Navigating Burnout with Ellen Meyer

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Welcome to Bubbles and Breakdowns, a space designed for you to show up as your beautifully imperfect self, where we dive into the good, the bad, and the bubbly.
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I'm Katrina.
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I'm Ashley.
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And I'm Ellen.
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Do you ever feel like you're running a marathon you didn't sign up for with a backpack full of everyone else's expectations?
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Well, today we are pulling back the curtain on a crisis so many of us are quietly drowning in the perfect storm of burnout.
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Today we get to unpack exactly why we are wired for this exhaustion.
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But it's not just in our heads, it's in our changing biology during these middle third years, leaving us running unempted in a modern workspace that has completely fractured.
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If you're living in autopilot, bouncing from one fire to the next, this episode is your permission slip to stop surviving and start fighting for your calm.
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We're sharing personal rock bottom moments.
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There may be a lot of those, rock career realities, and some practical tools you can use to compartmentalize your work, change your frequency, and just reclaim your peace.
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Yes, let's do that.
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I love this.
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This is so exciting.
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We are thrilled to be joined by Ellen Meyer today.
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She is a strategist, coach, and self-described professional hype woman for working women and executive leaders.
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You'll see, guys, she cuts through the noise of standard corporate coach speak with her depth, definitely humor, and zero script.
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After 20 years of climbing the corporate ladder, Ellen now runs Grounded Growth LLC, where she does coaching and keynotes on burnout, workplace BS, and leading organizational change.
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She is obsessed with brain science, which, like, that's so near and dear to my scholarship.
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Katrina's a scholar.
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I was gonna say nerd, but I was like, ooh.
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It's fine.
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I'll I'll take it.
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Habit formation and human psychology and simply figuring out how women can heal from burnout without burning their whole lives down.
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Ellen, welcome, welcome to Bubbles of Breakdown.
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We are so, so excited.
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Oh, wonderful.
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And and just this whole burnout culture is running rampant in the corporate world.
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I can like raise my hand high that I have experienced this very near term.
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Same.
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Actually has experienced this.
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And that's why having you on who have really dedicated time, effort, and research to what's going on with burnout.
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Why is this happening?
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And that's a great place for us to start, right, Ashley?
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Absolutely.
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We want to say, Ellen, tell us about burnout and what you've learned and impart some wisdom on this on this group of individuals.
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What's the why?
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Yeah, I'm I'm really glad we're talking about it.
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Although, to be honest, everyone's talking about burnout, but the numbers are still getting worse.
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And so that's kind of a sobering thing that really did prompt me to like get really understand it better.
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So why?
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Okay.
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First of all, we always have to go way back.
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So I feel like a lot of our childhoods were burnout prep school in a way, right?
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So think like we are what did we like?
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I'm an elder millennial slash young Gen Xer, right?
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I'm like right between those menials, yes.
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Yes, exactly, exactly.
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But I think like anyone in that that was growing up in like 80s and 90s, it was a very like specific generation of girls like growing up in that era.
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So I feel like we grew up fast.
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Um, a lot of us would say like we were hyper responsible.
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Like that was the first era of like latchkey kids, or that whole right?
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So it was like you got home, you took care of things, you played till dark, came home, right?
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It was a very independent generation.
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I also think that a lot of women I talked to, and and me included, we also grew up in emotionally volatile households.
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And so there was this sense of like, I just I handle stuff and I read the room.
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Like I adjust to what needs to happen, I keep the peace.
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So I think this combo of like hyper responsibility and hyper like intuition, how are people doing?
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Um really is kind of a recipe for overfunctioning.
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Right?
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Which is like, hey, we're we're we're not just like taking care of things, we're taking care of people.
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And if you fast forward that a couple more decades, a lot of us like are in the throes of that.
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Like, I call myself a recovering overfunctioner because I feel like so much of what I'm doing is trying to pull back, like trying to control and take care of everything at all at all times.
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The other thing I was really thinking about and talk about is remember this was the era where college admissions became super competitive.
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Yeah, that's true.
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Yes, right?
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So we had this message as kids, like, okay, go to school, get a great job, especially women, because this was like a really fabulous era for women, like in the workplace, and we were gonna work and do great things and have the kick out.
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Shatter that ceiling, yeah.
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Like women's empowerment to the 10th degree.
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Yeah, yeah, yeah.
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But like, I I mean, I was like, I feel like we started resume building almost in middle school.
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It's true.
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What clubs are you in?
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Like, what sports are you doing?
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Are you volunteering enough?
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Did you help with the parade?
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You know, yeah, all of it.
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The float making for homecoming, whatever it was, yeah.
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And so, like, again, we've got this like hyper responsible taking care of things, and then you add this like achievement component.
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And right, does that resonate with the we could like we could reflect back a little because when we talk about this and when I hear you, I mean, all of this feels like you were literally in my home growing up.
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I am triggered, same.
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Yeah, like I had the volatile households, I had a job at 15.
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I actually had to give up extracurriculars and taking on responsibility so early in life, and I could ride my bike across the entire city and be able to be out until dark and all this hyper responsibility, hyper intuition.
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I mean, I'm looking at Ashley, she's she's our sensitive, like she reads the room better than anybody.
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I am a sensey, but also when you were saying this, I was like, you know, I I was thinking a lot about this, getting so excited for the to record this episode with you, thinking about we don't talk about this why enough.
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And thinking about people pleasing, kind of I was like, I was a people pleaser probably at five and didn't even know it.
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Yeah, yeah.
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I mean, this is where I mean, I don't want to get we're not gonna therapise here, but you know, a lot of what we do does touch on patterns, patterns that develop before we even realize that they're a means of survival.
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And not in a dramatic sense, but I mean, for some people, yes, but I just mean like this was how we catch things steady in our lives.
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And so there is this sense of like, wow, there's all these patterns that develop when we're young.
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And by the way, then we get the job and we are rewarded for being so good at handling so many things, at keeping like part of your superpower, Ashley, of like reading people is like you're probably a kick-ass manager, right?
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Because you can keep everybody steady.
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And so then the workplace like really rewards these traits and in a great way.
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I mean, again, these are like part of what make us really they're powerful strengths.
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The problem is when you fast forward a couple of decades and all of a sudden you also have this layer of family life and responsibility, all the adulting that we have to do, and just the plate gets so full, and all these patterns, the perfectionism, the people pleasing, which we talked about.
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Like for me, I'm like very much performance-driven, like productivity, like what did I get done today?
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Checklist, checklist exactly, and like all these things that again they were such benefits to us early on, building a career, all of that, we just get to where we can't sustain that same level, and we start to question, we start to, you know, if we're really doing the work, which I think is critical, we talk about burnout, is we start to look at like what are my own patterns that help fuel this.
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Right.
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Which takes us to the second one, which is a really big one, too.
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So the why of like, okay, part of it is like what patterns that developed, but the second one is we then experience this massive hormonal shift.
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Oh yeah.
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I know a water cross-perimenopause, stand up, oh no, the things that we yeah, and and and we're finally talking about it more.
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Thank God, literally.
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Um, but we're also learning it starts earlier.
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Yeah.
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So by 35 sometimes, yeah, yeah.
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Yeah, yeah.
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And what happens is like basically in that 10-year stretch, roughly 35 to 45, is what I call these the hustle hormones.
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So these are like the progesterone, estrogen, the testosterone, all these things that actually like fuel that hustle that I was just talking about.
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Um, those are cut in half during that stretch of time.
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I have felt this so much, where as before, you know, our capacity would have been much higher and our resiliency would have been much higher.
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To your point of like this, I love the way you phrase it as a hustle hormone.
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Yes, but that is what it takes.
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It's like energy that just wanes out of our body, and then we can't think clearly.
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There's so many impacts of all this resiliency.
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The resiliency, I can't bounce back, right?
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It takes me so much longer to bounce back, right?
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Exactly.
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Like sleep, like our recovery, sleep.
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I mean, how many of us are struggling with sleep in this stretch of time?
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Throw a glass of wine on there, and now we're up all night, all night.
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Oh, yeah, no, it's it's crazy.
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And then uh, yeah, so so literally our recovery takes longer, that emotional resilience.
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So again, we we now have like these patterns that are well developed.
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And then when we're like, wait a second, why can't I handle this as fluidly as I used to, right?
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Like, oh, I used to crush it, right?
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I could I could I could get by on four hours of sleep and still like nail that presentation at work.
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Or, you know, like, but we can't, we just we can't survive on protein bars and you know, like we we have to care for ourselves differently now.
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But but this is a huge part of burnout that I talk about a lot because I don't think we're talking about the biological part of burnout enough.
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No, and I didn't even really think of it as a factor until I came across your page.
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And I'm like, you know, sometimes you just need that light bulb moment to hear it from someone else.
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That's what you were for me to say, oh my gosh, this is starting to click.
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And also let's spread this word to people to say, you're not alone in this.
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Yeah, because it's heavy.
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And and this, and this was part of my own like journey to figure out right because here's what happens, guys.
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We don't just all of a sudden wake up and go, maybe I'm burnt out.
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I'm gonna have a lot more grace for myself.
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That doesn't happen, right?
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We usually push through.
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Yeah, we try to do all the things to get back to who we were and what we could handle at 35.
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I mean, I told myself, like, it must be that I like I need to get in better shape, I need to have more, you know, more productivity hacks, I need to manage my time better.
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Those are helpful skills, but they're not gonna solve burnout, right?
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Especially when you've got a true biological capacity shift happening.
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So part of that is really just and I say this a lot, like it that realization can be both like some relief, but also grief.
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Right.
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Because you enjoyed that phase of your life when you were firing in all cylinders and delivering, and you felt so energized, the way that maybe you were, you know, rewarded growing up, and then how you achieved success.
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And then you're you really do struggle with this like lack of new identity, I think, in a way, of saying, how do I identify how to feel good about myself at this new intersection of hormones and getting older?
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And you know, I totally and I I actually really don't think it's like, oh, now we're we're just we've got a downshift the rest of our lives.
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I actually don't think that's the message.
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I think it's like this recalibration because I'm like, okay, my capacity is different, not better or worse, it's different.
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So, how do I get more intentional with my time, my energy, my how I care for myself, those types of things?
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Because being on autopilot, living in that default mode, that's where we're just gonna keep feeling like we're never, you know, we're we're always depleted.
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So I think it's so I think the bottom line is I think it can be a really hopeful thing, but it does, it can come with like the sense of like, man, like this feels hard, right?
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Just the weight is the weight is too heavy, right?
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And and it's almost like an immovable rock, but now let's throw motherhood on it.
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I mean, like, why not have some kids, right?
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Why don't you I found myself the other day telling my husband, like, I just need to not be responsible for a day.
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And I think it literally started just thinking about like, you're right, early on, I was responsible for so much.
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Again, the eldest daughter, again, like all these things that now I'm like, I just need like I don't care who eats what for dinner.
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I don't care who's got clean clothes tomorrow.
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Like, I just need like a break to say regulate myself.
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Yeah, or just to not be receiving stimulus all day.
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Yes, right.
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Yeah.
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But I think that's huge, Ashley, because that's a great example of like these are patterns I've always told myself I have to be responsible for everything.
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Where and and how am I gonna catch myself and make and choose instead of by default, like what I pour into?
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I I think motherhood if teaches, I mean, I have three children.
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If it if it taught me anything, it's like you really do have to be conscious about what you want to pour energy into.
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Because if you do try to do all the things and be all the things, you will by default end up like not really being able to, you know, focus where really the most important energy goes.
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Some of it is like letting some of those things go, hand handing them off, being okay with how your spouse might handle that thing.
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I mean, these are the these are the tough details of it, but those are a lot of tactical like ways to reframe priorities.
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And this hits home to me, Ellen, so much.
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And again, we're not going through a therapy session, but is our listeners are out there saying, yeah, that I it's hard for me to leave my house dirty, or it's hard for me to let my husband do the drop-off because I love seeing them, or I like to grocery shop because I pick the the right quote unquote things, you know.
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There's a little bit of like this relinquishing control that can be challenging.
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And I think especially because we have a proxy of how we're comparing ourselves, of how we used to be.
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And so it's like this whole calibration.
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I love that word, and it's a really good call to action to say, you know, don't throw out all these things you love about yourself, but calibrate and maybe right size for where we are in our lives.
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Um, I I love the way you frame that.
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And the next thing we wanted to talk about that, you know, so there's kind of like this how we're raised, the biology, and then, you know, add motherhood if that's a choice for people to have children.
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But then there's this whole landscape of career life and work that looks vastly different that we've experienced a huge evolution, especially post the pandemic, right?
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So we'd love to get your perspective on what you uncovered and unearthed about this.
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Yeah, that is the third thing because you've got sort of these internal dynamics, but then you put that into this landscape of the future of work and the world of work like dramatically changing.
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Right.
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So we've got the internal components of burnout, but I was even thinking back to the start of my career and like getting my first, I this is how old I feel.
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Like it was a Blackberry, was like my first.
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Oh, yeah, I had it.
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I returned that thing.
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I beat it so much.
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It was awful.
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It was horrible.
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Who made this up?
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You got a I know, but you got a work phone, yeah, right?
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And it was like, okay, well, yeah, you occasionally use it.
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But if you think we went from that maybe what 15 years ago, yeah, to now like our our work is literally with us constantly.
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It's true, it's in our pocket, constantly, yeah.
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Yeah, so so the we cannot understate like the impact of like technology and that sense of always being on, even if you're not on the device and on the email, our brains have lost that demarcation between work and home.
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And just like you said, COVID really just all of it collided.
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Yeah.
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I always say with smartphones working in our bedrooms, right?
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Yes, and I still am.
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You know, my my standing desk is in my bedroom, and there's no more disentangling or separation between my worlds.
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And I always say with the smartphones, it's like we're walking around with the entire world in our pocket, and you know, it takes like a cognizant effort to remove that device from our reachable grasp, you know, it's just always there.
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And even if you can do that physically, there's work to be done to actually like really retrain your brain of like, no, this time right now is actually my home time, my family time, because it's so easy to like, yeah, I could put the device in the next room, but I'm like ruminating about the meeting or worrying about how Monday's gonna go and the pitch I'm doing, whatever the thing is.
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So I think there's both like the time or the like physical space boundary, but also how are we kind of creating boundaries around like our energy of how we're thinking about it?
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That's hard, it's really hard because again, go back to all those ways that we thrived, right?
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Was being on top of everything.
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Yep, and now we're having to like decondition some of that, and it's really hard.
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The other thing is the pace of change in the workforce is insane.
00:18:51.359 --> 00:19:00.400
It's while we introduce AI, which is not regulated, that's taking up a ton of like real resources in the world, and we don't even know how to manage it.
00:19:00.640 --> 00:19:03.680
And everyone wants to use it though, right?
00:19:03.839 --> 00:19:07.119
Yeah, just the same that we don't for the sake of using it.
00:19:07.519 --> 00:19:12.079
Okay, and and AI is like obviously like is a seismic shift.
00:19:12.319 --> 00:19:13.279
Oh, seismic is a good idea.
00:19:13.440 --> 00:19:15.039
And I use I do use it every day.
00:19:15.279 --> 00:19:16.720
Yeah, I do, yeah.
00:19:16.960 --> 00:19:21.680
But we but this pace of innovation has been happening for for many years.
00:19:21.759 --> 00:19:36.240
So, really, ostensibly, like since we entered the workforce, like think of like again, we talked about blackberries, but like everything, not just technology, but the pace, and I'll geek out a tiny bit because I was on the ops business side, like a COO.
00:19:36.480 --> 00:19:45.039
And so, even as a business leader, the pace of having to stay on top of innovation and make make decisions was shorter term, right?
00:19:45.279 --> 00:19:49.920
Because of how quick the the economy and the world works now.
00:19:50.160 --> 00:20:01.039
Um, which means for the employee and the working women like us, like there is like we stay at jobs like much shorter period of time, right?
00:20:01.119 --> 00:20:13.440
There's much less structure and stability in work in general, and we're seeing that, of course, we're seeing that dramatically with layoffs and recalibration and re-orgs, you know, all of this.
00:20:13.519 --> 00:20:23.119
So, so the entire like structure of stability of work that we thought we were like paying into now feels like sinking sand.
00:20:23.440 --> 00:20:26.880
But isn't that so interesting how these things happen over a course of decades?
00:20:27.039 --> 00:20:34.640
You know, you look at the real estate market, and when my mother was growing up, Ellen, it was like if you bought a house, you just bought the best investment of your life.
00:20:34.960 --> 00:20:35.279
Your life.
00:20:35.519 --> 00:20:39.680
Like you were flush, you were set, it was nothing, it was gonna do nothing but go up in value.
00:20:39.920 --> 00:20:49.519
And now the prices right now in many areas, if you buy there, it's gonna go down in value and it's gonna happen that you know, and so we see these ebbs and flows.
00:20:49.599 --> 00:20:50.160
And we do.
00:20:50.400 --> 00:21:06.000
I think reflecting back on the pace of technology, what it causes is the burden of learning, constant learning, you know, when when you were talking about that, and I've actually been reflecting on this as I just started a new role, Ellen, is I was like, what if things were simplified?
00:21:06.240 --> 00:21:15.279
What if people went back to notebooks and had to like keep their contacts in a piece of paper and they didn't have to learn all this technology?
00:21:15.440 --> 00:21:20.079
And what my hypothesis is maybe we could be actually way more effective and productive.
00:21:20.319 --> 00:21:20.720
Probably.
00:21:20.960 --> 00:21:27.599
Because there you're not having to be in this constant learning, because if we're in constant learning, then we're not in constant engagement and there's this trade-off.
00:21:27.839 --> 00:21:30.319
And so I think we're gonna see the tip of the scale back.
00:21:30.480 --> 00:21:36.480
The pendulum is like really shifting in this direction of more technology, more effectiveness, more data.
00:21:36.720 --> 00:21:41.359
And I think we're gonna start going Hermit Crab back and recede back into our old ways, fingers crossed.
00:21:41.519 --> 00:21:42.000
I don't know.
00:21:42.240 --> 00:21:45.759
I was gonna say, I I love like a countercultural take.
00:21:45.920 --> 00:21:48.319
So I would I would love if that happens.
00:21:48.480 --> 00:21:54.079
I do think person to person within teams, within like relationships, I think we're seeing this.
00:21:54.240 --> 00:21:55.839
I think people are desperate for community.
00:21:56.079 --> 00:21:56.400
Oh, yeah.
00:21:56.480 --> 00:21:56.960
A hundred percent.
00:21:57.279 --> 00:21:58.799
I think that's the that's the other thing.
00:21:58.960 --> 00:21:59.599
Like, I think.
00:22:00.079 --> 00:22:09.279
There are lots of perks to being remote, especially as working moms, but it is very hard to have genuine camaraderie and community in the same way.
00:22:09.440 --> 00:22:12.559
Like I have a lot of nostalgia for like early in my career.
00:22:12.720 --> 00:22:21.039
Like I was in finance, like you were like with a bunch of young people, like analysts, like we were like figuring it out and ordering pizza and staying late.
00:22:21.119 --> 00:22:23.759
Like there was fun.
00:22:23.839 --> 00:22:24.480
It was fun.
00:22:24.640 --> 00:22:30.319
And you know, and I think a lot of just the way that we work now, we're geographically spread out.
00:22:30.720 --> 00:22:36.640
Um I think I think work's a lot more uh transactional than relational in a lot of ways.
00:22:36.799 --> 00:22:48.640
And so especially like how we're wired, like part of why we probably enjoy work is is like interacting with people and engaging with people for better or worse.
00:22:48.720 --> 00:22:50.960
I mean, there are certainly downsides.
00:22:51.200 --> 00:22:51.359
Right.
00:22:51.599 --> 00:22:54.160
The hardest part of work is also the people, usually.
00:22:54.400 --> 00:23:00.799
Um but I think there's just that's a whole different shift in like how work how work looks totally.
00:23:00.880 --> 00:23:05.839
And I um before I left corporate America, I was an employer brand.
00:23:06.079 --> 00:23:10.720
So my job was connecting employees with their purpose.
00:23:11.359 --> 00:23:16.559
And it's hard, especially in the remote world, to have build this connection.
00:23:16.799 --> 00:23:21.920
And I think we're just gonna it it's tough, but you're right, companies also have changed, right?
00:23:22.559 --> 00:23:24.559
But I will say drastically, yeah.
00:23:24.799 --> 00:23:28.559
I love Ellen that you indicated it's by person, it's by team, it's by leader.
00:23:28.720 --> 00:23:39.599
And when I when I had the opportunity in my last role to lead a larger field team, we really were hyper live interaction, also because the nature of the job that they had.
00:23:39.839 --> 00:23:49.839
And I will say that the enjoyment and the um reward of working on a team that has fun together is so, so critical.
00:23:49.920 --> 00:24:01.039
But we have switched to this kind of I'm not gonna micromanage you, I'm not gonna force you to come in live too often, people being upset if they have to go in three days a week to an office because it's disruptive to their life.
00:24:01.279 --> 00:24:11.519
And and I feel like it is definitely lost on many, many, many teams and many leaders the importance of those live engagements, not to be micromanaging, but to build community.
00:24:11.599 --> 00:24:13.440
I think this is such a great, great point.
00:24:13.599 --> 00:24:17.119
And I do hope we see more of it, just being a little optimistic.
00:24:17.440 --> 00:24:18.480
Yeah, I love that.
00:24:18.640 --> 00:24:19.519
No, I love that.
00:24:19.680 --> 00:24:20.240
I love that.
00:24:20.720 --> 00:24:33.920
Um, yeah, I'm curious how you see it, Katrina, though, because you're still in the working world, and it's critical that we have women that I mean, my my whole thesis is like we need women at every every seat at the table.
00:24:34.160 --> 00:24:36.880
Like every we need women at every table.
00:24:37.039 --> 00:24:40.160
Yeah, and yet so many of us are burning out.
00:24:40.319 --> 00:24:45.200
And the the prevailing message right now is like just quit and do your own thing.
00:24:45.519 --> 00:24:49.759
And I think that's good for a lot of people, but if I really play that out, what happens?
00:24:50.160 --> 00:24:55.039
We leave we leave a lot of holes where we need to be in the room making decisions.
00:24:55.200 --> 00:25:08.160
So I think it's like a really it's a really critical point, I think, for what's happening and how women sort of find their role in this completely evolved um work work life, you know.
00:25:08.960 --> 00:25:22.640
Well, and not to unveil too many personal details, obviously this podcast is completely separate from my career and work, but we just selected our first ever female CEO um for a very large organization, and we have high representation of females.
00:25:22.799 --> 00:25:27.359
And I think that there is this balance of you do you don't want to burn them out.
00:25:27.519 --> 00:25:31.039
So it is about right-sizing the work expectations and engagement.
00:25:31.119 --> 00:25:37.599
And I hope that we continue to have those conversations because I know that you know, not every organization focuses on these things.
00:25:37.680 --> 00:25:45.440
So it does leave this trail of burnout dust and people jumping ship and maybe jumping ship to the point where they put themselves in financial distress.
00:25:45.599 --> 00:25:50.880
And obviously, we want to avoid that because we all have bills to pay families to take care of and take care of ourselves.
00:25:51.119 --> 00:25:56.559
So, to your point, you know, maybe it's not always quitting, but it's saying, What can you do?
00:25:56.720 --> 00:25:57.839
And I'd love to talk about that.
00:25:58.079 --> 00:25:58.240
Totally.
00:25:58.720 --> 00:26:04.480
What can we do to avoid and and yeah, yeah, right size the burnout exactly?
00:26:05.119 --> 00:26:06.559
Right size, oh my gosh.
00:26:06.720 --> 00:26:19.359
Well, I do think to your point, um, there is a a the company that you you know work for, the people you work for, they certainly do impact, but I think we have to look at our own contribution to burnout.
00:26:19.440 --> 00:26:22.319
Yeah because so much, I mean, this was my journey.
00:26:22.480 --> 00:26:31.599
Like, I I had lots of excuses for when I so I did, you know, the corporate grind, just like so many of us for 20 years, and and I loved a lot of it.
00:26:31.759 --> 00:26:42.240
I loved the strategy, I certainly loved the paycheck, I loved the title, like I loved a lot of components of it, and then like so many of us, like stuff goes sideways, right?
00:26:42.400 --> 00:26:46.240
Um, leadership got it just shifted and it was really hard.
00:26:46.319 --> 00:26:47.680
And it would have been very easy.
00:26:47.839 --> 00:26:48.799
Well, I'll be honest.
00:26:48.960 --> 00:26:51.759
Initially, I did want to blame everybody, right?
00:26:52.319 --> 00:26:57.839
Like the difficult, you know, the difficult CEO, the changing dynamics, the all of it.
00:26:58.000 --> 00:26:58.319
Right.
00:26:58.640 --> 00:27:07.119
But when I really got honest with myself, there was a lot of my own contribution to my own burnout.
00:27:07.759 --> 00:27:14.079
And so I couldn't expect they'd one day wake up and be like, oh wait, maybe we need to like help her have boundaries.
00:27:14.240 --> 00:27:20.160
No, that was like that was my part to kind of um contribute to.
00:27:20.640 --> 00:27:29.920
Um, so I think that's part of it is how do we how do we kind of get honest about those patterns and what we need to work on?
00:27:30.240 --> 00:27:35.599
Um but yeah, I mean, so let's see, your what's your so you tell me your question.
00:27:35.839 --> 00:27:38.400
Where do we have many thoughts?
00:27:39.200 --> 00:27:39.599
I can tell.
00:27:39.680 --> 00:27:55.759
And I just have to like plug if people, if like we're here at this stage, we're you know, 30-ish minutes almost into this podcast, and if it's resonating really, really high to our listeners, Ellen, you do have an opportunity for coaching and support, and you've got some great resources, which we'll highlight at the end.
00:27:55.839 --> 00:28:00.799
So I just want to say this is just that like sweep of of like very high level.
00:28:00.960 --> 00:28:05.359
So even though this feels somewhat deep, like I there's so many areas to your point, Ellen.
00:28:05.440 --> 00:28:08.400
But I'm I'm thinking basic ways to start.
00:28:08.559 --> 00:28:17.519
You know, we talked with you when we first met about fighting for calm, and maybe we can start there and and just kind of frame that up of what that even means to fight for calm.
00:28:17.680 --> 00:28:19.039
Yeah, yeah.
00:28:19.200 --> 00:28:24.480
We like we talked about technology, we talked about the pace of business, like kids.
00:28:24.559 --> 00:28:26.640
Hello, like that is like they are not calm.
00:28:26.720 --> 00:28:26.960
Nope.
00:28:27.759 --> 00:28:29.039
They're not calm.
00:28:29.279 --> 00:28:34.079
Um, and again, if we look back, uh like we've always been like striving and thriving.
00:28:34.240 --> 00:28:45.680
Yeah, however, especially this newfound hormonal shift, like our bodies and our nervous systems are desperate for silence and stillness.
00:28:46.000 --> 00:28:46.160
Agree.
00:28:46.480 --> 00:28:48.480
Which I don't know about you, that like freaks me out.
00:28:48.640 --> 00:28:48.880
Same.
00:28:49.279 --> 00:28:58.480
I I'm like, ugh, like because as soon as I I remember start trying to like meditate, because of course, like we all have had that, and I'm like, I'm three three seconds in, I'm going.
00:28:59.039 --> 00:29:03.039
And you're doing a to-do list, and you're like, I'm like, I gotta put a podcast on when I'm doing the dishes.
00:29:03.279 --> 00:29:07.119
I'm like, if they look at me and they don't have a head or earbud in my ear, something's up.
00:29:07.279 --> 00:29:07.920
Something's up.
00:29:08.319 --> 00:29:08.799
Yeah, yeah.
00:29:08.960 --> 00:29:23.359
So I'm not I'm not gonna say like start some you know streak of meditation, but there is this sense of like we are actually missing and actively negotiating against some of our body's like basic needs.
00:29:23.599 --> 00:29:30.160
So when I start with women, they want to talk often about like work and like all of that, which I'm I'm all in.
00:29:30.319 --> 00:29:36.079
Like I I help women navigate tough work situations, career decisions, and burnout.
00:29:36.319 --> 00:29:43.599
But I will often always go back to okay, how are you supporting your body's basic human needs?
00:29:44.559 --> 00:30:01.200
Because the reality is like the first things to go when we're stressed are what sleep, exercise, um, exercise, like taking a walk, diet, sitting out, going outside, getting some sunshine, um meal proper meals, right?
00:30:01.359 --> 00:30:04.000
Like I'm I'm stressed, I'm busy, I'm just like grabbing.
00:30:06.160 --> 00:30:06.400
Yeah.
00:30:06.640 --> 00:30:08.000
So kids leftovers.
00:30:08.240 --> 00:30:15.200
And then and then, of course, the idea isn't that we then like do a beach body routine and start meal prepping.
00:30:15.359 --> 00:30:20.160
Like I'm I'm that person that will over-engineer a solution I can never stick with.
00:30:20.400 --> 00:30:20.799
Right.
00:30:21.200 --> 00:30:23.119
I think it's the exact opposite.
00:30:23.359 --> 00:30:35.839
I think we go back to like what can I set as non-negotiable in my daily life that are me providing my body's like basic needs.
00:30:36.079 --> 00:30:39.279
Like literally the stupid, like I started stupid easy, right?
00:30:39.359 --> 00:30:42.640
So it was like in between every meeting, I walked my mailbox and back.
00:30:43.440 --> 00:30:44.240
It's like perfect.
00:30:44.799 --> 00:30:53.839
Something to get you oriented on like even like this whole phase that's coming at us right now, and we hear about is like snackable exercise.
00:30:54.000 --> 00:30:58.960
You know, it's like three minutes of strong exertion versus an hour and a half long walk.
00:30:59.119 --> 00:31:04.640
Because to your point, of like, are we setting ourselves up for success if we go with these crazy plans?
00:31:04.720 --> 00:31:10.079
And we've talked about this on the podcast before, is like if I hear another person that says I need to have wake up at 5 a.m.
00:31:10.400 --> 00:31:17.279
and drink the grain juice and like work out for two hours before my kids get up, I'm gonna scream because that sounds terrible.
00:31:17.440 --> 00:31:18.000
Can't do it.
00:31:18.559 --> 00:31:19.039
Can't do it.
00:31:19.279 --> 00:31:22.240
So, so my mine is like the exact opposite.
00:31:22.319 --> 00:31:24.400
So mine is how, like you said, snackable.
00:31:24.480 --> 00:31:29.119
Like, what are the smallest things that I can integrate throughout my day?
00:31:29.359 --> 00:31:30.640
Not as more to do.
00:31:31.359 --> 00:31:35.680
But the important the reason this is important is again, it's back to your brain.
00:31:35.839 --> 00:31:41.279
Your brain needs to relearn that your needs matter, right?
00:31:42.000 --> 00:31:47.119
And they are paramount, not just matter, but they are fundamental to how you functioning, right?
00:31:47.519 --> 00:31:48.160
Exactly.
00:31:48.319 --> 00:31:51.839
But that's but there's like so many of us, like that's kind of last on the list.
00:31:51.920 --> 00:31:53.440
Like, if I have time, I'll take a walk.
00:31:53.599 --> 00:31:59.440
And so, how do we sort of like and for me, I had to tell myself, like, I'm not bargaining on this anymore.
00:31:59.839 --> 00:32:03.200
I'm taking a walk every day, I'm gonna start with 15 minutes.
00:32:03.519 --> 00:32:06.559
I made it easy enough that I couldn't talk myself out of it.
00:32:07.039 --> 00:32:09.599
And then I told myself, like, this is not negotiable.
00:32:10.319 --> 00:32:18.160
And that mindset shift, it done in you know, little ways throughout the day, actually is is the only thing that sticks.
00:32:18.240 --> 00:32:27.279
Like nobody sticks with the hard 75, and like there's you intentionally do something really intense, but you know, trying to change.
00:32:27.359 --> 00:32:32.240
And the irony is of course, like almost always feels like failure because you can't sustain it.
00:32:32.720 --> 00:32:35.039
Well, and also it's a level of consistency.
00:32:35.200 --> 00:32:51.759
So when you look at real health, like throughout people who maintain like a healthy body weight, care for sleep, all of that, it's about finding what you can be consistent on that becomes just integral and an integrated part of your day.
00:32:51.920 --> 00:32:54.640
And then as you do it, it it pays off.
00:32:54.720 --> 00:33:03.359
It may take longer to pay off, it may be like a year before you drop those five pounds because you only have time for a 30-minute walk or a 25-minute jog or whatever that is.
00:33:03.599 --> 00:33:04.480
But I love that.
00:33:04.640 --> 00:33:11.519
It's about like looking at ourselves and saying, what what what can I do today that would be reasonable?
00:33:11.839 --> 00:33:19.680
And I think it's so hard though, because as three, I can say people pleaser overachievers, we want to go big or go home.
00:33:19.759 --> 00:33:21.119
And you want the results, right?
00:33:21.200 --> 00:33:24.480
And it's kind of like we we're used to setting that up in businesses.
00:33:24.559 --> 00:33:26.480
How do we do it for ourselves?
00:33:26.720 --> 00:33:28.400
But but you're exactly right.
00:33:28.559 --> 00:33:30.160
Like this is re-patterning.
00:33:30.319 --> 00:33:33.200
This is rewiring a pattern that we've always told ourselves.
00:33:33.359 --> 00:33:35.519
Well, unless it's XYZ, it's not worth it.
00:33:35.680 --> 00:33:45.680
Like, unless it's, you know, uh hit, you know, 30 minute, I'm sweating, I'm doing unless it's that or whatever, like the nth degree is, it doesn't count.
00:33:45.920 --> 00:33:47.839
This is where we have to rewire this.
00:33:47.920 --> 00:33:53.279
Because if you're burnt out, like the last thing you need to do is some over-the-top work.
00:33:53.680 --> 00:33:55.920
You need to actually intentionally go back.
00:33:56.000 --> 00:34:02.240
But here, think about it this way: we are an app, like we are a pressure cooker of stress every day, right?
00:34:02.319 --> 00:34:07.759
There's more on our plate, there's more drama, there's fires to put out, there's struggles our kids are having, whatever that is.
00:34:08.000 --> 00:34:11.679
Think of every three-minute tiny little window.
00:34:11.840 --> 00:34:22.400
And I don't care if it's a song you listen to, again, walking to your mailbox, like think of it as the pressure release valve on the pressure cooker, yeah, just dissipating a little bit.
00:34:22.639 --> 00:34:24.559
That's my like looking at the vegetable garden.
00:34:24.880 --> 00:34:26.559
I step out and take a look at it.
00:34:26.639 --> 00:34:35.599
And it especially, I think, for me, just to, I mean, and this works for ever example, but just because I'm looking introspectively at myself, stay-at-home mom, I'm like, oh, I'll do this when my husband gets home.
00:34:35.760 --> 00:34:36.960
I'm gonna explode.
00:34:37.119 --> 00:34:42.480
My pressure cooker lid is gonna end up in the front yard if I don't release throughout the day.
00:34:44.320 --> 00:34:44.800
That's right.
00:34:45.039 --> 00:34:46.960
And then you take it out on your pork sweet family.
00:34:47.119 --> 00:34:48.159
Oh, I do it all the time.
00:34:48.239 --> 00:34:49.599
And they're like, mom's crazy again?
00:34:49.679 --> 00:34:50.239
What's happening?
00:34:50.800 --> 00:34:51.199
Yes, I am.
00:34:51.360 --> 00:34:53.119
Well, her hormones are cut in half.
00:34:53.199 --> 00:34:54.480
And what do you think?
00:34:54.960 --> 00:34:56.159
Literally, yeah.
00:34:57.119 --> 00:34:58.960
Well, yeah, and that's the thing.
00:34:59.119 --> 00:35:01.280
I think it's relearning that like it does count.
00:35:01.519 --> 00:35:01.760
Right.
00:35:02.159 --> 00:35:04.239
Every little bit of that, it does count.
00:35:04.400 --> 00:35:07.440
And it's it's this way to kind of get our nervous system back.
00:35:07.599 --> 00:35:10.079
And then, of course, you stack, you can stack habits.
00:35:10.159 --> 00:35:22.000
So then I talk to women about like, okay, let's it's not 5 a.m., but it's like, what sort of stacked window of maybe a five-minute routine in the morning and a five-minute routine can you anchor your day in?
00:35:22.639 --> 00:35:30.480
Um, and we just start to create some pockets, and it's it's crazy how your brain will start to like work like want those rituals.
00:35:30.719 --> 00:35:31.199
It's amazing.
00:35:32.480 --> 00:35:34.079
So, anyway, that's where I start.
00:35:34.159 --> 00:35:47.360
Because also, if you want to do deeper work of like healing and working through burnout, you cannot do so if you're tired, like exhausted because you're not sleeping, you're you know, not fueling yourself, you're not moving your body.
00:35:47.440 --> 00:35:50.480
And so it really is like getting back to some of these basics.
00:35:50.719 --> 00:36:00.079
Well, what I love about it too, Ellen, is because you have you're making it simplified for this audience, but as you're talking for those who are more into like the science, right?
00:36:00.320 --> 00:36:07.199
The aspects that you're talking about when you talk about the deep work or understanding why, okay, that's your psychological aspect.
00:36:07.360 --> 00:36:15.039
When you talk about habits, it's reframing your neurological pathways, which is all about this we still have neuroplasticity and we can retrain ourselves.
00:36:15.119 --> 00:36:29.760
And I think there's just if we don't hear anything else in this episode, our capability and capacity for retraining how we think and what we do is not um definite.
00:36:29.920 --> 00:36:39.039
It is infinite, and we have to start reframing that it can happen at any stage, and we have to know that it maybe it won't happen as easily as it did when we were 20.
00:36:39.199 --> 00:36:46.079
We might have a longer time, you know, establishing habits and reconstructing our neural pathways, but we can do it.
00:36:46.159 --> 00:36:57.119
And I know I'm getting like again, Ashley is like scholar, but but at the same time, like I think there's just a fundamental reframe because a lot of times we find ourselves, Ellen, saying, Ah, it's just the way I am.
00:36:57.360 --> 00:37:12.800
This is I just have to learn how to deal with this is just the way I am, or this is just who I am, and this is and that kind of like settling in and not allowing ourselves to grow and to learn how to operate differently can really hold us back from enjoying a healthy, happy life, right?
00:37:13.039 --> 00:37:14.400
So he yes, totally.
00:37:14.480 --> 00:37:17.360
But here's here's a reframe on that reframe a little bit.
00:37:17.599 --> 00:37:17.840
Yeah.
00:37:18.079 --> 00:37:18.880
I give it to you.
00:37:19.039 --> 00:37:22.079
There are a lot, we a lot of us do have these patterns, right?
00:37:22.239 --> 00:37:26.159
I am a perfectionist and I know that I can overthink stuff, right?
00:37:26.239 --> 00:37:27.840
And really ruminate on stuff.
00:37:28.000 --> 00:37:31.199
But instead of like really, oh, well, I need to rewire that.
00:37:31.360 --> 00:37:33.760
What I do is I say, well, that's part of my process.
00:37:34.000 --> 00:37:34.559
Oh, I love it.
00:37:34.880 --> 00:37:36.159
I integrate it, right?
00:37:36.639 --> 00:37:37.440
I integrate it.
00:37:37.519 --> 00:37:43.920
So I know I'm gonna like start, and part of it is I'm gonna wanna sit in this place of retooling, rethinking.
00:37:44.079 --> 00:37:49.760
And if I can like accept that and move through it more quickly, then that's a win for me.
00:37:49.920 --> 00:37:53.840
Versus like, oh, like if like Ashley, you resonated as being a people pleaser.
00:37:54.320 --> 00:37:58.159
That actually is can be like a wonderfully beautiful thing, right?
00:37:58.320 --> 00:37:59.360
I love the people in my life.
00:37:59.599 --> 00:38:01.280
I receive the rewards of that.
00:38:02.800 --> 00:38:03.679
Don't stop.
00:38:05.199 --> 00:38:06.559
I love gifting.
00:38:07.199 --> 00:38:10.800
So it's it's not about like rewiring the parts of that.
00:38:11.039 --> 00:38:11.760
Own them, right?
00:38:12.000 --> 00:38:15.039
It's about when what is the part where I catch myself, okay.
00:38:15.199 --> 00:38:22.480
Part of my process is I'm gonna wanna overextend or over give or under, you know, I'm I'm not gonna want to speak up for myself.
00:38:22.639 --> 00:38:26.239
So how do I see that as, oh, okay, this is I moved through this process.
00:38:26.400 --> 00:38:27.360
This is now the point.
00:38:27.519 --> 00:38:41.360
I wanna, I wanna change this or say something differently or really investigate it versus because I think when we think about like patterns and burnout, we can also go to this sense of wanting to like, well, I've got to overhaul everything.
00:38:42.400 --> 00:38:45.280
This this is what people I mean, Ashley, I love what you said.
00:38:45.360 --> 00:38:47.360
Like, I just like to not have responsibility.
00:38:47.440 --> 00:38:48.159
I felt that way.
00:38:48.320 --> 00:38:48.880
Holy crap.
00:38:48.960 --> 00:38:55.840
As a corporate exec, I was like, if I could not have the pressure anymore, eject button, I would like eject button, but I couldn't.
00:38:55.920 --> 00:38:57.679
I was the breadwinner, right?
00:38:57.920 --> 00:39:04.320
Um, and then that makes even then it's like this obligation on top of burnout that can also be exhausting.
00:39:04.559 --> 00:39:10.239
Well, and I think too, like we always talk about this age, we're starting to accept who we are.
00:39:10.320 --> 00:39:11.840
So I love how you're saying that too, Ellen.
00:39:11.920 --> 00:39:20.239
Like, you know your your patterns, we want to alter them, but you also have to live through them because I think then you start to feel bad about it or chastise yourself.
00:39:20.480 --> 00:39:22.239
Exactly, and then you can't get out.
00:39:22.480 --> 00:39:23.519
Yeah, that's right.
00:39:23.679 --> 00:39:25.039
That is exactly right.
00:39:25.199 --> 00:39:31.119
I yes, I'm fangirling you because literally that is what people will say, like, I hate this part of me.
00:39:31.280 --> 00:39:32.159
Yeah, rejecting it.
00:39:32.320 --> 00:39:37.440
And the exactly, and the more you reject it, the more like it becomes a whole thing, right?
00:39:37.679 --> 00:39:41.440
Instead of like, actually, how do we just integrate that as part of the process?
00:39:41.599 --> 00:39:48.000
The reason the word process is helpful is because it shows that's a temporary step as you move through something.
00:39:48.480 --> 00:39:50.639
So we're not rejecting it, we're just going, yep.
00:39:50.719 --> 00:39:54.000
And I'll I mean, I'll even say, like, I'm like, oh, here I go again.
00:39:54.159 --> 00:39:54.639
Yeah.
00:39:54.880 --> 00:39:55.440
I love it.
00:39:55.599 --> 00:39:58.000
And how loving that phrase is totally here.
00:39:58.079 --> 00:39:58.880
I am being myself.
00:39:59.039 --> 00:39:59.920
Oh, sensey here.
00:40:01.440 --> 00:40:08.880
And if I do that for two days instead of two weeks this time, then I feel like I'm I'm I'm moving through it versus like I've got to stop doing that.
00:40:09.199 --> 00:40:09.599
Totally.
00:40:09.840 --> 00:40:12.880
I love this kind of like because this also hits on so many levels.
00:40:12.960 --> 00:40:15.519
This conversation on burnout, it's going into self-love.
00:40:15.599 --> 00:40:17.360
Yeah, it's going into self-improvement.
00:40:17.440 --> 00:40:20.559
It's about being kind to ourselves and evolving.
00:40:20.719 --> 00:40:22.719
And I could talk about this for hours actually.
00:40:23.440 --> 00:40:27.599
I think that what what we will do is we will be sharing some information about Ellen.
00:40:27.679 --> 00:40:28.719
So hang with us to the end.
00:40:28.880 --> 00:40:35.519
But before we do that, Ellen, we'd love to just do a light little lightning round with you, get to know you a little bit more.
00:40:35.920 --> 00:40:38.239
So if you had time to prep for these, I don't know.
00:40:38.320 --> 00:40:39.599
If you didn't, it's even better.
00:40:39.679 --> 00:40:40.880
Um we like no prep.
00:40:41.039 --> 00:40:43.760
So I'll kick it off with the first question, then we'll go back and forth.
00:40:43.920 --> 00:40:47.840
So what is your ideal weekend?
00:40:48.000 --> 00:40:52.960
If you could choose what to do and you had no responsibilities, what would that look like?
00:40:54.559 --> 00:40:57.840
Okay, I was like, I should say time with my husband.
00:41:00.960 --> 00:41:01.920
We all should.
00:41:02.239 --> 00:41:03.039
I will, I wouldn't.
00:41:03.280 --> 00:41:03.679
I know.
00:41:04.320 --> 00:41:05.119
Who I adore.
00:41:05.360 --> 00:41:07.280
Who I adore, who's wonderful everywhere.
00:41:07.599 --> 00:41:17.280
But I what I would want to do is I would want to like get a lake house, like a rental lake house, short getaway, and allow my kids to bring their like closest pals.
00:41:18.159 --> 00:41:24.400
Because I'm at that stage where life feels very like my kids are uh two are in high school, one's in middle school.
00:41:24.480 --> 00:41:32.639
And it's like I want the sweet, I feel so happy with like a full house, a full table, the noise, joyful kids, the noise, the chaos.
00:41:32.719 --> 00:41:41.920
Because I'm in that period of recognizing like, you know, there there is, I don't want to be dour about it, but there is this sense of like in a few years, life will look a lot different.
00:41:42.079 --> 00:41:49.760
So it would be it would be like the chaos, and then of course I'd need a week to recover, but but something like that.
00:41:50.000 --> 00:42:01.679
I love that you're like, if I could force my three children with me in a lake house for an entire weekend, because they don't, they want to go to their friends' house, they want to go right, yeah, totally that's why we'd have to bring the friends to us so that we could be the party house.
00:42:02.000 --> 00:42:03.199
I love it, I love it too.
00:42:03.440 --> 00:42:04.239
Yeah, well, I'm coming.
00:42:04.639 --> 00:42:05.119
That'd be it.
00:42:05.440 --> 00:42:08.159
Yeah, I mean, literally, the more the better.
00:42:08.480 --> 00:42:09.679
I make some good snacks.
00:42:09.840 --> 00:42:10.639
She brings the fun.
00:42:10.880 --> 00:42:11.280
Exactly.
00:42:11.599 --> 00:42:12.400
Okay, next question.
00:42:12.719 --> 00:42:13.119
I believe it.
00:42:13.440 --> 00:42:14.880
Who inspires you?
00:42:16.719 --> 00:42:17.920
Who inspires me?
00:42:18.079 --> 00:42:18.400
Okay.
00:42:18.639 --> 00:42:22.000
Um this is okay.
00:42:22.159 --> 00:42:25.440
So here's genuinely who's surprised who inspires me.
00:42:26.159 --> 00:42:29.519
Not the people that are doing like the showy big stuff.
00:42:29.920 --> 00:42:35.280
The people that inspire me are the people that are doing like the quiet, hard work.
00:42:36.000 --> 00:42:42.159
Like who have these sort of conversations, these realizations that they need to change and evolve.
00:42:42.320 --> 00:42:48.960
And it doesn't look flashy, but it looks like I'm gonna consistently, you know, learn more about myself.
00:42:49.119 --> 00:42:55.920
I'm gonna sort of rebuild whatever that looks like for me, my relationships, my life, my parenting, whatever that looks like.
00:42:56.400 --> 00:43:07.760
Um, I know that sounds a little cheesy, but those those types of like people, and I get the joy of like working one-on-one with them regularly, and I'm like, it's just so brave.
00:43:07.920 --> 00:43:10.400
Like quiet work is the bravest work.
00:43:10.559 --> 00:43:16.000
Um and so getting like a live seat for that, um, and it's the hardest.
00:43:16.159 --> 00:43:23.360
It's the hardest stuff because you're really having to like unpack some stuff, but that like truly inspires me for sure.
00:43:23.599 --> 00:43:24.480
Oh, that's beautiful.
00:43:25.599 --> 00:43:26.719
Um, let's see here.
00:43:26.800 --> 00:43:31.119
We'll have two more questions and then we'll highlight some things of how you can keep in touch with you, Ellen.
00:43:31.360 --> 00:43:36.880
So do you have a mantra that you use when maybe your life gets difficult or challenging?
00:43:37.440 --> 00:43:41.199
Is there something that you think I think and it kind of kicks you back into reality?
00:43:42.480 --> 00:43:49.599
Yeah, so one thing that changed my life about 10 years ago was reading this saying, everything's happening for me, not to me.
00:43:51.599 --> 00:43:59.760
And so recognizing, like, you know, that like oh, if if something's hard, I just haven't learned that part yet.
00:44:01.119 --> 00:44:12.480
But but this experience is is is for me in some way to grow, to learn, to evolve, something like that, versus feeling like these things are coming at me.
00:44:12.960 --> 00:44:17.679
So that that was that's how I try to really see see things.
00:44:17.840 --> 00:44:27.840
And um it helps me to feel like I'm part of that like learning experience versus like oh I'm just like being you know drug alone.
00:44:29.199 --> 00:44:29.440
Yeah, yeah.
00:44:29.599 --> 00:44:31.280
It's forging your path, right?
00:44:31.440 --> 00:44:35.840
In a sense, of just it's less victimy of like why, right?
00:44:36.000 --> 00:44:37.119
And it's more about how.
00:44:37.280 --> 00:44:40.159
Like this is happening, so how is this going to impact me?
00:44:40.320 --> 00:44:41.679
How can I go through this, right?
00:44:42.079 --> 00:44:43.119
I love I love that reason.
00:44:43.280 --> 00:44:45.679
And how can I turn it into something positive, right?
00:44:45.840 --> 00:44:47.119
And own it, not rejecting it.
00:44:47.360 --> 00:44:51.679
Like I just, and like if something's hard, I just have I haven't learned that thing yet.
00:44:51.840 --> 00:44:56.960
Like, there's a component of like, I just I want to recognize, like, it doesn't mean I'm broken or whatever.
00:44:57.039 --> 00:44:59.039
It's like, oh, I haven't been through this experience yet.
00:44:59.119 --> 00:45:00.400
Like, how am I gonna navigate this?
00:45:00.719 --> 00:45:01.119
I love it.
00:45:01.280 --> 00:45:01.599
Same.
00:45:01.679 --> 00:45:01.760
Okay.
00:45:02.079 --> 00:45:06.400
Because I'd love to say I always spelled that, you know, and that like inspired and altruistic.
00:45:06.480 --> 00:45:07.760
That's usually after a freak out.
00:45:08.239 --> 00:45:08.719
Of course.
00:45:09.039 --> 00:45:10.400
You gotta go play the breakdown.
00:45:10.559 --> 00:45:12.639
Wait, what are what are the kids saying now?
00:45:12.800 --> 00:45:13.199
A crash out?
00:45:13.440 --> 00:45:14.079
Is that what it is?
00:45:14.400 --> 00:45:15.440
A crash, a crash out?
00:45:15.679 --> 00:45:15.760
Yes.
00:45:16.079 --> 00:45:16.960
I was like, what's a crash?
00:45:17.360 --> 00:45:18.079
You're so cool.
00:45:18.239 --> 00:45:21.119
I mean, my hairdresser said it to me, and I was like, I don't even know what that is.
00:45:21.760 --> 00:45:22.159
Girl, I know.
00:45:22.239 --> 00:45:22.800
Total crash out.
00:45:23.280 --> 00:45:23.840
Total crash out.
00:45:24.000 --> 00:45:24.480
Yeah, I know.
00:45:24.719 --> 00:45:24.960
All right.
00:45:25.039 --> 00:45:26.239
Well, last question.
00:45:26.400 --> 00:45:31.679
What's one piece of advice you would have for someone who is experiencing burnout right now?
00:45:33.920 --> 00:45:38.000
The biggest piece of advice is do not overhaul your whole life.
00:45:38.159 --> 00:45:41.840
Like, do not make a dramatic decision.
00:45:42.079 --> 00:45:45.119
Um, because it and because true burnout, right?
00:45:45.199 --> 00:45:50.800
There's lots, people use burnout in very different ways, but true burnout is really a nervous system depletion.
00:45:51.599 --> 00:46:03.840
And to do something big and, you know, a major change is adding more uncertainty, more instability, you know, that it which is exactly what your your nervous system is already struggling with.
00:46:04.559 --> 00:46:10.400
And so I think, you know, that's and that's our tendency to do something huge to fix it.
00:46:10.559 --> 00:46:13.679
And this is where I really think we need to kind of go the opposite way.
00:46:13.840 --> 00:46:22.159
What can I stabilize so that I can then rebuild my own sort of like uh capacity back up and shift?
00:46:22.239 --> 00:46:23.840
So that that's the big thing I would say.
00:46:24.079 --> 00:46:34.000
I love that shift of thinking of stabilizing because I think in those times of chaos and unknown, having that stable point will keep you grounded.
00:46:34.159 --> 00:46:35.760
It's like throw a little water on the fire.
00:46:36.000 --> 00:46:39.599
Like don't, don't like, yeah, like sprinkle it, like get it down to a smolder.
00:46:40.239 --> 00:46:46.480
You can get you can get bangs, but don't break up bangs or don't don't shave the side of your head.
00:46:46.639 --> 00:46:46.960
No.
00:46:47.119 --> 00:46:48.559
Yeah, don't get bangs, right?
00:46:48.719 --> 00:46:50.000
Don't get bangs, yeah.
00:46:50.239 --> 00:46:57.119
And a lot of I will say obviously there are workplaces that really are like you cannot it, they're not conducive to it.
00:46:57.199 --> 00:46:57.920
Yeah, right, right.
00:46:58.159 --> 00:47:02.400
So there are always exceptions where people really do have to make some big changes.
00:47:02.639 --> 00:47:07.920
But I think like the the common language right now is just quit and start a start your own business or something.
00:47:08.079 --> 00:47:08.239
Yeah.
00:47:08.400 --> 00:47:09.199
And that's true.
00:47:09.519 --> 00:47:16.239
Like there's a level of like creative capacity and mental reserves, and like you need to do that.
00:47:16.320 --> 00:47:19.679
And so layering on more pressure, more urgency to fix it.
00:47:20.400 --> 00:47:21.360
Trust me on that.
00:47:21.519 --> 00:47:26.239
That is that's that's not a good not the way not the timing, not the timing for that.
00:47:26.320 --> 00:47:31.199
So Ellen, I think you've really allowed us all to think about burnout in a very different way.
00:47:31.519 --> 00:47:33.840
And I love this whole conversation.
00:47:34.000 --> 00:47:41.119
I think for any of our listeners out there that really found this to be evolving for them in terms of how they're looking at burnout.
00:47:41.280 --> 00:47:50.559
If you want to have more insights from Ellen, I highly, high, highly encourage each of you to find Ellen on Instagram at Hey Ellen Meyer.
00:47:50.960 --> 00:48:05.119
And also we will put in the show notes links to your website with your coaching site, as well as this personal pattern quiz, which spoiler alert, Ashley and I took right before this call, and it felt like a horoscope, and I felt called out.
00:48:06.159 --> 00:48:07.039
I was very called out.
00:48:07.280 --> 00:48:09.199
I was like, does it-spying on you?
00:48:09.760 --> 00:48:10.079
I know.
00:48:10.320 --> 00:48:12.480
I'm an over I'm the overthinking spiral.
00:48:12.559 --> 00:48:12.960
Could you tell?
00:48:13.119 --> 00:48:19.440
Um I'm the I'm the hustle trap, and I was like, uh-oh, felt really called out.
00:48:19.599 --> 00:48:19.920
Yeah.
00:48:20.239 --> 00:48:20.559
Okay.
00:48:20.800 --> 00:48:21.039
Okay.
00:48:21.119 --> 00:48:22.960
The approval anchor is a big one too.
00:48:24.400 --> 00:48:25.679
I was high on that.
00:48:25.920 --> 00:48:26.239
Yeah.
00:48:26.639 --> 00:48:30.159
But I need to be like, yeah, told I'm pretty and say like all of those things.
00:48:30.320 --> 00:48:33.119
But anyway, Ellen, this has been a complete joy.
00:48:33.280 --> 00:48:36.480
We're so, so grateful for you to spend time with bubbles and breakdowns.
00:48:36.639 --> 00:48:42.400
And for our listeners, uh, please remember that after every breakdown, don't forget the bubbles.
00:48:42.480 --> 00:48:47.440
If you're loving us, please join us and listen on Spotify, Apple Podcasts, wherever you get your podcasts.
00:48:47.679 --> 00:48:49.920
Check out our Instagram and follow Ellen.
00:48:50.079 --> 00:48:52.000
We have had such a great conversation.
00:48:52.159 --> 00:48:53.360
Um, we'll catch you next time.