WEBVTT
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I have access to fifty thousand dollars worth of booze 24-7-365.
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We never close 100%.
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Hey, welcome to a new episode of Breaking Down Addiction, a podcast by National Addiction Specialists.
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And I'm your host, Johnny Phillip.
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And I'm joined with my really good friend, special guest, Matthew Dwyer.
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Hello.
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Thank you so much for joining us.
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Thanks for having me.
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You're uh pinch hitting in a way.
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And so thank you for the last minute uh decision to come on.
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Absolutely.
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You were doing service work last night.
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So you're coming in warm.
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I am.
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Right.
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Love it.
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Uh we've known each other for the better part of almost three decades.
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We've lived in Wisconsin together.
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Yep.
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But I want to get right into this.
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So if you were sitting across from yourself in active addiction, what would you say?
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Probably what the interior monologue of my brain always says.
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So what the hell is wrong with you?
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That was one of the most um the most infuriating things about my active addiction is that I knew better and I did it anyway.
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And one thing you learn, particularly in early recovery, is you can't think your way out of this problem.
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It doesn't care who you are, how smart you are, what kind of degrees you've got, what kind of circles you run in, doesn't matter.
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Cultural background.
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It does not matter.
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It does not matter.
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Sure, Wisconsin is a notoriously uh a notoriously booze-drenched state.
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Yes.
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But um that doesn't mean everybody in the state is an alcoholic, you know, not like me.
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I mean, so I that that's a wonderful elaboration on that.
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Wisconsin, for all of you listeners out there, um, there's maybe eight bars to every corner.
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Miller owns maybe 60% of the city.
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Absolutely.
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You're born with a Miller High Life in your hand.
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So, yes, I mean, there is an element of that being from Wisconsin.
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I mean, you and I culturally just come from a drinking town.
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Sure.
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It's um when I when I explain it to people, particularly in the buckle of the Bible belt where we are now.
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Um I always think it's cute that Nashville fancies itself a drinking town because the most insane New Year's Eve party you've been to in Nashville is just your average Tuesday night in Madison or Milwaukee.
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It's it's another dimension as far as uh as far as the drinking culture.
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It's Wisconsin's like Nashville, hold my beer.
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Yeah, 100%.
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Or my old fashioned.
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My Wisconsin old fashioned.
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Yes, there is, yeah.
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Absolutely.
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Yeah.
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Um so you've been in the service industry for almost three decades for however long that we've known each other.
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Yep.
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Um sidebar, side note is that you were my boss once at a bar restaurant.
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So we'll we'll get into that later.
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But it seems like the service industry as a whole, it can protect your drinking.
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Yes.
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And how did that happen for you and how did that unfold?
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You know, I've I've definitely considered this question quite a bit just because, you know, as as you move through the rooms, I'm I'm an AA guy, and as you move through the rooms, you always hear people talk about how, particularly in their industry, you get a lot of drinkers.
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So I'm a lawyer, nobody drinks like lawyers.
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I'm a nurse, nobody drinks like nurses, I'm a teacher, nobody drinks like teachers.
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The one thing that separates the service industry from any other industry is access.
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I have access to$50,000 worth of booze, 24-7, 365.
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We never close 100%.
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And um it is by definition a very transient industry.
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If you think about the people that come in, work for two weeks and dip, get fired, uh, move on, go on to a real job or what have you.
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Um, and it does, it really shields people with drinking problems because you enter that drinking culture and the alcoholic mind necessarily compares me to other people, you know, and that that is uh part of what getting over the hump for me in sobriety was was you know, yes, I drink a lot, but at least I don't blank, at least I don't live under a bridge and drink it out of a paper bag, you know.
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And maybe at least you can still keep your job.
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Right, a hundred percent.
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Yeah, a hundred percent.
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Because the the the drinking that I did was way out of my budget.
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I couldn't drink the wine that I fancied or the scotch that I loved, or the I couldn't afford that stuff.
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Yeah, but in the restaurant I can afford anything because it's free.
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Yeah, I remember starting off shifts with a shift beer to where we're all trying a very fancy strong beer.
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Yes.
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And then I remember there would be a contest on selling a beer in particular while we're working.
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Whoever sold the most of it, of that focused beer, then you get uh like a mini bar tab.
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Yes.
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So it does protect it.
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And why as servers, as somebody in the the in the service industry, why is drinking so prominent?
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I think that there is a built-in because of the nature of the business, I feel like that there is a um there's a built-in sort of desperation or an immediacy.
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Um everybody, well, I shouldn't say everybody, everybody I ever worked with is living paycheck to paycheck.
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So you're in a you're in a naturally precarious position.
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And if you throw this disease on top of it, it can it can get pretty gnarly pretty quick.
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And um I think that's probably why it attracts us.
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That's a that's a that's a great answer because I remember I was a musician and toured for almost 16 years working at a restaurant.
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I can always come back to my shifts, but I remember loving working in the service industry because alcohol was everywhere.
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Yes.
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But I wasn't playing music hardly anymore.
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So I was almost numbing myself out because it's I mean, maybe there's a certain point of directionlessness there.
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What do you what do you say to that?
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Or am I?
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I I I agree.
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I think um if I could describe myself an act of addiction, it would definitely be rudderless and directionless and without identity.
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And I I think that the nature of the industry is to be all things to all people.
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You know, if a if a cranky person walks in, you you get them on the level.
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If a happy person walks in, you feed that happiness.
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You know, you get to be the chameleon that you are on the inside, you get to put into a professional capacity and and and really do it on the outside.
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No, thanks for elaborating on that.
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Yep.
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I mean, you were a functional drinker for a long time.
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What was the what do you say the biggest lie that you told yourself to protect that narrative?
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I think the biggest lie that I told myself um was that everybody else was overreacting to my drinking.
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I think that um I I say that my drinking career in earnest went for about 17 years.
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Burning through friends, burning through relationships, burning through jobs, burning through cars, burning through all of that.
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If if anyone were to look at what I was doing objectively, they would say this this person's off the deep end.
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It's you're tripping.
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And again, that goes back to my early, earlier point of um I'm smarter than this.
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If I was an alcoholic, I would know it and I would stop, which is just nonsense.
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To say it outside out loud is I was a crazy person.
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I was I was an absolutely insane.
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You're living with insanity.
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Yes, like a hundred percent.
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100%.
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And I think so I think that the biggest lie that I told myself, other than the comparisons, was um that I was managing it.
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There was no measure by which I was managing anything.
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It was uh it was a disaster from start to finish.
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Your life was unmanageable, completely and totally unmanageable, as the program says.
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Um a lot of programs speak early on here.
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Uh correct me if I'm wrong, but I think with you and maybe a few other guys, you guys helped start the log cabin group here.
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I was uh I was an early attendee of the log cabin.
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I I'm reticent to say that I was uh a founder because I it was it really started while I was in treatment.
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Um and this was at the backdrop of of COVID.
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Um my sobriety date is April 20th of 2020.
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That's four and a half weeks into the COVID-19 pandemic.
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When I say I left for treatment when we were in the wiping down your groceries portion of the pandemic, that's not an exaggeration.
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So a lot of people did not respond to Zoom during the during the pandemic.
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And so, how do we get a live group of guys or gals or co-ed together?
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And the best way to do it is outdoors.
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So this uh small group of fellas uh put together a group and and booked some space at the Buchanan Log House down on uh Elmhill Pike, and it literally started with like four or five guys standing around a fire outside of that um outside of that log cabin.
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And I probably came in in like their third or fourth meeting that they had ever had, and it really resonated with me, probably because I was coming out of treatment and everything was very new to me and very exciting.
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And um I still go to that meeting.
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I still do.
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I was just there, you know, two nights ago.
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Incredible.
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No, it's awesome, and it grew into something to where I remember I went once, there was maybe 90 men there.
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Yep, and it's a men's stag group.
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It is a men's stag, and uh it's a it's a speaker meeting of sorts, and uh we actually did outgrow the original facility.
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So the Buchanan Log House on Elmhill Pike, we could not cram, you know, with all the all the Crisco in the world, we couldn't grease everybody up and cram them in.
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So we moved over to the annex of Donaldson First Church, and it we've seen nothing but growth.
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So we went again from four or five guys standing around a fire to between 80 and 120 people a week.
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We get everything.
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We get drugie buggies come and drop off their folks from the halfway houses and stuff.
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Uh, we get newcomers, and and that's what that meeting really is focused on is the newcomers.
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We want them to come in and feel that energy.
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It's it's incredible.
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It's incredible.
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Um, thank you for bringing me into that meeting.
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Yeah, 100%.
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I was you brought me in as a speaker, so told miniaturized version of my story and brought topic.
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Um, going to that meeting, I never found something that really felt like a home group here.
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You know, I I went to maybe five, six different meetings before that.
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Never really found my footing and my my group.
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Not that you need to, right, but I remember going to the log cabin group and there's this undeniable love.
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Like if you walk into that meeting and you don't know anyone, somebody will come and shake your hand.
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100%.
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So if there's anybody listening to this episode in the Nashville area, you should definitely check out the log cabin group.
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Tuesdays, 7 30.
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Tuesdays at 7 30.
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We do a meeting before the meeting.
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We meet at uh Panera Bread on Royal Parkway.
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Um longer fat bites.
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No, we started with Panera and then we started doing some other restaurants in the area, but there's um there's a cost consideration for newcomers, and we don't want cost to be a barrier to getting in that fellowship.
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So we'll meet, we usually meet about an hour and a half before the meeting.
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Um and uh, you know, get get the new guys plugged in.
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And then we also do things outside of those two things.
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So, for example, tonight, the log cabin men's group is going to a movie out at the Thoroughbred in Franklin.
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We do that once a month.
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Um, we also do incredible amounts of service.
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Like I had said before we started today.
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I was at a detox house over on Haywood Lane last night.
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Uh, we do outreach to um uh uh the um the DUI school.
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Uh we do uh at Williamson County, yeah.
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I will uh no, I think it's Davidson.
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I've not been, but um yeah, that's something that we also do as far as service and outreach, and then um again detox centers and uh and halfway houses and stuff like that.
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So you know, service being an important kind of cornerstone of my recovery, I'm all about it.
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I just love doing it.
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I love I love helping the newcomer because they helped me.
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Uh it's it's funny because uh leading up to this episode, we were talking about how you're our first guest that doesn't work in treatment, but technically you do with all the service.
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I volunteer in treatment.
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You volunteer in treatment.
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Yes, that's way better put.
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Um I do want to start getting into some consequences, not to shift gears, but um so you had blackouts, job losses, pancreatitis, yes, um, which I heard is awfully painful, and also lead from drinking.
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So what you know, what took you so long for this to stick and even after the hospitalization?
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Sure.
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Yeah, it's um it's the damnedest thing.
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Uh it's it is um despite all of those consequences, missed opportunities, lost opportunities piling up, I soldiered on.
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You know, sometimes I wish that I had the type of dedication that I had to drinking and could apply that to things that are actually productive.
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But unfortunately, that was not in the cards for me.
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Yeah.
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Um what did it take?
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Well, uh the first the first time that I really made an earnest attempt to get sober was in the summer of 2018.
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And the consequence was my wife caught me drunk at 10 o'clock in the morning and said, Uh-oh.
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That's it, man.
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We gotta do something.
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Yeah.
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And um I got sober at that point for the wrong reason.
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I got I got sober to save my marriage.
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And um that lasted uh 14 months.
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So I white knuckled it and did all of the bare minimum, everything to make it look like I was doing everything I needed to do.
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I was checking the boxes, I was getting an A plus in recovery.
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But there was no service, there was no outside anything.
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I was going to a meeting, you know, probably five days a week.
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I was going to the East Side Sunlighters at 7:30 in the morning and uh getting to know those folks a little bit.
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But uh that only lasted about a year.
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And then so I stopped going to meetings in June of 2018, uh uh 2019, and uh I relapsed in August of 2019.
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Did you have a sponsor at this time?
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I did, my same sponsor that I have now.
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Uh Chris F has been my sponsor since the summer of 2018.
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He shepherded me through that relapse and uh got me got me to treatment when I needed it the most.
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We'll we'll definitely get more into that.
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Yeah, 100%.
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But the pancreatitis that you had, was that in 2018?
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That was in 2011.
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Okay.
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So we moved to today is my 15th anniversary moving to the city of Nashville from Milwaukee, Wisconsin.
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Oh, that's good.
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And uh I in we moved here in February of 2011.
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Unfortunately, I took me with me.
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So I was even though I pulled the geographic, I didn't I didn't get away from anything.
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So by I think that was June of 2011, I was in the hospital with pancreatitis.
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And uh I was in the hospital for about a week and um was released from the hospital, and I think I didn't drink for about 10 days after that.
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It scared you for 10 days, it scared me for 10 days, and that's exactly what it was.
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Well, oh, you know, this is a real consequence, and I'll never drink again for a while.
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So um unfortunately that made my drinking career a little bit more dangerous because it had become clear that I could no longer function in public while under the influence, but all I wanted to do was be under the influence.
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So I stopped going to bars and restaurants for my drinks, and I started going to liquor stores and bodegas for my drinks.
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And uh it became much more dangerous at that point because I was literally hiding it from everybody.
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I was hiding it from my wife, I was hiding it from my friends, I was hiding it from my from my bosses, I was hiding it from everybody.
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And um the way that I drank was very, very dangerous.
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Um binge?
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Binge binge a hundred percent and binge seven nights a week.
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I mean, yeah, and what what did that look like?
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Sometimes in the morning, always in the morning, never in the morning.
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So, again, as alcoholics and addicts, we make rules for ourselves.
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And I had been uh fired from, you know, by the time I left Milwaukee, I was essentially unemployable.
00:16:42.000 --> 00:16:46.320
I had burned through all the goodwill, all the good friends, all the everything.
00:16:46.480 --> 00:16:49.519
I had just set the world on fire in Milwaukee.
00:16:49.600 --> 00:16:53.840
I could not be trusted, I could not be lived with, I couldn't do anything.
00:16:54.000 --> 00:16:57.519
And I moved here and it was still that same, like, you know.
00:16:58.159 --> 00:17:05.759
And uh so my landlord got me a job at a restaurant in East Nashville, and you'll never guess what happened.
00:17:05.920 --> 00:17:08.079
I got fired for being drunk on the job.
00:17:08.240 --> 00:17:16.559
No, and so that was the rule that I set for myself is that I would never jeopardize a job again because of my drinking.
00:17:16.720 --> 00:17:23.759
Now it it would never occur to the mind of an after of an active alcoholic that that might be the problem.
00:17:23.920 --> 00:17:24.960
No, no, no, no, no.
00:17:25.119 --> 00:17:25.759
Forget it.
00:17:25.920 --> 00:17:26.319
Right, right.
00:17:26.480 --> 00:17:28.960
So here this was my ritual.
00:17:29.359 --> 00:17:33.119
I would get off of work usually between 10 and 10:30 at night.
00:17:33.279 --> 00:17:35.440
Liquor stores in Tennessee close at 11.
00:17:35.599 --> 00:17:38.079
So buzz on over to the liquor store.
00:17:38.400 --> 00:17:42.400
Pardon me, and uh buy enough to get me through that night.
00:17:42.480 --> 00:17:45.440
Because I can't have like a handle of whiskey just sitting at the house.
00:17:45.599 --> 00:17:47.279
I don't drink anymore, right?
00:17:47.440 --> 00:17:47.759
Right, right.
00:17:48.000 --> 00:17:55.759
And so I would buy usually a pint of vodka, and then I would buy two big pistons of some kind of a beer.
00:17:56.000 --> 00:18:00.160
So Pabst, uh, you know, my hometown favorite, it's my culture.
00:18:00.400 --> 00:18:08.480
And um so what I would do is I would drink the two beers on the way home.
00:18:09.119 --> 00:18:12.319
To warm you up, like a let's get let's get primed.
00:18:12.640 --> 00:18:14.079
You're not too buzzed to dry.
00:18:14.480 --> 00:18:15.119
Right, right.
00:18:15.200 --> 00:18:17.519
And you can chug them down in the car, be good to go.
00:18:17.680 --> 00:18:22.400
You know, stop at the gas station, toss them in the trash, and then get home, crack into that pint.
00:18:22.640 --> 00:18:27.839
And w when I say that I would drink half that pint all in one swallow, I'm not kidding.
00:18:28.000 --> 00:18:37.839
So I would have, you know, some kind of a soda or lemonade or something like that, pour half of that pint into the cup, fill it up this much, put this much liquid on top of it.
00:18:38.079 --> 00:18:40.640
And I can I can still consume liquid like that.
00:18:40.720 --> 00:18:44.160
I could take this and just go, and that's exactly what I would do.
00:18:44.319 --> 00:18:50.960
So you're talking, I think that a pint is like 10 measured drinks.
00:18:51.119 --> 00:18:51.279
Yeah.
00:18:51.519 --> 00:18:56.079
And then in addition to that, I had the two tall boys on the way home.
00:18:56.319 --> 00:19:01.359
So I'm consuming 15 drinks within about 90 minutes.
00:19:02.319 --> 00:19:03.039
That's a steep.
00:19:03.359 --> 00:19:04.079
That's a steep.
00:19:04.240 --> 00:19:04.400
Yeah.
00:19:04.559 --> 00:19:06.960
And I did that for seven, eight years.
00:19:07.680 --> 00:19:13.440
And um, I was just discussing this at the and and everything that would come along with that.
00:19:13.920 --> 00:19:16.000
So of course you're gonna pass out.
00:19:16.160 --> 00:19:17.759
Of course you're gonna piss yourself.
00:19:17.920 --> 00:19:22.160
Of course you're going to black out and say and do things that you don't mean.
00:19:22.240 --> 00:19:26.960
I mean, you're drinking an insane amount of alcohol all at once.
00:19:27.200 --> 00:19:27.359
Yeah.
00:19:27.519 --> 00:19:27.759
Yeah.
00:19:28.319 --> 00:19:36.640
And and more than, you know, obviously I'm chasing oblivion at this point, but it's more I don't want to get caught.
00:19:37.279 --> 00:19:38.079
Full stop.
00:19:38.240 --> 00:19:38.559
Yeah.
00:19:38.799 --> 00:19:46.720
Um and the the hangovers that would be accompanying that the next morning were just devastation.
00:19:47.279 --> 00:19:50.079
How did you get through the hangovers and still make work?
00:19:50.640 --> 00:19:55.279
The well, the good news is that I would never have to be at work until three in the afternoon.
00:19:55.440 --> 00:20:14.160
And so I would wake up probably 8 30, 9 o'clock in the morning, certain that I was gonna die, and uh just spend that uh spend that three, four hours just recovering, just recovering uh liquids, foods, you know, cold showers, you know, whatever.
00:20:14.240 --> 00:20:21.279
But you know, a lot of times what I would do is I would wake up at 8 30, eat something, drink something, non-alcoholic, and then just go back to bed.
00:20:21.440 --> 00:20:26.720
You know, especially when my wife had a day job, you know, she would leave for work 9 30, 10 o'clock in the morning.
00:20:26.880 --> 00:20:28.000
I was right back to bed.
00:20:28.240 --> 00:20:35.359
Wake back up at 2 o'clock, get in the shower, try and wash as much of the vodka off of me as possible, and then stagger into work.
00:20:35.599 --> 00:21:00.079
Um we all I remember making um I I don't know how to phrase this, but I remember kind of like bending my life to be hung over or maybe continue drinking at work, to where my friend Dave, that used to be a server way back in the day, he told me that when he was a server and hung over, um, normally he would have his tray in his left hand.
00:21:00.240 --> 00:21:02.799
When he was shaky, he would put it in his right hand.
00:21:03.039 --> 00:21:04.720
And he's like, that's how I got through.
00:21:04.799 --> 00:21:13.200
Where it's so it's like we do these things to allow us to repeat these bad behaviors and like ruining our life.
00:21:13.440 --> 00:21:16.799
The the pancreatitis, does did it ever happen again?
00:21:17.119 --> 00:21:17.359
No.
00:21:17.599 --> 00:21:17.920
Okay.
00:21:18.079 --> 00:21:19.519
Luckily, which is bizarre.
00:21:19.759 --> 00:21:22.880
Yeah, because I heard that it it once it happens, it can reoccur.
00:21:23.359 --> 00:21:24.559
It can become chronic.
00:21:24.720 --> 00:21:27.920
And uh the fact that that never happened is is a miracle.
00:21:28.160 --> 00:21:33.279
But I was suffering medically from my alcohol intake.
00:21:33.359 --> 00:21:35.680
And don't forget, I'm lying to everybody.
00:21:35.839 --> 00:21:41.119
I'm lying to everybody, my wife, my family, my coworkers, and my doctor.
00:21:41.359 --> 00:21:50.319
So I would go to the doctor, you know, once a year or once every six months, and they would do a blood draw, and they'd be like, dude, your LDL is off the charts.
00:21:50.400 --> 00:21:52.480
Your triglycerides are off the charts.
00:21:52.559 --> 00:21:55.359
You're pre diabetic, you know, what are you doing?
00:21:55.440 --> 00:21:57.440
And I'm like, oh cheeseburgers are good.
00:21:58.880 --> 00:21:59.440
Yeah, 100%.
00:22:00.160 --> 00:22:05.839
And um I was on, I had high blood pressure, so I was on high blood pressure meds and this and that and the other thing.
00:22:05.920 --> 00:22:11.759
And it turns out you take the alcohol out of the equation and everything else, everything just goes back to normal.
00:22:11.920 --> 00:22:14.160
So I am no longer on blood pressure meds.
00:22:14.240 --> 00:22:18.799
I'm no longer, well, I do take a uh statin for cholesterol, but that's more of a function of my age.
00:22:19.119 --> 00:22:19.759
Same disease.
00:22:20.000 --> 00:22:20.160
Yeah.
00:22:20.240 --> 00:22:20.400
Yeah.
00:22:20.880 --> 00:22:26.160
So um, but I did have to have that day of reckoning with my doctor too.
00:22:26.240 --> 00:22:30.799
Like, hey, I've been pulling your leg for almost 10 years, and uh here we are.
00:22:31.200 --> 00:22:40.400
You've made some even healthier choices getting sober because I know that you've done Pilates for a really long time, and I think you were doing it like almost daily.
00:22:40.720 --> 00:22:43.519
I was doing Pilates six days a week up until December.
00:22:43.599 --> 00:22:49.920
I had surgery on my foot uh in December, and I'm just about out of the woods as far as getting cleared to go back.
00:22:50.000 --> 00:22:54.640
Um, so I'm expecting to return, make a triumphant return to Pilates in the next couple weeks.
00:22:55.039 --> 00:22:56.559
Good, good for you.
00:22:57.440 --> 00:23:00.799
Um I'm thankful that the pancreatitis never came back.
00:23:01.119 --> 00:23:17.680
Yeah, I dodged a lot of bullets, and and I can't emphasize that enough, especially when you spend time in the rooms with people who and you know, we try to avoid war stories because everybody's got them, but invariably it it comes up the consequences that other people faced.
00:23:17.759 --> 00:23:22.640
And I think I think about how many times I snatched victory from the jaws of defeat.
00:23:22.799 --> 00:23:25.839
I am a rabbit's foot when it comes to consequences.
00:23:26.000 --> 00:23:33.599
Um, I did I did manage two DUIs, um, but other than that, I mean, not a whole lot.
00:23:33.759 --> 00:23:34.400
Not a whole lot.
00:23:34.720 --> 00:23:42.799
I do remember a story when you were drinking heavily, and this is a kind of a figment of my imagination almost.
00:23:43.039 --> 00:23:55.200
This is maybe 2017, 2018, something like that, where you drank way too much and the next morning, or maybe that night, they uh you went to the hospital or something and they had to give you a banana bag, what do you called it?
00:23:55.920 --> 00:23:57.759
That was in 2015.
00:23:58.559 --> 00:24:05.599
Um, I don't remember the circumstances leading up to well, I mean It's probably one of our lunches you told me about that.
00:24:05.759 --> 00:24:23.279
Yeah, I I drank uh until I had completely lost consciousness and I was, you know, passed out on the living room floor, and my wife um was basically trying to get me to wake up and and saying, Hey, if you don't wake up, man, I'm I'm gonna have to call an ambulance.
00:24:23.359 --> 00:24:24.799
I'm gonna have to call an ambulance.
00:24:24.960 --> 00:24:26.400
And so she did.
00:24:26.559 --> 00:24:35.039
And uh yeah, I got picked up and taken to Skyline Medical Center, put on a banana bag and uh and brought back to life in a way, I guess.
00:24:35.359 --> 00:24:37.279
I'm guessing it's a banana bag because it's yellow.
00:24:37.519 --> 00:24:39.440
Yes, yeah, it's bright, bright yellow.
00:24:39.599 --> 00:24:50.000
And uh, I I don't know is it potassium or something that they put in it, but they they they colloquially refer to it as a banana bag, and it's just all of the things that you need to live.
00:24:52.240 --> 00:25:05.920
Um but yeah, and that was we were supposed to, I think that was in March of 2015, and we were supposed to, I think the following Monday, we were supposed to leave for New Orleans and we were gonna go get married, and that all got put on hold.
00:25:06.319 --> 00:25:09.359
We still made the trip to New Orleans, but we did not get married.
00:25:09.599 --> 00:25:11.680
Um we didn't get married until two years later.
00:25:12.480 --> 00:25:21.759
Tumultuous times, it seems like autumn really chaos you guys have made a way of working things out and improving your lives together.
00:25:22.160 --> 00:25:28.240
Yeah, it's uh and it and it did nearly cost me the relationship several times.
00:25:28.480 --> 00:25:37.759
Several times and um lie through my teeth, you know, um because I was really good at hiding it.
00:25:38.240 --> 00:25:55.359
Like, you know, show me, show me the empty bottles, show me the this, show me the that, you know, and and she could never so she couldn't she couldn't pin me down and say crafty dude like like pen and teller level of magician uh work.
00:25:55.599 --> 00:25:59.680
Wow, you know, sneak out, grab a bottle, hide a bottle here, hide a bottle there.
00:25:59.920 --> 00:26:05.119
You know, and part of part of why I drank so quickly was because I needed to get the evidence out of the house.
00:26:05.440 --> 00:26:06.480
Right, right, right, right, yeah.
00:26:06.720 --> 00:26:08.880
Um you had a system down.
00:26:09.200 --> 00:26:12.720
Oh, it was it was an airtight system, airtight.
00:26:13.200 --> 00:26:17.759
Uh amongst all this, and I don't know when, but cocaine entered the picture.
00:26:18.079 --> 00:26:21.759
How did that change the way you drank and also your denial at that point?
00:26:22.160 --> 00:26:27.359
I was very fortunate to uh have been able to just put cocaine down.
00:26:27.519 --> 00:26:37.519
Uh there was about a three-year period when I was doing cocaine almost every day, when I was the general manager of a restaurant in Milwaukee, and um the place was just a cocaine paradise.
00:26:37.599 --> 00:26:38.640
It was just everywhere.
00:26:39.039 --> 00:26:40.720
So that's how it got introduced.
00:26:41.200 --> 00:26:47.839
Yeah, I don't I don't I don't I can't think of a single other person on earth who tries cocaine for the first time at age 30, but that was me.
00:26:47.920 --> 00:26:51.119
Yeah, I had never touched it, never been around it, never this, never that.
00:26:51.599 --> 00:26:52.400
And with work folk?
00:26:52.720 --> 00:26:52.960
Yes.
00:26:53.119 --> 00:26:53.519
I'm guessing.
00:26:53.920 --> 00:26:54.079
Yes.
00:26:54.240 --> 00:27:01.440
So it started with there was a guy who would eventually become my Coke dealer, um, and I noticed he was just hanging out between the bathrooms.
00:27:01.599 --> 00:27:05.039
We were one of the first uh bars in the city to do a service industry night.
00:27:05.119 --> 00:27:08.480
And so we would just be overrun with maniacs every Sunday night.
00:27:08.640 --> 00:27:13.359
And there's this one guy just hanging out between the bathrooms, and everybody seems to know him, right?
00:27:13.759 --> 00:27:17.279
And so I walk up to him like, I'm the general manager here.
00:27:17.440 --> 00:27:19.200
Do you think I don't know what you're doing?
00:27:19.359 --> 00:27:24.160
And he literally asks me how much he's got to kick to me in order to keep doing what he's doing.
00:27:24.640 --> 00:27:28.079
I don't know anything about coke, so I'm like, Yeah, give me a quarter.
00:27:28.319 --> 00:27:34.160
So every Sunday I'm getting a free quarter ounce of cocaine, like two eight balls basically.
00:27:34.400 --> 00:27:36.799
And I became a damn popular guy after that.
00:27:37.440 --> 00:27:39.920
And I'm still married to my first wife at that time.
00:27:40.079 --> 00:27:48.480
And so I'm I'm blowing everything up at home, but I'm just like fancying myself a mini little scarface, you know, when I go to work.
00:27:48.720 --> 00:27:52.720
And um of course that job crashed and burned.
00:27:52.799 --> 00:27:53.839
Uh, I got fired.
00:27:54.079 --> 00:27:56.400
And um did it allow you to drink more?
00:27:56.480 --> 00:28:01.759
Because I know that some people will introduce a drug like that and upper, so it allows them to drink more and longer.
00:28:02.079 --> 00:28:02.319
Yes.
00:28:02.480 --> 00:28:10.799
And and um I would it's hard to gauge at that point because you know that I'm we're talking 2004, 2005.
00:28:10.880 --> 00:28:14.400
So that's relatively early in when the switch happened.
00:28:14.559 --> 00:28:21.920
You know, I used to just be a heavy drinker when the when the switch flipped to being an alcoholic when I was 27 or 28.
00:28:22.000 --> 00:28:24.319
So I was still only a couple years in.
00:28:24.559 --> 00:28:34.559
And um, yeah, I I think I thought I could drink more and function better, but things got real wobbly on Coke.
00:28:34.720 --> 00:28:42.799
And uh again, I think I probably did Coke regularly for for about two and a half years or so.
00:28:42.960 --> 00:28:44.240
And I'll never forget it.
00:28:44.319 --> 00:28:52.799
I just woke up one day and it was just like, I don't like these people, I don't like this scene, I don't like the come down, I don't like anything, I don't like how expensive it is.
00:28:53.119 --> 00:28:56.319
So I just walked away and didn't really do it again.
00:28:56.559 --> 00:29:03.680
Um, however, interesting cocaine is in the story of my relapse in 2019.
00:29:03.920 --> 00:29:06.720
Uh that's that's what kind of brought me back to the booze.
00:29:06.960 --> 00:29:10.240
We were in Mexico celebrating our wedding anniversary.
00:29:10.400 --> 00:29:11.839
Oh my god, this is terrible.
00:29:12.160 --> 00:29:14.160
Celebrating our wedding anniversary.
00:29:14.880 --> 00:29:22.720
And uh we were in uh we were in Cabo and uh we're at a resort in Cabo, and I'm um it's like the morning, we're swimming.
00:29:22.799 --> 00:29:26.480
I get up, I walk, you can't really walk the beach that in that part of Cabo.
00:29:26.559 --> 00:29:38.960
Uh it's all rocky and stuff, but uh, there's a bunch of people hanging out down there, and I'm just sitting on the seawall looking over the ocean, and all of a sudden, just some guy on the beach is like, hey amigo, hey amigo, you want?
00:29:39.359 --> 00:29:43.039
And he just shows me this baggie of white powder.
00:29:43.279 --> 00:29:47.279
So, what's the smart thing to do during the height of this opioid crisis, right?
00:29:47.440 --> 00:29:52.319
Yeah, of course you buy a bag of white powder from a stranger in a foreign country.
00:29:52.480 --> 00:29:53.759
What could possibly go wrong?
00:29:54.480 --> 00:30:04.319
So I'm ripping lines, and by the time the vacation is over, I've cracked into the mini bar and I'm in I'm in full relapse.
00:30:04.559 --> 00:30:08.400
So now I've returned to the United States with a little secret in my pocket.
00:30:08.799 --> 00:30:19.200
Just to prove that no matter what it is, if it's cocaine, weed, whatever your drug of choice is, if you dabble in something else, it will bridge you to because it's not your drug of choice.
00:30:19.519 --> 00:30:19.599
Right.
00:30:20.319 --> 00:30:20.400
Right.
00:30:20.559 --> 00:30:32.720
Because you're just gonna be tickling, you're just gonna be tickling that uh, you know, I I always forget how the science of it works, but like heroin pokes at this one, cocaine pokes at this one, meth pokes at this one, weed pokes at this one.
00:30:32.960 --> 00:30:35.440
Um alcohol fires all of them.
00:30:35.599 --> 00:30:38.880
So if you're tickling one of them, of course I want all of them to fire.
00:30:39.039 --> 00:30:39.200
Right.
00:30:39.440 --> 00:30:41.759
You know, because that's that's my DOC.
00:30:41.839 --> 00:30:45.119
That's that's that's my comfort zone, is in that oblivion.
00:30:45.599 --> 00:31:02.720
So to demonstrate the progressive nature of this illness, my story is uh it's a uh is a prime example of that because I relapsed in August of 2019 and I ended up in re in rehab in uh April of 2020.
00:31:02.880 --> 00:31:04.160
So that's eight months.
00:31:04.319 --> 00:31:14.799
It took me eight months to get back to where it had taken me 45 years to get to the first time, which is to me demonstrable proof that the next time is gonna be the last time.
00:31:15.279 --> 00:31:17.279
I won't survive if I go out again.
00:31:17.839 --> 00:31:25.599
Um your your first trip, 2018 to rehab was I've only been I've only been to to rehab one time.
00:31:25.839 --> 00:31:26.880
That was in 2020.
00:31:27.119 --> 00:31:34.960
The other time when when when Autumn came home and found me hammered at 10 o'clock in the morning, that was a okay, I'm gonna go to AA.
00:31:35.359 --> 00:31:38.319
Because all the half measures in the world, right?
00:31:38.559 --> 00:31:41.839
You know, I'll I'll I'll do anything to not lose this relationship.
00:31:42.000 --> 00:31:46.000
You know, it was never boy, I sure need the separation.
00:31:46.079 --> 00:31:49.519
I need to be away from this and and release do some work.
00:31:49.680 --> 00:31:51.920
It's no, I'm gonna go, I'm gonna go to some meetings.
00:31:52.000 --> 00:32:03.680
You know, let's let's talk about half measures here because you've been vocal about having um about doing not doing half measures in recovery in treatment.
00:32:04.000 --> 00:32:08.559
How did that show up for you in doing half measures that first time?
00:32:08.720 --> 00:32:20.880
What how you know what did that lead you to from doing half measures, uh probably treatment, but how did you figure out to not do half measures and do the full met the full scope of treatment?
00:32:21.200 --> 00:32:24.400
I think that really speaks to the true nature of surrender.
00:32:24.799 --> 00:32:32.319
I think that um the half measures that I embarked upon over the years, which is and it says it in the literature too.
00:32:32.480 --> 00:32:35.200
Okay, I'm not gonna drink scotch anymore, I'm gonna switch to brandy.
00:32:35.279 --> 00:32:42.880
I'm okay, brandy's not working, I'm only gonna drink beer, I'm only gonna drink on the weekends, I'm only gonna drink with friends, I'm only gonna drink without friends, I'm only gonna do this, I'm only gonna do that.
00:32:43.039 --> 00:32:47.759
Those are the half measures that sort of punctuated my drinking career.
00:32:48.720 --> 00:33:00.960
Um the nature of the real surrender when I staggered across the threshold at Discovery Place, and my sponsor had told me, like do everything they tell you to do.
00:33:01.119 --> 00:33:03.440
Don't do your own version of what they tell you to do.
00:33:03.599 --> 00:33:05.599
Don't say I'm gonna do everything except that.
00:33:05.759 --> 00:33:06.559
You're gonna do all of it.
00:33:06.880 --> 00:33:08.720
If they tell you to do 90, 90, do it.
00:33:08.960 --> 00:33:09.200
Right.
00:33:09.359 --> 00:33:10.000
Yes, 100%.
00:33:10.559 --> 00:33:11.599
Get a sponsor, do it.
00:33:11.680 --> 00:33:11.839
Right.
00:33:12.079 --> 00:33:13.759
Get it you go through the steps, do it.
00:33:13.920 --> 00:33:14.079
Right.
00:33:14.480 --> 00:33:16.160
Work with a sponsee, do it.
00:33:16.480 --> 00:33:16.880
Yes.
00:33:17.599 --> 00:33:31.759
I think that um being willing to be teachable, being willing to accept that running on my own willpower is a road to an early grave.
00:33:32.000 --> 00:33:44.240
Um it took just that little opening of willingness for me to be like, okay, the way I'm doing this is it's it's not working.
00:33:44.400 --> 00:33:47.200
And so we're we're truly at a crossroads.
00:33:47.440 --> 00:33:50.160
I'm either going to die or I'm going to live.
00:33:50.319 --> 00:33:52.079
That's those are my only two choices.
00:33:52.559 --> 00:34:00.400
And uh it became clear to me that with my track record and my history of these half measures, that the way I was doing it, it was gonna lead to death.
00:34:00.799 --> 00:34:07.119
And and um so I finally stopped listening with my mouth and started listening with my ears.
00:34:07.519 --> 00:34:22.480
And uh I met some really amazing people inside at Discovery Place, people that I'm still in contact with to this day, who were able to love me until I was able to just function and maybe love myself a little bit.
00:34:23.199 --> 00:34:32.480
Was part of this, and I know this is kind of my story, but was part of this was you didn't think you deserved a great life.
00:34:32.800 --> 00:34:37.840
And on top of that, you didn't think that you would live a long life as well.
00:34:38.239 --> 00:34:41.599
Because sometimes I think about that, and that's where I was mentally.
00:34:41.920 --> 00:34:42.239
Sure.
00:34:42.480 --> 00:35:02.639
Yeah, I I've I definitely in in getting to know myself, and and a lot of this was through writing a fourth step and going through the fifth step and and making uh quite a few amends over the years, is um from a very young age, I always felt an emptiness on the inside.
00:35:02.800 --> 00:35:06.079
And that necessarily to me led to an identity crisis.
00:35:06.159 --> 00:35:07.440
I never knew who I was.
00:35:07.679 --> 00:35:07.840
Right.
00:35:08.159 --> 00:35:15.679
All I knew was that I had this insatiable, unquenchable need to change the way I felt.
00:35:16.320 --> 00:35:17.599
And it started young.
00:35:17.760 --> 00:35:18.960
And it started young.
00:35:19.519 --> 00:35:24.559
Um I would I I was a voracious reader as a young person.
00:35:24.719 --> 00:35:44.880
I read above my um above my grade level starting early, and I would stay up until two, three, four in the morning just reading fantasy novels, horror novels, um, think completely age inappropriate novels because I could immerse in that and I was gone and I was a different person and I was living in that world.
00:35:45.119 --> 00:35:50.159
Part of it is where I grew up, and I'm sure you can identify because you grew up in the suburbs too.
00:35:50.480 --> 00:35:51.840
I can there's a name for it.
00:35:51.920 --> 00:35:52.800
It's called ennui.
00:35:53.119 --> 00:35:56.000
It is just like a uh an aimlessness.
00:35:56.320 --> 00:36:01.840
I I didn't know that what I was feeling was a lack of culture until I moved into the city, you know.
00:36:02.000 --> 00:36:08.400
But but to me, like if white flight was a place, it's where I grew up, and it's where you grew up.
00:36:08.559 --> 00:36:16.320
And it's just this this beige conformist, like kind of goofiness, and everything just felt fake to me.
00:36:16.559 --> 00:36:18.400
Um I couldn't wait to get out.
00:36:18.559 --> 00:36:25.199
Oh, dude, like there was a puff of smoke in in the shape of my body when I I turned 18 and I was like, bye.
00:36:25.280 --> 00:36:26.400
You're like, I gotta go.
00:36:26.559 --> 00:36:29.119
Like, I don't know what I'm looking for, but this ain't it.
00:36:29.440 --> 00:36:29.840
You know.
00:36:30.000 --> 00:36:39.519
Um, and then into adulthood, um in early adulthood, uh, I was more of a drugs guy than a booze guy early on.
00:36:39.679 --> 00:36:43.119
Uh psychedelics, you know, stuff like that.
00:36:43.199 --> 00:36:44.480
Uh, never anything hard.
00:36:44.559 --> 00:36:48.239
You know, the hardest thing I had ever done up until the age of 30 was acid, you know.
00:36:48.400 --> 00:36:55.039
Um, and it wasn't until I started bartending at age like 22 that I really started sort of developed my taste for alcohol.
00:36:55.199 --> 00:36:59.840
Um Do you think that that filled that hole in you better than everything else did?
00:37:00.079 --> 00:37:00.320
It did.
00:37:00.400 --> 00:37:03.760
It's like what Bill says when it when it says in Bill's story, I've arrived, right?
00:37:03.920 --> 00:37:04.960
Yeah, I've arrived.
00:37:05.119 --> 00:37:06.159
I'm the bartender.
00:37:06.320 --> 00:37:08.559
And and the place that I worked, it was in Tosa.
00:37:08.960 --> 00:37:11.599
It's an old, old school Italian restaurant.
00:37:11.679 --> 00:37:15.039
And it was like at the time that the Sopranos was real big and all that stuff.
00:37:15.199 --> 00:37:18.320
So everybody's a tough guy, and everybody's real this and real that.
00:37:18.400 --> 00:37:31.360
And I work for these guys that look like they're from central casting, you know, and uh so I met the most bizarre people, but I really felt like I belonged because you felt like you found yourself.
00:37:31.519 --> 00:37:38.719
I'm in a barroom that seats 200 people, and 75 of them know me by first name, and I've got what they want, right?
00:37:38.960 --> 00:37:43.440
So of course I'm the most popular guy in the room, you know, and there's you're all of a sudden the man.
00:37:43.519 --> 00:37:43.679
Yeah.
00:37:43.840 --> 00:37:44.480
And you're popular.
00:37:44.800 --> 00:37:50.239
And and um my feeling of detachment that I would carry with me.
00:37:50.400 --> 00:37:59.280
You put a couple cocktails on top of that, and all of a sudden, that anxiety about just ex existing in the world that just sort of gets muted a little bit.
00:37:59.360 --> 00:38:03.760
And all of a sudden I can talk to girls, and all of a sudden I can talk like a tough guy.
00:38:03.920 --> 00:38:09.199
And, you know, it it was it was an identity, but it wasn't my identity.
00:38:09.360 --> 00:38:11.760
It was just an identity that I was kind of putting on myself.
00:38:12.079 --> 00:38:14.239
Like we talked about in the program, you had a different mask on it.
00:38:14.400 --> 00:38:15.280
Yes, a hundred percent.
00:38:15.599 --> 00:38:17.440
And we have many different masks.
00:38:17.679 --> 00:38:20.880
Yes, yes, when we're using and an active addiction.
00:38:21.199 --> 00:38:22.800
None of which are authentic.
00:38:23.119 --> 00:38:23.599
Right, right.
00:38:23.840 --> 00:38:27.280
Which uh, you know, again, living a lie, you know.
00:38:28.559 --> 00:38:36.639
Um I mean, shifting gears here, I do want to talk about um you had a spiritual deficiency at what point?
00:38:36.800 --> 00:38:38.719
And when do you think you discovered that?
00:38:39.039 --> 00:38:44.960
And what did you do to not or or have a lack thereof of spirituality?
00:38:45.360 --> 00:38:51.679
I think that um I had conflated spirituality and religiosity, which are not the same thing.
00:38:51.920 --> 00:38:52.960
Oh gosh, me too.
00:38:53.199 --> 00:38:55.360
Can I can I give you a little timeout here?
00:38:55.599 --> 00:38:59.119
Because when I got a call, music here's helped get me sober.
00:38:59.280 --> 00:39:02.320
I went to Center City, um, Minnesota, the hazeled in there.
00:39:02.480 --> 00:39:02.719
Sure.
00:39:02.960 --> 00:39:07.280
And I was on the phone with admissions, and one of the questions was, Do you consider yourself spiritual?
00:39:07.519 --> 00:39:09.599
I thought she was asking if I'm religious.
00:39:10.159 --> 00:39:12.320
So, yeah, and I said, No.
00:39:14.719 --> 00:39:15.920
So I can level with that.
00:39:16.159 --> 00:39:17.039
Yeah, a hundred percent.
00:39:17.119 --> 00:39:23.119
I still consider myself to be uh what I refer to as uh as a militant agnostic.
00:39:23.280 --> 00:39:40.559
Like I just really don't buy into the structure of particularly American religion, which um yeah, I'm not here to bag on people who are religious because I know that I know a lot of people uh who live the faith.
00:39:40.880 --> 00:39:48.239
But when I was a kid, we went to church every Sunday and I went to Sunday school uh all the way up until I was confirmed.
00:39:48.320 --> 00:39:50.639
And then my parents were basically like, This is your choice.
00:39:50.719 --> 00:39:56.800
You're a confirmed member of this church, you can go or not go, which I'm really grateful to them for giving us that choice.
00:39:57.119 --> 00:39:59.760
You know, it's not like you're gonna do this and blah, blah, blah.
00:40:00.159 --> 00:40:01.199
It wasn't like that.
00:40:01.360 --> 00:40:22.800
But what I saw again feeding into that emptiness and lack of identity that I felt growing up, as I would, you know, the same people I went to church with are the same people that I went to school with, are the same people that I was existing in the society of that city with, and I would see people say and act a certain way on Sundays and then go out into the world and act the complete opposite.
00:40:22.960 --> 00:40:27.360
And to me, it was all just a big performative grift.
00:40:27.599 --> 00:40:37.679
And I still feel that way in a lot of respects, because I I think that in in the Christian tradition, I don't know what this is in the United States right now, but it ain't Christianity.
00:40:37.760 --> 00:40:39.440
It certainly is not Christ-like.
00:40:39.840 --> 00:40:46.880
Um but as an alcoholic, I dismissed that completely out of hand.
00:40:47.039 --> 00:40:50.480
You're weak-minded, you've got the problem, it's not me.
00:40:51.599 --> 00:40:59.840
Here's the thing, though, is that rejecting Christianity is not a rejection of spirituality.
00:41:00.000 --> 00:41:05.119
And the way that it was explained to me is particularly in early recovery at Discovery Place.
00:41:05.280 --> 00:41:08.639
I was talking to one of the one of the guides who works there.
00:41:08.800 --> 00:41:10.239
He says, How's your spiritual life?
00:41:10.320 --> 00:41:11.840
I said, non-existent.
00:41:12.639 --> 00:41:18.320
Okay, well, you're drinking with a religious fervor, and that just stopped me dead in my tracks.
00:41:18.639 --> 00:41:20.000
What the hell are you talking about?
00:41:20.239 --> 00:41:34.639
He says, Well, if it's the first thing you think about when you wake up because you're so hungover you can barely function, and it's the last thing you think about when you either go to sleep or more accurately lose consciousness, then you're worshiping at the altar of something.
00:41:34.880 --> 00:41:46.400
If if if you're worshiping at the altar of oblivion, and we can just kind of shift you on over to something a little bit more spiritual, I think that we can we can get you on the right path.
00:41:46.559 --> 00:41:50.079
And so I've I've been a big believer, and I wish I could dig up the original quote.
00:41:50.159 --> 00:41:52.719
I actually heard it from the actor Rain Wilson.
00:41:52.880 --> 00:42:09.119
Uh I don't and he came from some bizarre religious background, but uh the the the saying or the idiom or the axiom is um uh uh religion or um religion or Christianity or whatever.
00:42:09.280 --> 00:42:13.119
It's the blanket that we throw over the great mysteries to see what shape they are.
00:42:13.360 --> 00:42:19.519
Now, if if I reject Christianity on its face, that doesn't mean that those great mysteries don't still exist.
00:42:19.679 --> 00:42:21.119
And I was really helped.
00:42:21.199 --> 00:42:28.079
Uh we actually share a therapist, and before I left for treatment, he gave me a book to take with me to treatment.
00:42:28.320 --> 00:42:42.880
And uh it was bizarre because you were only allowed to bring conference-approved literature into Discovery Place, but for whatever reason they helped me to they they let me hold on to that book, and I read that book when I got really sick of reading the big book in the 12 and 12.
00:42:43.039 --> 00:43:10.639
I would crack open this book, and it was a book from the Buddhist tradition, and it talked about um how to meditate and the function of meditation, and I think that that is um that is what I've adopted as my spirituality is that um the sort of concept of karmic realignment that if you put you put out into the universe, generally speaking, you will receive the good back.
00:43:11.119 --> 00:43:16.480
And um that was what kind of crawled me out of that hole.
00:43:16.719 --> 00:43:18.000
Um that's wonderful.
00:43:18.239 --> 00:43:29.199
Yeah, I'm I and I also experienced a miracle, like the whole world shut down so I could go to treatment.
00:43:29.360 --> 00:43:33.679
Don't forget, April 20th, 2020, all the restaurants were closed.
00:43:33.840 --> 00:43:40.239
You know, I was on the phone with my boss telling her that I was leaving for treatment, and she was like, dude, there's no better time to do this.
00:43:40.320 --> 00:43:41.519
You're not missing any work.
00:43:41.760 --> 00:43:47.679
Matter of fact, I got paid$875 a week on enhanced unemployment when I went to treatment.
00:43:48.719 --> 00:43:48.960
Yeah.
00:43:49.119 --> 00:43:49.440
Yeah.
00:43:49.760 --> 00:43:59.599
Um so the closest thing that I come to say to saying like, thank God or thank Jesus or whatever, my my kind of catch all for that is no.
00:44:00.159 --> 00:44:00.880
Coincidences.
00:44:01.599 --> 00:44:07.599
Like if it wasn't a miracle, at least it needs to be acknowledged that this was no kind of coincidence.
00:44:07.760 --> 00:44:12.239
That this was just sort of the universe lining up so I could kind of like see the light.
00:44:12.480 --> 00:44:13.039
Yes.
00:44:13.199 --> 00:44:13.440
Yes.
00:44:13.840 --> 00:44:16.239
How has meditation helped you through this?
00:44:16.960 --> 00:44:22.719
So from that book that I had read, um here's the deal.
00:44:23.119 --> 00:44:25.519
And we had a shorthand for it inside of Discovery Place.
00:44:25.599 --> 00:44:26.960
We called it the Crazy Picture Show.
00:44:27.119 --> 00:44:28.320
The shorthand for it was this.
00:44:29.039 --> 00:44:29.920
Are you doing this right now?
00:44:30.079 --> 00:44:31.280
Are you doing this right now?
00:44:32.000 --> 00:44:37.679
Because inside my head is this constantly going just train of thought, and it is not rational.
00:44:37.920 --> 00:44:44.320
You know, it is it is anxiety-ridden, it is angry, it is judgmental, and it's not realistic.
00:44:44.400 --> 00:44:47.280
This is not the voice of reason that is running through my head.
00:44:47.440 --> 00:44:59.599
And in this book, they tell the story about in the Indian subcontinent, they, you know, India, Bhutan, Pakistan, all that stuff, they uh they don't treat dogs the same way that they do here.
00:44:59.679 --> 00:45:02.880
They don't necessarily keep them as pets, they just kind of run feral on the streets.
00:45:03.039 --> 00:45:08.880
So as you're walking through the cities in the Indian subcontinent, all you hear in the background is just dogs barking.
00:45:09.039 --> 00:45:11.119
Dogs barking, dogs barking, dogs barking.
00:45:11.440 --> 00:45:18.400
Several times throughout the day, for whatever reason, all the dogs stop barking at once.
00:45:18.880 --> 00:45:20.480
And then they start right back up.
00:45:20.719 --> 00:45:24.639
The purpose of meditation is not to become a great meditator.
00:45:24.880 --> 00:45:30.000
The purpose of meditation is to get those dogs to stop barking, if only for a couple of seconds.
00:45:30.079 --> 00:45:32.079
And that's where your clarity comes from.
00:45:32.239 --> 00:45:41.199
That's where your intention setting comes from, and that's where like the baseline comes from for you to be a functioning adult in the society.
00:45:41.440 --> 00:45:52.079
I wish I could say I was an amazing meditator or I did it with any sort of frequency or or or things like that, but it's it's uh it's a process and it's a journey, you know.
00:45:52.159 --> 00:45:53.840
Uh thank you for sharing all that.
00:45:54.159 --> 00:45:54.400
Of course.
00:45:54.559 --> 00:45:58.639
I I mean it's so wonderful that you found that and that you had the book on Buddhism with you.
00:45:59.280 --> 00:46:03.119
Uh I'm so curious about many tip different types of religion.
00:46:03.360 --> 00:46:11.440
I grew up Catholic and went to Catholic school until fourth grade and was forced into CCD in Sunday school until middle school.
00:46:11.840 --> 00:46:14.639
That's a whole nother conversation for a different time.
00:46:14.880 --> 00:46:23.519
But um I I struggled with getting sober and doing the 12-step program because of the G word.
00:46:24.400 --> 00:46:30.559
And I remember when I did the meeting at the log cabin group, that was my topic that I struggled with the G-word.
00:46:31.119 --> 00:46:41.440
And what what helped me, because this is so funny, there's so many strange parallels with brothers in recovery and or just recovery people in general.
00:46:41.679 --> 00:46:51.679
Um so when I went to Hazelden, there was this guy, Luke, in the room next to me, played sitar, musician, had a record label.
00:46:51.920 --> 00:46:53.039
He was a Buddhist.
00:46:53.599 --> 00:46:59.599
And I remember when I kept reading, kept reading the literature, and God kept being brought up.
00:46:59.760 --> 00:47:06.239
And I was I was said to the group, I'm like, hey, you guys, I don't believe in God.
00:47:06.880 --> 00:47:08.320
Am I gonna be okay?
00:47:09.119 --> 00:47:13.199
And they all gave me a hug and they're like, Yeah, of course, of course you're gonna be okay.
00:47:13.360 --> 00:47:22.079
And then Luke pulled me aside and said, Um, in the Buddhist literature, they don't read God as God, they read as good.
00:47:22.639 --> 00:47:26.559
So every time I read the literature from then on, I would read it as good.
00:47:26.639 --> 00:47:27.199
Yeah.
00:47:27.440 --> 00:47:31.840
And that kind of made me see past it and just take my blinders off.
00:47:32.079 --> 00:47:32.480
Sure.
00:47:32.719 --> 00:47:35.840
Um, so Buddhism in a way also helped me as well.
00:47:36.159 --> 00:47:36.400
Yeah.
00:47:36.639 --> 00:47:48.480
And and and I I think that the way that the program, the way that the 12-step program is structured, leaves room for the non-Christian, which I think is a very important.
00:47:48.880 --> 00:48:05.920
But again, all of my half measures, and I I say this all the time when I'm talking about the actual moment when I made the decision to go to treatment, where I'm like, I wish I could see my Google history at that time because it was literally like how to get sober without AA, how to do everything but AA.
00:48:06.719 --> 00:48:11.199
Because I was perceiving it as this thinly veiled Christian organization.
00:48:11.280 --> 00:48:12.639
And let's not get it twisted.
00:48:12.800 --> 00:48:14.000
That's where AA started.
00:48:14.159 --> 00:48:19.599
AA is an offshoot of the Oxford group, which is an evangelical Christian organization.
00:48:19.920 --> 00:48:31.920
But they realized early on that they were necessarily cutting out a portion of the population that was suffering because of their non-Christianity or their reticence toward Christianity.
00:48:32.239 --> 00:48:41.440
We've already gone over how I felt about the Christians that I had grown up with, that they were hypocrites and and jerks and all this stuff.
00:48:41.599 --> 00:48:48.719
But, you know, the when they say like God can be anything, it can be that doorknob over there.
00:48:48.880 --> 00:48:49.360
Okay, cool.
00:48:49.519 --> 00:48:50.159
I've heard that too.
00:48:50.400 --> 00:48:56.079
When we reach the part where I'm asking the doorknob to remove my character defects, then what do we do?
00:48:56.239 --> 00:48:58.239
You know, and my desire to drink.
00:48:58.480 --> 00:48:58.719
Right.
00:48:59.039 --> 00:49:05.679
And so God to me is the catch all for all of the things that are beyond my capacity to understand.
00:49:06.000 --> 00:49:08.800
Um, and that's how I kind of carry forward with it.
00:49:08.960 --> 00:49:12.400
And I've been a magnet for sponsees who struggle religiously.
00:49:12.480 --> 00:49:18.320
And I'm like, hey, you can achieve long-term sobriety without cracking a Bible one time, right?
00:49:18.480 --> 00:49:20.480
You know, um, which is great.
00:49:20.719 --> 00:49:32.559
You know, I think that um keeping our our our tent big and our umbrella broad is is one of the most important things about keeping this uh keeping this organization moving.
00:49:34.480 --> 00:49:36.079
Thank you for mentioning all that.
00:49:36.239 --> 00:49:36.480
Yeah.
00:49:36.719 --> 00:49:44.559
Because there are people out there that are still not getting sober because of the G word and the literature thinking it it's Catholic adjacent, you know.
00:49:45.440 --> 00:49:53.119
Um switching gears, you and your career have wildly changed.
00:49:53.199 --> 00:49:55.199
You've taken a 180, you're now a real litter.
00:49:55.360 --> 00:49:57.119
Yes, you're no longer in the service industry.
00:49:57.360 --> 00:49:57.920
That's correct.
00:49:58.159 --> 00:50:00.320
And you have you've teamed up with your wife.
00:50:00.800 --> 00:50:07.519
Like, tell me some moments lately that are so wildly different than when you used to work in the service industry.
00:50:07.760 --> 00:50:13.280
And also you guys working as a team, like how does this affect your marriage?
00:50:13.440 --> 00:50:14.800
Does it make it more stressful?
00:50:14.960 --> 00:50:16.559
Does it make it more harmonious?
00:50:16.719 --> 00:50:17.039
Yeah.
00:50:17.199 --> 00:50:21.760
Um, you know, do you guys show up differently for each other because you're also working together now?
00:50:21.840 --> 00:50:34.239
And I think that um getting out of the service industry was like the last little vestigial organ of my drinking career.
00:50:34.400 --> 00:50:40.639
You know, part of my drinking career was getting home late at night and leaving for work in the afternoon.
00:50:40.800 --> 00:50:48.159
And my wife even said it a couple of weeks ago, where she was like, I feel like we're finally grown-ups.
00:50:48.719 --> 00:50:50.239
Um like you're adulting.
00:50:50.480 --> 00:50:51.760
Like we're we're adulting, finally.
00:50:51.920 --> 00:51:01.119
We've been adulting this whole time, but it's been like adulting with a little asterisk next to it because I'm still, you know, I'm I'm running with a crowd that's half my age.
00:51:01.280 --> 00:51:03.039
You know, it's that that's what it is.
00:51:03.199 --> 00:51:07.760
Everybody I work with is, you know, 30 or younger, with very few exceptions.
00:51:07.920 --> 00:51:12.000
You know, most people find their way out of the industry, and I just stuck with it.
00:51:12.239 --> 00:51:16.800
You know, I worked with a lot of people that are now in their 60s that still work in the in the service industry.
00:51:16.880 --> 00:51:19.280
That's this is not a knock on that.
00:51:19.519 --> 00:51:20.159
No, not at all.
00:51:20.400 --> 00:51:20.960
Not at all.
00:51:21.199 --> 00:51:38.159
But you know, my wife had reached a crossroads in her career where she needed to hire somebody on, and it was just, you know, I was frustrated enough with my position in the service industry to be like, maybe I should try something different.
00:51:38.400 --> 00:51:41.440
She's like, Well, why don't you get your license and we'll get you the hell out of there?
00:51:41.519 --> 00:51:42.480
And that's what we did.
00:51:42.639 --> 00:51:45.440
And it's been, you know, it's obviously been an adjustment.
00:51:45.519 --> 00:51:47.679
You know, we have two different working styles.
00:51:48.159 --> 00:51:52.320
Um, we have different styles for getting out and finding business.
00:51:52.480 --> 00:52:04.639
You know, she's more the like pound the phone, scratching the dirt, and I'm more like, well, I've built relationships with people in all these different circles and all these different facets, and and I'm just gonna kind of I'm gonna bring it in that way.
00:52:04.960 --> 00:52:06.639
I think it's great that you guys are different thinkers.
00:52:06.800 --> 00:52:07.440
Oh, yeah, 100%.
00:52:07.760 --> 00:52:10.000
Um, that's that's uh there's a lot of net positives there.
00:52:10.239 --> 00:52:23.599
Yeah, something that we talked about just the other day where um we had gone, uh we had done some kind of a presentation or something, and she was Monday morning quarterbacking that presentation, and I was like, here's here's how we compliment each other.
00:52:23.840 --> 00:52:27.920
I overthink beforehand and you overthink after the fact.
00:52:28.079 --> 00:52:36.880
So we really balance each other out because you're not gonna hear any of my bullshit overthinking it on the front end, and I'm not gonna hear any of your bullshit overthinking it on the back end.
00:52:37.119 --> 00:52:38.639
You know, so it is.
00:52:38.800 --> 00:52:43.280
We have really become more of that like one unit.
00:52:43.440 --> 00:52:55.360
You know, there have been there have been times where we've been able to accomplish things uh in in the in this world where we refer to it as Autumn with four arms.
00:52:55.519 --> 00:53:02.719
Like this is where we're just able to to to just accomplish a little bit more just because we've got an extra set of hands here to do it, you know, which is incredible.
00:53:03.039 --> 00:53:05.599
I know that she's an amazing salesperson.
00:53:06.400 --> 00:53:13.440
Uh her previous job, she was winning awards all over the place, and she was the number one salesman.
00:53:13.599 --> 00:53:17.119
And um, you guys won trips all over the place.
00:53:18.800 --> 00:53:19.199
Yeah.
00:53:19.440 --> 00:53:24.559
So I know that she's really good at what she does, and I've also worked with her a bit too.
00:53:24.960 --> 00:53:31.039
Um you guys have a couple different properties now, and and you have so many things in the works.
00:53:31.199 --> 00:53:31.679
Yep.
00:53:31.920 --> 00:53:34.880
Um, I'm just congratulations on making the change.
00:53:35.199 --> 00:53:35.760
Thanks, man.
00:53:36.079 --> 00:53:38.559
You did go back to school at one point, too.
00:53:38.960 --> 00:53:42.239
Would you have done that while you're still fucked up and drinking?
00:53:42.559 --> 00:53:45.519
Uh the entire time that I was in school, I was an active addiction.
00:53:45.760 --> 00:53:45.920
Okay.
00:53:46.079 --> 00:53:46.320
Yep.
00:53:46.400 --> 00:53:48.800
So I went to how did that fare?
00:53:49.280 --> 00:53:52.400
Uh the results were were mixed.
00:53:52.559 --> 00:53:56.960
Um, I I didn't get my degree, and I I I still consider that to be a regret.
00:53:57.119 --> 00:54:08.880
But in, you know, I was going for a degree in public policy in political science, and like, you know, considering the current state of affairs, I don't know that that's an area that I would want to be working in actively at this time.
00:54:09.280 --> 00:54:11.119
It's nice to be informed, though, right.
00:54:11.360 --> 00:54:12.880
And have your own solid opinions.
00:54:12.960 --> 00:54:13.280
Yeah.
00:54:13.679 --> 00:54:23.920
And it Tom Morello from Rage Against the Machine had that one quote, uh, kind of digging into somebody, uh, ripping on him for having so many political ideals and ideas.
00:54:24.079 --> 00:54:30.960
And he's like, You don't have to be in a rock band and have uh political science doctorate through Harvard.
00:54:31.119 --> 00:54:31.360
Yeah.
00:54:31.440 --> 00:54:32.320
Uh, but I do.
00:54:32.480 --> 00:54:32.800
Yeah.
00:54:34.239 --> 00:54:36.320
Education's always power.
00:54:36.719 --> 00:54:37.280
A hundred percent.
00:54:37.599 --> 00:54:40.800
Um do you ever think that you'll go back and finish that?
00:54:41.280 --> 00:54:53.280
I've definitely thought about it because all that's left for me to do is basically an internship, um, which would be interesting throwing a 50-year-old in with a bunch of 22-year-olds doing their own.
00:54:53.360 --> 00:54:56.639
It's also not conducive to your lifestyle now and money.
00:54:56.960 --> 00:54:57.199
Right.
00:54:57.440 --> 00:54:59.599
Yeah, I couldn't imagine doing an internship right now.
00:55:00.000 --> 00:55:01.760
Yeah, it would be like a six-month internship.
00:55:01.840 --> 00:55:10.079
And and as a matter of fact, I was trying to put together an internship for the spring of 2020 to finish my degree, and then everything just kind of went to hell.
00:55:10.159 --> 00:55:12.880
The tornado happened, like all this stuff happened, COVID.
00:55:13.039 --> 00:55:16.880
I went to treatment, and uh, everything just has kind of backburnered.
00:55:16.960 --> 00:55:22.000
And once once I got out of treatment, it was like, you know what, that that's in the maybe pile down the road.
00:55:22.159 --> 00:55:33.519
And I may someday just finish up in order to, you know, just accomplish it and say that I did it, but I feel no urgency to get that done just because I don't think it's a field I would ever go into these days.
00:55:33.599 --> 00:55:33.760
Okay.
00:55:33.920 --> 00:55:36.960
You can't work in government in a state that hates government, right?
00:55:37.280 --> 00:55:37.840
It's just not.
00:55:38.480 --> 00:55:39.519
I was curious about that.
00:55:39.679 --> 00:55:41.280
So thank you for answering.
00:55:41.519 --> 00:56:02.480
And um, for for the addicts out there, this is one of my last questions, but for the for the addicts, alcoholics out there that haven't lost everything, what would you say to them that they're just continuing down this path, floating along, struggling, using, stealing, whatever they're doing, at whatever level, but they haven't lost everything.
00:56:02.719 --> 00:56:06.639
What would you say to them to help them or make them see the light?
00:56:07.199 --> 00:56:09.440
The bottom comes when you stop digging.
00:56:12.320 --> 00:56:18.480
Whatever you think rock bottom is, it can get so much worse.
00:56:19.679 --> 00:56:26.400
And you don't have to have somebody die to stop it.
00:56:28.400 --> 00:56:36.159
We live, particularly us, we live in Nashville, Tennessee, which is one of the most vibrant recovery communities in the entire world.
00:56:37.280 --> 00:56:40.559
And the good news is that we take everybody.
00:56:40.880 --> 00:56:41.760
We take everybody.
00:56:42.079 --> 00:56:50.079
It doesn't matter, and it says it in the literature, it doesn't matter how far down the scale you've come or you've gone, we're always here.
00:56:50.559 --> 00:56:51.679
We'll always accept you.
00:56:51.920 --> 00:56:54.800
We will you can fall into our arms.
00:56:55.599 --> 00:56:59.760
All you gotta do is stop fighting, stop digging, whatever it is.
00:57:00.000 --> 00:57:02.639
Um that bottom, it's endless.
00:57:02.880 --> 00:57:04.000
It's it you can keep digging.
00:57:04.239 --> 00:57:05.039
Oh, a hundred percent.
00:57:06.159 --> 00:57:12.480
What if somebody's thinking about getting sober but they're continuing because they don't have a viber community and recovery?
00:57:16.559 --> 00:57:22.559
I think it's possible to choose not to have that network.
00:57:23.920 --> 00:57:24.880
We can build that network.
00:57:25.039 --> 00:57:26.639
We are everywhere, you know.
00:57:26.719 --> 00:57:29.599
Um this again is a disease that does not discriminate.
00:57:29.840 --> 00:57:36.960
It doesn't matter if you're rich or poor or of any sort of protected status, there is a recovery community for you.
00:57:37.360 --> 00:57:40.880
Um we're not here to judge you, we're here to help you.
00:57:41.199 --> 00:57:44.480
And the the I stand on the shoulder of giants.
00:57:44.639 --> 00:57:49.119
There are people whose names I don't know that have paved this road for me.
00:57:49.280 --> 00:57:52.960
Um and I continue to do that for others.
00:57:53.360 --> 00:57:57.199
Um it doesn't matter.
00:57:57.360 --> 00:58:00.400
What whatever your your deepest, darkest secret is.
00:58:00.559 --> 00:58:04.559
I uh part of what I do is I receive fifth steps several times per year.
00:58:04.719 --> 00:58:05.840
I've heard some dark shit.
00:58:06.159 --> 00:58:07.360
I've done some dark shit.
00:58:07.519 --> 00:58:07.679
Yeah.
00:58:07.920 --> 00:58:17.199
And um, you know, at the end of the day, all of these things that we're holding inside that we're medicating or numbing with our drugs of choice are going to kill us.
00:58:17.440 --> 00:58:24.480
Right through, you know, anxiety, depression, alcohol use disorder, fear, you you name it.
00:58:24.639 --> 00:58:33.840
It it this is how this is how we die with without a serious readjustment and realignment of how we continue forward.
00:58:34.320 --> 00:58:36.960
And my suggestion would also be you could start your own.
00:58:37.119 --> 00:58:44.000
I mean, look at you showing up with three or four guys around a campfire, and it turned into a meeting of 90 to 120 every Tuesday.
00:58:44.480 --> 00:58:48.719
Um and there are also meetings that people probably don't know about in their area.
00:58:49.119 --> 00:58:49.360
Sure.
00:58:49.519 --> 00:58:57.039
Uh there's a uh there's a uh clubhouse that's right by where I live now that holds a midnight meeting once a week, and it's four people in the service industry.
00:58:57.440 --> 00:58:58.000
So crazy.
00:58:58.320 --> 00:58:58.960
Yeah, crazy, right?
00:58:59.519 --> 00:59:09.119
And then um I go to another meeting on Thursday nights that's um it's a it's a much smaller group um that focuses entirely on emotional sobriety.
00:59:09.599 --> 00:59:11.199
Steps six, seven, ten, and eleven.
00:59:11.360 --> 00:59:12.480
That's all we focus on.
00:59:13.039 --> 00:59:21.679
And it is it it's you know, it's four people who maybe have a couple of years under their belts and maybe are struggling to find something fresh and new or whatever.
00:59:22.000 --> 00:59:26.559
And you know, maybe your self-will without the substances is still running riot.
00:59:26.639 --> 00:59:30.639
Maybe you're obsessed with money, maybe you're obsessed with sex, maybe you're obsessed with gambling.
00:59:30.880 --> 00:59:31.280
Yeah.
00:59:31.440 --> 00:59:38.000
And um, yeah, so we focus strictly on six, seven, ten, and eleven that meets right around the corner here in Brentwood every Thursday night.
00:59:38.400 --> 00:59:39.039
So cool.
00:59:39.199 --> 00:59:39.519
Yeah.
00:59:39.840 --> 00:59:44.800
And um I I just kind of thank you enough for doing this.
00:59:45.039 --> 00:59:45.199
Yeah.
00:59:45.360 --> 00:59:49.599
Who would have thought when we were staggering around together in Cafe Holland or 17 years ago?
00:59:49.840 --> 00:59:53.199
That we'd be doing up on a podcast in Nashville, Tennessee.
00:59:53.440 --> 00:59:53.840
I know.
00:59:54.000 --> 00:59:57.920
It it this my life constantly blows my mind.
00:59:58.079 --> 01:00:00.480
Like I don't know how I got here, but I do.
01:00:00.719 --> 01:00:01.039
Yeah.
01:00:01.280 --> 01:00:09.840
You know, I I know the steps that I took and I know the things that I changed aligned and um just getting honest and also making mistakes.
01:00:10.079 --> 01:00:10.880
Oh, a hundred percent.
01:00:11.039 --> 01:00:16.320
I I think mistakes are the most beautiful thing because then you have something to correct.
01:00:16.719 --> 01:00:18.880
Uh but you have to get honest about your mistakes.
01:00:19.039 --> 01:00:19.519
Yeah.
01:00:19.840 --> 01:00:23.440
Um, and I I want to thank you for a few different things here.
01:00:23.519 --> 01:00:25.599
Uh, of course, for doing today.
01:00:25.679 --> 01:00:28.239
Uh I want to thank you for adopting Baxter, my dog.
01:00:28.480 --> 01:00:29.840
Oh, I forgot all about that.
01:00:30.880 --> 01:00:33.920
Um so my wife and I have a cat.
01:00:34.000 --> 01:00:38.000
It's her cat that I gained through marriage and relationship.
01:00:38.159 --> 01:00:39.440
And they don't get along.
01:00:39.679 --> 01:00:41.760
They would fight like cats and dogs.
01:00:42.079 --> 01:00:44.239
And so you took Baxter without question.
01:00:44.559 --> 01:00:47.280
And I can't thank you, Nottum, 100% more.
01:00:47.679 --> 01:00:54.880
And I remember the day that I moved here almost 11 years ago, you showed up in the morning to help me carry boxes.
01:00:55.119 --> 01:00:56.559
I've never forgotten that.
01:00:56.719 --> 01:01:00.159
And I mean you brought me into the log cabin group.
01:01:00.320 --> 01:01:02.960
Uh, there's just so many things.
01:01:03.039 --> 01:01:08.719
And you had a lot of suggestions for me to get involved in the recovery community when I first moved here, the Dharma group.
01:01:09.440 --> 01:01:12.239
Um, I learned about 202 from you.
01:01:12.639 --> 01:01:18.320
Uh there's so many things that I'm thankful for that you don't know that I'm thankful for, I'm sure.
01:01:18.639 --> 01:01:19.280
I appreciate that.
01:01:19.519 --> 01:01:20.000
You're welcome.
01:01:20.159 --> 01:01:20.639
Yeah, absolutely.
01:01:21.119 --> 01:01:25.519
I just love you so much, and everything you've shared is just rock solid.
01:01:25.840 --> 01:01:31.920
Um you could also get at Matt if you're looking to get into some property or sell your house.
01:01:32.000 --> 01:01:33.199
Uh, what's your at?
01:01:33.920 --> 01:01:38.000
Uh we are at uh season in stone real estate specialists.
01:01:38.079 --> 01:01:44.000
Uh we are under the Berkshire Hathaway uh brokerage, and uh we spell we all over Middle Tennessee.
01:01:44.400 --> 01:01:44.800
Great.
01:01:44.960 --> 01:01:50.000
Absolutely now get at get at Matthew Dwyer and he spells it weirdly with no double T.
01:01:50.239 --> 01:01:51.039
That's right, just one T.
01:01:51.119 --> 01:01:51.280
Thanks.
01:01:51.760 --> 01:01:52.880
Suss him out.
01:01:53.679 --> 01:02:02.960
Uh and then if you like this podcast, Breaking Down Addiction, and want to see more episodes, please like and subscribe and do all the things on socials.
01:02:03.119 --> 01:02:05.039
Leave us a five star review if you can.
01:02:05.119 --> 01:02:06.559
Um, everything helps.
01:02:06.719 --> 01:02:09.360
And look out for your brother and sister out there.
01:02:09.599 --> 01:02:12.079
And thank you so much for your friendship and everything, Matt.
01:02:12.239 --> 01:02:12.639
I appreciate it.
01:02:12.800 --> 01:02:13.039
Love you.
01:02:13.199 --> 01:02:14.159
Love you too.
00:00:00.160 --> 00:00:05.280
I have access to fifty thousand dollars worth of booze 24-7-365.
00:00:05.360 --> 00:00:07.040
We never close 100%.
00:00:13.839 --> 00:00:20.160
Hey, welcome to a new episode of Breaking Down Addiction, a podcast by National Addiction Specialists.
00:00:20.399 --> 00:00:22.879
And I'm your host, Johnny Phillip.
00:00:23.120 --> 00:00:26.879
And I'm joined with my really good friend, special guest, Matthew Dwyer.
00:00:27.120 --> 00:00:27.519
Hello.
00:00:27.760 --> 00:00:28.719
Thank you so much for joining us.
00:00:29.280 --> 00:00:29.920
Thanks for having me.
00:00:30.160 --> 00:00:32.159
You're uh pinch hitting in a way.
00:00:32.399 --> 00:00:36.159
And so thank you for the last minute uh decision to come on.
00:00:36.479 --> 00:00:36.880
Absolutely.
00:00:37.119 --> 00:00:39.359
You were doing service work last night.
00:00:39.679 --> 00:00:40.799
So you're coming in warm.
00:00:41.039 --> 00:00:41.679
I am.
00:00:42.000 --> 00:00:42.399
Right.
00:00:42.640 --> 00:00:43.280
Love it.
00:00:43.520 --> 00:00:47.119
Uh we've known each other for the better part of almost three decades.
00:00:47.439 --> 00:00:49.039
We've lived in Wisconsin together.
00:00:49.119 --> 00:00:49.359
Yep.
00:00:49.520 --> 00:00:51.359
But I want to get right into this.
00:00:51.759 --> 00:00:57.840
So if you were sitting across from yourself in active addiction, what would you say?
00:00:58.560 --> 00:01:02.799
Probably what the interior monologue of my brain always says.
00:01:02.880 --> 00:01:04.719
So what the hell is wrong with you?
00:01:07.120 --> 00:01:14.239
That was one of the most um the most infuriating things about my active addiction is that I knew better and I did it anyway.
00:01:14.400 --> 00:01:19.519
And one thing you learn, particularly in early recovery, is you can't think your way out of this problem.
00:01:19.680 --> 00:01:25.840
It doesn't care who you are, how smart you are, what kind of degrees you've got, what kind of circles you run in, doesn't matter.
00:01:26.319 --> 00:01:27.040
Cultural background.
00:01:27.359 --> 00:01:28.159
It does not matter.
00:01:28.319 --> 00:01:28.959
It does not matter.
00:01:29.200 --> 00:01:34.879
Sure, Wisconsin is a notoriously uh a notoriously booze-drenched state.
00:01:34.959 --> 00:01:35.200
Yes.
00:01:35.439 --> 00:01:39.680
But um that doesn't mean everybody in the state is an alcoholic, you know, not like me.
00:01:40.079 --> 00:01:45.359
I mean, so I that that's a wonderful elaboration on that.
00:01:45.680 --> 00:01:51.200
Wisconsin, for all of you listeners out there, um, there's maybe eight bars to every corner.
00:01:51.519 --> 00:01:54.239
Miller owns maybe 60% of the city.
00:01:54.480 --> 00:01:54.799
Absolutely.
00:01:55.040 --> 00:01:57.439
You're born with a Miller High Life in your hand.
00:01:57.840 --> 00:02:01.120
So, yes, I mean, there is an element of that being from Wisconsin.
00:02:01.200 --> 00:02:03.760
I mean, you and I culturally just come from a drinking town.
00:02:04.159 --> 00:02:04.480
Sure.
00:02:04.640 --> 00:02:11.280
It's um when I when I explain it to people, particularly in the buckle of the Bible belt where we are now.
00:02:11.520 --> 00:02:23.520
Um I always think it's cute that Nashville fancies itself a drinking town because the most insane New Year's Eve party you've been to in Nashville is just your average Tuesday night in Madison or Milwaukee.
00:02:23.680 --> 00:02:27.919
It's it's another dimension as far as uh as far as the drinking culture.
00:02:28.000 --> 00:02:30.400
It's Wisconsin's like Nashville, hold my beer.
00:02:30.560 --> 00:02:31.039
Yeah, 100%.
00:02:31.520 --> 00:02:33.039
Or my old fashioned.
00:02:33.840 --> 00:02:35.039
My Wisconsin old fashioned.
00:02:36.479 --> 00:02:37.360
Yes, there is, yeah.
00:02:37.599 --> 00:02:37.919
Absolutely.
00:02:38.080 --> 00:02:38.319
Yeah.
00:02:38.639 --> 00:02:45.919
Um so you've been in the service industry for almost three decades for however long that we've known each other.
00:02:46.000 --> 00:02:46.319
Yep.
00:02:46.479 --> 00:02:51.599
Um sidebar, side note is that you were my boss once at a bar restaurant.
00:02:52.639 --> 00:02:54.319
So we'll we'll get into that later.
00:02:54.879 --> 00:03:00.159
But it seems like the service industry as a whole, it can protect your drinking.
00:03:00.400 --> 00:03:00.639
Yes.
00:03:00.960 --> 00:03:03.280
And how did that happen for you and how did that unfold?
00:03:03.840 --> 00:03:18.479
You know, I've I've definitely considered this question quite a bit just because, you know, as as you move through the rooms, I'm I'm an AA guy, and as you move through the rooms, you always hear people talk about how, particularly in their industry, you get a lot of drinkers.
00:03:18.639 --> 00:03:20.960
So I'm a lawyer, nobody drinks like lawyers.
00:03:21.120 --> 00:03:24.879
I'm a nurse, nobody drinks like nurses, I'm a teacher, nobody drinks like teachers.
00:03:25.039 --> 00:03:30.560
The one thing that separates the service industry from any other industry is access.
00:03:31.039 --> 00:03:36.240
I have access to$50,000 worth of booze, 24-7, 365.
00:03:36.319 --> 00:03:38.000
We never close 100%.
00:03:39.199 --> 00:03:44.159
And um it is by definition a very transient industry.
00:03:44.240 --> 00:03:51.520
If you think about the people that come in, work for two weeks and dip, get fired, uh, move on, go on to a real job or what have you.
00:03:51.680 --> 00:04:18.480
Um, and it does, it really shields people with drinking problems because you enter that drinking culture and the alcoholic mind necessarily compares me to other people, you know, and that that is uh part of what getting over the hump for me in sobriety was was you know, yes, I drink a lot, but at least I don't blank, at least I don't live under a bridge and drink it out of a paper bag, you know.
00:04:18.720 --> 00:04:20.480
And maybe at least you can still keep your job.
00:04:20.720 --> 00:04:21.680
Right, a hundred percent.
00:04:21.759 --> 00:04:22.480
Yeah, a hundred percent.
00:04:22.560 --> 00:04:26.160
Because the the the drinking that I did was way out of my budget.
00:04:26.399 --> 00:04:31.600
I couldn't drink the wine that I fancied or the scotch that I loved, or the I couldn't afford that stuff.
00:04:31.680 --> 00:04:35.120
Yeah, but in the restaurant I can afford anything because it's free.
00:04:35.439 --> 00:04:42.560
Yeah, I remember starting off shifts with a shift beer to where we're all trying a very fancy strong beer.
00:04:42.720 --> 00:04:42.879
Yes.
00:04:43.040 --> 00:04:48.480
And then I remember there would be a contest on selling a beer in particular while we're working.
00:04:48.639 --> 00:04:54.000
Whoever sold the most of it, of that focused beer, then you get uh like a mini bar tab.
00:04:54.160 --> 00:04:54.639
Yes.
00:04:54.879 --> 00:04:56.560
So it does protect it.
00:04:56.720 --> 00:05:04.959
And why as servers, as somebody in the the in the service industry, why is drinking so prominent?
00:05:06.160 --> 00:05:18.000
I think that there is a built-in because of the nature of the business, I feel like that there is a um there's a built-in sort of desperation or an immediacy.
00:05:18.319 --> 00:05:23.920
Um everybody, well, I shouldn't say everybody, everybody I ever worked with is living paycheck to paycheck.
00:05:24.000 --> 00:05:26.639
So you're in a you're in a naturally precarious position.
00:05:26.800 --> 00:05:32.480
And if you throw this disease on top of it, it can it can get pretty gnarly pretty quick.
00:05:32.720 --> 00:05:37.839
And um I think that's probably why it attracts us.
00:05:38.560 --> 00:05:48.560
That's a that's a that's a great answer because I remember I was a musician and toured for almost 16 years working at a restaurant.
00:05:48.639 --> 00:05:55.920
I can always come back to my shifts, but I remember loving working in the service industry because alcohol was everywhere.
00:05:56.160 --> 00:05:56.560
Yes.
00:05:56.879 --> 00:05:59.759
But I wasn't playing music hardly anymore.
00:06:00.000 --> 00:06:07.759
So I was almost numbing myself out because it's I mean, maybe there's a certain point of directionlessness there.
00:06:08.079 --> 00:06:09.839
What do you what do you say to that?
00:06:10.240 --> 00:06:10.800
Or am I?
00:06:11.360 --> 00:06:12.000
I I I agree.
00:06:12.800 --> 00:06:22.560
I think um if I could describe myself an act of addiction, it would definitely be rudderless and directionless and without identity.
00:06:22.800 --> 00:06:28.480
And I I think that the nature of the industry is to be all things to all people.
00:06:28.720 --> 00:06:32.879
You know, if a if a cranky person walks in, you you get them on the level.
00:06:32.959 --> 00:06:35.519
If a happy person walks in, you feed that happiness.
00:06:35.600 --> 00:06:43.920
You know, you get to be the chameleon that you are on the inside, you get to put into a professional capacity and and and really do it on the outside.
00:06:44.399 --> 00:06:46.160
No, thanks for elaborating on that.
00:06:46.399 --> 00:06:46.639
Yep.
00:06:46.800 --> 00:06:51.759
I mean, you were a functional drinker for a long time.
00:06:52.160 --> 00:06:57.199
What was the what do you say the biggest lie that you told yourself to protect that narrative?
00:06:57.759 --> 00:07:06.959
I think the biggest lie that I told myself um was that everybody else was overreacting to my drinking.
00:07:07.759 --> 00:07:14.879
I think that um I I say that my drinking career in earnest went for about 17 years.
00:07:15.439 --> 00:07:20.959
Burning through friends, burning through relationships, burning through jobs, burning through cars, burning through all of that.
00:07:21.040 --> 00:07:26.560
If if anyone were to look at what I was doing objectively, they would say this this person's off the deep end.
00:07:26.800 --> 00:07:28.000
It's you're tripping.
00:07:28.160 --> 00:07:34.240
And again, that goes back to my early, earlier point of um I'm smarter than this.
00:07:34.800 --> 00:07:39.360
If I was an alcoholic, I would know it and I would stop, which is just nonsense.
00:07:39.519 --> 00:07:43.920
To say it outside out loud is I was a crazy person.
00:07:44.000 --> 00:07:45.680
I was I was an absolutely insane.
00:07:46.319 --> 00:07:47.279
You're living with insanity.
00:07:47.600 --> 00:07:48.399
Yes, like a hundred percent.
00:07:49.040 --> 00:07:49.279
100%.
00:07:49.600 --> 00:07:57.279
And I think so I think that the biggest lie that I told myself, other than the comparisons, was um that I was managing it.
00:07:57.680 --> 00:08:00.720
There was no measure by which I was managing anything.
00:08:00.879 --> 00:08:03.600
It was uh it was a disaster from start to finish.
00:08:03.920 --> 00:08:08.480
Your life was unmanageable, completely and totally unmanageable, as the program says.
00:08:09.519 --> 00:08:13.519
Um a lot of programs speak early on here.
00:08:13.680 --> 00:08:20.560
Uh correct me if I'm wrong, but I think with you and maybe a few other guys, you guys helped start the log cabin group here.
00:08:20.959 --> 00:08:24.800
I was uh I was an early attendee of the log cabin.
00:08:24.879 --> 00:08:31.920
I I'm reticent to say that I was uh a founder because I it was it really started while I was in treatment.
00:08:32.240 --> 00:08:35.679
Um and this was at the backdrop of of COVID.
00:08:35.759 --> 00:08:38.799
Um my sobriety date is April 20th of 2020.
00:08:38.960 --> 00:08:42.639
That's four and a half weeks into the COVID-19 pandemic.
00:08:42.799 --> 00:08:49.679
When I say I left for treatment when we were in the wiping down your groceries portion of the pandemic, that's not an exaggeration.
00:08:50.639 --> 00:08:58.080
So a lot of people did not respond to Zoom during the during the pandemic.
00:08:58.240 --> 00:09:03.519
And so, how do we get a live group of guys or gals or co-ed together?
00:09:03.600 --> 00:09:06.000
And the best way to do it is outdoors.
00:09:06.320 --> 00:09:22.000
So this uh small group of fellas uh put together a group and and booked some space at the Buchanan Log House down on uh Elmhill Pike, and it literally started with like four or five guys standing around a fire outside of that um outside of that log cabin.
00:09:22.080 --> 00:09:34.159
And I probably came in in like their third or fourth meeting that they had ever had, and it really resonated with me, probably because I was coming out of treatment and everything was very new to me and very exciting.
00:09:34.320 --> 00:09:36.960
And um I still go to that meeting.
00:09:37.039 --> 00:09:37.519
I still do.
00:09:37.679 --> 00:09:39.519
I was just there, you know, two nights ago.
00:09:39.679 --> 00:09:40.240
Incredible.
00:09:40.559 --> 00:09:46.639
No, it's awesome, and it grew into something to where I remember I went once, there was maybe 90 men there.
00:09:46.799 --> 00:09:48.480
Yep, and it's a men's stag group.
00:09:48.720 --> 00:09:55.600
It is a men's stag, and uh it's a it's a speaker meeting of sorts, and uh we actually did outgrow the original facility.
00:09:55.679 --> 00:10:03.759
So the Buchanan Log House on Elmhill Pike, we could not cram, you know, with all the all the Crisco in the world, we couldn't grease everybody up and cram them in.
00:10:03.840 --> 00:10:08.960
So we moved over to the annex of Donaldson First Church, and it we've seen nothing but growth.
00:10:09.120 --> 00:10:16.159
So we went again from four or five guys standing around a fire to between 80 and 120 people a week.
00:10:16.320 --> 00:10:17.279
We get everything.
00:10:17.360 --> 00:10:21.840
We get drugie buggies come and drop off their folks from the halfway houses and stuff.
00:10:21.919 --> 00:10:26.320
Uh, we get newcomers, and and that's what that meeting really is focused on is the newcomers.
00:10:26.399 --> 00:10:28.399
We want them to come in and feel that energy.
00:10:28.559 --> 00:10:29.759
It's it's incredible.
00:10:29.919 --> 00:10:30.720
It's incredible.
00:10:31.039 --> 00:10:33.519
Um, thank you for bringing me into that meeting.
00:10:33.679 --> 00:10:34.159
Yeah, 100%.
00:10:34.480 --> 00:10:40.799
I was you brought me in as a speaker, so told miniaturized version of my story and brought topic.
00:10:41.039 --> 00:10:46.960
Um, going to that meeting, I never found something that really felt like a home group here.
00:10:47.279 --> 00:10:50.960
You know, I I went to maybe five, six different meetings before that.
00:10:51.200 --> 00:10:54.480
Never really found my footing and my my group.
00:10:54.639 --> 00:11:01.120
Not that you need to, right, but I remember going to the log cabin group and there's this undeniable love.
00:11:01.440 --> 00:11:06.799
Like if you walk into that meeting and you don't know anyone, somebody will come and shake your hand.
00:11:07.039 --> 00:11:07.440
100%.
00:11:08.159 --> 00:11:14.879
So if there's anybody listening to this episode in the Nashville area, you should definitely check out the log cabin group.
00:11:15.120 --> 00:11:16.399
Tuesdays, 7 30.
00:11:16.720 --> 00:11:18.000
Tuesdays at 7 30.
00:11:18.080 --> 00:11:19.840
We do a meeting before the meeting.
00:11:19.919 --> 00:11:22.799
We meet at uh Panera Bread on Royal Parkway.
00:11:22.879 --> 00:11:24.480
Um longer fat bites.
00:11:24.879 --> 00:11:37.840
No, we started with Panera and then we started doing some other restaurants in the area, but there's um there's a cost consideration for newcomers, and we don't want cost to be a barrier to getting in that fellowship.
00:11:38.000 --> 00:11:41.360
So we'll meet, we usually meet about an hour and a half before the meeting.
00:11:41.600 --> 00:11:45.919
Um and uh, you know, get get the new guys plugged in.
00:11:46.080 --> 00:11:49.279
And then we also do things outside of those two things.
00:11:49.440 --> 00:11:55.279
So, for example, tonight, the log cabin men's group is going to a movie out at the Thoroughbred in Franklin.
00:11:55.519 --> 00:11:56.720
We do that once a month.
00:11:56.799 --> 00:11:59.360
Um, we also do incredible amounts of service.
00:11:59.600 --> 00:12:01.279
Like I had said before we started today.
00:12:01.360 --> 00:12:04.159
I was at a detox house over on Haywood Lane last night.
00:12:04.240 --> 00:12:10.320
Uh, we do outreach to um uh uh the um the DUI school.
00:12:10.480 --> 00:12:13.039
Uh we do uh at Williamson County, yeah.
00:12:13.200 --> 00:12:14.639
I will uh no, I think it's Davidson.
00:12:14.960 --> 00:12:24.799
I've not been, but um yeah, that's something that we also do as far as service and outreach, and then um again detox centers and uh and halfway houses and stuff like that.
00:12:24.960 --> 00:12:30.000
So you know, service being an important kind of cornerstone of my recovery, I'm all about it.
00:12:30.080 --> 00:12:30.960
I just love doing it.
00:12:31.200 --> 00:12:35.360
I love I love helping the newcomer because they helped me.
00:12:35.840 --> 00:12:46.240
Uh it's it's funny because uh leading up to this episode, we were talking about how you're our first guest that doesn't work in treatment, but technically you do with all the service.
00:12:46.559 --> 00:12:47.360
I volunteer in treatment.
00:12:47.759 --> 00:12:49.279
You volunteer in treatment.
00:12:49.519 --> 00:12:51.600
Yes, that's way better put.
00:12:52.080 --> 00:13:07.120
Um I do want to start getting into some consequences, not to shift gears, but um so you had blackouts, job losses, pancreatitis, yes, um, which I heard is awfully painful, and also lead from drinking.
00:13:07.440 --> 00:13:13.440
So what you know, what took you so long for this to stick and even after the hospitalization?
00:13:13.759 --> 00:13:14.240
Sure.
00:13:14.799 --> 00:13:18.799
Yeah, it's um it's the damnedest thing.
00:13:18.879 --> 00:13:28.399
Uh it's it is um despite all of those consequences, missed opportunities, lost opportunities piling up, I soldiered on.
00:13:28.720 --> 00:13:37.279
You know, sometimes I wish that I had the type of dedication that I had to drinking and could apply that to things that are actually productive.
00:13:37.519 --> 00:13:39.840
But unfortunately, that was not in the cards for me.
00:13:40.000 --> 00:13:40.159
Yeah.
00:13:40.480 --> 00:13:43.919
Um what did it take?
00:13:44.159 --> 00:13:50.960
Well, uh the first the first time that I really made an earnest attempt to get sober was in the summer of 2018.
00:13:51.279 --> 00:13:57.279
And the consequence was my wife caught me drunk at 10 o'clock in the morning and said, Uh-oh.
00:13:57.679 --> 00:13:58.399
That's it, man.
00:13:58.960 --> 00:14:00.000
We gotta do something.
00:14:00.480 --> 00:14:00.639
Yeah.
00:14:00.960 --> 00:14:04.799
And um I got sober at that point for the wrong reason.
00:14:04.960 --> 00:14:07.039
I got I got sober to save my marriage.
00:14:07.279 --> 00:14:10.080
And um that lasted uh 14 months.
00:14:10.399 --> 00:14:18.080
So I white knuckled it and did all of the bare minimum, everything to make it look like I was doing everything I needed to do.
00:14:18.159 --> 00:14:21.120
I was checking the boxes, I was getting an A plus in recovery.
00:14:21.279 --> 00:14:24.000
But there was no service, there was no outside anything.
00:14:24.080 --> 00:14:26.879
I was going to a meeting, you know, probably five days a week.
00:14:26.960 --> 00:14:32.559
I was going to the East Side Sunlighters at 7:30 in the morning and uh getting to know those folks a little bit.
00:14:32.639 --> 00:14:34.559
But uh that only lasted about a year.
00:14:34.720 --> 00:14:41.759
And then so I stopped going to meetings in June of 2018, uh uh 2019, and uh I relapsed in August of 2019.
00:14:42.480 --> 00:14:43.600
Did you have a sponsor at this time?
00:14:43.840 --> 00:14:45.519
I did, my same sponsor that I have now.
00:14:45.600 --> 00:14:48.879
Uh Chris F has been my sponsor since the summer of 2018.
00:14:49.039 --> 00:14:53.919
He shepherded me through that relapse and uh got me got me to treatment when I needed it the most.
00:14:54.240 --> 00:14:55.759
We'll we'll definitely get more into that.
00:14:56.000 --> 00:14:56.480
Yeah, 100%.
00:14:56.879 --> 00:15:00.240
But the pancreatitis that you had, was that in 2018?
00:15:00.480 --> 00:15:01.519
That was in 2011.
00:15:01.679 --> 00:15:01.840
Okay.
00:15:02.080 --> 00:15:07.759
So we moved to today is my 15th anniversary moving to the city of Nashville from Milwaukee, Wisconsin.
00:15:07.919 --> 00:15:08.559
Oh, that's good.
00:15:08.720 --> 00:15:12.159
And uh I in we moved here in February of 2011.
00:15:12.320 --> 00:15:14.559
Unfortunately, I took me with me.
00:15:14.639 --> 00:15:19.360
So I was even though I pulled the geographic, I didn't I didn't get away from anything.
00:15:19.679 --> 00:15:25.360
So by I think that was June of 2011, I was in the hospital with pancreatitis.
00:15:25.519 --> 00:15:33.600
And uh I was in the hospital for about a week and um was released from the hospital, and I think I didn't drink for about 10 days after that.
00:15:33.919 --> 00:15:37.200
It scared you for 10 days, it scared me for 10 days, and that's exactly what it was.
00:15:37.360 --> 00:15:41.519
Well, oh, you know, this is a real consequence, and I'll never drink again for a while.
00:15:43.679 --> 00:15:56.879
So um unfortunately that made my drinking career a little bit more dangerous because it had become clear that I could no longer function in public while under the influence, but all I wanted to do was be under the influence.
00:15:57.039 --> 00:16:03.600
So I stopped going to bars and restaurants for my drinks, and I started going to liquor stores and bodegas for my drinks.
00:16:03.919 --> 00:16:10.320
And uh it became much more dangerous at that point because I was literally hiding it from everybody.
00:16:10.480 --> 00:16:16.960
I was hiding it from my wife, I was hiding it from my friends, I was hiding it from my from my bosses, I was hiding it from everybody.
00:16:17.279 --> 00:16:21.840
And um the way that I drank was very, very dangerous.
00:16:22.080 --> 00:16:23.360
Um binge?
00:16:23.600 --> 00:16:27.120
Binge binge a hundred percent and binge seven nights a week.
00:16:27.279 --> 00:16:29.200
I mean, yeah, and what what did that look like?
00:16:29.360 --> 00:16:32.000
Sometimes in the morning, always in the morning, never in the morning.
00:16:32.159 --> 00:16:35.919
So, again, as alcoholics and addicts, we make rules for ourselves.
00:16:36.080 --> 00:16:41.840
And I had been uh fired from, you know, by the time I left Milwaukee, I was essentially unemployable.
00:16:42.000 --> 00:16:46.320
I had burned through all the goodwill, all the good friends, all the everything.
00:16:46.480 --> 00:16:49.519
I had just set the world on fire in Milwaukee.
00:16:49.600 --> 00:16:53.840
I could not be trusted, I could not be lived with, I couldn't do anything.
00:16:54.000 --> 00:16:57.519
And I moved here and it was still that same, like, you know.
00:16:58.159 --> 00:17:05.759
And uh so my landlord got me a job at a restaurant in East Nashville, and you'll never guess what happened.
00:17:05.920 --> 00:17:08.079
I got fired for being drunk on the job.
00:17:08.240 --> 00:17:16.559
No, and so that was the rule that I set for myself is that I would never jeopardize a job again because of my drinking.
00:17:16.720 --> 00:17:23.759
Now it it would never occur to the mind of an after of an active alcoholic that that might be the problem.
00:17:23.920 --> 00:17:24.960
No, no, no, no, no.
00:17:25.119 --> 00:17:25.759
Forget it.
00:17:25.920 --> 00:17:26.319
Right, right.
00:17:26.480 --> 00:17:28.960
So here this was my ritual.
00:17:29.359 --> 00:17:33.119
I would get off of work usually between 10 and 10:30 at night.
00:17:33.279 --> 00:17:35.440
Liquor stores in Tennessee close at 11.
00:17:35.599 --> 00:17:38.079
So buzz on over to the liquor store.
00:17:38.400 --> 00:17:42.400
Pardon me, and uh buy enough to get me through that night.
00:17:42.480 --> 00:17:45.440
Because I can't have like a handle of whiskey just sitting at the house.
00:17:45.599 --> 00:17:47.279
I don't drink anymore, right?
00:17:47.440 --> 00:17:47.759
Right, right.
00:17:48.000 --> 00:17:55.759
And so I would buy usually a pint of vodka, and then I would buy two big pistons of some kind of a beer.
00:17:56.000 --> 00:18:00.160
So Pabst, uh, you know, my hometown favorite, it's my culture.
00:18:00.400 --> 00:18:08.480
And um so what I would do is I would drink the two beers on the way home.
00:18:09.119 --> 00:18:12.319
To warm you up, like a let's get let's get primed.
00:18:12.640 --> 00:18:14.079
You're not too buzzed to dry.
00:18:14.480 --> 00:18:15.119
Right, right.
00:18:15.200 --> 00:18:17.519
And you can chug them down in the car, be good to go.
00:18:17.680 --> 00:18:22.400
You know, stop at the gas station, toss them in the trash, and then get home, crack into that pint.
00:18:22.640 --> 00:18:27.839
And w when I say that I would drink half that pint all in one swallow, I'm not kidding.
00:18:28.000 --> 00:18:37.839
So I would have, you know, some kind of a soda or lemonade or something like that, pour half of that pint into the cup, fill it up this much, put this much liquid on top of it.
00:18:38.079 --> 00:18:40.640
And I can I can still consume liquid like that.
00:18:40.720 --> 00:18:44.160
I could take this and just go, and that's exactly what I would do.
00:18:44.319 --> 00:18:50.960
So you're talking, I think that a pint is like 10 measured drinks.
00:18:51.119 --> 00:18:51.279
Yeah.
00:18:51.519 --> 00:18:56.079
And then in addition to that, I had the two tall boys on the way home.
00:18:56.319 --> 00:19:01.359
So I'm consuming 15 drinks within about 90 minutes.
00:19:02.319 --> 00:19:03.039
That's a steep.
00:19:03.359 --> 00:19:04.079
That's a steep.
00:19:04.240 --> 00:19:04.400
Yeah.
00:19:04.559 --> 00:19:06.960
And I did that for seven, eight years.
00:19:07.680 --> 00:19:13.440
And um, I was just discussing this at the and and everything that would come along with that.
00:19:13.920 --> 00:19:16.000
So of course you're gonna pass out.
00:19:16.160 --> 00:19:17.759
Of course you're gonna piss yourself.
00:19:17.920 --> 00:19:22.160
Of course you're going to black out and say and do things that you don't mean.
00:19:22.240 --> 00:19:26.960
I mean, you're drinking an insane amount of alcohol all at once.
00:19:27.200 --> 00:19:27.359
Yeah.
00:19:27.519 --> 00:19:27.759
Yeah.
00:19:28.319 --> 00:19:36.640
And and more than, you know, obviously I'm chasing oblivion at this point, but it's more I don't want to get caught.
00:19:37.279 --> 00:19:38.079
Full stop.
00:19:38.240 --> 00:19:38.559
Yeah.
00:19:38.799 --> 00:19:46.720
Um and the the hangovers that would be accompanying that the next morning were just devastation.
00:19:47.279 --> 00:19:50.079
How did you get through the hangovers and still make work?
00:19:50.640 --> 00:19:55.279
The well, the good news is that I would never have to be at work until three in the afternoon.
00:19:55.440 --> 00:20:14.160
And so I would wake up probably 8 30, 9 o'clock in the morning, certain that I was gonna die, and uh just spend that uh spend that three, four hours just recovering, just recovering uh liquids, foods, you know, cold showers, you know, whatever.
00:20:14.240 --> 00:20:21.279
But you know, a lot of times what I would do is I would wake up at 8 30, eat something, drink something, non-alcoholic, and then just go back to bed.
00:20:21.440 --> 00:20:26.720
You know, especially when my wife had a day job, you know, she would leave for work 9 30, 10 o'clock in the morning.
00:20:26.880 --> 00:20:28.000
I was right back to bed.
00:20:28.240 --> 00:20:35.359
Wake back up at 2 o'clock, get in the shower, try and wash as much of the vodka off of me as possible, and then stagger into work.
00:20:35.599 --> 00:21:00.079
Um we all I remember making um I I don't know how to phrase this, but I remember kind of like bending my life to be hung over or maybe continue drinking at work, to where my friend Dave, that used to be a server way back in the day, he told me that when he was a server and hung over, um, normally he would have his tray in his left hand.
00:21:00.240 --> 00:21:02.799
When he was shaky, he would put it in his right hand.
00:21:03.039 --> 00:21:04.720
And he's like, that's how I got through.
00:21:04.799 --> 00:21:13.200
Where it's so it's like we do these things to allow us to repeat these bad behaviors and like ruining our life.
00:21:13.440 --> 00:21:16.799
The the pancreatitis, does did it ever happen again?
00:21:17.119 --> 00:21:17.359
No.
00:21:17.599 --> 00:21:17.920
Okay.
00:21:18.079 --> 00:21:19.519
Luckily, which is bizarre.
00:21:19.759 --> 00:21:22.880
Yeah, because I heard that it it once it happens, it can reoccur.
00:21:23.359 --> 00:21:24.559
It can become chronic.
00:21:24.720 --> 00:21:27.920
And uh the fact that that never happened is is a miracle.
00:21:28.160 --> 00:21:33.279
But I was suffering medically from my alcohol intake.
00:21:33.359 --> 00:21:35.680
And don't forget, I'm lying to everybody.
00:21:35.839 --> 00:21:41.119
I'm lying to everybody, my wife, my family, my coworkers, and my doctor.
00:21:41.359 --> 00:21:50.319
So I would go to the doctor, you know, once a year or once every six months, and they would do a blood draw, and they'd be like, dude, your LDL is off the charts.
00:21:50.400 --> 00:21:52.480
Your triglycerides are off the charts.
00:21:52.559 --> 00:21:55.359
You're pre diabetic, you know, what are you doing?
00:21:55.440 --> 00:21:57.440
And I'm like, oh cheeseburgers are good.
00:21:58.880 --> 00:21:59.440
Yeah, 100%.
00:22:00.160 --> 00:22:05.839
And um I was on, I had high blood pressure, so I was on high blood pressure meds and this and that and the other thing.
00:22:05.920 --> 00:22:11.759
And it turns out you take the alcohol out of the equation and everything else, everything just goes back to normal.
00:22:11.920 --> 00:22:14.160
So I am no longer on blood pressure meds.
00:22:14.240 --> 00:22:18.799
I'm no longer, well, I do take a uh statin for cholesterol, but that's more of a function of my age.
00:22:19.119 --> 00:22:19.759
Same disease.
00:22:20.000 --> 00:22:20.160
Yeah.
00:22:20.240 --> 00:22:20.400
Yeah.
00:22:20.880 --> 00:22:26.160
So um, but I did have to have that day of reckoning with my doctor too.
00:22:26.240 --> 00:22:30.799
Like, hey, I've been pulling your leg for almost 10 years, and uh here we are.
00:22:31.200 --> 00:22:40.400
You've made some even healthier choices getting sober because I know that you've done Pilates for a really long time, and I think you were doing it like almost daily.
00:22:40.720 --> 00:22:43.519
I was doing Pilates six days a week up until December.
00:22:43.599 --> 00:22:49.920
I had surgery on my foot uh in December, and I'm just about out of the woods as far as getting cleared to go back.
00:22:50.000 --> 00:22:54.640
Um, so I'm expecting to return, make a triumphant return to Pilates in the next couple weeks.
00:22:55.039 --> 00:22:56.559
Good, good for you.
00:22:57.440 --> 00:23:00.799
Um I'm thankful that the pancreatitis never came back.
00:23:01.119 --> 00:23:17.680
Yeah, I dodged a lot of bullets, and and I can't emphasize that enough, especially when you spend time in the rooms with people who and you know, we try to avoid war stories because everybody's got them, but invariably it it comes up the consequences that other people faced.
00:23:17.759 --> 00:23:22.640
And I think I think about how many times I snatched victory from the jaws of defeat.
00:23:22.799 --> 00:23:25.839
I am a rabbit's foot when it comes to consequences.
00:23:26.000 --> 00:23:33.599
Um, I did I did manage two DUIs, um, but other than that, I mean, not a whole lot.
00:23:33.759 --> 00:23:34.400
Not a whole lot.
00:23:34.720 --> 00:23:42.799
I do remember a story when you were drinking heavily, and this is a kind of a figment of my imagination almost.
00:23:43.039 --> 00:23:55.200
This is maybe 2017, 2018, something like that, where you drank way too much and the next morning, or maybe that night, they uh you went to the hospital or something and they had to give you a banana bag, what do you called it?
00:23:55.920 --> 00:23:57.759
That was in 2015.
00:23:58.559 --> 00:24:05.599
Um, I don't remember the circumstances leading up to well, I mean It's probably one of our lunches you told me about that.
00:24:05.759 --> 00:24:23.279
Yeah, I I drank uh until I had completely lost consciousness and I was, you know, passed out on the living room floor, and my wife um was basically trying to get me to wake up and and saying, Hey, if you don't wake up, man, I'm I'm gonna have to call an ambulance.
00:24:23.359 --> 00:24:24.799
I'm gonna have to call an ambulance.
00:24:24.960 --> 00:24:26.400
And so she did.
00:24:26.559 --> 00:24:35.039
And uh yeah, I got picked up and taken to Skyline Medical Center, put on a banana bag and uh and brought back to life in a way, I guess.
00:24:35.359 --> 00:24:37.279
I'm guessing it's a banana bag because it's yellow.
00:24:37.519 --> 00:24:39.440
Yes, yeah, it's bright, bright yellow.
00:24:39.599 --> 00:24:50.000
And uh, I I don't know is it potassium or something that they put in it, but they they they colloquially refer to it as a banana bag, and it's just all of the things that you need to live.
00:24:52.240 --> 00:25:05.920
Um but yeah, and that was we were supposed to, I think that was in March of 2015, and we were supposed to, I think the following Monday, we were supposed to leave for New Orleans and we were gonna go get married, and that all got put on hold.
00:25:06.319 --> 00:25:09.359
We still made the trip to New Orleans, but we did not get married.
00:25:09.599 --> 00:25:11.680
Um we didn't get married until two years later.
00:25:12.480 --> 00:25:21.759
Tumultuous times, it seems like autumn really chaos you guys have made a way of working things out and improving your lives together.
00:25:22.160 --> 00:25:28.240
Yeah, it's uh and it and it did nearly cost me the relationship several times.
00:25:28.480 --> 00:25:37.759
Several times and um lie through my teeth, you know, um because I was really good at hiding it.
00:25:38.240 --> 00:25:55.359
Like, you know, show me, show me the empty bottles, show me the this, show me the that, you know, and and she could never so she couldn't she couldn't pin me down and say crafty dude like like pen and teller level of magician uh work.
00:25:55.599 --> 00:25:59.680
Wow, you know, sneak out, grab a bottle, hide a bottle here, hide a bottle there.
00:25:59.920 --> 00:26:05.119
You know, and part of part of why I drank so quickly was because I needed to get the evidence out of the house.
00:26:05.440 --> 00:26:06.480
Right, right, right, right, yeah.
00:26:06.720 --> 00:26:08.880
Um you had a system down.
00:26:09.200 --> 00:26:12.720
Oh, it was it was an airtight system, airtight.
00:26:13.200 --> 00:26:17.759
Uh amongst all this, and I don't know when, but cocaine entered the picture.
00:26:18.079 --> 00:26:21.759
How did that change the way you drank and also your denial at that point?
00:26:22.160 --> 00:26:27.359
I was very fortunate to uh have been able to just put cocaine down.
00:26:27.519 --> 00:26:37.519
Uh there was about a three-year period when I was doing cocaine almost every day, when I was the general manager of a restaurant in Milwaukee, and um the place was just a cocaine paradise.
00:26:37.599 --> 00:26:38.640
It was just everywhere.
00:26:39.039 --> 00:26:40.720
So that's how it got introduced.
00:26:41.200 --> 00:26:47.839
Yeah, I don't I don't I don't I can't think of a single other person on earth who tries cocaine for the first time at age 30, but that was me.
00:26:47.920 --> 00:26:51.119
Yeah, I had never touched it, never been around it, never this, never that.
00:26:51.599 --> 00:26:52.400
And with work folk?
00:26:52.720 --> 00:26:52.960
Yes.
00:26:53.119 --> 00:26:53.519
I'm guessing.
00:26:53.920 --> 00:26:54.079
Yes.
00:26:54.240 --> 00:27:01.440
So it started with there was a guy who would eventually become my Coke dealer, um, and I noticed he was just hanging out between the bathrooms.
00:27:01.599 --> 00:27:05.039
We were one of the first uh bars in the city to do a service industry night.
00:27:05.119 --> 00:27:08.480
And so we would just be overrun with maniacs every Sunday night.
00:27:08.640 --> 00:27:13.359
And there's this one guy just hanging out between the bathrooms, and everybody seems to know him, right?
00:27:13.759 --> 00:27:17.279
And so I walk up to him like, I'm the general manager here.
00:27:17.440 --> 00:27:19.200
Do you think I don't know what you're doing?
00:27:19.359 --> 00:27:24.160
And he literally asks me how much he's got to kick to me in order to keep doing what he's doing.
00:27:24.640 --> 00:27:28.079
I don't know anything about coke, so I'm like, Yeah, give me a quarter.
00:27:28.319 --> 00:27:34.160
So every Sunday I'm getting a free quarter ounce of cocaine, like two eight balls basically.
00:27:34.400 --> 00:27:36.799
And I became a damn popular guy after that.
00:27:37.440 --> 00:27:39.920
And I'm still married to my first wife at that time.
00:27:40.079 --> 00:27:48.480
And so I'm I'm blowing everything up at home, but I'm just like fancying myself a mini little scarface, you know, when I go to work.
00:27:48.720 --> 00:27:52.720
And um of course that job crashed and burned.
00:27:52.799 --> 00:27:53.839
Uh, I got fired.
00:27:54.079 --> 00:27:56.400
And um did it allow you to drink more?
00:27:56.480 --> 00:28:01.759
Because I know that some people will introduce a drug like that and upper, so it allows them to drink more and longer.
00:28:02.079 --> 00:28:02.319
Yes.
00:28:02.480 --> 00:28:10.799
And and um I would it's hard to gauge at that point because you know that I'm we're talking 2004, 2005.
00:28:10.880 --> 00:28:14.400
So that's relatively early in when the switch happened.
00:28:14.559 --> 00:28:21.920
You know, I used to just be a heavy drinker when the when the switch flipped to being an alcoholic when I was 27 or 28.
00:28:22.000 --> 00:28:24.319
So I was still only a couple years in.
00:28:24.559 --> 00:28:34.559
And um, yeah, I I think I thought I could drink more and function better, but things got real wobbly on Coke.
00:28:34.720 --> 00:28:42.799
And uh again, I think I probably did Coke regularly for for about two and a half years or so.
00:28:42.960 --> 00:28:44.240
And I'll never forget it.
00:28:44.319 --> 00:28:52.799
I just woke up one day and it was just like, I don't like these people, I don't like this scene, I don't like the come down, I don't like anything, I don't like how expensive it is.
00:28:53.119 --> 00:28:56.319
So I just walked away and didn't really do it again.
00:28:56.559 --> 00:29:03.680
Um, however, interesting cocaine is in the story of my relapse in 2019.
00:29:03.920 --> 00:29:06.720
Uh that's that's what kind of brought me back to the booze.
00:29:06.960 --> 00:29:10.240
We were in Mexico celebrating our wedding anniversary.
00:29:10.400 --> 00:29:11.839
Oh my god, this is terrible.
00:29:12.160 --> 00:29:14.160
Celebrating our wedding anniversary.
00:29:14.880 --> 00:29:22.720
And uh we were in uh we were in Cabo and uh we're at a resort in Cabo, and I'm um it's like the morning, we're swimming.
00:29:22.799 --> 00:29:26.480
I get up, I walk, you can't really walk the beach that in that part of Cabo.
00:29:26.559 --> 00:29:38.960
Uh it's all rocky and stuff, but uh, there's a bunch of people hanging out down there, and I'm just sitting on the seawall looking over the ocean, and all of a sudden, just some guy on the beach is like, hey amigo, hey amigo, you want?
00:29:39.359 --> 00:29:43.039
And he just shows me this baggie of white powder.
00:29:43.279 --> 00:29:47.279
So, what's the smart thing to do during the height of this opioid crisis, right?
00:29:47.440 --> 00:29:52.319
Yeah, of course you buy a bag of white powder from a stranger in a foreign country.
00:29:52.480 --> 00:29:53.759
What could possibly go wrong?
00:29:54.480 --> 00:30:04.319
So I'm ripping lines, and by the time the vacation is over, I've cracked into the mini bar and I'm in I'm in full relapse.
00:30:04.559 --> 00:30:08.400
So now I've returned to the United States with a little secret in my pocket.
00:30:08.799 --> 00:30:19.200
Just to prove that no matter what it is, if it's cocaine, weed, whatever your drug of choice is, if you dabble in something else, it will bridge you to because it's not your drug of choice.
00:30:19.519 --> 00:30:19.599
Right.
00:30:20.319 --> 00:30:20.400
Right.
00:30:20.559 --> 00:30:32.720
Because you're just gonna be tickling, you're just gonna be tickling that uh, you know, I I always forget how the science of it works, but like heroin pokes at this one, cocaine pokes at this one, meth pokes at this one, weed pokes at this one.
00:30:32.960 --> 00:30:35.440
Um alcohol fires all of them.
00:30:35.599 --> 00:30:38.880
So if you're tickling one of them, of course I want all of them to fire.
00:30:39.039 --> 00:30:39.200
Right.
00:30:39.440 --> 00:30:41.759
You know, because that's that's my DOC.
00:30:41.839 --> 00:30:45.119
That's that's that's my comfort zone, is in that oblivion.
00:30:45.599 --> 00:31:02.720
So to demonstrate the progressive nature of this illness, my story is uh it's a uh is a prime example of that because I relapsed in August of 2019 and I ended up in re in rehab in uh April of 2020.
00:31:02.880 --> 00:31:04.160
So that's eight months.
00:31:04.319 --> 00:31:14.799
It took me eight months to get back to where it had taken me 45 years to get to the first time, which is to me demonstrable proof that the next time is gonna be the last time.
00:31:15.279 --> 00:31:17.279
I won't survive if I go out again.
00:31:17.839 --> 00:31:25.599
Um your your first trip, 2018 to rehab was I've only been I've only been to to rehab one time.
00:31:25.839 --> 00:31:26.880
That was in 2020.
00:31:27.119 --> 00:31:34.960
The other time when when when Autumn came home and found me hammered at 10 o'clock in the morning, that was a okay, I'm gonna go to AA.
00:31:35.359 --> 00:31:38.319
Because all the half measures in the world, right?
00:31:38.559 --> 00:31:41.839
You know, I'll I'll I'll do anything to not lose this relationship.
00:31:42.000 --> 00:31:46.000
You know, it was never boy, I sure need the separation.
00:31:46.079 --> 00:31:49.519
I need to be away from this and and release do some work.
00:31:49.680 --> 00:31:51.920
It's no, I'm gonna go, I'm gonna go to some meetings.
00:31:52.000 --> 00:32:03.680
You know, let's let's talk about half measures here because you've been vocal about having um about doing not doing half measures in recovery in treatment.
00:32:04.000 --> 00:32:08.559
How did that show up for you in doing half measures that first time?
00:32:08.720 --> 00:32:20.880
What how you know what did that lead you to from doing half measures, uh probably treatment, but how did you figure out to not do half measures and do the full met the full scope of treatment?
00:32:21.200 --> 00:32:24.400
I think that really speaks to the true nature of surrender.
00:32:24.799 --> 00:32:32.319
I think that um the half measures that I embarked upon over the years, which is and it says it in the literature too.
00:32:32.480 --> 00:32:35.200
Okay, I'm not gonna drink scotch anymore, I'm gonna switch to brandy.
00:32:35.279 --> 00:32:42.880
I'm okay, brandy's not working, I'm only gonna drink beer, I'm only gonna drink on the weekends, I'm only gonna drink with friends, I'm only gonna drink without friends, I'm only gonna do this, I'm only gonna do that.
00:32:43.039 --> 00:32:47.759
Those are the half measures that sort of punctuated my drinking career.
00:32:48.720 --> 00:33:00.960
Um the nature of the real surrender when I staggered across the threshold at Discovery Place, and my sponsor had told me, like do everything they tell you to do.
00:33:01.119 --> 00:33:03.440
Don't do your own version of what they tell you to do.
00:33:03.599 --> 00:33:05.599
Don't say I'm gonna do everything except that.
00:33:05.759 --> 00:33:06.559
You're gonna do all of it.
00:33:06.880 --> 00:33:08.720
If they tell you to do 90, 90, do it.
00:33:08.960 --> 00:33:09.200
Right.
00:33:09.359 --> 00:33:10.000
Yes, 100%.
00:33:10.559 --> 00:33:11.599
Get a sponsor, do it.
00:33:11.680 --> 00:33:11.839
Right.
00:33:12.079 --> 00:33:13.759
Get it you go through the steps, do it.
00:33:13.920 --> 00:33:14.079
Right.
00:33:14.480 --> 00:33:16.160
Work with a sponsee, do it.
00:33:16.480 --> 00:33:16.880
Yes.
00:33:17.599 --> 00:33:31.759
I think that um being willing to be teachable, being willing to accept that running on my own willpower is a road to an early grave.
00:33:32.000 --> 00:33:44.240
Um it took just that little opening of willingness for me to be like, okay, the way I'm doing this is it's it's not working.
00:33:44.400 --> 00:33:47.200
And so we're we're truly at a crossroads.
00:33:47.440 --> 00:33:50.160
I'm either going to die or I'm going to live.
00:33:50.319 --> 00:33:52.079
That's those are my only two choices.
00:33:52.559 --> 00:34:00.400
And uh it became clear to me that with my track record and my history of these half measures, that the way I was doing it, it was gonna lead to death.
00:34:00.799 --> 00:34:07.119
And and um so I finally stopped listening with my mouth and started listening with my ears.
00:34:07.519 --> 00:34:22.480
And uh I met some really amazing people inside at Discovery Place, people that I'm still in contact with to this day, who were able to love me until I was able to just function and maybe love myself a little bit.
00:34:23.199 --> 00:34:32.480
Was part of this, and I know this is kind of my story, but was part of this was you didn't think you deserved a great life.
00:34:32.800 --> 00:34:37.840
And on top of that, you didn't think that you would live a long life as well.
00:34:38.239 --> 00:34:41.599
Because sometimes I think about that, and that's where I was mentally.
00:34:41.920 --> 00:34:42.239
Sure.
00:34:42.480 --> 00:35:02.639
Yeah, I I've I definitely in in getting to know myself, and and a lot of this was through writing a fourth step and going through the fifth step and and making uh quite a few amends over the years, is um from a very young age, I always felt an emptiness on the inside.
00:35:02.800 --> 00:35:06.079
And that necessarily to me led to an identity crisis.
00:35:06.159 --> 00:35:07.440
I never knew who I was.
00:35:07.679 --> 00:35:07.840
Right.
00:35:08.159 --> 00:35:15.679
All I knew was that I had this insatiable, unquenchable need to change the way I felt.
00:35:16.320 --> 00:35:17.599
And it started young.
00:35:17.760 --> 00:35:18.960
And it started young.
00:35:19.519 --> 00:35:24.559
Um I would I I was a voracious reader as a young person.
00:35:24.719 --> 00:35:44.880
I read above my um above my grade level starting early, and I would stay up until two, three, four in the morning just reading fantasy novels, horror novels, um, think completely age inappropriate novels because I could immerse in that and I was gone and I was a different person and I was living in that world.
00:35:45.119 --> 00:35:50.159
Part of it is where I grew up, and I'm sure you can identify because you grew up in the suburbs too.
00:35:50.480 --> 00:35:51.840
I can there's a name for it.
00:35:51.920 --> 00:35:52.800
It's called ennui.
00:35:53.119 --> 00:35:56.000
It is just like a uh an aimlessness.
00:35:56.320 --> 00:36:01.840
I I didn't know that what I was feeling was a lack of culture until I moved into the city, you know.
00:36:02.000 --> 00:36:08.400
But but to me, like if white flight was a place, it's where I grew up, and it's where you grew up.
00:36:08.559 --> 00:36:16.320
And it's just this this beige conformist, like kind of goofiness, and everything just felt fake to me.
00:36:16.559 --> 00:36:18.400
Um I couldn't wait to get out.
00:36:18.559 --> 00:36:25.199
Oh, dude, like there was a puff of smoke in in the shape of my body when I I turned 18 and I was like, bye.
00:36:25.280 --> 00:36:26.400
You're like, I gotta go.
00:36:26.559 --> 00:36:29.119
Like, I don't know what I'm looking for, but this ain't it.
00:36:29.440 --> 00:36:29.840
You know.
00:36:30.000 --> 00:36:39.519
Um, and then into adulthood, um in early adulthood, uh, I was more of a drugs guy than a booze guy early on.
00:36:39.679 --> 00:36:43.119
Uh psychedelics, you know, stuff like that.
00:36:43.199 --> 00:36:44.480
Uh, never anything hard.
00:36:44.559 --> 00:36:48.239
You know, the hardest thing I had ever done up until the age of 30 was acid, you know.
00:36:48.400 --> 00:36:55.039
Um, and it wasn't until I started bartending at age like 22 that I really started sort of developed my taste for alcohol.
00:36:55.199 --> 00:36:59.840
Um Do you think that that filled that hole in you better than everything else did?
00:37:00.079 --> 00:37:00.320
It did.
00:37:00.400 --> 00:37:03.760
It's like what Bill says when it when it says in Bill's story, I've arrived, right?
00:37:03.920 --> 00:37:04.960
Yeah, I've arrived.
00:37:05.119 --> 00:37:06.159
I'm the bartender.
00:37:06.320 --> 00:37:08.559
And and the place that I worked, it was in Tosa.
00:37:08.960 --> 00:37:11.599
It's an old, old school Italian restaurant.
00:37:11.679 --> 00:37:15.039
And it was like at the time that the Sopranos was real big and all that stuff.
00:37:15.199 --> 00:37:18.320
So everybody's a tough guy, and everybody's real this and real that.
00:37:18.400 --> 00:37:31.360
And I work for these guys that look like they're from central casting, you know, and uh so I met the most bizarre people, but I really felt like I belonged because you felt like you found yourself.
00:37:31.519 --> 00:37:38.719
I'm in a barroom that seats 200 people, and 75 of them know me by first name, and I've got what they want, right?
00:37:38.960 --> 00:37:43.440
So of course I'm the most popular guy in the room, you know, and there's you're all of a sudden the man.
00:37:43.519 --> 00:37:43.679
Yeah.
00:37:43.840 --> 00:37:44.480
And you're popular.
00:37:44.800 --> 00:37:50.239
And and um my feeling of detachment that I would carry with me.
00:37:50.400 --> 00:37:59.280
You put a couple cocktails on top of that, and all of a sudden, that anxiety about just ex existing in the world that just sort of gets muted a little bit.
00:37:59.360 --> 00:38:03.760
And all of a sudden I can talk to girls, and all of a sudden I can talk like a tough guy.
00:38:03.920 --> 00:38:09.199
And, you know, it it was it was an identity, but it wasn't my identity.
00:38:09.360 --> 00:38:11.760
It was just an identity that I was kind of putting on myself.
00:38:12.079 --> 00:38:14.239
Like we talked about in the program, you had a different mask on it.
00:38:14.400 --> 00:38:15.280
Yes, a hundred percent.
00:38:15.599 --> 00:38:17.440
And we have many different masks.
00:38:17.679 --> 00:38:20.880
Yes, yes, when we're using and an active addiction.
00:38:21.199 --> 00:38:22.800
None of which are authentic.
00:38:23.119 --> 00:38:23.599
Right, right.
00:38:23.840 --> 00:38:27.280
Which uh, you know, again, living a lie, you know.
00:38:28.559 --> 00:38:36.639
Um I mean, shifting gears here, I do want to talk about um you had a spiritual deficiency at what point?
00:38:36.800 --> 00:38:38.719
And when do you think you discovered that?
00:38:39.039 --> 00:38:44.960
And what did you do to not or or have a lack thereof of spirituality?
00:38:45.360 --> 00:38:51.679
I think that um I had conflated spirituality and religiosity, which are not the same thing.
00:38:51.920 --> 00:38:52.960
Oh gosh, me too.
00:38:53.199 --> 00:38:55.360
Can I can I give you a little timeout here?
00:38:55.599 --> 00:38:59.119
Because when I got a call, music here's helped get me sober.
00:38:59.280 --> 00:39:02.320
I went to Center City, um, Minnesota, the hazeled in there.
00:39:02.480 --> 00:39:02.719
Sure.
00:39:02.960 --> 00:39:07.280
And I was on the phone with admissions, and one of the questions was, Do you consider yourself spiritual?
00:39:07.519 --> 00:39:09.599
I thought she was asking if I'm religious.
00:39:10.159 --> 00:39:12.320
So, yeah, and I said, No.
00:39:14.719 --> 00:39:15.920
So I can level with that.
00:39:16.159 --> 00:39:17.039
Yeah, a hundred percent.
00:39:17.119 --> 00:39:23.119
I still consider myself to be uh what I refer to as uh as a militant agnostic.
00:39:23.280 --> 00:39:40.559
Like I just really don't buy into the structure of particularly American religion, which um yeah, I'm not here to bag on people who are religious because I know that I know a lot of people uh who live the faith.
00:39:40.880 --> 00:39:48.239
But when I was a kid, we went to church every Sunday and I went to Sunday school uh all the way up until I was confirmed.
00:39:48.320 --> 00:39:50.639
And then my parents were basically like, This is your choice.
00:39:50.719 --> 00:39:56.800
You're a confirmed member of this church, you can go or not go, which I'm really grateful to them for giving us that choice.
00:39:57.119 --> 00:39:59.760
You know, it's not like you're gonna do this and blah, blah, blah.
00:40:00.159 --> 00:40:01.199
It wasn't like that.
00:40:01.360 --> 00:40:22.800
But what I saw again feeding into that emptiness and lack of identity that I felt growing up, as I would, you know, the same people I went to church with are the same people that I went to school with, are the same people that I was existing in the society of that city with, and I would see people say and act a certain way on Sundays and then go out into the world and act the complete opposite.
00:40:22.960 --> 00:40:27.360
And to me, it was all just a big performative grift.
00:40:27.599 --> 00:40:37.679
And I still feel that way in a lot of respects, because I I think that in in the Christian tradition, I don't know what this is in the United States right now, but it ain't Christianity.
00:40:37.760 --> 00:40:39.440
It certainly is not Christ-like.
00:40:39.840 --> 00:40:46.880
Um but as an alcoholic, I dismissed that completely out of hand.
00:40:47.039 --> 00:40:50.480
You're weak-minded, you've got the problem, it's not me.
00:40:51.599 --> 00:40:59.840
Here's the thing, though, is that rejecting Christianity is not a rejection of spirituality.
00:41:00.000 --> 00:41:05.119
And the way that it was explained to me is particularly in early recovery at Discovery Place.
00:41:05.280 --> 00:41:08.639
I was talking to one of the one of the guides who works there.
00:41:08.800 --> 00:41:10.239
He says, How's your spiritual life?
00:41:10.320 --> 00:41:11.840
I said, non-existent.
00:41:12.639 --> 00:41:18.320
Okay, well, you're drinking with a religious fervor, and that just stopped me dead in my tracks.
00:41:18.639 --> 00:41:20.000
What the hell are you talking about?
00:41:20.239 --> 00:41:34.639
He says, Well, if it's the first thing you think about when you wake up because you're so hungover you can barely function, and it's the last thing you think about when you either go to sleep or more accurately lose consciousness, then you're worshiping at the altar of something.
00:41:34.880 --> 00:41:46.400
If if if you're worshiping at the altar of oblivion, and we can just kind of shift you on over to something a little bit more spiritual, I think that we can we can get you on the right path.
00:41:46.559 --> 00:41:50.079
And so I've I've been a big believer, and I wish I could dig up the original quote.
00:41:50.159 --> 00:41:52.719
I actually heard it from the actor Rain Wilson.
00:41:52.880 --> 00:42:09.119
Uh I don't and he came from some bizarre religious background, but uh the the the saying or the idiom or the axiom is um uh uh religion or um religion or Christianity or whatever.
00:42:09.280 --> 00:42:13.119
It's the blanket that we throw over the great mysteries to see what shape they are.
00:42:13.360 --> 00:42:19.519
Now, if if I reject Christianity on its face, that doesn't mean that those great mysteries don't still exist.
00:42:19.679 --> 00:42:21.119
And I was really helped.
00:42:21.199 --> 00:42:28.079
Uh we actually share a therapist, and before I left for treatment, he gave me a book to take with me to treatment.
00:42:28.320 --> 00:42:42.880
And uh it was bizarre because you were only allowed to bring conference-approved literature into Discovery Place, but for whatever reason they helped me to they they let me hold on to that book, and I read that book when I got really sick of reading the big book in the 12 and 12.
00:42:43.039 --> 00:43:10.639
I would crack open this book, and it was a book from the Buddhist tradition, and it talked about um how to meditate and the function of meditation, and I think that that is um that is what I've adopted as my spirituality is that um the sort of concept of karmic realignment that if you put you put out into the universe, generally speaking, you will receive the good back.
00:43:11.119 --> 00:43:16.480
And um that was what kind of crawled me out of that hole.
00:43:16.719 --> 00:43:18.000
Um that's wonderful.
00:43:18.239 --> 00:43:29.199
Yeah, I'm I and I also experienced a miracle, like the whole world shut down so I could go to treatment.
00:43:29.360 --> 00:43:33.679
Don't forget, April 20th, 2020, all the restaurants were closed.
00:43:33.840 --> 00:43:40.239
You know, I was on the phone with my boss telling her that I was leaving for treatment, and she was like, dude, there's no better time to do this.
00:43:40.320 --> 00:43:41.519
You're not missing any work.
00:43:41.760 --> 00:43:47.679
Matter of fact, I got paid$875 a week on enhanced unemployment when I went to treatment.
00:43:48.719 --> 00:43:48.960
Yeah.
00:43:49.119 --> 00:43:49.440
Yeah.
00:43:49.760 --> 00:43:59.599
Um so the closest thing that I come to say to saying like, thank God or thank Jesus or whatever, my my kind of catch all for that is no.
00:44:00.159 --> 00:44:00.880
Coincidences.
00:44:01.599 --> 00:44:07.599
Like if it wasn't a miracle, at least it needs to be acknowledged that this was no kind of coincidence.
00:44:07.760 --> 00:44:12.239
That this was just sort of the universe lining up so I could kind of like see the light.
00:44:12.480 --> 00:44:13.039
Yes.
00:44:13.199 --> 00:44:13.440
Yes.
00:44:13.840 --> 00:44:16.239
How has meditation helped you through this?
00:44:16.960 --> 00:44:22.719
So from that book that I had read, um here's the deal.
00:44:23.119 --> 00:44:25.519
And we had a shorthand for it inside of Discovery Place.
00:44:25.599 --> 00:44:26.960
We called it the Crazy Picture Show.
00:44:27.119 --> 00:44:28.320
The shorthand for it was this.
00:44:29.039 --> 00:44:29.920
Are you doing this right now?
00:44:30.079 --> 00:44:31.280
Are you doing this right now?
00:44:32.000 --> 00:44:37.679
Because inside my head is this constantly going just train of thought, and it is not rational.
00:44:37.920 --> 00:44:44.320
You know, it is it is anxiety-ridden, it is angry, it is judgmental, and it's not realistic.
00:44:44.400 --> 00:44:47.280
This is not the voice of reason that is running through my head.
00:44:47.440 --> 00:44:59.599
And in this book, they tell the story about in the Indian subcontinent, they, you know, India, Bhutan, Pakistan, all that stuff, they uh they don't treat dogs the same way that they do here.
00:44:59.679 --> 00:45:02.880
They don't necessarily keep them as pets, they just kind of run feral on the streets.
00:45:03.039 --> 00:45:08.880
So as you're walking through the cities in the Indian subcontinent, all you hear in the background is just dogs barking.
00:45:09.039 --> 00:45:11.119
Dogs barking, dogs barking, dogs barking.
00:45:11.440 --> 00:45:18.400
Several times throughout the day, for whatever reason, all the dogs stop barking at once.
00:45:18.880 --> 00:45:20.480
And then they start right back up.
00:45:20.719 --> 00:45:24.639
The purpose of meditation is not to become a great meditator.
00:45:24.880 --> 00:45:30.000
The purpose of meditation is to get those dogs to stop barking, if only for a couple of seconds.
00:45:30.079 --> 00:45:32.079
And that's where your clarity comes from.
00:45:32.239 --> 00:45:41.199
That's where your intention setting comes from, and that's where like the baseline comes from for you to be a functioning adult in the society.
00:45:41.440 --> 00:45:52.079
I wish I could say I was an amazing meditator or I did it with any sort of frequency or or or things like that, but it's it's uh it's a process and it's a journey, you know.
00:45:52.159 --> 00:45:53.840
Uh thank you for sharing all that.
00:45:54.159 --> 00:45:54.400
Of course.
00:45:54.559 --> 00:45:58.639
I I mean it's so wonderful that you found that and that you had the book on Buddhism with you.
00:45:59.280 --> 00:46:03.119
Uh I'm so curious about many tip different types of religion.
00:46:03.360 --> 00:46:11.440
I grew up Catholic and went to Catholic school until fourth grade and was forced into CCD in Sunday school until middle school.
00:46:11.840 --> 00:46:14.639
That's a whole nother conversation for a different time.
00:46:14.880 --> 00:46:23.519
But um I I struggled with getting sober and doing the 12-step program because of the G word.
00:46:24.400 --> 00:46:30.559
And I remember when I did the meeting at the log cabin group, that was my topic that I struggled with the G-word.
00:46:31.119 --> 00:46:41.440
And what what helped me, because this is so funny, there's so many strange parallels with brothers in recovery and or just recovery people in general.
00:46:41.679 --> 00:46:51.679
Um so when I went to Hazelden, there was this guy, Luke, in the room next to me, played sitar, musician, had a record label.
00:46:51.920 --> 00:46:53.039
He was a Buddhist.
00:46:53.599 --> 00:46:59.599
And I remember when I kept reading, kept reading the literature, and God kept being brought up.
00:46:59.760 --> 00:47:06.239
And I was I was said to the group, I'm like, hey, you guys, I don't believe in God.
00:47:06.880 --> 00:47:08.320
Am I gonna be okay?
00:47:09.119 --> 00:47:13.199
And they all gave me a hug and they're like, Yeah, of course, of course you're gonna be okay.
00:47:13.360 --> 00:47:22.079
And then Luke pulled me aside and said, Um, in the Buddhist literature, they don't read God as God, they read as good.
00:47:22.639 --> 00:47:26.559
So every time I read the literature from then on, I would read it as good.
00:47:26.639 --> 00:47:27.199
Yeah.
00:47:27.440 --> 00:47:31.840
And that kind of made me see past it and just take my blinders off.
00:47:32.079 --> 00:47:32.480
Sure.
00:47:32.719 --> 00:47:35.840
Um, so Buddhism in a way also helped me as well.
00:47:36.159 --> 00:47:36.400
Yeah.
00:47:36.639 --> 00:47:48.480
And and and I I think that the way that the program, the way that the 12-step program is structured, leaves room for the non-Christian, which I think is a very important.
00:47:48.880 --> 00:48:05.920
But again, all of my half measures, and I I say this all the time when I'm talking about the actual moment when I made the decision to go to treatment, where I'm like, I wish I could see my Google history at that time because it was literally like how to get sober without AA, how to do everything but AA.
00:48:06.719 --> 00:48:11.199
Because I was perceiving it as this thinly veiled Christian organization.
00:48:11.280 --> 00:48:12.639
And let's not get it twisted.
00:48:12.800 --> 00:48:14.000
That's where AA started.
00:48:14.159 --> 00:48:19.599
AA is an offshoot of the Oxford group, which is an evangelical Christian organization.
00:48:19.920 --> 00:48:31.920
But they realized early on that they were necessarily cutting out a portion of the population that was suffering because of their non-Christianity or their reticence toward Christianity.
00:48:32.239 --> 00:48:41.440
We've already gone over how I felt about the Christians that I had grown up with, that they were hypocrites and and jerks and all this stuff.
00:48:41.599 --> 00:48:48.719
But, you know, the when they say like God can be anything, it can be that doorknob over there.
00:48:48.880 --> 00:48:49.360
Okay, cool.
00:48:49.519 --> 00:48:50.159
I've heard that too.
00:48:50.400 --> 00:48:56.079
When we reach the part where I'm asking the doorknob to remove my character defects, then what do we do?
00:48:56.239 --> 00:48:58.239
You know, and my desire to drink.
00:48:58.480 --> 00:48:58.719
Right.
00:48:59.039 --> 00:49:05.679
And so God to me is the catch all for all of the things that are beyond my capacity to understand.
00:49:06.000 --> 00:49:08.800
Um, and that's how I kind of carry forward with it.
00:49:08.960 --> 00:49:12.400
And I've been a magnet for sponsees who struggle religiously.
00:49:12.480 --> 00:49:18.320
And I'm like, hey, you can achieve long-term sobriety without cracking a Bible one time, right?
00:49:18.480 --> 00:49:20.480
You know, um, which is great.
00:49:20.719 --> 00:49:32.559
You know, I think that um keeping our our our tent big and our umbrella broad is is one of the most important things about keeping this uh keeping this organization moving.
00:49:34.480 --> 00:49:36.079
Thank you for mentioning all that.
00:49:36.239 --> 00:49:36.480
Yeah.
00:49:36.719 --> 00:49:44.559
Because there are people out there that are still not getting sober because of the G word and the literature thinking it it's Catholic adjacent, you know.
00:49:45.440 --> 00:49:53.119
Um switching gears, you and your career have wildly changed.
00:49:53.199 --> 00:49:55.199
You've taken a 180, you're now a real litter.
00:49:55.360 --> 00:49:57.119
Yes, you're no longer in the service industry.
00:49:57.360 --> 00:49:57.920
That's correct.
00:49:58.159 --> 00:50:00.320
And you have you've teamed up with your wife.
00:50:00.800 --> 00:50:07.519
Like, tell me some moments lately that are so wildly different than when you used to work in the service industry.
00:50:07.760 --> 00:50:13.280
And also you guys working as a team, like how does this affect your marriage?
00:50:13.440 --> 00:50:14.800
Does it make it more stressful?
00:50:14.960 --> 00:50:16.559
Does it make it more harmonious?
00:50:16.719 --> 00:50:17.039
Yeah.
00:50:17.199 --> 00:50:21.760
Um, you know, do you guys show up differently for each other because you're also working together now?
00:50:21.840 --> 00:50:34.239
And I think that um getting out of the service industry was like the last little vestigial organ of my drinking career.
00:50:34.400 --> 00:50:40.639
You know, part of my drinking career was getting home late at night and leaving for work in the afternoon.
00:50:40.800 --> 00:50:48.159
And my wife even said it a couple of weeks ago, where she was like, I feel like we're finally grown-ups.
00:50:48.719 --> 00:50:50.239
Um like you're adulting.
00:50:50.480 --> 00:50:51.760
Like we're we're adulting, finally.
00:50:51.920 --> 00:51:01.119
We've been adulting this whole time, but it's been like adulting with a little asterisk next to it because I'm still, you know, I'm I'm running with a crowd that's half my age.
00:51:01.280 --> 00:51:03.039
You know, it's that that's what it is.
00:51:03.199 --> 00:51:07.760
Everybody I work with is, you know, 30 or younger, with very few exceptions.
00:51:07.920 --> 00:51:12.000
You know, most people find their way out of the industry, and I just stuck with it.
00:51:12.239 --> 00:51:16.800
You know, I worked with a lot of people that are now in their 60s that still work in the in the service industry.
00:51:16.880 --> 00:51:19.280
That's this is not a knock on that.
00:51:19.519 --> 00:51:20.159
No, not at all.
00:51:20.400 --> 00:51:20.960
Not at all.
00:51:21.199 --> 00:51:38.159
But you know, my wife had reached a crossroads in her career where she needed to hire somebody on, and it was just, you know, I was frustrated enough with my position in the service industry to be like, maybe I should try something different.
00:51:38.400 --> 00:51:41.440
She's like, Well, why don't you get your license and we'll get you the hell out of there?
00:51:41.519 --> 00:51:42.480
And that's what we did.
00:51:42.639 --> 00:51:45.440
And it's been, you know, it's obviously been an adjustment.
00:51:45.519 --> 00:51:47.679
You know, we have two different working styles.
00:51:48.159 --> 00:51:52.320
Um, we have different styles for getting out and finding business.
00:51:52.480 --> 00:52:04.639
You know, she's more the like pound the phone, scratching the dirt, and I'm more like, well, I've built relationships with people in all these different circles and all these different facets, and and I'm just gonna kind of I'm gonna bring it in that way.
00:52:04.960 --> 00:52:06.639
I think it's great that you guys are different thinkers.
00:52:06.800 --> 00:52:07.440
Oh, yeah, 100%.
00:52:07.760 --> 00:52:10.000
Um, that's that's uh there's a lot of net positives there.
00:52:10.239 --> 00:52:23.599
Yeah, something that we talked about just the other day where um we had gone, uh we had done some kind of a presentation or something, and she was Monday morning quarterbacking that presentation, and I was like, here's here's how we compliment each other.
00:52:23.840 --> 00:52:27.920
I overthink beforehand and you overthink after the fact.
00:52:28.079 --> 00:52:36.880
So we really balance each other out because you're not gonna hear any of my bullshit overthinking it on the front end, and I'm not gonna hear any of your bullshit overthinking it on the back end.
00:52:37.119 --> 00:52:38.639
You know, so it is.
00:52:38.800 --> 00:52:43.280
We have really become more of that like one unit.
00:52:43.440 --> 00:52:55.360
You know, there have been there have been times where we've been able to accomplish things uh in in the in this world where we refer to it as Autumn with four arms.
00:52:55.519 --> 00:53:02.719
Like this is where we're just able to to to just accomplish a little bit more just because we've got an extra set of hands here to do it, you know, which is incredible.
00:53:03.039 --> 00:53:05.599
I know that she's an amazing salesperson.
00:53:06.400 --> 00:53:13.440
Uh her previous job, she was winning awards all over the place, and she was the number one salesman.
00:53:13.599 --> 00:53:17.119
And um, you guys won trips all over the place.
00:53:18.800 --> 00:53:19.199
Yeah.
00:53:19.440 --> 00:53:24.559
So I know that she's really good at what she does, and I've also worked with her a bit too.
00:53:24.960 --> 00:53:31.039
Um you guys have a couple different properties now, and and you have so many things in the works.
00:53:31.199 --> 00:53:31.679
Yep.
00:53:31.920 --> 00:53:34.880
Um, I'm just congratulations on making the change.
00:53:35.199 --> 00:53:35.760
Thanks, man.
00:53:36.079 --> 00:53:38.559
You did go back to school at one point, too.
00:53:38.960 --> 00:53:42.239
Would you have done that while you're still fucked up and drinking?
00:53:42.559 --> 00:53:45.519
Uh the entire time that I was in school, I was an active addiction.
00:53:45.760 --> 00:53:45.920
Okay.
00:53:46.079 --> 00:53:46.320
Yep.
00:53:46.400 --> 00:53:48.800
So I went to how did that fare?
00:53:49.280 --> 00:53:52.400
Uh the results were were mixed.
00:53:52.559 --> 00:53:56.960
Um, I I didn't get my degree, and I I I still consider that to be a regret.
00:53:57.119 --> 00:54:08.880
But in, you know, I was going for a degree in public policy in political science, and like, you know, considering the current state of affairs, I don't know that that's an area that I would want to be working in actively at this time.
00:54:09.280 --> 00:54:11.119
It's nice to be informed, though, right.
00:54:11.360 --> 00:54:12.880
And have your own solid opinions.
00:54:12.960 --> 00:54:13.280
Yeah.
00:54:13.679 --> 00:54:23.920
And it Tom Morello from Rage Against the Machine had that one quote, uh, kind of digging into somebody, uh, ripping on him for having so many political ideals and ideas.
00:54:24.079 --> 00:54:30.960
And he's like, You don't have to be in a rock band and have uh political science doctorate through Harvard.
00:54:31.119 --> 00:54:31.360
Yeah.
00:54:31.440 --> 00:54:32.320
Uh, but I do.
00:54:32.480 --> 00:54:32.800
Yeah.
00:54:34.239 --> 00:54:36.320
Education's always power.
00:54:36.719 --> 00:54:37.280
A hundred percent.
00:54:37.599 --> 00:54:40.800
Um do you ever think that you'll go back and finish that?
00:54:41.280 --> 00:54:53.280
I've definitely thought about it because all that's left for me to do is basically an internship, um, which would be interesting throwing a 50-year-old in with a bunch of 22-year-olds doing their own.
00:54:53.360 --> 00:54:56.639
It's also not conducive to your lifestyle now and money.
00:54:56.960 --> 00:54:57.199
Right.
00:54:57.440 --> 00:54:59.599
Yeah, I couldn't imagine doing an internship right now.
00:55:00.000 --> 00:55:01.760
Yeah, it would be like a six-month internship.
00:55:01.840 --> 00:55:10.079
And and as a matter of fact, I was trying to put together an internship for the spring of 2020 to finish my degree, and then everything just kind of went to hell.
00:55:10.159 --> 00:55:12.880
The tornado happened, like all this stuff happened, COVID.
00:55:13.039 --> 00:55:16.880
I went to treatment, and uh, everything just has kind of backburnered.
00:55:16.960 --> 00:55:22.000
And once once I got out of treatment, it was like, you know what, that that's in the maybe pile down the road.
00:55:22.159 --> 00:55:33.519
And I may someday just finish up in order to, you know, just accomplish it and say that I did it, but I feel no urgency to get that done just because I don't think it's a field I would ever go into these days.
00:55:33.599 --> 00:55:33.760
Okay.
00:55:33.920 --> 00:55:36.960
You can't work in government in a state that hates government, right?
00:55:37.280 --> 00:55:37.840
It's just not.
00:55:38.480 --> 00:55:39.519
I was curious about that.
00:55:39.679 --> 00:55:41.280
So thank you for answering.
00:55:41.519 --> 00:56:02.480
And um, for for the addicts out there, this is one of my last questions, but for the for the addicts, alcoholics out there that haven't lost everything, what would you say to them that they're just continuing down this path, floating along, struggling, using, stealing, whatever they're doing, at whatever level, but they haven't lost everything.
00:56:02.719 --> 00:56:06.639
What would you say to them to help them or make them see the light?
00:56:07.199 --> 00:56:09.440
The bottom comes when you stop digging.
00:56:12.320 --> 00:56:18.480
Whatever you think rock bottom is, it can get so much worse.
00:56:19.679 --> 00:56:26.400
And you don't have to have somebody die to stop it.
00:56:28.400 --> 00:56:36.159
We live, particularly us, we live in Nashville, Tennessee, which is one of the most vibrant recovery communities in the entire world.
00:56:37.280 --> 00:56:40.559
And the good news is that we take everybody.
00:56:40.880 --> 00:56:41.760
We take everybody.
00:56:42.079 --> 00:56:50.079
It doesn't matter, and it says it in the literature, it doesn't matter how far down the scale you've come or you've gone, we're always here.
00:56:50.559 --> 00:56:51.679
We'll always accept you.
00:56:51.920 --> 00:56:54.800
We will you can fall into our arms.
00:56:55.599 --> 00:56:59.760
All you gotta do is stop fighting, stop digging, whatever it is.
00:57:00.000 --> 00:57:02.639
Um that bottom, it's endless.
00:57:02.880 --> 00:57:04.000
It's it you can keep digging.
00:57:04.239 --> 00:57:05.039
Oh, a hundred percent.
00:57:06.159 --> 00:57:12.480
What if somebody's thinking about getting sober but they're continuing because they don't have a viber community and recovery?
00:57:16.559 --> 00:57:22.559
I think it's possible to choose not to have that network.
00:57:23.920 --> 00:57:24.880
We can build that network.
00:57:25.039 --> 00:57:26.639
We are everywhere, you know.
00:57:26.719 --> 00:57:29.599
Um this again is a disease that does not discriminate.
00:57:29.840 --> 00:57:36.960
It doesn't matter if you're rich or poor or of any sort of protected status, there is a recovery community for you.
00:57:37.360 --> 00:57:40.880
Um we're not here to judge you, we're here to help you.
00:57:41.199 --> 00:57:44.480
And the the I stand on the shoulder of giants.
00:57:44.639 --> 00:57:49.119
There are people whose names I don't know that have paved this road for me.
00:57:49.280 --> 00:57:52.960
Um and I continue to do that for others.
00:57:53.360 --> 00:57:57.199
Um it doesn't matter.
00:57:57.360 --> 00:58:00.400
What whatever your your deepest, darkest secret is.
00:58:00.559 --> 00:58:04.559
I uh part of what I do is I receive fifth steps several times per year.
00:58:04.719 --> 00:58:05.840
I've heard some dark shit.
00:58:06.159 --> 00:58:07.360
I've done some dark shit.
00:58:07.519 --> 00:58:07.679
Yeah.
00:58:07.920 --> 00:58:17.199
And um, you know, at the end of the day, all of these things that we're holding inside that we're medicating or numbing with our drugs of choice are going to kill us.
00:58:17.440 --> 00:58:24.480
Right through, you know, anxiety, depression, alcohol use disorder, fear, you you name it.
00:58:24.639 --> 00:58:33.840
It it this is how this is how we die with without a serious readjustment and realignment of how we continue forward.
00:58:34.320 --> 00:58:36.960
And my suggestion would also be you could start your own.
00:58:37.119 --> 00:58:44.000
I mean, look at you showing up with three or four guys around a campfire, and it turned into a meeting of 90 to 120 every Tuesday.
00:58:44.480 --> 00:58:48.719
Um and there are also meetings that people probably don't know about in their area.
00:58:49.119 --> 00:58:49.360
Sure.
00:58:49.519 --> 00:58:57.039
Uh there's a uh there's a uh clubhouse that's right by where I live now that holds a midnight meeting once a week, and it's four people in the service industry.
00:58:57.440 --> 00:58:58.000
So crazy.
00:58:58.320 --> 00:58:58.960
Yeah, crazy, right?
00:58:59.519 --> 00:59:09.119
And then um I go to another meeting on Thursday nights that's um it's a it's a much smaller group um that focuses entirely on emotional sobriety.
00:59:09.599 --> 00:59:11.199
Steps six, seven, ten, and eleven.
00:59:11.360 --> 00:59:12.480
That's all we focus on.
00:59:13.039 --> 00:59:21.679
And it is it it's you know, it's four people who maybe have a couple of years under their belts and maybe are struggling to find something fresh and new or whatever.
00:59:22.000 --> 00:59:26.559
And you know, maybe your self-will without the substances is still running riot.
00:59:26.639 --> 00:59:30.639
Maybe you're obsessed with money, maybe you're obsessed with sex, maybe you're obsessed with gambling.
00:59:30.880 --> 00:59:31.280
Yeah.
00:59:31.440 --> 00:59:38.000
And um, yeah, so we focus strictly on six, seven, ten, and eleven that meets right around the corner here in Brentwood every Thursday night.
00:59:38.400 --> 00:59:39.039
So cool.
00:59:39.199 --> 00:59:39.519
Yeah.
00:59:39.840 --> 00:59:44.800
And um I I just kind of thank you enough for doing this.
00:59:45.039 --> 00:59:45.199
Yeah.
00:59:45.360 --> 00:59:49.599
Who would have thought when we were staggering around together in Cafe Holland or 17 years ago?
00:59:49.840 --> 00:59:53.199
That we'd be doing up on a podcast in Nashville, Tennessee.
00:59:53.440 --> 00:59:53.840
I know.
00:59:54.000 --> 00:59:57.920
It it this my life constantly blows my mind.
00:59:58.079 --> 01:00:00.480
Like I don't know how I got here, but I do.
01:00:00.719 --> 01:00:01.039
Yeah.
01:00:01.280 --> 01:00:09.840
You know, I I know the steps that I took and I know the things that I changed aligned and um just getting honest and also making mistakes.
01:00:10.079 --> 01:00:10.880
Oh, a hundred percent.
01:00:11.039 --> 01:00:16.320
I I think mistakes are the most beautiful thing because then you have something to correct.
01:00:16.719 --> 01:00:18.880
Uh but you have to get honest about your mistakes.
01:00:19.039 --> 01:00:19.519
Yeah.
01:00:19.840 --> 01:00:23.440
Um, and I I want to thank you for a few different things here.
01:00:23.519 --> 01:00:25.599
Uh, of course, for doing today.
01:00:25.679 --> 01:00:28.239
Uh I want to thank you for adopting Baxter, my dog.
01:00:28.480 --> 01:00:29.840
Oh, I forgot all about that.
01:00:30.880 --> 01:00:33.920
Um so my wife and I have a cat.
01:00:34.000 --> 01:00:38.000
It's her cat that I gained through marriage and relationship.
01:00:38.159 --> 01:00:39.440
And they don't get along.
01:00:39.679 --> 01:00:41.760
They would fight like cats and dogs.
01:00:42.079 --> 01:00:44.239
And so you took Baxter without question.
01:00:44.559 --> 01:00:47.280
And I can't thank you, Nottum, 100% more.
01:00:47.679 --> 01:00:54.880
And I remember the day that I moved here almost 11 years ago, you showed up in the morning to help me carry boxes.
01:00:55.119 --> 01:00:56.559
I've never forgotten that.
01:00:56.719 --> 01:01:00.159
And I mean you brought me into the log cabin group.
01:01:00.320 --> 01:01:02.960
Uh, there's just so many things.
01:01:03.039 --> 01:01:08.719
And you had a lot of suggestions for me to get involved in the recovery community when I first moved here, the Dharma group.
01:01:09.440 --> 01:01:12.239
Um, I learned about 202 from you.
01:01:12.639 --> 01:01:18.320
Uh there's so many things that I'm thankful for that you don't know that I'm thankful for, I'm sure.
01:01:18.639 --> 01:01:19.280
I appreciate that.
01:01:19.519 --> 01:01:20.000
You're welcome.
01:01:20.159 --> 01:01:20.639
Yeah, absolutely.
01:01:21.119 --> 01:01:25.519
I just love you so much, and everything you've shared is just rock solid.
01:01:25.840 --> 01:01:31.920
Um you could also get at Matt if you're looking to get into some property or sell your house.
01:01:32.000 --> 01:01:33.199
Uh, what's your at?
01:01:33.920 --> 01:01:38.000
Uh we are at uh season in stone real estate specialists.
01:01:38.079 --> 01:01:44.000
Uh we are under the Berkshire Hathaway uh brokerage, and uh we spell we all over Middle Tennessee.
01:01:44.400 --> 01:01:44.800
Great.
01:01:44.960 --> 01:01:50.000
Absolutely now get at get at Matthew Dwyer and he spells it weirdly with no double T.
01:01:50.239 --> 01:01:51.039
That's right, just one T.
01:01:51.119 --> 01:01:51.280
Thanks.
01:01:51.760 --> 01:01:52.880
Suss him out.
01:01:53.679 --> 01:02:02.960
Uh and then if you like this podcast, Breaking Down Addiction, and want to see more episodes, please like and subscribe and do all the things on socials.
01:02:03.119 --> 01:02:05.039
Leave us a five star review if you can.
01:02:05.119 --> 01:02:06.559
Um, everything helps.
01:02:06.719 --> 01:02:09.360
And look out for your brother and sister out there.
01:02:09.599 --> 01:02:12.079
And thank you so much for your friendship and everything, Matt.
01:02:12.239 --> 01:02:12.639
I appreciate it.
01:02:12.800 --> 01:02:13.039
Love you.
01:02:13.199 --> 01:02:14.159
Love you too.
