Jake Lewellen: Welcome back to the second edition of the Whiskey Lens. James Mackay of Artisan Cast to talk through these exceptional pours. So sit back and buckle into the latest episode. James, thank you so much for joining us and to Sarah, who is you know, kind of facilitated all of this for getting some of the rarest whiskey that I have ever seen in front of me. and really excited to learn more about what you all are doing and curating for consumers.
James Mackay: Absolute pleasure, glad to be here.
Jake Lewellen: Yeah. Well, first and foremost, it's always great to have our guests introduce themselves and a little bit about the brand that they represent. So James, I'll let you give a little intro on what Artisan Cask is and who James is.
James Mackay: Okay, well my name is James McKay and I'm the private client director for the Artisanal Spirits Company and it's really all about this new program called Artisan Castes which I call a private cast program. So it's really all about having your own bespoke single malt whiskey that you participate in creating and So it's utterly different from the kind of whiskey that you could buy in a store or in a bar. I guess if it was clothes, it would be like the difference between a haute couture custom made or bespoke suit and something off the rack. It's very, very different. And that's the theme that will crop up. And it's something I've been doing for more than 10 years now. starting with some of largest Scotch whisky companies in the world and now with a specialized company called Artisanal Spirits Company where I think they have the structure and also the car stock that really lets this approach shine through to the best.
Jake Lewellen: Yeah, and if you know anything about Scotch, these are some of the biggest brands that you all have procured in this latest lineup here. And I know enough about Scotch to be dangerous. I I'm I'm really, really excited about this. we've talked about a few questions that we'll ask. What's the rarest dram that you have been able to to try or procure?
James Mackay: That's a pretty easy question for me because last year I took part in this incredible event that happens once every 24 months. It's called the Distillers One of One and it's a charity auction to raise funds for charities across Scotland. So it's all about Scotch whisky and in it you get
Jake Lewellen: Mm.
James Mackay: Whiskies that are as rare as you could possibly get because each bottle is a one-of-one So that is absolutely the definition of rarity. You can't you can't get any rarer than that and I was lucky I Have a wonderful client and good friend and He had a cask his own cask, but he hadn't bottled it. So he said why don't we Take some whiskey out of my cask you put it in a really cool, unique bottle and that'll create a one of one because the rest of the whiskey, he kept aging in his cask. So it was a snapshot, a moment in time in the absolute smallest, rarest volume that is possible to make whiskey in, which is just one bottle. So we did that. It was a 52 year old grain whiskey and it auctioned for
Jake Lewellen: wow.
James Mackay: close to about 20,000 US dollars, which was awesome. That was quite likely a record for a growing whisky, although Sotheby's weren't able to verify it.
Jake Lewellen: Wow, that's that's a lot of
James Mackay: And I did get to try it, which was also pretty cool.
Jake Lewellen: That is definitely very interesting. We were able to have the Benromek 50 last year. that was a beautiful cask. It's never thought I would drink whiskey that was, you know, 20 plus years older than myself. but the the delicate way Scotch is created allows for ultra-aged spirit and
James Mackay: yeah.
Jake Lewellen: It it was exceptional, right? To try, you know, fifty year old scotch was was absolutely beautiful.
James Mackay: Yeah, there's no doubt about it. The age does add something both in terms of the mellow smoothness to the flavor, but also just thinking about that amount of time while you're drinking, it can't fail but to change the experience.
Jake Lewellen: Which which leads us to our first pour of the day, which will be a Mortlock nineteen ninety-one artisan cask number three zero four five nine zero coming at forty three point seven ABV. So can you walk us through a little bit about this Mortlock cast that's in front of us?
James Mackay: Sure, well this is from a fairly well known and amongst experts in the industry, very highly regarded distillery from Speyside called Mortlach. It's from Dufftown and it's very, very close by McAllen. Very different style. It has a famously
Jake Lewellen: Mm.
James Mackay: dark, meaty, almost umami spirit character to it, so much so that its nickname is the Beast of Dovetown. And I used to work with the company that owns the distillery, so I'm very, very familiar with it. And it's usually seen in a very dark, colored, sherryed style. But this one is different.
Jake Lewellen: Mm.
James Mackay: And so this is a theme that we're going to see from Artisan Cask. It's from Mortlac, it's got the quality, but it's atypical. It's very, very different from what you'd expect. And with whiskey, sometimes that's not what you want. What you want is what you know, it's consistency. And that's what most of the big brand owners
Jake Lewellen: Mm.
James Mackay: do because that's what makes money. Artisanal Spirits Company, true to their name, they're different. They want every cask to be different because they're clientele, they're looking for variety, they're not looking for consistency. And for my clients, for artisan casks, they take that a step further because they buy the whole cask, so it's a bespoke whiskey. And that's important for them.
Jake Lewellen: Mm.
James Mackay: because what they want is to be able to be the host or hostess with the most. And they want to leave a lasting impression on people that last forever. And people say, wow, I remember you, you're the person who served me this incredible whiskey and I've never seen it since then. And the answer is no, you won't because all mine. So you'll never see it in a store. So both in terms of the approach,
Jake Lewellen: Yeah.
James Mackay: the variety in individual character, but also just the way it's structured is why artisan casks cannot and will not ever be sold through retail. So this Mortlac is definitely a one-off, it's a unique. I don't think that they would ever be able to replicate this.
Jake Lewellen: Yeah. And and Yeah, it's it's very interesting and and I love the A B V at forty three point seven. Very approachable. Yeah.
James Mackay: Yeah, it's naturally, naturally mellowed out over the 34 years it's been in the cask. All our Cazanne casks, common with a lot of very high-end collectible scotch, is bottled at natural cast strength. That's how people like it, and then they can adjust water as they like. This one really doesn't need any water because...
Jake Lewellen: Mm-hmm.
James Mackay: after such a long time in the cask, it's naturally got down to the kind of strength that you would typically use for drinking, which is a lovely way to do it. We'll go on to talk a bit about what I call the artisanal way, how they look after these casks. It is very individual and usually they'll do whatever they can to improve that whiskey inside the cask. by maybe finding a better quality cask and moving the whiskey into it. But with this one, they figured nothing's broke, so we ain't gonna fix this thing. It's beautiful the way it is. So it's...
Jake Lewellen: Yeah. it is it is very lovely on the nose. it's l I think umami's the the best way to say it. There's like some salinity, there's some floral notes, there's the vanillins, you get a touch of that Pedro Hamina sherry that this touches for a very brief time in there. very approachable from a nose perspective. And this is a This is a scotch that if a bourbon drinker like myself were to get a hold of, it's not gonna it's not gonna scare him away. This isn't your LaFroig or any of those. This is a very nice and delicate approach to to whiskey. Very custardy on the nose
James Mackay: I would say it's a good aperitif. Yeah, it's not too rich.
Jake Lewellen: Yeah. So when a person purchases one of these casks, how do they they receive it? Do they receive it in a like a bottle format? How do they go back to it when they need replenishment? How does that work from a a purchase perspective?
James Mackay: The end result is bottles. But it's all about doing everything in a bespoke way and to suit the personal needs of the owner. So they will have the bottles, but they can choose where the bottles go and when. So instead of just... buying the bottles and having them delivered to your home. Typically, they're kept in a duty-free storage in Scotland. And then the owner will decide maybe I'll get two cases sent out to the US and maybe I'll get two cases sent out to Europe. I'll keep some in Scotland from when I visit. They've got that flexibility. And so the end result is the bottles, but also
Jake Lewellen: Mm. very nice.
James Mackay: One of the most popular features about the program is that to a certain extent, the owner has participated in making the whisky themselves. So as well as deciding where and when and how to have the bottles delivered, they also get to decide how old the whisky should be. And so they speak to the whisky maker. They taste samples and we let people take up to two sample bottles out of the cask every year while it's aging. So at the beginning, what they do is they buy the whiskey through a contract while it's still sitting in Scotland in our own warehouses. They can go and see the cask, but typically they'll take samples out. Maybe some people build a...
Jake Lewellen: Mm. Mm.
James Mackay: vertical library once a year, a couple of bottles, and then they decide when it's time to bottle. With this cask, it's really very, very venerable. It's got to the absolute peak. So this one, I would expect a buyer would bottle fairly soon. Some of the other ones we'll try. Potentially an owner could continue aging whiskey for many years.
Jake Lewellen: Yeah. Yep. Beautiful. whoever whoever buys this cask is going to be in for a treat for a long period of time.
James Mackay: It'll be, I think, not an exaggeration to say it'll be a part of them. I know this because in the last 10 years, I've dealt with many, people who I've gotten to know now. And at the beginning, they said to me, well, yeah, James, know, it's 150 odd bottles. That's a lot. I don't think I need that many. I know, I'll buy the cask and then I'll sell half the bottles and then I'll keep.
Jake Lewellen: Yeah, one hundred percent.
James Mackay: I'll keep the other half. Yeah, that's fairly, sounds fairly sensible. But after 10 years, I can promise you that not one of those people has sold all half of their bottles because they don't want to. It's like, then they're a part of me. I couldn't bear it, you know? And also they find that it's such a cool story to tell people and it leaves such a big impression on people when it's like, wow, this really is your whiskey that you made.
Jake Lewellen: Ha ha. Yeah.
James Mackay: It's such a great gift so that people find the value and the pleasure they get from it is many times higher than the cash they might get from reselling. it's a very personal thing.
Jake Lewellen: Well, and and it becomes a very personal gift when you do give it, right? Because it's it's part of your personal collection that you've you know you've created. this one is a very, very delicate whiskey on the palate. it is meaty, like you said. It does have a nice viscosity to it. I do find that with single malts in general, they do have typically good viscosity because the pot's still distillation. but it's it's fatty. It stays with you for a while. The back end sherry notes, but very sweet vanilla up top, very front. It's a it's a very, very well balanced pour start to finish.
James Mackay: It's got all the right features that you look for. So it is, as you say, in balance and it's got multiple layers as well. So it's not a whiskey that's like a one trick pony. It's got many, different facets. And I'm pretty sure if you leave a bit in your glass and you come back to it this evening, you'll get a completely different experience. know, have a whole new side to it.
Jake Lewellen: Mm-hmm. Yeah. Well, and that's what I was what I'm looking forward to because you know the next question is right, when you are drinking these rather delicate but also you know, I would say ultra exclusive, expensive cask, the right drinkware is vitally important, right? So as someone who is tasting people on these very rare casks and helping them curate this experience so that they potentially purchase something like that, what's your preferred glassware that you like to drink out of?
James Mackay: It's a good question. think that with something like this, it's always going to be special. So I don't usually try and go too far overboard in terms of telling people, you must do it this way. If you wanted it in a rocks glass with some ice, especially if you're sat in Paris at the moment and there's no air con, it's 42 degrees, I think that's fine.
Jake Lewellen: Yeah. Yeah.
James Mackay: But definitely with these whiskies, if you really want to get the complexity, then you need a glass that has the tulip shape to it. There's no doubt about it that shows it off to its best. yeah, mean, the classic Glencairn style glass, I think, does the trick.
Jake Lewellen: Yeah. Yeah.
James Mackay: When I'm doing dinner events, I'll often use ones with a stem. I think that just to add a certain bit of class to it as well.
Jake Lewellen: They do. I really have gotten into stemmed glassware and I also like that like my hands not heating it the whole time as well. I'm very much like a glass of wine. So I I enjoy scotch, especially because it's a little bit more delicate a lot of times. I enjoy scotch and a stone glassware. but I mean, obviously they created the Glencaron, so they know what they're doing. They know how to make make a whiskey glass. which leads us into our next pour, which is a Bunahabin, which is one of my favorite names to say in all of Scotch. it's just fun. and
James Mackay: Yeah.
Jake Lewellen: The releases I've had from Buddha Hobbin tend to be exceptional this one is my age. this one is from 1989. and this comes in at 43. And I took an I took a nose of this, and this is this is as much a bourbon drinker scotch as I've probably ever smelled.
James Mackay: Thanks. Mm-hmm. Yeah. Yeah, I think you're right. It's, This is definitely, I think, most... one of the most complicated... whiskeys in terms of the it's been made. They really, really pull out all the stops on this one. So going back to what I would call commercial whiskeys that are made to be very consistent and sold at retail, those will be made from casks just like these, but those casks will all be mixed together because that's the only way you can get that consistency.
Jake Lewellen: Okay. Mm.
James Mackay: And before all of those casts are mixed together, they just leave those casts sitting in the warehouse. And there's no point in doing much with those casts because they're all going to get put into the same vat eventually. With the Artisanal Spirits company, they look after casts knowing that they're all each going to be bottled individually. So it's a very, very different attitude and a different working process.
Jake Lewellen: Mm.
James Mackay: from time to time, they'll take the whiskey out of one cask and put it into another cask, which in the industry is called re-racking. And that's expensive to do. It's a lot of work. And so it's very unusual that people do that. But what you get is more and more complexity in the whiskey because the wood.
Jake Lewellen: Yeah. Yeah.
James Mackay: when you change it over. It's a little different from what people call finishing. Finishing is typically about three to six months in the new cask. These ones are more a new chapter in the development of the whisky, so we're talking years. So this one, that's right. And this one has been re-ranged not once, but twice, which is pretty cool. So it's had 28 years in...
Jake Lewellen: Mm. Yeah, secondary maturation or tertiary maturation. Okay.
James Mackay: Refill American oak bourbon, which is your classic cask that it's been used for bourbon in the US and then it goes across the Atlantic and then it's used for whiskey. This is refill meaning it's not that active. It's been used plenty of times and that's actually a good thing when you want it to age this far because it's very active.
Jake Lewellen: Mm. Yeah.
James Mackay: cast will get unbalanced rather quickly. So that's what you want. Then it did seven years in another refill cast, but it was a refill sherry cask. And even though it's a refill sherry cask, it must have been pretty active because the color is crazy dark. And that'll come from that second maturation in the sherry. And then the last year has been in back to Bourbon, but a much more active Bourbon cask. So in a way you could say it's 28 years has smoothed it off and given it that classy, really high age distinction. And then you've got the heavy impact of sherry over seven years and then a little bit of extra layer of Bourbon.
Jake Lewellen: Mm. Yeah.
James Mackay: vanilla on the last year. And like the first cask, this one is really at the peak of its maturation journey. So again, this one is one that you would likely bottle fairly soon. It wouldn't improve by aging any much further.
Jake Lewellen: Yeah. I No, I couldn't imagine this one going much further, especially in a more active bourbon barrel. we've got really into what we call maple brulee toasting here in America. So in a secondary maturation or a finishing cask, what they'll do is they'll rechar Maple like maple syrup will go get finished in a bourbon barrel and then they'll rechar the bourbon barrel with the maple syrup inside. So it creates like a crime burlet style experience. And but it it leans into like this kind of crime burlet maple syrup note that I get really on the nose here. It's kind of
James Mackay: yeah.
Jake Lewellen: the nice thing is like it doesn't like over sweeten the palate the palate actually is more dried stewed fruits which is really nice
James Mackay: It's quite drying. Yeah, it's not sweet. whereas the first, the mortlach was an aperitif tram, this is very much a digestif. This is an after dinner tram, for sure.
Jake Lewellen: Yeah. It is. I mean, you get you a a nice pudding, a figy pudding, and you know, have a have a dram of this, you'll be you'll be good to go. what does the consumer look like to you as you try to find someone to purchase this and be a part of this really kind of one of one experience?
James Mackay: Mm-hmm. Well, that's actually probably the single most enjoyable thing about my job is getting to know these people and some of them have become really great friends over the last 10 years. Obviously they're people who've been quite successful financially because if you're buying your own cask that is necessary but they're also very fun
Jake Lewellen: Mm.
James Mackay: sociable friendly people and they're people who like to celebrate their success and connect with other people through celebrating the good things in life, especially with good food, great whiskey, often they're into wine as well. Many of them have watch collections as well. And they want, when they get their friends or business associates together, They want everyone to remember the evening. They don't want it to just be, it was just another dinner. They want it to be super unique. So that's really what's driving them is to have something that's unique and memorable, but also very, very deeply personal, and then to be able to share that with as many people as they can.
Jake Lewellen: Yeah. Yeah. No, I mean, this is this takes single barrels, what we do in America quite often, and like puts it on steroids. and these pores are are phenomenal and like I could see you know, high net worth individuals, you know, wanting to do that because they do like that show stopping experience. And they pair this with a nice dinner and you bring this out and you walk them through like, hey, this is what I did and how we paired it with, you know, the appetizers all the way to through through the final course and you can have it a variety of different ways, which leads me to the the next question that I have for you is, how is cocktail culture with Scotch whiskey, right? and what is your favorite kind of cocktail to make with with a scotch whiskey?
James Mackay: Mm-hmm. it's cocktails are not as deep a part of the culture in, in Scotland than, than in the U S. but everyone's very interested and very open. And, so it's, it's something you'll see in most of us in Scotland. and people are very proud, you know, of having. Scotch whiskey is part of the national culture. So often it will go in and typically what you'll find is people go for the classics but swapping out say the bourbon in a boulevardier for Scotch. And that usually works best because those are tried and true classics but they also allow the spirit.
Jake Lewellen: Mm.
James Mackay: to shine through. And you can quickly tell, especially if you use, let's say, smoky, peated Scotch whiskey, it transforms the classic cocktail, whether it's like a Boulevardier or an old-fashioned or something like that. I think another reason why it's not as prevalent as it maybe has been in the US is because for a while people thought Scotch is
Jake Lewellen: Yeah.
James Mackay: is too special to go in a cocktail. Fortunately that's been put to bed now. And if anything I'd say Scotch is better in some of these cocktails because the character of the whisky can cut through a lot of the other parts of the cocktail.
Jake Lewellen: Yeah. So that leads us to probably one of the most interesting from my nosing perspective, and I'm gonna let you say the name of it. we're moving to to Isla, I I believe here with this one. This is definitely a Peded expression. So this is a nineteen ninety. I can tell you that. It's it's it's almost as old as me. Sorry. Cat
James Mackay: This is. This is Cowell-Eler, two words,
Jake Lewellen: is this a PT from like the Isla area?
James Mackay: Yeah, this is a classic Peter's Islay whiskey. For a long time, it was used to create the smoky element of the Johnny Walker blend. And for that reason, it's not as famous as some of the other distilleries, single malt distilleries on Islay, but amongst whiskey aficionados, it's right up there with the greats. And it
Jake Lewellen: Okay.
James Mackay: typically has a combination of that smoke but also with a sort of floral, flowery, almost citrusy element to it. But again, in keeping with artisan casks, we try to make sure that nothing is plain vanilla or as you would find it in the shops. So this one has spent its whole life in a sherry. but not an active, overbearing sherry cask, which is why the colour is much paler than you'd expect for something that's spent so long in a sherry cask. So this sherry cask must have been reused a lot. This is probably towards the end of its life. And some casks, they have a lifespan of about 100 years. which is nice because that's kind of how long it takes for an oak tree to grow. So it all fits together. But this one is exactly what you want for such an old whiskey because it matures very, very gradually and gently. It doesn't just whack all the flavor in in the first few years. and because it's a sherry cask and...
Jake Lewellen: Mm.
James Mackay: in European oak, you're not going to get anything like what you'd expect from a bourbon cask. It's much more savoury style. So it's very different from what you'd expect from a kalila. The smoke is there. The smoke can only come from the distillery, but the very unusual
Jake Lewellen: Mm. Yeah.
James Mackay: style of wood and also the very, very long amount of time is creating probably the kind of kalila that you would be able to find anywhere. And that's what my clients are often saying is we'll always give them a range of different options to choose from. And the last step before they take the leap and buy the cask is always a tasting. And usually what they'll often say
Jake Lewellen: Yeah.
James Mackay: Well first of all I'll ask a question. Are there any other cast like this one? And we always say no, because that's how we select the casks based on being unique. So it's like, okay, good. then they'll go away and think about it. And then when they come back and they say, yeah, that was the one for me, they'll often say, it's because I did my research and then I figured out that it's impossible to find anything like this in the shops. So that's why I wanted it to be mine, because it's such an individual.
Jake Lewellen: Yeah. Yeah. the last great toe dipping that I have to do, honestly, is to get into more peated scotches. or if we were talking to our friends in Ireland, turfed, you know, just don't want to hate on my Irish friends here. it this is it's it's a bigger peat.
James Mackay: Mm-hmm. Yeah.
Jake Lewellen: But it's not it's an approachable peat on this, right? Because I think the sherry kind of rounds the peat out. and you do get that a little bit of sherry characteristic. just kinda like you get it in the back end of the nose, you get it through the back end of the palate, and so it's this really nice like red fruit note that you kind of get that kind of balances out like the the I would say the
James Mackay: Yeah.
Jake Lewellen: intensity of the smoke that that is in this whiskey.
James Mackay: Yeah, it's, in my opinion, that's largely due to the age. Young Khalilas, you're going to get a blast of smoke right at the front, which if you're not used to it, it's quite hard to handle. But once it's been in the cast for more than 30 years, at the beginning, especially with this one, you're wondering, have I got the right?
Jake Lewellen: Yeah.
James Mackay: right glass because I'm not sure if I can smell any smoke and then it goes down it's like nice flavor and then oh then the smoke sort of gently rolls across across your palate. So I think it's a great way to get into a of whiskey is by trying some of these extremely old ones, albeit an expensive way to get into it but yeah it's the most subtle way.
Jake Lewellen: Yeah. Yeah. It's the best way to approach it really, because you know, American whiskey drinkers still believe that all scotch is peated, right? and we've just showed you two other ones right before this that are a non-peted whiskey. And I've said this story many times throughout the years, but the first introduction to Scotch I ever had, someone gave me a Pete Monster. It was the worst thing that that person could have done for me and Scotch.
James Mackay: Yeah.
Jake Lewellen: And then, you know, fast forward six, seven years later, someone gives me a McAllen. Actually, what happened was someone gave me a really beautiful signatory, Dalmore. It was a 30 year old Dalmore. and it was something that was approachable to my palate, something that I could relate to.
James Mackay: Right.
Jake Lewellen: And then I need to go figure out Scotch because they're so much more profile than just whatever's happening on this little island off the coast of Scotland. but this is a really beautiful whiskey. It really is. It's just different for my palate because I'm not exposed to peat that often.
James Mackay: Mm-hmm. Yep.
Jake Lewellen: But I could see why somebody would enjoy this, especially again, like we talk about the cocktail. I think this is a perfect way to kind of talk about, you know, what what a whiskey could do with the cocktail at the front, middle, and end, right? And this over a cube would also be different, right? Or with the drop of water. Like there's a variety of ways that this expression's gonna change with the things that you could do at home. Yeah.
James Mackay: Yeah. Yeah. Yeah, yeah, now this would work well in a classic cocktail. It would be possibly one of the most extravagantly luxurious cocktails known to man, but yeah, it would, and I'm guessing that, yeah, that smoke would be almost like a mezcal, know, just very, very subtle at the end and make you like, what's that? Wow, yeah.
Jake Lewellen: Yeah. Yeah. Yep, that's exactly what I was was kind of thinking there. and so this leads me to my last question. We've had exceptional casks. You talked about your one of the rarest drams you ever had. but if you were stranded on a desert island and you were picking a cask, right, for James to have, what type of cask would you want sitting there right next to you?
James Mackay: Well, it's got to be something that you like to go back to again and again. So it definitely wouldn't be something too extreme. mean, some drums are amazing just because they're so different, but you may not want to go back to them again and again. It would have to be have for the same reason I have a lot of complexity.
Jake Lewellen: Yeah. Mm.
James Mackay: a lot of layers. And it would, yeah, it would, it need to be A, friendly. So it doesn't matter what mood you're in, you're still gonna like it, but B, not simple, like a lot of different angles. And hey, if I'm gonna get stuck on an island for the rest of my life, I think I'd try and go for something pretty classy. So for me, would be an aged,
Jake Lewellen: Mm. Mm.
James Mackay: a high-aged McCallum.
Jake Lewellen: Mm. Yeah. Well, that leads us perfectly into this 1994 McAllen that we are going to try. there's so many ways to approach it, given the fact that I'm a bourbon drinker by trade. but man, if you could get some of the like Fifteen to eighteen year old Tam Duostock is absolutely out of this world. I like Dalmores in that fourteen to eighteen year old area.
James Mackay: Mm-hmm.
Jake Lewellen: I want something that's approachable and that's, you know, got flavor, complexity, all those things that you're talking about too. and I think secondary maturation helps a lot when you think about that desert island whiskey too. Yeah. Yeah.
James Mackay: Hmm. It gives you the complexity. Yeah.
Jake Lewellen: So I I talked to the McAllen a long time ago and they are known for kind of going over the top in everything that they do. and they have these beautiful lalique crystal glasses that they do tastings with, and I'm lucky enough to have one. They're not cheap. I do know that. but I figured no better way to end this tasting, in the Lalique crystal McAllen glass. so cheers to the McAllen.
James Mackay: Fantastic. Yeah.
Jake Lewellen: So what makes this nineteen ninety four very unique because McAllen seems to be very classic in what they do.
James Mackay: Yeah, well, this one is perhaps not so atypical as some of the others we've had. This one is in the classic McCallan style, but it's just taken to a very, very rarefied level.
Jake Lewellen: Mm.
James Mackay: McCallum do sometimes do single-cast bottle links, but the vast majority of what they do has to be at a bigger scale. But this one is 34 years old. And what the team at Artisanal have done is they made a trip to Jerez in the south of Spain, and they went to the top of the quality cupridge to find
Jake Lewellen: Yeah.
James Mackay: this cask from a famous cupridge called Miguel I Martín. Edrington, who make Macallan, they have sometimes used casks from that cupridge, but they wouldn't use all of them for sure, because they just don't operate at the necessary scale. So this one is, you could almost say it's already a very classy whiskey.
Jake Lewellen: Yeah.
James Mackay: then it's just been slightly modified to take it to an even more fantastic level. And this one really is, I think, a demonstration that Macallan is famous for a reason. A lot of people are a little skeptical sometimes. They're like, really? But then when you try this, and especially if you go back to it, yeah.
Jake Lewellen: Yeah. one hundred percent. Yeah.
James Mackay: you see there's a reason.
Jake Lewellen: There is and you know, this is a hundred and four point four proof. Like you don't typically see s many Scotch whiskeys above the hundred proof from a cash strength perspective. Typically cash strength will still come in under one hundred.
James Mackay: Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. Yeah, this one is very lively. A lot of whiskeys this age, they're going to be getting a little bit tired, a little bit dusty, but this one's got a lot of life in it. And that again is largely down to the superior quality of the cask. If it's really tightly knit, it's not going to evaporate and lose strength at such a fast rate. So this is currently 32 years old. I am pretty sure that the people I'm speaking to, and it's actually a group of people, it's very common with cast like this that syndicates form to share. A bit like, I'm always saying that these kind of casks are, it's like owning a racehorse. It's...
Jake Lewellen: Yeah. one hundred percent. One hundred percent.
James Mackay: Everything about the experience is quite similar and it's a lot of fun if you do it friends. So the groups I'm speaking to that are thinking about this one, for sure they will keep on aging it until it's 35 years old. And potentially, you know, it might even go further. But this is part of the fun because over that time scale, it will change subtly. This one has bags of life in front of it.
Jake Lewellen: Yeah.
James Mackay: even though it's ready to bottle now. And then it's up to the owner. If they're looking to keep a lot of that fruit character, the sort of fragrance, then they'll bottle it sooner rather than later. But if they're looking for something that has more of the tannic dryness to it, then they can achieve that by leaving it in the cast for longer.
Jake Lewellen: Yeah. Yeah, I mean this one seems like it could it could ride for quite a bit longer
James Mackay: got the strength and also it's got the power to deal with the wood in this very special sherry cask.
Jake Lewellen: Yeah. Well only three years in that in that first fill, Pedro Jimenez. So, you know, if this were to go to ten, right, that puts you at thirty eight, like you get seven more years. that cast could probably take seven years, no problem. and it doesn't drink a hundred and four proof, it doesn't drink fifty-two A B V.
James Mackay: Yeah. Bye. That's always the sign of a superior quality, if it's a little bit deceptive. Yeah, it doesn't blow your head off. I think right now it's improved a little bit with a splash of water, a little bit of water. But as it continues to age, you probably need less and less water. But some people prefer it as it is. It's very personal, very subjective.
Jake Lewellen: Yeah. Mm. Well, and it's it's also interesting because like, you know, McCallan, right, you we think of the sherry profile, but this is in the double cask profile, right? Like this is in the ex bourbon cask, which doesn't get the acclaim always that the sherry cast does. And then you all actually did the sherry finishing.
James Mackay: Yeah. The the the initial life in the refill bourbon gives it the longevity. If it had spent its whole life in a first fill sherry, you'd probably have to bottle it right now. In fact, it might even be too late. It would be overpowered. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah.
Jake Lewellen: It'd be like motor oil at this point from a color perspective. but let's say someone is interested. What is the next step look like to partner with you all to be part of the Artisan Cask?
James Mackay: Well, usually they make contact with me. That's really what I enjoy doing is meeting new people. So we've got the website on the Artisinal Spirits company. And I make regular trips to the US. So last month I was, I did a week in Miami and a week in New York City. And I'm looking forward to going to different places. So often I'll meet with the interested person in the US, or if they're making a visit to London or Scotland, then I'll meet them there and get to know them over usually a wide variety of beautiful grounds. So it's a lot of fun. And often the prospective buyer or group of, they're not entirely sure.
Jake Lewellen: Yeah, yeah.
James Mackay: what they want. They know they want something special and unique. So what I often do is just sit down and try lots and lots of different things until it's like, yeah, that's the one, that really speaks to me. This is the one I'd be proud to serve or give as a gift to my best friend or my most important business contact. So that's really how it begins.
Jake Lewellen: Mm.
James Mackay: And people don't necessarily need to have a plan, an idea for every single bottle because you've got time and you can adjust it as you like, as you go along. But yeah, it's very personal. It had to be really. So it inevitably starts with a fun chat or a conversation with me.
Jake Lewellen: Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. And and I mean entry point on this is eighty thousand US minimum probably. Yeah.
James Mackay: That's right. That's where the cast start. We made a decision to put a minimum age of 20 years old. So there are no artisan cast less than 20 years old. There's two reasons for that. One is that we didn't want people to be taking a risk. Now that Scotch whisky and single cast whisky has become a thing.
Jake Lewellen: Mm. Okay. Mm.
James Mackay: Unfortunately, it's given an opening for investment brokers to make a lot of money by telling people, you know, get it when it's really young, which is fine, but you are taking a huge risk because you do not know how the whiskey is going to turn out. So we wanted to avoid that. So with these casks, you know that it's already a winner before you buy it.
Jake Lewellen: Yeah. One hundred percent.
James Mackay: because it's already matured And so that's why there are no young artisan casks. And then the other reason why we start at that point is because almost invariably, once the owner has bought their cask, the next question is, well, when am I going to meet the other owners? This is cool. want to see them. I want to get to know these people. And so we build into the program a regular calendar of really cool events. So we did one in an amazing restaurant in Upper East Side, New York. Hopefully before the year's out, I'll be back in this world famous hotel in Nassau, Bahamas, which has the third
Jake Lewellen: Yeah. Yeah.
James Mackay: biggest wine list in the world and one of the biggest whiskey collections in the world. So they bought a cask. And so every few months I'm doing, hosting an event for owners and then all the owners get to come together. that's difficult to do on a tight budget. And that's the other reason why we put the starting point where we did. So it's 20 years old and roughly 80,000
Jake Lewellen: Yeah.
James Mackay: US for the cast which works out to about 400 a bottle.
Jake Lewellen: Yeah, when you think about it is is a very palatable price point for what you're getting.
James Mackay: it's very important for us, but also our clients, that they get fair value for money. mean, these are usually successful business people. They know what value is and they're not gonna pay over the odds. So we always fix the price of the car based on the market value, the current market value of the whiskey. it's...
Jake Lewellen: yeah. Yeah.
James Mackay: 400 is about what you would pay for a comparable bottle from these distilleries.
Jake Lewellen: Yeah. Well, absolutely brilliant. This has been a phenomenal tasting. So thank you so much, James, Sarah. it's been a blast trying these, getting to know you through this experience. Hopefully we can have you down here to Kentucky and we can walk you through some bourbon. Would love to to do that. Yeah.
James Mackay: Pleasure, absolute pleasure. I really want to do that, yeah. I'm really looking forward to that. And I hope to see you in Scotland one day as well.
Jake Lewellen: that's that's the goal. We just gotta figure out how to get there. Yeah, well, really appreciate it. Thank you everybody for listening to this episode of the Whiskey Lens and James, thanks for hanging out with us. We'll catch you next time. Cheers.
James Mackay: Absolute pleasure, glad to be here.
Jake Lewellen: Yeah. Well, first and foremost, it's always great to have our guests introduce themselves and a little bit about the brand that they represent. So James, I'll let you give a little intro on what Artisan Cask is and who James is.
James Mackay: Okay, well my name is James McKay and I'm the private client director for the Artisanal Spirits Company and it's really all about this new program called Artisan Castes which I call a private cast program. So it's really all about having your own bespoke single malt whiskey that you participate in creating and So it's utterly different from the kind of whiskey that you could buy in a store or in a bar. I guess if it was clothes, it would be like the difference between a haute couture custom made or bespoke suit and something off the rack. It's very, very different. And that's the theme that will crop up. And it's something I've been doing for more than 10 years now. starting with some of largest Scotch whisky companies in the world and now with a specialized company called Artisanal Spirits Company where I think they have the structure and also the car stock that really lets this approach shine through to the best.
Jake Lewellen: Yeah, and if you know anything about Scotch, these are some of the biggest brands that you all have procured in this latest lineup here. And I know enough about Scotch to be dangerous. I I'm I'm really, really excited about this. we've talked about a few questions that we'll ask. What's the rarest dram that you have been able to to try or procure?
James Mackay: That's a pretty easy question for me because last year I took part in this incredible event that happens once every 24 months. It's called the Distillers One of One and it's a charity auction to raise funds for charities across Scotland. So it's all about Scotch whisky and in it you get
Jake Lewellen: Mm.
James Mackay: Whiskies that are as rare as you could possibly get because each bottle is a one-of-one So that is absolutely the definition of rarity. You can't you can't get any rarer than that and I was lucky I Have a wonderful client and good friend and He had a cask his own cask, but he hadn't bottled it. So he said why don't we Take some whiskey out of my cask you put it in a really cool, unique bottle and that'll create a one of one because the rest of the whiskey, he kept aging in his cask. So it was a snapshot, a moment in time in the absolute smallest, rarest volume that is possible to make whiskey in, which is just one bottle. So we did that. It was a 52 year old grain whiskey and it auctioned for
Jake Lewellen: wow.
James Mackay: close to about 20,000 US dollars, which was awesome. That was quite likely a record for a growing whisky, although Sotheby's weren't able to verify it.
Jake Lewellen: Wow, that's that's a lot of
James Mackay: And I did get to try it, which was also pretty cool.
Jake Lewellen: That is definitely very interesting. We were able to have the Benromek 50 last year. that was a beautiful cask. It's never thought I would drink whiskey that was, you know, 20 plus years older than myself. but the the delicate way Scotch is created allows for ultra-aged spirit and
James Mackay: yeah.
Jake Lewellen: It it was exceptional, right? To try, you know, fifty year old scotch was was absolutely beautiful.
James Mackay: Yeah, there's no doubt about it. The age does add something both in terms of the mellow smoothness to the flavor, but also just thinking about that amount of time while you're drinking, it can't fail but to change the experience.
Jake Lewellen: Which which leads us to our first pour of the day, which will be a Mortlock nineteen ninety-one artisan cask number three zero four five nine zero coming at forty three point seven ABV. So can you walk us through a little bit about this Mortlock cast that's in front of us?
James Mackay: Sure, well this is from a fairly well known and amongst experts in the industry, very highly regarded distillery from Speyside called Mortlach. It's from Dufftown and it's very, very close by McAllen. Very different style. It has a famously
Jake Lewellen: Mm.
James Mackay: dark, meaty, almost umami spirit character to it, so much so that its nickname is the Beast of Dovetown. And I used to work with the company that owns the distillery, so I'm very, very familiar with it. And it's usually seen in a very dark, colored, sherryed style. But this one is different.
Jake Lewellen: Mm.
James Mackay: And so this is a theme that we're going to see from Artisan Cask. It's from Mortlac, it's got the quality, but it's atypical. It's very, very different from what you'd expect. And with whiskey, sometimes that's not what you want. What you want is what you know, it's consistency. And that's what most of the big brand owners
Jake Lewellen: Mm.
James Mackay: do because that's what makes money. Artisanal Spirits Company, true to their name, they're different. They want every cask to be different because they're clientele, they're looking for variety, they're not looking for consistency. And for my clients, for artisan casks, they take that a step further because they buy the whole cask, so it's a bespoke whiskey. And that's important for them.
Jake Lewellen: Mm.
James Mackay: because what they want is to be able to be the host or hostess with the most. And they want to leave a lasting impression on people that last forever. And people say, wow, I remember you, you're the person who served me this incredible whiskey and I've never seen it since then. And the answer is no, you won't because all mine. So you'll never see it in a store. So both in terms of the approach,
Jake Lewellen: Yeah.
James Mackay: the variety in individual character, but also just the way it's structured is why artisan casks cannot and will not ever be sold through retail. So this Mortlac is definitely a one-off, it's a unique. I don't think that they would ever be able to replicate this.
Jake Lewellen: Yeah. And and Yeah, it's it's very interesting and and I love the A B V at forty three point seven. Very approachable. Yeah.
James Mackay: Yeah, it's naturally, naturally mellowed out over the 34 years it's been in the cask. All our Cazanne casks, common with a lot of very high-end collectible scotch, is bottled at natural cast strength. That's how people like it, and then they can adjust water as they like. This one really doesn't need any water because...
Jake Lewellen: Mm-hmm.
James Mackay: after such a long time in the cask, it's naturally got down to the kind of strength that you would typically use for drinking, which is a lovely way to do it. We'll go on to talk a bit about what I call the artisanal way, how they look after these casks. It is very individual and usually they'll do whatever they can to improve that whiskey inside the cask. by maybe finding a better quality cask and moving the whiskey into it. But with this one, they figured nothing's broke, so we ain't gonna fix this thing. It's beautiful the way it is. So it's...
Jake Lewellen: Yeah. it is it is very lovely on the nose. it's l I think umami's the the best way to say it. There's like some salinity, there's some floral notes, there's the vanillins, you get a touch of that Pedro Hamina sherry that this touches for a very brief time in there. very approachable from a nose perspective. And this is a This is a scotch that if a bourbon drinker like myself were to get a hold of, it's not gonna it's not gonna scare him away. This isn't your LaFroig or any of those. This is a very nice and delicate approach to to whiskey. Very custardy on the nose
James Mackay: I would say it's a good aperitif. Yeah, it's not too rich.
Jake Lewellen: Yeah. So when a person purchases one of these casks, how do they they receive it? Do they receive it in a like a bottle format? How do they go back to it when they need replenishment? How does that work from a a purchase perspective?
James Mackay: The end result is bottles. But it's all about doing everything in a bespoke way and to suit the personal needs of the owner. So they will have the bottles, but they can choose where the bottles go and when. So instead of just... buying the bottles and having them delivered to your home. Typically, they're kept in a duty-free storage in Scotland. And then the owner will decide maybe I'll get two cases sent out to the US and maybe I'll get two cases sent out to Europe. I'll keep some in Scotland from when I visit. They've got that flexibility. And so the end result is the bottles, but also
Jake Lewellen: Mm. very nice.
James Mackay: One of the most popular features about the program is that to a certain extent, the owner has participated in making the whisky themselves. So as well as deciding where and when and how to have the bottles delivered, they also get to decide how old the whisky should be. And so they speak to the whisky maker. They taste samples and we let people take up to two sample bottles out of the cask every year while it's aging. So at the beginning, what they do is they buy the whiskey through a contract while it's still sitting in Scotland in our own warehouses. They can go and see the cask, but typically they'll take samples out. Maybe some people build a...
Jake Lewellen: Mm. Mm.
James Mackay: vertical library once a year, a couple of bottles, and then they decide when it's time to bottle. With this cask, it's really very, very venerable. It's got to the absolute peak. So this one, I would expect a buyer would bottle fairly soon. Some of the other ones we'll try. Potentially an owner could continue aging whiskey for many years.
Jake Lewellen: Yeah. Yep. Beautiful. whoever whoever buys this cask is going to be in for a treat for a long period of time.
James Mackay: It'll be, I think, not an exaggeration to say it'll be a part of them. I know this because in the last 10 years, I've dealt with many, people who I've gotten to know now. And at the beginning, they said to me, well, yeah, James, know, it's 150 odd bottles. That's a lot. I don't think I need that many. I know, I'll buy the cask and then I'll sell half the bottles and then I'll keep.
Jake Lewellen: Yeah, one hundred percent.
James Mackay: I'll keep the other half. Yeah, that's fairly, sounds fairly sensible. But after 10 years, I can promise you that not one of those people has sold all half of their bottles because they don't want to. It's like, then they're a part of me. I couldn't bear it, you know? And also they find that it's such a cool story to tell people and it leaves such a big impression on people when it's like, wow, this really is your whiskey that you made.
Jake Lewellen: Ha ha. Yeah.
James Mackay: It's such a great gift so that people find the value and the pleasure they get from it is many times higher than the cash they might get from reselling. it's a very personal thing.
Jake Lewellen: Well, and and it becomes a very personal gift when you do give it, right? Because it's it's part of your personal collection that you've you know you've created. this one is a very, very delicate whiskey on the palate. it is meaty, like you said. It does have a nice viscosity to it. I do find that with single malts in general, they do have typically good viscosity because the pot's still distillation. but it's it's fatty. It stays with you for a while. The back end sherry notes, but very sweet vanilla up top, very front. It's a it's a very, very well balanced pour start to finish.
James Mackay: It's got all the right features that you look for. So it is, as you say, in balance and it's got multiple layers as well. So it's not a whiskey that's like a one trick pony. It's got many, different facets. And I'm pretty sure if you leave a bit in your glass and you come back to it this evening, you'll get a completely different experience. know, have a whole new side to it.
Jake Lewellen: Mm-hmm. Yeah. Well, and that's what I was what I'm looking forward to because you know the next question is right, when you are drinking these rather delicate but also you know, I would say ultra exclusive, expensive cask, the right drinkware is vitally important, right? So as someone who is tasting people on these very rare casks and helping them curate this experience so that they potentially purchase something like that, what's your preferred glassware that you like to drink out of?
James Mackay: It's a good question. think that with something like this, it's always going to be special. So I don't usually try and go too far overboard in terms of telling people, you must do it this way. If you wanted it in a rocks glass with some ice, especially if you're sat in Paris at the moment and there's no air con, it's 42 degrees, I think that's fine.
Jake Lewellen: Yeah. Yeah.
James Mackay: But definitely with these whiskies, if you really want to get the complexity, then you need a glass that has the tulip shape to it. There's no doubt about it that shows it off to its best. yeah, mean, the classic Glencairn style glass, I think, does the trick.
Jake Lewellen: Yeah. Yeah.
James Mackay: When I'm doing dinner events, I'll often use ones with a stem. I think that just to add a certain bit of class to it as well.
Jake Lewellen: They do. I really have gotten into stemmed glassware and I also like that like my hands not heating it the whole time as well. I'm very much like a glass of wine. So I I enjoy scotch, especially because it's a little bit more delicate a lot of times. I enjoy scotch and a stone glassware. but I mean, obviously they created the Glencaron, so they know what they're doing. They know how to make make a whiskey glass. which leads us into our next pour, which is a Bunahabin, which is one of my favorite names to say in all of Scotch. it's just fun. and
James Mackay: Yeah.
Jake Lewellen: The releases I've had from Buddha Hobbin tend to be exceptional this one is my age. this one is from 1989. and this comes in at 43. And I took an I took a nose of this, and this is this is as much a bourbon drinker scotch as I've probably ever smelled.
James Mackay: Thanks. Mm-hmm. Yeah. Yeah, I think you're right. It's, This is definitely, I think, most... one of the most complicated... whiskeys in terms of the it's been made. They really, really pull out all the stops on this one. So going back to what I would call commercial whiskeys that are made to be very consistent and sold at retail, those will be made from casks just like these, but those casks will all be mixed together because that's the only way you can get that consistency.
Jake Lewellen: Okay. Mm.
James Mackay: And before all of those casts are mixed together, they just leave those casts sitting in the warehouse. And there's no point in doing much with those casts because they're all going to get put into the same vat eventually. With the Artisanal Spirits company, they look after casts knowing that they're all each going to be bottled individually. So it's a very, very different attitude and a different working process.
Jake Lewellen: Mm.
James Mackay: from time to time, they'll take the whiskey out of one cask and put it into another cask, which in the industry is called re-racking. And that's expensive to do. It's a lot of work. And so it's very unusual that people do that. But what you get is more and more complexity in the whiskey because the wood.
Jake Lewellen: Yeah. Yeah.
James Mackay: when you change it over. It's a little different from what people call finishing. Finishing is typically about three to six months in the new cask. These ones are more a new chapter in the development of the whisky, so we're talking years. So this one, that's right. And this one has been re-ranged not once, but twice, which is pretty cool. So it's had 28 years in...
Jake Lewellen: Mm. Yeah, secondary maturation or tertiary maturation. Okay.
James Mackay: Refill American oak bourbon, which is your classic cask that it's been used for bourbon in the US and then it goes across the Atlantic and then it's used for whiskey. This is refill meaning it's not that active. It's been used plenty of times and that's actually a good thing when you want it to age this far because it's very active.
Jake Lewellen: Mm. Yeah.
James Mackay: cast will get unbalanced rather quickly. So that's what you want. Then it did seven years in another refill cast, but it was a refill sherry cask. And even though it's a refill sherry cask, it must have been pretty active because the color is crazy dark. And that'll come from that second maturation in the sherry. And then the last year has been in back to Bourbon, but a much more active Bourbon cask. So in a way you could say it's 28 years has smoothed it off and given it that classy, really high age distinction. And then you've got the heavy impact of sherry over seven years and then a little bit of extra layer of Bourbon.
Jake Lewellen: Mm. Yeah.
James Mackay: vanilla on the last year. And like the first cask, this one is really at the peak of its maturation journey. So again, this one is one that you would likely bottle fairly soon. It wouldn't improve by aging any much further.
Jake Lewellen: Yeah. I No, I couldn't imagine this one going much further, especially in a more active bourbon barrel. we've got really into what we call maple brulee toasting here in America. So in a secondary maturation or a finishing cask, what they'll do is they'll rechar Maple like maple syrup will go get finished in a bourbon barrel and then they'll rechar the bourbon barrel with the maple syrup inside. So it creates like a crime burlet style experience. And but it it leans into like this kind of crime burlet maple syrup note that I get really on the nose here. It's kind of
James Mackay: yeah.
Jake Lewellen: the nice thing is like it doesn't like over sweeten the palate the palate actually is more dried stewed fruits which is really nice
James Mackay: It's quite drying. Yeah, it's not sweet. whereas the first, the mortlach was an aperitif tram, this is very much a digestif. This is an after dinner tram, for sure.
Jake Lewellen: Yeah. It is. I mean, you get you a a nice pudding, a figy pudding, and you know, have a have a dram of this, you'll be you'll be good to go. what does the consumer look like to you as you try to find someone to purchase this and be a part of this really kind of one of one experience?
James Mackay: Mm-hmm. Well, that's actually probably the single most enjoyable thing about my job is getting to know these people and some of them have become really great friends over the last 10 years. Obviously they're people who've been quite successful financially because if you're buying your own cask that is necessary but they're also very fun
Jake Lewellen: Mm.
James Mackay: sociable friendly people and they're people who like to celebrate their success and connect with other people through celebrating the good things in life, especially with good food, great whiskey, often they're into wine as well. Many of them have watch collections as well. And they want, when they get their friends or business associates together, They want everyone to remember the evening. They don't want it to just be, it was just another dinner. They want it to be super unique. So that's really what's driving them is to have something that's unique and memorable, but also very, very deeply personal, and then to be able to share that with as many people as they can.
Jake Lewellen: Yeah. Yeah. No, I mean, this is this takes single barrels, what we do in America quite often, and like puts it on steroids. and these pores are are phenomenal and like I could see you know, high net worth individuals, you know, wanting to do that because they do like that show stopping experience. And they pair this with a nice dinner and you bring this out and you walk them through like, hey, this is what I did and how we paired it with, you know, the appetizers all the way to through through the final course and you can have it a variety of different ways, which leads me to the the next question that I have for you is, how is cocktail culture with Scotch whiskey, right? and what is your favorite kind of cocktail to make with with a scotch whiskey?
James Mackay: Mm-hmm. it's cocktails are not as deep a part of the culture in, in Scotland than, than in the U S. but everyone's very interested and very open. And, so it's, it's something you'll see in most of us in Scotland. and people are very proud, you know, of having. Scotch whiskey is part of the national culture. So often it will go in and typically what you'll find is people go for the classics but swapping out say the bourbon in a boulevardier for Scotch. And that usually works best because those are tried and true classics but they also allow the spirit.
Jake Lewellen: Mm.
James Mackay: to shine through. And you can quickly tell, especially if you use, let's say, smoky, peated Scotch whiskey, it transforms the classic cocktail, whether it's like a Boulevardier or an old-fashioned or something like that. I think another reason why it's not as prevalent as it maybe has been in the US is because for a while people thought Scotch is
Jake Lewellen: Yeah.
James Mackay: is too special to go in a cocktail. Fortunately that's been put to bed now. And if anything I'd say Scotch is better in some of these cocktails because the character of the whisky can cut through a lot of the other parts of the cocktail.
Jake Lewellen: Yeah. So that leads us to probably one of the most interesting from my nosing perspective, and I'm gonna let you say the name of it. we're moving to to Isla, I I believe here with this one. This is definitely a Peded expression. So this is a nineteen ninety. I can tell you that. It's it's it's almost as old as me. Sorry. Cat
James Mackay: This is. This is Cowell-Eler, two words,
Jake Lewellen: is this a PT from like the Isla area?
James Mackay: Yeah, this is a classic Peter's Islay whiskey. For a long time, it was used to create the smoky element of the Johnny Walker blend. And for that reason, it's not as famous as some of the other distilleries, single malt distilleries on Islay, but amongst whiskey aficionados, it's right up there with the greats. And it
Jake Lewellen: Okay.
James Mackay: typically has a combination of that smoke but also with a sort of floral, flowery, almost citrusy element to it. But again, in keeping with artisan casks, we try to make sure that nothing is plain vanilla or as you would find it in the shops. So this one has spent its whole life in a sherry. but not an active, overbearing sherry cask, which is why the colour is much paler than you'd expect for something that's spent so long in a sherry cask. So this sherry cask must have been reused a lot. This is probably towards the end of its life. And some casks, they have a lifespan of about 100 years. which is nice because that's kind of how long it takes for an oak tree to grow. So it all fits together. But this one is exactly what you want for such an old whiskey because it matures very, very gradually and gently. It doesn't just whack all the flavor in in the first few years. and because it's a sherry cask and...
Jake Lewellen: Mm.
James Mackay: in European oak, you're not going to get anything like what you'd expect from a bourbon cask. It's much more savoury style. So it's very different from what you'd expect from a kalila. The smoke is there. The smoke can only come from the distillery, but the very unusual
Jake Lewellen: Mm. Yeah.
James Mackay: style of wood and also the very, very long amount of time is creating probably the kind of kalila that you would be able to find anywhere. And that's what my clients are often saying is we'll always give them a range of different options to choose from. And the last step before they take the leap and buy the cask is always a tasting. And usually what they'll often say
Jake Lewellen: Yeah.
James Mackay: Well first of all I'll ask a question. Are there any other cast like this one? And we always say no, because that's how we select the casks based on being unique. So it's like, okay, good. then they'll go away and think about it. And then when they come back and they say, yeah, that was the one for me, they'll often say, it's because I did my research and then I figured out that it's impossible to find anything like this in the shops. So that's why I wanted it to be mine, because it's such an individual.
Jake Lewellen: Yeah. Yeah. the last great toe dipping that I have to do, honestly, is to get into more peated scotches. or if we were talking to our friends in Ireland, turfed, you know, just don't want to hate on my Irish friends here. it this is it's it's a bigger peat.
James Mackay: Mm-hmm. Yeah.
Jake Lewellen: But it's not it's an approachable peat on this, right? Because I think the sherry kind of rounds the peat out. and you do get that a little bit of sherry characteristic. just kinda like you get it in the back end of the nose, you get it through the back end of the palate, and so it's this really nice like red fruit note that you kind of get that kind of balances out like the the I would say the
James Mackay: Yeah.
Jake Lewellen: intensity of the smoke that that is in this whiskey.
James Mackay: Yeah, it's, in my opinion, that's largely due to the age. Young Khalilas, you're going to get a blast of smoke right at the front, which if you're not used to it, it's quite hard to handle. But once it's been in the cast for more than 30 years, at the beginning, especially with this one, you're wondering, have I got the right?
Jake Lewellen: Yeah.
James Mackay: right glass because I'm not sure if I can smell any smoke and then it goes down it's like nice flavor and then oh then the smoke sort of gently rolls across across your palate. So I think it's a great way to get into a of whiskey is by trying some of these extremely old ones, albeit an expensive way to get into it but yeah it's the most subtle way.
Jake Lewellen: Yeah. Yeah. It's the best way to approach it really, because you know, American whiskey drinkers still believe that all scotch is peated, right? and we've just showed you two other ones right before this that are a non-peted whiskey. And I've said this story many times throughout the years, but the first introduction to Scotch I ever had, someone gave me a Pete Monster. It was the worst thing that that person could have done for me and Scotch.
James Mackay: Yeah.
Jake Lewellen: And then, you know, fast forward six, seven years later, someone gives me a McAllen. Actually, what happened was someone gave me a really beautiful signatory, Dalmore. It was a 30 year old Dalmore. and it was something that was approachable to my palate, something that I could relate to.
James Mackay: Right.
Jake Lewellen: And then I need to go figure out Scotch because they're so much more profile than just whatever's happening on this little island off the coast of Scotland. but this is a really beautiful whiskey. It really is. It's just different for my palate because I'm not exposed to peat that often.
James Mackay: Mm-hmm. Yep.
Jake Lewellen: But I could see why somebody would enjoy this, especially again, like we talk about the cocktail. I think this is a perfect way to kind of talk about, you know, what what a whiskey could do with the cocktail at the front, middle, and end, right? And this over a cube would also be different, right? Or with the drop of water. Like there's a variety of ways that this expression's gonna change with the things that you could do at home. Yeah.
James Mackay: Yeah. Yeah. Yeah, yeah, now this would work well in a classic cocktail. It would be possibly one of the most extravagantly luxurious cocktails known to man, but yeah, it would, and I'm guessing that, yeah, that smoke would be almost like a mezcal, know, just very, very subtle at the end and make you like, what's that? Wow, yeah.
Jake Lewellen: Yeah. Yeah. Yep, that's exactly what I was was kind of thinking there. and so this leads me to my last question. We've had exceptional casks. You talked about your one of the rarest drams you ever had. but if you were stranded on a desert island and you were picking a cask, right, for James to have, what type of cask would you want sitting there right next to you?
James Mackay: Well, it's got to be something that you like to go back to again and again. So it definitely wouldn't be something too extreme. mean, some drums are amazing just because they're so different, but you may not want to go back to them again and again. It would have to be have for the same reason I have a lot of complexity.
Jake Lewellen: Yeah. Mm.
James Mackay: a lot of layers. And it would, yeah, it would, it need to be A, friendly. So it doesn't matter what mood you're in, you're still gonna like it, but B, not simple, like a lot of different angles. And hey, if I'm gonna get stuck on an island for the rest of my life, I think I'd try and go for something pretty classy. So for me, would be an aged,
Jake Lewellen: Mm. Mm.
James Mackay: a high-aged McCallum.
Jake Lewellen: Mm. Yeah. Well, that leads us perfectly into this 1994 McAllen that we are going to try. there's so many ways to approach it, given the fact that I'm a bourbon drinker by trade. but man, if you could get some of the like Fifteen to eighteen year old Tam Duostock is absolutely out of this world. I like Dalmores in that fourteen to eighteen year old area.
James Mackay: Mm-hmm.
Jake Lewellen: I want something that's approachable and that's, you know, got flavor, complexity, all those things that you're talking about too. and I think secondary maturation helps a lot when you think about that desert island whiskey too. Yeah. Yeah.
James Mackay: Hmm. It gives you the complexity. Yeah.
Jake Lewellen: So I I talked to the McAllen a long time ago and they are known for kind of going over the top in everything that they do. and they have these beautiful lalique crystal glasses that they do tastings with, and I'm lucky enough to have one. They're not cheap. I do know that. but I figured no better way to end this tasting, in the Lalique crystal McAllen glass. so cheers to the McAllen.
James Mackay: Fantastic. Yeah.
Jake Lewellen: So what makes this nineteen ninety four very unique because McAllen seems to be very classic in what they do.
James Mackay: Yeah, well, this one is perhaps not so atypical as some of the others we've had. This one is in the classic McCallan style, but it's just taken to a very, very rarefied level.
Jake Lewellen: Mm.
James Mackay: McCallum do sometimes do single-cast bottle links, but the vast majority of what they do has to be at a bigger scale. But this one is 34 years old. And what the team at Artisanal have done is they made a trip to Jerez in the south of Spain, and they went to the top of the quality cupridge to find
Jake Lewellen: Yeah.
James Mackay: this cask from a famous cupridge called Miguel I Martín. Edrington, who make Macallan, they have sometimes used casks from that cupridge, but they wouldn't use all of them for sure, because they just don't operate at the necessary scale. So this one is, you could almost say it's already a very classy whiskey.
Jake Lewellen: Yeah.
James Mackay: then it's just been slightly modified to take it to an even more fantastic level. And this one really is, I think, a demonstration that Macallan is famous for a reason. A lot of people are a little skeptical sometimes. They're like, really? But then when you try this, and especially if you go back to it, yeah.
Jake Lewellen: Yeah. one hundred percent. Yeah.
James Mackay: you see there's a reason.
Jake Lewellen: There is and you know, this is a hundred and four point four proof. Like you don't typically see s many Scotch whiskeys above the hundred proof from a cash strength perspective. Typically cash strength will still come in under one hundred.
James Mackay: Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. Yeah, this one is very lively. A lot of whiskeys this age, they're going to be getting a little bit tired, a little bit dusty, but this one's got a lot of life in it. And that again is largely down to the superior quality of the cask. If it's really tightly knit, it's not going to evaporate and lose strength at such a fast rate. So this is currently 32 years old. I am pretty sure that the people I'm speaking to, and it's actually a group of people, it's very common with cast like this that syndicates form to share. A bit like, I'm always saying that these kind of casks are, it's like owning a racehorse. It's...
Jake Lewellen: Yeah. one hundred percent. One hundred percent.
James Mackay: Everything about the experience is quite similar and it's a lot of fun if you do it friends. So the groups I'm speaking to that are thinking about this one, for sure they will keep on aging it until it's 35 years old. And potentially, you know, it might even go further. But this is part of the fun because over that time scale, it will change subtly. This one has bags of life in front of it.
Jake Lewellen: Yeah.
James Mackay: even though it's ready to bottle now. And then it's up to the owner. If they're looking to keep a lot of that fruit character, the sort of fragrance, then they'll bottle it sooner rather than later. But if they're looking for something that has more of the tannic dryness to it, then they can achieve that by leaving it in the cast for longer.
Jake Lewellen: Yeah. Yeah, I mean this one seems like it could it could ride for quite a bit longer
James Mackay: got the strength and also it's got the power to deal with the wood in this very special sherry cask.
Jake Lewellen: Yeah. Well only three years in that in that first fill, Pedro Jimenez. So, you know, if this were to go to ten, right, that puts you at thirty eight, like you get seven more years. that cast could probably take seven years, no problem. and it doesn't drink a hundred and four proof, it doesn't drink fifty-two A B V.
James Mackay: Yeah. Bye. That's always the sign of a superior quality, if it's a little bit deceptive. Yeah, it doesn't blow your head off. I think right now it's improved a little bit with a splash of water, a little bit of water. But as it continues to age, you probably need less and less water. But some people prefer it as it is. It's very personal, very subjective.
Jake Lewellen: Yeah. Mm. Well, and it's it's also interesting because like, you know, McCallan, right, you we think of the sherry profile, but this is in the double cask profile, right? Like this is in the ex bourbon cask, which doesn't get the acclaim always that the sherry cast does. And then you all actually did the sherry finishing.
James Mackay: Yeah. The the the initial life in the refill bourbon gives it the longevity. If it had spent its whole life in a first fill sherry, you'd probably have to bottle it right now. In fact, it might even be too late. It would be overpowered. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah.
Jake Lewellen: It'd be like motor oil at this point from a color perspective. but let's say someone is interested. What is the next step look like to partner with you all to be part of the Artisan Cask?
James Mackay: Well, usually they make contact with me. That's really what I enjoy doing is meeting new people. So we've got the website on the Artisinal Spirits company. And I make regular trips to the US. So last month I was, I did a week in Miami and a week in New York City. And I'm looking forward to going to different places. So often I'll meet with the interested person in the US, or if they're making a visit to London or Scotland, then I'll meet them there and get to know them over usually a wide variety of beautiful grounds. So it's a lot of fun. And often the prospective buyer or group of, they're not entirely sure.
Jake Lewellen: Yeah, yeah.
James Mackay: what they want. They know they want something special and unique. So what I often do is just sit down and try lots and lots of different things until it's like, yeah, that's the one, that really speaks to me. This is the one I'd be proud to serve or give as a gift to my best friend or my most important business contact. So that's really how it begins.
Jake Lewellen: Mm.
James Mackay: And people don't necessarily need to have a plan, an idea for every single bottle because you've got time and you can adjust it as you like, as you go along. But yeah, it's very personal. It had to be really. So it inevitably starts with a fun chat or a conversation with me.
Jake Lewellen: Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. And and I mean entry point on this is eighty thousand US minimum probably. Yeah.
James Mackay: That's right. That's where the cast start. We made a decision to put a minimum age of 20 years old. So there are no artisan cast less than 20 years old. There's two reasons for that. One is that we didn't want people to be taking a risk. Now that Scotch whisky and single cast whisky has become a thing.
Jake Lewellen: Mm. Okay. Mm.
James Mackay: Unfortunately, it's given an opening for investment brokers to make a lot of money by telling people, you know, get it when it's really young, which is fine, but you are taking a huge risk because you do not know how the whiskey is going to turn out. So we wanted to avoid that. So with these casks, you know that it's already a winner before you buy it.
Jake Lewellen: Yeah. One hundred percent.
James Mackay: because it's already matured And so that's why there are no young artisan casks. And then the other reason why we start at that point is because almost invariably, once the owner has bought their cask, the next question is, well, when am I going to meet the other owners? This is cool. want to see them. I want to get to know these people. And so we build into the program a regular calendar of really cool events. So we did one in an amazing restaurant in Upper East Side, New York. Hopefully before the year's out, I'll be back in this world famous hotel in Nassau, Bahamas, which has the third
Jake Lewellen: Yeah. Yeah.
James Mackay: biggest wine list in the world and one of the biggest whiskey collections in the world. So they bought a cask. And so every few months I'm doing, hosting an event for owners and then all the owners get to come together. that's difficult to do on a tight budget. And that's the other reason why we put the starting point where we did. So it's 20 years old and roughly 80,000
Jake Lewellen: Yeah.
James Mackay: US for the cast which works out to about 400 a bottle.
Jake Lewellen: Yeah, when you think about it is is a very palatable price point for what you're getting.
James Mackay: it's very important for us, but also our clients, that they get fair value for money. mean, these are usually successful business people. They know what value is and they're not gonna pay over the odds. So we always fix the price of the car based on the market value, the current market value of the whiskey. it's...
Jake Lewellen: yeah. Yeah.
James Mackay: 400 is about what you would pay for a comparable bottle from these distilleries.
Jake Lewellen: Yeah. Well, absolutely brilliant. This has been a phenomenal tasting. So thank you so much, James, Sarah. it's been a blast trying these, getting to know you through this experience. Hopefully we can have you down here to Kentucky and we can walk you through some bourbon. Would love to to do that. Yeah.
James Mackay: Pleasure, absolute pleasure. I really want to do that, yeah. I'm really looking forward to that. And I hope to see you in Scotland one day as well.
Jake Lewellen: that's that's the goal. We just gotta figure out how to get there. Yeah, well, really appreciate it. Thank you everybody for listening to this episode of the Whiskey Lens and James, thanks for hanging out with us. We'll catch you next time. Cheers.
