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00:00:18.399Hello and welcome to another episode of the Cables to Clouds monthly news update.
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00:00:22.079Uh I'm Tim McConnaughy, your host, as usual.
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00:00:25.519Uh Chris is not with us today because he's busy sleeping or something.
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00:00:33.920And of course, uh with me now, uh hopefully as always, is uh our other co-host, uh Catherine McNamara.
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00:00:34.880Say hi, Kat.
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00:00:36.399Hi, Kat.
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00:00:38.799Oh, I'm sorry, Catherine.
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00:00:39.920I should have said Catherine.
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00:00:40.719Anyway.
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00:00:41.520All right.
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00:00:44.880Uh let's get going right on these stories here.
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00:00:46.479Uh we'll jump right into it.
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00:00:50.799Obviously, the big one, uh, Cisco Live happened in June.
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00:00:53.119Uh both Catherine and I were there.
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00:00:55.200Chris working for Fortnite was not there.
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00:00:59.119Also, he's in Australia, so but uh it was a good time.
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00:01:04.480But there were some good news stories that came out, some good product launches and announcements, so we'll go ahead and cover them.
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00:01:08.239Um, you know, setting aside the obvious, we both work for Cisco.
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00:01:12.159This is not a marketing pitch or a sales pitch, just report in the news.
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00:01:14.879So, two big things to come out of Cisco Live.
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00:01:19.599Uh, one was uh Cisco Cloud, or sorry, it's now called Cloud Control.
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00:01:28.640Sorry, it's been called internally, they've been calling it Cisco Cloud Control, and then they took off Cisco uh when they launched it because it was obviously a Cisco product.
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00:01:33.840Um, but we've been calling it uh Cisco Cloud Control for so long internally, it's hard to drop it now.
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00:01:38.159So Cloud Control, which is a unified uh management platform, right?
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00:02:07.920So um anybody who's been following the podcast for a long period of time uh knows that I've been railing, even even when I didn't work for Cisco, when I was working for Aviatrix, I was saying a long time ago that if uh if Cisco could just unify the products, just bring together all of the products that they have in the portfolio, uh, they would be, you know, kind of unstoppable as a single vendor because no other vendor has the width, the width and breadth of the uh portfolio.
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00:02:11.520So I was really excited to see that cloud controls being unveiled.
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00:02:14.080Uh people have listened, you know, Cisco has listened.
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00:02:17.199Uh obviously lots of customers have asked for this for a very long time, right?
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00:02:19.439So this is kind of a manager of managers.
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00:02:30.639Uh it's bringing together all of the different management platforms into one place and not just the not just the management platforms, but also things like telemetry and and logging and whatnot.
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00:02:35.280So, you know, really, really excited to uh to see this personally.
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00:02:38.159Um I'll I'll cover the next one next, but I'm curious.
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00:02:41.039Do you have any any thoughts or opinions there, Catherine?
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00:02:44.400Uh no, it just uh it looks uh awesome.
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00:02:50.000Uh obviously it's early stages, so I'm curious to see how the rollout will be.
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00:03:02.000Um, but yeah, I mean I've been uh I've been handling like security cloud control, uh, which was basically for the security product side of things for like the last year.
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00:03:05.039And uh that part has been pretty successful.
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00:03:10.719So it's interesting to see like the net operations and and sim and uh and collaboration get rolled into it.
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00:03:20.960And like uh we've been actually internally calling it uh on our side the security side where I work uh security cloud control, and that's what's been rolled out my marketing-wise.
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00:03:26.560So it's interesting to see it now change to you know cloud control in in general.
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00:03:32.560Um and I think it was also called C3 internally too, Cisco Cloud Control, so they were shortening with C3.
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00:03:34.719So that's gonna be hard to unlearn as well.
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00:03:41.439Yeah, but you know, uh certain, you know, some people really hate the acronyms, so we were told not to use the acronyms.
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00:03:43.680Everybody uses acronyms anyway, right?
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00:03:45.599But um, no, I completely agree.
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00:03:51.280Security Cloud Control was also a really cool product, and I I mean it's just really just become cloud control.
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00:03:58.560Uh what was cool about security cloud control, I thought, was the idea of unifying security policy over all the different uh security products.
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00:04:05.840So hopefully they'll continue that and that will just kind of be the the marching orders forward as we move into the other products with uh with cloud control.
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00:04:08.000So yeah, really, really excited to see that.
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00:04:09.680Um, so go ahead.
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00:04:20.560I was gonna say, I suspect just like with security cloud control, at first it'll be like here's the uh one place you can go to jump to the different products in inside inside of it.
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00:04:24.560But what will be cool is see how they unify like the management of it.
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00:04:37.600Like, I mean, they say the unified management platform, but like in reality, like I think you still have to click into like different products inside of inside of cloud control and manage it like you know, jumping from inside of cloud control.
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00:04:49.040What I would like to see though eventually, and I I suspect that that's probably on the roadmap, is uh on the network side of things, kind of having like a unified policy engine as well, like what they were doing with security cloud control.
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00:04:50.240Yeah, no, 100%.
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00:04:52.800And I I'm sure that's the case.
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00:05:02.240Um, it's yeah, right now it's more like, hey, here's your one-stop shop to get into all of your different uh management uh planes for the different products.
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00:05:09.600Uh, but I've seen, you know, they're already working on on kind of taking that feeling about security cloud control and kind of moving it forward with the other products.
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00:05:12.639So yeah, I'm really excited to see what what comes out of it.
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00:05:33.759Yeah, and I was gonna say, like, I think from the troubleshooting side of things too, like the AI canvas they also talked about uh is supposed to be helping with some of that as well, which will probably be easy to pivot from cloud control, but being able to like actually like grab troubleshooting data from different products just by asking, like, you know, like AI will be really cool too.
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00:05:34.879Yep, absolutely.
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00:05:44.639So, yeah, AI Canvas should be able to grab all the go to each product that's integrated with cloud control and pull the relevant uh data for troubleshooting anyway.
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00:05:48.319Sorry, starting to sound like a sales pitch, but it is something that I've been waiting for for a long time.
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00:05:50.560So uh I am really excited about it.
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00:05:51.759Um okay.
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00:06:04.720And then uh the second announcement, which I'm also very excited with uh about to finally get to talk about, um, you know, when I came back to Cisco back in September of last year, uh I got involved with this project.
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00:06:09.199I was invited to be part of to just to get involved and help in some way with this project.
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00:06:23.439Um, they Cisco just announced uh they've renamed it Multi-Cloud Fabric, which is a uh network as a service offering that connects is uh connects branches, data centers, cloud uh environments, multi-cloud, right?
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00:06:24.959It's called multi-cloud fabric.
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00:06:42.720So think of it um if you're if you're trying to think about where it kind of fits with the re the other multi-cloud, you know, deployment styles or vendors, it's it's a little closer to like an Alkira than like an Aviatrix or uh or well, yes, prosimo's gone, but uh, but like that.
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00:07:01.680So it's very much a managed connectivity offering where you can onboard you know sites, you can onboard uh you know data centers, uh pops, whatever, but also connect your cloud workloads to the same fabric and do routing policy and uh eventually security enforcement.
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00:07:02.879Now, this just got announced.
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00:07:06.000It's actually, I think they're taking beta signups.
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00:07:15.040So uh if this is something that isn't, again, this is not a sales pitch, but if that sounds interesting, you want to check it out, you can actually go, you know, talk to your Cisco account team, I guess.
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00:07:16.160I don't know, I'm not sure, right?
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00:07:23.600I'm I'm not involved with the sales part of it, but uh if you I know they're taking beta signups and you can check it out um if you're interested.
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00:07:26.319So let's see, which I sorry, go ahead, Catherine.
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00:07:34.240Uh I was just gonna say, uh yeah, obviously anyone watching this are gonna feel like, oh, we're Cisco employees, so we have to like tone down the excitement.
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00:07:51.360Apologies, but we're we're not really trying to like position it as a sales pitch, which is why I mentioned that like it'll be cool to see where it goes initially, like you know, with security cloud control, like initially it was just click into each product one by one, and then they created the hybrid mesh firewall engine.
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00:08:01.120So, you know, just like uh everything else, like it'll be cool to see where it goes, but like obviously we're not like throwing up powerpoints of marketing powerpoints and going through this.
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00:08:02.879Yeah, yeah, right, exactly.
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00:08:05.120So, I mean, obviously, like I said at the beginning, right?
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00:08:07.600We're we both work for Cisco, it is what it is.
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00:08:19.040Um, Chris isn't with us, but uh at the same time, Cisco Live did just happen and they had two major announcements, so we thought it was important to cover those things on the news just as part of our normal news coverage.
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00:08:24.160Um, okay, so I I won't say too much more about uh the multi-cloud fabric.
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00:08:25.439I am really excited about it.
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00:08:30.319I there's probably a lot more I could say, but again, um, you know, I'm not here to uh set a sales pitch.
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00:08:32.799It's just I'm excited because I finally get to talk about it.
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00:08:40.480But um anyway, let's go ahead and move on to the second story, which I think is really hilarious and it probably is.
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00:08:42.000Big ways to the third story.
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00:08:44.799Okay, so I'll I'll cover this one.
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00:08:56.320Um so uh last week, I think it was what Monday, uh, you know, uh Claude uh Anthropic's Claude Fable 5 came out with Mythos 5.
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00:08:59.279It was a heavily neutered version of Mythos, by the way.
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00:09:00.559I just want to say that.
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00:09:09.279Heavily neutered, like they they they put some clue like anti-security um uh blocks on there.
00:09:09.279 -->
00:09:14.720Like, so if you said something like, uh create this app for me, okay, cool, builds the app.
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00:09:24.480Uh now check the code for you know that to make sure it's secure, it would block you and and downgrade down to four, uh I think it was Opus uh 4.8.
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00:09:25.2794-8, yeah.
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00:09:33.440Um and it would just be like, nope, we're gonna go anything security related, even checking the code that it was producing.
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00:09:40.799Like if you explicitly tell it, like, hey, do this, uh, make sure what you just created was secure, it would just downgrade you.
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00:09:49.360And I had a lot of security practitioner friends who are playing around with it, uh security researchers, and they were really, really annoyed by how neutered it was.
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00:09:55.360It's like, we're not even asking you to check for vulnerabilities of X, you know, some third-party code or anything like that.
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00:10:00.720I'm just asking you to check to see if what you made is secure, and uh it would just downgrade it.
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00:10:02.080People got really frustrated.
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00:10:14.080But on the other side of things, like non-security folks I talked to said that the workflows were a lot more focused, clear, things like that, than though it did burn tokens at like a two-time, yeah, like a double rate.
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00:10:16.320But they said that they really liked it.
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00:10:30.799Um, it was out last week, uh, people were playing around with it, security researchers and security folks were not very happy, regular folks who are like developers, network people, uh, you know, other folks uh were very happy with it.
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00:10:37.440Um, you know, as folks uh have heard from us and others, there's a lot of hype that was created around mythos.
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00:10:40.399Oh, it's too dangerous to release in its unneutered form.
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00:10:46.320It's it's going to you know rock cybersecurity, it's finds bugs in everything.
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00:11:08.399Um and so, you know, previous story we had covered was you know, Project Glasswing was formed, which was a uh which was a um special collaboration between some large companies like Cisco, Microsoft, Cloudflare, like really big companies to uh use un you know uh unchained mythos to look for bugs and things in their code.
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00:11:20.320So for like the last month or so, um all these companies have been eating tokens and and and paying to use mythos uh you know for security reasons.
00:11:20.320 -->
00:11:33.120And so uh, but it was so hyped up, like, you know, uh the folks at Anthropic were back in the White House after being kicked out for you know refusing to unchain their AI for the Department of War.
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00:11:47.360And uh, you know, there was just a lot of hype built about like how this thing was about finding bugs in uh you know, mythos was finding bugs in like, you know, 20-year-old bugs in like FreeBSD and other places, and it was just so good at finding vulnerabilities.
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00:12:02.799So uh, you know, all that hype for the last month or or two, and you know, and uh, you know, mythos or anthropic getting invited back in the White House after getting kicked out of it, uh uh and all that segues to our third story.
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00:12:11.120Um, so as I said, it was a heavily neutered version of uh of Mythos that came out that you just couldn't use it for security purposes.
00:12:11.120 -->
00:12:17.360Uh the only people who were allowed to use it for mythos for security purposes were these companies that were part of Glasswing.
00:12:17.360 -->
00:12:18.639Well, that all changed.
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00:12:22.320Uh Mythos was out for approximately, what, three or four days?
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00:12:40.240And the government decided, nope, we are going to go ahead and put an export control directive uh against Anthropic to disable access for mythos for any country that's not the US or any national within or outside of the US uh from using it.
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00:12:43.679Now, inside the US creates other problems, obviously.
00:12:43.679 -->
00:12:48.320Um, Anthropic has a lot of non-US citizens working for it.
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00:12:54.399So now even the people who may have contributed to the creation of mythos can't even touch our own product.
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00:13:04.240A lot of the companies in Glasswing uh that are allowed to use it are um for, you know, might have H1Bs or for nationals or people dual citizenship.
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00:13:05.440Now they can't use it.
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00:13:17.200So all the so basically Anthropic had to pull access not only to like the Glasswing partners, but also anyone who is using uh Fable 5 or Mythos 5, the neutered public version.
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00:13:27.360And that's because uh my understanding is that Amazon basically uh or AWS basically created a report about uh jailbreaking techniques and other things.
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00:13:38.080And because of the hype that was created around uh Mythos, like this is where Anthropic may have shot themselves in the foot a little bit, uh, they created so much hype about how dangerous it was.
00:13:38.080 -->
00:13:45.600US government smacked that down and and just basically said, nope, no foreign nationals at all in and outside the country.
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00:13:54.559So uh now it had to get revoked from ever use from everyone in the meantime, even within Anthropic, most people can't use it now.
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00:13:58.320And uh so Anthropics are pretty pissed about it.
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00:14:15.440Like they're they'll say that you know, jailbreaking, the same vulnerability exists in other models and other competitors, but you know, they created their own hype and they made it sound so dangerous that it it uh it certainly is uh yeah, I I I question some of the government's motives in this case.
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00:14:20.480Is it is it just their own, you know, them anthropic's own hype biting them in the butt?
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00:14:27.360Is it revenge for you know yeah, retali retaliation for anthropic saying no to the Department of War?
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00:14:28.240I don't know.
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00:14:38.399But uh one of the things it does remind me of is back like 20, 25 years ago, we used to have export controls on really uh on strong encryption.
00:14:38.399 -->
00:14:50.639So three folks that may not remember, like uh the only encryption we could export or use with inside and outside the United States used to be three DES, which was really easily broken.
00:14:50.639 -->
00:14:52.879The NSA could do that in like seconds.
00:14:52.879 -->
00:15:02.639They they basically said the government, the US government basically said years ago, this is too dangerous for uh you know, he strong encryption is too dangerous.
00:15:02.639 -->
00:15:05.840We could steal secrets, people could do bad things with it.
00:15:05.840 -->
00:15:08.639So they actually had an export control against it.
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00:15:22.639And um it wasn't until like there was a I think the EFF was involved years ago, decades ago, and several other uh groups that finally had to like, you know, finally got the government to reverse, uh reverse that.
00:15:22.639 -->
00:15:26.480But you know, now we're back at, you know, it feels a little reminiscent of that.
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00:15:32.080Now we're back at where the government is creating export controls on technology because it might be dangerous.
00:15:32.080 -->
00:15:43.039But meanwhile, China and other countries are gonna develop these similar models, and as long as they don't hype them up too much, what what's you know, what is the US government gonna do about it?
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00:15:49.360We're pretty much stifling competition based on on more hype than anything else, I feel like.
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00:15:51.039Vibes.
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00:15:52.399Uh yeah.
00:15:52.799 -->
00:15:53.600Or retaliation.
00:15:53.600 -->
00:15:55.039We we're not 100% sure.
00:15:55.039 -->
00:16:01.759Obviously, we're not in the minds of the government, but you know, it it does feel a little bit like it could be retaliatory.
00:16:01.759 -->
00:16:04.399Not hunt like obviously I'm not a politician.
00:16:04.399 -->
00:16:21.200I don't I'm not in their heads, but uh it also could be just uh really bad, um uh bad uh uh you know reaction, you know, reaction without anyone really technical you know helping make that decision.
00:16:21.200 -->
00:16:26.080I'm not a hundred percent sure, but uh obviously Anthropic's not happy.
00:16:26.080 -->
00:16:29.919They just filed for IPO, I think, last week as well, as they released this.
00:16:29.919 -->
00:16:35.360And now, you know, their next models basically had to be pull back.
00:16:35.360 -->
00:16:40.320It's not you know, not a great uh great uh intro to their IPO.
00:16:40.320 -->
00:16:50.000And I also I was gonna mention we didn't put this as a news story, but also OpenAI also um uh filed to have an IPO as well.
00:16:50.000 -->
00:16:52.480So like I think that both happened last week.
00:16:52.799 -->
00:16:53.600Yeah, yeah.
00:16:53.600 -->
00:16:56.000So I mean there's a lot to unpack here, right?
00:16:56.000 -->
00:17:02.399First of all, the the recent SD WAN vulnerabilities that were released um were all from Project Glasswing, right?
00:17:02.399 -->
00:17:06.319They were like all that there's a ton of them that came out within the last, I think the last month.
00:17:06.319 -->
00:17:11.039Not a ton, there was like three, three or four, but they were pretty decently, you know, impactful.
00:17:11.039 -->
00:17:18.079They were patched really quickly because they were found via Glasswing, and therefore we, you know, Cisco had time to patch them.
00:17:18.079 -->
00:17:39.039But just to point out that like, you know, maybe the unredacted version of Mythos is really is um stronger, certainly, than you know, I don't know if it's I don't know if it meets the hype, but certainly there were vulnerabilities that all the major vendors that were involved with Glasswing were able to find in their products and patch as a result of having access to it.
00:17:39.039 -->
00:17:43.119So there at least is some amount of of truth to that.
00:17:43.119 -->
00:17:56.400Now the question I would have here is if if we had taken, you know, Opus 4.8 or or the equivalent model and and pointed it at um the same code base and said find vulnerabilities, I would have loved to have seen the delta between those.
00:17:56.400 -->
00:18:03.039Just so you really get a a sense of what the difference is, you know, how really if it really because I agree with you.
00:18:03.039 -->
00:18:11.039I think I think they definitely shot themselves in the foot, and there was some there's definitely marketing hype and and you know, the timing of the IPO and all of this, right?
00:18:11.039 -->
00:18:22.720It's it's it doesn't take a it doesn't take a conspiracy theorist to to to be up on the wall with the push pins and the the the the threads and the pictures and all that to to figure some of the stuff out, right?
00:18:22.720 -->
00:18:37.200Um but you know you you do wonder was the was the mythos or of you know w the unredacted version of f of the fable model so incredibly dangerous that we couldn't have it, you know what I mean?
00:18:37.359 -->
00:18:41.839So So I'm gonna eat my words a little bit from last time we did news.
00:18:41.839 -->
00:18:51.200Um so I've actually talked to some folks who have had the chance to play around with the uh the unneutered, uh uh unchained version of Mythos.
00:18:51.200 -->
00:18:53.440They said it did actually a pretty good job.
00:18:53.440 -->
00:18:56.240Um they actually found a lot of vulnerabilities with it.
00:18:56.240 -->
00:19:02.799Um and these are folks in multiple companies that I just water cooler conversation I've had online with them and stuff.
00:19:02.799 -->
00:19:06.160Um and they these are security researchers I actually trust.
00:19:06.160 -->
00:19:08.799And they did say it actually did a really good job.
00:19:08.799 -->
00:19:12.880Um so I'm kind of reversing what I said before.
00:19:12.880 -->
00:19:31.359I think the last news story I was like saying, oh, you know, I'm not I I I don't think it's quite at the hype level that they that Anthropic obviously was putting out, but it was better that from what folks I trust are telling me, it was better than what I actually originally clocked it as.
00:19:31.359 -->
00:19:33.359It's not quite a nothing burger.
00:19:33.359 -->
00:19:36.640It actually does a really good job at finding some vulnerabilities.
00:19:36.640 -->
00:19:48.079So um, you know, that being said, uh, does will it replace um, you know, like bug bounty programs and threat security researchers altogether?
00:19:48.079 -->
00:19:49.839No, um, not at all.
00:19:49.839 -->
00:19:50.720Far from it.
00:19:50.720 -->
00:19:56.000Um, but I I it does definitely find a lot of good stuff.
00:19:56.000 -->
00:20:06.160And, you know, I I think though that there's a real uh and this might actually be kind of an unofficial news story as well, but like let me give an example.
00:20:06.160 -->
00:20:16.400A lot of the security bug bounty programs, especially from big companies, we've seen, you know, in the past and even recently can be very stingy when it comes to paying for bugs.
00:20:16.400 -->
00:20:23.119Um, there was this real big controversy that happened over the last couple weeks with um uh Microsoft.
00:20:23.119 -->
00:20:32.559Um, somebody uh a security researcher found another really bad bug uh in like Zero Day, and uh uh and they tried to report it to Microsoft.
00:20:32.559 -->
00:20:39.680And this is like the umpteenth millionth time this person had tried to uh I believe the researcher's name is like Nightmare Eclipse.
00:20:39.680 -->
00:20:44.079Um and this is like the umpteenth millionth time they've tried to like report bugs to Microsoft.
00:20:44.079 -->
00:20:45.200It they get really bad.
00:20:45.200 -->
00:20:52.559They Microsoft had a tendency to take reported bugs and say it's not a vulnerability, whatever, and then silently patch it.
00:20:52.559 -->
00:20:55.200And security researchers were got really upset.
00:20:55.200 -->
00:21:02.400So this this uh I think uh this person um ended up publishing it and just saying, you know, screw you, Microsoft.
00:21:02.400 -->
00:21:07.599And Microsoft canceled their GitHub, their GitL, and tried to like get their blog taken down.
00:21:07.599 -->
00:21:10.400All sorts of nonsense uh in ensued.
00:21:10.400 -->
00:21:20.400And it got really it became a public news story that uh essentially uh Microsoft is really bad about patching or about uh paying bug bounty and then yeah.
00:21:20.400 -->
00:21:21.039Yeah.
00:21:21.039 -->
00:21:36.079So the reason why I mentioned this is um the average from what I was reading in industry like news is that the average bug bounty cost for running Mythos to find a bug um is $36,000 per bug.
00:21:36.079 -->
00:21:39.039So $36,000 for every every single bug.
00:21:39.039 -->
00:21:46.720Um and that doesn't matter if it's a big bug, like a like severity, you know, like you know, CV is like a 10 versus a one.
00:21:46.720 -->
00:21:51.359Um so you we see a lot of these programs are really stingy.
00:21:51.359 -->
00:22:03.119They pay like 500th, a couple thousand at most, like to s for some of these like you know, security researchers who who submit their bug bounties and And and um they're not getting rich off of this.
00:22:03.119 -->
00:22:11.119Like they could go and sell these these vulnerabilities on the black market or gray market and make a lot more money, but they're trying to do the ethical thing.
00:22:11.119 -->
00:22:25.039And um so do I even if mythos was all that it was hyped up to be, um, and it's not it it's better than what I originally forecasted, but it's not like as bad as what Anthropic said.
00:22:25.039 -->
00:22:31.839Uh do I feel like companies are gonna spend 36k for a bug big or small?
00:22:31.839 -->
00:22:33.359I'm not 100% sure.
00:22:33.759 -->
00:22:34.880Yeah, just for any bug.
00:22:34.880 -->
00:22:36.640You don't even know what you're gonna get, right?
00:22:36.960 -->
00:22:41.519Yeah, and I had this interesting debate in uh Discord uh just recently with someone.
00:22:41.519 -->
00:22:51.680I I don't know if you were in that conversation or not, but um, you know, somebody was saying that like uh, you know, uh the companies will pay to not have the bad reputation hit.
00:22:51.680 -->
00:22:58.960But what we've seen in recent years is like bugs and vulnerabilities haven't been the major reason people have moved away from vendors.
00:22:58.960 -->
00:23:18.000So I'm curious to see if how even if like mythos comes back out unrest like unchained and you know, and with the bar of the the cost being so high to run it to find every single bug, how many larger companies that have the money to do so are are they gonna continue burning through those tokens?
00:23:18.000 -->
00:23:19.519So that's another concern.
00:23:19.519 -->
00:23:23.200You know, we'll you know, I'm gonna you know footnote on there.
00:23:23.200 -->
00:23:34.400But you know, I I I will say it my personal opinion, just me as a person, I don't feel like it should be uh uh uh control export controlled.
00:23:34.400 -->
00:23:44.000I don't think it's it it's not quite the hype uh uh anthropic made it to be, but at the same time, um, and I think it's going to stifle competition.
00:23:44.000 -->
00:23:46.319Deepseek's gonna shoot ahead eventually.
00:23:46.319 -->
00:23:48.000And what what then?
00:23:48.000 -->
00:24:03.519What you can't you the US has no control over export controls on Deep Seek or any other platform AI platform that happens outside the United States, so people just go and use that, and it you know, it feels like we're we're putting a uh finger on the scale against one company.
00:24:03.839 -->
00:24:15.200Well, I mean, there is I mean there is the the potential, and I don't know if it's true or not, but like I mean the the White House is still pretty friendly with uh with Elon and his his clan.
00:24:15.200 -->
00:24:19.440So I mean it could be that could be uh a grok equalizer.
00:24:19.440 -->
00:24:21.519It could be attempting to equalize things for grok.
00:24:21.519 -->
00:24:32.319I mean, there's so many potential with this administration especially, there's so many potential angles of like why they would do this, but I I do believe it's part is the is the hype, the vibes, if you will.
00:24:32.319 -->
00:24:39.680Um I don't know about the the AI, uh the AI um tech race, I don't know what you'd call it, is that's a whole other thing.
00:24:39.680 -->
00:24:42.079We could spend an hour on or more on that easy.
00:24:42.079 -->
00:24:43.599I don't know what the answer is.
00:24:43.599 -->
00:24:51.039Like in theory, uh you know, humanity should protect humanity if we're getting to the point where we're thinking we're gonna have these super dangerous AI.
00:24:51.039 -->
00:24:55.119I don't think we're anywhere near that, and I'm not even sure that exists, if I'm being honest.
00:24:55.119 -->
00:24:58.079But, you know, yeah, I agree with you, just generally.
00:24:58.079 -->
00:25:05.119It's uh you know, China's not gonna the EU now is starting to figure out that, oh, by the way, the US isn't the ally it used to be.
00:25:05.119 -->
00:25:09.200We need to be developing our own models and and all of this other stuff too, right?
00:25:09.200 -->
00:25:11.200So it's polarizing.
00:25:11.200 -->
00:25:14.559And um, I'm not sure what the answer is.
00:25:14.559 -->
00:25:19.920I I do think um yeah, I uh I'm not I'm I'm not sure that here's what I know for sure.
00:25:19.920 -->
00:25:27.200The money that we're the $36,000 that you're paying per bug is like a fraction of what it actually costs to find those bugs, right?
00:25:27.200 -->
00:25:30.559Like, because it's all still being being very heavy as heavily subsidized.
00:25:30.559 -->
00:25:37.119If once the cost starts getting passed along, it's so much of the stuff is gonna be way out of reach, I I think.
00:25:37.519 -->
00:25:47.039Yeah, it it it I mean we could try for better efficiency, and like some models do get more efficient depending on um depending on w how they work.
00:25:47.039 -->
00:25:59.359Like like I I think Deep Seek is you know, it's still like behind in certain models, but it it does I believe my understanding is that it was more efficient than some some of the models that we're using heavily here in the US.
00:25:59.359 -->
00:26:22.079And um, you know, it'll be interesting to see where it goes, but obviously I feel like um, you know, just putting export controls on AI just because they could be, you know, open to a a jailbreaking attack or uh or like a prompt injection, like every AI m LLM model you have out there, every AI model is going to be vulnerable to that.
00:26:22.079 -->
00:26:24.559Like, are you gonna export control everything?
00:26:24.559 -->
00:26:25.680Obviously not.
00:26:25.680 -->
00:26:41.519Um and what happens if if uh like I mean obviously open AI, uh you know, Grok and everything like that, uh they're gonna probably not try to claim that their models are so dangerous they can't release them because they've seen what happens at Anthropic.
00:26:41.519 -->
00:26:43.279But here's the problem with anthropic now.
00:26:43.279 -->
00:26:48.880If they say this model is better than Fable 5 or Mythos, they're gonna get slapped with another one.
00:26:50.400 -->
00:26:53.599Now you've already set the bar, which is uh a bit of a problem.
00:26:53.599 -->
00:26:55.279So yeah, I completely agree.
00:26:55.279 -->
00:27:00.000The um all right, so let's let's move on to the next one, which is a good segue, actually.
00:27:00.000 -->
00:27:02.480So our last story, I mean there was a lot of stories, right?
00:27:02.480 -->
00:27:04.160But we try to keep these things fairly tight.
00:27:04.160 -->
00:27:14.720Uh the last story is about uh is about AWS kind of, but it's really about it it's about um AI's uh AI data center efficiency, right?
00:27:14.720 -->
00:27:29.519So anybody who hasn't had their head under a rock realize you know has has read a lot of stories now about communities uh all across the nation, probably, I mean, I don't know about the rest of the world, but certainly all across this nation, pushing back on having AI data centers built in their backyard, right?
00:27:29.519 -->
00:27:42.799There's there's an ongoing fight in Colorado, which is under already under severe drought, and you know, the Colorado River is not what it once was, about uh, you know, I forget who it is, if it's Google or who it is that's building a data center there.
00:27:42.799 -->
00:27:50.160And then there's the one in Utah that Kevin O'Leary is famously, you know, trying to get built, and the people in Utah are pushing back against.
00:27:50.160 -->
00:27:54.720And a lot of it has to do with just you know, water, uh, how much water these things take.
00:27:54.720 -->
00:27:58.720So uh this this uh article just came out, you know, a couple days ago.
00:27:58.960 -->
00:28:00.720I was gonna say water and energy as well.
00:28:00.720 -->
00:28:04.000Well, because energy is driving up cost of the energy grade.
00:28:04.240 -->
00:28:05.119No, that's absolutely right.
00:28:05.119 -->
00:28:05.599Yeah, yeah.
00:28:05.599 -->
00:28:09.519I mean, just really resources in general, but it's really the big ones are water and energy.
00:28:09.519 -->
00:28:11.359The two the two big ones are water and energy.
00:28:11.359 -->
00:28:12.160Yeah, absolutely.
00:28:12.160 -->
00:28:17.359Water being an actual physical resource that you know has to be consumed.
00:28:17.359 -->
00:28:30.400Energy has to be consumed as well, but it's harder to track track that back because, you know, it's thousand miles away in a, you know, they they have to build more power infrastructure, and that burns coal, uses a nuclear, you know, whatever, whatever it's using.
00:28:30.400 -->
00:28:39.279But uh anyway, so this particular article is specifically focusing on uh water efficiency, which uh as you pointed out does not do anything for the energy efficiency.
00:28:39.279 -->
00:28:43.359Maybe it's even worse, but we'll we'll focus on the water uh for this article.
00:28:43.359 -->
00:29:02.559So Amazon is saying basically that they are receiving hey they have achieved 0.12 liters of water per kilowatt hour in its data centers compared to the industry average of 0.84 liters per kilowatt hour, which is a 52% improvement in water efficiency over the last five years.
00:29:02.559 -->
00:29:10.960So I'm trying to think about the math there because these these uh these data centers, these AI data centers put out gigawatts, you know, of power.
00:29:10.960 -->
00:29:15.200They need, you know, or need sorry, not put out, uh need gigawatts of of power.
00:29:15.200 -->
00:29:19.759So um if you have to do the math on that one, so efficiency is good, right?
00:29:19.759 -->
00:29:22.720A 52% improvement over five years, that's great.
00:29:22.720 -->
00:29:48.319Um, they're still using absolutely insane amounts of water, but it basically, you know, and what Amazon is saying is that, you know, hey, we we're using free air cooling, evaporative cooling, we're operating at higher temperatures, you know, we're just kind of so so we're just kind of eating the the temperature uh rise and and not cooling it to the degree we used to cool it, which you know, industry analysts are saying, okay, well, that's pretty much going to be the normal.
00:29:48.319 -->
00:29:53.599Like any new data centers built have to do these things because the uh consumption is so high.
00:29:53.599 -->
00:30:02.960So I what I think is interesting about this, you know, this article in general is just the the wider discussion, you know, 0.12 liters per kilowatt hour.
00:30:02.960 -->
00:30:07.839Um less, obviously, uh a lot less than almost a liter per kilowatt hour.
00:30:07.839 -->
00:30:09.200That's a huge improvement.
00:30:09.200 -->
00:30:10.400But is it enough?
00:30:10.400 -->
00:30:17.920You know, for where they're building these data centers, is this enough of an improvement to say, oh well, problem solved.
00:30:17.920 -->
00:30:19.759Let's let's keep building data centers.
00:30:19.759 -->
00:30:20.720Um, I don't know.
00:30:20.720 -->
00:30:23.200I know North Carolina just uh pushed back.
00:30:23.200 -->
00:30:25.839I think we stopped uh some data.
00:30:25.839 -->
00:30:28.400I don't remember who it was, but uh might have been Google.
00:30:28.400 -->
00:30:32.720Uh but building a data center, you know, here in the tr uh near the triangle, I believe.
00:30:32.720 -->
00:30:33.359But I don't know.
00:30:33.359 -->
00:30:36.240What are you what are you seeing out there in in California?
00:30:36.559 -->
00:30:52.880Um well I would say that like they probably care like from what I've seen, people building their own AI infrastructure and stuff like that, they care about energy uh like being energy efficient because that's resources they have to pay for uh as well, which are more expensive than water for most of the time.
00:30:52.880 -->
00:30:55.440But yeah, it's it's interesting.
00:30:55.440 -->
00:31:16.160Um, you know, like these data centers are getting plopped down all over the country, uh in places I don't I don't I haven't heard of any community that was like welcoming them welcoming them with open arms because it's not like it produces a ton of new jobs unless like data center security personnel is what not exactly like the most prestigious job that you're gonna you're gonna get out of it.
00:31:16.480 -->
00:31:19.599It's like ten people, ten people when it's done, you know.
00:31:20.000 -->
00:31:30.400Yeah, and maybe construct some construction on building it, but even then they're finding more efficient ways to build this with uh you know to pop them up and pop you know, expand them as they need to.
00:31:30.400 -->
00:31:50.400I I think it's gonna be something that like bites us, like bite bites us as a society in the butt later on when like some of these these communities get really uh really expensive to live in because water and and energy become you know uh like we've already seen like the energy costs and water costs uh uh drive up in certain communities.
00:31:50.400 -->
00:32:04.640Um one thing I did uh did find interesting though is uh it's kind of related to this, is like the gov US government uh is actually making a watch list now of people who are uh like AI data center resistant.
00:32:04.640 -->
00:32:14.079Um I mean I guess the majority of the country is gonna be on a watch list because there's a lot of people that are resistant.
00:32:14.079 -->
00:32:16.079Um but it it'll be interesting.
00:32:16.079 -->
00:32:35.839Like I uh it it's nice that Amazon is working on on efficiency and in general, I think it's trying their attempt at trying to endear the public to them and you know get people to uh be more accepting of data centers because at the end of the day, like these communities could potentially drive drive the data center out before they're built.
00:32:35.839 -->
00:32:38.160Um they have some local power.
00:32:38.160 -->
00:32:52.720Like I don't know, like I not to get too political here, but when it comes to like um being able to sway things from a political level, the closer you get to the people, the less typically like the more malleable the politicians are.
00:32:52.720 -->
00:32:58.480So like if you go to the federal level, good luck trying to get them to like do anything unless you're a multi-billionaire donor.
00:32:58.480 -->
00:33:11.039But when you get down to the local level, state, um, city, county, um, those politicians tend to be more amend amendable to uh what their constituents says say.
00:33:11.039 -->
00:33:30.160So I I do see I I mean I'm glad that Amazon is do making these moves, but also that they're probably also announcing these things, not just for the other techies out there, but also to to try to get the those communities to be more accepting of data centers and not like um not block them from being able to build them in certain places.
00:33:30.640 -->
00:33:31.839Yeah, no, I agree.
00:33:31.839 -->
00:33:34.319I mean I've I've been keeping up with this actually.
00:33:34.319 -->
00:33:37.599So there's there's uh I was reading so many stories.
00:33:37.599 -->
00:33:38.880I I should have collected them.
00:33:38.880 -->
00:33:41.519Maybe I will find go find them all and collect them all.
00:33:41.519 -->
00:33:57.920So but um there was one where they built a data center, like there first there was a residential neighborhood, and then they build a data center basically next to it, and the people that live in that neighborhood, like they're having trouble sleeping and stuff because of the subsonic uh machinery sounds and stuff like this.
00:33:57.920 -->
00:33:59.440So it's like there's like a whole thing.
00:33:59.440 -->
00:34:08.719It's like, man, what would you do if you're you know you bought your house, you're living in it, you're paying off the mortgage, and then they plop a data center next to it, and all of a sudden you can't, you know, it's like impossible to live there.
00:34:08.719 -->
00:34:17.440There's there's so much, you know, and then and then there's also I agree with you generally that you know the closer you get to people, the more politicians have to pay attention or they're gonna get voted out.
00:34:17.440 -->
00:34:31.519Um, but there's there's also stories of you know count city councils being voted out basically because they they approved a data center above above uh public uh outcry, and then the data center gets built anyway.
00:34:31.519 -->
00:34:33.039Like there's a lot of stuff going on here.
00:34:33.039 -->
00:34:41.360The federal government's talking about national security reasons to like build AI data centers, you know, for the AI arms race that's heating up, like this whole thing.
00:34:41.679 -->
00:34:46.559I mean the AI AI arms race that they're export controlling and neutering.
00:34:46.559 -->
00:34:50.639Well, I mean that's probably just for certain companies, one company.
00:34:50.960 -->
00:34:54.559Yeah, who just who just happened to, you know, refuse them before.
00:34:54.559 -->
00:34:57.360So anyway, let's let's not go down that rabbit hole.
00:34:57.360 -->
00:34:59.039But that that's kind of my point, right?
00:34:59.039 -->
00:35:04.639Is that there's there's a lot being shoved down people's throats on this thing, and making it efficient is a good thing, right?
00:35:04.639 -->
00:35:05.599This is a good thing.
00:35:05.599 -->
00:35:17.119Uh Amazon, I mean, there let's be honest, no, no person who makes things more efficient, generally no company that makes things more efficient is doing it because they want the you know, that's all they need is the goodwill of the people, right?
00:35:17.119 -->
00:35:29.039They're also trying to save money and whatnot, but then you have to get into the deals that these guys are these data centers are having for like the you know, low cost energy, low cost water, like just below what the public play pays.
00:35:29.039 -->
00:35:33.280And you start to see that just man, this is this is all kind of screwed up.
00:35:33.280 -->
00:35:38.239But anyway, before we get too far down that rabbit hole, um, I don't know.
00:35:38.239 -->
00:35:40.719I think we should I we're I think we're coming up on time.
00:35:40.719 -->
00:35:42.320We'll go ahead and close this up.
00:35:42.320 -->
00:35:45.119Uh any final any final thoughts for this week?
00:35:45.440 -->
00:35:48.880It'll be interesting to see where this is all at in five to ten years.
00:35:48.880 -->
00:35:50.880Um terrifying and interesting.
00:35:50.880 -->
00:36:01.840Um you know, one of the ongoing things that like, you know, just even in the last month is, you know, like you know, Q1 of this year, like um, or even last year.
00:36:01.840 -->
00:36:05.519Um, you know, a lot of companies were like, we're going do we're doing AI first.
00:36:05.519 -->
00:36:09.679We we're gonna have leaderboards for whoever is using the most AI and celebrate them.
00:36:09.679 -->
00:36:21.360And the the prices of AI, uh like using AI tokens, everything has gone up and people have, you know, companies are now asking people to to you know to uh stop using it as much.
00:36:21.360 -->
00:36:23.840Not sp not spend as much money.
00:36:23.840 -->
00:36:48.639So like this rush to build as many uh AI data centers as possible and stuff like that, it'll be interesting because we're we're kind of getting to this this point where these two colliding interests are gonna hit, like the the the need to buy like to create new AI data centers and build more resources, but also companies starting to realize this might be more exing AI might be more expensive than actually having human bodies.
00:36:48.639 -->
00:36:58.960And so I'm wondering if i I'm I'm interested to see in five, ten years time, do these models become efficient enough that they're not no longer more expensive than human beings?
00:36:58.960 -->
00:37:11.679Um are these all these data centers that they're building, you know, uh, you know, to try to be competitive, are they going to really be used, you know, in five, ten years if the model prices keep going up?
00:37:11.679 -->
00:37:15.440Um and how are companies going to react if the prices do go up?
00:37:15.440 -->
00:37:21.199Are they gonna cut back on AI and basically make this all this whole thing like void?
00:37:21.199 -->
00:37:24.079Or, you know, it'll be interesting to see where this goes.
00:37:24.079 -->
00:37:29.360Obviously, think this is like our our industry, like any tech tech changes all the time.
00:37:29.360 -->
00:37:31.599Things change, sentiment changes.
00:37:31.599 -->
00:37:34.000So it'll be interesting to see where it goes.
00:37:34.000 -->
00:37:35.920And that's just kind of my final thought on it.
00:37:35.920 -->
00:37:38.480Obviously, I don't have a crystal ball, neither do you.
00:37:38.480 -->
00:37:44.000We're just kind of vibing it out as well and watching things change on like a monthly or quarterly basis.
00:37:44.000 -->
00:37:46.400Like last quarter, use more AI.
00:37:46.400 -->
00:37:50.000This quarter, a lot of companies are like, use less AI, wait, stop.
00:37:50.000 -->
00:37:57.039Like Microsoft told everyone to stop uh to cut back on token usage and start canceling subscriptions because it got to be too expensive.
00:37:57.280 -->
00:37:58.000Yeah, yeah, yeah.
00:37:58.000 -->
00:38:01.760So uh one thing uh you reminded me, and then we'll we'll close it out.
00:38:01.760 -->
00:38:05.679Um, so one thing I've been saying this for a while, Chris has been saying this for a while.
00:38:05.679 -->
00:38:19.360So, way back our our like fourth episode, maybe like this is you know almost three years ago now or whatever, we were talking about cloud, and we were talking about where are the savings that we were promised.
00:38:19.360 -->
00:38:23.840Because part of the whole thing about going cloud first was we're gonna give you an economy of scale.
00:38:23.840 -->
00:38:36.559Like AWS, all the people were like, we're gonna give you an economy of scale because we have all this gear, we have all this capacity, we can make it more affordable for you to run your stuff with us than you could build your own.
00:38:36.559 -->
00:38:37.840Now that was the promise.
00:38:37.840 -->
00:38:53.519And why the reason it never materialized, which we posited at the time, was right, it they couldn't actually lower costs because if they lowered costs, you would have so many people come in that you'd be DDoSing your own, like every customer would be be snatching the the limited capacity.
00:38:53.519 -->
00:39:05.039And I think I've been saying again for a while that a the the the AI thing is very close to what the cloud how the cloud thing played out is that it's the same thing, right?
00:39:05.039 -->
00:39:10.880So that what they're doing is frantically trying to build capacity, but they've run up against physics, right?
00:39:10.880 -->
00:39:20.800There's there's not enough rare earth that you can't get the rare earths out of the ground fast enough, you can't fab the the chips fast enough, you can't build, you can't stand up the materials fast or the data centers.
00:39:20.800 -->
00:39:22.239Can't buy RAM fast enough.
00:39:22.239 -->
00:39:23.280Can't buy RAM fast.
00:39:23.280 -->
00:39:24.079That's what I'm saying.
00:39:24.079 -->
00:39:35.599You can't create it fast enough, and that's why half of these data centers have been canceled or mothballed for a while, not just because they've been pushed out, but even the ones that were accepted, simply that there's nothing to put in them, right?
00:39:35.599 -->
00:39:45.679Like so um I think we're gonna see, and now that we are in real time seeing the same, and now people are saying things like AI first, the you know, they used to say cloud first.
00:39:45.679 -->
00:39:46.559It was the same thing.
00:39:46.559 -->
00:39:48.880We'll do everything with AI, we'll do everything with cloud.
00:39:48.880 -->
00:39:56.159It's really interesting to see the cycle repeat itself with a with a different technology, and I know it's the same as it ever was.
00:39:56.159 -->
00:39:58.800You go back and and that's always been the case, right?
00:39:58.800 -->
00:40:08.239But it's it's really interesting to live through two cycles that are so closely put together and see the same exact type of uh behavior anyway.
00:40:08.559 -->
00:40:17.599I was also gonna say, like, one of the weird things about this day and age, like cloud, like when c cloud first happened though, like it wasn't about replacing people.
00:40:17.599 -->
00:40:25.760Like, though I did hear a lot of people saying, Oh, we're not gonna need network engineers anymore and stuff like that, and I'm like, You're still gonna have to connect to the cloud, you idiot.
00:40:26.000 -->
00:40:26.960Yeah, yeah, yeah, exactly.
00:40:27.280 -->
00:40:30.559I mean, you still are gonna need infrastructure at you know at offices.
00:40:30.559 -->
00:40:39.440But um, yeah, cloud was you know initially gonna be some savings, and then there's like, okay, it's not savings, it's just opex cost instead of capex cost.
00:40:39.599 -->
00:40:39.760Right.
00:40:40.000 -->
00:40:44.719And then um, yeah, it it certainly hasn't made it cheaper for anyone uh at at this point.
00:40:44.719 -->
00:41:08.000But AI first has been interesting because the promise is to replace humans in a lot of these things, or at least like the idea is, and it's interesting because the stock market is actually like 10 years ago, five years ago, if you laid off if you were a company laying off a cr a shit ton of people, uh, pardon my French, um, you basically it was a sign of instability of like you're not doing well.
00:41:08.000 -->
00:41:11.119These it's so stock prices would potentially get hit.
00:41:11.119 -->
00:41:15.679These days, you lay off 30,000 people, it's seen as innovative.
00:41:15.679 -->
00:41:18.639It's innovative because you're doing so much with AI.
00:41:18.639 -->
00:41:21.519So you're actually rewarded and you get a stock price bump.
00:41:21.519 -->
00:41:24.079I'm more curious to see how long that'll last for.
00:41:24.400 -->
00:41:25.119Yeah, I agree.
00:41:25.119 -->
00:41:28.880And I don't think I think the the chickens have to come home to a roost on that one.
00:41:28.880 -->
00:41:30.880You can't cut, but so far without impact.
00:41:30.880 -->
00:41:32.079So all right, let's go ahead.
00:41:32.559 -->
00:41:35.199It's starting to with the the cost of AI raise uh rising.
00:41:35.360 -->
00:41:36.000Yeah, yeah, yeah.
00:41:36.000 -->
00:41:37.119Agreed, agreed.
00:41:37.119 -->
00:41:39.199So all right, we'll go ahead and wrap it up here.
00:41:39.199 -->
00:41:43.840Uh thanks for joining us um this month on the Cables Clouds monthly update.
00:41:43.840 -->
00:41:46.079Hopefully next time we'll have Chris with us.
00:41:46.079 -->
00:41:49.599And uh oh yeah, Chris wanted to make sure to apologize.
00:41:49.599 -->
00:41:51.679I'm sorry we missed our our uh release.
00:41:51.679 -->
00:41:53.840It's our first time ever missing a release.
00:41:53.840 -->
00:42:00.000Catherine and I were super busy with Cisco Live, and Chris was, I don't know, I don't know, maybe he was drinking.
00:42:00.000 -->
00:42:02.559I'm I'm not sure what he was up to, but I'm just kidding.
00:42:02.880 -->
00:42:04.719He was yelling at us to get unbusy.
00:42:04.719 -->
00:42:06.800Oh yeah, that's right, he was yelling us to record it.
00:42:06.800 -->
00:42:10.880But no, it's it's it's all good.
00:42:10.880 -->
00:42:15.679We actually have a bunch of people lined up for interviews and and uh and shows.
00:42:15.679 -->
00:42:19.199We might actually end up having a backlog of uh of stuff soon enough.
00:42:19.679 -->
00:42:20.639Which will be nice.
00:42:20.639 -->
00:42:24.960So, okay, we'll see everybody on the next episode, and thanks for joining us to go.
