Coaching That Sticks: High-Impact Strategies from Dr. Matthew Rhodes

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Welcome back to another episode of C3. I'm Courtney Groskin,
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and I'm here with Sandy Heiser. Sandy, what's new in your world?
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Oh my gosh, Courtney, back to school is in full force. Did you have a good summer?
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Yeah, it was great to take some time off in between our COG coach training and
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everything else we had going on this summer, but lots of time in the garden,
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lots of time in the yard with pickles. What about you?
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Yeah, same thing. Well, and you read a lot of books. We both read like crazy
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this summer. We read some really great books.
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Yeah, lots of good reading happening. And we did get outside a little bit.
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Got some paddling in with the dogs.
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So can't complain. It was great. Nice.
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Today we're joined by Dr. Matthew Rhodes. He is an educational,
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technology, AI, and instructional strategy expert specializing in K-12 adult and higher education.
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As a technology and instructional leader, coach, trainer, and professional learning
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specialist, he helps educators integrate research-based instructional strategies
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with ed tech and AI in cross in-person blended and online learning environments.
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Dr. Rhodes also serves as a doctoral dissertation chair, coaching students through
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the research, writing, and defense process.
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His publications focus on using technology to amplify teaching and learning.
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His books include Crush It From the Start, 25 Tips for Instructional Coaches
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and Leaders, Co-Teaching Evolved, Crush It From the Start, 50 Tips for New Teachers,
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Instruction Without Boundaries, Amplify Learning, and Navigating the Toggle Term.
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He also hosts Navigating Education, the podcast, exploring topics related to
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education, technology, and instruction. Welcome, Dr. Rhodes.
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Well, thank you so much for joining us today. Welcome to C3.
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Can you tell us about your experience in education?
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Yeah, so I am currently supporting about 100 teachers now in my position,
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supporting a lot of career education,
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teachers, as well as new teachers and pre-service teachers through my day job and my university work.
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So I see teachers on, you know, just starting their career as well as seasoned
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teachers and also within, you know, really young,
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you know, guys from like the TK all the way up to post-secondary.
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So it's really cool to see and develop teachers across all, you know,
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essentially all age levels and most content areas and also in some dual language
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contexts where they're doing both English and Spanish.
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So it's a really cool spectrum.
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Well, we appreciate your university work because that makes our job a lot easier
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when we go to hire these teachers that are really ready to jump in.
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Yeah, certainly. And it's hiring season right now. So a number of my teachers
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are just getting into applying for positions. And it's always fun to see the
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next few months where teachers land right when they're beginning their career.
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And just really telling them, you know, it's all about trying to find the right
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fit, culture, and, you know, getting the support around you to be successful.
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It's so critical those first five years.
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Nice. Well, Dr. Rhodes, I know we're talking about coaching today,
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but I did want to mention we had about 10 pairs of new co-teachers start at my school last year.
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Just this school year that's finishing, and we kind of created a year-long support
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system slash PD for them, and we drew on several books.
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But we used your co-teaching book, the Co-Teaching Evolved, as one of our sources.
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And we would meet like once a month, once every two months, and just get together,
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check in, and then try to draw from several different books.
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But yours was one of them. And so we finished the year.
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Pretty successful co-teaching. So anyway, appreciate that.
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Oh, of course. No, I'm really happy that you guys were able to use the book
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and use a blueprint for your program.
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And, you know, in the future, just let me know how it's going after the first
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year. You know, it's that the process, like with coaching, you're building a
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program, you're building systems to support teachers and so that teachers can
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be successful in the classroom. So that's really cool.
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Yeah, it was. I mean, the hope, of course, was always that the pairs would stay
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together for at least two years.
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And we, you know, just due to master scheduling, not everyone stayed together,
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but we'll see. We're going to build on on what we did this year.
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But so for a coaching question, in your experience, what's the most common mistake,
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instructional coaches or leaders make early on and how can they avoid it from the start?
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I'll start from a leadership perspective first and then talk about how coaches can navigate this.
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Sometimes I think when you go to districts, there's a lot of really not a true
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definition of what an instructional coach does and essentially like what are their goals?
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And when they go to different school sites, there's no goals in place related
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to what instructional coaches do.
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They do a lot of things that is not coaching.
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So they end up being a glorified sub on campus, or they are mostly navigating
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behavior, or they're essentially a mini assistant principal,
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but they're not paying assistant principal wages.
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So I think that there's a lot to be said about defining what the instructional
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coach does from a district and school site level so that you can actually have
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the coach go and coach teachers.
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And additionally what does that coaching look like what are the expectations
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for that coaching to look like is it mostly going to be more you know what we
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call pop observations where there's pre-observation observation post post-observation
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or there's going to be something where you're utilizing like night's impact
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cycle or for example the grow model or for example you're going to have a lot
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of on-the-spot coaching
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where the coach will go into the classroom and support teachers.
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When they have time, whether it's, you know, during their passing periods or
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lunch or right after school or right before school, or they'll jump in and push
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into lessons to help co-teach to a degree.
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I think setting up those parameters of like what the expectation is of what
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the coach is going to be doing with teachers, it's really key.
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And as a coach, I think it's really important to be navigating,
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like trying to figure out your own lane and your systems as a coach within the
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parameters they give you because every
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site you go to every district you're gonna go to it's gonna be a little bit different and,
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you're gonna be navigating that lane that they have either paid for you or you're
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gonna have to pay it yourself and i think just
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really the goal is to focus on the coaching piece versus everything else i think
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if you really want to leverage that as a resource,
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that has to happen and i often see that you know,
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very commonplace where these you know these roles aren't defined or the goals
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of the coach aren't defined and then the coach is doing a lot of things that
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are not coaching and that's not what the coach is.
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Supposed to do i think so that's what i see from like a leadership level and
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then from a coaching level i see coaches tend to,
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not focus on coaching because they're worried about everything else that they
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need to do and they don't have a system.
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So for example, when they're observing teachers and they're collecting data.
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They essentially don't have that in place and have to build it themselves.
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And I think that's something that the district or school needs to help support
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building them. Or for example, there's a formal observation rubric for teachers,
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but there isn't a coaching observation rubric.
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I think that that's important, too. So we want to make sure that the coach knows
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what they need to do and make sure that they don't have duties along the side,
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as well as they have that foundational piece so that they can go in,
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and have something that they can do to collect data and actually measure the
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coaching that they're doing so that they can, you know, start on the right foot and coach.
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Also, too, I think a lot of coaches come into coaching without having a lot
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of coaching experience. They may have worked with maybe a pre-service teacher
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before, but sometimes coaches come in really hot and sometimes they come in really cold.
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So I think if you've seen a number of instructional coaches in your career,
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you've seen people that are very enthusiastic.
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And then you see people that are really kind of timid at times,
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especially working with teachers that may not be as open to coaching.
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So I think that that's something for them to, you know, really take into consideration
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as well as I think when you're starting to coach, especially if you're a new
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coach to a site, you need to make sure that you're everywhere.
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So everyone knows who you are and be very clear along with administration.
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What are your goals and your intentions? Because sometimes when there's never
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been a coach there, it could be very invasive, the teachers.
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And it takes you know some time for the ground to thaw,
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and when it becomes more normalized hey this person's coming into your classroom
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you know a number of times a week or hey you'll see them you know every month,
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or they're going to be pushing in to your classroom to help you co-teach as
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you're trying to learn this new strategy or ed tech tool for example,
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so those are the types of you know, things that I always like to talk to school
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leaders and coaches about because when you're starting out.
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It's essential.
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Yeah, we hear that time and time again about setting the expectations,
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meeting with the leadership up front and finding out what the goal is as a coach,
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what the expectations are, and really defining that job description.
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So out of your book, there's 25 amazing tips. Which one tends to create the
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biggest impact when implemented well.
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Oh, man, that's a really tough question. I like to say that there's several.
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If you pin them together, it's going to be helpful.
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I think it just depends on where you're at as a coach. And, you know,
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if you're just starting out or you've done this before. Or so,
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I mean, I think first and foremost, as I kind of just mentioned before, just being visible.
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I think being visible is key, but also really as you're, I call it the mobile coach.
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While you're evaluating kind of, you know, the site itself and the teachers,
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it's really understanding really who are people that are most willing to be coached.
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And i talk a lot about in the book it's called the diffusion of innovation where
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if a coach knows like hey you have 20 of people that are going to be very enthusiastic
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to be coached that's the first group that you want to start coaching,
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and then as you move into six months to a year to two years you want to focus
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on what we call the mid-majority the mid-majority is where if you can get the
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mid-majority which is like say like.
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20% are the enthusiasm, they're enthusiastic. Then if you could get from like
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20% to 60%, that's where you're going to start getting whole systems change.
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So, and there are people that are going to be more willing as you move more
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from the enthusiast because they're going to say good things about your coaching.
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And when you get to that middle ground, you're going to get more people to buy in.
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And if you can get that 60% bought in, There might be that 20% that may not
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be fully bought in, but you're going to have close to 60 to 80% of the school,
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on board of what you're trying to do and trying to improve in that area,
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in that focus area, or maybe like two to three things.
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So that's really critical. And a lot of coaches don't see that at first.
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And I think leaders need to have conversations with coaches as well to kind of talk about,
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you know, this is the first set of people that we really want to work with,
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but we know that they're going to be more willing to try this to start or to
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refine these practices.
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I would say that the next thing that relates to this, but also is,
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I think, a little bit different by combining the first tip of the book,
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active listening, with tip number 11, think less is more.
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I think that ultimately as a coach, you should be listening more at first in
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your coaching conversations with teachers than actually delivering any coaching
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because you need to understand that there's a lot of context,
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that goes into a lesson and how they teach.
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So I think asking questions about, you know, how have you done your backwards
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design and really listening and hearing them out, like talking about the entire
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process and then going into your lesson, you know, why did you design it this way?
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Well, you know, the sequence of this hour or two hour lesson,
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you know, tell me about the process in your thinking as to putting this together.
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And then, you know, when they're teaching specifically, focus on one or two
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areas and really just hear them out and ask them, like, why do you do a foot
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right at the very beginning of the lesson?
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Or why are you, you know, why are you using a concept math to explain this concept?
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I mean, I think just the goal in any early coaching conversations is to actively
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listen and learn everything you can about that teacher and build that trust
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in that relationship. But understand, like, why are they doing things the way that they're doing it?
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Because then that's going to give you that context that you're going to need
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and that information needs.
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Think about everyone's going to be a little bit different, but you're going
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to have to press certain buttons and you're going to have to focus on certain
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areas that they talk to you about.
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I like more of the dialogical coaching in terms of my coaching style.
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I like to listen and then hear them speak and then have a dialogue about it
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versus more of authoritative coaching.
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But that's just my particular style. And I talk about several different ways
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of how to have coaching conversations in the book, including those two.
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But then moving into the thought of once you have that information throughout
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listening, you want to think less is more.
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You don't want to focus on too many things in your coaching.
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Focus on one of three things max with a teacher, and then you try to measure those things over time.
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And oftentimes, as new coaches, you try to focus on too many things at once,
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and you're not going to make that growth.
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And I think in education, we focus on too many things at one time,
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versus we should focus on really, really high leverage areas that can really
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support student learning.
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But also, I think it's important to teach teachers practices that are also ways,
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that can help them be more sustainable in their practices and what ways to be more efficient.
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Like, for example, when I work with ELI teachers, especially at the high school
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level, I always ask them, I would not recommend reading everyone's entire essay,
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for every single part of it.
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I would say, let's focus on one area that we're working on. you know say we're working on
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finding evidence related to a thesis statement so you're going to look at the
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thesis statement and then a number of areas of evidence you're not going to
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read almost the entirety of the paper you're going to read parts of it
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and you're going to be evaluating those pieces because if you're reading the entirety of the paper
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and assessing every single one it's going to take you hours and hours and hours to do this,
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versus if we're focused on this,
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we'll spend a lot less time and then when we provide the whole class feedback
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or individualized feedback,
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you're going to get a lot more bang for your buck because it's, you know,
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it's only a couple of things that you're assessing and then you can go back
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and reteach that versus focusing on the entirety of the paper and spending all that time.
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And I think just really focusing on practices that not only are effective in
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terms of evidence based, but I think in terms of sustainability are really,
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really important when you're supporting teachers.
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Yeah, I really love that idea of asking, just you talking about listening and
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asking people why, you know, why do you do the things that you do and what,
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just wonder how many have never even thought about why they do it that way or
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how helpful it is to then say, oh, I guess let me, let me do a think aloud about
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why I do that. And that's instructive in itself.
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It really is. That metacognition piece is really critical, I think,
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for a lot of things in life.
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I think a lot of things that we try to answer, we can answer ourselves by thinking
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about what we're thinking and having someone facilitate that in that dialogue.
00:17:21.991 --> 00:17:28.123
Yeah. Well, you talked about coaches that come in cold, coaches that come in
00:17:28.123 --> 00:17:30.213
hot, just those different approaches.
00:17:30.213 --> 00:17:35.113
Is what's a mistake or maybe just a misstep that even an experienced coach might
00:17:35.113 --> 00:17:39.676
make when trying to move a teacher forward and what would be your fix for it?
00:17:40.501 --> 00:17:44.033
I think with teachers that may be a little bit more difficult than you're a
00:17:44.033 --> 00:17:49.237
veteran, I think that you need to really understand, you know,
00:17:50.038 --> 00:17:52.360
this idea of who to coach and when to coach.
00:17:52.901 --> 00:17:58.075
It's kind of like having certain conversations with people when, say, for example,
00:17:58.742 --> 00:18:03.283
this one teacher's going to you want to coach them you know at the beginning
00:18:03.283 --> 00:18:05.883
of the year middle year or versus the end of the year,
00:18:06.359 --> 00:18:09.903
you want to see like when that teacher is going to be I would say especially
00:18:09.903 --> 00:18:13.917
if they're more resistant when's a good time of year when they're least busy
00:18:14.259 --> 00:18:19.031
when are they going to not be as busy as they were in the past and I think,
00:18:19.640 --> 00:18:25.773
some coaches really need to understand when teachers are really busy especially
00:18:25.773 --> 00:18:29.523
certain teachers in different contact areas grade levels like for example we
00:18:29.523 --> 00:18:32.209
just finished in california state testing.
00:18:33.191 --> 00:18:36.524
It's probably not a good time to do a lot of coaching at that time,
00:18:36.998 --> 00:18:40.844
but also, you know, different times of the year for certain teachers,
00:18:40.844 --> 00:18:42.548
it's important to understand,
00:18:43.180 --> 00:18:48.264
you know, what's going on in their classrooms and what are the big challenges that they're having.
00:18:48.264 --> 00:18:53.794
And are they trying to find time when the teacher's under the least amount of
00:18:53.794 --> 00:18:59.674
stress, especially if they are a little bit more, you know, defensive or don't want the coaching?
00:18:59.674 --> 00:19:05.492
I think you've got to find those openings, and sometimes that's not necessarily an easy thing to do.
00:19:05.741 --> 00:19:09.056
Sometimes that takes a lot of experience, understanding.
00:19:09.974 --> 00:19:14.194
It's like the emotional intelligence skill of reading people and understanding,
00:19:15.336 --> 00:19:18.614
what's going on in their schedule and workflow.
00:19:18.614 --> 00:19:26.794
So it's something that is not necessarily an easy thing that someone can do,
00:19:26.794 --> 00:19:29.727
regardless of whether they're new or seasoned in doing that.
00:19:30.679 --> 00:19:35.034
I'm hearing a lot of intentionality about stepping back and reading the room,
00:19:35.374 --> 00:19:38.641
so to speak, but really getting to know the culture of the building and maybe
00:19:38.995 --> 00:19:42.604
the flow of the building when things might slow down a little and what might
00:19:42.604 --> 00:19:44.369
be the prime opportunity
00:19:44.793 --> 00:19:46.325
to work with certain people.
00:19:47.429 --> 00:19:53.704
Yeah 100% and I think that you know as a instructional coach you should be able
00:19:53.704 --> 00:19:56.026
to see the master schedule,
00:19:56.663 --> 00:20:01.644
and really evaluate the master schedule as to why it's set up that way but also
00:20:01.644 --> 00:20:04.145
then you need to be strategic in terms of,
00:20:05.172 --> 00:20:07.480
groups of teachers that you're working with or teachers that you're working
00:20:07.480 --> 00:20:11.770
with that can be best optimized within the constraints of that master schedule.
00:20:11.770 --> 00:20:16.756
Because obviously there's contract, there's union things that you need to take into account.
00:20:17.784 --> 00:20:22.490
But I think that understanding, I mean, it's one of the key facets of when I
00:20:22.490 --> 00:20:26.830
go and talk to school leaders and coaches is that your master schedule is one
00:20:26.830 --> 00:20:30.284
of the biggest, you know, significant pieces of your school culture.
00:20:31.290 --> 00:20:35.930
It tells you what's important versus what's not important when you look at that.
00:20:36.255 --> 00:20:40.990
And trying to find ways to help improve your staff within those constraints,
00:20:41.930 --> 00:20:45.148
it's really key for you to try to navigate.
00:20:45.317 --> 00:20:50.269
So that's really important there. But also I think that when you look at schools,
00:20:51.132 --> 00:20:55.140
you need to figure out as a coach too to develop ways where you're providing
00:20:55.140 --> 00:20:58.410
coaching, even though you might not be physically in those classrooms.
00:20:58.410 --> 00:21:03.390
So I always recommend sending out a bulletin where you're at that week.
00:21:03.730 --> 00:21:06.700
Say, for example, if you're multi-site, you could say, hey, I'm at this site
00:21:06.700 --> 00:21:10.830
for a.m. and p.m. in the afternoon on Tuesday.
00:21:11.150 --> 00:21:15.363
And then I'm here at this site on Wednesday and a.m. But I always like to throw
00:21:15.768 --> 00:21:20.280
a coaching tip or a video in that little newsletter that I send out so they
00:21:20.280 --> 00:21:22.981
could watch, you know, about 30 seconds to a minute.
00:21:23.120 --> 00:21:28.770
Or it can be, I like to do infographics of, you know, a particular teaching
00:21:28.770 --> 00:21:30.463
strategy. I think that's really helpful.
00:21:30.880 --> 00:21:34.396
But then you also have a little website, maybe it's with the district of,
00:21:34.953 --> 00:21:38.599
you know, what's happening with coaching this year? What are we working on?
00:21:39.208 --> 00:21:42.300
And then what are some examples of, you know, whether they're infographics,
00:21:42.300 --> 00:21:45.770
concept maps, as well as videos, so that you can always just pull from that
00:21:45.770 --> 00:21:50.010
each week so that you can have that available whenever and you can send that
00:21:50.010 --> 00:21:52.200
out whenever and refer to it whenever.
00:21:52.200 --> 00:21:56.330
So you have constraints, but when you have information that can be available
00:21:56.330 --> 00:21:59.977
24-7, I think that's really critical.
00:22:01.100 --> 00:22:04.193
Yeah, and then that's a good way to read how people are ready when they want
00:22:04.193 --> 00:22:07.253
to engage in a conversation, maybe about something that was in the newsletter.
00:22:07.695 --> 00:22:11.313
Then that's your door kind of cracking open to maybe say that,
00:22:11.313 --> 00:22:14.563
you know what, this is the right time to go in and coach that person or get
00:22:14.563 --> 00:22:16.632
a cycle set up. Definitely.
00:22:17.417 --> 00:22:21.063
So coaching, we know, can feel isolating at times. It's one of those one-off
00:22:21.063 --> 00:22:24.370
positions when you're often the only coach in a building.
00:22:24.799 --> 00:22:28.893
What do you recommend for coaches to maintain their own energy and avoid burnout
00:22:28.893 --> 00:22:30.388
while pouring into others?
00:22:31.128 --> 00:22:34.463
Yeah. So, I mean, if you're in a district where there's other instructional
00:22:34.463 --> 00:22:39.923
coaches, I hope that you're meeting maybe like once a month or you have a group chat going.
00:22:39.923 --> 00:22:45.532
Or if you're a singleton in your school or district, then I recommend,
00:22:45.765 --> 00:22:51.663
you know, connecting with other coaches on LinkedIn or app slash Twitter.
00:22:52.003 --> 00:22:57.723
There's different coaching through Google has coaching groups as well as does
00:22:57.723 --> 00:22:58.873
other organizations like Digital
00:22:58.873 --> 00:23:02.950
Promise. They had coaching resources and groups that you could join.
00:23:03.322 --> 00:23:06.653
So I think finding people like similar to anything else in life,
00:23:06.653 --> 00:23:10.769
you need to find people that are doing something maybe somewhat similar to you,
00:23:11.269 --> 00:23:16.667
and start meeting, whether that's like monthly or having a group chat going or whatever.
00:23:17.636 --> 00:23:24.034
You know, just a list of people that you can always contact and share your experiences with.
00:23:24.034 --> 00:23:28.344
Because if you can't share your experiences with anyone, then you're not going
00:23:28.344 --> 00:23:33.634
to have maybe that shared understanding or maybe sometimes don't feel like you're
00:23:33.634 --> 00:23:38.184
being listened to because they don't understand fully the work that you're doing.
00:23:38.184 --> 00:23:42.834
So I think finding people that are doing something similar to you is critical.
00:23:42.834 --> 00:23:45.134
And there's a lot of different outlets that you can find that.
00:23:45.134 --> 00:23:51.854
And then for sustainability, I think just in order to not burn out, it's all about systems.
00:23:51.854 --> 00:23:56.464
If you don't have systems, then you're not going to navigate this well.
00:23:56.464 --> 00:24:00.014
So like, for example, one of the systems that I always like is I'm going to
00:24:00.014 --> 00:24:06.584
go do a lot of my on the spot coaching or observations during these times of
00:24:06.584 --> 00:24:09.774
the day, like from nine to 11.
00:24:09.774 --> 00:24:13.247
That's what's happening at that time. That's my non-negotiable.
00:24:13.537 --> 00:24:15.946
I'm not going to get hold of anything else during that time.
00:24:16.573 --> 00:24:20.534
At 3 p.m. or like 2 to 3 p.m., I'm going to sit down and do all my email and
00:24:20.534 --> 00:24:23.220
paperwork. That's my non-negotiable.
00:24:23.684 --> 00:24:25.854
Or, for example, I'm going to
00:24:25.854 --> 00:24:30.008
do coaching cycles where I'm going to do my pre-observations on Mondays.
00:24:30.397 --> 00:24:34.629
I'm going to do my observations on Wednesday that week. And then on Friday,
00:24:34.925 --> 00:24:38.031
I'm going to do my post-observations. I'm going to try and schedule as many as I can.
00:24:39.284 --> 00:24:42.872
Also, for example, like the website, the newsletter, I think is critical that
00:24:42.872 --> 00:24:47.669
you can constantly just be utilizing as well as having a data collection system.
00:24:47.971 --> 00:24:53.962
And I always recommend not try to reinvent the wheel. So if your district has
00:24:53.962 --> 00:24:57.102
a data collection system or if you need to use one yourself,
00:24:57.102 --> 00:24:58.482
I always recommend Connect Hub.
00:24:58.926 --> 00:25:02.972
But I think just it's all based on systems. And if you don't have systems or
00:25:02.972 --> 00:25:06.083
you're not organized, then that's how you're going to create burnout.
00:25:06.407 --> 00:25:11.942
And that goes back again to the very beginning of defining what the coach does,
00:25:11.942 --> 00:25:16.722
because if the coach has more roles than just coaching, they're more likely to burn out.
00:25:16.722 --> 00:25:22.292
So I think it's really, really critical to really define what the coach is doing
00:25:22.292 --> 00:25:26.836
at first and building systems of what that actually looks like.
00:25:27.755 --> 00:25:31.532
Great advice. We're going to jump into the rapid fire portion.
00:25:31.532 --> 00:25:37.901
So in about 10 seconds or less, what's one strategy every coach should have in their back pocket?
00:25:38.949 --> 00:25:45.892
All right. One is, I think, just being able to model the strategy really well
00:25:45.892 --> 00:25:49.942
before you actually go and coach a teacher on that particular strategy.
00:25:49.942 --> 00:25:54.622
Make sure you know you're doing it right before you try to coach it. Yes.
00:25:56.130 --> 00:25:59.532
If you had 60 seconds with a new coach, what's something you would tell them?
00:26:00.449 --> 00:26:06.042
I would say to be visible, actively listen, use AI to help you do a lot of your
00:26:06.042 --> 00:26:13.163
paperwork, and develop systems so that you can create a sustainable practice.
00:26:14.353 --> 00:26:17.072
Thank you so much, Matt. We really enjoyed our conversation today,
00:26:17.072 --> 00:26:19.484
and you had some great advice for all of our coaches.
00:26:20.378 --> 00:26:24.122
Thanks, Matt. Thanks for having me. Matt gave us so many practical tips for
00:26:24.122 --> 00:26:25.661
coaches to start at the school year.
00:26:25.986 --> 00:26:29.318
We're wishing everyone a wonderful 26-27 year.
00:26:29.695 --> 00:26:33.056
Be sure to follow us on social media. Thanks for listening to C3.