David Hanham CEO, QLD Ruby Union (Reds)

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Speaker 1: Appoja Production.
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Speaker 2: Welcome to another episode of Brave Always the CEO series. This series, we launch into the new world of brave leadership.
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Speaker 3: Happy people create happy businesses.
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Speaker 2: True emotionally intelligent leadership. I picked up vomit once on our about our fourth flight and everybody thought, well, if it's good enough for him, I can do it Now.
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Speaker 1: We will be joined by culture and leadership.
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Speaker 2: Experts and some superstar CEOs who will courageously tell us the truth behind their brave leadership journeys. Today I'm joined by David Hannam, who is the Chief Executive Officer of.
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Speaker 1: The Queensland Rugby Union Queens and Reds.
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Speaker 2: He's been with the organization for more than twenty years, beginning in game development in two thousand and two and rising through roles as General Manager, COO and Deputy CEO before coming CEO in twenty eighteen. He steered the QRU through major challenges including COVID, the Ballymore transformation, and preparing queens and Rugby for a golden decade of World Cups and the Brisban Olympic. So there's no secret, David, that I love having brave conversations with people in sport.
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Speaker 1: So I'm very thrilled to have you here today. So welcome.
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Speaker 3: It's great to be here now.
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Speaker 4: I love what you're doing and I love the concept of talking to people about their journey and what they've achieved in life and also the challenges that come with it.
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Speaker 2: Yeah, and do you know what the reason I invited you on here is because obviously I went to Ballymore. Yes, is pretty cool for a day sort of leadership event, and.
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Speaker 1: You got up and.
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Speaker 2: Spoke and I hear a lot of people speak, and it was instantaneous for me.
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Speaker 1: I was like, I need to speak to this guy.
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Speaker 3: You know.
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Speaker 4: I love people coming to Ballymore and experiencing who we are.
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Speaker 2: For someone who lives in Brisbane, I didn't even know where that stadium was. Yeah, how is that tucked in the suburbs at the back?
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Speaker 4: I know it's been there for fifty odd years. And the beautiful press it is.
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Speaker 1: It had a great feeling to.
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Speaker 3: It, beautiful pricing.
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Speaker 4: I love when people come and see what it is today because the journey of what it was didn't look like yeah two or three years ago, So it represents a lot of what we've done, where we are and where we get to.
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Speaker 2: So there's something about stadiums that have been around a long time, like there's just a thing about them, like the feeling like you close your eyes you can imagine crowds of people in different eras, wearing different clothing.
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Speaker 4: And it's a beautiful venue in the sense that it's got the hill and the green space. Yes, but Ballymore, I won't go into it because it'll be a first certainly, are right. Everyone talks to me about Ballymore the experience, not the games. They talk about meeting their girlfriends friends.
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Speaker 2: Okay, we'll touch more on Ballymore soon, but I wanted to start off with the fact that we mentioned it before we started, that your dad's from New Zealand. Yes, obviously I'm a Kiwi. I can't hide it, and I wouldn't want to. But I remember growing up in New Zealand and rugby was everyone played rugby.
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Speaker 1: It was kind of a given.
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Speaker 2: So I know you went from New Zealand, but with your dad coming here, was that kind of the standard too.
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Speaker 4: Yeah. Oh, look for me three older brothers, so I'm the youngest of four. Dad lived in New Zealand until he was twenty twenty one, came across he he was a chippy, met mum and started his own commercial fit out business. And I was the youngest of four, so my brother's all played, and so I was a little kid that was sitting on the sidelines waiting age one, two, three, four? Can I play? Can I play? Can I play? So I was destined Tory. There was not a choice. But it was great. Dad passed earlier this year, and you know, which was sad, but also a really nice moment because I got to share that sort of final breath with him when he was sitting there literally talking to him about what happens next in his life. And Dad was a very loyal man but also loved his rugby, but didn't often speak about those things. But I just thought it was a real gift that he was prepared to open up in his final moment with me, and we had a great chat about what life looks like beyond this world and yeah, and he really opened up, and I thought it was a special moment. And I remember one of my brothers saying, you know, it must have been difficult, and I said, actually, it was a gift, Like I got to spend that moment with him, and I think it gave the family a lot of comfort that in his final moments his son was sitting beside him. I remember when he passed. It was quite a spiritual moment for me. Is it literally like he had his last breath? And I remember just like I was looking at my phone. I wasn't talking that much at that stage, and I remember getting all these goosebumps run over me and I looked up and he passed. So it was a really special moment and one that, to be honest, I had a lot of challenges around death and what does it mean. And I think, you know, there was a piece with it and sort of a comfort in the transition of what happens now, and so it sort of gave me a lot of comfort that he's in a good space.
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Speaker 2: I mean, I didn't expect you to say that off the calf, if I'm honest. And the reason I'm a little bit quiet there is just because so my mum died when I was thirty five, and I was with her when she passed. I don't know about you, I remember her taking her last breath. It's almost like I watched kind of her leave, you know what I mean, Like I that real moment of life. This body's here, but she wasn't. And it took me a while, but I equally got to a place of just I had great conversations with her, and you had this real realization of what life you've got in front of you. And she was only twenty eight years older than I was, right, and so it was like what am I going to do with.
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Speaker 1: These twenty eight years?
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Speaker 2: And also I also don't have a fear of death because it's inevitable, it's coming.
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Speaker 1: So that just means you got to live more in the moment, Like.
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Speaker 2: There's such perspectives since she passed away, and I have often used the word it's been a gift, because I don't think I would approach life the same way.
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Speaker 1: It'd be interesting for you what that gives for you.
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Speaker 3: Same, exactly the same feeling. You know.
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Speaker 4: The word you used is gift, the same as me, you know, being part of that process. And what you said about your mum is that you could actually see the transition, you know, like there was People would talk about it or people would say that until you've actually lived it and seen it and experienced it actually Remember I was at sun Corpse Stadium that day and rung up my step mum and I said to her, look, I might not be able to make it. She said, oh, look, you know that's fine. Look coming tomorrow. And then I just had this moment.
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Speaker 3: I was like, nah, I'm going in you know, don't you. Yeah.
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Speaker 4: It was a special moment and one that will cherish. But to your point, I think it gives you a great appreciation of living, you know, and there's a transition, so you've got to then value the time you've got. And if that's a lesson that's come out of it, on top of just being part of a special moment, that's a good thing.
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Speaker 1: That's amazing. I love that. I mean I had a question around what did dad teach you?
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Speaker 2: But it sounds like Dad's taught your lesson, even the slate in life that alone weld He probably taught you when you were younger.
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Speaker 3: Oh yeah he did.
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Speaker 4: And to me back to sort of my value set, like Dad was always a very hard worker, worked hard for the family and did a great job, led his business really well, loved his kids, loved the sport, love rugby that was his fifth kid, Rugby. But the values of loyalty he was committed to supporting us as a family. But also I think integrity is doing what he said he was going to do. I think they're the two things that stick out to me. And just his general care for his kids. Just loved his kids, loved everything about him. Would always be there for us, was always present, like even at sport, you know, I know he loved rugby, but he was always present. I remember speaking to a lot of my mates in the last sort of ten years about their parents, and one of their great regrets is their parents were never really present at sport or when they did activities, and I thought, jeez, I didn't appreciate it until they mentioned to me. I thought, you know what, I didn't take it for granted, but now you highlight it.
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Speaker 3: It's so important.
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Speaker 4: Like god, you know, if you're not part of your kid's life and you're not there to support them and challenge them, what are you doing? So yeah, that was the things that dad sort of taught me. But I think sometimes when they pass you actually have time to reflect.
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Speaker 1: Yeah, yeah, yeah, I don't know how you.
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Speaker 3: Did it with your mum.
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Speaker 4: You sort of think back and goa jeez, you know what they did in their time was they had an impact.
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Speaker 2: I think that integrity with that financial thing because for a lot of people that integrity. What I've siply learned is being true to myself. I think that's the big one. Like, am I having integrity with myself?
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Speaker 3: Yes?
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Speaker 2: I said I'm going to do something? Do I do it even if no one else knows about it? That self and one that people don't do.
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Speaker 4: Yeah, you're spot on and I think that, Like, to me, these words have got to have meaning. And to me, a value is important. And you know when you've broken your own values as it hurts. And also just sitting down and defining what are your values? And you'll get there, but you've just got to stop and actually think about it.
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Speaker 3: You know.
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Speaker 4: That's self awareness what's important to you? Yeah, and then how do you impart that to your children? Is an important step.
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Speaker 2: Speaking of children, So it was rowing in school, right, there was some kind of situation and rowing we did well.
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Speaker 1: My son, I feel lacks a lot of resilience.
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Speaker 2: And so when I was reading about you, so, yeah, you had an event you were at you weren't doing too well, but then you came back to win.
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Speaker 1: It was it something like that?
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Speaker 4: Yeah, So in at school in nineteen ninety eight, we had the head of the river. So the way it works in rowing is you've got eight or nine races during the year. There's only one that matters, which is the head of the river. Now, you can win every other race, but that's the one that counts. And we'd finished third or fourth all year, sort of sitting around the middle of the pack. We got to the head of the river race and we were plodding along. We're about sort of four or five boats behind first, with about a kilometer to go, and the cocks at the time we had a race plan that about five hundred meters out we'd sprint and we'd go as hard as we can to win the race. And he looked at me and he said, but we've got to go now. It was about a kilometer to go because it's a two kilometer race, and so we did, and anyway, we got to the finish line and we won byero point three six of a second. And to your point around resilience, this is a really good lesson for me, and this is where parenting is so important. In grade ten, I wanted to quit, and this is where mum was outstanding. She said no you're not. I said, I don't enjoy it anymore. She said, no, you're going to keep going. And I look back on that moment now and even after the head of the river and think, you know what, like that's great parenting. And then obviously rugby is my main sport, but rowing, i'd encourage it because there's a commitment from the parent and the kid with rain. Got to get up early, you got to go to training, got to do a whole range of activities. You've got a full day on Saturday to go on race. But resilience, like it teaches you to push beyond limits you've known physically mentally. So that word resilience, I think for young kids there's sports or activities you can do that is absolutely one tell you once they do that, other things will start to improve.
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Speaker 2: I mean secretly hoping my son isn't into rowing because I don't want to get up for it.
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Speaker 1: That's right.
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Speaker 2: But I agree with you, Like I was wondering, like where'd you get that from?
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Speaker 1: But you're right.
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Speaker 2: With my own kids, they start stuff and then they said they're going to quit. My son started playing the euphonium right a few years ago.
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Speaker 3: I mean your phone.
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Speaker 2: It's the world's largest like horn, trumpet combined. It was just pretty cool. About two weeks and he was like, ah no, And I was like, you signed up for the year, yeah, to do it.
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Speaker 1: And I felt really.
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Speaker 2: Harsh of me, but I said to him, you make a commitment at the end of the year and this season, or you don't want to do it anymore. Yeah, fair enough, you've made a fair assessment, but you have to push through. So you're validating that. I thought I was being a tough mum, but that sounds like that really set you up for success.
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Speaker 3: Well did Yeah, And like you're right.
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Speaker 4: It's easy to sort of just accept oh, well you're tired, you don't want to do it, but sometimes you just got to. They're the lessons you've got to be taught.
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Speaker 2: So you were rowing, was it ever a professional rugby career on the Cats?
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Speaker 4: So I played like all the rep footy through school Queensland school Boys, Australia Under sixteen's and then got to colts and senior footy down at East. I went to church, he played rugby at East Rugby Club and then played a lot of red foot and then I just got to the point where I didn't lose the passion for rugby, but the playing part of it wasn't a priority. And I got a job actually at Each Rugby as a development officer, and development officer's role is really to promote the game young coaching young kids, boys and girls, et cetera. So yeah, I transitioned into that and that sort of became my pathway. But the step before that was when I left school, I started an electrician apprenticeship because Dad said, hey, would you like to join the business with the other boys. I did it for two years. I absolutely hated it. I got zapped three times, I fell through two ceilings. I was like, laugh, it was like the sign of the universe game, this is not for you. And I remember doing a job back at Churchy at the time, which was the school I went to, and I was sitting there and there is a fifty year old electrician just complaining about his job, going I hate my job, and I'm like, I don't want to. I didn't say it in my head. I was like, I don't want to like you. And that was a hard discussion to have with Dad because it was basically saying no, I don't want to be part of the business, and he said, well, what do you want to do, And I said, well, I love rugby, I love sport. And then what I learned then, which I didn't know at the time, but my whole philosophy is have got to be purpose driven. If I don't do something that drives my purpose I'm passionate about, doesn't fit. So hence why I stayed in sport and love what I do. And that might change down the track, but I will thrive through purpose.
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Speaker 2: Yeah, I'd heard you say that before, and I think that's what it is about sport, right, Like you love it. It's not like I like or it feeds you. It's everything right, And I think that's often what creates that drive in people.
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Speaker 3: And so it takes time to work that out. Year.
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Speaker 4: What you're doing here, it's purpose driven. You love it, you're passionate about it. It gives you energy, you get up in the morning, get excited to do it. You know, if you're doing that, you're not working. You're living your life.
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Speaker 1: I know, And I know a lot of people sort of say, oh, well.
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Speaker 2: That's all right for some people who find that, but I think it's a point of I'm now in my forties and like I left a corporate job and started this in my late thirties. My advice to my younger self would be find that purpose in your twenties. Find the things that you love, because you can make lots of mistakes in your twenties, right, and start again and start again.
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Speaker 1: But you know, at the time, I remember being.
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Speaker 2: In my early twenties thinking I've got to be you know, life had a timeline, like I've got to be at a certain point by now, I should be doing this, letting everything external kind of influence.
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Speaker 1: Whereas I'd say to any young person, find.
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Speaker 2: That purpose, then you'll end up in your thirties, forties, fifties doing.
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Speaker 4: Something you absolutely love, love exactly right. And people say it's the mindset. To me, which is what you've talked about, is if you keep telling yourself that you can't do something, if you keep telling yourself, I'll never find my purpose, then you'll get what you tell yourself. I do think that's an important piece about you know, how do you find these things? Well, it's about sitting down and actually looking at what is important to you. And I think a lot of people just keep going and then suddenly they wake up one day and go where am I, which normally is you know, sometimes twenties to thirties, you get to your forties and go is.
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Speaker 3: This really what I want to? Yeah?
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Speaker 2: Yeah, And I still don't think it's too late for anybody in the latest stage in life like change the direction. No, I hardly agree, but you're going to dig a little harder and sort of ignore the noise and all the pressures of where you're supposed to be at that part in your life.
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Speaker 1: So by making those choices earlier.
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Speaker 2: Okay, So when you're in that early early stages at ease, did I read somewhere that someone gave you some really harsh feedback maybe you went performing at your best?
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Speaker 4: Yes, tell me you've got that's good research for you. So I was at ACE and I was development officer, and I was in the job. I did it for three or four years. Anyway, it was probably about a year one and a half and I was just floating along doing my thing, but not really performing. And the general manager at the time, a guy called Adrian Thompson, pulled me aside and said, look, mate, you've got to get on with it. You're not performing and look if you don't do it, you're going to lose your job. And it was a great wake up cause, like it was like a punch in the face. I was like, that's a reality. And from that point forward, I was like, Okay, I've got a choice to make here. I can keep doing what I'm doing and get the same outcome, or I can change my philosophy and dig in and start to build what the role should have been. It was a great lesson. It was the first time and probably the last time, that I went, Okay, well I'm not going to let that happen again.
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Speaker 1: Yeah, right, So there's no part of you that was a bit like backing.
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Speaker 3: I was like, you know, that's sort of that stop.
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Speaker 4: If your first reaction could be defensive, yes, and at that age I probably would have been. But then you go away and reflect and go, you know what, it's probably right. That's what I kind of learned, and it's probably in the last six years it's really started to grow. Was that you talked about self awareness. Such a great skill is the right word, but it is like to understand who you are, what's important to you, to know when you're performing at your best, and to know when you're not, and to be able to own it, own it and accept the feedback and this and don't react to it, just sit with it, actually sit with it, sit with it and think about does that actually mean.
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Speaker 2: We instantly react to things just to better sit with it and be like, maybe I don't even accept it straight away, maybe it's going to take me a week to accept it, but maybe there's something in that that I.
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Speaker 3: It's that balance of ego, isn't it.
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Speaker 4: The ego is the one that jumps in and puts the shield up and says, na, well hold on, versus just going okay, let me just take the time to praicess what they've said. So that was a really important moment for me and I reflect on that and thanks to Adrian at the time being honest.
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Speaker 1: Are you like that as a leader?
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Speaker 3: Now?
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Speaker 4: Yeah, it's taken me time. And there's ways of delivering messages that are different for different people. Yeah, it's not their seventies and eighties with that tell people happen. Yeah, so you know, being honest. Coming back to your value set, integrity, do what I've said I'm going to do. I expect when we talk about things, we get alignment and people deliver. Yeah, courage is a big one for me, so and that's been a big theme for me. Is sort of embracing the challenge and having the courage to go to the edge is sort of my manager of this year across a number of aspects of my personal and professional life.
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Speaker 3: And I've added courages of value.
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Speaker 1: What does that mean to you?
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Speaker 4: As I said, like you know from a work perspective, you know, I might have being quite conservative in different ways of going Okay, well look maybe there's two pass here. You can take the risk. There might be a challenge with that, But could be how we've approached the season with the Reds, with bringing les on, evolution of who the next coach is going to be, making hard decisions when we were under enormous pressure under debt at QAU and we had to make some hard calls. Could be restructuring, just dealing with different challenges. But have the courage to meet the challenge. Don't just go away because it's difficult, and it could be a difficult conversation with something you know, and I've learned for me if I avoid those conversations, put space too much space in it, then eventually it'll build momentum and come back even bigger. But again self awareness, what are the conversations that I need to have and how should I have that conversation with you might be different to how I have that conversation with someone else. Yeah, so yeah, that's sort of what I've taken out of that value of courage.
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Speaker 1: Okay, so you go into coaching as well? Are you coaching as well?
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Speaker 3: Yeah? I did.
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Speaker 4: I also I went from being a development officer into coaching. I coached Adisee Rugby and then I was at a sort of crossroads. I was like, what do I do. Do I continue down a professional coaching path or do I go on to the front office administration. That was another sort of cross roads, but it was a choice. So I was like, okay, well, if I did coaching job, I would have had to go overseas. So I made the decision to go on the ad in side and I've loved it ever since. And I had been meaning commercial marketing operations and obviously then the CEO job I'm in now, and that what happened about seventeen years ago.
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Speaker 2: Because if you think about a great leader, great leader is a great coach, yes, right, So what was it in the stuff that you did as coaching that you use now today?
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Speaker 4: Look, I reckon the biggest thing. It's funny people say do you miss coaching? I say, well, I'm doing it into coaching. I'm doing it in my job. What I loved if I go back to when the earlier days when I started coaching, I loved and I still to this day, and is I love seeing the growth in people individually. But then also then how do you put that together collectively as part of a team and get everyone moving in the one direction. So, and what I missed about when I was on field coaching was the connections, the friendships, the engagement that you have with people, and yeah, just that extra bit of support that you can provide people being so to say, how can I help you achieve what you want to achieve? And understanding everyone's motivated in different ways with some commonalities as well. So that was probably what I took out of coaching. It's about getting the best, getting the best out of people.
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Speaker 1: That's great. So was it always your path to get to CEO? Was it kind of your goal?
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Speaker 3: Not?
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Speaker 4: When I started off, To be honest, every three or four years something came up in Queens and Rugby to do another job. Yeah, I don't know, it just organically, it just naturally evolved. I was like, I always wanted to do well on my role, So whatever that role was, I wanted to perform leave it in a better place than I found it. And then I just got to work with good people, good leaders around me, and it just came and they probably got to the point where I was in sort of the deputy role or chief operating officer role, where I started to see, Okay, that's a role I think that i'd like to do. I love the ambition for people that want to become a CEO or want to do that, that's great, but you've also got to understand, like there's a level of patience. Sometimes you've got a billagy of skill set and knowledge base before you can take those opportunities on. And when I got the opportunity, it was COVID, so it was like and I had prior knowledge, but I got in there and I was like, wow, this is a real challenge. And it was a really good moment because we simplified everything. We had three goals that we wanted to focus the business on. But I tell you, there was some bit of fear and being quite scared at the one point, like we're sitting there COVID. It hit all of us and I was like, are we going to get through this? And keeping in mind we had a fair bit of debt and we were struggling before that anyway.
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Speaker 1: So you just became CEO around about the time kind of started.
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Speaker 4: Yeah, And my worry was for the staff going they're all sitting at home going what's happening? And so that what I learned is the power of communication, but little and short passes with communication, just regularly updating, not leaving too much space that people would go, what's happening and we're lose my job. They start to have negative thoughts and that impacts their life, their families life. So we had to make some hard decisions then and again that's coming back to the courage to go to the edge on the decision. And you know we're every month, you're finding a way to pay the staff. How do I get through the next four weeks? And that was probably two years of real challenge and you're not on your own when you're doing it.
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Speaker 1: But did you really doubt yourself during that period?
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Speaker 3: Right at the beginning, I was scared, can we do this?
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Speaker 4: But you know, like we're talking before, what you tell yourself your thoughts become your beliefs, that become your behaviors and turn out to be your life. You're not on your own, and so that was the big thing for me. There's one point right at the beginning where I felt quite isolated. No one did that. That's me telling myself on my own versus where I'm probably operating at my best is when to break down the Rubik's cube and go, how do I reconstruct this back to get the business to a point where.
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Speaker 3: We can come out of it better.
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Speaker 4: It was just shifting my mindset to go, rather than our COVID is going to destroy us, So what's the opportunity in this? As soon as my mind flipped to that space, the creativity opened up. What came out of COVID. We paid off our debt extremely quickly. We redeveloped Ballymore. We've got funding to build the National Training cent of thirty million dollars from the government. We've delivered seven operating profits out of that. We went from fourteenth on the ladder. We got brad Thorne and we got to eighth. We're now at fifth under less Kiss. We recruited great people, we were able to get great sponsors. We came out of it better. But right at the beginning, I'm telling you, yes, I was scared. I was worried, and there was doubt. But as soon as I flipped my mindset to Okay, you can sit in that space and you can get what you're going to get, which is poor performance, we can flip your mind to what's the opportunity.
00:21:23
Speaker 1: Because I mean, that was high stakes for you. At the end of the day.
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Speaker 2: It was your first CEO gig, and you're like, if this doesn't go well, what does this mean for sort of things going forward? But so what I'm hearing for you is a really strong self belief. You obviously backed yourself and it was like I can do this. But I'm also hearing that you realize you're not a one man band, so you bought people on the journey with you.
00:21:40
Speaker 3: That's right.
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Speaker 2: So what did you learn about vulnerability during that time? That was actually the thing that I picked up about you. I was like, here is this man in a CEO position sitting there talking really vulnerably about the struggles that happened during that period. It's not as common as you think. Were you kind of like that back then? Or is that something you like?
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Speaker 4: And I reckon, to be honest, the openness and vulnerability and sincerity and all those elements is probably been in the last two or three years. I reckon My first three years had key components of bringing those things together, but I was very much probably trying to control too much of the outcome. There was a shield of like, well, if I show too much, then that's going to show weakness. And I didn't realize till the other flip side of it, the strength in vulnerability and the ability to open yourself up because if you do that, not only will you get the support, but also it'll bring opportunity to the table.
00:22:27
Speaker 1: It's a superpower. Is most people are scared of it, but I was scared of.
00:22:31
Speaker 4: It because when you grow up eighties, nineties and before that, it was like suck it up, just don't talk about it. Being fascinated by when you show vulnerability and emotion, it matters.
00:22:41
Speaker 2: It was a hack for connection because you build connection ten times faster, because you buildrust clicker when you're vulnerable. So correct and the thing is everybody has the same fears and security. So if you're willing to be the one to talk about it, yes, you're instantly going to build that connection.
00:22:54
Speaker 1: And that trust with somebody.
00:22:55
Speaker 3: That's so true.
00:22:55
Speaker 4: Yeah, and people love to see it, right, But it's how do you get people to open up to it, to go from the shield which is blocking the vulnerability to going Actually it's.
00:23:04
Speaker 1: Okay, well modeling it right.
00:23:05
Speaker 2: So I think that's the gift that you're giving for the next generation that comes through. So you mentioned Brad Thorn, former rugby union and league player.
00:23:12
Speaker 1: He came on as a coach, Yes, head coach.
00:23:15
Speaker 2: A little controversial in the sense if I think he made some decisions to shift towards a more youthful team.
00:23:19
Speaker 1: Is that correct?
00:23:19
Speaker 3: Now, obviously we know Brad's career as a player. Yeah, he's one of.
00:23:22
Speaker 4: The probably the greatest contact athlete that's been able to transverse between rugby union and rugby league.
00:23:27
Speaker 3: He's run World Cups.
00:23:28
Speaker 4: Yeah, he's won Super Rugby, he's won Northern Hemisphere Rugby in the Premiership, he's won State of Origin, he's played for the Kangaroos, pretty much won every trophy your Keadan rugby, so you talk about culture and standards and leading with your behaviors. Brad was excellent. So when he came in, he actually coached our academy for two or three years. So you have the young kids that are sort of aspirational to make the Reds and then there's a few changes in the coaching ranks. Brad got given the job. Now, it was a big step for the qu to make that because Brad had only been really out of playing for two or three years coaching, so to take on the Red's role without you know less, Kiss has been coaching for twenty seven years professionally. But the one thing we knew with Brad was his standards on culture were second to none. And he's been a part of the best programs in the world all Blacks Snawley, so he knew what it took to be at that level and what he saw was a really strong young group that he could mold into being a team that would have the right set of values and play for each other. But he also knew there was a culture at that time that wasn't great for some of the senior players. There are all those senior players are good people that have gone on to great things post the decision that Brad had made, but he reset that and his view was, if I've got all these young kids coming through and the culture by the senior players isn't strong, then they're just going to follow the leader. He reset that, made some decisions for those players to depart and then put a young group through that are now wash the Wallabies, phrasermik Right, Harry Wilson, Liam Right, take McDermott.
00:24:53
Speaker 2: But as a CEO, who you put in that role is one of the most high state decisions you'll make, right, It's the most important correct. So how do you navigate that? How do you know you've made the right call?
00:25:03
Speaker 4: Well, ultimately you know people so that the ladder at the end of the season will be the telling. But I think what our vision and direction for Brad was we needed to culturally change.
00:25:12
Speaker 1: So it's about winning.
00:25:13
Speaker 4: It wasn't just about winning. Will come from it and as a results, like earning money, if you love what you do, when you do a good job, money comes as of it. So we knew that would be the case. So that was the focus for us. And we were fourteenth before Brad started, and Brad got us to eighth on the ladder. We won a domestic title in twenty twenty one. Because of COVID we couldn't travel to New Zealand, so we could only play the Australian team. It's got forty two thousand at sun Court, so you know, a great achievement. But we could see a shift in performance. But also we could see that was driven by culture.
00:25:40
Speaker 2: What were the things you saw that showed to you that culture was changing.
00:25:44
Speaker 4: Just standards in how the players behaved and how the players kept themselves within the training environment and the playing environment, how they spoke to people, their work ethic at training, so doing the extras. It was always a good sign of people that are prepared to go beyond what was required by the coaches. I started to see their behavior amongst the staff improve, the connect was a lot better, and then ultimately their performance, which is the last part of it, how they performed on the field where they winning more games.
00:26:13
Speaker 3: It was a big shift. But you know, we're coming from a low base.
00:26:15
Speaker 2: So when it's all done and dusted, what are you going to be most proud of when it comes to what you've achieved at Queensland.
00:26:21
Speaker 4: The easy thing would be to focus on the business and talk about that. I'd say the thing that I'd be most proud of is the growth, particularly in the last three or four years, of the people within the organization and the culture and how we're working together, the alignment towards the vision of where we want to be, Like we've set ourselves the goal and we want to be one of the best rugby provinces in the world. Absolutely, and it's a big audacious goal and there'll be people that will throw criticism at it and say, well, how are you going to be bigger than a French club or how are you going to be better than the Crusaders. But if we don't shoot for that, where are we aiming? I think it's the ability to get people to align to that. I'd be most proud of that. Yes, on field success, off field success redevelop a ballymore yep. But if we've got an aligned staff and game here going in Queensland, we can do that and they believe it, because there's a difference between saying it and believing it. If I look at the Wallabies as an indicator of believing they can now win, they now believe it. They go over and they beat the spring Box. Sixty years, we haven't done that. They've beaten Argentina on the death. Next challenge will be the All Bucks. That's always the Liss test. But you know that you can see it and speaking to Harry Wilson about it, and he said, mate, we no longer look at the opposition with hero worshiping.
00:27:30
Speaker 3: Oh we're playing the all Blacks.
00:27:31
Speaker 1: Shit.
00:27:32
Speaker 4: No, no, we're better than them. It's not arrogance, it's just a confidence and belief.
00:27:35
Speaker 1: Yeah, yeah, softly.
00:27:36
Speaker 4: So that's same thing. I'd love to see that. The legacy would be that there's a belief in the vision, there's alignment to it, and we go over on it. I won't be there ten, fifteen, twenty years and we are the best rugby problems and we come back and talk about it and say, remember we had that chat.
00:27:47
Speaker 3: That's what I'd love to see.
00:27:48
Speaker 2: So when I talk about authenticity in my program, I talk about the opportunity for connection exceeds the fear of rejection. So in a room, obviously in your role, you'll be talking to the media and you'll have to have some difficult conversations. Are there moments where there's things you want to say that you can't and youn't.
00:28:05
Speaker 4: Yeah, it's interesting, like, particularly with the media, Like there's situations where you might want to talk about a particular topic in a particular way that might not align to where the media want to take you. People can read you if you're out just talking corporate speak. Yeah, it doesn't come across authentic, They'll see through it. I think you've just got to get the balance right of getting the right messages out there around what the issue is. But also sometimes you're protecting someone's person, so you've got to be careful.
00:28:33
Speaker 1: But you don't feel it challenges your authenticity.
00:28:36
Speaker 4: No, it doesn't. Unless you're lying, then you can trouble. But like we've had a few player issues that we've had to front the media on and our strategy has always been b first, get out there, be the one that's telling them about it, not they're calling you up saying we want to do an interview or front of you at the office saying what's happening here.
00:28:54
Speaker 2: And likewise, if you don't, if you can't say it, say you can't say it.
00:28:57
Speaker 3: Yeah I can't. I'm not going to talk about it.
00:28:58
Speaker 4: Yeah, but that's the authenticity when and if I said it, I know we're not going to talk about that issue that's off the table half baked with it, then that's when the opportunity comes. So sensationalism creates interest and content is king true and sometimes any story is a good story, even though it might hurt your brand. I'm not saying you throw that out there all the time, but to keep people interested in the code where they're fun. The more stories we can tell not about just who scored a try it, but who you are and what's behind the person, which is what you're doing here, that's the most engaging content for us.
00:29:32
Speaker 2: So was there a time then where you were really authentic or vulnerable and you got rejected from it?
00:29:38
Speaker 1: Even maybe during that COVID period where you had.
00:29:40
Speaker 2: To Yeah, because you don't always get a great reception right in that's the area.
00:29:43
Speaker 4: There's times where you want to do something, and say with a board or with your membership where a decision could be you're out there promoting who the next coach is get and when you make these decisions, as you say you just said before, they're probably the most important decision you've got to make. Who's going to leave the football program, and when you go out and you announce that, you're going to get a mixed so that there's a vulnerability. Look, sometimes the announcement might not be supported by fifty percent of the people that are part of your membership, but you've got to back yourself. So there's a vulnerability going, well, look, it's all on. And what I dislike a little bit in sport is when CEOs appoint coaches but the coach doesn't perform, but then the CEO hides behind the coach, And I think that's a really important piece that you're making a commitment, you're part of that decision, and you're a part of a team. In any sporting organization, it'd be no different. Maybe when you worked at Virgin, the chair of the CEO, the coach, and the captain have to be aligned. And so I think the vulnerability when you're going out there and saying this is who it's going to be and you get that feedback that some people don't like it. You might get a little seed of doubt game or was it the right decision? Was a good thing? And then ultimately you just got to back yourself. And there's been times where it hasn't been supported and that's a challenge.
00:30:51
Speaker 2: Well, I think there's a big part of it accepting what's out of your control to a degree. I mean, you can hire someone who's great, but you can't control the way they operate.
00:30:57
Speaker 1: Correct, So how are you with control?
00:30:59
Speaker 4: Yeah, I've had iken two phases of it, I reckon. My first phase was control got me the outcome. I may have got the outcome, but I've got no growth from the people that were part of that. They might have got a little bit of growth, but not to the extent of What I've learned in the last two or three years is giving people space, been clear on the parameters that we want to work with, but allowing them to take that space and grow and lead, and knowing that you're never going to nail one hundred percent of it, but be okay with that, don't jump down their throats when things don't go to plan, sit down and actually be curious and ask questions. And the control part of me at the beginning was I don't need to get it from point A to point B, and the best way to get there is if I control all But then we're going to get there, And that to me is an important part. So you know that was probably the last two or three years really is about understanding that that is leadership.
00:31:51
Speaker 1: I love your honesty in that it might have only been in the last two three years. Yep, it's for a lot of people. They wouldn't always ad met that.
00:31:56
Speaker 2: But you know so I think that's great because I think it's always a journey.
00:31:58
Speaker 4: Yeah, it is, And I think the key part for me was particularly what you saw with when you came out to Ballymore with the executive coaching, and I feel like organizations, I mean, I'm interested in your thoughts on it, but coming from the people and culture background, the lack of investment into people I never got and this is not a reflection of the organization that I work for. But when I got the CEO job, it was there, you go, go for it and welcome to COVID. I've got a great amount of learning through those experiences. Things I didn't do well, things I did, and that's helped me to where I am today. But jeez, I would have loved to have got that level of coaching. The tool belt I now have vulnerability, understanding strengths in people, being able to build stronger connections, giving them space for growth. All the things that are there that you know you can read in a textbook, but real life experience helps grow that.
00:32:47
Speaker 3: I wish I had that at.
00:32:48
Speaker 2: The beginning and speaking my language here because I'm the same.
00:32:51
Speaker 1: I never got anything and.
00:32:52
Speaker 3: You worked in the area of people in Coltgre.
00:32:54
Speaker 2: I never went to a single leadership course when I was out there. But aside from that formalized training, I can tell that you've done work. I mean, I know you know mc toddle is your coach or yeah, explore and you know good coaching blurs the line on business and professional because it's all one and the same, and the topics that I talk about and brave some people find it difficult to say that that is obters, that's do with my job, and that's what you're to let go of, right because understanding yourself vulnerability, you know, being able to speak from that messy middle, owning who you are, and being brave enough to step into the things, knowing what you're afraid of, knowing what your limiting beliefs are. All this stuff shapes your ability to then tackle those work situations. The people don't see them as the same and I think that's why I'm so focused on EQ training now over anything else, because you get all that and you understand that you can navigate it yourself. The path will kind of show you who you are because you've got all the tools and a toolkit.
00:33:46
Speaker 4: It's refreshing to hear that everything you've said is spot on. And you know, if I look at what we've done in that period of time, and we're going to expand it out to all the stuff, and it's going to be a really big piece, and I think it'll be people say what's the missing ingredient? And I can tell we're going to give this coach to do this now. It's all of that stuff. But the things now that point on understanding ranks on people, like what are your rituals need to put in place to keep it a level of high performance? And what are your values set and what do they mean to you? And sitting down and defining that and then establishing your goals your actions that you're going to deliver. And I agree with your point. It's about life because putting all your effort into work and nothing at home, well that'll end up MESSI and vice versa. So it's just life, and it's one big pie of how do you then work with that? What are the pillars that are important to you? So it could be family, at work, partner, it could be anything. What are the important pillars in your life? But yeah, the strength part for me was really fascinating to look at someone and to enter into a conversation on your strengths and defining what your strengths are, so putting some science behind it. Each strength has a balcony and a basement. The balcony is when you're operating with your strength at a high performance level. In the basements when you're not. So for us as an executive team, there's a strength called under the gallops strength called relator, and so a relator is a per and that builds strong connections through one on one engagement. That's one of my strengths. When you're operating at your best, you're spending time with people not just within your executive team, but across the wider group and socially. The basement is when you get used to it click and you don't want to extend beyond the people that you're comfortable with. So for us, then the lesson was okay, well, rather than it just be a one on one with the CEO, with my four executive leads. You guys need to be doing that across your areas and so you're catching up with each other on a weekly basis, and we decided that weekly was important cadence for us. That came out of understanding the strength and now I look at all of our staff, you're going to go, well, that's actually that sits as a strength though where before didn't know that. We knew that we liked to connect, but we didn't realize that one on one connections is what builds our bond. So if we do that individually with each other, then the team will rise up. I often find so it could be physically, mentally, or emotionally or spiritually. What are the things that are broughtant to you every week to keep yourself at a high performance level. So for me, you know physical side of its swimming and Jim that keeps me a certain level. I find the breath work to be an excellent piece for me because it probably releases a lot of stress kind of an emotional connection so for me to get back to my vulnerabilities to know what's really going on, the breath work actually opens up a space for me to get into that area, because it could be something else that's bothering me that I don't really know, but it's impacting my work until I stop and breathe. And there's a really good guy I met, Richie Bostock. He's called the breath Guy, who's got an app called Flourish five minutes up to thirty minute sessions. But I didn't realize the power of breath work until actually I did it. And like when I got introduced to it, the first thing was, well, I.
00:36:47
Speaker 3: Breathe every day, what are you talking about.
00:36:49
Speaker 4: Yeah, but it's amazing that once you can get control of your breath, the things you can tap into, and sometimes those things are quite confronting, you know, in the sense of things that you might not have processed, that are sitting in your body somewhere. It's got to go somewhere that you can bring to life. And again it's like a muscle. You keep doing it, you can tap in quicker and better and it's fascinating. So talk about last six years. They're the things that have opened me up. Yeah.
00:37:13
Speaker 3: Before that, I was very closed off and shielded and thought everything else.
00:37:17
Speaker 1: This is great for people to listen to.
00:37:18
Speaker 2: In fact, I'm going to ask you something that I didn't always ask. Everybody spins and where you're at. But when something comes along in your life that you feel uncomfortable, right, those feelings come up where you're like, I don't want to do that. I've learned over the years to see that as a green light for growth. Right, the opportunity is going to lie up. That's the thing I don't want to do.
00:37:33
Speaker 1: Probably have to do it. What still makes you uncomfortable?
00:37:37
Speaker 4: Got two young girls that are always challenging me. They're beautiful young girls and how to create. Like what I've learned through this coaching, this is life. This is a good example you said, it's all one. The skills that I've learned through coaching has enabled me to have conversations with my children that are now setting them up for success. I just encourage anyone if you can spend the time to do that, either emotional intelligence, EQUE coaching and getting into that space. I tell you there'll be so many other areas it'll benefit outside of your day job. That for me has been a really eye opening area for growth. One of my values is growth. The reason it is in there because not because I'm going to say every day I'm growing. If I need to put people around me that push me, I can be comfortable. But that doesn't that's not the best version of me. The best version of me is constantly growing. So that's where I found the coaching has pushed me into space, is that I might have known as there, but someone's just give me a little bit of a nudge or opened my eyes to what that may look like. I had what Warren Buffer or one of them saying, the most important decisions you can make in life of who your partner is and are they a partner that's going to push me for growth and give me open my mind to areas that I need to be looked at. It's hard sometimes, like growth, it's not always nice.
00:38:51
Speaker 1: No, that's what I'm saying.
00:38:52
Speaker 2: A lot of time, it's the thing that makes you feel uncomfortable, and your brain is wired to avoid things that feel challenging and change, and you have to override that and push into it. So for me, it's a bit of a meth that you can suddenly just be comfortable with anything.
00:39:05
Speaker 1: I still feel all the yuck feelings.
00:39:07
Speaker 2: Yes, I just see it differently, like I have to do that anyway because I can see what on the other side do you say?
00:39:11
Speaker 4: Look, if you look at your growth, my growth has normally come through challenging situations. It's pushed me into an uncomfortable space. Yes, it hasn't come through the easy road for sure.
00:39:21
Speaker 2: I mean adversity is a huge part of that. Even in small moments. There's small moments where you get a phone call that invites you to do something that you go I did not want to do that.
00:39:30
Speaker 4: Now.
00:39:30
Speaker 2: Sometimes it might be because you're choosing self care and I need to take time out. So for me, I hated networking events. So whenever I get a phone call to come to stuff, particularly running around company.
00:39:40
Speaker 1: I don't really want to do it.
00:39:41
Speaker 2: I get that achiness and I'd make an excuse in my head and justify it. It's recognizing that things can still feel uncomfortable, but that doesn't mean it's a nore and leaning into it and the things that have come out of me leaning into opportunities i'd normally say no to. There's a lot of people that come on this podcast. You go to meet you know, you're all very seeing, you're very successful. Who go oh, I didn't feel I knew you were going to ask me stuff that it's not what I'm like, great at answering, sincerely good, I'm glad you came on. It's the whole point because you walk away in something and you just feels like it's expanded.
00:40:08
Speaker 4: Yes, one hundred percent. Like it's funny you say the event side of it. One of the things I've learned in the coaching is say, for extrovert sometimes people there's a strength called wo, which is people that love the connection and love to be in a room and get and get it.
00:40:20
Speaker 3: It's called wo WO.
00:40:22
Speaker 4: And mixed got. He gets energy from those big rooms. Yeah, I don't. Yeah, but I know that that's growth for me too, And there's a balance between doing it too much. So that comes back to my ritual. So then, if if I know I'm going to go to an event, sometimes it might be a need to go for a swim that morning, because they'll just wire me down and then get me into a space where I feel more comfortable. But I get quite drained.
00:40:45
Speaker 2: I'd say extravert intro it kind of half half yeah, I mean, gosh, give me a microphone.
00:40:50
Speaker 1: Yeah, I'll be out there doing.
00:40:51
Speaker 2: You know, I can be like that, but when I do talk on stage, I do do events, and I do afterwards feel a sense of real satisfaction from being real human beings.
00:41:00
Speaker 1: But boy, do I.
00:41:00
Speaker 2: Need to recharge, Like I can't just go from one to the next like this whole like after night after night.
00:41:06
Speaker 1: This doesn't work.
00:41:07
Speaker 4: That's right, And that's one of my rituals is named recharge. Just I know that I need to put recharge into my week, and sometimes that will shift depending on what's happening. It's just knowing that you've got to keep yourself in a certain space where you're not dropping off, like you're not burning out. I've been through burnout. Burnout came prior to early days of the CEO job, where there was this sort of almost mindset I can take it all on, yeah, which is again the shield was up. I didn't want to show vulnerability and then suddenly it just accumulates and then it just whacks you in the face and says, well, there you go. Yeah, And it was a challenge to go through that. And then you can make a choice, what did I learn from that or do I just ignore it and keep doing it? And that's back to self awareness.
00:41:45
Speaker 2: It's a good, really good point though, because a lot of people, particularly i'd say in the last five years, have been saying burnout's worse and it's ever been.
00:41:52
Speaker 1: Is it something you can manage?
00:41:53
Speaker 2: And I think if you can accept who you are and how you operate, be vulnerable, because if you're owning the fact that I'm really exhausted, then you'll do the right thing that you need to recharge, and then burnout won't come.
00:42:02
Speaker 1: Half of it's just denyal right, just trying to be everything to everybody.
00:42:05
Speaker 3: Ye, hundred percent. Okay.
00:42:07
Speaker 4: It's funny you say denial because one of the little lessons I spoke to the girls about, we did this exercise which was.
00:42:12
Speaker 3: Below the line and the above the line behavior.
00:42:15
Speaker 1: Have said, are they loving the fact that Dad's like yesterday?
00:42:20
Speaker 4: They do enjoy it, but then they actually now mirroring and back to me, Dad, that's below the line behavior blame.
00:42:25
Speaker 3: Excuse to know, got to be careful. I was like, Wow, that's great.
00:42:28
Speaker 2: So I read somewhere that you ask your staff what's the best version of me for you?
00:42:33
Speaker 1: What are the answers that surprised you?
00:42:35
Speaker 3: Like?
00:42:35
Speaker 1: What do people say.
00:42:36
Speaker 3: I mean the first step of that was the executive team.
00:42:39
Speaker 1: Yeah.
00:42:39
Speaker 4: I just think it's a great question. It's actually again you talk about vulnerability like you're actually opening yourself up for whatever's going to come back. And you'd hope that when you got the relationship strong, that it comes back with honesty. What's come back to me was one of the executives. When I come in to the meeting, I can feel sometimes that you want to solve the issue with me straight away. Sometimes I just need to let it, get it out. Just give me space to get it out.
00:43:00
Speaker 1: And are you a fixer?
00:43:03
Speaker 4: Yeah, because I am that and that control piece back here, I pull myself back and go okay, I can feel myself wanting to lean into it. Yeah, and I've just got to pull myself back, like let it be and then see what happens.
00:43:14
Speaker 3: And then if you need to come in, then come in.
00:43:16
Speaker 2: Sometimes being successful and getting to the title but you've done comes at a price. Do you think it's true that you can't have it all? Or what's been the cost of for you getting this where you've got to?
00:43:26
Speaker 4: It comes back to life. So what do your value and what success look like? And so your success defined by the title on your job. Is it defined by how much money you earn? Is it defined by the growth in your family. I think the first part is everyone's going to have a different definition of success. The sacrifices sometimes that get made is that people say work life balance, like, oh, what it needs to be. I don't think that's rubbish. At the end of the day, you will work towards your pillars and you will work towards what's important for you. For me, yeah, there's been sacrifices going through challenges with family, those things, but then you've just got to intentionally build that out in how you want to set yourself up for success. So for me now with my kids, I know that I'm going to I was away in Japan last week, but then I prioritize I want to be more present with them. And what I've learned is sacrifice is time away, but when I'm with them, if I'm not present, well that's crap. So that's been a big part for me. I think that I come back to the challenges like I look at that as probably my biggest challenges is that family connection. But now I've defined what success looks like for me in the family.
00:44:34
Speaker 3: I'm very clear.
00:44:35
Speaker 4: Yeah, with my mum, dad's past, I want to make sure that I'm connecting each week with Muma, could be a phone call. I've set a goal that twice a year, I want to go away with Mum and my children so they can spend time together. Where before I wouldn't even be able to give you an answer to that. So I've just defined what it looks like across the pillars work and personal and personally is partner, mum and the sort of wider family plus work.
00:45:00
Speaker 2: David, that is probably the best answer I've had on that question that I've ever Yeah, why because a lot of people will look at just generalize like I don't feel like I'm doing well there, or yes I had to sacrifice that, but they didn't get specific about what good looks like.
00:45:14
Speaker 1: And it's different for everybody.
00:45:16
Speaker 2: So if you've defined specific as I at least have one hour uninterrupted time with my girls each week, it's like, you know, really define it's not being three hours with them but on your phone the whole time. It's probably fifteen minutes was purely playing a game with them. If you can define specifically what it is, then you're just mentioning against that yardstick.
00:45:33
Speaker 3: And that's success to you.
00:45:35
Speaker 4: Yeah, and that's the balance of it rather than all be on work, just defining it and then you're clear what success is.
00:45:43
Speaker 2: Two last questions. One would be rugby was off the table. You could never play rugby for whatever reason. Okay, what else would you be doing?
00:45:50
Speaker 3: I think in the coaching space. But no, no, no, no, not coaching the others?
00:45:56
Speaker 1: Oh oh gotcha? Yeah, okay.
00:45:59
Speaker 4: I enjoy seeing growth and people, and there might be other elements in other business sectors that I could get involved in, but that the main part for me, what brings me purpose and joy is that I'm doing that now my job. Yes, but if that was my.
00:46:12
Speaker 2: Job, yeah, I think you've just given a little snippet to what happens post RUGBYA and I guess last of all, I would ask you, this is actually a question that was asked by a Harvard professor, why should anyone be choose to be.
00:46:24
Speaker 1: Led by you?
00:46:25
Speaker 4: I think my values is what sits for me that the four things that are important growth, so the ability that I will lean towards the opportunity to continue to grow, and I feel that hopefully that inspires people to come on the journey. I'm not afraid of the challenges, so I'll run towards the fire when it.
00:46:43
Speaker 3: Needs to be.
00:46:43
Speaker 4: And you know there's examples of that we've spoken about. So the courage piece is important and having the mindset in that to embrace the challenge rather than be scared by it. Integrity for me is important. You know what I say, i'll do, I'll do, and I'll support people in that. Overall, just remaining curious and wanting to continue to see the organization and people around me succeed comes back to values.
00:47:08
Speaker 3: That's really what it is for me.
00:47:09
Speaker 2: Love it. It's been an absolute pleasure talking to you. Thanks for coming on, David.
00:47:12
Speaker 3: Thanks cheers.