Sandra: if the sales is really getting tough in terms of it's lengthier than normal, and not just for one case, but for several cases, then we know that for example, either the customer need has changed, or the value proposition is not sharp enough.
Roland Siebelink ⦨: Hello everyone, welcome to Breakthrough AI Operators, the show where we talk with founders who have made AI structurally native to how their company works. Not just tool adoption, not just productivity wins, but actual operating model breakthroughs. My guest today tried this exact business once before over a decade ago, and it kind of worked. The idea wasn't wrong, but the world wasn't ready yet; the assets weren't connected and nobody needed the grid managed this precisely yet. Precise management of demand on the power grid, that's the business that they do. Two things changed at once, and she went all in a second time. New co-founders, but the same thesis. With that, everyone, meet my guest Sandra Trittin, the co-founder of Beebop.ai. Welcome to the show, Sandra!
Sandra: Hello, Roland, and hello, everyone, and thank you for having me today.
Roland Siebelink ⦨: Sandra, we've been exploring this topic for quite a while now, and what really struck me is that you built this exact business once before in 2012 and the market wasn't quite ready yet. But what actually changed to make now the moment for Beebop to be successful?
Sandra: Yes. Actually, what has changed from a market perspective are three elements. The first element is that electrification, and especially the distributed electrification, in homes and with commercial customers went further on, meaning people started to build solar systems, storage systems, driving EV cars, putting heat pumps into their homes or air conditionings. And all of a sudden, the demand of electricity has increased quite a lot. But also the profile, how this demand appears during the day. Whereas
Roland Siebelink ⦨: Mm-hmm.
Sandra: in the past, everyone was coming home in the evening from work and then putting lights on, starting to cook, etc. This still happens today, but if the customer has a solar system and a storage at home, there will be no consumption needed from the electricity grid. Instead, it comes from the battery. That's the first point. The second point is that all of these new electrical devices cause quite some issues because the demand profile changes, as explained, and you are not just a consumer anymore, but all of a sudden you become a producer. And this is something totally new to the energy structure and to the infrastructure of the power system. And the third and last point is that assets became much more accessible. Beforehand in 2012, it was still possible to control hot water tanks or electrical convectors, but they were 30, 40 years old, and far away from being controllable or accessible. Nowadays, whatever you buy is internet connected. You have an app, you have cloud accessibility, something that you can monitor and take control. And these are the three elements
Roland Siebelink ⦨: That's amazing.
Sandra: which are majorly changed in this time, luckily.
Roland Siebelink ⦨: Yeah good because as Mike Maples of one of the major VC funds here says, you need an inflection point for your idea to actually make sense at that point in time. And you just named
Sandra: Mm-hmm.
Roland Siebelink ⦨: three inflection points all happening at the same time. The demand must be exploding for you right now.
Sandra: Yes, demand is exploding, but at the same time, it's also competition. And with
Roland Siebelink ⦨: Mm-hmm.
Sandra: the new technology capabilities, also of AI, for example, everyone has the feeling of being able to create an algorithm to control electrical devices of your home.
Roland Siebelink ⦨: Mm-hmm.
Sandra: And I think we have so many intelligent people out there who are capable to do that. I think there's always the real life experience, which makes the difference then. And probably a small anecdote on that, if you allow.
Roland Siebelink ⦨: Please.
Sandra: In the first startup, one of the IT colleagues decided to make an upgrade on the platform on a Friday evening.
Roland Siebelink ⦨: Uh-huh.
Sandra: And I had these - I was responsible for the first 250 customers as a customer support. They all had my private phone number. Saturday morning, seven o'clock, I had roughly 150 calls on my phone, all complaining and saying, Sandra, we all have a cold shower because our heat pump is not working anymore, and we all have cold. The family is angry. It's Saturday morning. Can you please do something? That's an experience you only want to have once, because I was best customer in the chocolate shop on Monday morning, sending out 150 please excuse cards together
Roland Siebelink ⦨: I'm sure.
Sandra: actually with the IT engineer. It's a really simple example. But it shows that technology can do a lot, but experience and always the thought about the customer and what's going on there is as important.
Roland Siebelink ⦨: You already mentioned that your customers are mostly the power grid operators, so utilities, but also to some degree the manufacturers.
Sandra: Mm-hmm.
Roland Siebelink ⦨: Those are both customers that typically exhibit long sales cycles. Is it on the basis of your experience of your long tenure in this field that you compete with newer providers?
Sandra: Yes. There's always competition, because there's always someone who does it - who promises to do it better, more efficient, cheaper, whatever. You always face someone. What we have seen so far is that the customers, especially the utilities but also the manufacturers, are really valuing the support that we give at Beebop, also about the implementation of the technology.
Roland Siebelink ⦨: Hmm.
Sandra: Because it always sounds fancy. You just connect to the cloud of a manufacturer and then all of a sudden you have access to millions of Tesla cars or something.
Roland Siebelink ⦨: Right.
Sandra: But if you look then into the detail, it's about, but where does the customer give permission? How
Roland Siebelink ⦨: Mm-hmm.
Sandra: does it work? And the permission might look different if you're sitting in Belgium or in New York,
Roland Siebelink ⦨: Mm-hmm. Right?
Sandra: the terms and conditions, etc. What is the right point in time that we should offer you that service so that you also have the right awareness? It's not difficult. It's just a step-by-step approach that needs to be worked through. And there our experience is quite helpful from the past. Just imagine you're a manufacturer of solar inverters. All your focus is normally on how can I produce my inverter more efficient? How can I sell more? How can I sell better? And all of a sudden you get approached by utilities saying, but actually, we would like to connect to the customers who bought your inverters. There is a software layer to take external control. If you present that for the first time, for example, to an installer who has to bring that value proposition to his customer, he's like, no, for sure not. They are fully in that stream of I need to sell hardware.
Roland Siebelink ⦨: Right.
Sandra: And for them, every second sentence they need to add on site with the customer to convince him about a sale is already a sentence too much.
Roland Siebelink ⦨: Yeah. Mm-hmm. Too many, yeah, exactly.
Sandra: You need to incorporate the technology and the service in a way that it fits also to the mindset of the installer and also fits as a value proposition to the customer in the end.
Roland Siebelink ⦨: This is often something that founders struggle with when they are indeed in a market that is characterized by an inflection point like this. It's how do I actually reach those customers? How do I do my go-to-market? How do I get access to, especially maybe more conservative type customers that might not even know they have a problem here? How have you guys solved
Sandra: Mm-hmm. Yes.
Roland Siebelink ⦨: that?
Sandra: We have been a bit lucky that over the last 10 to 15 years, overall the industry went quite through some education already on that point. That was really helpful because back in 2011, 2012, you really had to explain everything from scratch, and you had to simplify it in a way that people were not losing interest after three minutes.
Roland Siebelink ⦨: Mm-hmm.
Sandra: Because if they hear external control over my really expensive storage system at that point in time, it's like, ooh, probably
Roland Siebelink ⦨: Yes.
Sandra: better not. I'm worried that it breaks down.
Roland Siebelink ⦨: Yes, or that they lose their job over it, right?
Sandra: Exactly. That was one part that we had to learn, let's say. And the second thing is to always revisit the product market fit.
Roland Siebelink ⦨: Mm-hmm.
Sandra: And we actually just did it in a meeting just before that recording with our management team, where we were asking ourselves: does the product really fit into the markets that we are serving? Is it differentiating enough, or are we just so much loving our own technology, which happens also quite a bit, that
Roland Siebelink ⦨: Right.
Sandra: we go in parallel to the customer needs and not really matching them. And there's always something to
Roland Siebelink ⦨: So maybe we can double click on
Sandra: fine tune.
Roland Siebelink ⦨: yeah, Maybe we can double click on that a little bit more because many founders that I work with, I might say, they convince themselves they have product market fit. And from an outside perspective, it might be a little bit more doubtful. What What are the criteria that you apply internally to really challenge yourselves whether you have true product market fit and where it can be improved?
Sandra: First of all, once we enter into a new market, we have certain criteria that market has to match, and if we find our ideal customer profile. And then we have a look, for example, we check if there is a lot of competition showing up at the same place. If we hear again the same names being dropped by all the targets that we are having, we are getting a bit more cautious because then there's potentially not enough differentiation.
Roland Siebelink ⦨: Mm-hmm.
Sandra: That's one thing. The second thing is if the sales is really getting tough in terms of it's lengthier than normal, and not just for one case, but for several cases, then we know that for example, either the customer need has changed, or the value proposition is not sharp enough.
Roland Siebelink ⦨: Mm-hmm.
Sandra: or it's just about how we communicate about the value proposition. Because
Roland Siebelink ⦨: Right.
Sandra: sometimes, and this is also what I see at other companies, you have everything you need, it's much more how you present it.
Roland Siebelink ⦨: You mentioned that you're also on the board of several startup companies. When you look at that
Sandra: Mm-hmm.
Roland Siebelink ⦨: from a board perspective, looking at how other founders do it, what do you think is the most common problem? That it's a communication problem or it's a value proposition problem or it's mismatched with the type of customers they sell to? What do you see the most?
Sandra: I think it's that founders love their product and their
Roland Siebelink ⦨: Mm-hmm.
Sandra: technology - and that also counts for myself - and it's really difficult from yourself to challenge it on a daily or weekly or monthly basis and ask
Roland Siebelink ⦨: Mm-hmm.
Sandra: yourself, is it really the right thing we are building for that market? In the end, you're getting blind after some time about your own product.
Roland Siebelink ⦨: In Silicon Valley, they often say that founders that are from within an industry have more difficulty to build a disruptive startup that way than founders that come from outside of the industry and are really focused on that industry, because they have more trouble thinking out of the box. Is that something that you've seen as well?
Sandra: Let's say it's more challenging. Because looking back at my own history, the first time I came out of telecoms.
Roland Siebelink ⦨: Right.
Sandra: Would I have known what I'm starting off with, I'm not even sure if I would have started. And I think the two other co-founders have been the same. On the second time, you already have a feeling on what's coming and what's coming next, but you also take your own pre-assumptions to that already. Which means you're falling into that trap of thinking, okay, and now we are at this point,
Roland Siebelink ⦨: Mm-hmm.
Sandra: and this is going to happen. But probably it would be totally different if you look at it from the outside perspective or from a totally different industry. And I think this is always the value that people bring from other industries, from other sectors, with a totally new and fresh mind.
Roland Siebelink ⦨: You did mention you sit on the board of other scaling companies. And I think you mentioned something that, what gets you there in the first stage will not necessarily get you to the next stage. Without mentioning any names, what are some of the signs that you look at to see whether founders are scaling with the business, whether they are growing with the business. Or if maybe they are too much stuck in the past and they're not scaling enough.
Sandra: Probably there also; I can also talk for the past and for myself. I think what I would have changed on the first startup would have been to have different people scaling the company than building the company.
Roland Siebelink ⦨: Mm-hmm.
Sandra: And also, I love building new business models, new products. I can get really creative. I can also scale, but it's more structured, hard work. I'm probably not the optimal resource in that spot.
Roland Siebelink ⦨: So you think of yourself more as a zero to one than a one to ten?
Sandra: A bit
Roland Siebelink ⦨: Yeah.
Sandra: that direction. I can go on the path from one to ten, but then on specific jobs - and I know other
Roland Siebelink ⦨: Mm-hmm.
Sandra: founders who are really on this, I bring it from the one to ten and I'm streamlined and I have the operations under control, and then it's just about growth, growth, growth.
Roland Siebelink ⦨: How have you divided up the roles between you and your current co-founders?
Sandra: We are three, so if you have three people, there needs to be always one who has the last word.
Roland Siebelink ⦨: Yep.
Sandra: And that's Jan-Willem Rombouts, he's the initial founder and the CEO, and then we have Bert Claessens and he's CTO and CPO.
Roland Siebelink ⦨: Okay.
Sandra: I'm responsible for the partnerships and then also for the growth in terms of sales, etc.
Roland Siebelink ⦨: Okay, so you're the commercial side, basically.
Sandra: Exactly.
Roland Siebelink ⦨: Okay, very good. Of course, you do have to have somebody that has the last word. I agree with that. The worst is when it's eternal paralysis because nobody can drive through a decision.
Sandra: Exactly.
Roland Siebelink ⦨: But do you feel like you as co-founders you have a certain role to play that goes beyond just your functional role? How do you separate up the role of a co-founder versus the role of your head of commercial or the head of technology?
Sandra: Just behind these functionality roles, there's also responsibility. There is a responsibility against our colleagues and our employees that we have to take. There's also responsibility against the investors. Also, in terms of growth, in terms of the product market fit, for example, and the stories we are selling and also fulfilling what we are selling. Overall, it's much more that stakeholder management and also ensuring that we are going and growing in the right direction where we fit, and questioning that also regularly. And this is what I always put together. We need to have the respect for the team, for each other, between each other, and it's the responsibility which goes beyond the functions.
Roland Siebelink ⦨: Do you feel like it's important in a startup to have things like core values or a core purpose really hashed out and that people really live those values?
Sandra: I'm fully convinced of that. I think you need at least to have a mission because this is why people join you, because they are convinced.
Roland Siebelink ⦨: Yeah, yeah.
Sandra: This is why they go the extra mile with you. This is also why they trust you. And this comes also then to the core values.
Roland Siebelink ⦨: Mm-hmm.
Sandra: Because if you don't have these core values at least defined and explained, people are unsure in which frame they can move and work. Because I think nowadays we give each other all a lot of freedom
Roland Siebelink ⦨: Mm.
Sandra: where to work and when to work and how to work. But you need to have something which is the underlying elements for each of us, which puts us together as one company, besides the name and besides some contractual engagement, which is the mission and the values. It's the glue in between.
Roland Siebelink ⦨: Exactly. So so based on Based on that, what is the kind of person that is the perfect Beebop employee and what is the kind of person you would never hire at Beebop? Yeah.
Sandra: That's a challenging question. For Beebop, let's start with the person that we would hire. It's the person who shows commitment, who brings a lot of tenacity also, brings respect for the others, and is also open to go one step beyond the normal and questioning
Roland Siebelink ⦨: Okay.
Sandra: also what normally people think is the normal, whatever that might be.
Roland Siebelink ⦨: Mm-hmm.
Sandra: And lastly, it's a person who can have a bit of fun and enjoy
Roland Siebelink ⦨: Okay.
Sandra: on that mission that we are on. I think these are the core elements that we are looking for. Now, nobody is perfect. And if we would find just people who match all these criteria would be amazing. The least the people are on these values or on the mission committed or matching that, the least the probability that they would work with us in the long run.
Roland Siebelink ⦨: Sandra, I always like to go a little bit personal in the last couple of minutes.
Sandra: Yes.
Roland Siebelink ⦨: Where did you grow up? What is the story of Sandra behind the co-founder of Beebop? Where did you grow up? What were you like as a child, as a teenager, and was it always clear you were gonna be a founder?
Sandra: I would love to say yes, for sure. I've been growing in the middle of nowhere in Germany, and it's literally the middle of nowhere because if you look at the map, you look in the center where there is more green than anything else. This is where I'm from. Pretty close to the former border to eastern Germany. For us as kids, it was always clear that if you want to have something going on in your life, also in your hobby life, you need to create it yourself.
Roland Siebelink ⦨: Okay.
Sandra: And we did that quite a lot with our friends. I have been in so many associations during my childhood. In the swimming association, in the music association, I have been doing gymnastic wheel, I have been doing sport gymnastics, skiing, quite a bit, always busy. But I have also taken over quite early responsibility.
Roland Siebelink ⦨: Yeah.
Sandra: Because with these local associations, it's natural you join the association when you are five or six. And then while you're growing older, you
Roland Siebelink ⦨: Right.
Sandra: take more and more responsibility for the younger who come after you, until
Roland Siebelink ⦨: Mm-hmm. Right.
Sandra: at one point in time you take over the full group management and everything. You get a special education for that. Until you leave then because you go for studying or you work somewhere different.
Roland Siebelink ⦨: So it's like natural learning of mentorship and teaching and management in a way?
Sandra: Exactly. Yes, and this is always different. It's different if you teach a class of swimming than if you teach a class in gymnastic wheel, for example.
Roland Siebelink ⦨: Mm-hmm.
Sandra: This is one element. I went then for studies in Stuttgart. It was hybrid studies where you had a traineeship with one specific company. I was lucky to end up in consulting at that point in time. Then you work three months and then you study three months and it takes turns until you're done with your degree. And out of that, I was lucky to help on a project in Switzerland, in Zurich. After
Roland Siebelink ⦨: Mm-hmm. nice.
Sandra: some time, Swisscom, which was the company we were consulting at, asked us if I could not come for half a year to help implement a certain kind of methodology for process optimization locally. And so I went and everyone was like, wow, you're going
Roland Siebelink ⦨: Mm-hmm.
Sandra: into a foreign country. And to be honest, it's true, it's quite different to Germany,
Roland Siebelink ⦨: Right.
Sandra: even though you might not think from a US perspective. And out of that, I stayed at Swisscom for more than 10 years
Roland Siebelink ⦨: wow, okay.
Sandra: in totally different roles. Did a lot of optimization, did a lot in infrastructure optimization of building the landlines, really going through the holes in the ground and thinking about
Roland Siebelink ⦨: Mm-hmm.
Sandra: how to optimize the process. Did my MBA in between and ended up in strategy. And while I was working in strategy, I had first contact with smart meter connection.
Roland Siebelink ⦨: Okay.
Sandra: That was totally new at that point in time that a smart meter would need to have a SIM card.
Roland Siebelink ⦨: Right.
Sandra: That was the product we were developing in the end. And then our CEO got a bit of pressure from the Swiss government and came and said, guys, we need to do something in energy. And we're
Roland Siebelink ⦨: Mm-hmm.
Sandra: like, Yeah, well, whatever. We do the smart metering. And it was like, no,
Roland Siebelink ⦨: Ha ha ha.
Sandra: something disruptive, which brings Switzerland away from nuclear power. And this was the start of Tico Energy solution. I started there from scratch,
Roland Siebelink ⦨: let's see.
Sandra: almost like a second time, because the only thing I knew was my German plug doesn't fit into the Swiss socket.
Roland Siebelink ⦨: Right.
Sandra: But I was not aware on why that was. It was just it
Roland Siebelink ⦨: Ha ha ha.
Sandra: doesn't fit. And so this was the starting point for myself getting into the electricity industry.
Roland Siebelink ⦨: Very cool. Was there in any point in time in your career somebody that really inspired you to get the courage to start a company by yourself? Somebody that you consider an inspiration or a mentor?
Sandra: Yes, actually it was the at that point in time the CEO of Swisscom,
Roland Siebelink ⦨: Okay.
Sandra: Carsten Schloter at that time, who unfortunately died meanwhile. But he was really an inspirational person and who always
Roland Siebelink ⦨: Is it?
Sandra: said, if we see a possibility and if there is a market, if you see a customer fit or a customer need, then let's go for it. Because the future will not look as today. The future will
Roland Siebelink ⦨: Mm-hmm.
Sandra: be different, so let's help to shape that future instead of just being passive and waiting what is going to come. And this was really always impressive, also how he supported it, also getting it through the management team at Swisscom, getting it through the board, where no one was aware of electricity.
Roland Siebelink ⦨: Right.
Sandra: Everyone was just thinking in data packages and IoT connection.
Roland Siebelink ⦨: Of course, yes, yes, yes.
Sandra: That was really a person who inspired a lot.
Roland Siebelink ⦨: Mm-hmm. Okay. Yes, an unfortunate ending indeed ~ for Carsten Schloter. Sandra, where can people get more information about Beebop and what should they download or look out for in terms of an asset about the company that they could get more information about?
Sandra: Yes. On one side, we have the website, which is beebop.ai. There is also a blog section, so if you're interested in exploring a bit the electricity or power systems of the world, this is a really interesting block where you can have everything from customer and business model focus down to really geeky algorithm explanations really
Roland Siebelink ⦨: cool.
Sandra: into the far technical details. I think it's great to have a bit of a broadening focus on that one. The second one is follow us on LinkedIn. We regularly bring updates, also with all the different utilities we work and having specific case studies, which are normally the most interesting part on how does it look in
Roland Siebelink ⦨: course, yeah.
Sandra: reality.
Roland Siebelink ⦨: Okay, very good. And for those that want an introduction to Sandra and they know me already, they don't know Sandra yet, I'm happy to always provide the introduction through LinkedIn as well.
Sandra: For sure.
Roland Siebelink ⦨: Sandra, this has been an amazing interview. Thank you so much for coming on Breakthrough AI Operators. I think you're gonna be having a huge impact in this world, so I'm very happy to have had you on the show. And of course, next week we will have another founder AI operator on the show, not quite as good as Sandra, most likely, but still it should be an interesting episode as well, so please stay tuned, everyone.
Roland Siebelink ⦨: Hello everyone, welcome to Breakthrough AI Operators, the show where we talk with founders who have made AI structurally native to how their company works. Not just tool adoption, not just productivity wins, but actual operating model breakthroughs. My guest today tried this exact business once before over a decade ago, and it kind of worked. The idea wasn't wrong, but the world wasn't ready yet; the assets weren't connected and nobody needed the grid managed this precisely yet. Precise management of demand on the power grid, that's the business that they do. Two things changed at once, and she went all in a second time. New co-founders, but the same thesis. With that, everyone, meet my guest Sandra Trittin, the co-founder of Beebop.ai. Welcome to the show, Sandra!
Sandra: Hello, Roland, and hello, everyone, and thank you for having me today.
Roland Siebelink ⦨: Sandra, we've been exploring this topic for quite a while now, and what really struck me is that you built this exact business once before in 2012 and the market wasn't quite ready yet. But what actually changed to make now the moment for Beebop to be successful?
Sandra: Yes. Actually, what has changed from a market perspective are three elements. The first element is that electrification, and especially the distributed electrification, in homes and with commercial customers went further on, meaning people started to build solar systems, storage systems, driving EV cars, putting heat pumps into their homes or air conditionings. And all of a sudden, the demand of electricity has increased quite a lot. But also the profile, how this demand appears during the day. Whereas
Roland Siebelink ⦨: Mm-hmm.
Sandra: in the past, everyone was coming home in the evening from work and then putting lights on, starting to cook, etc. This still happens today, but if the customer has a solar system and a storage at home, there will be no consumption needed from the electricity grid. Instead, it comes from the battery. That's the first point. The second point is that all of these new electrical devices cause quite some issues because the demand profile changes, as explained, and you are not just a consumer anymore, but all of a sudden you become a producer. And this is something totally new to the energy structure and to the infrastructure of the power system. And the third and last point is that assets became much more accessible. Beforehand in 2012, it was still possible to control hot water tanks or electrical convectors, but they were 30, 40 years old, and far away from being controllable or accessible. Nowadays, whatever you buy is internet connected. You have an app, you have cloud accessibility, something that you can monitor and take control. And these are the three elements
Roland Siebelink ⦨: That's amazing.
Sandra: which are majorly changed in this time, luckily.
Roland Siebelink ⦨: Yeah good because as Mike Maples of one of the major VC funds here says, you need an inflection point for your idea to actually make sense at that point in time. And you just named
Sandra: Mm-hmm.
Roland Siebelink ⦨: three inflection points all happening at the same time. The demand must be exploding for you right now.
Sandra: Yes, demand is exploding, but at the same time, it's also competition. And with
Roland Siebelink ⦨: Mm-hmm.
Sandra: the new technology capabilities, also of AI, for example, everyone has the feeling of being able to create an algorithm to control electrical devices of your home.
Roland Siebelink ⦨: Mm-hmm.
Sandra: And I think we have so many intelligent people out there who are capable to do that. I think there's always the real life experience, which makes the difference then. And probably a small anecdote on that, if you allow.
Roland Siebelink ⦨: Please.
Sandra: In the first startup, one of the IT colleagues decided to make an upgrade on the platform on a Friday evening.
Roland Siebelink ⦨: Uh-huh.
Sandra: And I had these - I was responsible for the first 250 customers as a customer support. They all had my private phone number. Saturday morning, seven o'clock, I had roughly 150 calls on my phone, all complaining and saying, Sandra, we all have a cold shower because our heat pump is not working anymore, and we all have cold. The family is angry. It's Saturday morning. Can you please do something? That's an experience you only want to have once, because I was best customer in the chocolate shop on Monday morning, sending out 150 please excuse cards together
Roland Siebelink ⦨: I'm sure.
Sandra: actually with the IT engineer. It's a really simple example. But it shows that technology can do a lot, but experience and always the thought about the customer and what's going on there is as important.
Roland Siebelink ⦨: You already mentioned that your customers are mostly the power grid operators, so utilities, but also to some degree the manufacturers.
Sandra: Mm-hmm.
Roland Siebelink ⦨: Those are both customers that typically exhibit long sales cycles. Is it on the basis of your experience of your long tenure in this field that you compete with newer providers?
Sandra: Yes. There's always competition, because there's always someone who does it - who promises to do it better, more efficient, cheaper, whatever. You always face someone. What we have seen so far is that the customers, especially the utilities but also the manufacturers, are really valuing the support that we give at Beebop, also about the implementation of the technology.
Roland Siebelink ⦨: Hmm.
Sandra: Because it always sounds fancy. You just connect to the cloud of a manufacturer and then all of a sudden you have access to millions of Tesla cars or something.
Roland Siebelink ⦨: Right.
Sandra: But if you look then into the detail, it's about, but where does the customer give permission? How
Roland Siebelink ⦨: Mm-hmm.
Sandra: does it work? And the permission might look different if you're sitting in Belgium or in New York,
Roland Siebelink ⦨: Mm-hmm. Right?
Sandra: the terms and conditions, etc. What is the right point in time that we should offer you that service so that you also have the right awareness? It's not difficult. It's just a step-by-step approach that needs to be worked through. And there our experience is quite helpful from the past. Just imagine you're a manufacturer of solar inverters. All your focus is normally on how can I produce my inverter more efficient? How can I sell more? How can I sell better? And all of a sudden you get approached by utilities saying, but actually, we would like to connect to the customers who bought your inverters. There is a software layer to take external control. If you present that for the first time, for example, to an installer who has to bring that value proposition to his customer, he's like, no, for sure not. They are fully in that stream of I need to sell hardware.
Roland Siebelink ⦨: Right.
Sandra: And for them, every second sentence they need to add on site with the customer to convince him about a sale is already a sentence too much.
Roland Siebelink ⦨: Yeah. Mm-hmm. Too many, yeah, exactly.
Sandra: You need to incorporate the technology and the service in a way that it fits also to the mindset of the installer and also fits as a value proposition to the customer in the end.
Roland Siebelink ⦨: This is often something that founders struggle with when they are indeed in a market that is characterized by an inflection point like this. It's how do I actually reach those customers? How do I do my go-to-market? How do I get access to, especially maybe more conservative type customers that might not even know they have a problem here? How have you guys solved
Sandra: Mm-hmm. Yes.
Roland Siebelink ⦨: that?
Sandra: We have been a bit lucky that over the last 10 to 15 years, overall the industry went quite through some education already on that point. That was really helpful because back in 2011, 2012, you really had to explain everything from scratch, and you had to simplify it in a way that people were not losing interest after three minutes.
Roland Siebelink ⦨: Mm-hmm.
Sandra: Because if they hear external control over my really expensive storage system at that point in time, it's like, ooh, probably
Roland Siebelink ⦨: Yes.
Sandra: better not. I'm worried that it breaks down.
Roland Siebelink ⦨: Yes, or that they lose their job over it, right?
Sandra: Exactly. That was one part that we had to learn, let's say. And the second thing is to always revisit the product market fit.
Roland Siebelink ⦨: Mm-hmm.
Sandra: And we actually just did it in a meeting just before that recording with our management team, where we were asking ourselves: does the product really fit into the markets that we are serving? Is it differentiating enough, or are we just so much loving our own technology, which happens also quite a bit, that
Roland Siebelink ⦨: Right.
Sandra: we go in parallel to the customer needs and not really matching them. And there's always something to
Roland Siebelink ⦨: So maybe we can double click on
Sandra: fine tune.
Roland Siebelink ⦨: yeah, Maybe we can double click on that a little bit more because many founders that I work with, I might say, they convince themselves they have product market fit. And from an outside perspective, it might be a little bit more doubtful. What What are the criteria that you apply internally to really challenge yourselves whether you have true product market fit and where it can be improved?
Sandra: First of all, once we enter into a new market, we have certain criteria that market has to match, and if we find our ideal customer profile. And then we have a look, for example, we check if there is a lot of competition showing up at the same place. If we hear again the same names being dropped by all the targets that we are having, we are getting a bit more cautious because then there's potentially not enough differentiation.
Roland Siebelink ⦨: Mm-hmm.
Sandra: That's one thing. The second thing is if the sales is really getting tough in terms of it's lengthier than normal, and not just for one case, but for several cases, then we know that for example, either the customer need has changed, or the value proposition is not sharp enough.
Roland Siebelink ⦨: Mm-hmm.
Sandra: or it's just about how we communicate about the value proposition. Because
Roland Siebelink ⦨: Right.
Sandra: sometimes, and this is also what I see at other companies, you have everything you need, it's much more how you present it.
Roland Siebelink ⦨: You mentioned that you're also on the board of several startup companies. When you look at that
Sandra: Mm-hmm.
Roland Siebelink ⦨: from a board perspective, looking at how other founders do it, what do you think is the most common problem? That it's a communication problem or it's a value proposition problem or it's mismatched with the type of customers they sell to? What do you see the most?
Sandra: I think it's that founders love their product and their
Roland Siebelink ⦨: Mm-hmm.
Sandra: technology - and that also counts for myself - and it's really difficult from yourself to challenge it on a daily or weekly or monthly basis and ask
Roland Siebelink ⦨: Mm-hmm.
Sandra: yourself, is it really the right thing we are building for that market? In the end, you're getting blind after some time about your own product.
Roland Siebelink ⦨: In Silicon Valley, they often say that founders that are from within an industry have more difficulty to build a disruptive startup that way than founders that come from outside of the industry and are really focused on that industry, because they have more trouble thinking out of the box. Is that something that you've seen as well?
Sandra: Let's say it's more challenging. Because looking back at my own history, the first time I came out of telecoms.
Roland Siebelink ⦨: Right.
Sandra: Would I have known what I'm starting off with, I'm not even sure if I would have started. And I think the two other co-founders have been the same. On the second time, you already have a feeling on what's coming and what's coming next, but you also take your own pre-assumptions to that already. Which means you're falling into that trap of thinking, okay, and now we are at this point,
Roland Siebelink ⦨: Mm-hmm.
Sandra: and this is going to happen. But probably it would be totally different if you look at it from the outside perspective or from a totally different industry. And I think this is always the value that people bring from other industries, from other sectors, with a totally new and fresh mind.
Roland Siebelink ⦨: You did mention you sit on the board of other scaling companies. And I think you mentioned something that, what gets you there in the first stage will not necessarily get you to the next stage. Without mentioning any names, what are some of the signs that you look at to see whether founders are scaling with the business, whether they are growing with the business. Or if maybe they are too much stuck in the past and they're not scaling enough.
Sandra: Probably there also; I can also talk for the past and for myself. I think what I would have changed on the first startup would have been to have different people scaling the company than building the company.
Roland Siebelink ⦨: Mm-hmm.
Sandra: And also, I love building new business models, new products. I can get really creative. I can also scale, but it's more structured, hard work. I'm probably not the optimal resource in that spot.
Roland Siebelink ⦨: So you think of yourself more as a zero to one than a one to ten?
Sandra: A bit
Roland Siebelink ⦨: Yeah.
Sandra: that direction. I can go on the path from one to ten, but then on specific jobs - and I know other
Roland Siebelink ⦨: Mm-hmm.
Sandra: founders who are really on this, I bring it from the one to ten and I'm streamlined and I have the operations under control, and then it's just about growth, growth, growth.
Roland Siebelink ⦨: How have you divided up the roles between you and your current co-founders?
Sandra: We are three, so if you have three people, there needs to be always one who has the last word.
Roland Siebelink ⦨: Yep.
Sandra: And that's Jan-Willem Rombouts, he's the initial founder and the CEO, and then we have Bert Claessens and he's CTO and CPO.
Roland Siebelink ⦨: Okay.
Sandra: I'm responsible for the partnerships and then also for the growth in terms of sales, etc.
Roland Siebelink ⦨: Okay, so you're the commercial side, basically.
Sandra: Exactly.
Roland Siebelink ⦨: Okay, very good. Of course, you do have to have somebody that has the last word. I agree with that. The worst is when it's eternal paralysis because nobody can drive through a decision.
Sandra: Exactly.
Roland Siebelink ⦨: But do you feel like you as co-founders you have a certain role to play that goes beyond just your functional role? How do you separate up the role of a co-founder versus the role of your head of commercial or the head of technology?
Sandra: Just behind these functionality roles, there's also responsibility. There is a responsibility against our colleagues and our employees that we have to take. There's also responsibility against the investors. Also, in terms of growth, in terms of the product market fit, for example, and the stories we are selling and also fulfilling what we are selling. Overall, it's much more that stakeholder management and also ensuring that we are going and growing in the right direction where we fit, and questioning that also regularly. And this is what I always put together. We need to have the respect for the team, for each other, between each other, and it's the responsibility which goes beyond the functions.
Roland Siebelink ⦨: Do you feel like it's important in a startup to have things like core values or a core purpose really hashed out and that people really live those values?
Sandra: I'm fully convinced of that. I think you need at least to have a mission because this is why people join you, because they are convinced.
Roland Siebelink ⦨: Yeah, yeah.
Sandra: This is why they go the extra mile with you. This is also why they trust you. And this comes also then to the core values.
Roland Siebelink ⦨: Mm-hmm.
Sandra: Because if you don't have these core values at least defined and explained, people are unsure in which frame they can move and work. Because I think nowadays we give each other all a lot of freedom
Roland Siebelink ⦨: Mm.
Sandra: where to work and when to work and how to work. But you need to have something which is the underlying elements for each of us, which puts us together as one company, besides the name and besides some contractual engagement, which is the mission and the values. It's the glue in between.
Roland Siebelink ⦨: Exactly. So so based on Based on that, what is the kind of person that is the perfect Beebop employee and what is the kind of person you would never hire at Beebop? Yeah.
Sandra: That's a challenging question. For Beebop, let's start with the person that we would hire. It's the person who shows commitment, who brings a lot of tenacity also, brings respect for the others, and is also open to go one step beyond the normal and questioning
Roland Siebelink ⦨: Okay.
Sandra: also what normally people think is the normal, whatever that might be.
Roland Siebelink ⦨: Mm-hmm.
Sandra: And lastly, it's a person who can have a bit of fun and enjoy
Roland Siebelink ⦨: Okay.
Sandra: on that mission that we are on. I think these are the core elements that we are looking for. Now, nobody is perfect. And if we would find just people who match all these criteria would be amazing. The least the people are on these values or on the mission committed or matching that, the least the probability that they would work with us in the long run.
Roland Siebelink ⦨: Sandra, I always like to go a little bit personal in the last couple of minutes.
Sandra: Yes.
Roland Siebelink ⦨: Where did you grow up? What is the story of Sandra behind the co-founder of Beebop? Where did you grow up? What were you like as a child, as a teenager, and was it always clear you were gonna be a founder?
Sandra: I would love to say yes, for sure. I've been growing in the middle of nowhere in Germany, and it's literally the middle of nowhere because if you look at the map, you look in the center where there is more green than anything else. This is where I'm from. Pretty close to the former border to eastern Germany. For us as kids, it was always clear that if you want to have something going on in your life, also in your hobby life, you need to create it yourself.
Roland Siebelink ⦨: Okay.
Sandra: And we did that quite a lot with our friends. I have been in so many associations during my childhood. In the swimming association, in the music association, I have been doing gymnastic wheel, I have been doing sport gymnastics, skiing, quite a bit, always busy. But I have also taken over quite early responsibility.
Roland Siebelink ⦨: Yeah.
Sandra: Because with these local associations, it's natural you join the association when you are five or six. And then while you're growing older, you
Roland Siebelink ⦨: Right.
Sandra: take more and more responsibility for the younger who come after you, until
Roland Siebelink ⦨: Mm-hmm. Right.
Sandra: at one point in time you take over the full group management and everything. You get a special education for that. Until you leave then because you go for studying or you work somewhere different.
Roland Siebelink ⦨: So it's like natural learning of mentorship and teaching and management in a way?
Sandra: Exactly. Yes, and this is always different. It's different if you teach a class of swimming than if you teach a class in gymnastic wheel, for example.
Roland Siebelink ⦨: Mm-hmm.
Sandra: This is one element. I went then for studies in Stuttgart. It was hybrid studies where you had a traineeship with one specific company. I was lucky to end up in consulting at that point in time. Then you work three months and then you study three months and it takes turns until you're done with your degree. And out of that, I was lucky to help on a project in Switzerland, in Zurich. After
Roland Siebelink ⦨: Mm-hmm. nice.
Sandra: some time, Swisscom, which was the company we were consulting at, asked us if I could not come for half a year to help implement a certain kind of methodology for process optimization locally. And so I went and everyone was like, wow, you're going
Roland Siebelink ⦨: Mm-hmm.
Sandra: into a foreign country. And to be honest, it's true, it's quite different to Germany,
Roland Siebelink ⦨: Right.
Sandra: even though you might not think from a US perspective. And out of that, I stayed at Swisscom for more than 10 years
Roland Siebelink ⦨: wow, okay.
Sandra: in totally different roles. Did a lot of optimization, did a lot in infrastructure optimization of building the landlines, really going through the holes in the ground and thinking about
Roland Siebelink ⦨: Mm-hmm.
Sandra: how to optimize the process. Did my MBA in between and ended up in strategy. And while I was working in strategy, I had first contact with smart meter connection.
Roland Siebelink ⦨: Okay.
Sandra: That was totally new at that point in time that a smart meter would need to have a SIM card.
Roland Siebelink ⦨: Right.
Sandra: That was the product we were developing in the end. And then our CEO got a bit of pressure from the Swiss government and came and said, guys, we need to do something in energy. And we're
Roland Siebelink ⦨: Mm-hmm.
Sandra: like, Yeah, well, whatever. We do the smart metering. And it was like, no,
Roland Siebelink ⦨: Ha ha ha.
Sandra: something disruptive, which brings Switzerland away from nuclear power. And this was the start of Tico Energy solution. I started there from scratch,
Roland Siebelink ⦨: let's see.
Sandra: almost like a second time, because the only thing I knew was my German plug doesn't fit into the Swiss socket.
Roland Siebelink ⦨: Right.
Sandra: But I was not aware on why that was. It was just it
Roland Siebelink ⦨: Ha ha ha.
Sandra: doesn't fit. And so this was the starting point for myself getting into the electricity industry.
Roland Siebelink ⦨: Very cool. Was there in any point in time in your career somebody that really inspired you to get the courage to start a company by yourself? Somebody that you consider an inspiration or a mentor?
Sandra: Yes, actually it was the at that point in time the CEO of Swisscom,
Roland Siebelink ⦨: Okay.
Sandra: Carsten Schloter at that time, who unfortunately died meanwhile. But he was really an inspirational person and who always
Roland Siebelink ⦨: Is it?
Sandra: said, if we see a possibility and if there is a market, if you see a customer fit or a customer need, then let's go for it. Because the future will not look as today. The future will
Roland Siebelink ⦨: Mm-hmm.
Sandra: be different, so let's help to shape that future instead of just being passive and waiting what is going to come. And this was really always impressive, also how he supported it, also getting it through the management team at Swisscom, getting it through the board, where no one was aware of electricity.
Roland Siebelink ⦨: Right.
Sandra: Everyone was just thinking in data packages and IoT connection.
Roland Siebelink ⦨: Of course, yes, yes, yes.
Sandra: That was really a person who inspired a lot.
Roland Siebelink ⦨: Mm-hmm. Okay. Yes, an unfortunate ending indeed ~ for Carsten Schloter. Sandra, where can people get more information about Beebop and what should they download or look out for in terms of an asset about the company that they could get more information about?
Sandra: Yes. On one side, we have the website, which is beebop.ai. There is also a blog section, so if you're interested in exploring a bit the electricity or power systems of the world, this is a really interesting block where you can have everything from customer and business model focus down to really geeky algorithm explanations really
Roland Siebelink ⦨: cool.
Sandra: into the far technical details. I think it's great to have a bit of a broadening focus on that one. The second one is follow us on LinkedIn. We regularly bring updates, also with all the different utilities we work and having specific case studies, which are normally the most interesting part on how does it look in
Roland Siebelink ⦨: course, yeah.
Sandra: reality.
Roland Siebelink ⦨: Okay, very good. And for those that want an introduction to Sandra and they know me already, they don't know Sandra yet, I'm happy to always provide the introduction through LinkedIn as well.
Sandra: For sure.
Roland Siebelink ⦨: Sandra, this has been an amazing interview. Thank you so much for coming on Breakthrough AI Operators. I think you're gonna be having a huge impact in this world, so I'm very happy to have had you on the show. And of course, next week we will have another founder AI operator on the show, not quite as good as Sandra, most likely, but still it should be an interesting episode as well, so please stay tuned, everyone.
