Coaching for Every Learner: Joy De Los Santos

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Welcome back to another episode of C3. I'm Courtney Groskin and I'm here with Sandy Heiser.
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Sandy, what's new in your world?
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Oh, you know what? We, I mean, you just facilitated day five of Cognitive Coaching
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Foundation seminar. That was fun.
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It was a blast. I mean, they're long days, but just the content is so good.
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I know. It's, it's, even though it is a full Saturday, it really is a bucket filler those days.
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Yeah, and I'll have to brag a little. We've got a cohort of,
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what, 35 people this time, and they are so dedicated.
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Like, we go for a quick 45-minute lunch, and they come back,
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and they have, like, more energy than they did in the morning because they're
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just so excited to learn.
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Yeah, they really do. They're a good group. We're very fortunate. it.
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And our model this week was a planning conversation. And it was just so cool
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to watch his shifts and his beamers that he had and just diving in and seeing
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where that coaching conversation can move someone and shift their thinking.
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Well, what I loved about the shift that he had when he had that conversation was,
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When she asked him, where are you now compared to when we started?
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And he said, his first words, I think, were, I feel better. And what more could you want?
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Exactly. You felt more empowered. And what was it, like a 20-minute conversation?
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And he leaves feeling empowered.
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It's just like, there's so much power in a coaching conversation.
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Agreed. Today, we have Joy De Los Santos joining us on C3.
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Joy has spent over 20 years in special education, teaching students from early
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childhood through high school in both district and cooperative settings.
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She now co-leads an instructional coaching team that supports classrooms across
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nine districts, helping educators strengthen inclusive and supportive practices
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for students with disabilities.
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Joy holds a degree from the University of Illinois, Urbana-Champaign,
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and a governor, State University, and Concordia University of Chicago.
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She lives in Illinois with her husband, daughter, and their pet s'mores,
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Tina and Hammy. Welcome, Joy.
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Hi, Joy. Welcome to C3. We're so glad you could join us today.
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Oh, thank you for having me. Yeah. Can you share with us and our listeners what
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inspired you to become a special education coach and what that journey has looked like for you?
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Yeah, of course. I have been in public education for 21 years now.
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All of that has been in the special ed realm.
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But for the past seven years, I've been in administration and it kind of came
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up, you know, we didn't have coaches when I was coming through.
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That just wasn't a thing. And when it did start coming through,
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it was more content based.
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So there are a lot like math coaches, reading coaches, things like that.
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There really wasn't anything for those of us who kind of had to teach all of the content.
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And so when I was an administrator, one of my, I think...
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First tasks kind of in the role I am now is my director had come to us and we
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were talking about the high turnover rate, especially with brand new teachers
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and saying, how can we help support these teachers?
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We were also seeing a rapid increase. So I work for a special education cooperative,
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so districts can refer students to us if their needs are too great.
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And we were seeing a really high increase in number of students being referred.
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And so we said, not only do we want to support our teachers,
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but we also want to support our teachers in supporting our students.
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So that as much as possible, we want to keep our students in district with their
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gen ed peers, you know, as much as we possibly can. So we were looking at different ways to do that.
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And we came across Jim Knight's work, and that kind of started the whole ball rolling.
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So I started primarily just as the admin, getting everything set up.
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Then we added another administrator to the team.
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And we did, we had Amy Musante come in from ICG and her and I connected and
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it kind of just started the ball rolling from there.
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I've done, most of my work has been more on the admin side, but now that we've
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established our team and we were really, as administrators, we were really focused
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on supporting our coaches and making sure that they had what they needed and
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figuring out, like, how do we do this?
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And then, you know, now that we've kind of feel pretty solid in that,
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we are starting to open up some new things where I am getting more opportunities
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to be on the ground in the classroom coaching, which I'm super excited about as well.
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So we're all coaches at heart, no matter what our title may be.
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If we're using Jim's work, and I heard you talk about support.
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So no matter what the role is, we know coaching is at the heart and that often
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is seen then throughout the work.
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Yeah, yeah, for sure. Well, I love that you're back in classrooms,
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too. That's always fun. Yes, yes.
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It's been a while since I've been able to be in the classrooms for any significant amount of time.
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So I'm really excited to be back in the classrooms. And we're doing some leadership coaching, too.
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So we're going to be working with leaders and helping new leaders get their
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feet on the ground. So, yeah. Love that.
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Okay, well, for teachers who feel overwhelmed by IEP requirements,
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kind of what we were chatting about before we recorded, or supporting diverse
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learners, what's one strategy you always recommend that has a big impact?
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I mean, oh, my gosh, there's so much within the world of special education. It's such a broad range.
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So within one class, you can have this huge range of needs, and it's so overwhelming,
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especially for brand new teachers, you know, or even people just new to special
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ed, where maybe I've been teaching before, but, you know, I haven't really had
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to worry about the IEPs and the data collection and all that extra stuff. Yeah.
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So my biggest thing, the thing I like to go to the most when I am working with
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people who are feeling overwhelmed is let's find the thing that's going to give
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us the most bang for our buck.
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We look for strategies that are going to be able to support multiple students
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in multiple situations and multiple contexts with, you know,
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minimal, not minimal amount of work, but, you know, in the long run, minimal amount of work.
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So it's front-loading some of that work, looking for things that can be more universally applied.
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So a lot of times we'll talk to teachers and come up with a strategy and say,
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hey, but, you know, this isn't just for this kid.
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You know, it will help this kid for sure, but is it going to hurt anyone in
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the class to have this available to them? And a lot of times we can come up
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with something that then allows us to lighten the load.
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So that's kind of my go-to thing is like, let's look for the thing that can
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help in the most areas so that we're not having to do each individual kind of
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accommodation or modification and things like that.
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Yeah, because so many of those strategies are good for all kids.
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I mean, so many of them are just really good teaching practices.
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Yeah, for sure. I would say with the just kind of it's become more apparent
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post-COVID, but there's a lot of strategies that are coming out that,
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you know, those of us in the world of special ed are looking at and say,
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hey, that's what we've been doing for years.
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So, yeah, good instruction is good instruction. You know, good strategies are good strategies.
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So let's find the ones that are going to help the most kids with the least amount of effort.
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Timeless. Good instruction is timeless. Yes.
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And I love how you highlighted of taking, reducing the load.
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So I always talk about what's one thing we could de-implement if we're adding this in.
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Is there something else that can kind of go away or maybe with this in place,
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will that help lighten the load somewhere else?
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Yeah, for sure. I mean, nobody has extra time. So if we're saying yes to this, what can we say no to?
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Or what can we say yes to that will allow some of these other things to kind of float away?
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Yeah, for sure. Can you give us some insight into how you help your teams work
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together effectively, especially when there's different perspectives on student
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needs? There's such a spectrum of needs.
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Yeah. And everyone has, you know, their own insight and their own opinions and things like that.
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So our big thing is we come back to the data.
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So let's look at the data. Data is impersonal.
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I say people can't be mad at a piece of paper. So, you know,
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if we've got the data that can show us the why behind why,
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maybe why something is happening or why a student is struggling in a certain
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area, if we have the data, we can look at that and that gives us a more neutral
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ground to start from as opposed to kind of,
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I heard we worked with somebody who called it IJK data that I just know.
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You know, I just know the student is struggling in this. I just know it's for
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this reason. I just know.
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And that can start to get really personal and we can start to have some conflicts
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there because we get really emotionally invested in that.
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So take it back to the data. And if we don't have the data, all right,
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let's talk about what do we need.
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And I find a lot of times when we take it back to that, we're able to find a more common ground.
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And, I mean, a lot of teaching and a lot of instructional strategies and things, we have to try stuff.
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So, you know, even having the teams say, hey, maybe we don't all agree that
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this is the best strategy, but it's a place to start.
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And it will give us some information, even if the information it gives us is,
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hey, this was a strategy that doesn't work.
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That's still information. So, but I really feel like bringing it back to the
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data helps to take some of that emotion out of it.
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Yeah, definitely capturing that third point perspective in black and white.
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The data doesn't lie. So what is the data telling us? And then how do we move forward?
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And what other data can we collect to know if something's working or isn't the right fit? Yeah, yeah.
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Okay, what does an ideal inclusive classroom look like for you,
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and how do you guide teachers toward creating that environment?
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I love this question. This is a great question. Because inclusion can look differently
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in a lot of different spectrums.
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A lot of times there's this idea that inclusion is kind of just pushing the
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kids with IEPs into the class, and they're just there to kind of check a box.
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But for me, really looking and pushing towards real true inclusion is looking
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at access and engagement.
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So do all of the students have access to being able to learn in this environment?
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Do they have access to the tools that they need? And are they engaged in learning?
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Knowing that the target for all students is not necessarily the same,
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but in that lesson, in that activity, all students should be engaged in learning in some way.
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So really, that's kind of what I start from when I'm working with our team or
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now being able to work more closely with some teachers and some leaders is looking at, you know,
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can we identify a way that all students can access the materials and the learning?
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And are all the students engaged in learning?
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Because it's not really inclusion if we have the students in there and they're just kind of there.
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So are they engaged? And then the other thing I really like to look at for inclusive
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settings is, you know, are the students really inclusive?
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Kind of understand. Do they understand and respect the differences of all of us?
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Are they aware of that? Do they celebrate those differences?
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Because I do feel like kids actually are pretty accepting when we start them
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pretty young, that they can be really accepting and really understanding of,
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you know, everybody learns different and everybody has different strengths and, you know, it's okay.
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And it's good. We like that about each other.
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And so being able to see kids have those kinds of conversations or seeing the
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moments when a student notices another student maybe is struggling and runs
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over to help or, you know, knows right away that this student might need help with a certain thing.
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So to me, it's really, it really comes down to that, you know,
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access, engagement, and then that interaction and respect between the students.
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Yeah, like that true integration in like the classroom community.
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Can I ask too really quick, is part of your work with leadership,
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is that around helping school leaders also recognize a truly inclusive classroom?
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Are you sort of working with them on what they're looking for in their evaluation process?
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Yeah, yeah. So that's definitely a component. Yeah.
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You know, as with all coaching cycles, it kind of takes the direction of whoever,
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you know, whatever their priorities are.
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But we do try to, you know, guide that. And especially with working with the administrators.
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So we coach not just within our own programs. We coach within our nine-member districts.
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So we go out into our districts and coach as well.
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And so some of that work from the administrative side has been working with the coordinators,
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the special education coordinators within those districts to talk about what
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inclusion really looks like and how do you build the capacity for that within your programming.
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Not that we don't want you to need us, but we want you to build your capacity
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so that you're serving and you feel confident serving those students to the best of your ability.
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That way, when you do call us in or you do refer a student, we know,
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hey, the student has gotten the best possible shot and they really do need some additional services.
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Okay, nice. Thank you. What's one memorable moment where you saw your coaching directly?
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I'm sure you have many of these, but where you saw your coaching directly make
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a difference for a teacher and their student?
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Yeah, that's that's tough because, you know, there are there are a lot and especially
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coming kind of from that administrative viewpoint.
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Where I see a little bit of an outsider perspective sometimes.
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But there is one that particularly, it really stood out for me.
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So it was in our second year of our coaching team.
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And we had gone through lots of bumps and resistance the first year where we
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had really kind of figured out our approach and how we really needed to,
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as Amy always says, build our coalition of the willing and really looking at that.
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And we had this was not I was not personally coaching the person,
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but we had someone on our team coaching a teacher who was a veteran teacher.
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I mean, 30 plus years in special education and had volunteered for a coaching cycle.
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But we're like, oh, I don't know if this is going to be, you know.
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I don't know how this is going to go. And it turned out at the end that she,
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we actually had her make a video because she said this was like a turning point
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in my classroom this year.
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She said, yeah, I was, I'm a veteran teacher, but I was struggling.
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I had a whole set of kids that I hadn't worked with this population before.
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And she just talked about how working with somebody and having that thought
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partner to bounce ideas off of, just changed her whole perspective on coaching.
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And then she looked at her class and was like, no, I can do this.
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I can work with the kids that were a little bit intimidating for her because
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she hadn't been in that population in her long career.
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So that's really one of my favorite ones.
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Just because it just shows the power of coaching and how when you kind of go
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in with that open mindset and really not going and saying,
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I have to, you know, have all the answers or tell what to do or anything like
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that, how we can work together.
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And it really benefited the students. We saw the data just reflected that.
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And she looked at that and said, yeah, that's exactly it. The coaching had a
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big impact on this data and on these students.
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So it was really kind of amazing to see.
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And truly at any point in your career, like a 30-year veteran, that's incredible.
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Yeah. Yeah. It was great to be able to show, and that was, again,
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part of us building our coalition of the willing, to be able to show that coaching
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is not just for brand new teachers.
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It's not just for people who are, you know, having a really hard time.
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Anybody can benefit from coaching. and it spoke very loudly within the program
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that she worked because she's very respected.
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She's been there a very long time and people said, hey, if she's open to it,
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then it must be a pretty good thing.
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What a beautiful evidence of collective efficacy. Yes.
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You can partner together and make amazing things happen and then how to bring
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other people on board. Yeah. Yeah, it was great.
00:17:56.920 --> 00:18:00.000
Well, we're going to move into the rapid fire portion of the podcast.
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So in about 60 seconds or less, there's no big clock counting us down.
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What's one strategy every coach should have in their back pocket?
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My favorite strategy in almost any situation is use of visuals,
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of visual supports, primarily visual schedule.
00:18:19.304 --> 00:18:22.724
We get a lot, a lot of times we're called in to look at classroom management
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behaviors and things like that. It's the first thing we say is, where's your schedule?
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How do kids know what they're supposed to be doing and what they're going to do next?
00:18:29.724 --> 00:18:33.464
So that's my number one go-to strategy. I love that.
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Is your visual schedule up in the front of that room where kids can access it? Yep.
00:18:39.044 --> 00:18:42.644
If you had 60 seconds with a new teacher, what's one thing you'd tell them?
00:18:43.864 --> 00:18:48.044
I think the first thing I would tell them is, you know that feeling that you
00:18:48.044 --> 00:18:50.444
don't know what you're doing? That's normal.
00:18:52.084 --> 00:18:55.004
That's normal, especially in the first few years, but you're going to feel it
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sometimes all throughout your whole career.
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And to not be afraid to reach out for help.
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As an administrator, I say all the time that asking for help,
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I view that as one of the highest levels of strength because you recognize where
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you need some assistance and you go for it.
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So that's why I tell people, I'm like, hey, sometimes you're going to feel like
00:19:14.784 --> 00:19:17.384
you don't know what you're doing. But guess what? Somebody around here could help.
00:19:18.184 --> 00:19:22.584
So just ask. Yeah, you don't have to have all the answers, especially that first year.
00:19:23.044 --> 00:19:27.964
Yeah, nobody does. You know, even 25, 30 years in, we still need help every now and then.
00:19:28.864 --> 00:19:32.104
Exactly. Where can we learn more from you and with you?
00:19:33.144 --> 00:19:38.504
Well, so primarily it would be on our cooperative website is eisencoop,
00:19:38.504 --> 00:19:41.164
E-I-S-E-N-C-O-O-P.org.
00:19:41.624 --> 00:19:47.304
My email is jdelosantos at eisencoop.org. I'm not super into social media,
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but I am starting some different ventures where I will be posting more coaching related things.
00:19:52.304 --> 00:19:54.784
So you can find me on LinkedIn, Instagram, Facebook.
00:19:55.104 --> 00:19:57.124
Just search my name and I'll pop up.
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Awesome. Well, we really appreciate your time and having you join us on C3.
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Thank you so much. It was a pleasure to be here. Thank you, Joy.
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We appreciate Joy so much for joining us and sharing her passion for special
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education, coaching, and inclusion.
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What does inclusion look like in your school? How might you support teachers
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in developing an inclusive environment?
00:20:19.680 --> 00:20:22.940
Thanks for listening to C3 and be sure to follow us on social media.