Nancy Guthrie: the celebration months before disappearance and why sheriff insists she was kidnapped

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Hey guys,
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uh,
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thanks so much for checking out my show.
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As always,
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I,
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I really,
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really appreciate everybody for watching my channel.
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I appreciate everybody who has,
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uh,
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subscribed to my channel and been watching my videos.
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Uh,
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a lot to get to in this episode when it comes to the
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Nancy Guthrie
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investigation.
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First of all,
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uh,
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and this is something new.
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Um,
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I am going to talk to in this episode one of the first reporters who was on the scene
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when Nancy Guthrie went missing,
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and this is long before any of the national
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reporters like me arrived.
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Some of the things he noticed.
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Are interesting and things I haven't heard before
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and also
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this same reporter
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was at
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the restaurant months earlier
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when Savannah Guthrie was there
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with
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her mother
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for the Today Show segment at El Charro,
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the,
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the Mexican restaurant in
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um.
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In Tucson,
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he was also there and he got video of them there which is interesting,
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which I'm gonna show you in this episode
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from inside the restaurant and if if you look back
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at some of my past episodes you'll see
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why I'm interested in all of this because there's
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some theories out there that I've heard from retired
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FBI profilers that if it was a stalker or something
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they may have been around at some of these previous
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events when Savannah was in town with her mom.
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So
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I'm gonna get into that.
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You're gonna hear from him.
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You're gonna see the new video
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also Sheriff Nanos did a.
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Um,
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a new interview on the radio.
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I'm gonna go over everything new he said,
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and there were a couple of new interesting things
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that he did say about the DNA,
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about how they've been sending detectives out to
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some of these DNA labs in other states,
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um,
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and,
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um,
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why he believes it's still not a cold case.
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So I'll get to that.
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Also,
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Maureen O'Connell,
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you guys know how much I love Maureen,
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a retired FBI agent Maureen O'Connell.
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I hadn't seen her for a while.
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I actually went to her house and interviewed her.
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She,
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she lives in California.
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I was out in California.
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We met up.
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I went over some of these new things with her.
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She has a fascinating take as always on on a lot of it,
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so you'll hear from Maureen in this episode.
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And then also I'm talking to a cold case expert
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who's actually developed
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some software that helps with cold cases,
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uh,
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and he he used that software.
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In the Nancy Guthrie case with the information that he
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has and kind of showed me how it works,
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which was really interesting,
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so I'm gonna get to all of that in this episode of Brian Enson Investigates.
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Hey guys,
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all right,
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so let me get to the latest on everything that I have
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learned with the Nancy Guthrie case since I've done my last episode,
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which has been,
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I think,
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a couple of weeks at this point.
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First of all,
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um.
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Sheriff Nanos was on the Buckmaster show in Tucson,
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Arizona.
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I took some notes here,
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uh,
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and it's always interesting when he's on this radio show because I
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think he's kind of like maybe long time friends with the host.
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It's a local Tucson,
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Arizona radio show
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and he just seems a little more open when he talks,
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not like a
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kind of traditional news interview where maybe he has his guard up a little bit,
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so I'm always,
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I listen to every little word because sometimes some new details come out.
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So he was asked,
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do you think this case will be solved?
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He said,
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I do,
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uh,
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said that he gets asked all the time if it's a cold case or not,
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and he said he does not consider it to be a cold case.
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Brought up that there's no statute of limitations when it comes to murder,
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that he's constantly going through all the evidence,
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that it's not done
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again,
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that the case is not cold,
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that they just this
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last week,
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he said
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sent a team of investigators to the lab in Florida,
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the DNA lab that they've been using,
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which I'm going to talk more about
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this with Maureen in a little bit.
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Said he's also working with an FBI lab in Kansas and in San Francisco,
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so that's new.
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We knew that they were working with the FBI lab in Florida and Quantico,
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uh,
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but apparently there's also an FBI lab in
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Kansas and San Francisco that they are using,
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and he said we are hopeful one day soon
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they can extrapolate DNA in a different way.
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We know we have DNA and this part's important.
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We know it has not been eliminated by all the people.
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That we have put in that home,
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it's mixed,
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so basically what he's saying is that they,
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the DNA they have,
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they've been able to go and get samples from everybody who's been in Nancy's home,
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friends,
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family,
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workers,
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and it seems that they've.
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Tested the DNA they found up against those people and it's not a match so
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this DNA could be the suspect,
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someone who was not typically in Nancy Guthrie's home.
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And uh the fact that they're working with these other labs I think
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is is a is a good sign and again Maureen's gonna explain this,
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but
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there's obviously something there for them to still
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work with or they wouldn't be traveling to these
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other labs in Florida and San Francisco and
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he wouldn't be talking about it I don't think
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he said my theory is like everybody we know certain things
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we know she was kidnapped from that home we believe she was alive when she left.
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It
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was clear that he believes she did not die in the house,
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uh,
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and he said,
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so that's what they know.
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He said after that it turns into speculation.
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They just know
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that she was in her home in the bed,
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woken up and removed from the home,
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but beyond that they don't,
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it's still speculation,
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um,
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which is kind of shocking.
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I mean all these months later
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they still don't know much more,
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but he,
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he was clear that he believes that she was alive when she was taken from the house,
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which is interesting.
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Um,
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said that they're talking to people all over the
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country again that he believes it'll be solved.
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They're working with a lot of people with a lot of experience.
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It was like a 15 minute interview on the radio,
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but those were kind of the basics,
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so I wanted to
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make sure you guys knew that
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in terms of what I was telling you in the setup,
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um,
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this reporter,
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his name is Andrew Christensen,
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so he worked for a local TV station in Tucson.
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Now he works in Phoenix,
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but I was interested in talking to him because he was one of the first people
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to get to the scene after Nancy Guthrie went missing,
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but he was also at El Charro Restaurant,
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which was featured in that
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Savannah goes home segment on Today Show that aired several months before.
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Nancy went missing
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when Savannah Guthrie and Nancy Guthrie went to the restaurant.
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Andrew,
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who you're gonna hear from in a second,
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was there
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at the restaurant.
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You can see this picture that he took with Savannah Guthrie outside.
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I also wanna play you guys this
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this video from inside that he took of Savannah and Nancy,
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um,
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and,
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uh,
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again this was just a couple months before Nancy went missing.
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Yes.
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We have both been very busy at the time,
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but I'm glad to be here.
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I margarita.
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Cheers.
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Love you.
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That's good.
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You should get the prickly margarita.
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Right.
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Just kind of made me sad seeing that,
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um.
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Just,
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I don't know,
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when you see Nancy
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there and they're so happy,
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and
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if
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any of them or Savannah,
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and if anyone only knew what was gonna happen.
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Just months later,
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um,
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but it's interesting
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looking back at these videos
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again because we've had FBI profilers on the show,
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retired FBI profilers who have said,
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you know,
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all this is important if it was a Savannah Guthrie stalker,
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if it was someone local,
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maybe they were at one of these events,
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uh,
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so just going back and talking about these events and what it
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was like there I think is important and that's one of the reasons
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I want you guys to hear my full conversation with.
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Andrew Christensen,
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again,
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the reporter
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who
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was one of the first
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that night on the scene when Nancy Guthrie went missing
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and then also was at that restaurant.
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Hey,
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Andrew,
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thank you so much for taking the time to talk with me.
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Really appreciate it.
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I was interested in talking to you just because
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you were one of the first people on the scene
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when Nancy Guthrie vanished.
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And then also we had been looking into this trip
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that Savannah made,
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you know,
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to do the Today Show segment with her mom,
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and you were also there for that.
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So I'm really interested to talk to you.
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I wanted to start off talking about that,
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the,
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when she came to um
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to Tucson.
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Did you just see her at the restaurant or kind of walk me through like what,
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what happened there?
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Yeah,
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so I know the restaurant owner.
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He owns several charro restaurants across Tucson,
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so me and him are friends.
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So he invited me,
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knowing that Savannah was coming,
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and I'm also a news reporter,
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so
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he invited me to that.
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Um,
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I didn't know her mom was going to be there,
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her sister was also there,
277
00:08:19.209 --> 00:08:21.730
but it was really nice to meet her family and meet Savannah.
278
00:08:21.850 --> 00:08:22.809
She's a really,
279
00:08:22.929 --> 00:08:24.239
really nice person.
280
00:08:24.559 --> 00:08:26.920
And I got to know a little bit more about her.
281
00:08:27.049 --> 00:08:31.130
I didn't know that she interned at my previous news station KA 9.
282
00:08:31.410 --> 00:08:33.289
So we bonded over things like that,
283
00:08:33.409 --> 00:08:35.289
and she's from Tucson,
284
00:08:35.409 --> 00:08:35.830
so
285
00:08:36.169 --> 00:08:40.869
her getting her start in Tucson really kind of spoke to me because
286
00:08:41.119 --> 00:08:43.090
as a news reporter formerly in Tucson,
287
00:08:43.169 --> 00:08:44.469
I was excited to see
288
00:08:44.929 --> 00:08:47.700
what she did and all the accomplishments that she had.
289
00:08:48.250 --> 00:08:48.929
Was there,
290
00:08:49.090 --> 00:08:49.960
what was the vibe like?
291
00:08:50.010 --> 00:08:50.159
Like,
292
00:08:50.169 --> 00:08:52.030
were there a lot of other people around,
293
00:08:52.289 --> 00:08:52.679
um,
294
00:08:52.809 --> 00:08:54.150
like they wanted to see her?
295
00:08:55.140 --> 00:08:58.059
So there was the mayor and then people that worked
296
00:08:58.059 --> 00:09:01.080
for the mayor and several people from the county.
297
00:09:01.340 --> 00:09:01.650
Um,
298
00:09:01.700 --> 00:09:03.640
there were people that
299
00:09:03.979 --> 00:09:06.609
from Tucson that usually go to a lot of events.
300
00:09:06.700 --> 00:09:07.119
So,
301
00:09:07.219 --> 00:09:08.940
a lot of people that were there,
302
00:09:09.020 --> 00:09:09.299
um,
303
00:09:09.380 --> 00:09:11.650
were kind of like in this circle of like,
304
00:09:11.700 --> 00:09:11.869
we
305
00:09:12.075 --> 00:09:12.734
Tucson and,
306
00:09:12.854 --> 00:09:16.294
and Savannah is that really big epitome of of
307
00:09:16.515 --> 00:09:17.994
what Tucson can accomplish.
308
00:09:18.125 --> 00:09:18.494
So,
309
00:09:18.664 --> 00:09:21.275
there was kind of a smaller group of people,
310
00:09:21.354 --> 00:09:23.114
maybe about 15 people,
311
00:09:23.315 --> 00:09:23.854
but
312
00:09:24.034 --> 00:09:26.854
um definitely spoke to all aspects of Tucson.
313
00:09:27.195 --> 00:09:28.734
Did you know she was from Tucson?
314
00:09:30.130 --> 00:09:31.479
I didn't know,
315
00:09:31.489 --> 00:09:31.969
like
316
00:09:32.190 --> 00:09:33.250
in years past,
317
00:09:33.349 --> 00:09:34.630
but I had gotten to know
318
00:09:35.119 --> 00:09:35.950
uh Tucson,
319
00:09:36.010 --> 00:09:38.330
and then so I had heard her name thrown out there.
320
00:09:38.489 --> 00:09:40.950
She had worked at KVOA which was
321
00:09:41.169 --> 00:09:42.650
one of the other stations in Tucson.
322
00:09:42.770 --> 00:09:43.030
So
323
00:09:43.289 --> 00:09:44.270
I had known,
324
00:09:44.450 --> 00:09:44.830
not
325
00:09:44.989 --> 00:09:45.450
forever,
326
00:09:45.530 --> 00:09:45.969
but
327
00:09:46.210 --> 00:09:47.169
kind of recently too,
328
00:09:47.250 --> 00:09:48.090
when I met her.
329
00:09:48.450 --> 00:09:48.830
Cool.
330
00:09:49.049 --> 00:09:50.429
Did you get to meet her mom at all?
331
00:09:51.190 --> 00:09:51.530
Yeah,
332
00:09:51.669 --> 00:09:52.530
so I got to meet
333
00:09:52.869 --> 00:09:53.309
Nancy.
334
00:09:53.390 --> 00:09:54.570
She was a really nice lady.
335
00:09:54.710 --> 00:09:57.450
She really spoke to Savannah's accomplishments,
336
00:09:57.460 --> 00:09:57.909
and
337
00:09:58.150 --> 00:10:00.030
one thing that really struck me when I was
338
00:10:00.030 --> 00:10:02.669
watching the Today Show being filmed is that she,
339
00:10:02.989 --> 00:10:03.690
Savannah kept saying,
340
00:10:03.710 --> 00:10:04.070
I love you,
341
00:10:04.109 --> 00:10:04.429
mom,
342
00:10:04.580 --> 00:10:05.669
and then her sister was there too,
343
00:10:05.789 --> 00:10:06.190
so she said,
344
00:10:06.575 --> 00:10:08.015
I love you to her sister as well.
345
00:10:08.174 --> 00:10:09.354
So you could really feel
346
00:10:10.335 --> 00:10:13.015
the love that that family had for each other.
347
00:10:13.135 --> 00:10:13.715
And
348
00:10:14.174 --> 00:10:17.515
so that's kind of what struck a chord when I heard about what happened to Nancy.
349
00:10:17.775 --> 00:10:21.515
It kind of made it a little more personal when it came to reporting on it.
350
00:10:22.015 --> 00:10:23.575
So her mom was friendly and like you guys,
351
00:10:23.655 --> 00:10:25.114
did you guys get to chat at all?
352
00:10:25.729 --> 00:10:27.049
We did talk a little bit,
353
00:10:27.210 --> 00:10:28.039
not too much.
354
00:10:28.169 --> 00:10:30.849
We got to talk about Savannah's accomplishments.
355
00:10:30.969 --> 00:10:31.390
So
356
00:10:31.690 --> 00:10:32.400
I did mention like,
357
00:10:32.450 --> 00:10:32.570
hey,
358
00:10:32.609 --> 00:10:36.010
I didn't know that she interned at my previous station K on Nine News.
359
00:10:36.250 --> 00:10:36.390
Um,
360
00:10:36.409 --> 00:10:37.609
I'm also at that station,
361
00:10:37.719 --> 00:10:39.169
so that's something that we talked about.
362
00:10:39.289 --> 00:10:39.830
Um,
363
00:10:40.010 --> 00:10:40.239
it was,
364
00:10:40.289 --> 00:10:41.280
it was very brief,
365
00:10:41.369 --> 00:10:42.440
but she was very nice.
366
00:10:42.690 --> 00:10:42.960
Cool.
367
00:10:43.130 --> 00:10:44.010
Did you notice,
368
00:10:44.179 --> 00:10:45.090
like looking back now,
369
00:10:45.210 --> 00:10:46.349
knowing what happened,
370
00:10:47.130 --> 00:10:49.570
was there anyone strange around or anything that kind
371
00:10:49.570 --> 00:10:52.390
of like strikes you as odd during that time?
372
00:10:53.130 --> 00:10:53.289
No,
373
00:10:53.369 --> 00:10:54.090
definitely not.
374
00:10:54.289 --> 00:10:55.719
A lot of people have been questioning,
375
00:10:55.789 --> 00:10:57.200
been talking about like her,
376
00:10:57.289 --> 00:10:58.190
her physical condition,
377
00:10:58.369 --> 00:10:58.390
or,
378
00:10:58.489 --> 00:10:58.570
you know,
379
00:10:58.640 --> 00:10:59.369
she's an older lady.
380
00:10:59.479 --> 00:11:00.650
Should you have been living alone?
381
00:11:00.770 --> 00:11:02.390
Could someone have gotten her out of the house easily,
382
00:11:02.479 --> 00:11:03.440
her mental condition.
383
00:11:03.650 --> 00:11:06.150
You actually met her just a couple months before.
384
00:11:06.690 --> 00:11:07.690
Did you notice anything?
385
00:11:07.770 --> 00:11:08.010
Did you,
386
00:11:08.119 --> 00:11:09.119
did you think she was with it?
387
00:11:09.210 --> 00:11:10.849
Were you able to see how she moved around,
388
00:11:10.890 --> 00:11:11.690
that kind of thing?
389
00:11:12.590 --> 00:11:12.789
Yeah,
390
00:11:12.869 --> 00:11:13.520
she looked great.
391
00:11:13.590 --> 00:11:14.030
I mean,
392
00:11:14.109 --> 00:11:15.070
everywhere Savannah went,
393
00:11:15.150 --> 00:11:15.630
she went,
394
00:11:15.909 --> 00:11:18.700
and she did not need any help walking or didn't
395
00:11:18.700 --> 00:11:21.020
need any help sitting down or anything like that.
396
00:11:21.150 --> 00:11:21.299
Uh,
397
00:11:21.309 --> 00:11:22.890
I think she looked great.
398
00:11:23.169 --> 00:11:24.090
When you spoke with her,
399
00:11:24.390 --> 00:11:24.520
did,
400
00:11:24.630 --> 00:11:26.049
did she seem with it mentally?
401
00:11:27.099 --> 00:11:27.309
Yeah,
402
00:11:27.469 --> 00:11:27.830
she did.
403
00:11:27.909 --> 00:11:28.140
Um,
404
00:11:28.190 --> 00:11:29.429
she talked to me very well.
405
00:11:29.549 --> 00:11:29.780
Um,
406
00:11:29.789 --> 00:11:30.630
I talked to her,
407
00:11:30.900 --> 00:11:31.929
like I said about
408
00:11:32.590 --> 00:11:34.729
Savannah interning at my old news station.
409
00:11:34.869 --> 00:11:35.390
So we,
410
00:11:35.469 --> 00:11:37.690
we definitely had that back and forth conversation.
411
00:11:37.830 --> 00:11:38.190
She was,
412
00:11:38.309 --> 00:11:39.510
she seemed fine and,
413
00:11:39.549 --> 00:11:41.099
and she was excited to be there and,
414
00:11:41.309 --> 00:11:41.460
you know,
415
00:11:41.510 --> 00:11:43.210
you could see that on the Today Show,
416
00:11:43.549 --> 00:11:44.000
uh,
417
00:11:44.140 --> 00:11:44.929
on TV.
418
00:11:45.270 --> 00:11:45.929
OK.
419
00:11:46.289 --> 00:11:46.770
Um,
420
00:11:46.909 --> 00:11:48.260
and so fast forward,
421
00:11:48.270 --> 00:11:49.849
I guess now to
422
00:11:50.270 --> 00:11:52.510
what happened that weekend when you found out,
423
00:11:52.669 --> 00:11:55.150
cause I think I heard and started hearing about it on Sunday.
424
00:11:55.710 --> 00:11:58.169
I'm flew to Tucson on Sunday.
425
00:11:58.750 --> 00:11:58.869
What,
426
00:11:58.969 --> 00:11:59.179
like,
427
00:11:59.349 --> 00:12:00.270
take me back to that time,
428
00:12:00.309 --> 00:12:01.210
like when did you first
429
00:12:01.830 --> 00:12:03.229
hear that something was going on?
430
00:12:04.309 --> 00:12:08.710
So I heard maybe around like 7 o'clock at night that Sunday,
431
00:12:08.830 --> 00:12:10.169
and we had gotten an email,
432
00:12:10.429 --> 00:12:10.909
um,
433
00:12:11.109 --> 00:12:13.900
we inquired because I worked for KA 9 News,
434
00:12:13.909 --> 00:12:14.270
and
435
00:12:14.530 --> 00:12:16.390
so we were inquiring about a missing person.
436
00:12:16.500 --> 00:12:19.270
There was a rumor at the time saying that it was Nancy Guthrie,
437
00:12:19.390 --> 00:12:20.450
Savannah's mom,
438
00:12:20.909 --> 00:12:21.609
and
439
00:12:21.869 --> 00:12:23.489
I believe they put out like a missing
440
00:12:23.700 --> 00:12:25.489
persons poster,
441
00:12:25.869 --> 00:12:26.270
uh,
442
00:12:26.349 --> 00:12:28.049
and I was able to match
443
00:12:28.270 --> 00:12:32.359
the picture because I had videos of Nancy from a few months before that.
444
00:12:32.719 --> 00:12:34.099
So I was able to say,
445
00:12:34.109 --> 00:12:34.349
yes,
446
00:12:34.469 --> 00:12:35.030
that's her,
447
00:12:35.130 --> 00:12:37.489
that's definitely her that they're looking for.
448
00:12:37.590 --> 00:12:38.760
So at the time,
449
00:12:38.989 --> 00:12:40.400
they were just saying she was missing.
450
00:12:40.510 --> 00:12:40.659
Uh,
451
00:12:40.710 --> 00:12:41.109
there was,
452
00:12:41.349 --> 00:12:43.270
it was kind of a little bit of a smaller case,
453
00:12:43.359 --> 00:12:43.729
but
454
00:12:43.880 --> 00:12:46.950
we knew it had the possibility of blowing up into a bigger one.
455
00:12:47.549 --> 00:12:49.049
so that night,
456
00:12:49.309 --> 00:12:51.309
I went to the neighborhood where it happened.
457
00:12:51.359 --> 00:12:52.809
It's a very dark neighborhood,
458
00:12:52.869 --> 00:12:53.150
um,
459
00:12:53.299 --> 00:12:55.229
so I had a little bit of trouble navigating through.
460
00:12:56.020 --> 00:12:56.640
This Sunday night,
461
00:12:56.989 --> 00:12:57.010
yeah,
462
00:12:57.169 --> 00:12:57.330
Sunday,
463
00:12:57.469 --> 00:12:58.349
February 1st,
464
00:12:58.890 --> 00:12:59.440
um,
465
00:12:59.690 --> 00:13:01.909
so it's a little bit of a darker neighborhood.
466
00:13:02.530 --> 00:13:03.869
Go out to the scene.
467
00:13:04.330 --> 00:13:05.590
There weren't that many
468
00:13:06.130 --> 00:13:08.039
police lights or deputy lights,
469
00:13:08.140 --> 00:13:08.289
uh,
470
00:13:08.409 --> 00:13:09.289
so it was very,
471
00:13:09.450 --> 00:13:10.590
very dark,
472
00:13:11.010 --> 00:13:13.210
and the sheriff was on scene,
473
00:13:13.369 --> 00:13:14.469
Sheriff Chris Nanos,
474
00:13:14.690 --> 00:13:18.109
which is not typical of a crime scene
475
00:13:18.210 --> 00:13:18.539
at the time,
476
00:13:18.570 --> 00:13:19.530
they weren't calling it a crime.
477
00:13:19.609 --> 00:13:20.830
She was just a missing person.
478
00:13:21.289 --> 00:13:21.500
Um,
479
00:13:21.539 --> 00:13:25.000
but it's not very typical for the sheriff to come out on
480
00:13:25.219 --> 00:13:27.039
a missing person case,
481
00:13:27.099 --> 00:13:27.460
um,
482
00:13:27.619 --> 00:13:29.539
but I think that's what kind of struck the chord was like,
483
00:13:29.640 --> 00:13:29.849
wow,
484
00:13:29.900 --> 00:13:30.049
this,
485
00:13:30.099 --> 00:13:31.119
this is probably bigger than,
486
00:13:31.489 --> 00:13:32.820
than they're really saying.
487
00:13:33.580 --> 00:13:35.969
So you knew when you went out there that it was Nancy,
488
00:13:36.020 --> 00:13:37.530
because you had the photos,
489
00:13:37.780 --> 00:13:40.530
you were able to kind of cross reference since you had met her.
490
00:13:41.599 --> 00:13:42.000
Yeah,
491
00:13:42.130 --> 00:13:42.729
I did.
492
00:13:42.809 --> 00:13:43.000
Um,
493
00:13:43.010 --> 00:13:45.169
I had to actually ask the sheriff,
494
00:13:45.330 --> 00:13:45.349
are,
495
00:13:45.369 --> 00:13:45.650
are we,
496
00:13:45.750 --> 00:13:47.169
is this Savannah Guthrie's mom,
497
00:13:47.289 --> 00:13:48.229
Nancy Guthrie?
498
00:13:48.289 --> 00:13:48.710
Um,
499
00:13:48.890 --> 00:13:51.190
we didn't want to take any chances and say it was her without
500
00:13:51.530 --> 00:13:51.919
confirming it,
501
00:13:51.979 --> 00:13:52.250
but yes,
502
00:13:52.330 --> 00:13:52.969
I did ask,
503
00:13:53.000 --> 00:13:53.989
and then he said yes.
504
00:13:55.099 --> 00:13:57.679
What was the scene like out there when you first got there?
505
00:13:58.580 --> 00:13:58.950
Like I said,
506
00:13:58.989 --> 00:14:02.010
it was a little more different because there weren't
507
00:14:02.229 --> 00:14:04.849
that many deputy or police lights on.
508
00:14:05.179 --> 00:14:06.809
It was a really dark neighborhood.
509
00:14:06.950 --> 00:14:07.570
So
510
00:14:07.710 --> 00:14:08.869
when I got out there,
511
00:14:08.979 --> 00:14:09.150
um,
512
00:14:09.229 --> 00:14:11.820
there wasn't even caution or the police tape,
513
00:14:11.869 --> 00:14:12.469
excuse me,
514
00:14:12.549 --> 00:14:12.969
um,
515
00:14:13.150 --> 00:14:16.590
so it was a little different of a scene than you would traditionally see.
516
00:14:16.630 --> 00:14:17.809
I've seen a lot of scenes
517
00:14:17.989 --> 00:14:19.039
being a news reporter,
518
00:14:19.169 --> 00:14:19.609
so
519
00:14:20.150 --> 00:14:23.690
it was different in that way that it was darker,
520
00:14:23.869 --> 00:14:24.960
there weren't those lights,
521
00:14:24.989 --> 00:14:28.309
and then there was also not any police tape up.
522
00:14:29.190 --> 00:14:30.890
Were there a lot of deputies out there?
523
00:14:32.809 --> 00:14:34.099
There were a good amount.
524
00:14:34.210 --> 00:14:35.409
I would say there was,
525
00:14:35.609 --> 00:14:36.890
there would be the same amount as a
526
00:14:36.890 --> 00:14:39.840
traditional missing person scene or a crime scene.
527
00:14:40.330 --> 00:14:42.250
Like how many would you say when you got there?
528
00:14:42.650 --> 00:14:47.750
Like was it a big scene or like a it's hard to tell because it was so dark.
529
00:14:48.049 --> 00:14:48.789
Um,
530
00:14:49.210 --> 00:14:50.630
I know I did,
531
00:14:50.929 --> 00:14:53.229
they were on either side of both sides of the street,
532
00:14:53.489 --> 00:14:54.030
so.
533
00:14:54.820 --> 00:14:56.460
I can't really put a number to it,
534
00:14:56.539 --> 00:14:58.820
but there was definitely like a good amount.
535
00:14:59.950 --> 00:15:00.849
Did you
536
00:15:01.469 --> 00:15:02.539
get the sense that,
537
00:15:02.669 --> 00:15:02.830
like,
538
00:15:02.849 --> 00:15:04.830
what did you think at first based on what they were saying?
539
00:15:04.869 --> 00:15:05.030
Like,
540
00:15:05.109 --> 00:15:07.669
did you think she wandered off or like what was,
541
00:15:07.789 --> 00:15:09.770
I guess the vibe when you first got there?
542
00:15:11.419 --> 00:15:11.580
Well,
543
00:15:11.619 --> 00:15:12.869
when I first got there,
544
00:15:12.979 --> 00:15:15.780
I was obviously sad because I hadn't met her.
545
00:15:15.940 --> 00:15:16.280
So
546
00:15:16.820 --> 00:15:19.359
even to hear that she was missing was
547
00:15:19.539 --> 00:15:21.619
really sad because I never would have thought that I would
548
00:15:21.619 --> 00:15:24.760
be reporting on someone that I had met that went missing.
549
00:15:25.270 --> 00:15:26.119
And
550
00:15:27.020 --> 00:15:32.919
I feel like there was this sense that this is going to be a bigger case,
551
00:15:33.219 --> 00:15:33.760
but
552
00:15:34.539 --> 00:15:37.000
right now we're still piecing together information,
553
00:15:37.340 --> 00:15:40.400
and I think that's what the sheriff's department was doing as well.
554
00:15:40.789 --> 00:15:41.690
Um,
555
00:15:41.969 --> 00:15:44.289
it was a really quiet scene.
556
00:15:44.409 --> 00:15:46.190
It's a quiet neighborhood.
557
00:15:46.530 --> 00:15:47.229
Um,
558
00:15:48.049 --> 00:15:50.409
their houses are on bigger plots of land,
559
00:15:50.570 --> 00:15:54.309
so they're a little more spread apart than other houses in Tucson.
560
00:15:54.969 --> 00:15:55.390
So,
561
00:15:55.450 --> 00:15:56.760
with that being said,
562
00:15:57.010 --> 00:16:01.359
there weren't like neighbors out there trying to look to see what was happening.
563
00:16:01.609 --> 00:16:04.229
Usually there is when it comes to
564
00:16:04.830 --> 00:16:07.510
Police or deputies being in your neighborhood,
565
00:16:07.630 --> 00:16:08.890
and I see that all the time.
566
00:16:09.109 --> 00:16:11.650
So there was definitely a quieter sense
567
00:16:11.909 --> 00:16:12.250
than
568
00:16:12.429 --> 00:16:14.669
other parts in Tucson that I had reported in.
569
00:16:15.590 --> 00:16:17.590
Was there any searching going on?
570
00:16:19.049 --> 00:16:21.099
There was searching going on,
571
00:16:21.179 --> 00:16:22.159
but like I said,
572
00:16:22.260 --> 00:16:23.250
it was dark,
573
00:16:23.419 --> 00:16:25.719
so you couldn't really see
574
00:16:26.059 --> 00:16:27.599
past your immediate
575
00:16:28.059 --> 00:16:28.940
vision right there,
576
00:16:29.020 --> 00:16:29.359
the,
577
00:16:29.500 --> 00:16:31.000
the site that you have right there.
578
00:16:31.340 --> 00:16:31.940
Uh,
579
00:16:32.190 --> 00:16:34.119
I know the next day is when I could,
580
00:16:34.659 --> 00:16:34.780
yes,
581
00:16:35.179 --> 00:16:37.679
I could see people searching and they were searching.
582
00:16:37.940 --> 00:16:39.820
I believe they were that first night.
583
00:16:39.859 --> 00:16:41.039
It just wasn't,
584
00:16:41.299 --> 00:16:43.359
I wasn't able to see everything that was going on.
585
00:16:44.119 --> 00:16:46.020
So did you go live there Sunday night
586
00:16:46.719 --> 00:16:47.239
like for work?
587
00:16:47.280 --> 00:16:47.900
I did.
588
00:16:48.080 --> 00:16:48.479
I,
589
00:16:48.599 --> 00:16:49.059
I
590
00:16:49.659 --> 00:16:50.599
recorded a look live,
591
00:16:50.719 --> 00:16:50.840
so,
592
00:16:50.919 --> 00:16:51.760
but I was there on scene,
593
00:16:51.840 --> 00:16:52.020
yes,
594
00:16:52.750 --> 00:16:52.760
yeah,
595
00:16:52.840 --> 00:16:54.559
for people watching you don't know a look live is when
596
00:16:54.559 --> 00:16:57.179
you like record it and then they play it back later.
597
00:16:57.479 --> 00:17:00.809
And so you went home Sunday night and then you were back on the story Monday.
598
00:17:02.150 --> 00:17:02.710
That's correct,
599
00:17:02.820 --> 00:17:02.979
yeah,
600
00:17:03.150 --> 00:17:04.390
I reported on it
601
00:17:04.709 --> 00:17:06.118
every day for 3 weeks.
602
00:17:06.250 --> 00:17:06.489
OK.
603
00:17:06.670 --> 00:17:08.489
What was it like when you got back Monday?
604
00:17:08.540 --> 00:17:09.689
Did you get back early
605
00:17:09.790 --> 00:17:10.608
and like,
606
00:17:10.618 --> 00:17:11.290
was it more
607
00:17:11.630 --> 00:17:12.250
active then,
608
00:17:12.270 --> 00:17:12.750
would you say?
609
00:17:12.770 --> 00:17:13.348
Like what was this?
610
00:17:13.420 --> 00:17:16.290
Do you remember what the it didn't change much from Sunday to Monday?
611
00:17:17.229 --> 00:17:17.750
Oh my gosh,
612
00:17:17.829 --> 00:17:17.939
yeah,
613
00:17:17.989 --> 00:17:19.260
it changed a lot actually.
614
00:17:19.348 --> 00:17:20.229
I work nights,
615
00:17:20.310 --> 00:17:23.108
so I worked from 2 to 11 p.m.
616
00:17:23.469 --> 00:17:25.069
So in the morning,
617
00:17:25.189 --> 00:17:26.310
I can't really speak to that,
618
00:17:26.430 --> 00:17:29.510
but by the time I got there at around 3 p.m.
619
00:17:29.949 --> 00:17:31.880
There was a lot more people there.
620
00:17:32.000 --> 00:17:33.380
There were deputies there,
621
00:17:33.439 --> 00:17:34.430
you could see the,
622
00:17:34.479 --> 00:17:35.109
the tape.
623
00:17:35.199 --> 00:17:36.680
There was tape around the house,
624
00:17:36.750 --> 00:17:39.709
and then there were a lot of reporters from Phoenix.
625
00:17:40.709 --> 00:17:42.400
National reporters were starting to come in,
626
00:17:42.510 --> 00:17:45.500
but that kind of more so exploded in the next few days.
627
00:17:45.680 --> 00:17:47.800
But it was much different of a scene.
628
00:17:47.880 --> 00:17:49.609
There it was more active,
629
00:17:49.680 --> 00:17:49.949
uh,
630
00:17:50.199 --> 00:17:54.640
you could tell that this was a missing persons case as opposed to the night before.
631
00:17:54.680 --> 00:17:55.040
Like I said,
632
00:17:55.079 --> 00:17:55.719
it was just really,
633
00:17:55.800 --> 00:17:56.530
really quiet.
634
00:17:57.510 --> 00:18:00.189
Were you suspicious in the beginning like that it was gonna be,
635
00:18:00.319 --> 00:18:02.300
cause I know some people thought she wandered off,
636
00:18:02.839 --> 00:18:04.599
like what was your gut telling you,
637
00:18:04.660 --> 00:18:05.040
I guess,
638
00:18:05.160 --> 00:18:05.819
initially?
639
00:18:06.729 --> 00:18:09.170
I wanted to think the best because I had met her,
640
00:18:09.290 --> 00:18:09.650
um,
641
00:18:09.810 --> 00:18:11.410
but it did make you wonder
642
00:18:11.810 --> 00:18:13.209
why isn't she in the house.
643
00:18:13.530 --> 00:18:17.170
I think I did more so lean into at first on the missing person,
644
00:18:17.209 --> 00:18:18.719
like she had kind of wandered out,
645
00:18:19.050 --> 00:18:21.069
but then as the days went on,
646
00:18:21.530 --> 00:18:24.290
I feel like I leaned into more of like the
647
00:18:24.910 --> 00:18:26.829
Something else could have happened,
648
00:18:26.920 --> 00:18:27.689
and
649
00:18:27.869 --> 00:18:31.229
I was definitely closely listening to what the sheriffs had to say,
650
00:18:31.270 --> 00:18:34.819
and a lot of people were asking me what happened because not only had I met her,
651
00:18:34.869 --> 00:18:36.000
but I'm also reporting on it,
652
00:18:36.109 --> 00:18:36.459
but
653
00:18:36.709 --> 00:18:39.410
really we were just reporting the information that the sheriffs had for us.
654
00:18:39.510 --> 00:18:40.689
So I had to
655
00:18:40.829 --> 00:18:42.329
really kind of piece together
656
00:18:42.589 --> 00:18:43.609
the information myself.
657
00:18:44.609 --> 00:18:45.560
Was it a weird feeling?
658
00:18:45.609 --> 00:18:47.199
I'm just trying to like put myself in your shoes.
659
00:18:47.310 --> 00:18:47.439
Have,
660
00:18:47.569 --> 00:18:47.959
like,
661
00:18:48.089 --> 00:18:48.770
you know,
662
00:18:49.050 --> 00:18:51.250
I probably would have been excited to meet Savannah Guthrie too,
663
00:18:51.329 --> 00:18:51.530
you know,
664
00:18:51.609 --> 00:18:52.489
like I'm a fan,
665
00:18:52.670 --> 00:18:52.680
a,
666
00:18:53.170 --> 00:18:53.489
you know,
667
00:18:53.650 --> 00:18:55.030
famous news anchor.
668
00:18:55.300 --> 00:18:55.489
Like,
669
00:18:55.530 --> 00:18:57.069
was it a weird feeling
670
00:18:57.790 --> 00:18:59.819
realizing you were like covering this story that
671
00:18:59.819 --> 00:19:02.189
suddenly was like the biggest story in the world
672
00:19:02.530 --> 00:19:04.170
and you had actually met the mom.
673
00:19:05.729 --> 00:19:06.050
Yeah,
674
00:19:06.170 --> 00:19:07.500
it was definitely,
675
00:19:07.630 --> 00:19:08.119
um,
676
00:19:08.209 --> 00:19:10.609
I would say an overwhelming feeling,
677
00:19:10.650 --> 00:19:11.449
cause like I said,
678
00:19:11.530 --> 00:19:14.790
I didn't ever think that I was going to report on
679
00:19:15.050 --> 00:19:16.890
a missing person that I had met.
680
00:19:17.170 --> 00:19:18.150
And so
681
00:19:18.489 --> 00:19:20.040
I had a sense of like,
682
00:19:20.050 --> 00:19:20.729
this is sad,
683
00:19:20.810 --> 00:19:22.160
but I also have to do my job,
684
00:19:22.170 --> 00:19:24.630
and I have to report the news,
685
00:19:24.650 --> 00:19:25.170
and
686
00:19:25.329 --> 00:19:27.130
I did want to bring to light that I had
687
00:19:27.130 --> 00:19:29.640
met her because I wanted to put that personal touch,
688
00:19:29.660 --> 00:19:30.410
and
689
00:19:30.689 --> 00:19:32.229
I really wanted to
690
00:19:32.650 --> 00:19:34.329
let the audience know that.
691
00:19:34.750 --> 00:19:39.670
I represented Tucson in a way that I could portray the story in a sensitive way,
692
00:19:39.719 --> 00:19:41.449
but here are also the facts,
693
00:19:41.780 --> 00:19:43.459
and this is what we know right now,
694
00:19:43.670 --> 00:19:44.219
because a lot of,
695
00:19:44.300 --> 00:19:45.900
there's a lot of speculation,
696
00:19:46.209 --> 00:19:46.969
and
697
00:19:47.109 --> 00:19:49.599
a lot of conspiracy theories that I wanted to just say,
698
00:19:49.660 --> 00:19:49.709
hey.
699
00:19:49.880 --> 00:19:51.550
These are the facts that we know right now.
700
00:19:51.800 --> 00:19:52.199
But
701
00:19:52.439 --> 00:19:53.229
having met her,
702
00:19:53.280 --> 00:19:55.300
I feel like this was
703
00:19:55.439 --> 00:19:57.060
something that was just really sad.
704
00:19:57.209 --> 00:19:57.699
I
705
00:19:58.000 --> 00:20:02.119
really felt for the family because I had met them a few months before that.
706
00:20:02.239 --> 00:20:04.099
And I really felt for Savannah,
707
00:20:04.239 --> 00:20:04.859
who
708
00:20:05.359 --> 00:20:06.000
I had met,
709
00:20:06.010 --> 00:20:07.849
and I know is on TV.
710
00:20:08.040 --> 00:20:08.500
So,
711
00:20:09.000 --> 00:20:09.319
you know,
712
00:20:09.520 --> 00:20:13.180
it's just a really personal touch because I'm a news reporter just like her.
713
00:20:14.140 --> 00:20:16.719
What was it like covering it then for those 3 weeks?
714
00:20:16.770 --> 00:20:16.910
I mean,
715
00:20:16.979 --> 00:20:18.420
I think I probably got out there,
716
00:20:18.569 --> 00:20:18.699
you know,
717
00:20:18.770 --> 00:20:19.599
a couple of days
718
00:20:19.699 --> 00:20:20.300
after she went.
719
00:20:20.380 --> 00:20:21.500
I forget exactly what day it was.
720
00:20:21.540 --> 00:20:22.900
I think it was Monday actually.
721
00:20:23.099 --> 00:20:26.079
So I remember like so many reporters out there then,
722
00:20:26.420 --> 00:20:26.930
um,
723
00:20:27.300 --> 00:20:29.560
but like what was that time like for you?
724
00:20:31.109 --> 00:20:35.760
It was really incredible to see that it had grown into such a big story.
725
00:20:35.859 --> 00:20:36.020
I,
726
00:20:36.140 --> 00:20:38.020
I knew it was going to be a big story
727
00:20:38.020 --> 00:20:41.219
within Arizona itself and perhaps the United States as well,
728
00:20:41.339 --> 00:20:44.199
but I think the way that it exploded so quickly was,
729
00:20:44.540 --> 00:20:45.030
um,
730
00:20:45.180 --> 00:20:47.760
just really amazing to see.
731
00:20:48.060 --> 00:20:50.989
I don't use amazing in like in like a good way,
732
00:20:51.060 --> 00:20:51.260
but I,
733
00:20:51.339 --> 00:20:52.810
I mean it in a way that it's like
734
00:20:53.099 --> 00:20:53.560
very.
735
00:20:54.280 --> 00:20:58.819
Inspiring to see a story go big that quickly because
736
00:20:59.199 --> 00:20:59.619
uh
737
00:20:59.839 --> 00:21:03.119
Tucson News usually stays within Tucson,
738
00:21:03.239 --> 00:21:06.160
and this was a case that exploded really worldwide.
739
00:21:06.760 --> 00:21:10.280
So it was very interesting to see how much it caught
740
00:21:10.280 --> 00:21:13.790
on in the first day the Phoenix reporters were there.
741
00:21:14.160 --> 00:21:14.900
That was
742
00:21:15.160 --> 00:21:15.880
not a shock,
743
00:21:16.000 --> 00:21:19.260
but when the the national reporters started to
744
00:21:19.560 --> 00:21:19.839
come in,
745
00:21:19.920 --> 00:21:21.469
I think that's when I realized like,
746
00:21:21.479 --> 00:21:21.760
wow,
747
00:21:21.839 --> 00:21:24.780
this really is a story that has reached far.
748
00:21:25.359 --> 00:21:26.949
Did you think it would be solved?
749
00:21:27.079 --> 00:21:29.040
Like what was your feeling in the beginning?
750
00:21:30.260 --> 00:21:34.479
I did think it was going to be solved because it was such a high profile case.
751
00:21:34.689 --> 00:21:34.979
Um,
752
00:21:35.060 --> 00:21:36.280
the FBI was involved,
753
00:21:36.359 --> 00:21:41.560
so I really felt like maybe we would be getting some answers within the first
754
00:21:42.000 --> 00:21:42.849
two weeks,
755
00:21:42.859 --> 00:21:44.209
and then a month passed by,
756
00:21:44.219 --> 00:21:45.420
and it kind of made me wonder,
757
00:21:45.459 --> 00:21:45.619
like,
758
00:21:45.699 --> 00:21:47.020
are we going to be getting answers?
759
00:21:47.339 --> 00:21:49.099
Once months started to go by,
760
00:21:49.170 --> 00:21:51.939
I realized like maybe it would take a little bit more time.
761
00:21:52.900 --> 00:21:56.449
And I remember that moment when they released the surveillance photos,
762
00:21:56.459 --> 00:21:58.199
like that was kind of a breakthrough
763
00:21:58.579 --> 00:22:00.939
moment where I thought like it's only going to be
764
00:22:01.140 --> 00:22:02.520
maybe a matter of days,
765
00:22:02.900 --> 00:22:03.170
just cause,
766
00:22:03.180 --> 00:22:03.329
you know,
767
00:22:03.380 --> 00:22:05.380
maybe someone would recognize that person.
768
00:22:06.180 --> 00:22:06.699
You're right,
769
00:22:06.819 --> 00:22:06.900
yeah,
770
00:22:06.979 --> 00:22:07.140
I mean,
771
00:22:07.219 --> 00:22:08.619
Tucson is a tight knit community.
772
00:22:08.819 --> 00:22:10.619
So if it was someone from Tucson,
773
00:22:10.739 --> 00:22:14.079
I also thought that maybe that person would come to light,
774
00:22:14.390 --> 00:22:15.339
and
775
00:22:15.939 --> 00:22:16.329
you're right,
776
00:22:16.359 --> 00:22:18.160
it was a really big breakthrough,
777
00:22:18.219 --> 00:22:18.760
um,
778
00:22:18.780 --> 00:22:20.839
when that surveillance footage came out.
779
00:22:20.900 --> 00:22:23.959
I think that was that piece of information that really
780
00:22:24.339 --> 00:22:25.300
brought a lot of people,
781
00:22:25.380 --> 00:22:26.579
a lot of eyes onto that case,
782
00:22:26.660 --> 00:22:29.170
even more if you hadn't already been in tune with it.
783
00:22:29.329 --> 00:22:32.040
That video was something that was kind of like.
784
00:22:32.569 --> 00:22:33.560
I guess in a way creepy,
785
00:22:33.609 --> 00:22:35.790
like it was something that
786
00:22:36.010 --> 00:22:38.489
a lot of people saw and you're right,
787
00:22:38.530 --> 00:22:41.050
I thought maybe someone from Tucson would recognize that person,
788
00:22:41.089 --> 00:22:41.469
but
789
00:22:41.689 --> 00:22:42.199
it's a mask,
790
00:22:42.250 --> 00:22:43.469
so it is pretty hard.
791
00:22:43.969 --> 00:22:44.089
Yeah,
792
00:22:44.170 --> 00:22:45.270
I thought someone
793
00:22:45.380 --> 00:22:47.270
would I can't believe it's now been.
794
00:22:47.719 --> 00:22:48.040
You know,
795
00:22:48.119 --> 00:22:50.459
what has it been like 89 months at this point.
796
00:22:50.640 --> 00:22:51.030
Um,
797
00:22:51.160 --> 00:22:52.099
do you have any
798
00:22:52.339 --> 00:22:52.619
feeling,
799
00:22:52.640 --> 00:22:53.180
like any
800
00:22:53.760 --> 00:22:54.780
thoughts about like
801
00:22:55.040 --> 00:22:57.170
whether it will be solved because you moved to Phoenix now,
802
00:22:57.239 --> 00:22:57.359
right?
803
00:22:57.390 --> 00:22:58.540
You don't work in Tucson,
804
00:22:58.959 --> 00:22:59.160
yeah,
805
00:22:59.369 --> 00:22:59.880
not anymore,
806
00:23:00.000 --> 00:23:00.050
yeah.
807
00:23:00.199 --> 00:23:02.380
Have you been working on the story at all anymore?
808
00:23:03.229 --> 00:23:06.270
I did do a few stories about the ransom notes.
809
00:23:06.349 --> 00:23:06.969
Um,
810
00:23:07.390 --> 00:23:08.630
I did those stories,
811
00:23:08.750 --> 00:23:11.650
but I haven't gone back to Tucson to report on it.
812
00:23:12.770 --> 00:23:15.250
Do you think it'll be solved just based on what
813
00:23:15.250 --> 00:23:17.310
you know and having been there from day one?
814
00:23:18.819 --> 00:23:20.060
I think one day it will be,
815
00:23:20.180 --> 00:23:21.589
but it's going to be years.
816
00:23:21.859 --> 00:23:23.500
I don't think we're going to see.
817
00:23:23.579 --> 00:23:24.300
I think so,
818
00:23:24.380 --> 00:23:24.599
yeah.
819
00:23:24.699 --> 00:23:25.170
I mean,
820
00:23:25.420 --> 00:23:27.420
the FBI is on this case is a really,
821
00:23:27.530 --> 00:23:27.660
you know,
822
00:23:27.819 --> 00:23:28.780
high profile agency,
823
00:23:28.819 --> 00:23:29.400
obviously.
824
00:23:29.500 --> 00:23:30.040
So
825
00:23:30.420 --> 00:23:33.369
if they're on it and we still haven't heard in 8 to 9 months,
826
00:23:33.619 --> 00:23:33.969
I think it,
827
00:23:33.979 --> 00:23:36.849
it could be years until we find out what actually happened.
828
00:23:37.459 --> 00:23:37.640
Yeah,
829
00:23:37.699 --> 00:23:38.180
it's,
830
00:23:38.380 --> 00:23:39.300
it's crazy to,
831
00:23:39.500 --> 00:23:40.270
to think about,
832
00:23:40.300 --> 00:23:40.819
um.
833
00:23:41.689 --> 00:23:42.459
I don't know.
834
00:23:42.569 --> 00:23:43.930
I guess maybe since you work in Phoenix now,
835
00:23:44.010 --> 00:23:47.150
you'd be more comfortable answering this cause I remember when I was in local news,
836
00:23:47.689 --> 00:23:50.569
like it was kind of tricky with the local officials
837
00:23:50.569 --> 00:23:52.550
because you had to work with them a lot.
838
00:23:52.810 --> 00:23:54.989
So like you didn't see as many stories,
839
00:23:55.579 --> 00:23:56.189
um,
840
00:23:56.569 --> 00:23:57.390
kind of like,
841
00:23:57.410 --> 00:23:58.239
uh,
842
00:23:58.250 --> 00:23:59.400
questioning some of their practices,
843
00:23:59.479 --> 00:23:59.709
but
844
00:23:59.849 --> 00:24:01.640
there's been so many questions about the Pima
845
00:24:01.640 --> 00:24:04.550
County Sheriff's Office and whether they've handled the
846
00:24:04.770 --> 00:24:05.439
case correctly.
847
00:24:05.489 --> 00:24:05.770
I mean,
848
00:24:06.010 --> 00:24:06.020
did,
849
00:24:06.250 --> 00:24:06.729
did you,
850
00:24:06.930 --> 00:24:08.170
do you have an opinion on that?
851
00:24:09.329 --> 00:24:10.290
I don't have an opinion.
852
00:24:10.369 --> 00:24:14.319
I'm not going to comment on that because I still email them regularly
853
00:24:14.319 --> 00:24:17.410
um for whether I'm in Tucson for another case or for this,
854
00:24:17.489 --> 00:24:18.920
but what I will say is that
855
00:24:19.650 --> 00:24:21.359
It did look different the first night.
856
00:24:21.420 --> 00:24:21.619
Uh,
857
00:24:21.699 --> 00:24:24.560
there were not as many deputy lights on,
858
00:24:25.260 --> 00:24:26.479
police lights on,
859
00:24:26.660 --> 00:24:26.709
uh,
860
00:24:26.780 --> 00:24:27.140
like I said,
861
00:24:27.180 --> 00:24:28.199
I didn't see any
862
00:24:28.420 --> 00:24:29.170
police tape up,
863
00:24:29.260 --> 00:24:29.660
so
864
00:24:29.859 --> 00:24:31.829
that's what I will say about that part.
865
00:24:32.160 --> 00:24:34.520
Like there could have been more resources
866
00:24:34.780 --> 00:24:36.339
immediately based on what you saw.
867
00:24:36.380 --> 00:24:38.540
Like there wasn't a ton going on the first night.
868
00:24:38.579 --> 00:24:39.619
Is that kind of what you're saying?
869
00:24:41.209 --> 00:24:43.810
There weren't as many as other missing person
870
00:24:43.810 --> 00:24:46.050
scenes or crime scenes that I had covered.
871
00:24:46.130 --> 00:24:46.540
I see.
872
00:24:46.650 --> 00:24:47.310
OK.
873
00:24:47.729 --> 00:24:48.189
Um,
874
00:24:48.530 --> 00:24:49.609
anything else you think is important,
875
00:24:49.729 --> 00:24:50.089
Andrew,
876
00:24:50.130 --> 00:24:50.790
like just,
877
00:24:51.050 --> 00:24:51.209
I,
878
00:24:51.290 --> 00:24:51.930
I haven't talked,
879
00:24:51.989 --> 00:24:52.130
I mean,
880
00:24:52.189 --> 00:24:52.319
I,
881
00:24:52.410 --> 00:24:55.800
I was really interested just because we did a whole episode about,
882
00:24:55.810 --> 00:24:56.459
um,
883
00:24:56.569 --> 00:24:57.290
her visit,
884
00:24:57.560 --> 00:24:58.119
uh,
885
00:24:58.130 --> 00:24:58.390
to,
886
00:24:58.400 --> 00:24:58.959
um,
887
00:24:59.510 --> 00:24:59.520
to,
888
00:24:59.890 --> 00:25:00.459
to Tucson,
889
00:25:00.530 --> 00:25:02.130
and it's just interesting that you were there.
890
00:25:02.319 --> 00:25:05.109
Anything else that like stood out to you that's kind of in your mind?
891
00:25:06.939 --> 00:25:07.020
Well,
892
00:25:07.060 --> 00:25:10.939
I think what stood out was that Savannah had just visited,
893
00:25:11.010 --> 00:25:14.119
and so that's what made it even more impactful was
894
00:25:14.300 --> 00:25:16.729
that she had just visited it and then she obviously
895
00:25:16.729 --> 00:25:19.359
went back to Tucson because her mom was missing.
896
00:25:19.660 --> 00:25:20.199
So,
897
00:25:20.500 --> 00:25:20.930
um,
898
00:25:21.099 --> 00:25:23.489
when it comes to this case,
899
00:25:23.670 --> 00:25:26.280
it was very jarring to see that
900
00:25:26.459 --> 00:25:28.650
she was just in Tucson because she's
901
00:25:29.550 --> 00:25:31.810
Not publicly in Tucson all the time
902
00:25:31.989 --> 00:25:33.890
to film something like the Today Show,
903
00:25:34.150 --> 00:25:35.010
and then
904
00:25:35.209 --> 00:25:36.020
when she comes back,
905
00:25:36.109 --> 00:25:36.719
this happens.
906
00:25:36.829 --> 00:25:39.150
So it's just like really sad to see,
907
00:25:39.189 --> 00:25:40.770
and it's just something that
908
00:25:40.949 --> 00:25:42.609
I really hope gets resolved.
909
00:25:42.900 --> 00:25:46.150
Really appreciate Andrew for taking the time um to talk with me and
910
00:25:46.150 --> 00:25:49.689
sharing those videos with me from when he was at El Charro Restaurant.
911
00:25:50.260 --> 00:25:50.430
Uh,
912
00:25:50.550 --> 00:25:52.589
something else interesting that's happened over the last
913
00:25:52.589 --> 00:25:55.589
couple of weeks is Luke Daley was arrested,
914
00:25:55.670 --> 00:25:56.890
and Luke Daly,
915
00:25:57.219 --> 00:25:58.089
let me take you guys back.
916
00:25:58.250 --> 00:25:59.140
Remember there were the,
917
00:25:59.319 --> 00:26:01.170
the two raids shortly after,
918
00:26:01.479 --> 00:26:01.489
uh,
919
00:26:02.430 --> 00:26:05.069
the law enforcement raids shortly after Nancy Guthrie went missing.
920
00:26:05.410 --> 00:26:08.270
The first was the one near the Mexico border
921
00:26:08.569 --> 00:26:12.810
where the gentleman named Carlos was taken into custody and released and it
922
00:26:12.810 --> 00:26:14.810
turns out it seemed it had nothing to do with Nancy Guthrie.
923
00:26:15.119 --> 00:26:17.130
The second was at that house just a couple
924
00:26:17.130 --> 00:26:20.670
of miles from Nancy Guthrie's which was Luke Daly,
925
00:26:21.079 --> 00:26:21.089
um,
926
00:26:21.410 --> 00:26:21.969
and he was,
927
00:26:22.010 --> 00:26:22.489
and that was the one.
928
00:26:22.594 --> 00:26:23.165
I was out at,
929
00:26:23.185 --> 00:26:24.885
I remember when I ended up getting in the perimeter
930
00:26:24.885 --> 00:26:26.694
and it was crazy and I was in the car.
931
00:26:27.125 --> 00:26:27.604
That
932
00:26:28.364 --> 00:26:29.515
was a big one because it was,
933
00:26:29.564 --> 00:26:31.305
there was a ton of FBI there
934
00:26:31.564 --> 00:26:33.994
and Luke Daly was detained but he was then
935
00:26:33.994 --> 00:26:36.165
released and I interviewed his lawyer who said,
936
00:26:36.234 --> 00:26:36.364
look,
937
00:26:36.444 --> 00:26:37.584
he has nothing to do
938
00:26:38.204 --> 00:26:39.564
with the Nancy Guthrie.
939
00:26:40.489 --> 00:26:41.040
Um,
940
00:26:41.550 --> 00:26:42.500
disappearance,
941
00:26:42.900 --> 00:26:42.959
uh,
942
00:26:43.359 --> 00:26:44.079
and he was released.
943
00:26:44.160 --> 00:26:44.959
Luke Daly was released.
944
00:26:45.030 --> 00:26:46.040
There was never any charges,
945
00:26:46.199 --> 00:26:47.819
although Sheriff Nanos will never
946
00:26:47.959 --> 00:26:49.099
on the record say that
947
00:26:49.479 --> 00:26:49.729
that
948
00:26:49.880 --> 00:26:51.199
Luke Daly has totally been cleared.
949
00:26:51.280 --> 00:26:52.119
He still hasn't said that,
950
00:26:52.199 --> 00:26:52.479
but again,
951
00:26:52.550 --> 00:26:55.699
his lawyer says he had nothing to do with Nancy Guthrie's disappearance.
952
00:26:56.189 --> 00:26:56.359
Well,
953
00:26:56.479 --> 00:26:58.599
Luke Daly has been arrested again.
954
00:26:59.400 --> 00:27:01.709
He had pending drug and firearm charges.
955
00:27:01.949 --> 00:27:05.479
He was on probation for another case involving drugs and weapons violations,
956
00:27:05.560 --> 00:27:07.020
and he was arrested again,
957
00:27:07.520 --> 00:27:07.540
uh,
958
00:27:07.719 --> 00:27:09.140
which is just interesting,
959
00:27:09.910 --> 00:27:09.939
um.
960
00:27:11.180 --> 00:27:11.189
Because
961
00:27:12.239 --> 00:27:14.619
there was this raid at his house shortly after
962
00:27:15.199 --> 00:27:16.550
Nancy Guthrie went missing.
963
00:27:17.000 --> 00:27:19.040
So I wanted to talk to
964
00:27:19.239 --> 00:27:22.859
a retired FBI agent Maureen O'Connell about that and also just about all,
965
00:27:22.959 --> 00:27:24.660
I haven't talked to her about the case in a while.
966
00:27:25.180 --> 00:27:25.349
Uh,
967
00:27:25.469 --> 00:27:26.630
probably like at least a month,
968
00:27:26.989 --> 00:27:27.430
so I,
969
00:27:27.510 --> 00:27:30.910
I was close to her where she lives in California and met up with Maureen,
970
00:27:30.949 --> 00:27:32.729
and I want you to hear my full conversation with her.
971
00:27:32.989 --> 00:27:33.099
Uh,
972
00:27:33.189 --> 00:27:33.670
Maureen,
973
00:27:33.869 --> 00:27:34.469
first of all,
974
00:27:34.869 --> 00:27:35.430
everyone knows you,
975
00:27:35.550 --> 00:27:39.300
but I'm actually at your house right now because I was in the area and I'm like,
976
00:27:39.380 --> 00:27:39.709
Maureen,
977
00:27:39.790 --> 00:27:40.670
can I come over?
978
00:27:40.790 --> 00:27:41.510
And I'm gonna be,
979
00:27:41.589 --> 00:27:43.099
I'm gonna be making you pizza.
980
00:27:43.189 --> 00:27:43.390
Yeah,
981
00:27:43.469 --> 00:27:44.550
it really wasn't even that pleasant.
982
00:27:44.625 --> 00:27:44.964
And
983
00:27:45.125 --> 00:27:45.275
you're like,
984
00:27:45.385 --> 00:27:45.464
sure,
985
00:27:45.574 --> 00:27:46.025
come over,
986
00:27:46.185 --> 00:27:48.204
and I won't give a disclose your location,
987
00:27:48.344 --> 00:27:49.324
but it's very beautiful,
988
00:27:50.145 --> 00:27:51.464
a ton of palm trees,
989
00:27:51.584 --> 00:27:52.584
ocean in the distance,
990
00:27:52.625 --> 00:27:53.255
and you have a,
991
00:27:53.344 --> 00:27:54.104
a good setup here,
992
00:27:54.224 --> 00:27:54.584
Maureen.
993
00:27:54.704 --> 00:27:54.824
Yeah,
994
00:27:54.944 --> 00:27:55.214
well,
995
00:27:55.425 --> 00:27:57.665
the good news is we're not going swimming after dinner.
996
00:27:57.824 --> 00:27:58.224
That's true,
997
00:27:58.385 --> 00:27:58.655
right?
998
00:27:58.944 --> 00:27:59.704
We're just gonna
999
00:28:00.015 --> 00:28:01.905
chill here and have a nice evening,
1000
00:28:02.025 --> 00:28:02.224
uh,
1001
00:28:02.344 --> 00:28:02.744
pizza,
1002
00:28:02.824 --> 00:28:04.185
maybe a glass of wine and
1003
00:28:04.589 --> 00:28:04.829
Have a,
1004
00:28:04.869 --> 00:28:05.430
have a great time.
1005
00:28:05.469 --> 00:28:07.579
It's so good to see you and welcome to my home.
1006
00:28:07.949 --> 00:28:08.349
I haven't seen you.
1007
00:28:08.500 --> 00:28:09.859
It's not your first time here,
1008
00:28:09.979 --> 00:28:10.380
but
1009
00:28:10.630 --> 00:28:10.900
we're,
1010
00:28:11.000 --> 00:28:12.229
we're very happy to help you,
1011
00:28:12.319 --> 00:28:13.229
my have you here,
1012
00:28:13.310 --> 00:28:14.130
my husband and I.
1013
00:28:14.270 --> 00:28:14.390
Well,
1014
00:28:14.469 --> 00:28:14.869
thank you.
1015
00:28:14.989 --> 00:28:18.189
I wanted to ask you because we haven't talked about Nancy Guthrie in a while,
1016
00:28:18.270 --> 00:28:18.729
um,
1017
00:28:19.069 --> 00:28:19.469
first of all,
1018
00:28:19.550 --> 00:28:20.910
you heard the sheriff's new interview on the radio,
1019
00:28:20.920 --> 00:28:20.930
very
1020
00:28:22.739 --> 00:28:22.829
interesting,
1021
00:28:22.869 --> 00:28:24.229
and those radio interviews are really,
1022
00:28:24.349 --> 00:28:24.380
I,
1023
00:28:24.479 --> 00:28:24.569
I,
1024
00:28:24.670 --> 00:28:26.910
he's done it a couple times with that Buckmaster,
1025
00:28:26.979 --> 00:28:29.310
which I always find them interesting because he,
1026
00:28:29.550 --> 00:28:31.290
I think he's just has his guard down.
1027
00:28:31.739 --> 00:28:31.900
Uh,
1028
00:28:32.020 --> 00:28:32.380
when he,
1029
00:28:32.560 --> 00:28:32.569
uh,
1030
00:28:32.900 --> 00:28:33.939
it seems like he knows him,
1031
00:28:34.099 --> 00:28:35.619
it's a local radio show,
1032
00:28:35.819 --> 00:28:38.239
and you kind of get little tidbits that maybe you wouldn't get.
1033
00:28:38.300 --> 00:28:41.439
Like I think he maybe has his guard up a little more with like the news interviews.
1034
00:28:41.619 --> 00:28:42.339
I would agree with that.
1035
00:28:42.400 --> 00:28:44.380
It sounds to me almost like he's at home.
1036
00:28:44.579 --> 00:28:46.060
That's how comfortable he is.
1037
00:28:46.619 --> 00:28:46.780
And,
1038
00:28:46.890 --> 00:28:47.939
and it's a long interview,
1039
00:28:48.020 --> 00:28:48.180
you know,
1040
00:28:48.260 --> 00:28:49.079
it's not like
1041
00:28:49.530 --> 00:28:50.959
3 prepared questions.
1042
00:28:51.060 --> 00:28:52.689
Here's the canned answers.
1043
00:28:53.300 --> 00:28:53.920
He goes on.
1044
00:28:54.089 --> 00:28:56.479
What did you make when he talked about how
1045
00:28:56.949 --> 00:28:56.959
he,
1046
00:28:57.040 --> 00:28:59.800
he still does not believe this is a cold case?
1047
00:29:00.900 --> 00:29:00.910
Well,
1048
00:29:01.780 --> 00:29:02.300
um,
1049
00:29:03.310 --> 00:29:06.329
I think by virtue of the amount of time that has passed
1050
00:29:06.430 --> 00:29:08.689
it's certainly not a um
1051
00:29:08.829 --> 00:29:10.290
roaring hot case
1052
00:29:10.670 --> 00:29:11.280
but
1053
00:29:11.910 --> 00:29:14.310
I did like what he's talked about the evidence
1054
00:29:14.310 --> 00:29:16.739
he talked about evidence being at 4 different labs.
1055
00:29:16.750 --> 00:29:20.030
That means there's a lot more evidence than than we were originally told,
1056
00:29:20.089 --> 00:29:20.489
which,
1057
00:29:20.750 --> 00:29:20.989
you know,
1058
00:29:21.079 --> 00:29:22.650
no one has to tell us anything,
1059
00:29:22.689 --> 00:29:23.130
but
1060
00:29:23.390 --> 00:29:25.650
I was very glad to hear that there was
1061
00:29:26.069 --> 00:29:28.699
that there were 4 labs that evidence was sent to.
1062
00:29:29.089 --> 00:29:29.849
Because as we've,
1063
00:29:29.890 --> 00:29:32.199
you and I've talked before about these different labs,
1064
00:29:32.250 --> 00:29:33.439
they specialize in very,
1065
00:29:33.530 --> 00:29:34.550
very specific,
1066
00:29:35.170 --> 00:29:35.400
uh,
1067
00:29:35.410 --> 00:29:36.599
niche things,
1068
00:29:36.810 --> 00:29:37.089
you know,
1069
00:29:37.170 --> 00:29:37.550
like
1070
00:29:37.770 --> 00:29:40.439
getting a full DNA profile from a rootless hair,
1071
00:29:40.719 --> 00:29:41.020
remember,
1072
00:29:41.089 --> 00:29:41.339
you know,
1073
00:29:41.459 --> 00:29:42.040
that's why that
1074
00:29:42.449 --> 00:29:44.310
that Florida lab was important.
1075
00:29:44.609 --> 00:29:47.000
I don't know what these other labs specialize in,
1076
00:29:47.079 --> 00:29:47.359
but,
1077
00:29:47.369 --> 00:29:47.719
um,
1078
00:29:47.750 --> 00:29:49.150
I know one of them is
1079
00:29:49.449 --> 00:29:50.079
for the,
1080
00:29:50.089 --> 00:29:50.410
uh,
1081
00:29:50.420 --> 00:29:52.069
mixture of for,
1082
00:29:52.569 --> 00:29:53.699
for people's DNA.
1083
00:29:54.390 --> 00:29:55.800
I just am
1084
00:29:56.270 --> 00:29:58.010
absolutely gobsmacked
1085
00:29:58.270 --> 00:29:59.089
that
1086
00:29:59.910 --> 00:30:03.550
there hasn't been any kind of a hit or a genetic genealogy hit
1087
00:30:03.670 --> 00:30:04.160
yet.
1088
00:30:04.510 --> 00:30:05.979
And he said too that,
1089
00:30:06.510 --> 00:30:06.969
um,
1090
00:30:07.229 --> 00:30:08.089
that they had,
1091
00:30:08.310 --> 00:30:09.069
which we had heard,
1092
00:30:09.150 --> 00:30:10.660
but it was interesting to hear him say it again,
1093
00:30:10.910 --> 00:30:12.469
that they had DNA
1094
00:30:12.750 --> 00:30:16.349
that does not match back to the people that they know have been in that house like,
1095
00:30:16.439 --> 00:30:19.670
like her family and friends and that he said that in that interview.
1096
00:30:19.910 --> 00:30:21.849
So it sounds like he's still hopeful
1097
00:30:22.189 --> 00:30:22.540
that.
1098
00:30:23.119 --> 00:30:23.979
The DNA
1099
00:30:24.130 --> 00:30:24.859
could end up
1100
00:30:25.099 --> 00:30:25.760
coming through.
1101
00:30:26.000 --> 00:30:26.339
Well,
1102
00:30:27.760 --> 00:30:28.660
so there's different.
1103
00:30:29.030 --> 00:30:30.520
I look at DNA like this.
1104
00:30:30.839 --> 00:30:32.420
There's DNA that can be,
1105
00:30:32.439 --> 00:30:33.060
um,
1106
00:30:33.479 --> 00:30:34.060
um,
1107
00:30:34.599 --> 00:30:35.359
like on the watch,
1108
00:30:35.479 --> 00:30:36.069
let's say,
1109
00:30:36.359 --> 00:30:39.260
and maybe it's from the lady who does her nails
1110
00:30:39.439 --> 00:30:42.959
who helps take her watch off so she can do the massage for,
1111
00:30:43.040 --> 00:30:43.109
uh,
1112
00:30:43.189 --> 00:30:43.400
you know,
1113
00:30:43.479 --> 00:30:45.199
with the lotion afterwards or something.
1114
00:30:45.479 --> 00:30:46.500
It could be her DNA.
1115
00:30:46.760 --> 00:30:47.459
It could be,
1116
00:30:47.520 --> 00:30:48.099
um,
1117
00:30:48.920 --> 00:30:49.780
anyone who.
1118
00:30:51.119 --> 00:30:51.510
You know,
1119
00:30:51.800 --> 00:30:52.920
touched something else like a guy,
1120
00:30:53.000 --> 00:30:54.199
a delivery guy came in,
1121
00:30:54.349 --> 00:30:55.050
used the sink,
1122
00:30:55.280 --> 00:30:56.910
and turned the water off or something,
1123
00:30:56.920 --> 00:30:57.150
and,
1124
00:30:57.400 --> 00:30:59.979
or touched it in such a way that his DNA was still there.
1125
00:31:00.280 --> 00:31:06.290
But then there's like bodily fluid DNA that that jumps to a whole new stratosphere
1126
00:31:06.439 --> 00:31:07.780
when you find like either
1127
00:31:08.199 --> 00:31:11.030
um blood or semen or um,
1128
00:31:11.479 --> 00:31:12.010
you know,
1129
00:31:12.319 --> 00:31:16.050
saliva which I expected to find a lot more saliva
1130
00:31:16.560 --> 00:31:17.000
um.
1131
00:31:17.880 --> 00:31:22.040
If they have saliva or if they have a DNA that's a bodily fluid,
1132
00:31:22.489 --> 00:31:24.930
I think that's really good and that's something that I
1133
00:31:24.930 --> 00:31:26.969
would really hang my hat on and be very,
1134
00:31:27.219 --> 00:31:27.449
very,
1135
00:31:27.540 --> 00:31:29.150
very hyper focused on that.
1136
00:31:29.369 --> 00:31:30.530
I'd be talking to that lab.
1137
00:31:30.609 --> 00:31:33.319
He did say that his detectives went down to those labs,
1138
00:31:33.609 --> 00:31:35.550
which I think is really cool because
1139
00:31:36.050 --> 00:31:36.280
if,
1140
00:31:36.329 --> 00:31:37.989
if I'm writing paper
1141
00:31:38.209 --> 00:31:40.410
to the FBI to go down to a lab.
1142
00:31:41.630 --> 00:31:43.400
The evidence is gonna be pretty good.
1143
00:31:43.839 --> 00:31:46.189
They're not gonna let me go down there if it's
1144
00:31:46.199 --> 00:31:48.949
some random thing that they're not sure they can do and
1145
00:31:49.119 --> 00:31:49.810
you know what I mean?
1146
00:31:49.959 --> 00:31:52.579
because you're spending money from the budget essentially
1147
00:31:52.880 --> 00:31:55.680
and you're withdrawing from the budget and so um.
1148
00:31:56.099 --> 00:31:57.890
And if you're sending detectives
1149
00:31:58.109 --> 00:31:58.729
plural
1150
00:31:58.869 --> 00:32:00.199
to each of these labs,
1151
00:32:00.550 --> 00:32:03.890
that's a lot of travel and travel costs money so hopefully that's,
1152
00:32:03.910 --> 00:32:04.310
that's good.
1153
00:32:04.390 --> 00:32:05.469
I liked hearing that.
1154
00:32:05.750 --> 00:32:05.869
Yeah,
1155
00:32:06.030 --> 00:32:08.180
when he said that several detectives went to the Florida
1156
00:32:08.180 --> 00:32:10.250
lab that stood out to me too because if there was
1157
00:32:10.550 --> 00:32:11.770
nothing to talk about
1158
00:32:12.189 --> 00:32:13.140
like why would you go,
1159
00:32:13.189 --> 00:32:13.439
right?
1160
00:32:13.750 --> 00:32:13.859
Like,
1161
00:32:13.949 --> 00:32:14.069
hey,
1162
00:32:14.119 --> 00:32:15.430
we're still trying,
1163
00:32:15.670 --> 00:32:19.219
we're still waiting for new technology to emerge or no,
1164
00:32:19.270 --> 00:32:20.569
that isn't what they were saying,
1165
00:32:21.030 --> 00:32:21.459
so I,
1166
00:32:21.510 --> 00:32:21.859
I was,
1167
00:32:21.920 --> 00:32:24.369
I was very that gave me a lot of hope.
1168
00:32:24.859 --> 00:32:27.670
I wrote down something else he said that I wanted to read to you,
1169
00:32:27.780 --> 00:32:28.280
um,
1170
00:32:28.819 --> 00:32:29.640
he said.
1171
00:32:30.489 --> 00:32:31.339
Um,
1172
00:32:32.060 --> 00:32:33.400
my theory is like everybody,
1173
00:32:33.500 --> 00:32:34.459
we know certain things.
1174
00:32:34.540 --> 00:32:36.760
We know she was kidnapped from that home.
1175
00:32:37.099 --> 00:32:39.689
We believe she was alive when she left.
1176
00:32:40.099 --> 00:32:41.819
It was clear that he believes,
1177
00:32:42.260 --> 00:32:44.180
he believes that she did not die in the house,
1178
00:32:44.260 --> 00:32:45.119
he said that,
1179
00:32:45.810 --> 00:32:45.829
um,
1180
00:32:46.060 --> 00:32:48.040
and then he said after that it turns into speculation,
1181
00:32:48.140 --> 00:32:48.609
but he said,
1182
00:32:48.619 --> 00:32:49.260
we know
1183
00:32:49.420 --> 00:32:50.540
she was kidnapped from that home.
1184
00:32:50.650 --> 00:32:51.400
We believe
1185
00:32:51.540 --> 00:32:53.280
she was alive when she left.
1186
00:32:53.680 --> 00:32:53.969
Um,
1187
00:32:54.050 --> 00:32:54.530
which
1188
00:32:54.650 --> 00:32:55.180
we sort of knew,
1189
00:32:55.250 --> 00:32:57.050
but it was interesting to hear him like say that again.
1190
00:32:57.130 --> 00:32:57.800
Like that's,
1191
00:32:58.329 --> 00:32:58.449
well,
1192
00:32:58.489 --> 00:32:59.989
we weren't really sure
1193
00:33:00.410 --> 00:33:01.369
because we,
1194
00:33:01.609 --> 00:33:04.510
I think the very first time that you and I spoke about this,
1195
00:33:05.010 --> 00:33:05.449
um,
1196
00:33:05.969 --> 00:33:08.119
we were wondering if there was blood in the house,
1197
00:33:08.130 --> 00:33:10.949
and I said there could have been blood in the bed,
1198
00:33:11.250 --> 00:33:12.449
like they could have blitzed her,
1199
00:33:12.530 --> 00:33:13.489
like hit her hard in the,
1200
00:33:13.569 --> 00:33:14.949
in the while she was in the bed,
1201
00:33:15.130 --> 00:33:16.599
and then when they got her out of the bed,
1202
00:33:16.650 --> 00:33:19.250
they just folded the covers up over the pillow and
1203
00:33:19.250 --> 00:33:22.170
they didn't notice it until after the sheriff deputies arrived.
1204
00:33:22.739 --> 00:33:23.780
Something along those lines,
1205
00:33:24.060 --> 00:33:27.040
but it sounds from what he just said that that was not the case,
1206
00:33:27.459 --> 00:33:28.439
you know that the
1207
00:33:28.819 --> 00:33:30.739
first time they saw the blood was on
1208
00:33:30.739 --> 00:33:33.319
the front porch when the deputies found that blood
1209
00:33:33.640 --> 00:33:34.520
and that was,
1210
00:33:34.989 --> 00:33:35.219
you know,
1211
00:33:35.319 --> 00:33:37.500
that's an interesting amount of blood
1212
00:33:37.800 --> 00:33:39.800
and the fact that the blood was not
1213
00:33:40.180 --> 00:33:40.680
in
1214
00:33:40.859 --> 00:33:43.300
the images of the porch guy
1215
00:33:43.619 --> 00:33:45.260
we didn't see any of that blood.
1216
00:33:46.199 --> 00:33:46.550
Um,
1217
00:33:46.640 --> 00:33:48.790
when he was walking around on the porch and,
1218
00:33:49.079 --> 00:33:52.939
and in fact we see blood droplets on top of the foliage
1219
00:33:53.109 --> 00:33:55.219
that he took from that spot where you would
1220
00:33:55.760 --> 00:33:57.439
seemingly hide a key or something
1221
00:33:57.760 --> 00:33:59.959
and then brought it up in front of the camera.
1222
00:34:00.829 --> 00:34:01.430
So the,
1223
00:34:01.510 --> 00:34:02.060
the,
1224
00:34:02.079 --> 00:34:02.420
that,
1225
00:34:02.469 --> 00:34:05.449
that pinpoints that the blood was deposited
1226
00:34:05.750 --> 00:34:07.130
after the porch guy
1227
00:34:07.349 --> 00:34:08.429
went to the front door,
1228
00:34:08.590 --> 00:34:09.260
wouldn't you agree?
1229
00:34:09.989 --> 00:34:10.399
Yes,
1230
00:34:10.560 --> 00:34:11.520
I still wonder though,
1231
00:34:11.719 --> 00:34:12.020
and
1232
00:34:12.280 --> 00:34:14.379
him on the radio made me think of it again.
1233
00:34:15.250 --> 00:34:15.989
Just when he was saying,
1234
00:34:16.040 --> 00:34:16.199
you know,
1235
00:34:16.270 --> 00:34:17.978
we know that she left alive,
1236
00:34:18.510 --> 00:34:18.969
um,
1237
00:34:19.080 --> 00:34:20.550
if there's video they haven't released,
1238
00:34:20.600 --> 00:34:23.000
there could be there very well could be if they got more video,
1239
00:34:23.080 --> 00:34:23.449
right,
1240
00:34:23.719 --> 00:34:26.219
and the video could be from the interior of the home because
1241
00:34:26.438 --> 00:34:27.540
a lot of elderly,
1242
00:34:27.560 --> 00:34:28.070
um,
1243
00:34:28.080 --> 00:34:28.688
people,
1244
00:34:29.040 --> 00:34:30.800
their families will put a,
1245
00:34:30.840 --> 00:34:31.418
um,
1246
00:34:31.719 --> 00:34:31.989
uh,
1247
00:34:32.000 --> 00:34:35.418
will put a camera in the hallway or in the kitchen or even the living room
1248
00:34:35.760 --> 00:34:38.860
because if mom doesn't answer the phone or whatever
1249
00:34:39.110 --> 00:34:40.429
you can just check the cameras,
1250
00:34:40.438 --> 00:34:40.860
you know,
1251
00:34:41.120 --> 00:34:44.418
you're not gonna put them in her bedroom or her bathroom even though you know.
1252
00:34:45.408 --> 00:34:47.248
Arguably you could say there are a lot of accidents
1253
00:34:47.248 --> 00:34:51.089
happen in people's bathrooms like lots you talk to a paramedic
1254
00:34:51.408 --> 00:34:53.289
or the fire department they'll tell you that there
1255
00:34:53.289 --> 00:34:55.748
are a lot of accidents that happen in bathrooms
1256
00:34:56.368 --> 00:34:58.168
when people are really sick they go to the
1257
00:34:58.168 --> 00:35:00.749
bathroom the floors are cold there's water there,
1258
00:35:00.769 --> 00:35:01.309
you know,
1259
00:35:01.729 --> 00:35:02.239
um.
1260
00:35:03.770 --> 00:35:05.409
And then you can just end up slipping,
1261
00:35:05.540 --> 00:35:05.820
falling,
1262
00:35:05.899 --> 00:35:06.479
whatever.
1263
00:35:07.100 --> 00:35:08.860
The other interesting thing that's happened over
1264
00:35:08.860 --> 00:35:11.120
the last couple of weeks is Luke Daly
1265
00:35:11.260 --> 00:35:12.270
was arrested,
1266
00:35:12.469 --> 00:35:14.800
and Luke Daly is the person who
1267
00:35:15.419 --> 00:35:17.020
was detained initially.
1268
00:35:17.139 --> 00:35:17.260
You know,
1269
00:35:17.330 --> 00:35:19.000
there were the two people detained in the beginning.
1270
00:35:19.500 --> 00:35:19.939
Um,
1271
00:35:20.100 --> 00:35:22.340
the guy Carlos near the border and then there was Luke Daly
1272
00:35:22.340 --> 00:35:25.060
at his house who lives just a couple miles from Nancy Guthrie.
1273
00:35:25.260 --> 00:35:26.219
He was released.
1274
00:35:26.500 --> 00:35:29.379
His lawyer has said he has nothing to do with the Nancy Guthrie case.
1275
00:35:29.449 --> 00:35:30.979
He has an extensive criminal history,
1276
00:35:31.179 --> 00:35:32.120
drugs and stuff,
1277
00:35:32.379 --> 00:35:32.840
um,
1278
00:35:33.060 --> 00:35:34.439
and but the sheriff has never
1279
00:35:35.139 --> 00:35:35.479
like
1280
00:35:35.620 --> 00:35:36.840
come out and just said.
1281
00:35:37.239 --> 00:35:39.949
He's not involved and we've asked him directly
1282
00:35:40.169 --> 00:35:41.610
and he just kind of brushes it off.
1283
00:35:41.689 --> 00:35:41.850
Oh,
1284
00:35:42.090 --> 00:35:43.540
everything's still under investigation.
1285
00:35:43.729 --> 00:35:44.129
So anyway,
1286
00:35:44.209 --> 00:35:45.729
he's now been arrested again.
1287
00:35:45.929 --> 00:35:48.570
The sheriff's office does say it's unrelated to the Nancy Guthrie case,
1288
00:35:48.639 --> 00:35:49.199
but it was a,
1289
00:35:49.209 --> 00:35:49.590
um,
1290
00:35:49.969 --> 00:35:51.030
a probation
1291
00:35:51.409 --> 00:35:52.250
violation.
1292
00:35:53.489 --> 00:35:55.030
It's kind of interesting though
1293
00:35:55.530 --> 00:35:58.830
when you throw all the stuff up on the timeline and you know I love a timeline.
1294
00:35:58.929 --> 00:35:59.000
Yeah,
1295
00:35:59.050 --> 00:36:01.370
it's just all the circumstances are interesting there again.
1296
00:36:01.919 --> 00:36:03.570
His lawyer and he has said on TV too that
1297
00:36:03.570 --> 00:36:05.929
he had nothing to do with the Nancy Guthrie case,
1298
00:36:06.010 --> 00:36:06.370
but
1299
00:36:06.610 --> 00:36:08.070
the sheriff still won't say that,
1300
00:36:08.209 --> 00:36:08.810
and he,
1301
00:36:08.889 --> 00:36:09.959
his house was raided and the,
1302
00:36:09.969 --> 00:36:10.399
I was out there.
1303
00:36:10.449 --> 00:36:10.600
I mean,
1304
00:36:10.610 --> 00:36:11.310
the FBI
1305
00:36:11.770 --> 00:36:12.489
Moe was there too.
1306
00:36:12.570 --> 00:36:13.370
It was a crazy,
1307
00:36:13.610 --> 00:36:13.810
crazy,
1308
00:36:13.889 --> 00:36:14.250
a big,
1309
00:36:14.449 --> 00:36:15.070
big raid.
1310
00:36:15.530 --> 00:36:17.770
You were telling me though before when I first got here about
1311
00:36:17.770 --> 00:36:19.830
because we were talking about Luke Daley and people in jail.
1312
00:36:21.280 --> 00:36:22.060
Do you think they're,
1313
00:36:22.229 --> 00:36:22.350
I mean,
1314
00:36:22.419 --> 00:36:23.030
not with Luke Daly,
1315
00:36:23.070 --> 00:36:23.629
but just in general,
1316
00:36:23.739 --> 00:36:26.030
do you think they're listening to jail calls and it could,
1317
00:36:26.120 --> 00:36:26.570
could,
1318
00:36:27.070 --> 00:36:30.659
could the jail come into play when it comes to the Nancy Guthrie investigation?
1319
00:36:30.790 --> 00:36:32.409
The jail could absolutely
1320
00:36:32.550 --> 00:36:34.610
100% come into play,
1321
00:36:34.699 --> 00:36:35.530
and it should.
1322
00:36:36.080 --> 00:36:36.620
And
1323
00:36:37.010 --> 00:36:40.929
the um narcotics officers at Pima County I'm sure they're
1324
00:36:40.929 --> 00:36:44.669
working their jail informants I'm sure they're trying to develop informants
1325
00:36:44.850 --> 00:36:46.149
it's what people do
1326
00:36:46.370 --> 00:36:50.469
whenever people get arrested and you and you have them at the police station even
1327
00:36:50.659 --> 00:36:51.629
you can ask them
1328
00:36:51.810 --> 00:36:52.209
you know.
1329
00:36:52.294 --> 00:36:55.074
If there's uh any cases you know about or whatever
1330
00:36:55.375 --> 00:36:58.034
they all know that police are really
1331
00:36:58.334 --> 00:36:59.475
um hungry
1332
00:36:59.814 --> 00:37:03.715
for information about Nancy like we all are we all you know
1333
00:37:04.135 --> 00:37:08.715
but the the the people being arrested they know that too and so they're gonna try to
1334
00:37:09.415 --> 00:37:12.054
figure out a way to perhaps capitalize it and this is
1335
00:37:12.054 --> 00:37:14.875
why it's so important to keep so much of this stuff
1336
00:37:15.334 --> 00:37:16.715
quiet and secretive
1337
00:37:17.455 --> 00:37:19.715
meaning the investigators and the investigation.
1338
00:37:20.060 --> 00:37:22.060
Because people will come out of the woodwork and
1339
00:37:22.060 --> 00:37:24.060
they'll just say hey with regard to Nancy Guthrie,
1340
00:37:24.100 --> 00:37:26.600
I know the guy that did it and he threw the watch at the end of the bed
1341
00:37:26.780 --> 00:37:29.979
well unfortunately everybody knows that the watch was at the end of the bed
1342
00:37:30.419 --> 00:37:31.679
fortunately or unfortunately
1343
00:37:32.139 --> 00:37:33.040
so it's,
1344
00:37:33.739 --> 00:37:34.020
you know,
1345
00:37:34.100 --> 00:37:39.399
it's those other bits of information that no one else knows that as soon as you hear it
1346
00:37:39.790 --> 00:37:40.260
you're like.
1347
00:37:41.389 --> 00:37:41.899
OK,
1348
00:37:42.080 --> 00:37:42.760
let's talk.
1349
00:37:43.120 --> 00:37:44.949
Let's see they'll try to use it for themselves though,
1350
00:37:45.399 --> 00:37:46.540
even if it's not true,
1351
00:37:47.169 --> 00:37:47.520
honestly,
1352
00:37:47.580 --> 00:37:47.800
it's,
1353
00:37:47.840 --> 00:37:48.590
it's like a,
1354
00:37:48.600 --> 00:37:49.139
um,
1355
00:37:49.600 --> 00:37:50.199
um.
1356
00:37:51.169 --> 00:37:52.439
Not a game but a
1357
00:37:52.929 --> 00:37:54.389
a little bit like a chess game
1358
00:37:54.729 --> 00:37:56.290
like yeah I know you got me for this,
1359
00:37:56.310 --> 00:37:58.060
but I can give you something else and
1360
00:37:58.530 --> 00:38:00.510
you know the detectives can't really make a deal,
1361
00:38:00.689 --> 00:38:03.149
but they can talk to the um prosecutors.
1362
00:38:04.290 --> 00:38:04.889
Before it gets dark,
1363
00:38:05.209 --> 00:38:07.250
anything else on your mind with Nancy Guthrie?
1364
00:38:07.489 --> 00:38:07.830
No.
1365
00:38:09.469 --> 00:38:10.489
Do you want to turn the lights on?
1366
00:38:10.719 --> 00:38:11.969
They go on in a nanosecond.
1367
00:38:12.040 --> 00:38:12.270
It's OK.
1368
00:38:12.949 --> 00:38:13.919
They're both really good in low light,
1369
00:38:14.000 --> 00:38:14.199
so yeah.
1370
00:38:14.639 --> 00:38:14.689
Oh,
1371
00:38:14.760 --> 00:38:14.919
good.
1372
00:38:15.199 --> 00:38:15.560
I just,
1373
00:38:15.760 --> 00:38:16.580
my last thing is,
1374
00:38:16.639 --> 00:38:17.000
um.
1375
00:38:18.199 --> 00:38:18.959
Back to the sheriff.
1376
00:38:19.080 --> 00:38:19.580
Like,
1377
00:38:20.080 --> 00:38:20.820
I just,
1378
00:38:21.199 --> 00:38:22.750
would he say if it's a cold case?
1379
00:38:22.800 --> 00:38:24.949
I feel like it's not good for him to say that.
1380
00:38:25.080 --> 00:38:25.290
No,
1381
00:38:25.479 --> 00:38:26.120
I don't think he would,
1382
00:38:26.159 --> 00:38:27.780
even if he secretly thinks it is.
1383
00:38:28.280 --> 00:38:29.000
I don't think he would.
1384
00:38:29.120 --> 00:38:29.429
No,
1385
00:38:29.600 --> 00:38:30.219
I wouldn't,
1386
00:38:30.399 --> 00:38:30.679
yeah.
1387
00:38:31.580 --> 00:38:31.739
No,
1388
00:38:31.820 --> 00:38:33.360
I would not say it's a cold case.
1389
00:38:34.399 --> 00:38:34.979
I mean
1390
00:38:38.020 --> 00:38:38.479
I'm
1391
00:38:38.659 --> 00:38:40.800
act I'm actually just gobsmacked
1392
00:38:40.939 --> 00:38:43.850
that it hasn't gone further along and we don't have cuffs on someone.
1393
00:38:43.939 --> 00:38:46.189
Remember how excited I was that night you were out there?
1394
00:38:46.219 --> 00:38:47.459
I thought this is it.
1395
00:38:47.699 --> 00:38:49.050
This is what we do.
1396
00:38:49.300 --> 00:38:50.959
This is how it happens and.
1397
00:38:52.659 --> 00:38:53.889
Not the first time I've been.
1398
00:38:55.580 --> 00:38:57.750
Have you been at raids like that where it turns into nothing?
1399
00:38:58.560 --> 00:38:58.570
Uh,
1400
00:38:59.979 --> 00:39:02.760
it seems like most of the FBI ones I've met at have been legit,
1401
00:39:02.939 --> 00:39:03.399
not really,
1402
00:39:03.600 --> 00:39:03.879
yeah.
1403
00:39:04.889 --> 00:39:05.899
They've been dangerous.
1404
00:39:06.050 --> 00:39:08.189
I've been on a lot of dangerous ones where
1405
00:39:08.570 --> 00:39:09.719
you get home and you're like,
1406
00:39:10.010 --> 00:39:10.600
whoa,
1407
00:39:10.840 --> 00:39:10.850
yeah,
1408
00:39:10.889 --> 00:39:11.649
I bet
1409
00:39:12.169 --> 00:39:13.229
that was a close call,
1410
00:39:13.530 --> 00:39:13.929
you know.
1411
00:39:14.790 --> 00:39:15.929
I don't miss those,
1412
00:39:16.310 --> 00:39:17.570
or maybe I do a little bit,
1413
00:39:18.669 --> 00:39:18.899
but,
1414
00:39:18.909 --> 00:39:19.389
um,
1415
00:39:19.669 --> 00:39:20.449
it's uh.
1416
00:39:21.429 --> 00:39:21.949
You know,
1417
00:39:22.149 --> 00:39:22.270
I,
1418
00:39:22.350 --> 00:39:22.540
I,
1419
00:39:22.620 --> 00:39:25.800
I believe that everyone at Pima County is doing the best job they can.
1420
00:39:26.350 --> 00:39:28.689
I'm sure they're listening to those jail calls.
1421
00:39:29.310 --> 00:39:31.590
For anyone that's in jail and you know
1422
00:39:31.830 --> 00:39:34.830
I'm wondering I would love to get I um I would love
1423
00:39:34.830 --> 00:39:38.729
to get an interview with um someone that does investigations at jails
1424
00:39:38.989 --> 00:39:42.929
to see how AI is augmenting their ability to listen to calls
1425
00:39:43.270 --> 00:39:43.729
because
1426
00:39:44.030 --> 00:39:46.550
you know when we were listening to calls it was a very,
1427
00:39:46.669 --> 00:39:48.489
very laborious process
1428
00:39:48.870 --> 00:39:52.649
uh we would actually have to go to the jails at the beginning when I started
1429
00:39:52.790 --> 00:39:53.909
and then by the time we.
1430
00:39:54.080 --> 00:39:56.520
We're done they could send us the calls which was like
1431
00:39:57.179 --> 00:39:59.419
crazy great but still took forever.
1432
00:39:59.510 --> 00:40:00.979
So would you just go and put headphones on
1433
00:40:00.979 --> 00:40:03.879
and headphones and you'd listen to things over and over
1434
00:40:04.129 --> 00:40:04.479
and
1435
00:40:04.580 --> 00:40:05.040
um
1436
00:40:05.500 --> 00:40:07.479
different defendants would have different
1437
00:40:07.739 --> 00:40:09.120
coded language that they use
1438
00:40:09.510 --> 00:40:13.679
with either their girlfriend or their wife or their um their child's mom
1439
00:40:14.129 --> 00:40:16.600
and or other gangsters they'll they'll
1440
00:40:16.929 --> 00:40:19.100
you know like they used to all call the um
1441
00:40:19.620 --> 00:40:23.419
those uh delivery trucks they just call it um he'll get it by brown.
1442
00:40:23.810 --> 00:40:26.520
And which is a very simplistic um
1443
00:40:27.040 --> 00:40:28.080
piece of coded language,
1444
00:40:28.159 --> 00:40:28.439
but.
1445
00:40:29.139 --> 00:40:33.449
You start to learn what the language is and that doesn't happen overnight and that's
1446
00:40:33.669 --> 00:40:35.030
that's not even organic.
1447
00:40:35.110 --> 00:40:36.870
I mean oftentimes it's it's a totally
1448
00:40:36.870 --> 00:40:38.669
different word with a totally different meaning
1449
00:40:38.870 --> 00:40:40.250
meaning but when you hear it enough
1450
00:40:40.429 --> 00:40:42.689
and if you can get an informant to tell you
1451
00:40:42.689 --> 00:40:45.209
what that word means that he uses it in this way
1452
00:40:45.310 --> 00:40:46.290
when he's talking about
1453
00:40:46.469 --> 00:40:48.350
either cocaine or methamphetamine or whatever it
1454
00:40:48.350 --> 00:40:50.290
is and I'm talking mainly about narcotics work
1455
00:40:50.709 --> 00:40:51.929
but that's what they all do
1456
00:40:52.189 --> 00:40:53.969
and so they'll have the coded language
1457
00:40:54.270 --> 00:40:55.250
and um
1458
00:40:55.439 --> 00:40:58.090
once they once they get the coded language.
1459
00:40:58.610 --> 00:41:01.350
And you start figuring out what the coded language is,
1460
00:41:01.429 --> 00:41:02.719
then you have to write that up.
1461
00:41:02.750 --> 00:41:03.530
And so
1462
00:41:03.989 --> 00:41:06.129
sometimes you'll be looking at a transcript
1463
00:41:06.469 --> 00:41:10.149
and then you've got the coded language and you just start filling in the words,
1464
00:41:10.189 --> 00:41:10.389
you know,
1465
00:41:10.469 --> 00:41:10.629
like,
1466
00:41:10.709 --> 00:41:10.949
um,
1467
00:41:11.110 --> 00:41:13.290
like cut and replace all the words with this,
1468
00:41:13.709 --> 00:41:14.260
and then,
1469
00:41:14.409 --> 00:41:14.929
you know,
1470
00:41:15.350 --> 00:41:16.810
you can figure stuff out and then you're,
1471
00:41:16.949 --> 00:41:18.260
then you're writing affidavits,
1472
00:41:18.429 --> 00:41:20.800
but you have to have informants that'll tell you that this is what
1473
00:41:21.030 --> 00:41:21.590
as a general,
1474
00:41:21.709 --> 00:41:22.070
not always,
1475
00:41:22.149 --> 00:41:22.409
but
1476
00:41:22.989 --> 00:41:23.870
when he says this,
1477
00:41:23.949 --> 00:41:24.969
he usually means that.
1478
00:41:25.550 --> 00:41:27.260
And these informants have been
1479
00:41:27.530 --> 00:41:29.689
um have worked with us before and have been
1480
00:41:29.689 --> 00:41:31.540
successful so that's part of what you put in
1481
00:41:31.929 --> 00:41:32.699
so it's interesting
1482
00:41:32.810 --> 00:41:35.590
it's it's all very interesting it's like
1483
00:41:35.699 --> 00:41:38.050
and even though they know they're being recorded they still
1484
00:41:38.290 --> 00:41:38.620
right
1485
00:41:38.810 --> 00:41:40.030
well they seem to forget
1486
00:41:40.290 --> 00:41:42.330
um you know how you talked about Nano's kind
1487
00:41:42.330 --> 00:41:44.909
of forgetting he was it almost sounded like he.
1488
00:41:45.189 --> 00:41:46.219
Or I was saying that he,
1489
00:41:46.310 --> 00:41:48.729
it almost sounded like he forgot he was being recorded.
1490
00:41:48.989 --> 00:41:49.110
Yeah,
1491
00:41:49.159 --> 00:41:49.389
you,
1492
00:41:49.510 --> 00:41:50.129
you,
1493
00:41:51.149 --> 00:41:52.939
these guys tend to get real comfortable,
1494
00:41:53.030 --> 00:41:53.310
you know,
1495
00:41:53.429 --> 00:41:55.800
because it's their only connection to the outside
1496
00:41:56.110 --> 00:41:56.370
and
1497
00:41:56.510 --> 00:41:57.320
they crave,
1498
00:41:57.429 --> 00:41:57.629
you know,
1499
00:41:57.750 --> 00:41:59.129
their old normal life
1500
00:41:59.750 --> 00:42:00.729
so sometimes,
1501
00:42:00.870 --> 00:42:04.570
oftentimes they'll slip up depending on the sophistication of the offender or the,
1502
00:42:04.949 --> 00:42:05.510
the inmate.
1503
00:42:06.270 --> 00:42:07.469
Well thank you Maureen as always.
1504
00:42:07.600 --> 00:42:08.790
You're welcome thank you for having me over.
1505
00:42:08.909 --> 00:42:09.409
You're welcome.
1506
00:42:09.510 --> 00:42:11.159
Now let's get those pizzas in the oven.
1507
00:42:11.590 --> 00:42:11.989
As always,
1508
00:42:12.070 --> 00:42:12.229
really,
1509
00:42:12.340 --> 00:42:13.389
really appreciate Maureen.
1510
00:42:13.469 --> 00:42:13.620
You know,
1511
00:42:13.629 --> 00:42:14.290
I met her.
1512
00:42:15.120 --> 00:42:18.689
Shortly after Nancy went missing and she's really become a friend of mine,
1513
00:42:18.810 --> 00:42:21.409
so it was awesome to see her and her husband and
1514
00:42:21.409 --> 00:42:24.149
uh I appreciate her as always for making the time for me
1515
00:42:24.409 --> 00:42:26.870
while I was in town close to where she lives.
1516
00:42:27.330 --> 00:42:31.290
Last thing I wanna get to in this episode is my interview with Aaron Benzick,
1517
00:42:31.370 --> 00:42:32.610
and he's a police detective.
1518
00:42:32.649 --> 00:42:33.669
He's also founder
1519
00:42:34.260 --> 00:42:37.250
of Badge Apps and president of Solve the Case,
1520
00:42:37.290 --> 00:42:41.389
and the reason I was interested in talking to him is because he's a real specialist
1521
00:42:41.570 --> 00:42:43.189
when it comes to cold cases
1522
00:42:43.570 --> 00:42:44.070
and.
1523
00:42:45.050 --> 00:42:45.889
Maureen and I talked about it.
1524
00:42:45.989 --> 00:42:46.090
I mean,
1525
00:42:46.209 --> 00:42:48.060
Sheriff Nanos doesn't want to call it a cold case,
1526
00:42:48.129 --> 00:42:48.510
but
1527
00:42:48.919 --> 00:42:50.449
it could be a cold case at this point.
1528
00:42:50.560 --> 00:42:52.350
It just depends on the semantics.
1529
00:42:53.110 --> 00:42:56.500
So Aaron knows how to investigate cold cases and he actually
1530
00:42:56.500 --> 00:43:01.260
has a software that specializes in helping detectives investigate cold cases.
1531
00:43:01.540 --> 00:43:02.899
So here's my conversation with Aaron.
1532
00:43:03.080 --> 00:43:03.209
Hey,
1533
00:43:03.219 --> 00:43:03.419
Aaron,
1534
00:43:03.500 --> 00:43:04.379
it's nice to see you.
1535
00:43:04.540 --> 00:43:04.709
Um,
1536
00:43:04.820 --> 00:43:05.929
thank you so much for joining me.
1537
00:43:06.060 --> 00:43:06.179
Really,
1538
00:43:06.260 --> 00:43:07.439
really appreciate it.
1539
00:43:07.830 --> 00:43:08.129
Uh,
1540
00:43:08.199 --> 00:43:08.639
you know,
1541
00:43:08.939 --> 00:43:10.239
with the Nancy Guthrie case.
1542
00:43:11.300 --> 00:43:13.439
I was really hesitant for a long time to call,
1543
00:43:13.580 --> 00:43:16.080
call it a cold case just because of all the work
1544
00:43:16.699 --> 00:43:20.399
going on behind the scenes and there's still like this dedicated task force,
1545
00:43:20.659 --> 00:43:20.929
uh,
1546
00:43:20.939 --> 00:43:23.899
made up of sheriff's detectives and also FBI agents that
1547
00:43:23.899 --> 00:43:26.139
this is the only case they work on every day.
1548
00:43:26.659 --> 00:43:28.500
But as more time goes on.
1549
00:43:29.250 --> 00:43:30.770
It is starting to feel cold,
1550
00:43:30.850 --> 00:43:31.469
at least,
1551
00:43:31.969 --> 00:43:32.169
you know,
1552
00:43:32.290 --> 00:43:34.189
based on the information that I have.
1553
00:43:34.889 --> 00:43:38.290
At what point do you technically classify something,
1554
00:43:38.729 --> 00:43:38.879
you know,
1555
00:43:38.959 --> 00:43:40.570
a quote unquote cold case?
1556
00:43:41.840 --> 00:43:41.889
Well,
1557
00:43:41.969 --> 00:43:42.090
you know,
1558
00:43:42.169 --> 00:43:42.889
that's gonna be dependent,
1559
00:43:42.959 --> 00:43:43.239
Brian,
1560
00:43:43.280 --> 00:43:43.770
on,
1561
00:43:44.239 --> 00:43:47.199
are there things that we still have outstanding that can be followed up on,
1562
00:43:47.250 --> 00:43:47.879
what's happening?
1563
00:43:47.929 --> 00:43:48.429
And I know,
1564
00:43:48.810 --> 00:43:51.889
obviously from the public's perception when things are quiet from the agency,
1565
00:43:51.969 --> 00:43:52.389
you've got,
1566
00:43:52.489 --> 00:43:52.649
you know,
1567
00:43:52.770 --> 00:43:54.030
almost a year's gone by.
1568
00:43:54.330 --> 00:43:54.689
Um,
1569
00:43:54.810 --> 00:43:55.889
we haven't found Nancy.
1570
00:43:55.959 --> 00:43:56.129
It's,
1571
00:43:56.169 --> 00:43:58.479
it's gonna feel like things are cold or stale,
1572
00:43:58.889 --> 00:44:00.729
but from an investigator's point of view,
1573
00:44:00.810 --> 00:44:00.959
we're,
1574
00:44:01.010 --> 00:44:01.489
we're not at,
1575
00:44:01.649 --> 00:44:02.989
we're not at the cold case stage.
1576
00:44:03.250 --> 00:44:03.489
Um,
1577
00:44:03.570 --> 00:44:07.399
you would have to have all of the things that you're looking at exhausted,
1578
00:44:07.649 --> 00:44:08.909
and you would have to have them
1579
00:44:09.649 --> 00:44:10.719
to a complete dead end.
1580
00:44:10.760 --> 00:44:12.310
And I think there are some things on this case,
1581
00:44:12.770 --> 00:44:13.010
um,
1582
00:44:13.129 --> 00:44:15.570
some of the stuff we even know about publicly that are,
1583
00:44:15.820 --> 00:44:16.429
they're still open.
1584
00:44:17.169 --> 00:44:17.770
Now,
1585
00:44:18.050 --> 00:44:19.649
we're definitely not in the,
1586
00:44:19.760 --> 00:44:19.929
you know,
1587
00:44:20.050 --> 00:44:21.770
the 1st 48 hours of the case,
1588
00:44:21.840 --> 00:44:21.969
you know,
1589
00:44:22.050 --> 00:44:24.169
the first even month even of that rush.
1590
00:44:24.530 --> 00:44:27.310
And it's definitely time to take an approach
1591
00:44:27.530 --> 00:44:30.949
that you may approach a cold case with and start looking at this case.
1592
00:44:31.489 --> 00:44:31.800
Um,
1593
00:44:31.889 --> 00:44:32.729
even though this case,
1594
00:44:32.850 --> 00:44:35.310
I would say isn't technically a cold case at all,
1595
00:44:35.649 --> 00:44:36.149
um,
1596
00:44:36.610 --> 00:44:36.959
but you're,
1597
00:44:37.020 --> 00:44:40.830
you're in a stage of the investigation where you haven't found Nancy.
1598
00:44:41.050 --> 00:44:44.330
There have been some roadblocks or some things and some struggles that we've had.
1599
00:44:44.989 --> 00:44:46.629
But it's OK to take a step back,
1600
00:44:46.750 --> 00:44:47.030
um,
1601
00:44:47.149 --> 00:44:48.909
even bring in some different approaches,
1602
00:44:49.030 --> 00:44:50.250
different eyes on this case,
1603
00:44:50.669 --> 00:44:51.929
and look at what you have,
1604
00:44:52.030 --> 00:44:53.080
getting things organized.
1605
00:44:53.189 --> 00:44:54.110
And so what you think about Brian,
1606
00:44:54.189 --> 00:44:54.830
you think about,
1607
00:44:55.110 --> 00:44:55.229
you know,
1608
00:44:55.310 --> 00:44:55.469
the,
1609
00:44:55.550 --> 00:44:57.270
the first flurry of the investigation when
1610
00:44:57.270 --> 00:44:59.649
that missing person is first reported missing.
1611
00:45:00.629 --> 00:45:01.229
Detectives,
1612
00:45:01.419 --> 00:45:02.030
investigators,
1613
00:45:02.229 --> 00:45:02.600
community,
1614
00:45:02.669 --> 00:45:04.510
we're working to try to cast that wide net.
1615
00:45:04.580 --> 00:45:05.209
We're trying to find
1616
00:45:05.550 --> 00:45:06.179
where's Nancy?
1617
00:45:06.189 --> 00:45:07.689
We're trying to bring her home to her family.
1618
00:45:07.949 --> 00:45:08.469
And to do that,
1619
00:45:08.520 --> 00:45:09.459
you're casting that wide net,
1620
00:45:09.550 --> 00:45:10.790
collecting all the clues that you can.
1621
00:45:10.870 --> 00:45:12.830
You've got digital evidence you're going after.
1622
00:45:13.110 --> 00:45:15.149
You've got physical evidence that you're going after,
1623
00:45:15.469 --> 00:45:18.010
and you have that human intelligence that you're going after as well.
1624
00:45:18.229 --> 00:45:20.110
And you're hoping that some of those spark
1625
00:45:20.110 --> 00:45:22.090
right away and you get traction and your investigation
1626
00:45:22.709 --> 00:45:24.179
moves to locating Nancy and,
1627
00:45:24.389 --> 00:45:25.449
and it hasn't happened.
1628
00:45:26.159 --> 00:45:27.620
But the work at the beginning,
1629
00:45:27.679 --> 00:45:27.870
um,
1630
00:45:28.040 --> 00:45:29.989
has collected large amounts of things.
1631
00:45:30.229 --> 00:45:30.879
Undoubtedly,
1632
00:45:30.989 --> 00:45:33.260
there are thousands and thousands of tips
1633
00:45:33.560 --> 00:45:34.379
being organized.
1634
00:45:34.760 --> 00:45:36.760
There's a lot of physical evidence that's been collected,
1635
00:45:36.919 --> 00:45:37.790
stuff that we know about,
1636
00:45:37.840 --> 00:45:38.850
that's been talked about in,
1637
00:45:38.919 --> 00:45:39.080
in,
1638
00:45:39.159 --> 00:45:40.100
in the public,
1639
00:45:40.520 --> 00:45:40.939
um,
1640
00:45:41.080 --> 00:45:41.919
DNA evidence,
1641
00:45:42.040 --> 00:45:42.820
things like that.
1642
00:45:43.159 --> 00:45:43.389
Um,
1643
00:45:43.439 --> 00:45:45.000
there's a lot of digital evidence that,
1644
00:45:45.040 --> 00:45:47.500
that first flurry of investigative activity,
1645
00:45:48.159 --> 00:45:48.879
found a picture,
1646
00:45:49.040 --> 00:45:52.060
found video of the suspect making that entry into the home.
1647
00:45:52.669 --> 00:45:53.159
Um,
1648
00:45:53.270 --> 00:45:54.629
and so what you're doing is now you,
1649
00:45:54.870 --> 00:45:56.750
in this stage of the investigation,
1650
00:45:57.239 --> 00:45:58.350
you wanting to look at this stuff,
1651
00:45:58.389 --> 00:45:59.250
you're wanting to see
1652
00:45:59.909 --> 00:46:00.739
what all do I have?
1653
00:46:00.790 --> 00:46:01.699
And I'm gonna be honest with you,
1654
00:46:01.790 --> 00:46:02.030
Brian,
1655
00:46:02.149 --> 00:46:03.610
if you go into many a,
1656
00:46:03.629 --> 00:46:03.969
uh,
1657
00:46:04.189 --> 00:46:05.090
investigative room
1658
00:46:05.469 --> 00:46:07.070
and agencies across the nation,
1659
00:46:07.419 --> 00:46:08.750
all of these large amounts of data,
1660
00:46:08.909 --> 00:46:12.860
law enforcement's not equipped right away for this amount of large amounts of data.
1661
00:46:12.909 --> 00:46:13.649
We don't see this
1662
00:46:13.790 --> 00:46:15.409
on all of our cases right away.
1663
00:46:15.669 --> 00:46:18.689
And with this being a case that's garnished so much
1664
00:46:19.270 --> 00:46:20.350
attention from the public,
1665
00:46:20.429 --> 00:46:21.909
so much conversation online.
1666
00:46:22.260 --> 00:46:24.860
There's gonna be thousands and thousands of tips that have come in.
1667
00:46:24.939 --> 00:46:26.300
So what I would want to know right now,
1668
00:46:26.780 --> 00:46:28.020
what do we have?
1669
00:46:28.379 --> 00:46:28.620
What is it,
1670
00:46:28.699 --> 00:46:29.699
how has it been looked at?
1671
00:46:29.780 --> 00:46:31.639
And I would want to take a look at my investigation,
1672
00:46:32.209 --> 00:46:35.500
and I would want to see what are the actual facts that I have in the case,
1673
00:46:35.620 --> 00:46:36.399
verifiable,
1674
00:46:36.739 --> 00:46:37.979
hard facts.
1675
00:46:38.300 --> 00:46:40.090
What are some things that we've assumed?
1676
00:46:40.540 --> 00:46:44.050
And what are some things that are just open-ended and are they being accounted for?
1677
00:46:44.370 --> 00:46:44.620
Um,
1678
00:46:44.699 --> 00:46:44.929
and there's,
1679
00:46:45.010 --> 00:46:47.959
there's kind of two areas I would want to focus on right away.
1680
00:46:48.409 --> 00:46:52.169
And if I was looking at this case from the mindset of a cold case detective,
1681
00:46:52.229 --> 00:46:52.610
and again,
1682
00:46:52.939 --> 00:46:53.639
I don't know
1683
00:46:53.979 --> 00:46:54.739
anything about this case.
1684
00:46:54.820 --> 00:46:56.800
I've never talked to anyone at that agency.
1685
00:46:57.199 --> 00:46:57.209
Um,
1686
00:46:57.219 --> 00:46:58.739
I haven't talked to anyone at the FBI.
1687
00:46:58.860 --> 00:47:00.379
I know nothing about this case.
1688
00:47:00.419 --> 00:47:01.800
I've not been privy to any
1689
00:47:02.139 --> 00:47:02.979
investigative facts,
1690
00:47:03.060 --> 00:47:03.389
but,
1691
00:47:03.659 --> 00:47:03.919
um,
1692
00:47:03.939 --> 00:47:05.360
being a 24 year veteran
1693
00:47:05.939 --> 00:47:06.649
detective,
1694
00:47:06.979 --> 00:47:09.699
these are the things that I'd be thinking about looking at this case.
1695
00:47:09.750 --> 00:47:09.979
I would,
1696
00:47:10.020 --> 00:47:10.719
first of all,
1697
00:47:11.100 --> 00:47:12.419
I'm wanting to know the victimology.
1698
00:47:12.540 --> 00:47:14.419
I'm wanting to focus on that timeline.
1699
00:47:15.159 --> 00:47:17.719
I'm wanting to build that out minute by minute that we can.
1700
00:47:17.800 --> 00:47:19.959
I'm thinking about my victim herself,
1701
00:47:20.120 --> 00:47:22.000
her surrounding family that she's been with,
1702
00:47:22.320 --> 00:47:23.889
little things that where they've been,
1703
00:47:24.000 --> 00:47:24.750
where have other people?
1704
00:47:24.840 --> 00:47:26.979
You don't know what is the gateway
1705
00:47:27.320 --> 00:47:28.340
to the offender
1706
00:47:28.639 --> 00:47:30.479
targeting Nancy and going to her house.
1707
00:47:30.560 --> 00:47:32.479
So I would want to look at all of those things,
1708
00:47:32.639 --> 00:47:35.219
and I would want to look at how robust my timeline is
1709
00:47:35.479 --> 00:47:36.620
and how much
1710
00:47:36.800 --> 00:47:38.639
that leads to things I want to follow up on,
1711
00:47:38.689 --> 00:47:39.739
those follow-up
1712
00:47:39.870 --> 00:47:40.070
conversations.
1713
00:47:40.280 --> 00:47:42.669
And I'm not talking a timeline of the past day,
1714
00:47:43.159 --> 00:47:43.840
2 days before.
1715
00:47:43.919 --> 00:47:44.560
We're talking.
1716
00:47:44.860 --> 00:47:45.340
A month.
1717
00:47:45.419 --> 00:47:46.719
I would want to build that out
1718
00:47:46.939 --> 00:47:48.100
as extensively as,
1719
00:47:48.110 --> 00:47:48.800
as possible,
1720
00:47:49.239 --> 00:47:49.899
knowing everything.
1721
00:47:49.979 --> 00:47:50.050
You know,
1722
00:47:50.100 --> 00:47:51.260
I had a case that,
1723
00:47:51.510 --> 00:47:51.739
um,
1724
00:47:51.820 --> 00:47:52.689
there's an unsolved murder.
1725
00:47:52.739 --> 00:47:54.300
It took me 2.5 years to solve,
1726
00:47:54.340 --> 00:47:54.540
and it,
1727
00:47:54.580 --> 00:47:55.840
it never went cold,
1728
00:47:56.100 --> 00:47:58.030
but it took 2.5 years to solve that
1729
00:47:58.219 --> 00:47:59.939
as they're inching along in the investigation,
1730
00:48:00.139 --> 00:48:00.879
inching along,
1731
00:48:00.899 --> 00:48:02.239
and 2 years in an investigation,
1732
00:48:03.020 --> 00:48:06.300
it finally sparks revisiting what the facts are in the case.
1733
00:48:06.699 --> 00:48:08.250
So timeline information,
1734
00:48:08.479 --> 00:48:10.080
absolutely super important.
1735
00:48:10.379 --> 00:48:10.620
Um,
1736
00:48:10.679 --> 00:48:12.159
I'm also wanting to think about
1737
00:48:12.340 --> 00:48:13.020
our tips.
1738
00:48:13.489 --> 00:48:15.010
What are all the tips that we have come in,
1739
00:48:15.050 --> 00:48:15.550
you know,
1740
00:48:16.330 --> 00:48:18.010
they're gonna be coming in by the thousands and
1741
00:48:18.010 --> 00:48:20.209
we have lots of places we can collect tips.
1742
00:48:20.350 --> 00:48:20.370
You know,
1743
00:48:20.389 --> 00:48:21.370
we've got Crime Stoppers,
1744
00:48:21.449 --> 00:48:22.770
we've got the FBI tip lines.
1745
00:48:22.800 --> 00:48:23.590
There's lots of places
1746
00:48:23.729 --> 00:48:24.520
to collect them.
1747
00:48:24.929 --> 00:48:27.189
What are we doing with those tips after we get those?
1748
00:48:27.520 --> 00:48:30.290
Are these a bunch of printed out documents in a folder somewhere?
1749
00:48:30.879 --> 00:48:31.110
Um,
1750
00:48:31.280 --> 00:48:32.590
likely what this is,
1751
00:48:32.919 --> 00:48:34.500
is a large Excel spreadsheet
1752
00:48:34.719 --> 00:48:37.310
that if someone has tried to spend some time organizing on,
1753
00:48:37.489 --> 00:48:40.459
and you're gonna have all of these disconnected pieces of
1754
00:48:40.629 --> 00:48:41.070
clues,
1755
00:48:41.639 --> 00:48:41.800
information,
1756
00:48:41.909 --> 00:48:43.830
evidence from lots of different sources,
1757
00:48:44.239 --> 00:48:45.610
not talking to each other.
1758
00:48:45.919 --> 00:48:46.199
Um,
1759
00:48:46.320 --> 00:48:48.040
so that's why I've kind of taken this time.
1760
00:48:48.320 --> 00:48:50.459
You don't have a lot of time at the beginning of an investigation.
1761
00:48:50.590 --> 00:48:51.479
It's like a fire hose,
1762
00:48:51.560 --> 00:48:53.030
things that just are just coming in.
1763
00:48:53.510 --> 00:48:54.679
But when we're this far out,
1764
00:48:54.760 --> 00:48:54.959
you know,
1765
00:48:55.040 --> 00:48:56.280
we're 10 months out,
1766
00:48:56.389 --> 00:48:57.560
we're 9 months out,
1767
00:48:57.909 --> 00:48:59.239
we're able to kind of take an approach of,
1768
00:48:59.320 --> 00:48:59.510
OK,
1769
00:48:59.639 --> 00:49:00.560
let's get organized.
1770
00:49:00.600 --> 00:49:01.479
What do I have?
1771
00:49:01.760 --> 00:49:03.620
And you might find some things that
1772
00:49:03.879 --> 00:49:04.800
you've collected,
1773
00:49:05.080 --> 00:49:05.840
have been looked at,
1774
00:49:05.959 --> 00:49:08.270
maybe some assumptions have been made on that.
1775
00:49:08.560 --> 00:49:10.000
And that's where we're revisiting this case.
1776
00:49:10.040 --> 00:49:13.030
I would want to sit everyone down in the room that's looking at this case,
1777
00:49:13.360 --> 00:49:15.780
and I would want to make this an environment of
1778
00:49:16.120 --> 00:49:18.070
challenge all assumptions.
1779
00:49:18.399 --> 00:49:19.550
There are no theories,
1780
00:49:19.840 --> 00:49:23.699
there are no assumptions that can't be challenged and that we can't ask each other,
1781
00:49:24.159 --> 00:49:25.030
why do we think that?
1782
00:49:25.159 --> 00:49:26.300
Where is this coming from?
1783
00:49:26.790 --> 00:49:27.669
And what happens,
1784
00:49:27.750 --> 00:49:29.179
I've seen in a lot of investigations,
1785
00:49:29.320 --> 00:49:31.229
certain things about the case will be assumed
1786
00:49:31.389 --> 00:49:33.790
and they'll be passed on from investigator to investigator
1787
00:49:33.790 --> 00:49:35.770
and they'll kind of be assumed as fact.
1788
00:49:36.070 --> 00:49:37.830
And we miss things in those investigations.
1789
00:49:37.939 --> 00:49:38.280
So,
1790
00:49:38.520 --> 00:49:41.449
taking that fresh approach gives you a chance to reset,
1791
00:49:41.870 --> 00:49:42.189
um,
1792
00:49:42.290 --> 00:49:42.909
reset,
1793
00:49:42.949 --> 00:49:43.520
what do we have,
1794
00:49:43.590 --> 00:49:44.540
get it organized,
1795
00:49:44.750 --> 00:49:45.850
no more assumptions.
1796
00:49:46.270 --> 00:49:47.189
And we look at the facts,
1797
00:49:47.229 --> 00:49:47.340
you know,
1798
00:49:47.389 --> 00:49:48.510
what are the facts on this case,
1799
00:49:48.629 --> 00:49:48.860
Brian?
1800
00:49:48.879 --> 00:49:50.209
As I understand them publicly,
1801
00:49:50.469 --> 00:49:52.110
I think we have a certain set of facts.
1802
00:49:52.169 --> 00:49:54.770
I think we know when Nancy gets dropped off by her family.
1803
00:49:55.449 --> 00:49:58.610
We know when the doorbell goes offline.
1804
00:49:58.729 --> 00:49:59.050
That's a,
1805
00:49:59.149 --> 00:50:00.919
that's a timeline entry that we have,
1806
00:50:01.250 --> 00:50:04.469
and we know when that suspect shows up on the timeline.
1807
00:50:05.129 --> 00:50:07.270
We know that we have Nancy's blood
1808
00:50:07.409 --> 00:50:08.590
on the front porch
1809
00:50:08.909 --> 00:50:09.949
of the house.
1810
00:50:10.330 --> 00:50:13.370
And we know that we have some physical items that have been taken.
1811
00:50:13.449 --> 00:50:15.129
We're working on testing and we don't know where they are,
1812
00:50:15.199 --> 00:50:15.469
but
1813
00:50:15.919 --> 00:50:16.409
essentially,
1814
00:50:16.489 --> 00:50:16.949
and you know,
1815
00:50:17.419 --> 00:50:19.050
pipe in if I'm missing some things,
1816
00:50:19.129 --> 00:50:19.810
but that's what I understand.
1817
00:50:20.010 --> 00:50:21.590
Those are the simple facts
1818
00:50:21.770 --> 00:50:24.000
that we know for sure are facts.
1819
00:50:24.330 --> 00:50:24.729
Um,
1820
00:50:24.889 --> 00:50:26.199
is there anything else that I'm missing on that?
1821
00:50:26.350 --> 00:50:26.489
You,
1822
00:50:26.770 --> 00:50:28.149
you mentioned something kind of stood out to me.
1823
00:50:28.209 --> 00:50:30.830
You mentioned solving a case after 2.5 years.
1824
00:50:31.169 --> 00:50:31.399
Um,
1825
00:50:31.449 --> 00:50:32.580
I was just wondering,
1826
00:50:32.719 --> 00:50:33.570
in that instance,
1827
00:50:33.649 --> 00:50:34.750
is it typically?
1828
00:50:35.219 --> 00:50:37.000
It was that something
1829
00:50:37.780 --> 00:50:38.139
new,
1830
00:50:38.379 --> 00:50:39.120
a new,
1831
00:50:39.439 --> 00:50:40.879
a new person that came along,
1832
00:50:40.939 --> 00:50:41.340
or is,
1833
00:50:41.580 --> 00:50:44.500
or was it someone that that you had been looking at or
1834
00:50:44.500 --> 00:50:47.719
that detectives had been looking at since the beginning that something else just
1835
00:50:47.919 --> 00:50:48.540
popped?
1836
00:50:49.340 --> 00:50:49.540
It,
1837
00:50:49.659 --> 00:50:49.780
the,
1838
00:50:49.820 --> 00:50:50.060
the,
1839
00:50:50.139 --> 00:50:51.739
the people responsible for that murder that I'm
1840
00:50:51.739 --> 00:50:53.580
talking about were nowhere in my case file.
1841
00:50:53.620 --> 00:50:54.520
I had never heard of them,
1842
00:50:54.739 --> 00:50:56.129
didn't know anything about them.
1843
00:50:56.500 --> 00:50:57.280
And it came
1844
00:50:57.419 --> 00:50:59.300
from taking another approach to this case.
1845
00:50:59.379 --> 00:50:59.580
OK,
1846
00:50:59.939 --> 00:51:01.729
asking this exact same thing I'm just talking about.
1847
00:51:02.020 --> 00:51:04.020
What are the physical items that I had in this case?
1848
00:51:04.090 --> 00:51:04.879
In this particular case,
1849
00:51:05.290 --> 00:51:06.699
I had two cartridge casings,
1850
00:51:06.899 --> 00:51:08.300
and they had been tested.
1851
00:51:08.419 --> 00:51:10.580
They had been gone through the national database,
1852
00:51:10.659 --> 00:51:10.820
you know,
1853
00:51:10.979 --> 00:51:11.540
immediately.
1854
00:51:13.409 --> 00:51:14.629
And they'd had no match.
1855
00:51:14.969 --> 00:51:17.209
But going through that and kind of taking this focused approach,
1856
00:51:17.330 --> 00:51:18.520
what do we have?
1857
00:51:18.810 --> 00:51:21.030
We ended up revisiting that physical evidence
1858
00:51:21.330 --> 00:51:22.610
and ended up working,
1859
00:51:22.780 --> 00:51:24.570
kind of running things again,
1860
00:51:25.010 --> 00:51:27.600
and we end up getting a hit on those cartridge casings,
1861
00:51:27.770 --> 00:51:31.629
which unraveled the investigation that I had been crawling and inching
1862
00:51:31.909 --> 00:51:32.409
along on,
1863
00:51:32.449 --> 00:51:32.800
you know,
1864
00:51:33.010 --> 00:51:33.080
I,
1865
00:51:33.149 --> 00:51:33.209
I,
1866
00:51:33.290 --> 00:51:34.729
I used the public's help on that case.
1867
00:51:34.830 --> 00:51:34.969
I,
1868
00:51:35.050 --> 00:51:35.830
I had a vehicle,
1869
00:51:36.239 --> 00:51:36.639
um,
1870
00:51:36.649 --> 00:51:38.649
that was unidentified on surveillance video,
1871
00:51:38.800 --> 00:51:40.060
I couldn't identify the make and model.
1872
00:51:40.250 --> 00:51:41.530
Use the public's help on that.
1873
00:51:41.770 --> 00:51:42.050
Um,
1874
00:51:42.120 --> 00:51:42.199
and,
1875
00:51:42.370 --> 00:51:43.449
but it was just inching along.
1876
00:51:43.489 --> 00:51:45.080
I did get to identify the make and model.
1877
00:51:45.129 --> 00:51:46.669
It didn't lead me to the suspects yet,
1878
00:51:46.969 --> 00:51:49.229
but I collected that information and that's where
1879
00:51:49.449 --> 00:51:50.959
investigators on Nancy's case,
1880
00:51:51.290 --> 00:51:52.989
they have a large bucket of information.
1881
00:51:53.050 --> 00:51:54.590
They have a large bucket of digital evidence.
1882
00:51:55.169 --> 00:51:56.530
They've got a lot of surveillance,
1883
00:51:56.909 --> 00:51:56.919
uh,
1884
00:51:56.929 --> 00:51:58.000
surveillance video.
1885
00:51:58.439 --> 00:51:58.729
Brian,
1886
00:51:59.489 --> 00:52:00.790
one thing we haven't talked about
1887
00:52:00.919 --> 00:52:03.330
and we haven't heard a lot about is the suspect's vehicle.
1888
00:52:03.409 --> 00:52:04.449
How did he get there?
1889
00:52:04.530 --> 00:52:04.929
OK.
1890
00:52:05.320 --> 00:52:08.030
And so if he's taken Nancy out of that house,
1891
00:52:08.600 --> 00:52:09.959
how far away is this vehicle?
1892
00:52:10.040 --> 00:52:10.159
How,
1893
00:52:10.239 --> 00:52:10.439
you know,
1894
00:52:10.510 --> 00:52:11.120
and so,
1895
00:52:11.560 --> 00:52:14.979
they undoubtedly have hours and hours of surveillance video.
1896
00:52:15.280 --> 00:52:15.760
And I had,
1897
00:52:15.840 --> 00:52:18.080
I've had cases where I've had surveillance video where my
1898
00:52:18.080 --> 00:52:20.060
killer was on the surveillance video in a store,
1899
00:52:20.439 --> 00:52:21.520
and I'd watched that video.
1900
00:52:21.669 --> 00:52:22.629
I didn't know it was my killer.
1901
00:52:22.919 --> 00:52:24.600
It's not until the investigation goes along,
1902
00:52:24.679 --> 00:52:25.719
you learn a little bit more,
1903
00:52:25.800 --> 00:52:26.239
you learn things,
1904
00:52:26.479 --> 00:52:29.320
and I go back and watch that video with more knowledge in my head,
1905
00:52:29.439 --> 00:52:30.879
things pop out differently.
1906
00:52:31.120 --> 00:52:33.510
And so that's that analytical approach that you're talking about.
1907
00:52:33.800 --> 00:52:35.719
You can watch a video frame by frame and
1908
00:52:35.719 --> 00:52:37.820
see different things every time you look at it.
1909
00:52:38.040 --> 00:52:40.540
And when you know more about your case as you're inching along,
1910
00:52:40.879 --> 00:52:42.070
you're gonna see things that,
1911
00:52:42.189 --> 00:52:44.820
that hit you in different ways that they haven't before.
1912
00:52:45.159 --> 00:52:45.439
Um,
1913
00:52:45.520 --> 00:52:45.949
so that's what,
1914
00:52:46.000 --> 00:52:46.580
you know,
1915
00:52:47.000 --> 00:52:48.379
organizing that timeline,
1916
00:52:49.000 --> 00:52:50.629
reviewing the physical facts that you have,
1917
00:52:50.870 --> 00:52:52.479
reviewing the tips that you have.
1918
00:52:52.560 --> 00:52:54.030
There could be some information on there,
1919
00:52:54.280 --> 00:52:54.360
you know,
1920
00:52:54.479 --> 00:52:55.360
things might be assigned,
1921
00:52:55.439 --> 00:52:56.340
it might be closed out.
1922
00:52:56.479 --> 00:52:56.879
How,
1923
00:52:57.040 --> 00:52:59.459
how much attention do we put to each of those tips?
1924
00:52:59.729 --> 00:52:59.989
Um,
1925
00:53:00.020 --> 00:53:02.300
and I'd be more than happy to kind of show you what some of the stuff looks like,
1926
00:53:02.419 --> 00:53:02.580
what,
1927
00:53:02.699 --> 00:53:03.360
what a current
1928
00:53:04.050 --> 00:53:05.949
investigation might look like using some digital tools,
1929
00:53:06.219 --> 00:53:06.419
um,
1930
00:53:06.449 --> 00:53:07.520
that we have available.
1931
00:53:07.850 --> 00:53:08.020
Um,
1932
00:53:08.060 --> 00:53:10.139
it's definitely something I'm very passionate about,
1933
00:53:10.149 --> 00:53:10.409
and,
1934
00:53:10.419 --> 00:53:10.580
you know,
1935
00:53:10.620 --> 00:53:11.040
as
1936
00:53:11.340 --> 00:53:13.219
an active duty homicide detective,
1937
00:53:13.340 --> 00:53:14.699
missing person investigator,
1938
00:53:14.979 --> 00:53:15.050
uh,
1939
00:53:15.060 --> 00:53:16.560
I've been with my agency for over
1940
00:53:16.860 --> 00:53:17.959
23 years.
1941
00:53:18.419 --> 00:53:20.739
I've had a huge passion for these unsolved cases,
1942
00:53:20.850 --> 00:53:22.820
these cold cases that go on for a long time.
1943
00:53:23.219 --> 00:53:23.800
And
1944
00:53:24.020 --> 00:53:25.889
what you guys are doing with your coverage of the story,
1945
00:53:25.979 --> 00:53:26.659
even this far out,
1946
00:53:26.739 --> 00:53:27.260
you might feel like,
1947
00:53:27.449 --> 00:53:27.540
hey man,
1948
00:53:27.610 --> 00:53:28.399
this is a cold case,
1949
00:53:28.459 --> 00:53:29.570
there's not much going on.
1950
00:53:30.020 --> 00:53:32.060
Talking about this case right now is important,
1951
00:53:32.159 --> 00:53:33.219
keeping things fresh.
1952
00:53:33.540 --> 00:53:35.560
You never know when something's gonna pop forward.
1953
00:53:35.860 --> 00:53:36.129
Um,
1954
00:53:36.179 --> 00:53:36.790
I have a,
1955
00:53:36.989 --> 00:53:37.100
a,
1956
00:53:37.179 --> 00:53:38.459
a project that I did on the side,
1957
00:53:38.520 --> 00:53:40.560
a nonprofit called SolveThease.org,
1958
00:53:40.620 --> 00:53:41.199
which helps
1959
00:53:41.399 --> 00:53:42.040
basically
1960
00:53:42.379 --> 00:53:43.580
keep victims from being forgotten,
1961
00:53:43.620 --> 00:53:46.080
has a homepage for victims where you get things organized.
1962
00:53:46.649 --> 00:53:48.010
Because these things do matter.
1963
00:53:48.129 --> 00:53:48.570
Um,
1964
00:53:48.649 --> 00:53:49.649
I've had information come forward,
1965
00:53:49.729 --> 00:53:51.050
I've had information come through,
1966
00:53:51.239 --> 00:53:52.629
tips come through that don't come through
1967
00:53:52.889 --> 00:53:54.399
our official law enforcement channels.
1968
00:53:54.610 --> 00:53:56.330
I've had tips come through that the person said,
1969
00:53:56.409 --> 00:53:56.489
hey,
1970
00:53:56.570 --> 00:53:57.709
I didn't submit this to
1971
00:53:57.850 --> 00:53:59.199
any of our reward platforms.
1972
00:53:59.489 --> 00:54:00.169
I don't want the tip,
1973
00:54:00.250 --> 00:54:01.290
I don't want the reward money,
1974
00:54:01.370 --> 00:54:02.679
but I need this tip out there.
1975
00:54:02.850 --> 00:54:05.159
And it's come through other channels like that.
1976
00:54:05.409 --> 00:54:07.530
And so continuing to talk about these things,
1977
00:54:07.610 --> 00:54:09.570
continuing to keep these cases open
1978
00:54:09.729 --> 00:54:10.389
is great,
1979
00:54:10.399 --> 00:54:10.570
and,
1980
00:54:10.649 --> 00:54:11.709
and the media are
1981
00:54:12.129 --> 00:54:13.090
huge partners in this,
1982
00:54:13.100 --> 00:54:15.110
responsible reporting on these cases.
1983
00:54:15.969 --> 00:54:17.530
Solves and cracks cases.
1984
00:54:17.600 --> 00:54:17.929
Um,
1985
00:54:18.169 --> 00:54:18.570
that's why I,
1986
00:54:18.610 --> 00:54:18.729
I,
1987
00:54:18.810 --> 00:54:19.370
I love that you,
1988
00:54:19.570 --> 00:54:20.360
we're this far out.
1989
00:54:20.409 --> 00:54:21.919
We don't have any new developments,
1990
00:54:22.250 --> 00:54:24.790
but we're talking about this case and what things can look like.
1991
00:54:25.129 --> 00:54:25.610
Um,
1992
00:54:25.810 --> 00:54:25.929
you know,
1993
00:54:26.090 --> 00:54:28.330
investigators have a lot of things still to work with.
1994
00:54:28.469 --> 00:54:28.479
And,
1995
00:54:28.560 --> 00:54:30.850
and I would think one of the biggest things that they're waiting on,
1996
00:54:30.909 --> 00:54:31.290
Brian,
1997
00:54:32.229 --> 00:54:34.489
I think we're talking about that hair that's been sent off,
1998
00:54:34.629 --> 00:54:34.780
uh,
1999
00:54:34.830 --> 00:54:36.370
that they've located inside the house.
2000
00:54:36.590 --> 00:54:38.209
They don't have a matching profile on it.
2001
00:54:38.219 --> 00:54:39.550
It's been sent to another lab.
2002
00:54:39.909 --> 00:54:42.260
You might have your law enforcement agency be quiet about that,
2003
00:54:42.310 --> 00:54:44.459
but there's a lot of things going on behind the scenes,
2004
00:54:44.699 --> 00:54:44.820
um,
2005
00:54:44.870 --> 00:54:45.389
with that hair.
2006
00:54:45.500 --> 00:54:48.010
They may have developed a male profile for,
2007
00:54:48.389 --> 00:54:49.830
I don't know who that male profile is.
2008
00:54:49.870 --> 00:54:52.129
They might be using genetic genealogy on that case.
2009
00:54:52.820 --> 00:54:53.149
Um,
2010
00:54:53.260 --> 00:54:54.790
and we talk a lot about our cold cases,
2011
00:54:54.870 --> 00:54:57.810
solving them with forensic investigative genetic genealogy.
2012
00:54:58.199 --> 00:54:58.870
And
2013
00:54:59.290 --> 00:54:59.850
that
2014
00:55:00.080 --> 00:55:01.889
investigative method works because our
2015
00:55:01.889 --> 00:55:04.469
civilians choose to become genetic witnesses
2016
00:55:04.570 --> 00:55:06.840
and share their family trees with law enforcement.
2017
00:55:07.330 --> 00:55:09.350
Someone watching your coverage right now
2018
00:55:09.520 --> 00:55:11.360
may not have ever done anything like this.
2019
00:55:11.689 --> 00:55:14.959
They investigators could be sitting on a profile that they don't match and they're
2020
00:55:14.959 --> 00:55:17.830
waiting for the trees and the family tree matches to come in and maybe
2021
00:55:18.080 --> 00:55:18.810
they're pretty far away.
2022
00:55:18.889 --> 00:55:21.070
Maybe they're like 7th cousin or something like that.
2023
00:55:21.489 --> 00:55:22.600
Someone watching the show thinking,
2024
00:55:22.699 --> 00:55:22.969
what's a,
2025
00:55:23.090 --> 00:55:24.370
what's a genetic witness?
2026
00:55:24.439 --> 00:55:26.090
How do I help on cases like this?
2027
00:55:26.969 --> 00:55:27.090
Pete,
2028
00:55:27.209 --> 00:55:28.649
your viewers right now could help.
2029
00:55:28.929 --> 00:55:31.310
And what it does is it's not giving your DNA to the government,
2030
00:55:31.370 --> 00:55:34.060
we're not cloning you or even seeing parts of your DNA,
2031
00:55:34.530 --> 00:55:37.169
but you choose to share parts of your family tree matches.
2032
00:55:37.439 --> 00:55:39.909
And if we have an unknown DNA profile that matches,
2033
00:55:40.050 --> 00:55:40.320
I'm sorry,
2034
00:55:40.370 --> 00:55:43.010
that's in our CODIS database and doesn't match anyone.
2035
00:55:43.439 --> 00:55:45.350
We start looking out to our civilian partners.
2036
00:55:45.399 --> 00:55:47.280
How can you guys help us find these matches,
2037
00:55:47.479 --> 00:55:48.020
and we'll work
2038
00:55:48.199 --> 00:55:50.669
an offender DNA profile backwards.
2039
00:55:50.949 --> 00:55:52.340
And we might have someone hit
2040
00:55:52.560 --> 00:55:53.770
and they might have far hits.
2041
00:55:53.939 --> 00:55:53.949
It,
2042
00:55:53.959 --> 00:55:54.500
it can take,
2043
00:55:54.679 --> 00:55:55.000
um,
2044
00:55:55.080 --> 00:55:55.280
I,
2045
00:55:55.330 --> 00:55:57.459
I had a cold case that I saw from my agency.
2046
00:55:57.850 --> 00:55:58.000
Uh,
2047
00:55:58.080 --> 00:56:01.239
we went to trial on it this year as a 34 year old case,
2048
00:56:01.320 --> 00:56:01.699
Brian,
2049
00:56:02.000 --> 00:56:02.590
and the,
2050
00:56:02.600 --> 00:56:02.879
as a kid.
2051
00:56:02.979 --> 00:56:06.080
Kidnapping case and the kidnapper was sentenced to life in prison this year.
2052
00:56:06.370 --> 00:56:09.360
But I started opening up that cold case in 2023,
2053
00:56:09.570 --> 00:56:12.679
and I didn't make my arrest until December of 2024.
2054
00:56:13.010 --> 00:56:13.929
During that time frame,
2055
00:56:14.000 --> 00:56:15.100
lab work was going on.
2056
00:56:15.169 --> 00:56:16.709
I had a DNA profile
2057
00:56:16.909 --> 00:56:17.530
for my offender,
2058
00:56:17.600 --> 00:56:18.469
my kidnapper,
2059
00:56:18.689 --> 00:56:19.610
and I couldn't identify him.
2060
00:56:19.649 --> 00:56:20.489
He was in CODIS.
2061
00:56:20.560 --> 00:56:22.530
He didn't have any criminal history to match on.
2062
00:56:22.899 --> 00:56:24.090
But because the civilian
2063
00:56:24.510 --> 00:56:25.469
shared parts of their,
2064
00:56:25.629 --> 00:56:27.500
their family tree with law enforcement,
2065
00:56:27.840 --> 00:56:29.370
we were able to get him identified
2066
00:56:29.629 --> 00:56:31.350
and brought answers for the family,
2067
00:56:31.610 --> 00:56:31.790
um,
2068
00:56:31.870 --> 00:56:32.370
and a young,
2069
00:56:32.580 --> 00:56:32.820
uh,
2070
00:56:33.000 --> 00:56:34.929
a young girl who had been kidnapped at a young age
2071
00:56:35.100 --> 00:56:36.409
34 years ago.
2072
00:56:36.750 --> 00:56:36.909
Uh,
2073
00:56:37.189 --> 00:56:37.870
I didn't solve,
2074
00:56:37.979 --> 00:56:38.189
I didn't,
2075
00:56:38.290 --> 00:56:38.429
Brian,
2076
00:56:38.510 --> 00:56:40.709
I didn't solve that because I'm an amazing detective.
2077
00:56:40.750 --> 00:56:41.510
I did all these things.
2078
00:56:41.790 --> 00:56:44.830
I saw that because the public helped with that and chose to
2079
00:56:44.830 --> 00:56:47.870
partner with us in responsible ways that opens up these cases.
2080
00:56:47.989 --> 00:56:48.290
So
2081
00:56:48.550 --> 00:56:50.870
that could be going on behind the scenes right now.
2082
00:56:51.149 --> 00:56:51.590
We don't know.
2083
00:56:51.629 --> 00:56:51.899
And again,
2084
00:56:51.949 --> 00:56:54.209
I don't know anything specific about this case.
2085
00:56:54.580 --> 00:56:54.719
Um,
2086
00:56:54.989 --> 00:56:56.800
so it can get frustrating when we're wondering,
2087
00:56:56.909 --> 00:56:58.310
has the agency done everything?
2088
00:56:58.580 --> 00:56:58.709
You know,
2089
00:56:58.820 --> 00:56:59.330
obviously,
2090
00:56:59.510 --> 00:57:02.090
all the surveillance video likely is that's all gone,
2091
00:57:02.629 --> 00:57:02.639
um,
2092
00:57:02.750 --> 00:57:02.909
you know,
2093
00:57:02.989 --> 00:57:04.469
physical evidence that you're going to get the house.
2094
00:57:04.550 --> 00:57:05.729
We're kind of locked in
2095
00:57:05.909 --> 00:57:06.909
with what we have on that.
2096
00:57:07.074 --> 00:57:07.084
But
2097
00:57:07.895 --> 00:57:10.274
a lot of that surveillance video that we might have
2098
00:57:10.574 --> 00:57:12.235
canvassing out that area that could really take
2099
00:57:12.574 --> 00:57:16.004
an analytical look going back and organizing these kinds of things,
2100
00:57:16.264 --> 00:57:16.475
um,
2101
00:57:16.534 --> 00:57:17.834
to open these cases up
2102
00:57:18.175 --> 00:57:18.655
and you know,
2103
00:57:18.685 --> 00:57:18.895
I don't,
2104
00:57:18.935 --> 00:57:21.094
I don't know if you do this on your podcast or what,
2105
00:57:21.135 --> 00:57:24.094
but I'd be more than willing to share with you some of the software that we use
2106
00:57:24.314 --> 00:57:25.895
for organizing a case and
2107
00:57:26.014 --> 00:57:27.014
I've kind of mocked up,
2108
00:57:27.094 --> 00:57:27.364
uh,
2109
00:57:27.375 --> 00:57:30.084
Nancy's missing person case with some demo stuff if you wanna see it.
2110
00:57:30.334 --> 00:57:30.455
Yeah,
2111
00:57:30.574 --> 00:57:30.975
can you show?
2112
00:57:31.375 --> 00:57:32.344
Is there a way to show me?
2113
00:57:32.814 --> 00:57:33.074
Yeah,
2114
00:57:33.604 --> 00:57:34.534
I'll see if I'll share my,
2115
00:57:34.655 --> 00:57:35.604
I'll try to share my screen with you,
2116
00:57:35.695 --> 00:57:36.354
see if that works.
2117
00:57:38.020 --> 00:57:38.270
Let's see,
2118
00:57:38.350 --> 00:57:38.659
can you see it?
2119
00:57:38.669 --> 00:57:38.790
OK?
2120
00:57:38.870 --> 00:57:39.739
You should see a map on the,
2121
00:57:39.750 --> 00:57:39.760
yeah,
2122
00:57:40.669 --> 00:57:40.889
yeah.
2123
00:57:41.189 --> 00:57:41.790
So what this is,
2124
00:57:41.909 --> 00:57:43.229
this is gonna be some software,
2125
00:57:43.270 --> 00:57:43.810
and again,
2126
00:57:44.100 --> 00:57:44.379
um,
2127
00:57:44.510 --> 00:57:46.649
I make stuff to help me in my own cases,
2128
00:57:46.860 --> 00:57:49.969
and then I make the software available to law enforcement to help.
2129
00:57:50.229 --> 00:57:52.260
And one of the things I noticed I hinted at this earlier,
2130
00:57:52.590 --> 00:57:52.669
you know,
2131
00:57:52.780 --> 00:57:52.949
Brian,
2132
00:57:53.020 --> 00:57:54.379
we're getting all this data in,
2133
00:57:54.590 --> 00:57:55.159
in cases,
2134
00:57:55.169 --> 00:57:58.929
and usually we're working out of Excel spreadsheets or in a file share,
2135
00:57:59.310 --> 00:58:00.469
different people working on them.
2136
00:58:00.629 --> 00:58:01.189
We don't have them.
2137
00:58:01.264 --> 00:58:02.155
Our fingertips.
2138
00:58:02.385 --> 00:58:04.064
And so pieced together and written some software
2139
00:58:04.064 --> 00:58:06.004
under a company I have called Badge Apps.com.
2140
00:58:06.425 --> 00:58:08.094
And we developed a software called Core,
2141
00:58:08.304 --> 00:58:10.905
which you can visualize all this information in one place.
2142
00:58:11.104 --> 00:58:13.104
And what we have here is we're just kind of starting with,
2143
00:58:13.425 --> 00:58:13.534
you know,
2144
00:58:13.584 --> 00:58:14.864
the basic missing person part.
2145
00:58:14.945 --> 00:58:15.645
We have
2146
00:58:15.915 --> 00:58:16.425
Nancy,
2147
00:58:16.504 --> 00:58:17.225
here's her house,
2148
00:58:17.304 --> 00:58:18.495
we've got it documented.
2149
00:58:18.864 --> 00:58:19.054
Um,
2150
00:58:19.104 --> 00:58:19.215
you know,
2151
00:58:19.264 --> 00:58:20.024
as the investigation,
2152
00:58:20.254 --> 00:58:21.584
as the investigation's gone on,
2153
00:58:21.665 --> 00:58:23.145
we've looked at other stuff that's been public,
2154
00:58:23.264 --> 00:58:23.544
some
2155
00:58:23.655 --> 00:58:24.364
surveillance video.
2156
00:58:24.425 --> 00:58:27.125
I know this is one of the ring cameras from the surrounding neighborhood.
2157
00:58:27.669 --> 00:58:28.060
Um,
2158
00:58:28.189 --> 00:58:31.120
News Nation covered on the guy dumping some trash
2159
00:58:31.290 --> 00:58:31.820
out here,
2160
00:58:31.949 --> 00:58:32.149
you know,
2161
00:58:32.699 --> 00:58:32.750
organization,
2162
00:58:33.110 --> 00:58:35.820
you get all these things on a map and you want to keep them organized.
2163
00:58:36.229 --> 00:58:39.830
And how do we visualize that timeline in one place where everyone could see it?
2164
00:58:40.110 --> 00:58:43.189
And this is kind of what an organized case looks like in real time.
2165
00:58:43.469 --> 00:58:45.310
And we make this software available on the web,
2166
00:58:45.350 --> 00:58:46.510
it's available on mobile,
2167
00:58:46.750 --> 00:58:49.070
so detectives in the field can be opening up things.
2168
00:58:49.469 --> 00:58:49.870
And we,
2169
00:58:49.989 --> 00:58:51.590
we build that timeline together.
2170
00:58:51.870 --> 00:58:52.030
Um,
2171
00:58:52.110 --> 00:58:52.270
you know,
2172
00:58:52.389 --> 00:58:53.149
family at dinner,
2173
00:58:53.270 --> 00:58:54.429
they're dropping her off at home,
2174
00:58:54.510 --> 00:58:54.669
you know,
2175
00:58:54.709 --> 00:58:57.050
the garage door closes at a certain time,
2176
00:58:57.429 --> 00:58:58.780
the doorbell gets disconnected.
2177
00:58:58.830 --> 00:58:59.969
We visualize
2178
00:59:00.110 --> 00:59:02.340
that timeline of information in one place.
2179
00:59:02.629 --> 00:59:03.030
And obviously,
2180
00:59:03.070 --> 00:59:05.310
this is just a timeline built off the public information.
2181
00:59:05.350 --> 00:59:06.729
I don't know anything about this case.
2182
00:59:07.110 --> 00:59:09.629
The actual investigative case files are gonna be way
2183
00:59:09.629 --> 00:59:11.709
more involved and way more detailed than this.
2184
00:59:12.110 --> 00:59:12.429
Um,
2185
00:59:12.469 --> 00:59:13.030
we're looking at,
2186
00:59:13.229 --> 00:59:13.350
you know,
2187
00:59:13.409 --> 00:59:14.580
a witness canvas.
2188
00:59:14.959 --> 00:59:15.030
Did,
2189
00:59:15.120 --> 00:59:17.110
did we even do a witness canvas canvas?
2190
00:59:17.149 --> 00:59:17.649
So I might
2191
00:59:18.050 --> 00:59:19.669
draw out this area around the neighborhood.
2192
00:59:19.909 --> 00:59:21.090
I want to know everyone
2193
00:59:21.469 --> 00:59:22.149
in this area.
2194
00:59:22.189 --> 00:59:23.629
And so the software goes through.
2195
00:59:23.909 --> 00:59:24.070
Hey,
2196
00:59:24.229 --> 00:59:26.010
find all these addresses automatically,
2197
00:59:26.550 --> 00:59:27.070
um,
2198
00:59:27.540 --> 00:59:27.989
piece it through here.
2199
00:59:28.020 --> 00:59:30.419
It's gonna go through and identify all the addresses,
2200
00:59:30.929 --> 00:59:32.030
put all the houses together.
2201
00:59:32.189 --> 00:59:33.310
Let's put them on a map.
2202
00:59:33.770 --> 00:59:33.989
Boom,
2203
00:59:34.070 --> 00:59:34.669
there we go.
2204
00:59:34.790 --> 00:59:36.439
This is all the canvassing I want to do.
2205
00:59:36.709 --> 00:59:38.199
And so then I have this information.
2206
00:59:38.629 --> 00:59:39.159
And you know,
2207
00:59:39.239 --> 00:59:40.199
I can click on a house.
2208
00:59:40.250 --> 00:59:42.620
Here's a particular house over on different areas,
2209
00:59:42.919 --> 00:59:46.810
and I can have investigators go to those and then I have accountability.
2210
00:59:47.120 --> 00:59:49.120
Here's all those addresses we just built on the map,
2211
00:59:49.219 --> 00:59:49.590
Brian.
2212
00:59:49.870 --> 00:59:51.280
Now I have accountability on this.
2213
00:59:51.360 --> 00:59:52.199
Have they all gone to,
2214
00:59:52.310 --> 00:59:53.820
did they fill out the questionnaire
2215
00:59:54.080 --> 00:59:54.510
and you know,
2216
00:59:54.600 --> 00:59:55.699
they'll turn green
2217
00:59:55.840 --> 00:59:57.439
on the map when they've been canvassed.
2218
00:59:57.479 --> 00:59:59.280
So how do we visualize in one place?
2219
01:00:00.014 --> 01:00:01.564
All the stuff that we've gone through.
2220
01:00:02.034 --> 01:00:02.044
Uh,
2221
01:00:02.064 --> 01:00:03.034
how do we visualize,
2222
01:00:03.495 --> 01:00:03.534
uh,
2223
01:00:03.645 --> 01:00:03.774
you know,
2224
01:00:03.885 --> 01:00:04.764
video cameras?
2225
01:00:05.104 --> 01:00:05.205
Uh,
2226
01:00:05.294 --> 01:00:06.294
we organize all of them.
2227
01:00:06.534 --> 01:00:07.405
Have we received it?
2228
01:00:07.455 --> 01:00:08.935
Are we still waiting on video?
2229
01:00:09.254 --> 01:00:10.054
What do we have?
2230
01:00:10.175 --> 01:00:12.324
And so this kind of puts everything in one place.
2231
01:00:12.735 --> 01:00:13.834
We're able to organize,
2232
01:00:14.215 --> 01:00:14.405
uh,
2233
01:00:14.415 --> 01:00:15.945
what's the key evidence on this case?
2234
01:00:16.364 --> 01:00:16.455
You know,
2235
01:00:16.495 --> 01:00:18.375
we've got some blood stains on the front porch.
2236
01:00:18.465 --> 01:00:19.834
We have our video camera.
2237
01:00:20.409 --> 01:00:20.659
Um,
2238
01:00:20.669 --> 01:00:22.780
the black gloves that recovered about 1.5,
2239
01:00:22.820 --> 01:00:23.879
2 miles away.
2240
01:00:24.379 --> 01:00:25.899
Law enforcement let us know they've,
2241
01:00:25.979 --> 01:00:26.179
you know,
2242
01:00:26.260 --> 01:00:28.260
connected that person and don't believe they have anything else.
2243
01:00:28.530 --> 01:00:31.540
But these are kind of the things that we organize and investigate,
2244
01:00:31.699 --> 01:00:33.379
keep a case together on.
2245
01:00:33.879 --> 01:00:33.889
Um,
2246
01:00:33.939 --> 01:00:34.060
you know,
2247
01:00:34.100 --> 01:00:35.139
we have the people in the case.
2248
01:00:35.199 --> 01:00:35.939
Obviously we have,
2249
01:00:36.020 --> 01:00:36.820
we have Nancy.
2250
01:00:37.790 --> 01:00:39.360
We have her suspect on the case.
2251
01:00:39.780 --> 01:00:41.000
Here's all the details,
2252
01:00:41.020 --> 01:00:41.260
uh,
2253
01:00:41.300 --> 01:00:43.600
in one place as we're organizing things,
2254
01:00:44.060 --> 01:00:44.370
um,
2255
01:00:44.540 --> 01:00:44.979
vehicles,
2256
01:00:45.060 --> 01:00:45.179
you know,
2257
01:00:45.260 --> 01:00:45.860
this is the one,
2258
01:00:45.939 --> 01:00:47.610
this is suspiciously absent.
2259
01:00:47.860 --> 01:00:49.820
We don't have vehicle information on there.
2260
01:00:50.100 --> 01:00:51.719
And we'd want to build out,
2261
01:00:51.820 --> 01:00:52.120
um,
2262
01:00:52.139 --> 01:00:54.179
through that surveillance video that we might have collected.
2263
01:00:54.209 --> 01:00:54.489
And again,
2264
01:00:54.540 --> 01:00:56.659
we don't know what surveillance video law enforcement has.
2265
01:00:56.860 --> 01:00:58.979
We might be building out the surrounding area,
2266
01:00:59.250 --> 01:00:59.530
cut off.
2267
01:00:59.580 --> 01:00:59.739
OK,
2268
01:00:59.860 --> 01:01:01.719
did they come in on Campbell Avenue?
2269
01:01:01.810 --> 01:01:03.020
Did they come in on Skyline?
2270
01:01:03.070 --> 01:01:03.379
What's,
2271
01:01:03.620 --> 01:01:03.739
you know,
2272
01:01:03.810 --> 01:01:04.879
what are the key paths,
2273
01:01:04.889 --> 01:01:06.320
and I would want to work backwards
2274
01:01:06.500 --> 01:01:08.219
with that surveillance video tracking.
2275
01:01:08.489 --> 01:01:08.899
Um,
2276
01:01:09.010 --> 01:01:09.860
all these cars,
2277
01:01:10.110 --> 01:01:12.199
organizing tips built right here into the case,
2278
01:01:12.649 --> 01:01:14.080
you can import and manage
2279
01:01:14.379 --> 01:01:15.939
hundreds of thousands of tips,
2280
01:01:16.010 --> 01:01:17.260
assign it to a detective,
2281
01:01:17.500 --> 01:01:18.469
put notes on it.
2282
01:01:18.669 --> 01:01:19.780
And what's great about this is,
2283
01:01:19.820 --> 01:01:22.399
is we can export this at the end of our cases for discovery,
2284
01:01:22.790 --> 01:01:22.899
uh,
2285
01:01:22.979 --> 01:01:24.149
when things go to trial,
2286
01:01:24.379 --> 01:01:26.320
but I want to visualize this stuff,
2287
01:01:26.620 --> 01:01:27.040
um,
2288
01:01:27.219 --> 01:01:28.199
as a detective,
2289
01:01:28.350 --> 01:01:30.000
all these things that we have on a case,
2290
01:01:30.379 --> 01:01:31.100
and that's how we,
2291
01:01:31.239 --> 01:01:32.139
we know what we have.
2292
01:01:32.300 --> 01:01:34.399
So this is the stage in the investigation where
2293
01:01:34.500 --> 01:01:35.540
it's not cold.
2294
01:01:36.020 --> 01:01:38.310
But we're revisiting things and we're taking a moment
2295
01:01:38.310 --> 01:01:40.570
to get ourselves organized because we're not in that
2296
01:01:40.699 --> 01:01:41.770
48 hour rush,
2297
01:01:41.830 --> 01:01:42.889
that first week
2298
01:01:43.060 --> 01:01:44.889
rush where we're trying to save Nancy.
2299
01:01:45.280 --> 01:01:46.000
Now we don't know,
2300
01:01:46.080 --> 01:01:46.199
you know,
2301
01:01:46.270 --> 01:01:48.030
how do we organize different things like,
2302
01:01:48.159 --> 01:01:48.370
you know,
2303
01:01:48.560 --> 01:01:49.800
are the ransom stuff coming in?
2304
01:01:49.879 --> 01:01:51.479
Is this all from the same person?
2305
01:01:51.719 --> 01:01:52.879
Is this a credible person?
2306
01:01:52.959 --> 01:01:54.909
Is this other people duplicating things?
2307
01:01:55.120 --> 01:01:56.659
So there's a lot of electronic data
2308
01:01:56.840 --> 01:01:58.709
on there that we might be looking at.
2309
01:01:58.959 --> 01:02:00.879
And so that's another area that I think would
2310
01:02:00.879 --> 01:02:03.189
probably be pretty active with law enforcement still,
2311
01:02:03.239 --> 01:02:04.360
that digital evidence.
2312
01:02:04.679 --> 01:02:04.889
Um,
2313
01:02:04.959 --> 01:02:07.820
they likely have large buckets of electronic data
2314
01:02:08.360 --> 01:02:10.479
that as the investigation progresses,
2315
01:02:11.320 --> 01:02:12.919
We don't know how it makes sense,
2316
01:02:12.969 --> 01:02:14.479
but as different things come together,
2317
01:02:14.919 --> 01:02:15.959
following up on that one tip,
2318
01:02:16.040 --> 01:02:17.600
getting those tips organized and wow,
2319
01:02:17.709 --> 01:02:17.919
OK,
2320
01:02:18.030 --> 01:02:20.020
that matches this one thing that was seen over here.
2321
01:02:20.679 --> 01:02:22.439
Now we have a vehicle associated with that person.
2322
01:02:22.600 --> 01:02:22.800
Whoa,
2323
01:02:22.879 --> 01:02:25.389
that matches that one surveillance camera that we had where,
2324
01:02:25.600 --> 01:02:25.800
you know,
2325
01:02:26.000 --> 01:02:27.699
a particular car did come through here.
2326
01:02:28.159 --> 01:02:29.679
Those are the kind of links that we'd be looking.
2327
01:02:29.854 --> 01:02:30.594
at in
2328
01:02:30.814 --> 01:02:33.794
a cold case type of investigative follow-up.
2329
01:02:34.215 --> 01:02:34.225
Uh,
2330
01:02:34.274 --> 01:02:34.504
and again,
2331
01:02:34.554 --> 01:02:34.675
I,
2332
01:02:34.745 --> 01:02:34.875
I'm,
2333
01:02:34.915 --> 01:02:36.995
I'm not gonna call it a cold case at all.
2334
01:02:37.074 --> 01:02:38.114
We're just not there yet.
2335
01:02:38.774 --> 01:02:38.784
The,
2336
01:02:38.834 --> 01:02:39.514
that's interesting,
2337
01:02:39.675 --> 01:02:42.594
really cool software and what you were talking about with the vehicles.
2338
01:02:42.945 --> 01:02:44.655
Do you suspect at this point
2339
01:02:44.995 --> 01:02:45.614
that they
2340
01:02:45.715 --> 01:02:48.014
maybe do have some vehicles they're interested in,
2341
01:02:48.635 --> 01:02:49.395
but are not,
2342
01:02:49.435 --> 01:02:49.915
um,
2343
01:02:50.235 --> 01:02:51.475
just sharing it publicly?
2344
01:02:52.899 --> 01:02:54.060
My guess would be is if they,
2345
01:02:54.100 --> 01:02:56.520
if they had a specific vehicle that they were looking at.
2346
01:02:56.820 --> 01:02:57.030
Um,
2347
01:02:57.100 --> 01:03:00.159
they might be quiet on that for a little bit because they're hoping to
2348
01:03:00.340 --> 01:03:02.669
be able to jump to a person of interest pretty quick.
2349
01:03:02.780 --> 01:03:03.100
But
2350
01:03:03.300 --> 01:03:04.500
once that kind of hits a wall,
2351
01:03:04.580 --> 01:03:06.379
that's the thing that you would want to get out pretty quickly,
2352
01:03:06.459 --> 01:03:07.649
just like the doorbell camera.
2353
01:03:07.860 --> 01:03:08.030
Um,
2354
01:03:08.139 --> 01:03:09.969
if you have a car that's connected,
2355
01:03:10.219 --> 01:03:11.179
just like the doorbell camera,
2356
01:03:11.290 --> 01:03:12.739
get those visuals out there
2357
01:03:12.939 --> 01:03:14.520
because that's gonna put us in a place
2358
01:03:14.679 --> 01:03:16.080
to get more success of people
2359
01:03:16.219 --> 01:03:17.060
coming forward with a tip.
2360
01:03:17.219 --> 01:03:18.419
Someone may not have a tip
2361
01:03:18.610 --> 01:03:20.810
from looking at that person on the doorbell video and,
2362
01:03:20.899 --> 01:03:21.340
and their,
2363
01:03:21.449 --> 01:03:21.580
you know,
2364
01:03:21.699 --> 01:03:23.320
their disguises that they're wearing.
2365
01:03:23.830 --> 01:03:25.070
But then they see a car like,
2366
01:03:25.110 --> 01:03:25.500
oh wow,
2367
01:03:25.550 --> 01:03:25.669
no,
2368
01:03:25.750 --> 01:03:27.439
I actually do remember that this car,
2369
01:03:27.550 --> 01:03:29.310
he turned around in this cul-de-sac,
2370
01:03:29.340 --> 01:03:30.530
and I thought that was weird,
2371
01:03:30.590 --> 01:03:31.469
and I remember,
2372
01:03:31.629 --> 01:03:33.070
and then that kind of opens things up.
2373
01:03:33.189 --> 01:03:33.520
So,
2374
01:03:33.709 --> 01:03:35.489
my hope would be that investigators,
2375
01:03:35.669 --> 01:03:35.860
um,
2376
01:03:35.909 --> 01:03:39.350
as they triage that initial holdback information and push on it,
2377
01:03:39.550 --> 01:03:43.449
that they translate that to bringing in the public's help on that pretty quickly,
2378
01:03:43.850 --> 01:03:43.860
uh,
2379
01:03:43.909 --> 01:03:44.149
which,
2380
01:03:44.270 --> 01:03:45.070
which they have with the,
2381
01:03:45.149 --> 01:03:46.169
with the doorbell video.
2382
01:03:46.669 --> 01:03:46.689
Um,
2383
01:03:46.989 --> 01:03:49.090
there are some things that are going to be holdback information.
2384
01:03:49.229 --> 01:03:50.100
The other thing we have to think about,
2385
01:03:50.169 --> 01:03:50.629
Brian,
2386
01:03:51.129 --> 01:03:51.679
The abductor,
2387
01:03:51.729 --> 01:03:53.209
the kidnapper's still out there.
2388
01:03:53.290 --> 01:03:54.899
We don't know where Nancy is.
2389
01:03:54.969 --> 01:03:56.409
We don't know where our suspect is
2390
01:03:56.580 --> 01:03:57.449
and who he is.
2391
01:03:57.810 --> 01:03:58.129
Um,
2392
01:03:58.250 --> 01:04:00.229
he's likely watching this video
2393
01:04:00.409 --> 01:04:01.149
right now.
2394
01:04:01.449 --> 01:04:01.729
Um,
2395
01:04:01.810 --> 01:04:03.429
every case that I've worked on
2396
01:04:03.610 --> 01:04:05.530
and gotten to a murder suspect,
2397
01:04:05.649 --> 01:04:06.439
got into their phone,
2398
01:04:06.449 --> 01:04:06.629
and look,
2399
01:04:06.729 --> 01:04:07.929
they're following my agency,
2400
01:04:08.010 --> 01:04:09.229
they're following details
2401
01:04:09.439 --> 01:04:10.110
on the case.
2402
01:04:10.320 --> 01:04:11.370
That's something we need to think about,
2403
01:04:11.449 --> 01:04:11.570
you know,
2404
01:04:11.649 --> 01:04:11.889
obviously,
2405
01:04:11.949 --> 01:04:12.530
I don't want to
2406
01:04:12.729 --> 01:04:13.550
walk through a whole
2407
01:04:13.840 --> 01:04:15.449
playbook of what law enforcement's doing.
2408
01:04:15.584 --> 01:04:16.864
To try to catch this person,
2409
01:04:17.104 --> 01:04:19.245
but we want to be responsible and how can we
2410
01:04:19.705 --> 01:04:21.645
put ourselves in a place to be successful.
2411
01:04:21.665 --> 01:04:22.584
And what that looks like,
2412
01:04:22.745 --> 01:04:23.475
it's a team.
2413
01:04:23.745 --> 01:04:25.665
Investigating a case like this is a team.
2414
01:04:26.024 --> 01:04:27.745
Law enforcement doesn't own the case.
2415
01:04:27.985 --> 01:04:29.175
We work for Nancy,
2416
01:04:29.344 --> 01:04:30.804
we work for her family,
2417
01:04:31.024 --> 01:04:32.205
and we do that in a team,
2418
01:04:32.435 --> 01:04:33.645
and that involves the public,
2419
01:04:34.054 --> 01:04:35.804
that involves responsible journalism,
2420
01:04:36.145 --> 01:04:37.455
and that is part of the equation,
2421
01:04:37.504 --> 01:04:40.044
the winning equation that makes progress on these cases.
2422
01:04:40.344 --> 01:04:40.804
Um,
2423
01:04:41.189 --> 01:04:42.060
The abductor
2424
01:04:42.320 --> 01:04:43.280
probably watching this video,
2425
01:04:43.360 --> 01:04:45.870
he's probably following people that are coming up with these cases.
2426
01:04:46.199 --> 01:04:46.419
And,
2427
01:04:46.439 --> 01:04:46.560
you know,
2428
01:04:46.639 --> 01:04:48.489
a lot of people want to plead to the people like,
2429
01:04:48.600 --> 01:04:48.719
hey,
2430
01:04:48.830 --> 01:04:49.000
you know,
2431
01:04:49.159 --> 01:04:50.479
feel bad for the family,
2432
01:04:50.760 --> 01:04:50.919
you know,
2433
01:04:51.040 --> 01:04:52.919
think about their family who just wants their mom home.
2434
01:04:53.000 --> 01:04:55.020
I don't know if that's gonna resonate with someone
2435
01:04:55.399 --> 01:04:57.149
who's taken the time to plan,
2436
01:04:57.320 --> 01:04:59.199
is gonna show up with that kind of disguise
2437
01:04:59.199 --> 01:05:01.060
and it's gonna make entry to someone's house.
2438
01:05:01.570 --> 01:05:02.139
Um,
2439
01:05:02.479 --> 01:05:02.830
but they've,
2440
01:05:02.919 --> 01:05:06.340
they've messed up and there's a mistake that they've done and it's gonna be found,
2441
01:05:06.600 --> 01:05:08.679
and it's just a matter of how long is it gonna take.
2442
01:05:08.800 --> 01:05:10.600
There's a lot on this case to work with.
2443
01:05:11.459 --> 01:05:11.500
Well,
2444
01:05:11.580 --> 01:05:12.010
I really,
2445
01:05:12.060 --> 01:05:12.709
I appreciate your time,
2446
01:05:12.780 --> 01:05:13.060
Aaron.
2447
01:05:13.219 --> 01:05:14.040
Super interesting.
2448
01:05:14.050 --> 01:05:15.500
so to visualize it like that,
2449
01:05:15.620 --> 01:05:15.739
uh,
2450
01:05:15.860 --> 01:05:17.120
so thank you for taking the time.
2451
01:05:17.699 --> 01:05:18.110
Sure.
2452
01:05:18.419 --> 01:05:18.540
Really,
2453
01:05:18.620 --> 01:05:21.050
really appreciate Aaron for taking the time to talk with me,
2454
01:05:21.139 --> 01:05:21.620
um.
2455
01:05:22.500 --> 01:05:23.449
And you know
2456
01:05:23.629 --> 01:05:25.389
it's interesting seeing the way he maps it out and
2457
01:05:25.389 --> 01:05:27.770
the way that these detectives can use that software.
2458
01:05:28.219 --> 01:05:28.919
So we'll see
2459
01:05:29.040 --> 01:05:30.060
where things go from here.
2460
01:05:30.139 --> 01:05:30.459
I mean,
2461
01:05:30.500 --> 01:05:31.040
um,
2462
01:05:31.459 --> 01:05:33.280
hopefully there could be a break at any moment,
2463
01:05:33.379 --> 01:05:35.260
kind of back to the beginning of what I was talking to
2464
01:05:35.260 --> 01:05:38.000
at this episode talking about at the beginning of this episode.
2465
01:05:38.620 --> 01:05:40.830
The DNA could still come through in Nancy's case.
2466
01:05:40.899 --> 01:05:41.100
Um,
2467
01:05:41.219 --> 01:05:42.080
it's definitely
2468
01:05:42.530 --> 01:05:45.310
a possibility and it seems like Sheriff Nanos is still hopeful.
2469
01:05:45.409 --> 01:05:45.780
So
2470
01:05:45.979 --> 01:05:46.679
we'll see.
2471
01:05:46.939 --> 01:05:48.570
I appreciate everybody for watching,
2472
01:05:48.739 --> 01:05:50.820
really appreciate everybody for subscribing to my
2473
01:05:50.820 --> 01:05:53.000
channel as always and watching my videos,
2474
01:05:53.300 --> 01:05:53.419
uh,
2475
01:05:53.459 --> 01:05:55.139
and I'll keep you guys posted any developments.
2476
01:05:55.179 --> 01:05:57.320
You guys know I've got my sources I talked to and everything.
2477
01:05:57.899 --> 01:05:58.219
Um,
2478
01:05:58.280 --> 01:05:59.270
and I'll talk to you guys later.