise questions
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about who should pay, who benefits, who gets
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to make decisions, and what constitutes a fair
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outcome. And yet underneath all of that, they
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are grounded in sophisticated technical accounting
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of the resulting carbon credit. I remember in
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my first class at Oxford where our professors
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spoke about the divide between natural scientists
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and social scientists and how differently they
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approach the same problems. And I think carbon
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markets are a fascinating illustration of that
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particular divide because you're constantly trying
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to reconcile scientific rigor with economic realities.
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political choices and the urgency to take climate
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action. And now, for the last few years, working
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much more closely with project developers and
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governments, I find myself confronting those
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same questions, but from a different perspective,
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not just whether the rules are well designed,
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as they should be, but whether they actually
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work in practice. And currently, I lead the Article
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6 policy and strategy work at a Swiss consulting
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company called South Pole. And I also chair the
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Article six working group at the Project Developer
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Forum, which brings together project developer
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voices to contribute the practical experience
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they have in implementing this instrument into
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international carbon market policymaking. So
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that's a little bit about myself. Yeah, so you
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offer a very unique perspective of both what's
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happening on the buyer's side and what's happening
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on the supply side. So I'm really excited to
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get into all of that, and we will. But before
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that, let's kind of get into the basics, because
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Article 6 can sometimes feel like a rather complicated
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corner of the Paris Agreement, even for people
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who already work in carbon markets. And so for
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those of our listeners who may be less familiar
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with it, could you please explain what Article
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is and what it's designed to do and why it matters
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for the implementation of the Paris Agreement?
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Yes, certainly. So maybe let's take a step into
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history, right? Article 6 is basically the sixth
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chapter of the Paris Agreement. And Paris Agreement
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is the successor protocol or the successor international
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instrument for countries to collaborate in achieving
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climate targets. Its predecessor was Kyoto Protocol,
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which was... where developed countries had binding
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emission targets, while developing countries
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generally didn't. They could optionally have
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targets, but they were not bound by the protocol.
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The Clean Development Mechanism, which was the
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carbon instrument of the Kyoto Protocol, was
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essentially a flexibility that allowed that projects
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developed in developing countries to generate
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carbon credits that could be used by countries
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or... industries that are obligated by countries
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in the developed world who had targets. Under
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the Paris Agreement now, every country has a
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nationally determined contribution, which is
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in short the NDC, which is basically the climate
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target for that country for a period of time,
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usually five years to a decade. Now, this change
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in the structure of the treaty itself changes
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the nature of international carbon markets because
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a host country no longer simply is deciding whether
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a project can generate emission reductions for
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a buyer elsewhere it's also deciding whether
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those reductions can be transferred internationally
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while still meeting its own climate commitments
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so article 6 is the instrument for that to for
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that to happen right for that collaboration the
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voluntary collaboration between different countries
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to happen now there are I can go into the specifics
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of Article 6 very briefly. There are two specific,
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let's say, channels or institutional pathways
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for countries to cooperate under Article 6. One
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is, which in common lingo is called Article 6
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, which is basically the clause in Article 6
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of the Paris Agreement that provides basically
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a framework for countries to cooperate. either
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through bilateral or multilateral arrangements,
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right? So assume that as a treaty of sorts. So
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countries can agree on approaches to generate
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and transfer mitigation outcomes, can be at project
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level, can be at different levels too, non -project
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levels too. Provide as long as they meet the
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accounting, reporting and review requirements
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that the Paris Agreement sets. So you must have
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heard about countries signing bilateral agreements
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under Article 6 .2. Those bilateral agreements
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are essentially the bilateral way countries are
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coming up with to collaborate on mutually achieving
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their targets. The second segment is Article
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6 .4. That's different in the sense that 6 .4
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creates a centralized crediting mechanism. under
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the UN supervision. It's called the Paris Agreement
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Crediting Mechanism, or in short, PAC -M. So
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in some ways, PAC -M is the successor of the
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CDM that I talked about, although with a different
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set of rules and a different context under the
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Paris Agreement. These aren't competing systems.
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Credits issued under Article 6 can be authorized
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for any kind of uses that Article 6. permits,
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which is used towards NDC compliance of countries,
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used towards any what they call other international
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mitigation purposes, which includes, for example,
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international compliance instruments like the
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aviation compliance instrument called CORSIA,
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or corporate use where that use requires correspondingly
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adjusted units, right? The broader point here
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is that Paris Agreement and Article 6 gives countries
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much greater agency over how they're using carbon
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markets, right? And Article 6 .2 and 6 .4 provide
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these institutional pathways to cooperate, which
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are fairly wide, let's say. So on a practical
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level, what are the differences between these
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pathways? Like if I'm a country or a company
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looking to participate in international carbon
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markets, how would I determine which route makes
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the most sense for me? So the 6 -4 is like any
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other standard, right? PACM is a carbon standard.
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It's simply governed by the UN. So if you're
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a market participant, you would essentially be
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weighing... pack m methodologies against other
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methodologies that exist in the market right
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under different standard under gold standard
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where are other standards that are out out there
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and then depending on what works for you and
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depending on what the buyer requires you choose
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the path you choose the standard right six two
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article six two this as we are seeing right now,
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practically is evolving through bilateral agreements
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that countries are signing, right? So where are
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they signing these, with whom are they signing
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these bilateral agreements? It's a mix of existing
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political relations, potential of the host country,
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and quite a few things. So we have about, I think,
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100. 100 plus bilateral agreements that 65 plus
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countries have signed with each other. And the
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processes are very buyer -centric. So in some
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instances, like for Switzerland, Switzerland
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signs a bilateral agreement with the country,
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and then you develop your carbon project towards
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that. towards that framework right so you register
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them within the bilateral agreement singapore
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is on the other end of the spectrum where singapore
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essentially also signs bilateral agreements with
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host countries but in those countries then both
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the host and singapore jointly decide which standards
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which methodologies which type of projects they
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want to collaborate on So if you are a market
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participant, you look at these different buyer
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segments and their requirements and the host's
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requirements and decide on that basis, right?
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Now, you must be noticing that this is complex.
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And that's where Article 6 implementation stands
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right now, right? That countries, in a nutshell,
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are still figuring out the right mechanics to
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actually make this work at a certain scale. So
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I see from where I stand, I see this still as
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an instrument in evolution, so to say. So in
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your work with different markets so far, what
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is it actually? look like for a country? How
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does a country become ready to participate in
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Article 6? I'm thinking about everything from
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national legislation, authorization procedures,
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all of these different components. What are the
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steps and what does it look like exactly when
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a country is ready? So on paper, the requirements
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are relatively straightforward. What we are seeing
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is that putting them into practice can be quite
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complex. So at a basic level, if a country, if
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a host country, let's say, wants to participate,
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wants to be an active participant in Article
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6, they need a legal basis for participating,
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which will be an existing legal instrument or
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existing law or complemented with regulations
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which we are hearing are the carbon market frameworks.
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So you need a legal basis, a clear mandate to
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be able to authorize international transfers
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and clarity about who has the authority to make
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those decisions, then you need underneath that
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institutional arrangements, right? Someone, an
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agency to oversee that process, coordinate across
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different ministries and ensure that the decisions
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that are being taken around authorizations are
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consistent with the country's own climate commitments.
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and then you need clear procedures underneath
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which is important questions like what makes
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a project eligible why would you approve one
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over the other what are the matrices to make
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those decisions what information do we need from
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a project developer to make those decisions How
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would that be assessed? Who sits on the table
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for decision making? And what are the grounds
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for authorization to be granted? And then because
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you are making a commitment to authorize, and
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by making that commitment to authorize, you are
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essentially taking that mitigation outcome onto
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your own climate ledger. How does the country
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benefit from this? So this is the segment around
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what fees do they need to charge? How do you
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counterbalance trade -off that you're making
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by exporting a credit out of your country. So
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there are those two particularly important questions
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that sit then underneath the legal basis, the
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institutional arrangements and the procedures,
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which is how does the country benefit? What revenues
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and other benefits are shared between governments,
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developers and local communities? And how does
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it value what they're transferring? So that,
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and I see that as a positive positive evolution
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of the market right because participation in
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paris agreement is a sovereign choice for countries
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they have much greater agency in deciding where
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international carbon finance can or cannot contribute
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for driving their development and climate priorities.
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And having this clarity of the legal basis, institutional
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structure and procedures and why they're doing
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this is actually great for business because provided
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the priorities and the rules are clear, developers
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can basically adapt to those eligibility restrictions,
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to benefit sharing requirements, to government
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fees, as long as they're transparent and predictive.
00:15:39.669 --> 00:15:43.389
So of all these different elements that you mentioned,
00:15:43.610 --> 00:15:46.669
which ones would you say tend to be the most
00:15:46.669 --> 00:15:50.129
challenging to put into place? That's an interesting,
00:15:50.269 --> 00:15:54.629
I see a lot of countries right now are, they're
00:15:54.629 --> 00:15:58.769
different of the three, there are different countries.
00:15:59.669 --> 00:16:02.730
or struggling with different elements. Let me
00:16:02.730 --> 00:16:05.049
give you an example of Ghana, for instance. Ghana
00:16:05.049 --> 00:16:08.870
is a frontrunner in this market, and they saw
00:16:08.870 --> 00:16:11.649
the opportunity that Article 6 presented early,
00:16:11.809 --> 00:16:15.350
and they started with a carbon market framework,
00:16:15.590 --> 00:16:19.190
right? So clear procedures, clear eligibility
00:16:19.190 --> 00:16:22.929
requirements on which projects they want or don't
00:16:22.929 --> 00:16:27.029
want in the country, and embedded it into a competent
00:16:27.029 --> 00:16:30.259
authority. And the legal basis was an already
00:16:30.259 --> 00:16:34.019
existing law. And once they made those experiences,
00:16:34.519 --> 00:16:39.700
the project development experiences then informed
00:16:39.700 --> 00:16:43.559
the legal basis, the adjustment to the regulatory
00:16:43.559 --> 00:16:46.740
requirements. Many others start the other way
00:16:46.740 --> 00:16:48.559
around, right? Because either they don't have
00:16:48.559 --> 00:16:51.779
a legal basis or underlying law or regulation
00:16:51.779 --> 00:16:56.320
to embed these institutional processes in. They
00:16:56.320 --> 00:16:59.360
start with the law itself. and that we've seen
00:16:59.360 --> 00:17:02.419
in several countries takes a very long time because
00:17:02.419 --> 00:17:05.319
then it's a parliamentary process sometimes three
00:17:05.319 --> 00:17:08.420
four years right so there's some set of countries
00:17:08.420 --> 00:17:11.559
where the legal basis is not clear there's a
00:17:11.559 --> 00:17:15.259
struggle around setting those up now once that's
00:17:15.259 --> 00:17:17.839
one for some others where the legal basis is
00:17:17.839 --> 00:17:20.119
now clarified because there's a law that has
00:17:20.119 --> 00:17:22.539
been passed you can see that they're now and
00:17:22.539 --> 00:17:25.019
stuck at the next step which is understanding
00:17:27.390 --> 00:17:32.410
basically the benefits and the processes. We
00:17:32.410 --> 00:17:34.950
see that as well in several countries. What's
00:17:34.950 --> 00:17:38.809
the right fee level? How do you make, on what
00:17:38.809 --> 00:17:44.059
basis do you grant authorization? How does priority
00:17:44.059 --> 00:17:47.539
look like for your country? So what is the value
00:17:47.539 --> 00:17:50.859
in transferring? And then the last element that
00:17:50.859 --> 00:17:53.640
I think all countries are still making sense
00:17:53.640 --> 00:17:57.940
of is what does this mean to achievement of my
00:17:57.940 --> 00:18:02.900
own NDC? There's a mix out there, I would say,
00:18:02.980 --> 00:18:10.349
between where the bottlenecks lie. I think what's
00:18:10.349 --> 00:18:17.319
common across the frontrunners, in my view, is
00:18:17.319 --> 00:18:22.480
not that they've passed the most elaborate carbon
00:18:22.480 --> 00:18:27.019
legislation. It is that the country had a clear
00:18:27.019 --> 00:18:30.559
strategic vision without every operational detail
00:18:30.559 --> 00:18:33.559
being settled at the outset. So, of course, a
00:18:33.559 --> 00:18:36.180
sound legal basis, transparent procedures, institutional
00:18:36.180 --> 00:18:39.880
continuity, they are all essential, but capacity
00:18:39.880 --> 00:18:45.240
to to work on Article 6 also develops through
00:18:45.240 --> 00:18:48.339
implementation. This is a learning by doing exercise.
00:18:48.779 --> 00:18:51.359
And signing a bilateral agreement is one thing,
00:18:51.380 --> 00:18:54.599
but making it operational is another. And that's
00:18:54.599 --> 00:18:58.240
why you see a much smaller subset of actual supply
00:18:58.240 --> 00:19:01.799
coming out. So for me, I think those that have
00:19:01.799 --> 00:19:05.839
moved ahead there, the strategic vision has actually
00:19:05.839 --> 00:19:11.619
gotten them to move fast. What one needs to then
00:19:11.619 --> 00:19:15.079
for this to scale is then administrative efficiency,
00:19:15.279 --> 00:19:18.200
which we are seeing developing slowly across
00:19:18.200 --> 00:19:21.420
countries. Do you see certain regions moving
00:19:21.420 --> 00:19:23.619
more quickly than others, or is this progress
00:19:23.619 --> 00:19:26.299
really determined kind of by individual countries'
00:19:26.420 --> 00:19:29.130
priorities and readiness? Yeah, indeed. So I
00:19:29.130 --> 00:19:32.829
think Africa has been the most active region
00:19:32.829 --> 00:19:38.069
in this field. A lot of countries have bilateral
00:19:38.069 --> 00:19:40.890
agreements. They are working in some form of
00:19:40.890 --> 00:19:44.750
a framework or legal basis. And you can see a
00:19:44.750 --> 00:19:47.250
lot of authorizations coming from them. That
00:19:47.250 --> 00:19:49.789
is followed by some countries in Latin America
00:19:49.789 --> 00:19:53.769
that are gearing up. Chile is a great example,
00:19:53.809 --> 00:19:57.349
for instance. And then Asia has been much slower
00:19:57.349 --> 00:20:01.089
in the uptake, right? They are still at the regulatory
00:20:01.089 --> 00:20:05.730
in most parts, except for a few countries. They're
00:20:05.730 --> 00:20:08.509
still in most parts really at the design stage
00:20:08.509 --> 00:20:12.049
of defining this strategic vision, let's say.
00:20:12.309 --> 00:20:14.450
Once that's all said and done, do you think this
00:20:14.450 --> 00:20:17.109
will help propel them further? Like if we picture
00:20:17.109 --> 00:20:19.009
this phase of taking their time to refine the
00:20:19.009 --> 00:20:22.599
legislation, it's kind of winding a spring. Yeah,
00:20:22.599 --> 00:20:26.460
I mean, to a certain extent, yes. But also, as
00:20:26.460 --> 00:20:30.839
I said, my reading of the market is that because
00:20:30.839 --> 00:20:35.559
there are so many interlinkages with the market
00:20:35.559 --> 00:20:39.880
itself, so with what projects do you prioritize?
00:20:40.160 --> 00:20:42.559
How do you assess them? How do you authorize
00:20:42.559 --> 00:20:46.160
them? And once you authorize, the whole UN reporting
00:20:46.160 --> 00:20:51.549
process comes in. I think... It's a good example
00:20:51.549 --> 00:20:54.150
that is it winding of a spring? I think to a
00:20:54.150 --> 00:20:57.670
certain extent it is, but it's also winding the
00:20:57.670 --> 00:21:00.789
spring on a treadmill situation here because
00:21:00.789 --> 00:21:05.130
Paris requires, at least for the NDC use cases,
00:21:05.349 --> 00:21:10.049
mitigation to be staying within the period of
00:21:10.049 --> 00:21:12.849
an NDC achievement. So you have to basically
00:21:12.849 --> 00:21:16.150
use the credits generated in this NDC period.
00:21:16.630 --> 00:21:19.430
from a buyer perspective in that NDC period,
00:21:19.670 --> 00:21:22.849
which means that, which brings me back to my
00:21:22.849 --> 00:21:26.309
point, right? That what is important is to start
00:21:26.309 --> 00:21:29.769
early and learn on the way rather than getting
00:21:29.769 --> 00:21:34.940
it perfect. And which basically shortens the
00:21:34.940 --> 00:21:38.460
time you have left for actually using international
00:21:38.460 --> 00:21:43.779
markets for a certain NDC period. So Radhika,
00:21:43.880 --> 00:21:46.509
that kind of brings me to a, more technical question
00:21:46.509 --> 00:21:48.849
that i i think is probably one of the most important
00:21:48.849 --> 00:21:51.049
parts of this whole system which is authorization
00:21:51.049 --> 00:21:54.230
and corresponding adjustments under article 6
00:21:54.230 --> 00:21:57.210
.2 countries need to make decisions about which
00:21:57.210 --> 00:21:59.470
mitigation outcomes they authorize for international
00:21:59.470 --> 00:22:01.349
transfer and how those outcomes are accounted
00:22:01.349 --> 00:22:03.789
for so that the same reduction isn't claimed
00:22:03.789 --> 00:22:06.869
toward multiple climate targets Why are these
00:22:06.869 --> 00:22:09.609
decisions so consequential? And what should buyers
00:22:09.609 --> 00:22:11.930
and project developers understand about the difference
00:22:11.930 --> 00:22:14.470
between a carbon credit that exists and a mitigation
00:22:14.470 --> 00:22:17.309
outcome that has been authorized for international
00:22:17.309 --> 00:22:21.910
transfer? So I think what does authorization
00:22:21.910 --> 00:22:28.490
do, right? A consequential piece on why a regular
00:22:28.490 --> 00:22:32.119
credit. is not the same as the credit that you
00:22:32.119 --> 00:22:36.940
need in Article 6. It is the basic requirement
00:22:36.940 --> 00:22:39.839
of the Paris Agreement of the credit not being
00:22:39.839 --> 00:22:44.000
double counted, which means that if a buyer country,
00:22:44.160 --> 00:22:48.960
for example, for its NDCU compliance, is using
00:22:48.960 --> 00:22:52.460
a carbon credit, generated in a developing country,
00:22:52.599 --> 00:22:55.940
the developing country itself cannot use that
00:22:55.940 --> 00:23:00.240
credit. So what they do is that through a letter
00:23:00.240 --> 00:23:05.059
of authorization, they provide a commitment that
00:23:05.059 --> 00:23:08.579
they will essentially take those reductions into
00:23:08.579 --> 00:23:12.779
their own climate ledger, right? Now, it's what
00:23:12.779 --> 00:23:15.799
a letter of authorization does. It provides that
00:23:15.799 --> 00:23:19.200
commitment. And then once that authorization
00:23:19.200 --> 00:23:23.240
is provided, The country is then bound by the
00:23:23.240 --> 00:23:26.779
rules of Article 6 of the Paris Agreement to
00:23:26.779 --> 00:23:30.920
then report to the UN that it is actually keeping
00:23:30.920 --> 00:23:34.539
that promise by doing what is called corresponding
00:23:34.539 --> 00:23:37.599
adjustment, which is essentially that you report
00:23:37.599 --> 00:23:41.450
on your mitigation. on your NDC implementation
00:23:41.450 --> 00:23:45.150
efforts and your greenhouse gas inventory that
00:23:45.150 --> 00:23:48.349
sits underneath achieving these targets that
00:23:48.349 --> 00:23:51.589
you set for yourself. And you basically add the
00:23:51.589 --> 00:23:54.630
emission reductions that you exported out of
00:23:54.630 --> 00:23:56.769
your country into that ledger. And you have to
00:23:56.769 --> 00:24:00.490
do this reporting on a regular basis on a two
00:24:00.490 --> 00:24:05.230
-yearly basis with some flexibility to LDCs and
00:24:05.230 --> 00:24:11.220
since to the UN. So that's what makes an internationally
00:24:11.220 --> 00:24:15.559
transferred mitigation option or ITMO, which
00:24:15.559 --> 00:24:18.259
is the unit coming out of Article 6, different
00:24:18.259 --> 00:24:21.279
from a VCM, a voluntary carbon market credit,
00:24:21.440 --> 00:24:25.799
right? Which is that there is a letter of authorization
00:24:25.799 --> 00:24:28.400
and a commitment, which is a commitment to do
00:24:28.400 --> 00:24:31.519
corresponding adjustment. Did I answer your question
00:24:31.519 --> 00:24:36.589
completely? Yes, yes. But that kind of brings
00:24:36.589 --> 00:24:39.650
me to another question. Is there a scenario in
00:24:39.650 --> 00:24:42.690
which a project has generated credits, but the
00:24:42.690 --> 00:24:45.309
host country has not yet granted the necessary
00:24:45.309 --> 00:24:47.910
authorization? Is that possible? And what happens
00:24:47.910 --> 00:24:51.329
in that case? Yes, so it is possible. So there
00:24:51.329 --> 00:24:54.529
are two routes here, right? One is, of course,
00:24:54.589 --> 00:24:57.089
which is the bilateral agreements route, right?
00:24:57.150 --> 00:25:00.549
That you've designed the project with a certain...
00:25:01.269 --> 00:25:04.589
compliance sovereign buyer in mind, right? And
00:25:04.589 --> 00:25:06.450
you're taking the authorization process. But
00:25:06.450 --> 00:25:08.609
there's also another route in the Paris Agreement,
00:25:08.690 --> 00:25:11.769
which is the use case called other international
00:25:11.769 --> 00:25:15.990
mitigation purposes, where you develop your project,
00:25:16.069 --> 00:25:19.390
much like a voluntary carbon market project,
00:25:19.529 --> 00:25:23.269
you register it with a standard. And in parallel,
00:25:23.329 --> 00:25:25.509
you seek authorization from the host country.
00:25:25.630 --> 00:25:27.930
And you do that for projects that are, for example,
00:25:27.930 --> 00:25:31.750
geared that you are developing towards the demand
00:25:31.750 --> 00:25:34.650
that's coming out of international airlines under
00:25:34.650 --> 00:25:37.470
Corsair, right? Now, that project development
00:25:37.470 --> 00:25:39.910
is your regular project development. And actually,
00:25:39.970 --> 00:25:42.630
much of your Article 6 project development is
00:25:42.630 --> 00:25:46.250
your regular. bread and butter project development,
00:25:46.470 --> 00:25:49.609
but with certain adjustments. One, you need to
00:25:49.609 --> 00:25:53.069
reach out early to the host countries on whether
00:25:53.069 --> 00:25:56.869
your project type is actually eligible to be
00:25:56.869 --> 00:25:59.869
authorized in the first place. Countries that
00:25:59.869 --> 00:26:02.130
have frameworks have set out those requirements.
00:26:02.509 --> 00:26:04.869
And then there is a whole process that countries
00:26:04.869 --> 00:26:07.650
have set out on what do you need to actually
00:26:07.650 --> 00:26:10.990
seek that authorization. So you begin with submitting
00:26:10.990 --> 00:26:16.630
a project concept note of sorts, which developer...
00:26:17.130 --> 00:26:19.750
also develop for example seeking investors and
00:26:19.750 --> 00:26:21.589
so on right you submit the same thing to the
00:26:21.589 --> 00:26:24.049
government then they give you an approval to
00:26:24.049 --> 00:26:27.450
proceed and then as you move through the certification
00:26:27.450 --> 00:26:30.990
cycle you validate your project you you do stakeholder
00:26:30.990 --> 00:26:34.089
consultation and so on you keep the government
00:26:34.089 --> 00:26:38.069
informed and basically pass the steps that the
00:26:38.069 --> 00:26:41.930
host country has set right so that's that's your
00:26:41.930 --> 00:26:46.750
the only difference is that you get you start
00:26:46.750 --> 00:26:50.410
engaging with the host country early and throughout
00:26:50.410 --> 00:26:52.710
that certification process. And then if you have
00:26:52.710 --> 00:26:55.309
a buyer on the other end, which is a sovereign,
00:26:55.549 --> 00:26:57.970
they may have their additional requirements of
00:26:57.970 --> 00:27:01.309
the same nature that you have to comply. But
00:27:01.309 --> 00:27:04.990
the underlying sort of asset development is essentially
00:27:04.990 --> 00:27:08.730
how you would do in the VCM, unless there's a
00:27:08.730 --> 00:27:11.690
specific buyer who wants to add a lot of additional
00:27:11.690 --> 00:27:14.769
quality requirements, for example. Understood.
00:27:14.789 --> 00:27:17.259
Thank you. Another question I'm also interested
00:27:17.259 --> 00:27:19.400
in is, we know the difference between Article
00:27:19.400 --> 00:27:21.180
6 and the voluntary carbon market, obviously,
00:27:21.259 --> 00:27:24.359
but how do these two interact? Because these
00:27:24.359 --> 00:27:26.539
systems are increasingly becoming connected,
00:27:26.700 --> 00:27:29.240
although they're not still interchangeable. And
00:27:29.240 --> 00:27:32.059
probably the hottest topic in carbon markets
00:27:32.059 --> 00:27:34.660
was this kind of convergence of the voluntary
00:27:34.660 --> 00:27:37.019
and compliance markets happening. So how do you
00:27:37.019 --> 00:27:39.839
see the relationship between Article 6 transactions
00:27:39.839 --> 00:27:43.200
and voluntary carbon credits evolving? Yeah,
00:27:43.200 --> 00:27:47.299
and indeed, you're absolutely right that Article
00:27:47.299 --> 00:27:52.339
6 and voluntary carbon market, I don't see them
00:27:52.339 --> 00:27:55.519
as entirely separate systems, like I said, right?
00:27:55.720 --> 00:28:00.539
What Article 6 is establishing is a framework
00:28:00.539 --> 00:28:03.819
for international cooperation and voluntary markets
00:28:03.819 --> 00:28:05.579
have historically developed to international
00:28:05.579 --> 00:28:12.480
standards, which many Article 6 buyers are starting
00:28:12.480 --> 00:28:18.420
to recognize and complement, essentially. And
00:28:18.420 --> 00:28:22.099
that's where these two systems, at the technical
00:28:22.099 --> 00:28:25.500
design stage, that's where these two systems
00:28:25.500 --> 00:28:28.319
are increasingly interacting. So a project developed
00:28:28.319 --> 00:28:31.579
in that sense under a voluntary carbon standard
00:28:31.579 --> 00:28:34.440
may also seek host country authorization for
00:28:34.440 --> 00:28:38.190
international use of its reductions. I think
00:28:38.190 --> 00:28:41.349
what becomes important is becoming more important.
00:28:41.430 --> 00:28:43.349
And we're not there yet. It's still a little
00:28:43.349 --> 00:28:46.309
bit of a spaghetti bowl of rules, requirements,
00:28:46.450 --> 00:28:52.109
and actors coming in. But what is becoming increasingly
00:28:52.109 --> 00:28:56.089
important, and that's how I see these two instruments,
00:28:56.210 --> 00:29:00.230
one voluntary and one compliance, is the intended
00:29:00.230 --> 00:29:03.230
use of the credit, right? So if the intended
00:29:03.230 --> 00:29:06.759
use of your credit is towards meeting another
00:29:06.759 --> 00:29:10.420
country's climate target or an international
00:29:10.420 --> 00:29:15.099
compliance obligation or a corporate claim that
00:29:15.099 --> 00:29:20.180
determines whether the channel is becoming an
00:29:20.180 --> 00:29:25.660
Article 6 credit or a VCM credit. So I wouldn't
00:29:25.660 --> 00:29:29.920
say that the voluntary market is simply being
00:29:29.920 --> 00:29:33.440
replaced by article six i think voluntary finance
00:29:33.440 --> 00:29:37.079
is still critical and the end and depending on
00:29:37.079 --> 00:29:40.339
the claim voluntary climate fire carbon finance
00:29:40.339 --> 00:29:42.740
essentially is supporting ndc implementation
00:29:42.740 --> 00:29:46.019
in host country uh without this international
00:29:46.019 --> 00:29:49.940
transfer so what we are really i think moving
00:29:49.940 --> 00:29:54.960
towards is a more is a hybrid and a differentiated
00:29:54.960 --> 00:29:58.519
market where there where greater attention is
00:29:59.059 --> 00:30:03.000
to what a credit represents and what claims can
00:30:03.000 --> 00:30:06.880
legitimately be made about it. So kind of on
00:30:06.880 --> 00:30:09.400
that note, like as a connection I see between
00:30:09.400 --> 00:30:12.619
Article 6 and the VCM is that Article 6 is sort
00:30:12.619 --> 00:30:15.960
of viewed as a way to channel additional finance
00:30:15.960 --> 00:30:18.259
into climate mitigation, if you will, particularly
00:30:18.259 --> 00:30:21.619
in developing countries. But having a framework
00:30:21.619 --> 00:30:23.960
in place doesn't automatically mean that investment
00:30:23.960 --> 00:30:26.809
will follow, obviously. From what you're seeing,
00:30:26.970 --> 00:30:29.589
what are the main barriers preventing Article
00:30:29.589 --> 00:30:32.190
6 opportunities from translating into actual
00:30:32.190 --> 00:30:35.230
transactions? Yeah, so yeah, indeed, there's
00:30:35.230 --> 00:30:39.150
enormous interest in Article 6 right now. But
00:30:39.150 --> 00:30:41.170
there's also, as you rightly said, there's a
00:30:41.170 --> 00:30:44.190
difference between creating conditions for a
00:30:44.190 --> 00:30:47.670
market to exist and creating conditions for investment
00:30:47.670 --> 00:30:51.589
to happen at a scale. I mean, just to give you...
00:30:51.859 --> 00:30:54.500
the background right project developers and investors
00:30:54.500 --> 00:30:57.740
make investment decisions several years before
00:30:57.740 --> 00:31:00.460
the first credit is actually issued so you are
00:31:00.460 --> 00:31:03.299
committing capital establishing partnerships
00:31:03.299 --> 00:31:08.640
and taking implementation risks against a potential
00:31:08.640 --> 00:31:12.160
future revenue which which arrives much later
00:31:12.160 --> 00:31:16.180
now article 6 adds another dimension to this
00:31:16.180 --> 00:31:20.079
already complex way of doing business which is
00:31:20.079 --> 00:31:24.009
that you your you don't realize your asset unless
00:31:24.009 --> 00:31:27.289
a host country, unless a country authorizes it.
00:31:27.369 --> 00:31:31.529
So sovereign authorizations get added as a risk
00:31:31.529 --> 00:31:34.730
to the genesis of the underlying asset itself.
00:31:35.029 --> 00:31:40.369
So in terms of, I think, what is needed for investment
00:31:40.369 --> 00:31:42.589
and what are the current challenges, I would
00:31:42.589 --> 00:31:46.569
focus on three things that's needed, right? One
00:31:46.569 --> 00:31:49.980
is clarity. The second, predictability. And the
00:31:49.980 --> 00:31:53.220
third, economic viability. Clarity means knowing
00:31:53.220 --> 00:31:56.000
which activities a country is prepared to authorize,
00:31:56.160 --> 00:31:59.140
what conditions apply, and how decisions will
00:31:59.140 --> 00:32:03.420
be made. The more clear that is in a country,
00:32:03.480 --> 00:32:07.200
the easier it is for the developers and the investors
00:32:07.200 --> 00:32:10.019
to go into that country with confidence. The
00:32:10.019 --> 00:32:12.380
second is predictability, right? Which means
00:32:12.380 --> 00:32:16.180
a reasonable amount of confidence in the timelines
00:32:16.180 --> 00:32:20.430
for authorization. and in the durability of the
00:32:20.430 --> 00:32:23.829
conditions on which Article 6 investment depends.
00:32:24.410 --> 00:32:28.289
And then the third is, of course, economic viability,
00:32:28.329 --> 00:32:32.150
which means recognizing that the design and timing
00:32:32.150 --> 00:32:35.710
of host country frameworks, particularly things
00:32:35.710 --> 00:32:39.009
like fees, benefit sharing agreements, and other
00:32:39.009 --> 00:32:42.329
requirements are defined in a way that still
00:32:42.329 --> 00:32:46.450
keep the project. bankable and it's an evolving
00:32:46.450 --> 00:32:50.089
space right now right countries are are are still
00:32:50.089 --> 00:32:53.150
figuring all of these elements out the processes
00:32:53.150 --> 00:32:55.930
how predictable those processes could be how
00:32:55.930 --> 00:32:59.430
transparent they could be how and what what is
00:32:59.430 --> 00:33:01.970
the impact of what they're designing in terms
00:33:01.970 --> 00:33:05.910
of in terms of framework and fees has on on the
00:33:05.910 --> 00:33:08.799
on the ability of the market to pick this up
00:33:08.799 --> 00:33:11.819
right from a developer perspective i think i
00:33:11.819 --> 00:33:14.180
mean governments have legitimate interests in
00:33:14.180 --> 00:33:16.460
ensuring that their countries and communities
00:33:16.460 --> 00:33:19.660
benefit from international transfer. But I think
00:33:19.660 --> 00:33:21.960
what we have to be careful is if the combined
00:33:21.960 --> 00:33:25.720
costs of making the underlying activity possible
00:33:25.720 --> 00:33:29.019
makes it actually uneconomical, then there may
00:33:29.019 --> 00:33:33.539
be no projects and no benefits to share. So I
00:33:33.539 --> 00:33:38.839
guess what I'm trying to get to is that the The
00:33:38.839 --> 00:33:42.000
ask is not weaker governance. It is pragmatic
00:33:42.000 --> 00:33:47.380
implementation and clarity of processes for actual
00:33:47.380 --> 00:33:50.579
transactions to happen. I mean, for an investor
00:33:50.579 --> 00:33:54.420
and a developer, selectivity is managing. A country
00:33:54.420 --> 00:33:57.420
being selective is actually good for business.
00:33:57.660 --> 00:34:02.200
What's less manageable is uncertainty, which
00:34:02.200 --> 00:34:05.519
is much harder to price. So in that line of thought,
00:34:05.559 --> 00:34:08.340
I'm also curious about Which types of mitigation
00:34:08.340 --> 00:34:10.739
activities could benefit most from the development
00:34:10.739 --> 00:34:13.719
of Article 6, in your view? Yeah, it's a very
00:34:13.719 --> 00:34:16.889
interesting question, I think. And I would say
00:34:16.889 --> 00:34:21.630
that because there is now a trade -off that Article
00:34:21.630 --> 00:34:25.849
6 activities do, we keep hearing a familiar argument
00:34:25.849 --> 00:34:28.769
around that countries should keep their low -hanging
00:34:28.769 --> 00:34:31.769
fruit. So the cheaper the reduction, like keep
00:34:31.769 --> 00:34:33.909
the cheaper reduction to yourself and transfer
00:34:33.909 --> 00:34:37.170
the most expensive ones. There's a rationale
00:34:37.170 --> 00:34:41.010
behind that, but I think it's also sometimes
00:34:41.010 --> 00:34:45.210
too simple of an argument. What we are seeing
00:34:45.210 --> 00:34:49.989
is, and so there is one element to this decision
00:34:49.989 --> 00:34:52.909
for a country is the cost of mitigation, which
00:34:52.909 --> 00:34:57.349
doesn't necessarily equate with the ease of achieving
00:34:57.349 --> 00:34:59.570
that mitigation. So what we are seeing right
00:34:59.570 --> 00:35:04.230
now is a mixed bag of priorities from countries
00:35:04.230 --> 00:35:07.090
emerging, right? Let's take... India's example,
00:35:07.190 --> 00:35:10.530
for instance, India has a very short list of
00:35:10.530 --> 00:35:14.250
eligible project types that they would allow
00:35:14.250 --> 00:35:18.010
authorizations for. And these are high -end technologies
00:35:18.010 --> 00:35:22.349
that they specifically need upfront finance for,
00:35:22.409 --> 00:35:25.269
and carbon finance is considered a conduit for
00:35:25.269 --> 00:35:29.110
it, right? And you can compare that to several
00:35:29.110 --> 00:35:34.150
other host countries where, you know, project
00:35:34.150 --> 00:35:36.449
types with clear development benefits, with a
00:35:36.449 --> 00:35:41.090
very clear angle that they may be cheaper technologies,
00:35:41.349 --> 00:35:45.969
but they are certainly not easy to scale technologies
00:35:45.969 --> 00:35:50.269
or that public finance doesn't actually, against
00:35:50.269 --> 00:35:54.090
competing priorities, public finance cannot currently
00:35:54.090 --> 00:35:57.409
cover them. They add those to their eligibility
00:35:57.409 --> 00:36:00.329
list, right? Ghana is a good example, which adds
00:36:00.329 --> 00:36:05.969
technologies, which has in its list of technologies,
00:36:06.030 --> 00:36:10.570
technologies like EVs, but also cookstuffs, right?
00:36:11.030 --> 00:36:15.539
Improved cookstuffs. So there's a mixed bag of
00:36:15.539 --> 00:36:18.760
how countries are treating this question of what...
00:36:19.019 --> 00:36:21.139
mitigation they want to keep for themselves and
00:36:21.139 --> 00:36:24.719
what mitigation they want to export. And I would
00:36:24.719 --> 00:36:27.980
recommend people looking to develop carbon projects
00:36:27.980 --> 00:36:30.380
geared towards Article 6 to actually look at
00:36:30.380 --> 00:36:34.099
host country frameworks to identify what is it
00:36:34.099 --> 00:36:37.760
that the country wants to prioritize. Okay, Ritika,
00:36:37.840 --> 00:36:40.920
let's turn to COP 31, which takes place in Turkey
00:36:40.920 --> 00:36:44.630
next month. The UNFCCC has scheduled an Article
00:36:44.630 --> 00:36:47.909
6 .2 ambition dialogue in the beginning of the
00:36:47.909 --> 00:36:50.989
conference, I think for November 9th. So the
00:36:50.989 --> 00:36:53.889
focus on it is how countries authorize internationally
00:36:53.889 --> 00:36:56.769
transferred mitigation outcomes and how these
00:36:56.769 --> 00:36:59.489
cooperative approaches can support greater climate
00:36:59.489 --> 00:37:02.630
ambition. So looking at the conference from your
00:37:02.630 --> 00:37:05.369
perspective, what would meaningful progress at
00:37:05.369 --> 00:37:07.630
COP 31 look like for the countries and companies
00:37:07.630 --> 00:37:09.889
trying to participate in these markets? Yeah,
00:37:09.989 --> 00:37:12.110
I think I think we've reached a very interesting
00:37:12.110 --> 00:37:14.730
stage in the evolution of Article 6, right? We
00:37:14.730 --> 00:37:18.449
have close to three years for the first set of
00:37:18.449 --> 00:37:22.489
NDCs to be concluded. And in five years, there'll
00:37:22.489 --> 00:37:25.730
be a stop take of what the collective impact
00:37:25.730 --> 00:37:29.650
of those NDCs would be. On Article 6, for several
00:37:29.650 --> 00:37:32.050
years, the negotiations have primarily focused
00:37:32.050 --> 00:37:35.909
on getting the architect right. And now, while
00:37:35.909 --> 00:37:39.079
technical work continues, the interesting question
00:37:39.079 --> 00:37:41.900
is really about implementation, right? So if
00:37:41.900 --> 00:37:46.780
I was a country or a company going to COP 31,
00:37:47.019 --> 00:37:52.800
my main question and my focus would be to understand...
00:37:53.050 --> 00:37:56.329
How is implementation going? Are countries with
00:37:56.329 --> 00:37:59.789
defined frameworks able to translate those defined
00:37:59.789 --> 00:38:03.869
processes into real transactions? So are bilateral
00:38:03.869 --> 00:38:06.650
agreements leading to actual transactions? And
00:38:06.650 --> 00:38:09.710
is investment really reaching to the mitigation
00:38:09.710 --> 00:38:12.690
activities that otherwise struggle to attract
00:38:12.690 --> 00:38:16.550
finance? And is it reaching at the scale that
00:38:16.550 --> 00:38:21.369
countries had originally envisaged in the climate
00:38:21.369 --> 00:38:25.550
targets they submitted to the UNFCCC? That's
00:38:25.550 --> 00:38:31.119
on Article 6 more broadly. On Article 6 .4, we'll
00:38:31.119 --> 00:38:33.440
be watching how the Paris Agreement crediting
00:38:33.440 --> 00:38:37.679
mechanism becomes operational in practice. There
00:38:37.679 --> 00:38:41.099
are a few methodologies that are now adopted,
00:38:41.519 --> 00:38:48.039
including for the important sectors like clean
00:38:48.039 --> 00:38:52.519
cooking and renewable energy and battery storage.
00:38:54.349 --> 00:38:57.869
We are yet to see then how do these methodologies
00:38:57.869 --> 00:39:01.710
and standard work in practice. What does this
00:39:01.710 --> 00:39:06.110
mean for actually having projects on the ground?
00:39:06.570 --> 00:39:11.570
I would say for COP31, this would be a COP to
00:39:11.570 --> 00:39:15.590
stop take on progress in shifting from rules
00:39:15.590 --> 00:39:18.949
that were updated in Baku to actually ensuring
00:39:18.949 --> 00:39:21.530
that there is an enabling environment to achieve
00:39:21.530 --> 00:39:24.969
those rules. Speaking of enabling environment.
00:39:25.210 --> 00:39:27.789
I'm curious, is there a way for the international
00:39:27.789 --> 00:39:30.269
community to kind of help countries that have
00:39:30.269 --> 00:39:33.289
fewer resources to avoid being left behind as
00:39:33.289 --> 00:39:35.610
the carbon markets develop? Certainly, I think.
00:39:35.690 --> 00:39:38.289
I mean, there's a lot of capacity building effort
00:39:38.289 --> 00:39:42.409
that has gone in the last few years from development
00:39:42.409 --> 00:39:45.929
finance institutions and others active in the
00:39:45.929 --> 00:39:51.829
capacity building space to do things like countries
00:39:51.829 --> 00:39:55.269
with legislations, with operational manuals,
00:39:55.269 --> 00:39:59.969
with processes and so on, right? I think there's
00:39:59.969 --> 00:40:04.710
an appreciation beginning to be seen that many
00:40:04.710 --> 00:40:09.949
elements of Article 6 would actually emerge as
00:40:09.949 --> 00:40:12.610
countries start doing transactions. So if I were
00:40:12.610 --> 00:40:16.630
to put a policy hat on, I would say that the
00:40:16.630 --> 00:40:20.880
focus of capacity building needs to now shift
00:40:20.880 --> 00:40:25.960
towards transaction ready support and the more
00:40:25.960 --> 00:40:28.980
we do that the more we would see the you know
00:40:28.980 --> 00:40:32.239
the things that we are currently not seeing because
00:40:32.239 --> 00:40:36.159
the focus is regulatory design and not so much
00:40:36.159 --> 00:40:38.900
transaction and i mean and not so much transaction
00:40:38.900 --> 00:40:41.300
readiness but because transaction readiness comes
00:40:41.300 --> 00:40:44.659
after that regulatory design but i think what
00:40:44.659 --> 00:40:49.570
we need is is is is this is for it to be a little
00:40:49.570 --> 00:40:52.710
bit like a community of practice, which is learning
00:40:52.710 --> 00:40:58.409
as they're doing. Okay. So for my final question
00:40:58.409 --> 00:41:01.590
today, I wanted to kind of look a little further
00:41:01.590 --> 00:41:03.929
ahead and say we were having this conversation
00:41:03.929 --> 00:41:05.730
three to five years from now. What would you
00:41:05.730 --> 00:41:08.130
hope the international carbon market looks like?
00:41:08.190 --> 00:41:10.449
Like, do you think Article 6... could become
00:41:10.449 --> 00:41:12.389
a major channel for climate finance and international
00:41:12.389 --> 00:41:15.670
cooperation the way it's meant to, or will its
00:41:15.670 --> 00:41:18.230
role remain more limited to particular country
00:41:18.230 --> 00:41:21.530
sectors and very specific types of mitigation?
00:41:22.010 --> 00:41:25.650
So I'm a major supporter of Article 6, right?
00:41:25.710 --> 00:41:28.389
I think Article 6 has the potential to become
00:41:28.389 --> 00:41:32.590
a much more important and critical instrument
00:41:32.590 --> 00:41:35.030
in international climate cooperation because
00:41:35.030 --> 00:41:38.599
of the mere urgency that's there. that we are
00:41:38.599 --> 00:41:41.019
seeing, right, on the need for climate cooperation.
00:41:42.019 --> 00:41:45.000
I think there's one element is whether the measure
00:41:45.000 --> 00:41:47.519
of success in a few years would be the size of
00:41:47.519 --> 00:41:50.840
the market or the number of credits traded. The
00:41:50.840 --> 00:41:53.960
other measure would be whether we are able to
00:41:53.960 --> 00:41:58.000
kind of right -size this market to what its purpose
00:41:58.000 --> 00:42:00.960
is, right? A lot of countries currently that
00:42:00.960 --> 00:42:03.380
we interact with are asking similar questions,
00:42:03.519 --> 00:42:06.400
right? What is my priority? How do we derive
00:42:06.400 --> 00:42:10.500
value from this market? So my one hope is that
00:42:10.500 --> 00:42:13.340
in the next three to five years, countries would
00:42:13.340 --> 00:42:17.579
have settled on that question on what is urgent
00:42:17.579 --> 00:42:22.260
and what is immediate and this temporal question,
00:42:22.380 --> 00:42:25.019
right, of what do you keep, what do you export?
00:42:25.300 --> 00:42:29.059
I'm hoping that there is more clarity that emerges
00:42:29.059 --> 00:42:33.510
there. The second... hope that I have is that
00:42:33.510 --> 00:42:37.050
currently we see that this is a market with immense
00:42:37.050 --> 00:42:40.730
fragmentation, which means that if you are going
00:42:40.730 --> 00:42:46.429
into Article 6, you're basically going into bouquet
00:42:46.429 --> 00:42:49.489
markets where different countries, different
00:42:49.489 --> 00:42:52.530
buyer countries have their own specific criteria
00:42:52.530 --> 00:42:56.369
and requirement on what kind of project, what
00:42:56.369 --> 00:42:59.679
kind of credits. What kind of methodology do
00:42:59.679 --> 00:43:02.420
they want and which methodologies, which standards
00:43:02.420 --> 00:43:05.400
are they coming from? And I'm hoping that this
00:43:05.400 --> 00:43:09.199
in the next three to five years, there's a convergence
00:43:09.199 --> 00:43:13.960
around what, you know, there's a convergence
00:43:13.960 --> 00:43:18.460
to the extent it's possible around what underlying
00:43:18.460 --> 00:43:23.579
quality looks like. And so that there is, because
00:43:23.579 --> 00:43:26.380
I think one element that would make this market
00:43:26.380 --> 00:43:30.630
scale, is if the underlying units have fungibility.
00:43:30.989 --> 00:43:34.829
So you're not sitting with the risk that if you're
00:43:34.829 --> 00:43:37.530
developing a project with a very niche set of
00:43:37.530 --> 00:43:40.869
requirements in mind for a buyer, it means it
00:43:40.869 --> 00:43:45.110
remains done eligible elsewhere. So I think one
00:43:45.110 --> 00:43:49.250
piece that I'm hoping that we are able to achieve
00:43:49.250 --> 00:43:51.570
in the next three years before the end of this
00:43:51.570 --> 00:43:57.570
decade is some sort of defragmentation. compared
00:43:57.570 --> 00:44:00.869
to what we're seeing right now. Okay, well, hopefully.
00:44:02.409 --> 00:44:05.670
I really hope things do turn out the way you
00:44:05.670 --> 00:44:07.449
predict or the way you say that you're hopeful
00:44:07.449 --> 00:44:10.170
to. Ritika, thank you so much for joining us.
00:44:10.309 --> 00:44:12.449
It's been great to hear your perspective on how
00:44:12.449 --> 00:44:15.449
Article 6 is evolving. It's certainly very, very
00:44:15.449 --> 00:44:18.050
helpful that you kind of broke it down for us
00:44:18.050 --> 00:44:20.550
what it looks like from every angle and every
00:44:20.550 --> 00:44:23.829
perspective. yeah what it will take to turn an
00:44:23.829 --> 00:44:26.070
international framework into practical climate
00:44:26.070 --> 00:44:28.670
action around this world uh thank you so much
00:44:28.670 --> 00:44:32.010
it was a genuine pleasure to have you thank you
00:44:32.010 --> 00:44:35.590
ellen likewise if you enjoyed this episode of
00:44:35.590 --> 00:44:37.210
the carbon stations podcast and would like to
00:44:37.210 --> 00:44:39.250
hear more conversations like this please be sure
00:44:39.250 --> 00:44:41.110
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