Danna Walker (she/her): Hello there and welcome, For everyone listening, this is Danna Walker. And I'm so delighted, so excited to have Zafir join me on this episode of Built By Us. And we are connected in terms of Zafir and the practice and studio that he's co-founded with others. And I'm really looking forward to having a conversation about what you do, why you do it. all of that kind of thing. But Zafir if I could start with the first question, tell us a little bit about you and what your journey has been to architecture and advocacy.
Zafir Ameen: Thank you so much. I firstly, thank you very much for having me here. It's such a pleasure to be back and connected with Built By Us. My journey, I guess, started maybe somewhat, let's say, conventionally. was very interested in art, I was very interested in making things and problem solving. And I was like, let's say gently pushed into maybe architecture being a really useful career path because of all the things that I guess I was really aligned to. And so I guess when I finished school, I applied for architecture school and I went to do my undergraduate at Manchester, which I loved, spent a few years up north. And then I guess, it was pretty straightforward afterwards. I went to work for practice for a couple of years. And I think maybe that was maybe the point that it maybe took a little bit of a turn is because after I went into practice, I just really enjoyed, I guess, working with people and doing stuff on the ground that I was a bit nervous about returning to Masters again. So when I did my part two, I was a little bit. conscious that I wanted to do something that was a bit more grounded maybe than like a conventional masters. So I went and studied actually at the LSA, the London School of Architecture, where I did a hybrid masters and where you work part time as well. So that was really rewarding, but I think then it brought up maybe a different challenge where I felt like I was maybe a bit disconnected from the kind of social projects that I'd kind of grown to like love. feel like a lot of architectural education, know, teaches you really strong. like social principles and a very like strong ethos. But I felt like then when I would spend my days working in practice, it wasn't quite the same. And I feel like there's a bit of a disconnect between the architectural education I was experiencing and then the kind of very live architecture that I was delivering. And so I think that was the moment I think when I was studying my masters, was like, this isn't maybe quite compatible with each other, the education and the practice. so I started to look elsewhere and actually that's how I ended up kind of in the charity sector and doing advocacy and so I currently work for Open City, the architecture charity, but at the same time I also wanted to kind of hone my design skills and so with some of my fellow colleagues from Manchester we co-founded a non-profit so that we can kind of do the community-based work that I guess we'd always dreamed of doing.
Danna Walker (she/her): Fantastic. And that's so interesting what you said about the disconnect between training and practice and the ways in which, you know, university kind of opens you up, both in terms of thinking about things from a social justice perspective, a design perspective, the kind of history of architecture, you get all of that. And then when you go into practice, depending on the type of practice that you go into, it can feel like a bit of a culture shock. But in your experience, you actually took that and made something with it along with people who you studied with, I guess, or who you'd worked with previously. So tell me a little bit about that. First of all, why the name? when you look at what you're doing and how you describe it. It's so interesting. It talks about humanitarian design. It talks about advocacy and being an advocate, activist. Tell me what that means to you and why that became part of the way that you want to work, ethos for your studio.
Zafir Ameen: Very good question. think a lot of it, I guess, came from, like, guess a shared frustration. I think that's what brought a lot of our, like, group together was, yeah, we kind of... came at it from different perspectives. We all come from different backgrounds, a lot of different cities, but we all kind of had the same feeling. I think that's what we've realized. I was talking about some of the frustrations I had in London, because that's where I am based and where I was working. And I feel like it's very, I don't know, very capitalist, very money-orientated architecture is serving maximum efficiency. It's just to make someone else richer and to make more money. And I was having this discussion with some of my friends and they were like, well, it's actually not that different in. Italy or in Ecuador. it's like, you know, it's like the same story, different context. And I think it was an interesting conversation about, wow, it's not actually geographically specific anymore. It's just like the direction maybe the industry is taking or the place for architects at the moment is, you know, what's the maximum amount of, you know, floor area you can get out of this like tiny plot. it, guess, triggered something in us that like it should be something more. That's not why any of us got into architecture. It was almost... out of like a problem solving a social good, was to give people, I guess, the basic right of having a house and having basic services, but it seems to have evolved something beyond that. And I guess to answer your one of your questions, yeah, diferente is Spanish. So it's like actually from a preposition. So it's like almost two words, de and frente. And it's to tackle something head on or to face and to, I guess, to face the challenges. So we take a very literal stance on that. that, guess, leans into the second. part of your question about like why activism and why such strong advocates and I think that's what we need to be. I think we have to be quite honest and quite transparent with our stance that we stand with and for people that are at the margins, people that maybe don't. ordinarily have a voice. think a lot of us come from, like I said, quite a wide range of backgrounds. And I think a lot of us feel that privilege a little bit that like we are in a position where we can talk about this kind of stuff that we can, know, critique and challenge some of the behaviors that maybe we don't like, but that's a luxury that not everyone has. And so we kind of see that as a platform for other people to do that kind of work. And that's, yeah, I guess that's how we kind of feel like now we're in an interesting space where we kind of sit somewhere beyond architecture. We're doing more engagement, more education. And I think it's all connected, but a little bit broader maybe than what we had first envisioned.
Danna Walker (she/her): That sounds amazing. And I love what you said about it being even broader than what you envisioned. The voice for the marginalised. I think, you know, I studied architecture many years ago, decades ago, feels like a thousand years ago now. But I can remember so many people having those similar thoughts. But I think many of them, many of the people that I studied with went into practice and just went, OK, that seems to be how it is. perhaps I can have this kind of parallel practice or studio or I can go into a different area of architecture, maybe writing or teaching or something like that. But you, as you say, Defrente head on with a group of friends decided that you were going to go down this pathway. And it's made me curious in terms of how do you find the people that you work with? Do they find you? Do you find them? Is it some other kind of way of working in terms of how you find people who maybe align with the values that you have.
Zafir Ameen: Another great question. think we started, I guess, as like a core group of people that studied together. So that was, guess, the original, like, co-founders and people that have been part of our studio for a long time are all. ex Manchester people that were in our year group together and had that shared frustration. But then it's kind of, taken its own legs and run with it. We've had people that have showed interest in the things that we do, or we've also contacted other people. Maybe we've met them in a social setting or in a professional setting and realised it's a really useful kind of skill and angle that we don't currently have. I think that's actually why I talked about us growing kind of beyond architecture. I think a lot of that. was actually quite organic because I think we expected a lot of the early stuff, actually lot of stuff that we've done with you and we've started the mentoring program was very architecture vocab and very architecture and design. And since then, you know, we had somebody join us who's a landscape architect. We have an anthropologist, have like graphic. It's like it suddenly becomes something even beyond architecture, like the frustration that I described, which I guess a lot of us thought was very architecture or even built environment specific actually resonates with a surprisingly large group of people. I think at the moment we've probably got, I think about 11, 12 members so far. There's definitely lots more people that are interested. I think we might have hit like a critical mass in terms of what we can currently manage and do. But I think what's really exciting is that everybody comes from a really different background. guess mine is more specifically education, I guess. There's people that have different niches as I said, of built environment, but also now anthropology and beyond and like social sciences, which is even more exciting, I think.
Danna Walker (she/her): That is super exciting. It's not often that you hear about practices that as part of the core team would have anthropologists and other specialists within the group. Does that create challenges because many practices will be a kind of single, pretty much a single specialism with some creative support rather than having people coming from completely different working cultures, different perspectives, different agendas or do you find it actually quite enriching to have that mix?
Zafir Ameen: I think it's definitely both. It's definitely really refreshing to have someone else's perspective. We have it a lot when we, for example, like are writing funding applications or I guess writing, I think is when it comes out the most is like, we will use, you know, very technocratic classic architecture vocab. And then somebody will be like, what is that? Like, what is that? Like, why are we talking about this in this way? And it's like, huh, yeah, that is really weird. Why are we doing that? And I think it's like, it's a really good, I think a mirror that's held up to us of like, Why do we do certain things? In some ways it does make it difficult because things obviously take a bit longer, but I don't think that's a bad thing. I think it's good that we think about how we use our words. I think funding applications is the main one. I think we've learned a lot and it's evolved to be something that was very architect, client language and has now become a bit more like human cultural sector, more in keeping with what... other, let's say, adjacent sectors do. So yeah, it's been it's been a really interesting learning curve. And even like, guess, down to our projects, it's really useful to get that out the perspective to see what is happening. mean, architecture is a very, you know, close minded group. Sometimes you see the same people always doing the same type of thing. And so it is nice to get a bit of perspective, I think, from others.
Danna Walker (she/her): Wonderful. that's such a really interesting point about language, because I think, you know, the start or one of the arms of exclusion is language. You know, if you are speaking to people who haven't studied architecture in the voice of an architect, they will spend a lot of time going, I'm not quite sure what that means. And that can even be within the built environment. I think there is a kind of language. structure that architects can use, which just in terms of clarity for people, that it can be really confusing. So it's interesting that you were able to see that from a different perspective. And has that also impacted the way that you design or the way that you approach design? If you're changing the language and the language structures, you're working with other people. Does that mean in terms of how you think about design? Does it? make a sort of shift there.
Zafir Ameen: Yeah, I think that's why I think, I guess like the projects and the nature of what we're doing has also shifted quite a lot. think when we were starting out, I guess it's like a graph you probably draw in terms of like time and like the nature of our projects. Cause I think they started off being very architectural as you would maybe imagine from an architecture studio. But I guess as of late, a lot of them have been. education, cultural outreach, and think just the way that we work has changed quite a lot. we, yeah, as I said, started off with very, let's say, conventional architecture projects. We would try and bring in landscape, try and bring in some of the other, let's say, specialisms, like, on top. But now I feel like it's almost gone the other way. Like now we're trying to, you we've, we were part of the London Festival of Architecture recently, which was great. And we did like a talk series, which was more outreach. Someone in our team as part of her master's, Camilla, she developed a game, like a participatory game. And so we actually used that as part of the LFA as well to like engage people in different ways. So it's still under the umbrella of architecture, but I think it's very different to how we maybe expected to work or how we've been trained to work, which is the design of buildings. It's now more like the consultation of people so that they are involved in the making of buildings. And I think it's an interesting place to be between those two. I think that hopefully the future is connecting those a little bit more and being able to take some of the advocacy work that we've been doing recently and trying to actually
Danna Walker (she/her): Yep.
Zafir Ameen: pair it with the delivery of a built project.
Danna Walker (she/her): Yeah, absolutely. And leading on from that, it'd be really interesting to hear about a project that you've worked on. I believe it's the Union Santa Fe project. So it'd be great to hear about how some of these things came together. So we talked about exploring a much larger sort of tool set in terms of how you approach those conversations and articulate. ideas like community and identity and space in a kind of co-production of buildings, which is just so exciting. It'd be interesting, I think, to hear how that kind of worked on the ground and was there any particular thing that you took from that process?
Zafir Ameen: Yeah, I think. Union Santa Fe is like the perfect project to talk about because it was the one that actually started our studio as well. So it's like it's interwoven into like who we are. So I guess for context, Union Santa Fe is a small community in Lima, Peru. It's like I guess an informal settlement as people would describe it. So they're very low income backgrounds. And when we were actually students actually still in Manchester, we were working with an NGO, a local NGO that was based there called Medlife and they're a medical medical NGO and they do lots of work, know, upskilling people in healthcare and hygiene and, you know, dental and how they, you know, teach people, you know, everything from like how to brush their teeth properly to how to like check for certain illnesses and diseases. And they do some amazing work. But they're a medical NGO and they had, really have much architectural expertise. And so they had like volunteer programs where, you know, people would go and... help out but again in a kind of medical capacity so doctors and dentists would go but they didn't really have a built environment background and so we were in quite a unique slightly strange position as architecture students because we could like help off maybe some light consultancy from afar but we felt like we couldn't really give as much as we want to and that was actually I guess the project that we was has been in the background for quite a while. that I guess foregrounded our studio and was like, well, actually we can make a real impact and we can do something. And it's what really did bring our group of friends together. Like most of our
Danna Walker (she/her): Yeah.
Zafir Ameen: group were formed from that project. moving forward, I guess what's exciting is that we've been asked to do a lot of different work. And we had some funding recently from ACAN to do material research. So we were looking at trying to develop. an open access housing system for this community because that's one of the biggest challenges. You kind of want to embrace that, you know, being self-built is part of the nature and part of the, you know, the power and agency that they have. It's just where they live is not currently safe or sustainable. So how can we create something which is, you know, does tick those boxes? And so we got, we were very lucky to get a small grant from ACAN where we were developing material research. So we were looking at sustainable cladding panels that could be used basically as sips. that the community could then build their own home so we would design the system, hand it directly to them and then it would be open access for them to use but at least would be a little bit safer than what they have at the moment. So it's a really exciting
Danna Walker (she/her): Wow, that's fantastic.
Zafir Ameen: project.
Danna Walker (she/her): Yeah, yeah, that sounds amazing. And yes, we were picking up on language. I'm just going to explain a couple of acronyms for people who may be listening from outside the UK and not sort of link all these things together. So ACAN is Architecture Climate Action Network. Is that right? I think I've got that right. Yes.
Zafir Ameen: Yes, exactly. This is me falling into my own trap. Yes, exactly.
Danna Walker (she/her): No worries, we do it all the time. The amount of acronyms they use in any conversation is honestly, I have to kind of put myself to task as well. And LSA, which was mentioned earlier in terms of your education, the London School of Architecture, which took on a very different kind of approach than the kind of traditional just university, and almost kind of went back in time to more of a kind of apprenticeship approach before apprenticeships kind of came back as. a really good way to train the next generation of architects. And I think you said SIPs as well. And then you said systems. Structurally instead of... Wow. Yeah.
Zafir Ameen: Yes, structurally insulated panels. Yes, structurally insulated panels is the system that we're working with. guess that, to answer some of the other parts of your question, guess is how we're working together. I guess that's another example of why we're kind of moving beyond the architecture and doing more of the engagement, because as I mentioned, this community live within an informal settlement and they're forced to build with what they have. And lot of that is concrete construction and very, you know, very thick, heavy, not the most sustainable types of building. it's actually a lot of the work, an unexpected challenge that we had with this project was actually changing a cultural mindset because a lot of Latin America looks to North America as being the ideal. And so for this community, they're like, well, we're using concrete. is, you know, that's what we're supposed to be doing, right? That's what that's the mark of a good modern home because that's what they're being exposed to. And so actually there's a lot of work that we're beyond the architecture, which is more changing a mindset that actually that's not maybe the best solution. There's more sustainable, better ways of doing this kind of work. And so what we're currently facing is more of an engagement challenge of like, how can we try and teach and show better examples of good architecture? And so we've recently tried to move from that kind of project that we did. with research and material testing to more like prototypes to show the community like, look, this works. This can be a really exciting thing that you can be part of, be participatory, you can help build it, and it will look far better than anything that a concrete block could do for you. So I'm hoping it will link up to themes we talking about earlier, like trying to get advocacy and participation, but also hopefully high quality architecture.
Danna Walker (she/her): Absolutely, and you've hit on something I think is really important, which is the education piece. People's general understanding of building is actually pretty good, but it can be so much affected by, well, this is what I've always seen, so that must be the right way. So therefore, if you're proposing an alternative, people will be maybe curious as to whether you have the ability or whether they're being told something which is incorrect. How would you say in terms of the education strand? How have you found that, you know, having those conversations, as you say, you've moved into prototyping perhaps as part of that. But yeah, tell me a little bit more about the education piece.
Zafir Ameen: Yeah, we found it to be really interesting. I think it's a bit that we didn't really expect to enjoy as much as maybe we have. I guess, yeah, again, we really thought architecture was going to be the sole engine of our studio and the other things would maybe be extra. But we've really loved, I think, all of the work that we've done. I think it's really interesting to just hear from people. As I said, I think it really does highlight how much, you know... the vocab and the time that you spend with other architects and designers sometimes is very different to what the outside world thinks. And people have amazing ideas. I mentioned the workshop we did for the London Festival of Architecture as well. And we asked people about the thoughts they had on their local area. And again, they just have such incredible ideas. They're the lived local experts. There's a weird power dynamic that usually happens with architecture, where the architect is the person that imposes the idea. I think it's extra dangerous in a humanitarian setting. And when we do of best to never use the word international development because I feel it's problematic on many levels that one organisation swoops in and does this kind of work, know, almost
Danna Walker (she/her): Yeah.
Zafir Ameen: like saviourism of we're going to come and impose.
Danna Walker (she/her): Mm.
Zafir Ameen: So we try our best to not to literally even just avoid the word, even though it's maybe traditionally what you would describe our studio as, I don't think it's fair to the people that live there that another, know, people that don't live there are coming in and taking credit or doing this type of work. So it's a tricky line, I think, but hopefully doing our best.
Danna Walker (she/her): Yeah, and I couldn't agree more, actually. I think the idea that's very much linked to, in my opinion, how architects are prepared for the role of architect is to see ourselves as the expert in everything or to try to be the expert in everything. But when you're going into communities, wherever they are in the world, the people who have experienced those spaces, those places, the people who have noticed where there are gaps or needs or challenges that perhaps haven't been picked up by institutions more often than not, can be invaluable. And it's always surprised me when engagement or what used to be called consultation is seen as a kind of little add-on, a moment which doesn't necessarily capture or manifest in the end. product, if we can use the word product. And I think when you then take that on an international scale, what you can often get are these sort of cross, cross concepts around what we mean by professional, what we mean by, you know, indigenous versus global, you know, there's all sorts of other kind of connotations. And I think you're kind of hinting at
Zafir Ameen: Mm.
Danna Walker (she/her): that. in terms of something you said about the language that you use as well.
Zafir Ameen: I think even in a local context, it's maybe even more surprising because you'd expect it to be bit more progressive. mean, we were looking at, for example, Oxford Street, and I'm sure lots of people maybe have read and heard about the changes that are coming in and pedestrianisation, and there has been consultations. And we,
Danna Walker (she/her): Yeah.
Zafir Ameen: out of curiosity, were looking at, there was one. Let's see what's done already and see
Danna Walker (she/her): Yeah.
Zafir Ameen: who was engaged. And you look at the statistics of people that were engaged, it's, as you can maybe imagine, a certain demographic of one gender that was asked most of the questions and it's like wow,
Danna Walker (she/her): Right.
Zafir Ameen: Oxford Street in particular attracts quite a lot of people. It's like people that live in London describe it as a tourist trap, which means there's a huge amount of other ethnicities and people that visit it, but if there's only one particular user that's asked or maybe there's only one particular person that puts themselves forward for these types of projects who... actually does or doesn't get a say. And I think that was very clear because the workshop we did was looking at Oxford Street, getting young people to actually engage and talk about the work, like what they think the area should do to them. And there was one group that really stood out to us because it was a group of like young girls, like school age girls that like, that was 16. And the first thing they said was about safety. They were like, they went immediately to what we said, what was the first thing you had put here? And I and their first suggestion was to put like police station security. And it was like, wow, this is like, you know, straight away, the 16 year old was the first thing they thought of a security. And we just know that that's not going to be the response that you would get from, you know, a typical, maybe adult or typical demographic and person is not going to be that maybe safety aspect. And so as you said, there really is an impressive richness to asking people that aren't usually asked these questions and seeing what
Danna Walker (she/her): Yeah.
Zafir Ameen: they do and don't want.
Danna Walker (she/her): Yeah, never assume. Absolutely. And that's so interesting. I was not expecting you to say that when even as you were telling the stories, trying to think about what could they have asked for? Security, police stations? No, I did not have that on my list at all. So these conversations become so pertinent, so important and invaluable for planners and designers. And one of the things that I'm often thinking about because of our focus on inclusion and your focus on social justice and advocacy, I'd really be interested to hear what you think. you know, as we're developing particularly city spaces, neighbourhoods, places, structures, if you could add something to make a city, place or space more inclusive, it can be anything you like. I'm really interested to hear what you would add if you could do anything you like. And it could be a real place or it could be much more about a particular type of space building, et cetera.
Zafir Ameen: I should, we should, should pattern this before I say it, because we like, discussed this for a potential competition and didn't quite like manifest, but I hope one day we'll be able to do it. But it was something so simple as a table in a public space and getting people to come together. I think there's something really powerful. There's lots going on in the UK at the moment. There's lots of hate and, you know, abuse of all sides. And I think there's a tolerance for different people, I think is...
Danna Walker (she/her): Yeah.
Zafir Ameen: maybe lower than it has been previously, unfortunately. I think part of that is just because people don't spend time together or as much time as they should. think people don't, I mean, part of what we're discussing right now with consultation is like just presence, just listening. Like it's like the amount of positive feedback we receive just because somebody listened to them. And I see it all the time in
Danna Walker (she/her): Yeah.
Zafir Ameen: my day job with OpenCity and working with young people. Nobody ever asks, like nobody ever asks a young person what they want and what they care, even just sitting down and asking. It's actually a funny, a funny change. see when I get, when you get to teaching university and you ask like first year students, like, what do you think or what do you want? And they
Danna Walker (she/her): Yeah.
Zafir Ameen: look at you blankly and it's not because they don't know it's because they've never been asked. Like school doesn't teach you to have an opinion. teaches you to buy heart something. And when you ask someone, what do you think of even something so simple as like, what do you think of this building? it will take them 20 minutes to give you something because they're not trained to think like that. Nobody's like listened to that idea. So in a very roundabout way, think like just having something that gets you there, that gets people together in a room. I mean, there's a really beautiful thing in Spanish culture called the sobremesa. And it's when it's like after you finish your meal, you stay at the table and you keep chatting for hours. Like my partner is Argentine and like without fail, it happens all the time. Like you finish lunch or dinner. and it's maybe like, one o'clock, but you'll be at the table till four because you're catching up. You're talking about what's happened. You like connecting with people. It's like more important than the food is like the staying around of that table. And so we did, yeah, there was like a potential project where we wanted to do something like that, where we just wanted people to have an excuse to sit together, to not do anything, maybe productive, but just chat and like be human with another person. think tech is another thing that's like massively changing the way we live and like for good and for bad but I think we are yeah we're definitely losing that and so I I would advocate for something as simple as just a massive long table where people can just have food catch up and just yeah be more human would be my final thoughts.
Danna Walker (she/her): Yeah. that's amazing. I love the idea. And it's reminded me of an image that I've seen. I'm not quite sure what celebration it was, but I think it was in mainland Europe, maybe in Italy, where in the neighborhood, they'd taken lots of tables and put them out in the street and occupied the whole street with these tables and all of the neighbors. And maybe they were all bringing different dishes and, you know, whatever they could contribute. it was about a shared meal. And it was about having that time to connect without there having to be like, oh, can I borrow something or your cat is in my garden or whatever it is, was just one of a kind of coming together. And the thing that you talked about is also made me think about social cohesion, but also the ways in which it can support wellness more generally. You know, that moment to de-stress, you've eaten your meal. and maybe a conversation stuff, but you're not rushing back to a desk or to your next bit on your to do list, you're actually taking the time to listen and to speak as a way also of
Zafir Ameen: Hmm.
Danna Walker (she/her): kind of de-stressing one of the things that we've seen, I think, particularly highlighted in terms of wellness, things around loneliness, and you're absolutely right, division and lack of social cohesion. So I love this idea. I really hope that it...
Zafir Ameen: I think it's, think it's... I think it's just, it's just like some of these things like you talk about, feel like people wouldn't imagine them as being a spatial problem, but I think in that is the issue, like we're talking about putting tables outside in space. partly because there is in a space like that already that exists. We were at an event actually last Monday where there's one of the celebration events for one of our programs. And we asked a similar question to young people, to these primary school students, what do you want? And one of them said something like, I just want a place to do things after school, to do activities. And the person I was hosting gave a very witty response of, that was called the Youth Center and we lost them a long time ago. And it's a very in... in like all of these comments and in the things that people want, there is a real architectural either solution or mitigation. Like in the same example, there's the young girls who wanted like safety. There's something that space isn't giving them or is like taking away. That means you maybe need something else to stop like their solution of maybe putting two massive police stations on either end of Oxford street maybe isn't the answer, but in
Danna Walker (she/her): Yeah.
Zafir Ameen: there is something. And I think with young people in particular, like there's There are lots of hints as to the ideas. It just needs to be a bit more developed. Like lots of them talk about transport or movement in more abstract ways. Like they would rather have slides or they'd rather have, I don't know, waterfalls down buildings, they seem far-fetched. But somewhere deep down, is like there is something real that they're highlighting. And I think we need to listen a bit more to those.
Danna Walker (she/her): Yeah, I think so. Yeah. And that's, and that's so interesting, because there's a kind of, there's something quite interesting about the desire for something that feels real and tangible and has limits, you know, someone who is reminding you that there are laws and there are things that you can't do, but at the same time that interest in playfulness, you know, if I could get from here to here on a slide, I'd rather do that. because actually sitting on the bus isn't that interesting or sitting on the tube isn't that interesting. And at the same time, know, most of the things I see on social media where people are on the tube, they've kind of taken speakers down there and having a bit of a party and completely changing the nature of that space. are now dancing or whatever it is that they might be doing. So I think that that's really interesting. the sort of almost tug between something that feels like it has more limits and something that feels so much freer, but the trying to get that balance
Zafir Ameen: Mm.
Danna Walker (she/her): right. Yeah.
Zafir Ameen: I think the I mean, I know we keep talking about Oxford Street specifically, but I think it's a good example because lots of those lessons came from COVID, like when COVID shut down everything and cities were scrambling to be like, how do we get people to use public space again? And lots of them did, you know, like eat out to help out, but lots of restaurants suddenly got unlimited licenses to eat outside or to like increase their terror space. And suddenly they were like booming businesses that like, you know, were thought were on the brinks of collapse because nobody wanted to eat outside. suddenly realized like, I guess, like lots of Europe, as you said, in Italy have been doing for decades or centuries. We can enjoy space in different ways. And suddenly everybody came back because there was a space to hang out with your friends, young people, think. I don't think I've ever seen as many young people as like that window when like COVID was getting a bit better and people were starting to introduce things outdoors. Like every young person was in a park, in a public space because the city was more accessible. And I think we need to get back to that kind of thinking again before we lose it and to go back to everything the way it was.
Danna Walker (she/her): Absolutely. And I think this, we just happen to be speaking on one of the many hottest record breaking days of the year. And the way people are using space because of changes in temperature, you know, perhaps, you know, there's been lots of discussion about, you know, as a country we've designed for the climate of the past, which is we need to conserve heat. And now what we're facing is going to be in all likelihood a mixture of both that we'll have. much more extreme cold and extreme heat, but that affects behaviour because of design. really do think that connection between design, behaviours, expectations, society, cohesion is incredibly important. And the need for space, which is not branded space, that's what I'm going to call it, I think. I think there's an expectation that young people should go to a fast food place and have there and then you can, it's like, no, why does it always have to be a branded or commercialized space? Going back to your initial comments about the ways in which capitalism also has an effect. You know, we need spaces that whether you have some money or you don't, you can still be part of something. It isn't a barrier. to being connected to your neighbours, to your neighbourhood, that kind of thing.
Zafir Ameen: like unproductive free space. you know, it's
Danna Walker (she/her): Yeah.
Zafir Ameen: like, even as you say, I think there are connotations of being like lazy or not being like, you know, useful. I think, I think we need more of I think we're so regimented and so fixed in our way. And
Danna Walker (she/her): Yeah.
Zafir Ameen: I guess I come back to like, you know, the frustrations we had of architecture is like this mad scramble of like space, like how can we use every possible space, build on every single square meter to make someone else like money and Sometimes the answer is just, let's not build on that one tiny five square meter plot. Like,
Danna Walker (she/her): Yeah.
Zafir Ameen: let's leave it for someone to enjoy. Like, why can we not just have that as the response?
Danna Walker (she/her): Yeah, it's interesting because in agriculture they do that, don't they? It might only be for a period and we've certainly seen the kind of the meanwhile space or the pop-up kind of space where temporarily it might be productive but for some period of time it isn't. But in agriculture, yeah, you always leave some fields fallow, you know, because you want to make sure you're not taking, extracting too much from the soil. So you need a chance,
Zafir Ameen: Mm.
Danna Walker (she/her): an opportunity.
Zafir Ameen: I think another architectural buzzword is meanwhile spaces and that think is what we're almost talking about is where you have exactly something for a little bit that everyone can use. for. can't remember how many years it was supposed to be there for. And it was there for like almost triple its lifespan because it did something that didn't realize it suddenly brought people to this part of London Like it was definitely branded, but there was some flexibility in terms of, you know, where you could go, you could choose to eat in this one or that one. There was public space between the different units. And again, young people like realized it was a place they could gather and the popularity overtook its like role as a meanwhile space. And I think we, yeah, we need something else. We need like a more permanent version of that, but along the right lines, I think.
Danna Walker (she/her): Yeah, and I think because it adopted a very different architectural language, it allowed people from the local community to co-produce a space by operating their own unique places for food or shopping or whatever it is. So yeah, I think it's that kind of hybrid between, you know, having spaces which can adopt a different use. but also really co-producing with the community. That's what made it successful and exciting as well.
Zafir Ameen: I think that's the power of just involving people in the projects. there's a lot of, I mean, there's lots of work that's going into care and maintenance of projects. And I think the real secret lies in getting people to help build it. I think you would care less if somebody else, again, going back to what we were discussing about like, saviourism and getting people like coming in and doing something for you. Like I would care a lot less if somebody did that on your behalf, as opposed to if I had also helped build something. And that's, guess, part of the narrative that I think shouldn't be that hard, hopefully, to involve is to get people want to have a say and want to literally build things, use their hands. And I think there's something in that itself that would hopefully help increase the longevity of some of these works.
Danna Walker (she/her): Yeah, because suddenly you've got some connection beyond, well, I can't remember what it used to be, but I walked past the hoarding and now there's something else there. You if you've been involved, if you've been part of the conversation, if you physically in some way, shape or form contributed, it becomes your building. You know, you can't go for a walk or a journey with an architect without them pointing out that they're going, yeah, I worked on that or something like that. And that sense of pride that you have, if that's the right word. It stays with you forever to know that you've kind of contributed something or hopefully contributed something. So it'd be amazing if everyday people who are not necessarily bit environment specialists could also have that sense of ownership and empowerment through building.
Zafir Ameen: think that's why like I kept talking about the self-built nature of like what an informal settlement is. I think there's a lot to admire like I know that you know obviously they get a really bad reputation for the type of environment that it is but there's a lot I think to learn from the amount of pride that they take in building their own projects and their own work and lots of work that has gone on in that community in particular has been the creation of staircases because in this environment Lima for people that maybe don't know is very hilly. It's got a very like steep terrain. It's quite high, it's got quite strong altitude and particularly for these people from I guess more marginalised backgrounds, they're not going to have like prime flat real estate in the middle of the city. It's going to be really intense terrain, mountainous terrains in an arid desert landscape so it's quite brutal on all fronts. And so staircases become quite a diplomatic way of building things between people just like how does how do people access their own homes? And so part of what Medlife, this other organization has been doing lots for their community build is like building those together so that people in the communities build their own staircases. So it empowers them not only to have a role, but the maintenance of their place. They get to live better and they actually get to actively engage in the creation and adaptation of their current place.
Danna Walker (she/her): That sounds amazing. Staircases are not easy at the best of times, but in that kind of terrain. Wow, that sounds so cool.
Zafir Ameen: Yeah, they're definitely not the, by UK standards, probably not the safest things in the world. There's no handrails to be seen anywhere, but they get along. There's things that would definitely shock, I think, a UK architect. yeah, when it comes down to necessities, there are some things which let slip a little bit.
Danna Walker (she/her): as one of the original four co-founders, what do you think the biggest kind of lessons around leadership have you taken away from the role? What would you say to someone who is about to begin their journey as a leader?
Zafir Ameen: Don't do it alone. I think is the best like lesson I could give I think it is really useful like it's invaluable and To have other people to help you no matter what form that takes like some people will still start maybe a one-person Company, but I think the advice or the mentorship that you get from other people will make or break You know the things that you do, but if you are in a fortunate position to have other co-founders or other people I think it really It's just super fruitful to have other people's input and expertise. mean, like we discussed like different backgrounds and specialisms. I guess that's like one one take. But I think people's individual interests, especially recently, has been really interesting to involve. I think that's again part of the reason we've kind of branched out into other areas is because we're kind of following the path and the interest that certain people have. So we've, you know, are doing more research, more advocacy, but in the areas and locations of our teams. So what started out as being very Latin American in origin and in sight, we're now looking at, you know, supporting one of our team who's doing her master's in Greece and looking at mining and the impact of this town and space and how it's getting displaced by this massive mining corporation that's basically running over this town. and another member of our team is doing river activism in rural Ecuador. I think it's really enriching the angles that have come out of it and it's all just by supporting every single individual person and where they're going. So to come back to your question, think it's just finding great people to work with, whatever capacity that is, and just really empowering them to do and follow what they're interested in.
Danna Walker (she/her): Fantastic. Thank you. It's been so inspiring listening to you. I kind of wish that, you know, when I'd started or first graduated that, you know, I'd met someone like you, who kind of go, okay, can pop something and it will be global, will be this, that and the other. You know, everything you said is absolutely fascinating and it just piques more and more curiosity. I hope people that are listening to this will go and discover more. via your website and follow you on social to see some of the more exciting things that you've got coming up, including events in the UK and it sounds perhaps globally as well. I really appreciate you making time to join me on the podcast. Thank you so much.
Zafir Ameen: Thank you so much for having me. yeah, any, like I know it is, maybe we've, you know, romanticized it that I know it is really difficult, like starting a company and doing all of these things. if anybody ever has any questions, we're all super open. We are open to any collaborations from anyone, but equally, if you're in the position of thinking about it or starting a company or doing this kind of humanitarian work, like feel free to get in touch. think our email is very public on our website as well. And so you can reach out or message me personally. And yeah, we're always open for a chat.
Danna Walker (she/her): Fantastic. Thank you so much. I hope you have a great day.
Zafir Ameen: Thank you. Thank you so much for having me and us again.
Zafir Ameen: Thank you so much. I firstly, thank you very much for having me here. It's such a pleasure to be back and connected with Built By Us. My journey, I guess, started maybe somewhat, let's say, conventionally. was very interested in art, I was very interested in making things and problem solving. And I was like, let's say gently pushed into maybe architecture being a really useful career path because of all the things that I guess I was really aligned to. And so I guess when I finished school, I applied for architecture school and I went to do my undergraduate at Manchester, which I loved, spent a few years up north. And then I guess, it was pretty straightforward afterwards. I went to work for practice for a couple of years. And I think maybe that was maybe the point that it maybe took a little bit of a turn is because after I went into practice, I just really enjoyed, I guess, working with people and doing stuff on the ground that I was a bit nervous about returning to Masters again. So when I did my part two, I was a little bit. conscious that I wanted to do something that was a bit more grounded maybe than like a conventional masters. So I went and studied actually at the LSA, the London School of Architecture, where I did a hybrid masters and where you work part time as well. So that was really rewarding, but I think then it brought up maybe a different challenge where I felt like I was maybe a bit disconnected from the kind of social projects that I'd kind of grown to like love. feel like a lot of architectural education, know, teaches you really strong. like social principles and a very like strong ethos. But I felt like then when I would spend my days working in practice, it wasn't quite the same. And I feel like there's a bit of a disconnect between the architectural education I was experiencing and then the kind of very live architecture that I was delivering. And so I think that was the moment I think when I was studying my masters, was like, this isn't maybe quite compatible with each other, the education and the practice. so I started to look elsewhere and actually that's how I ended up kind of in the charity sector and doing advocacy and so I currently work for Open City, the architecture charity, but at the same time I also wanted to kind of hone my design skills and so with some of my fellow colleagues from Manchester we co-founded a non-profit so that we can kind of do the community-based work that I guess we'd always dreamed of doing.
Danna Walker (she/her): Fantastic. And that's so interesting what you said about the disconnect between training and practice and the ways in which, you know, university kind of opens you up, both in terms of thinking about things from a social justice perspective, a design perspective, the kind of history of architecture, you get all of that. And then when you go into practice, depending on the type of practice that you go into, it can feel like a bit of a culture shock. But in your experience, you actually took that and made something with it along with people who you studied with, I guess, or who you'd worked with previously. So tell me a little bit about that. First of all, why the name? when you look at what you're doing and how you describe it. It's so interesting. It talks about humanitarian design. It talks about advocacy and being an advocate, activist. Tell me what that means to you and why that became part of the way that you want to work, ethos for your studio.
Zafir Ameen: Very good question. think a lot of it, I guess, came from, like, guess a shared frustration. I think that's what brought a lot of our, like, group together was, yeah, we kind of... came at it from different perspectives. We all come from different backgrounds, a lot of different cities, but we all kind of had the same feeling. I think that's what we've realized. I was talking about some of the frustrations I had in London, because that's where I am based and where I was working. And I feel like it's very, I don't know, very capitalist, very money-orientated architecture is serving maximum efficiency. It's just to make someone else richer and to make more money. And I was having this discussion with some of my friends and they were like, well, it's actually not that different in. Italy or in Ecuador. it's like, you know, it's like the same story, different context. And I think it was an interesting conversation about, wow, it's not actually geographically specific anymore. It's just like the direction maybe the industry is taking or the place for architects at the moment is, you know, what's the maximum amount of, you know, floor area you can get out of this like tiny plot. it, guess, triggered something in us that like it should be something more. That's not why any of us got into architecture. It was almost... out of like a problem solving a social good, was to give people, I guess, the basic right of having a house and having basic services, but it seems to have evolved something beyond that. And I guess to answer your one of your questions, yeah, diferente is Spanish. So it's like actually from a preposition. So it's like almost two words, de and frente. And it's to tackle something head on or to face and to, I guess, to face the challenges. So we take a very literal stance on that. that, guess, leans into the second. part of your question about like why activism and why such strong advocates and I think that's what we need to be. I think we have to be quite honest and quite transparent with our stance that we stand with and for people that are at the margins, people that maybe don't. ordinarily have a voice. think a lot of us come from, like I said, quite a wide range of backgrounds. And I think a lot of us feel that privilege a little bit that like we are in a position where we can talk about this kind of stuff that we can, know, critique and challenge some of the behaviors that maybe we don't like, but that's a luxury that not everyone has. And so we kind of see that as a platform for other people to do that kind of work. And that's, yeah, I guess that's how we kind of feel like now we're in an interesting space where we kind of sit somewhere beyond architecture. We're doing more engagement, more education. And I think it's all connected, but a little bit broader maybe than what we had first envisioned.
Danna Walker (she/her): That sounds amazing. And I love what you said about it being even broader than what you envisioned. The voice for the marginalised. I think, you know, I studied architecture many years ago, decades ago, feels like a thousand years ago now. But I can remember so many people having those similar thoughts. But I think many of them, many of the people that I studied with went into practice and just went, OK, that seems to be how it is. perhaps I can have this kind of parallel practice or studio or I can go into a different area of architecture, maybe writing or teaching or something like that. But you, as you say, Defrente head on with a group of friends decided that you were going to go down this pathway. And it's made me curious in terms of how do you find the people that you work with? Do they find you? Do you find them? Is it some other kind of way of working in terms of how you find people who maybe align with the values that you have.
Zafir Ameen: Another great question. think we started, I guess, as like a core group of people that studied together. So that was, guess, the original, like, co-founders and people that have been part of our studio for a long time are all. ex Manchester people that were in our year group together and had that shared frustration. But then it's kind of, taken its own legs and run with it. We've had people that have showed interest in the things that we do, or we've also contacted other people. Maybe we've met them in a social setting or in a professional setting and realised it's a really useful kind of skill and angle that we don't currently have. I think that's actually why I talked about us growing kind of beyond architecture. I think a lot of that. was actually quite organic because I think we expected a lot of the early stuff, actually lot of stuff that we've done with you and we've started the mentoring program was very architecture vocab and very architecture and design. And since then, you know, we had somebody join us who's a landscape architect. We have an anthropologist, have like graphic. It's like it suddenly becomes something even beyond architecture, like the frustration that I described, which I guess a lot of us thought was very architecture or even built environment specific actually resonates with a surprisingly large group of people. I think at the moment we've probably got, I think about 11, 12 members so far. There's definitely lots more people that are interested. I think we might have hit like a critical mass in terms of what we can currently manage and do. But I think what's really exciting is that everybody comes from a really different background. guess mine is more specifically education, I guess. There's people that have different niches as I said, of built environment, but also now anthropology and beyond and like social sciences, which is even more exciting, I think.
Danna Walker (she/her): That is super exciting. It's not often that you hear about practices that as part of the core team would have anthropologists and other specialists within the group. Does that create challenges because many practices will be a kind of single, pretty much a single specialism with some creative support rather than having people coming from completely different working cultures, different perspectives, different agendas or do you find it actually quite enriching to have that mix?
Zafir Ameen: I think it's definitely both. It's definitely really refreshing to have someone else's perspective. We have it a lot when we, for example, like are writing funding applications or I guess writing, I think is when it comes out the most is like, we will use, you know, very technocratic classic architecture vocab. And then somebody will be like, what is that? Like, what is that? Like, why are we talking about this in this way? And it's like, huh, yeah, that is really weird. Why are we doing that? And I think it's like, it's a really good, I think a mirror that's held up to us of like, Why do we do certain things? In some ways it does make it difficult because things obviously take a bit longer, but I don't think that's a bad thing. I think it's good that we think about how we use our words. I think funding applications is the main one. I think we've learned a lot and it's evolved to be something that was very architect, client language and has now become a bit more like human cultural sector, more in keeping with what... other, let's say, adjacent sectors do. So yeah, it's been it's been a really interesting learning curve. And even like, guess, down to our projects, it's really useful to get that out the perspective to see what is happening. mean, architecture is a very, you know, close minded group. Sometimes you see the same people always doing the same type of thing. And so it is nice to get a bit of perspective, I think, from others.
Danna Walker (she/her): Wonderful. that's such a really interesting point about language, because I think, you know, the start or one of the arms of exclusion is language. You know, if you are speaking to people who haven't studied architecture in the voice of an architect, they will spend a lot of time going, I'm not quite sure what that means. And that can even be within the built environment. I think there is a kind of language. structure that architects can use, which just in terms of clarity for people, that it can be really confusing. So it's interesting that you were able to see that from a different perspective. And has that also impacted the way that you design or the way that you approach design? If you're changing the language and the language structures, you're working with other people. Does that mean in terms of how you think about design? Does it? make a sort of shift there.
Zafir Ameen: Yeah, I think that's why I think, I guess like the projects and the nature of what we're doing has also shifted quite a lot. think when we were starting out, I guess it's like a graph you probably draw in terms of like time and like the nature of our projects. Cause I think they started off being very architectural as you would maybe imagine from an architecture studio. But I guess as of late, a lot of them have been. education, cultural outreach, and think just the way that we work has changed quite a lot. we, yeah, as I said, started off with very, let's say, conventional architecture projects. We would try and bring in landscape, try and bring in some of the other, let's say, specialisms, like, on top. But now I feel like it's almost gone the other way. Like now we're trying to, you we've, we were part of the London Festival of Architecture recently, which was great. And we did like a talk series, which was more outreach. Someone in our team as part of her master's, Camilla, she developed a game, like a participatory game. And so we actually used that as part of the LFA as well to like engage people in different ways. So it's still under the umbrella of architecture, but I think it's very different to how we maybe expected to work or how we've been trained to work, which is the design of buildings. It's now more like the consultation of people so that they are involved in the making of buildings. And I think it's an interesting place to be between those two. I think that hopefully the future is connecting those a little bit more and being able to take some of the advocacy work that we've been doing recently and trying to actually
Danna Walker (she/her): Yep.
Zafir Ameen: pair it with the delivery of a built project.
Danna Walker (she/her): Yeah, absolutely. And leading on from that, it'd be really interesting to hear about a project that you've worked on. I believe it's the Union Santa Fe project. So it'd be great to hear about how some of these things came together. So we talked about exploring a much larger sort of tool set in terms of how you approach those conversations and articulate. ideas like community and identity and space in a kind of co-production of buildings, which is just so exciting. It'd be interesting, I think, to hear how that kind of worked on the ground and was there any particular thing that you took from that process?
Zafir Ameen: Yeah, I think. Union Santa Fe is like the perfect project to talk about because it was the one that actually started our studio as well. So it's like it's interwoven into like who we are. So I guess for context, Union Santa Fe is a small community in Lima, Peru. It's like I guess an informal settlement as people would describe it. So they're very low income backgrounds. And when we were actually students actually still in Manchester, we were working with an NGO, a local NGO that was based there called Medlife and they're a medical medical NGO and they do lots of work, know, upskilling people in healthcare and hygiene and, you know, dental and how they, you know, teach people, you know, everything from like how to brush their teeth properly to how to like check for certain illnesses and diseases. And they do some amazing work. But they're a medical NGO and they had, really have much architectural expertise. And so they had like volunteer programs where, you know, people would go and... help out but again in a kind of medical capacity so doctors and dentists would go but they didn't really have a built environment background and so we were in quite a unique slightly strange position as architecture students because we could like help off maybe some light consultancy from afar but we felt like we couldn't really give as much as we want to and that was actually I guess the project that we was has been in the background for quite a while. that I guess foregrounded our studio and was like, well, actually we can make a real impact and we can do something. And it's what really did bring our group of friends together. Like most of our
Danna Walker (she/her): Yeah.
Zafir Ameen: group were formed from that project. moving forward, I guess what's exciting is that we've been asked to do a lot of different work. And we had some funding recently from ACAN to do material research. So we were looking at trying to develop. an open access housing system for this community because that's one of the biggest challenges. You kind of want to embrace that, you know, being self-built is part of the nature and part of the, you know, the power and agency that they have. It's just where they live is not currently safe or sustainable. So how can we create something which is, you know, does tick those boxes? And so we got, we were very lucky to get a small grant from ACAN where we were developing material research. So we were looking at sustainable cladding panels that could be used basically as sips. that the community could then build their own home so we would design the system, hand it directly to them and then it would be open access for them to use but at least would be a little bit safer than what they have at the moment. So it's a really exciting
Danna Walker (she/her): Wow, that's fantastic.
Zafir Ameen: project.
Danna Walker (she/her): Yeah, yeah, that sounds amazing. And yes, we were picking up on language. I'm just going to explain a couple of acronyms for people who may be listening from outside the UK and not sort of link all these things together. So ACAN is Architecture Climate Action Network. Is that right? I think I've got that right. Yes.
Zafir Ameen: Yes, exactly. This is me falling into my own trap. Yes, exactly.
Danna Walker (she/her): No worries, we do it all the time. The amount of acronyms they use in any conversation is honestly, I have to kind of put myself to task as well. And LSA, which was mentioned earlier in terms of your education, the London School of Architecture, which took on a very different kind of approach than the kind of traditional just university, and almost kind of went back in time to more of a kind of apprenticeship approach before apprenticeships kind of came back as. a really good way to train the next generation of architects. And I think you said SIPs as well. And then you said systems. Structurally instead of... Wow. Yeah.
Zafir Ameen: Yes, structurally insulated panels. Yes, structurally insulated panels is the system that we're working with. guess that, to answer some of the other parts of your question, guess is how we're working together. I guess that's another example of why we're kind of moving beyond the architecture and doing more of the engagement, because as I mentioned, this community live within an informal settlement and they're forced to build with what they have. And lot of that is concrete construction and very, you know, very thick, heavy, not the most sustainable types of building. it's actually a lot of the work, an unexpected challenge that we had with this project was actually changing a cultural mindset because a lot of Latin America looks to North America as being the ideal. And so for this community, they're like, well, we're using concrete. is, you know, that's what we're supposed to be doing, right? That's what that's the mark of a good modern home because that's what they're being exposed to. And so actually there's a lot of work that we're beyond the architecture, which is more changing a mindset that actually that's not maybe the best solution. There's more sustainable, better ways of doing this kind of work. And so what we're currently facing is more of an engagement challenge of like, how can we try and teach and show better examples of good architecture? And so we've recently tried to move from that kind of project that we did. with research and material testing to more like prototypes to show the community like, look, this works. This can be a really exciting thing that you can be part of, be participatory, you can help build it, and it will look far better than anything that a concrete block could do for you. So I'm hoping it will link up to themes we talking about earlier, like trying to get advocacy and participation, but also hopefully high quality architecture.
Danna Walker (she/her): Absolutely, and you've hit on something I think is really important, which is the education piece. People's general understanding of building is actually pretty good, but it can be so much affected by, well, this is what I've always seen, so that must be the right way. So therefore, if you're proposing an alternative, people will be maybe curious as to whether you have the ability or whether they're being told something which is incorrect. How would you say in terms of the education strand? How have you found that, you know, having those conversations, as you say, you've moved into prototyping perhaps as part of that. But yeah, tell me a little bit more about the education piece.
Zafir Ameen: Yeah, we found it to be really interesting. I think it's a bit that we didn't really expect to enjoy as much as maybe we have. I guess, yeah, again, we really thought architecture was going to be the sole engine of our studio and the other things would maybe be extra. But we've really loved, I think, all of the work that we've done. I think it's really interesting to just hear from people. As I said, I think it really does highlight how much, you know... the vocab and the time that you spend with other architects and designers sometimes is very different to what the outside world thinks. And people have amazing ideas. I mentioned the workshop we did for the London Festival of Architecture as well. And we asked people about the thoughts they had on their local area. And again, they just have such incredible ideas. They're the lived local experts. There's a weird power dynamic that usually happens with architecture, where the architect is the person that imposes the idea. I think it's extra dangerous in a humanitarian setting. And when we do of best to never use the word international development because I feel it's problematic on many levels that one organisation swoops in and does this kind of work, know, almost
Danna Walker (she/her): Yeah.
Zafir Ameen: like saviourism of we're going to come and impose.
Danna Walker (she/her): Mm.
Zafir Ameen: So we try our best to not to literally even just avoid the word, even though it's maybe traditionally what you would describe our studio as, I don't think it's fair to the people that live there that another, know, people that don't live there are coming in and taking credit or doing this type of work. So it's a tricky line, I think, but hopefully doing our best.
Danna Walker (she/her): Yeah, and I couldn't agree more, actually. I think the idea that's very much linked to, in my opinion, how architects are prepared for the role of architect is to see ourselves as the expert in everything or to try to be the expert in everything. But when you're going into communities, wherever they are in the world, the people who have experienced those spaces, those places, the people who have noticed where there are gaps or needs or challenges that perhaps haven't been picked up by institutions more often than not, can be invaluable. And it's always surprised me when engagement or what used to be called consultation is seen as a kind of little add-on, a moment which doesn't necessarily capture or manifest in the end. product, if we can use the word product. And I think when you then take that on an international scale, what you can often get are these sort of cross, cross concepts around what we mean by professional, what we mean by, you know, indigenous versus global, you know, there's all sorts of other kind of connotations. And I think you're kind of hinting at
Zafir Ameen: Mm.
Danna Walker (she/her): that. in terms of something you said about the language that you use as well.
Zafir Ameen: I think even in a local context, it's maybe even more surprising because you'd expect it to be bit more progressive. mean, we were looking at, for example, Oxford Street, and I'm sure lots of people maybe have read and heard about the changes that are coming in and pedestrianisation, and there has been consultations. And we,
Danna Walker (she/her): Yeah.
Zafir Ameen: out of curiosity, were looking at, there was one. Let's see what's done already and see
Danna Walker (she/her): Yeah.
Zafir Ameen: who was engaged. And you look at the statistics of people that were engaged, it's, as you can maybe imagine, a certain demographic of one gender that was asked most of the questions and it's like wow,
Danna Walker (she/her): Right.
Zafir Ameen: Oxford Street in particular attracts quite a lot of people. It's like people that live in London describe it as a tourist trap, which means there's a huge amount of other ethnicities and people that visit it, but if there's only one particular user that's asked or maybe there's only one particular person that puts themselves forward for these types of projects who... actually does or doesn't get a say. And I think that was very clear because the workshop we did was looking at Oxford Street, getting young people to actually engage and talk about the work, like what they think the area should do to them. And there was one group that really stood out to us because it was a group of like young girls, like school age girls that like, that was 16. And the first thing they said was about safety. They were like, they went immediately to what we said, what was the first thing you had put here? And I and their first suggestion was to put like police station security. And it was like, wow, this is like, you know, straight away, the 16 year old was the first thing they thought of a security. And we just know that that's not going to be the response that you would get from, you know, a typical, maybe adult or typical demographic and person is not going to be that maybe safety aspect. And so as you said, there really is an impressive richness to asking people that aren't usually asked these questions and seeing what
Danna Walker (she/her): Yeah.
Zafir Ameen: they do and don't want.
Danna Walker (she/her): Yeah, never assume. Absolutely. And that's so interesting. I was not expecting you to say that when even as you were telling the stories, trying to think about what could they have asked for? Security, police stations? No, I did not have that on my list at all. So these conversations become so pertinent, so important and invaluable for planners and designers. And one of the things that I'm often thinking about because of our focus on inclusion and your focus on social justice and advocacy, I'd really be interested to hear what you think. you know, as we're developing particularly city spaces, neighbourhoods, places, structures, if you could add something to make a city, place or space more inclusive, it can be anything you like. I'm really interested to hear what you would add if you could do anything you like. And it could be a real place or it could be much more about a particular type of space building, et cetera.
Zafir Ameen: I should, we should, should pattern this before I say it, because we like, discussed this for a potential competition and didn't quite like manifest, but I hope one day we'll be able to do it. But it was something so simple as a table in a public space and getting people to come together. I think there's something really powerful. There's lots going on in the UK at the moment. There's lots of hate and, you know, abuse of all sides. And I think there's a tolerance for different people, I think is...
Danna Walker (she/her): Yeah.
Zafir Ameen: maybe lower than it has been previously, unfortunately. I think part of that is just because people don't spend time together or as much time as they should. think people don't, I mean, part of what we're discussing right now with consultation is like just presence, just listening. Like it's like the amount of positive feedback we receive just because somebody listened to them. And I see it all the time in
Danna Walker (she/her): Yeah.
Zafir Ameen: my day job with OpenCity and working with young people. Nobody ever asks, like nobody ever asks a young person what they want and what they care, even just sitting down and asking. It's actually a funny, a funny change. see when I get, when you get to teaching university and you ask like first year students, like, what do you think or what do you want? And they
Danna Walker (she/her): Yeah.
Zafir Ameen: look at you blankly and it's not because they don't know it's because they've never been asked. Like school doesn't teach you to have an opinion. teaches you to buy heart something. And when you ask someone, what do you think of even something so simple as like, what do you think of this building? it will take them 20 minutes to give you something because they're not trained to think like that. Nobody's like listened to that idea. So in a very roundabout way, think like just having something that gets you there, that gets people together in a room. I mean, there's a really beautiful thing in Spanish culture called the sobremesa. And it's when it's like after you finish your meal, you stay at the table and you keep chatting for hours. Like my partner is Argentine and like without fail, it happens all the time. Like you finish lunch or dinner. and it's maybe like, one o'clock, but you'll be at the table till four because you're catching up. You're talking about what's happened. You like connecting with people. It's like more important than the food is like the staying around of that table. And so we did, yeah, there was like a potential project where we wanted to do something like that, where we just wanted people to have an excuse to sit together, to not do anything, maybe productive, but just chat and like be human with another person. think tech is another thing that's like massively changing the way we live and like for good and for bad but I think we are yeah we're definitely losing that and so I I would advocate for something as simple as just a massive long table where people can just have food catch up and just yeah be more human would be my final thoughts.
Danna Walker (she/her): Yeah. that's amazing. I love the idea. And it's reminded me of an image that I've seen. I'm not quite sure what celebration it was, but I think it was in mainland Europe, maybe in Italy, where in the neighborhood, they'd taken lots of tables and put them out in the street and occupied the whole street with these tables and all of the neighbors. And maybe they were all bringing different dishes and, you know, whatever they could contribute. it was about a shared meal. And it was about having that time to connect without there having to be like, oh, can I borrow something or your cat is in my garden or whatever it is, was just one of a kind of coming together. And the thing that you talked about is also made me think about social cohesion, but also the ways in which it can support wellness more generally. You know, that moment to de-stress, you've eaten your meal. and maybe a conversation stuff, but you're not rushing back to a desk or to your next bit on your to do list, you're actually taking the time to listen and to speak as a way also of
Zafir Ameen: Hmm.
Danna Walker (she/her): kind of de-stressing one of the things that we've seen, I think, particularly highlighted in terms of wellness, things around loneliness, and you're absolutely right, division and lack of social cohesion. So I love this idea. I really hope that it...
Zafir Ameen: I think it's, think it's... I think it's just, it's just like some of these things like you talk about, feel like people wouldn't imagine them as being a spatial problem, but I think in that is the issue, like we're talking about putting tables outside in space. partly because there is in a space like that already that exists. We were at an event actually last Monday where there's one of the celebration events for one of our programs. And we asked a similar question to young people, to these primary school students, what do you want? And one of them said something like, I just want a place to do things after school, to do activities. And the person I was hosting gave a very witty response of, that was called the Youth Center and we lost them a long time ago. And it's a very in... in like all of these comments and in the things that people want, there is a real architectural either solution or mitigation. Like in the same example, there's the young girls who wanted like safety. There's something that space isn't giving them or is like taking away. That means you maybe need something else to stop like their solution of maybe putting two massive police stations on either end of Oxford street maybe isn't the answer, but in
Danna Walker (she/her): Yeah.
Zafir Ameen: there is something. And I think with young people in particular, like there's There are lots of hints as to the ideas. It just needs to be a bit more developed. Like lots of them talk about transport or movement in more abstract ways. Like they would rather have slides or they'd rather have, I don't know, waterfalls down buildings, they seem far-fetched. But somewhere deep down, is like there is something real that they're highlighting. And I think we need to listen a bit more to those.
Danna Walker (she/her): Yeah, I think so. Yeah. And that's, and that's so interesting, because there's a kind of, there's something quite interesting about the desire for something that feels real and tangible and has limits, you know, someone who is reminding you that there are laws and there are things that you can't do, but at the same time that interest in playfulness, you know, if I could get from here to here on a slide, I'd rather do that. because actually sitting on the bus isn't that interesting or sitting on the tube isn't that interesting. And at the same time, know, most of the things I see on social media where people are on the tube, they've kind of taken speakers down there and having a bit of a party and completely changing the nature of that space. are now dancing or whatever it is that they might be doing. So I think that that's really interesting. the sort of almost tug between something that feels like it has more limits and something that feels so much freer, but the trying to get that balance
Zafir Ameen: Mm.
Danna Walker (she/her): right. Yeah.
Zafir Ameen: I think the I mean, I know we keep talking about Oxford Street specifically, but I think it's a good example because lots of those lessons came from COVID, like when COVID shut down everything and cities were scrambling to be like, how do we get people to use public space again? And lots of them did, you know, like eat out to help out, but lots of restaurants suddenly got unlimited licenses to eat outside or to like increase their terror space. And suddenly they were like booming businesses that like, you know, were thought were on the brinks of collapse because nobody wanted to eat outside. suddenly realized like, I guess, like lots of Europe, as you said, in Italy have been doing for decades or centuries. We can enjoy space in different ways. And suddenly everybody came back because there was a space to hang out with your friends, young people, think. I don't think I've ever seen as many young people as like that window when like COVID was getting a bit better and people were starting to introduce things outdoors. Like every young person was in a park, in a public space because the city was more accessible. And I think we need to get back to that kind of thinking again before we lose it and to go back to everything the way it was.
Danna Walker (she/her): Absolutely. And I think this, we just happen to be speaking on one of the many hottest record breaking days of the year. And the way people are using space because of changes in temperature, you know, perhaps, you know, there's been lots of discussion about, you know, as a country we've designed for the climate of the past, which is we need to conserve heat. And now what we're facing is going to be in all likelihood a mixture of both that we'll have. much more extreme cold and extreme heat, but that affects behaviour because of design. really do think that connection between design, behaviours, expectations, society, cohesion is incredibly important. And the need for space, which is not branded space, that's what I'm going to call it, I think. I think there's an expectation that young people should go to a fast food place and have there and then you can, it's like, no, why does it always have to be a branded or commercialized space? Going back to your initial comments about the ways in which capitalism also has an effect. You know, we need spaces that whether you have some money or you don't, you can still be part of something. It isn't a barrier. to being connected to your neighbours, to your neighbourhood, that kind of thing.
Zafir Ameen: like unproductive free space. you know, it's
Danna Walker (she/her): Yeah.
Zafir Ameen: like, even as you say, I think there are connotations of being like lazy or not being like, you know, useful. I think, I think we need more of I think we're so regimented and so fixed in our way. And
Danna Walker (she/her): Yeah.
Zafir Ameen: I guess I come back to like, you know, the frustrations we had of architecture is like this mad scramble of like space, like how can we use every possible space, build on every single square meter to make someone else like money and Sometimes the answer is just, let's not build on that one tiny five square meter plot. Like,
Danna Walker (she/her): Yeah.
Zafir Ameen: let's leave it for someone to enjoy. Like, why can we not just have that as the response?
Danna Walker (she/her): Yeah, it's interesting because in agriculture they do that, don't they? It might only be for a period and we've certainly seen the kind of the meanwhile space or the pop-up kind of space where temporarily it might be productive but for some period of time it isn't. But in agriculture, yeah, you always leave some fields fallow, you know, because you want to make sure you're not taking, extracting too much from the soil. So you need a chance,
Zafir Ameen: Mm.
Danna Walker (she/her): an opportunity.
Zafir Ameen: I think another architectural buzzword is meanwhile spaces and that think is what we're almost talking about is where you have exactly something for a little bit that everyone can use. for. can't remember how many years it was supposed to be there for. And it was there for like almost triple its lifespan because it did something that didn't realize it suddenly brought people to this part of London Like it was definitely branded, but there was some flexibility in terms of, you know, where you could go, you could choose to eat in this one or that one. There was public space between the different units. And again, young people like realized it was a place they could gather and the popularity overtook its like role as a meanwhile space. And I think we, yeah, we need something else. We need like a more permanent version of that, but along the right lines, I think.
Danna Walker (she/her): Yeah, and I think because it adopted a very different architectural language, it allowed people from the local community to co-produce a space by operating their own unique places for food or shopping or whatever it is. So yeah, I think it's that kind of hybrid between, you know, having spaces which can adopt a different use. but also really co-producing with the community. That's what made it successful and exciting as well.
Zafir Ameen: I think that's the power of just involving people in the projects. there's a lot of, I mean, there's lots of work that's going into care and maintenance of projects. And I think the real secret lies in getting people to help build it. I think you would care less if somebody else, again, going back to what we were discussing about like, saviourism and getting people like coming in and doing something for you. Like I would care a lot less if somebody did that on your behalf, as opposed to if I had also helped build something. And that's, guess, part of the narrative that I think shouldn't be that hard, hopefully, to involve is to get people want to have a say and want to literally build things, use their hands. And I think there's something in that itself that would hopefully help increase the longevity of some of these works.
Danna Walker (she/her): Yeah, because suddenly you've got some connection beyond, well, I can't remember what it used to be, but I walked past the hoarding and now there's something else there. You if you've been involved, if you've been part of the conversation, if you physically in some way, shape or form contributed, it becomes your building. You know, you can't go for a walk or a journey with an architect without them pointing out that they're going, yeah, I worked on that or something like that. And that sense of pride that you have, if that's the right word. It stays with you forever to know that you've kind of contributed something or hopefully contributed something. So it'd be amazing if everyday people who are not necessarily bit environment specialists could also have that sense of ownership and empowerment through building.
Zafir Ameen: think that's why like I kept talking about the self-built nature of like what an informal settlement is. I think there's a lot to admire like I know that you know obviously they get a really bad reputation for the type of environment that it is but there's a lot I think to learn from the amount of pride that they take in building their own projects and their own work and lots of work that has gone on in that community in particular has been the creation of staircases because in this environment Lima for people that maybe don't know is very hilly. It's got a very like steep terrain. It's quite high, it's got quite strong altitude and particularly for these people from I guess more marginalised backgrounds, they're not going to have like prime flat real estate in the middle of the city. It's going to be really intense terrain, mountainous terrains in an arid desert landscape so it's quite brutal on all fronts. And so staircases become quite a diplomatic way of building things between people just like how does how do people access their own homes? And so part of what Medlife, this other organization has been doing lots for their community build is like building those together so that people in the communities build their own staircases. So it empowers them not only to have a role, but the maintenance of their place. They get to live better and they actually get to actively engage in the creation and adaptation of their current place.
Danna Walker (she/her): That sounds amazing. Staircases are not easy at the best of times, but in that kind of terrain. Wow, that sounds so cool.
Zafir Ameen: Yeah, they're definitely not the, by UK standards, probably not the safest things in the world. There's no handrails to be seen anywhere, but they get along. There's things that would definitely shock, I think, a UK architect. yeah, when it comes down to necessities, there are some things which let slip a little bit.
Danna Walker (she/her): as one of the original four co-founders, what do you think the biggest kind of lessons around leadership have you taken away from the role? What would you say to someone who is about to begin their journey as a leader?
Zafir Ameen: Don't do it alone. I think is the best like lesson I could give I think it is really useful like it's invaluable and To have other people to help you no matter what form that takes like some people will still start maybe a one-person Company, but I think the advice or the mentorship that you get from other people will make or break You know the things that you do, but if you are in a fortunate position to have other co-founders or other people I think it really It's just super fruitful to have other people's input and expertise. mean, like we discussed like different backgrounds and specialisms. I guess that's like one one take. But I think people's individual interests, especially recently, has been really interesting to involve. I think that's again part of the reason we've kind of branched out into other areas is because we're kind of following the path and the interest that certain people have. So we've, you know, are doing more research, more advocacy, but in the areas and locations of our teams. So what started out as being very Latin American in origin and in sight, we're now looking at, you know, supporting one of our team who's doing her master's in Greece and looking at mining and the impact of this town and space and how it's getting displaced by this massive mining corporation that's basically running over this town. and another member of our team is doing river activism in rural Ecuador. I think it's really enriching the angles that have come out of it and it's all just by supporting every single individual person and where they're going. So to come back to your question, think it's just finding great people to work with, whatever capacity that is, and just really empowering them to do and follow what they're interested in.
Danna Walker (she/her): Fantastic. Thank you. It's been so inspiring listening to you. I kind of wish that, you know, when I'd started or first graduated that, you know, I'd met someone like you, who kind of go, okay, can pop something and it will be global, will be this, that and the other. You know, everything you said is absolutely fascinating and it just piques more and more curiosity. I hope people that are listening to this will go and discover more. via your website and follow you on social to see some of the more exciting things that you've got coming up, including events in the UK and it sounds perhaps globally as well. I really appreciate you making time to join me on the podcast. Thank you so much.
Zafir Ameen: Thank you so much for having me. yeah, any, like I know it is, maybe we've, you know, romanticized it that I know it is really difficult, like starting a company and doing all of these things. if anybody ever has any questions, we're all super open. We are open to any collaborations from anyone, but equally, if you're in the position of thinking about it or starting a company or doing this kind of humanitarian work, like feel free to get in touch. think our email is very public on our website as well. And so you can reach out or message me personally. And yeah, we're always open for a chat.
Danna Walker (she/her): Fantastic. Thank you so much. I hope you have a great day.
Zafir Ameen: Thank you. Thank you so much for having me and us again.
