Katie Wilson: Hello, and welcome to Bop Boundaries, where we explore what it means to be human in the age of AI. I'm Katie Wilson, and with me as always is my awesome co-host, Jackie Gutierrez.
Jackie: Hey Katie, happy to be here.
Katie Wilson: Yes, me too. Okay, quick question for you, Jackie, related to our topic today. What now has more members than any religion except Christianity and Islam and didn't exist five years ago?
Jackie: Interesting question. Could it be Chat GPT?
Katie Wilson: Close, close and partially right. It's a tie, actually, right now, between Chat GPT and Google Gemini. both just crossed a billion users within days of each other. So today we're gonna get into what that milestone really means because the headlines don't really tell the full story. and we'll see some discrepancies there in measurement, as well as some backlash we're seeing with the prevalence of user growth in AI. And when we see a billion, really that's not a user base, that's like a whole population of people. Bigger than most countries, like we said before, bigger than most religions. So we're gonna get into that today and talk about the scope and growth of AI. So here's the headline everyone ran with, and we saw in a lot in the news over the last week Chat GPT and Gemini both hit a billion users this month. So, you know, that headline implies that they're basically tied in terms of usage, except that's not quite the full story. So we're gonna break down what those numbers really mean and how each of those companies got there and how they Put that out in the press. So Google actually announced this on August 11th, so very recently, that Gemini crossed a billion monthly active users. And coming from Google myself, a billion users is a big milestone for them. So anytime they would say we have nine products now, they have 10 products with a billion users. You know, when Gmail crossed a billion users, it was a big celebration. So that tends to be for the company a big anchor in terms of like this is a dominant product. And OpenAI's billion is a weekly active user milestone that they hit in July. And they publicly highlighted it on August 6th, just a few days before Google. so weekly is the harder bar to clear in terms of users. So it means more people are opening the app more often. Calling this a tie is kind of like comparing apples to oranges or comparing two runners that are tied because they will finish the race, but one ran a 5K and one ran a marathon, right? So Chat GPT has more usage by doing the weekly one. Google is obviously looking at monthly active users, which is just the way that they measure it, but it's not quite the same. But in the headlines, you know, they're definitely trying to portray them as the same.
Jackie: Yeah, I mean good good good point there, but you know, their their accomplishment with that billion dollar number is still pretty pretty impactful. I mean, it was just under a billion a few months ago, right?
Katie Wilson: Absolutely. So Gemini's really growing fast, probably faster than Chat GPT because it's been around less time. That's definitely the part that impressed me. Gemini, Gemini went from about 750 million monthly users earlier this year to 950 million in July and crossed a billion in August. So Google's own comparison is that Gmail took about 14 years to reach that scale. And Gemini did it in under one year. So that's a big difference and it shows really high growth. But you might be asking, How, since Chat GPT had a head start, you know, how is Google counting usage? So I think that's really important. And also how are they integrating Gemini into their other products and are they counting that? So it's two different paths, the same number. You know, Chat GPT grew organically. People chose to go and download it, chose to go and use the web output. This was a new product, a new URL, a new, you know, destination for people to go to. So in some ways that's a little harder from you know a marketing
Jackie: Yeah.
Katie Wilson: standpoint or a growth standpoint. Gemini got there through organic growth, plus I would say a serious assist from being the top default assistant baked into Android phones, right? So Google, you know, a lot of people think iPhones and they're very dominant, yes, but Android has a huge share of market. And if Gemini is the down downloadable already on your phone, AI assistant, you're gonna start using it a lot more. so it's that difference, really. It's like the difference between earthing an audience like ChatGPT had to, and you know, some people might say being handed one on the Google side because they're integrating it with their other products. You know, both count, they might not mean the same thing to to people in terms of the how fast it grow grew. You know, it's worth noting too, Gemini is also integrated into organic search as AI mode. When you see AI mode with Google. But Google is actually saying that number is not what they're counting. They're counting standalone Gemini use. But I would argue as a good user of Google products, you know, even now on my Chrome tab, there's an Ask Gemini. Like that would be a standalone use because I have to click on that button and then it takes me to Gemini. But Gemini is being promoted across all of their products all the time. So it does give them a little bit of a heads up in terms of integration, you know, but that's a wise thing to do from a business standpoint. I'm not saying
Jackie: Course.
Katie Wilson: it's cheating. It's a wise thing to do. but it's just a different metric.
Jackie: Yeah, it's interesting everything you point out there. I think that they obviously had an advantage because they had brand trust and
Katie Wilson: Totally.
Jackie: their products are already out there. So they just integrated these features that directed the user to Gemini. So and it it's not cheating. they're
Katie Wilson: Yeah.
Jackie: just a legacy brand that exists and they integrate it. Unlike some other software where they're forcing us to use these AI features
Katie Wilson: Yes.
Jackie: that we don't really want, it seems like they're doing it pretty successfully, right?
Katie Wilson: Yeah, totally. They're giving you the option. Like I even see it in Gmail. It's like, do you want a AI summary of this email? And sometimes it's like, sure, I do actually. This is a very long thread. I appreciate it.
Jackie: Yeah, yeah. So with all that, there's a marketing angle worth, you know,
Katie Wilson: Absolutely.
Jackie: talking about. Google's announcement of this billion users landed right before their made by Google hardware event. That timing isn't an accident. It's real, genuinely fast climb and it's a number picked in time to make the biggest possible splash next to a competitor's number. wonder how they know that chat I mean.
Katie Wilson: Well Chat GPT announced it first, like on they said on LinkedIn. Yeah. Yeah. They moved fast. They probably were like,
Jackie: I know, but how did Google know the timing? I guess they move fast. They just move really fast. Yeah, yeah, yeah.
Katie Wilson: Hey, we're close to a billion two. Announce it at this event. Yeah.
Jackie: Yeah, you're right. Okay. Then there's the reality of active users versus returning users that sometimes these, you know, brands aren't really talking about. And
Katie Wilson: Yeah.
Jackie: truly defining and segmenting the mix of casual single visit drop-ins with high frequency loyalists could give us a real, you know, versus those high frequency loyalists could give us a real picture of what's really going on with growth. I mean, these big billion numbers are like super impressive, but you gotta dig into it a little bit more. And in
Katie Wilson: solo
Jackie: and in many cases, true returning users form habits that represent a smaller fraction of some of those big numbers that we're seeing.
Katie Wilson: Yeah, yeah. This is always the case when people are like, we want to get to X users. as, you know, a consultant and also, you know, as you know, a provider of of some of some of these folks when I when I was working at Google, you want to ask, but like what's the secondary metrics? Once we hit that, is it a one-term use? We always talked about lifetime value, you know, and I know from a marketing standpoint you're looking at that too. What you really care about is return users. You care about those power users, you care about how many times they're coming back, how often, you care about if they're paid versus free users. Right. So these are all like these
Jackie: Definitely.
Katie Wilson: secondary metrics that I really think we'll be able we'll be able to see coming forward. That's not what they're going to put out there. It's not the big splashy number, but that's the kind of stuff like I'm interested in hearing about to compare the two.
Jackie: Yeah.
Katie Wilson: but one thing that's clear, you know, there's a real behavior shift happening for users. So Google said 63% of Gemini's monthly users are interacting by voice. People are turning on their camera or sharing their screen and asking AI to look at what they're looking at. Or they might be asking a question directly into their phone. so we're really past that error of typing like a carefully crafted prompt into the box. A billion people are really just talking to the phone like it's a person, at least from the Google side, what they're reporting, which we have talked about, you know, the harmfulness of on this podcast before, of where we're, you know, in terms of psychology and effects of feeling that kind of closeness with an AI tool. talking to it and having a relationship versus typing is very different psychologically for people. So that's an interesting thing I thought that they pointed out and they wanted to highlight, you know, as as as a a metric.
Jackie: Yeah, totally. Good point. so both both of these brands, companies, have their billion. So what happens next? So the race changes shape now. Once you've got the users, the pressure shifts to monetization. OpenAI has already been expanding ads inside ChatGPT and more markets. I'm seeing more of them for sure. so the free helpful assistant era doesn't disappear, but I'd expect it to get a lot more commercial. A lot faster, you know, than people might be ready for.
Katie Wilson: Absolutely. I think you know, more people now use Chat GPT or Gemini every week than live in almost any country on earth. so that's not really a tech story anymore. It's a culture shifting story, like of of users' behavior. And if you're a business owner, a salesperson, a creator, you know, a customer, you have to have a plan for AI assistant because you know that people are going to be using it. and you need to build trust and make sure your brand is showing up in these assistants too. It's changing how people research. It's changing how they compare you to competitors and how they expect to be talked to. We talked about those results and how that's changing. and also really realizing monetization is coming. We're getting into Q4, which is like a really big profitable time for a lot of retailers and a lot of businesses. How is AI overviews and AI in search going to change behaviors for users and maybe change your investment in terms of ads? That's a really big question a lot of my clients have been asking me lately. Now Chat GPT and Gemini have this large loyal audience of this size. You know, these companies are going to be expected to start turning a profit on this tool very soon. And their investors and shareholders are going to be saying, okay, that's great, a billion, but how much are we making off this? What's the ad revenue? Where are we projecting that to be in five years, 10 years? So, you know, it's it's kind of like when search was starting and or mobile, the shift to mobile was a big one as well, where it quickly turns to monetization and those requirements get very hard to compete with. So I totally feel in Q four we're gonna be seeing a lot more ads.
Jackie: You're just giving me a fever dream there of back in like two thousand eleven
Katie Wilson: Yeah.
Jackie: your pitch jack you had it like use three slides to convince investors that mobile was gonna be important. my gosh.
Katie Wilson: I had a CEO in a meeting bust out a flip phone and was like, I'm not on a smartphone. So like mobile doesn't matter to me. And this is like two thousand eleven and we're all like, Okay,
Jackie: Yes, two thousand eleven, exactly.
Katie Wilson: but it does for most users. And he's like, Well, no one's ever gonna buy anything on a phone, so I'm not investing anybody there. He was wrong.
Jackie: yes, we both remember when. All right. Well, it kind of leads us into, you know, that kind of disconnect. Leads us into how interesting the timing is because we're also
Katie Wilson: Mm. Yes.
Jackie: seeing a lot of backlash against AI. recent polls show bipartisan support against the building of data centers. People are worried about the environment, worried about the environmental impact and electrical costs. There's also a recent one. Wired articles citing a backlash to AI Slap, which I've been talking about since 2024.
Katie Wilson: Yes.
Jackie: So what's new in this AI slap conversation is that many sites are actually moving to label and ban AI created content. That's interesting. And
Katie Wilson: And in the EU, they're requiring it now. We talked about that in a previous episode, but I talked to like another client or yesterday who was having to change a lot of their labeling or take AI off the EU ads.
Jackie: Yeah, did you see I just saw if you look at your LinkedIn post and you hit the
Katie Wilson: Yes.
Jackie: three dots on the top right corner and you can report it as being like AI slop.
Katie Wilson: Yes, you can report it as being s a I yeah. They're trying to clean it up a lot.
Jackie: Yeah, I haven't seen that. Interesting. So, in a recent Gallup poll, Americans' increased familiarity with generative AI coincides with negative attitudes about the technology. This is especially true for young people between 18 and 29, where almost half see generative AI as doing more harm than good. So this is a clear juxtaposition to growth of AI. most folks aren't. really trusting it to create content and there's a large backlash against its use. although according to the numbers, more and more people are users, many are feeling like they didn't consent to its widespread use. Yeah, I think it matters on what's what it's used for for sure.
Katie Wilson: Absolutely. I think like the the juxtaposition between, you know, older people feeling comfortable using it or people in business versus 18 to 29 year olds actually shying away from it. We've talked about that before when it comes to ads and click through rates. but yeah, I do think like that's a a big factor because that's a huge portion of the buying population. That's a huge like future people who are going to be working if they don't like AI and they have a bias against it for you know some very real reasons, that's problematic for these companies as they're trying to monetize. Yeah. So, you know, as we're talking through this, however you feel about that one billion milestone, you know, one thing's really clear. AI assistants aren't just a niche tool that only techies are using anymore. It's a daily habit for a huge chunk of the planet. And, you know, with dominance often comes this kind of backlash that we're seeing. and there seems to be a growing one amongst a lot of aspects of AI right now. And also what Powers AI like data centers. We're seeing a ton of that in the press and also in a lot of communities right now. You know, and when we think of products like, you know, that came before that had huge growth rates. You mentioned mobile before. Social media is another one, you know, where we saw that grow and have a lot of dominance. When you know, there there comes this cycle of pullback and backlash of like it's growing too fast. We don't understand it. we don't trust it. Actually, there's some harmfulness of this tool. So there's this push and pull always with high growth. and also there's always a need to pay the piper because these engineers and the people working on these tools, you know, they're not free. and all of these companies have invested a lot in engineering and resources, and their shareholders and investors are going to want to see a return on that investment sooner rather than later. So the real milestone will be that if these users, you know, can be retained. retained and loyal and trust the product to use it long term if they think it's useful to their everyday life and to their work and it becomes second nature, much like search has and much like a lot of tools have to people. But that, you know, is still TBD when it comes to the long term of AI adoption as well as the trust in AI, which we've talked about previously. They go really go hand in hand. So it's definitely a space we'll be watching in terms of loyalty and retention as well as the monetization space. I think especially going into Q four monetization is probably gonna be the number one thing I'm gonna be looking at to see how it's evolving.
Jackie: Well said. Yeah, yeah. Really interesting stuff there. So now it's time for our lighter segment. Love It or Leave It. Back to School Teen Edition.
Katie Wilson: Yes. I thought we both have kind of like preteen and teens. so and it's back to school time, people are using tech, so I've tied it to that.
Jackie: Yeah, I love this. All right. So first up, ChatGPT for Teens. Facing pressure to better protect minors, OpenAI on Tuesday released a new version of its popular chatbot with added safety features designed for use by kids between age 13 and 17. ChatGPT for teens promises to limit high risk conversations and alert adults about user prompts that include sensitive subject matters. It also includes certain guardrails for students. This comes on the heels of the company facing several lawsuits from parents and other tech companies are, you know, involved in these lawsuits also. So, Katie, what's your take on this?
Katie Wilson: Yes. you know, I'm happy they're doing it. I wouldn't encourage my teen to download it, but you know, I'm I'm happy that they're thinking about let's make a safer platform and something geared towards people of this age, with some guardrails in place, which is great. They probably should have had that from the beginning, but you know, and we're seeing a ton of backlash around teen usage in social media and teen uses in AI. So I do think it's wise for them to have this right now. We'll see how it plays out. I will say I just came back from back to school tonight, and several of the teachers in their code of conduct or their syllabus is like, we will be checking for AI use, no AI use for answers. So I do think there is this backlash and like really you know, trying to make it not accessible for for them to have open AI and Chat GPT on their tablets, etc. and then they might have some pre approved things. So You know, it's it's it's a give and take, much like I said before. I'm glad they're giving us something. We'll see how it takes, and we'll see how protective it it really is for teens.
Jackie: Yeah, agreed. I'm I'm glad they're thinking about safeguards. I don't know how much they're really implementing it behind the scenes, but because they have such a big platform, at least it's being talked about. So parents that maybe haven't thought about it are now considering it. So it's good that the messaging is out there. We'll
Katie Wilson: Yeah.
Jackie: just have to see how well this will work and you know what workarounds there are, because everyone finds a workaround. So
Katie Wilson: Totally.
Jackie: wait and see, but I'm glad it's being talked about.
Katie Wilson: All right, now for you know a funny, funny one, a TikTok trend we're seeing out there. So this TikTok trend of we had Chat GPT make us a script is having a moment. So teen friend groups are getting AI to write them a scene. and sometimes they'll give it context, sometimes they'll not. And then they'll have like how many people there are, how many parts, and they'll record it for TikTok, and it's usually really short and you know, a lot of deadpan acting, acting it out themselves. you know, reacting to the words that come out because sometimes it doesn't make any sense. Sometimes it's funny. Sometimes it's just, you know, we see a kind of like we would define AI slop. Like what is this even about? so love it or leave it, letting the AI write a bit as long as humans are still the ones performing it or for fun.
Jackie: Yeah, I mean I I mean, I'm kinda loving it. It feels like improv with an AI prompt and the humans are still doing the the the main creativity and the entertaining part. So I I love that. you know, when teens are having fun, it's it's like the best thing ever, right? And I've had conversations with my daughter about, know, when is AI okay and not okay on TikTok, right? And we both We we actually just talked about this last night that like we enjoy seeing a visual AI animation when it's
Katie Wilson: Yeah.
Jackie: kind of illustrating something that we can't that we don't have proof of from a historical event or something like that. And it's obviously AI and it's not trying to trick us that it's real. Yeah. Yeah.
Katie Wilson: labeled as such, like we were saying before, yeah.
Jackie: I we like that use of AI. So okay, fine. Love it here. What about you?
Katie Wilson: Yeah, I like I like that it's kind of making fun of the AI too. Cause like if you look at a lot of the examples,
Jackie: Yeah.
Katie Wilson: they're like kind of like, what the heck is this? Like it's not it's like so random. So I think like, you know, they're having fun with it, but they're not acting like it's this this script is good. Like the whole point is that AI wrote it and it's bad.
Jackie: Okay.
Katie Wilson: So I do think it kind of like goes to that like teens not trusting AI and thinking AI is kind of garbage, like like theme. Yeah.
Jackie: Yeah, they're making fun of it. You're right. Okay, I like that.
Katie Wilson: And I also think like you know, I have a little theater kid and she does improv and to your the improv thing, like, of course, like there's like an improv exercise where you say the same thing back and forth, but you have to do different like intonation of it or to make it ha mean different things, but the same sentence. And I feel like this is kind of like what that is, because you can say it one way and make it funny, or you can say it one way and make it scary. You can say it one way and make it sad. So if it's teaching kids like acting and improv and like creativity, I'm all about it.
Jackie: Yeah, that's a good point. Yeah, exactly. It's it comes down to if it's supporting our teens actually doing really fun, creative human work, but just like the support for that, that's kind of cool. So I'm with All right, last one. Getting ChatGPT to do your homework. Common sense media
Katie Wilson: Yes.
Jackie: recently released a report on AI and schoolwork. More than 63% of teens surveyed said they use AI to do their schoolwork. 25% say they use it as is, 31% rewrite it to sound like them, and 35% improve it with what they know. Among those who use AI, 38% say having it leads them to generate fewer of their own ideas. And 39% say they feel like they're missing out on learning when they use AI to complete assignments. So what do you think? Is AI changing the way teens learn and think?
Katie Wilson: Yeah, well, I definitely think it can be a shortcut, right? So for math, for example, if you need to find the answer quickly and you can't do it, you ChatGPT can give you the answer really quick and maybe even explain it to you. But then when you go to class and you have to take a test, if you don't actually understand the concept, you're not going to be able to do it. So it is kind of cheating you from learning that concept. which I think, you know, you know, I we had Cliff Notes back in the day, remember? You'd like read the Cliff Notes and be like, okay,
Jackie: Sure.
Katie Wilson: I know like the basics of the Great Gatsby, but you didn't actually read the Great Gatsby. So I think that's where what I equate it to. It's a bit of a shortcut. I think like teachers know that. And that's why I think like s I heard a lot last night at Back to School Night about in person projects, about doing the work in person, whiteboarding math things and like doing a lot hands on in the classroom to evaluate their skills versus just homework. So I really think like it's gonna teach them and maybe they're it'll actually push for more of this like show us how you did it versus just give us a quick answer. Which is what chat GPT can do well.
Jackie: Yeah, good points. It feels like it I guess it feels like the challenge isn't getting teens stop using AI overall. It's just teaching them how to use it without outsourcing their thinking, like you mentioned. So
Katie Wilson: Yeah, yeah. And I think like we we had a teacher describe it of like, you know, he's like, I've been talking to the kids about like these are the skills needed, you know, hireable skills in the a age of AI. It's complex thinking, it's this and this this. So it's not just like you know the answer to this question, but you have to show me how you did it, right? And y ChatGPT could outline that for you. Sure. You could watch a video, you could watch a tutorial on YouTube that explains a complex math problem. Now, if you've retained it, you can do can you do it yourself unassisted? that's gonna be the real test, and I don't think that'll change in how people are evaluated. Yeah. And then for if if those haven't seen our episode with Dr. Yi, we talk all about kids and AI tools and AI in schools. So definitely wanna plug that. That was a really great episode. if folks are interested in learning more about this topic. to wrap up, that's our episode, you know, really focusing on the billion user milestones, two very different roads to get there that we talked about, which is really interesting to see as the companies, you know, have different strategies and different plans to get there. A lot to think about, you know, next time you're using a Chat GPT or Gemini or Claude or any other AI assistant, you know, thinking about how often you use it and if you'll use it if it starts to be more monetized. So thanks for hanging with us today and l and diving a little deeper into this topic.
Jackie: so good doing this one with you today, Katie. And just a reminder, where can everyone find you?
Katie Wilson: Yeah, you can find me on LinkedIn at Katie Wilson or Sirius Moonlight Consulting, which is my business name. also on Instagram at Sirius Moonlight Consulting, and you can subscribe to my newsletter, Sales Isn't a Dirty Word, on Beehive. And how about you, Jackie?
Jackie: Yeah, please find me on LinkedIn at Jackie Gutierrez and on Instagram and TikTok at Business GrowthGal and follow Bop Boundaries at Bop Boundaries on Instagram, TikTok, YouTube, and LinkedIn. Thanks for listening and make sure to subscribe wherever you get your podcasts. We're available on all platforms and also YouTube. Bye, Katie.
Katie Wilson: Bye.
Jackie: Hey Katie, happy to be here.
Katie Wilson: Yes, me too. Okay, quick question for you, Jackie, related to our topic today. What now has more members than any religion except Christianity and Islam and didn't exist five years ago?
Jackie: Interesting question. Could it be Chat GPT?
Katie Wilson: Close, close and partially right. It's a tie, actually, right now, between Chat GPT and Google Gemini. both just crossed a billion users within days of each other. So today we're gonna get into what that milestone really means because the headlines don't really tell the full story. and we'll see some discrepancies there in measurement, as well as some backlash we're seeing with the prevalence of user growth in AI. And when we see a billion, really that's not a user base, that's like a whole population of people. Bigger than most countries, like we said before, bigger than most religions. So we're gonna get into that today and talk about the scope and growth of AI. So here's the headline everyone ran with, and we saw in a lot in the news over the last week Chat GPT and Gemini both hit a billion users this month. So, you know, that headline implies that they're basically tied in terms of usage, except that's not quite the full story. So we're gonna break down what those numbers really mean and how each of those companies got there and how they Put that out in the press. So Google actually announced this on August 11th, so very recently, that Gemini crossed a billion monthly active users. And coming from Google myself, a billion users is a big milestone for them. So anytime they would say we have nine products now, they have 10 products with a billion users. You know, when Gmail crossed a billion users, it was a big celebration. So that tends to be for the company a big anchor in terms of like this is a dominant product. And OpenAI's billion is a weekly active user milestone that they hit in July. And they publicly highlighted it on August 6th, just a few days before Google. so weekly is the harder bar to clear in terms of users. So it means more people are opening the app more often. Calling this a tie is kind of like comparing apples to oranges or comparing two runners that are tied because they will finish the race, but one ran a 5K and one ran a marathon, right? So Chat GPT has more usage by doing the weekly one. Google is obviously looking at monthly active users, which is just the way that they measure it, but it's not quite the same. But in the headlines, you know, they're definitely trying to portray them as the same.
Jackie: Yeah, I mean good good good point there, but you know, their their accomplishment with that billion dollar number is still pretty pretty impactful. I mean, it was just under a billion a few months ago, right?
Katie Wilson: Absolutely. So Gemini's really growing fast, probably faster than Chat GPT because it's been around less time. That's definitely the part that impressed me. Gemini, Gemini went from about 750 million monthly users earlier this year to 950 million in July and crossed a billion in August. So Google's own comparison is that Gmail took about 14 years to reach that scale. And Gemini did it in under one year. So that's a big difference and it shows really high growth. But you might be asking, How, since Chat GPT had a head start, you know, how is Google counting usage? So I think that's really important. And also how are they integrating Gemini into their other products and are they counting that? So it's two different paths, the same number. You know, Chat GPT grew organically. People chose to go and download it, chose to go and use the web output. This was a new product, a new URL, a new, you know, destination for people to go to. So in some ways that's a little harder from you know a marketing
Jackie: Yeah.
Katie Wilson: standpoint or a growth standpoint. Gemini got there through organic growth, plus I would say a serious assist from being the top default assistant baked into Android phones, right? So Google, you know, a lot of people think iPhones and they're very dominant, yes, but Android has a huge share of market. And if Gemini is the down downloadable already on your phone, AI assistant, you're gonna start using it a lot more. so it's that difference, really. It's like the difference between earthing an audience like ChatGPT had to, and you know, some people might say being handed one on the Google side because they're integrating it with their other products. You know, both count, they might not mean the same thing to to people in terms of the how fast it grow grew. You know, it's worth noting too, Gemini is also integrated into organic search as AI mode. When you see AI mode with Google. But Google is actually saying that number is not what they're counting. They're counting standalone Gemini use. But I would argue as a good user of Google products, you know, even now on my Chrome tab, there's an Ask Gemini. Like that would be a standalone use because I have to click on that button and then it takes me to Gemini. But Gemini is being promoted across all of their products all the time. So it does give them a little bit of a heads up in terms of integration, you know, but that's a wise thing to do from a business standpoint. I'm not saying
Jackie: Course.
Katie Wilson: it's cheating. It's a wise thing to do. but it's just a different metric.
Jackie: Yeah, it's interesting everything you point out there. I think that they obviously had an advantage because they had brand trust and
Katie Wilson: Totally.
Jackie: their products are already out there. So they just integrated these features that directed the user to Gemini. So and it it's not cheating. they're
Katie Wilson: Yeah.
Jackie: just a legacy brand that exists and they integrate it. Unlike some other software where they're forcing us to use these AI features
Katie Wilson: Yes.
Jackie: that we don't really want, it seems like they're doing it pretty successfully, right?
Katie Wilson: Yeah, totally. They're giving you the option. Like I even see it in Gmail. It's like, do you want a AI summary of this email? And sometimes it's like, sure, I do actually. This is a very long thread. I appreciate it.
Jackie: Yeah, yeah. So with all that, there's a marketing angle worth, you know,
Katie Wilson: Absolutely.
Jackie: talking about. Google's announcement of this billion users landed right before their made by Google hardware event. That timing isn't an accident. It's real, genuinely fast climb and it's a number picked in time to make the biggest possible splash next to a competitor's number. wonder how they know that chat I mean.
Katie Wilson: Well Chat GPT announced it first, like on they said on LinkedIn. Yeah. Yeah. They moved fast. They probably were like,
Jackie: I know, but how did Google know the timing? I guess they move fast. They just move really fast. Yeah, yeah, yeah.
Katie Wilson: Hey, we're close to a billion two. Announce it at this event. Yeah.
Jackie: Yeah, you're right. Okay. Then there's the reality of active users versus returning users that sometimes these, you know, brands aren't really talking about. And
Katie Wilson: Yeah.
Jackie: truly defining and segmenting the mix of casual single visit drop-ins with high frequency loyalists could give us a real, you know, versus those high frequency loyalists could give us a real picture of what's really going on with growth. I mean, these big billion numbers are like super impressive, but you gotta dig into it a little bit more. And in
Katie Wilson: solo
Jackie: and in many cases, true returning users form habits that represent a smaller fraction of some of those big numbers that we're seeing.
Katie Wilson: Yeah, yeah. This is always the case when people are like, we want to get to X users. as, you know, a consultant and also, you know, as you know, a provider of of some of some of these folks when I when I was working at Google, you want to ask, but like what's the secondary metrics? Once we hit that, is it a one-term use? We always talked about lifetime value, you know, and I know from a marketing standpoint you're looking at that too. What you really care about is return users. You care about those power users, you care about how many times they're coming back, how often, you care about if they're paid versus free users. Right. So these are all like these
Jackie: Definitely.
Katie Wilson: secondary metrics that I really think we'll be able we'll be able to see coming forward. That's not what they're going to put out there. It's not the big splashy number, but that's the kind of stuff like I'm interested in hearing about to compare the two.
Jackie: Yeah.
Katie Wilson: but one thing that's clear, you know, there's a real behavior shift happening for users. So Google said 63% of Gemini's monthly users are interacting by voice. People are turning on their camera or sharing their screen and asking AI to look at what they're looking at. Or they might be asking a question directly into their phone. so we're really past that error of typing like a carefully crafted prompt into the box. A billion people are really just talking to the phone like it's a person, at least from the Google side, what they're reporting, which we have talked about, you know, the harmfulness of on this podcast before, of where we're, you know, in terms of psychology and effects of feeling that kind of closeness with an AI tool. talking to it and having a relationship versus typing is very different psychologically for people. So that's an interesting thing I thought that they pointed out and they wanted to highlight, you know, as as as a a metric.
Jackie: Yeah, totally. Good point. so both both of these brands, companies, have their billion. So what happens next? So the race changes shape now. Once you've got the users, the pressure shifts to monetization. OpenAI has already been expanding ads inside ChatGPT and more markets. I'm seeing more of them for sure. so the free helpful assistant era doesn't disappear, but I'd expect it to get a lot more commercial. A lot faster, you know, than people might be ready for.
Katie Wilson: Absolutely. I think you know, more people now use Chat GPT or Gemini every week than live in almost any country on earth. so that's not really a tech story anymore. It's a culture shifting story, like of of users' behavior. And if you're a business owner, a salesperson, a creator, you know, a customer, you have to have a plan for AI assistant because you know that people are going to be using it. and you need to build trust and make sure your brand is showing up in these assistants too. It's changing how people research. It's changing how they compare you to competitors and how they expect to be talked to. We talked about those results and how that's changing. and also really realizing monetization is coming. We're getting into Q4, which is like a really big profitable time for a lot of retailers and a lot of businesses. How is AI overviews and AI in search going to change behaviors for users and maybe change your investment in terms of ads? That's a really big question a lot of my clients have been asking me lately. Now Chat GPT and Gemini have this large loyal audience of this size. You know, these companies are going to be expected to start turning a profit on this tool very soon. And their investors and shareholders are going to be saying, okay, that's great, a billion, but how much are we making off this? What's the ad revenue? Where are we projecting that to be in five years, 10 years? So, you know, it's it's kind of like when search was starting and or mobile, the shift to mobile was a big one as well, where it quickly turns to monetization and those requirements get very hard to compete with. So I totally feel in Q four we're gonna be seeing a lot more ads.
Jackie: You're just giving me a fever dream there of back in like two thousand eleven
Katie Wilson: Yeah.
Jackie: your pitch jack you had it like use three slides to convince investors that mobile was gonna be important. my gosh.
Katie Wilson: I had a CEO in a meeting bust out a flip phone and was like, I'm not on a smartphone. So like mobile doesn't matter to me. And this is like two thousand eleven and we're all like, Okay,
Jackie: Yes, two thousand eleven, exactly.
Katie Wilson: but it does for most users. And he's like, Well, no one's ever gonna buy anything on a phone, so I'm not investing anybody there. He was wrong.
Jackie: yes, we both remember when. All right. Well, it kind of leads us into, you know, that kind of disconnect. Leads us into how interesting the timing is because we're also
Katie Wilson: Mm. Yes.
Jackie: seeing a lot of backlash against AI. recent polls show bipartisan support against the building of data centers. People are worried about the environment, worried about the environmental impact and electrical costs. There's also a recent one. Wired articles citing a backlash to AI Slap, which I've been talking about since 2024.
Katie Wilson: Yes.
Jackie: So what's new in this AI slap conversation is that many sites are actually moving to label and ban AI created content. That's interesting. And
Katie Wilson: And in the EU, they're requiring it now. We talked about that in a previous episode, but I talked to like another client or yesterday who was having to change a lot of their labeling or take AI off the EU ads.
Jackie: Yeah, did you see I just saw if you look at your LinkedIn post and you hit the
Katie Wilson: Yes.
Jackie: three dots on the top right corner and you can report it as being like AI slop.
Katie Wilson: Yes, you can report it as being s a I yeah. They're trying to clean it up a lot.
Jackie: Yeah, I haven't seen that. Interesting. So, in a recent Gallup poll, Americans' increased familiarity with generative AI coincides with negative attitudes about the technology. This is especially true for young people between 18 and 29, where almost half see generative AI as doing more harm than good. So this is a clear juxtaposition to growth of AI. most folks aren't. really trusting it to create content and there's a large backlash against its use. although according to the numbers, more and more people are users, many are feeling like they didn't consent to its widespread use. Yeah, I think it matters on what's what it's used for for sure.
Katie Wilson: Absolutely. I think like the the juxtaposition between, you know, older people feeling comfortable using it or people in business versus 18 to 29 year olds actually shying away from it. We've talked about that before when it comes to ads and click through rates. but yeah, I do think like that's a a big factor because that's a huge portion of the buying population. That's a huge like future people who are going to be working if they don't like AI and they have a bias against it for you know some very real reasons, that's problematic for these companies as they're trying to monetize. Yeah. So, you know, as we're talking through this, however you feel about that one billion milestone, you know, one thing's really clear. AI assistants aren't just a niche tool that only techies are using anymore. It's a daily habit for a huge chunk of the planet. And, you know, with dominance often comes this kind of backlash that we're seeing. and there seems to be a growing one amongst a lot of aspects of AI right now. And also what Powers AI like data centers. We're seeing a ton of that in the press and also in a lot of communities right now. You know, and when we think of products like, you know, that came before that had huge growth rates. You mentioned mobile before. Social media is another one, you know, where we saw that grow and have a lot of dominance. When you know, there there comes this cycle of pullback and backlash of like it's growing too fast. We don't understand it. we don't trust it. Actually, there's some harmfulness of this tool. So there's this push and pull always with high growth. and also there's always a need to pay the piper because these engineers and the people working on these tools, you know, they're not free. and all of these companies have invested a lot in engineering and resources, and their shareholders and investors are going to want to see a return on that investment sooner rather than later. So the real milestone will be that if these users, you know, can be retained. retained and loyal and trust the product to use it long term if they think it's useful to their everyday life and to their work and it becomes second nature, much like search has and much like a lot of tools have to people. But that, you know, is still TBD when it comes to the long term of AI adoption as well as the trust in AI, which we've talked about previously. They go really go hand in hand. So it's definitely a space we'll be watching in terms of loyalty and retention as well as the monetization space. I think especially going into Q four monetization is probably gonna be the number one thing I'm gonna be looking at to see how it's evolving.
Jackie: Well said. Yeah, yeah. Really interesting stuff there. So now it's time for our lighter segment. Love It or Leave It. Back to School Teen Edition.
Katie Wilson: Yes. I thought we both have kind of like preteen and teens. so and it's back to school time, people are using tech, so I've tied it to that.
Jackie: Yeah, I love this. All right. So first up, ChatGPT for Teens. Facing pressure to better protect minors, OpenAI on Tuesday released a new version of its popular chatbot with added safety features designed for use by kids between age 13 and 17. ChatGPT for teens promises to limit high risk conversations and alert adults about user prompts that include sensitive subject matters. It also includes certain guardrails for students. This comes on the heels of the company facing several lawsuits from parents and other tech companies are, you know, involved in these lawsuits also. So, Katie, what's your take on this?
Katie Wilson: Yes. you know, I'm happy they're doing it. I wouldn't encourage my teen to download it, but you know, I'm I'm happy that they're thinking about let's make a safer platform and something geared towards people of this age, with some guardrails in place, which is great. They probably should have had that from the beginning, but you know, and we're seeing a ton of backlash around teen usage in social media and teen uses in AI. So I do think it's wise for them to have this right now. We'll see how it plays out. I will say I just came back from back to school tonight, and several of the teachers in their code of conduct or their syllabus is like, we will be checking for AI use, no AI use for answers. So I do think there is this backlash and like really you know, trying to make it not accessible for for them to have open AI and Chat GPT on their tablets, etc. and then they might have some pre approved things. So You know, it's it's it's a give and take, much like I said before. I'm glad they're giving us something. We'll see how it takes, and we'll see how protective it it really is for teens.
Jackie: Yeah, agreed. I'm I'm glad they're thinking about safeguards. I don't know how much they're really implementing it behind the scenes, but because they have such a big platform, at least it's being talked about. So parents that maybe haven't thought about it are now considering it. So it's good that the messaging is out there. We'll
Katie Wilson: Yeah.
Jackie: just have to see how well this will work and you know what workarounds there are, because everyone finds a workaround. So
Katie Wilson: Totally.
Jackie: wait and see, but I'm glad it's being talked about.
Katie Wilson: All right, now for you know a funny, funny one, a TikTok trend we're seeing out there. So this TikTok trend of we had Chat GPT make us a script is having a moment. So teen friend groups are getting AI to write them a scene. and sometimes they'll give it context, sometimes they'll not. And then they'll have like how many people there are, how many parts, and they'll record it for TikTok, and it's usually really short and you know, a lot of deadpan acting, acting it out themselves. you know, reacting to the words that come out because sometimes it doesn't make any sense. Sometimes it's funny. Sometimes it's just, you know, we see a kind of like we would define AI slop. Like what is this even about? so love it or leave it, letting the AI write a bit as long as humans are still the ones performing it or for fun.
Jackie: Yeah, I mean I I mean, I'm kinda loving it. It feels like improv with an AI prompt and the humans are still doing the the the main creativity and the entertaining part. So I I love that. you know, when teens are having fun, it's it's like the best thing ever, right? And I've had conversations with my daughter about, know, when is AI okay and not okay on TikTok, right? And we both We we actually just talked about this last night that like we enjoy seeing a visual AI animation when it's
Katie Wilson: Yeah.
Jackie: kind of illustrating something that we can't that we don't have proof of from a historical event or something like that. And it's obviously AI and it's not trying to trick us that it's real. Yeah. Yeah.
Katie Wilson: labeled as such, like we were saying before, yeah.
Jackie: I we like that use of AI. So okay, fine. Love it here. What about you?
Katie Wilson: Yeah, I like I like that it's kind of making fun of the AI too. Cause like if you look at a lot of the examples,
Jackie: Yeah.
Katie Wilson: they're like kind of like, what the heck is this? Like it's not it's like so random. So I think like, you know, they're having fun with it, but they're not acting like it's this this script is good. Like the whole point is that AI wrote it and it's bad.
Jackie: Okay.
Katie Wilson: So I do think it kind of like goes to that like teens not trusting AI and thinking AI is kind of garbage, like like theme. Yeah.
Jackie: Yeah, they're making fun of it. You're right. Okay, I like that.
Katie Wilson: And I also think like you know, I have a little theater kid and she does improv and to your the improv thing, like, of course, like there's like an improv exercise where you say the same thing back and forth, but you have to do different like intonation of it or to make it ha mean different things, but the same sentence. And I feel like this is kind of like what that is, because you can say it one way and make it funny, or you can say it one way and make it scary. You can say it one way and make it sad. So if it's teaching kids like acting and improv and like creativity, I'm all about it.
Jackie: Yeah, that's a good point. Yeah, exactly. It's it comes down to if it's supporting our teens actually doing really fun, creative human work, but just like the support for that, that's kind of cool. So I'm with All right, last one. Getting ChatGPT to do your homework. Common sense media
Katie Wilson: Yes.
Jackie: recently released a report on AI and schoolwork. More than 63% of teens surveyed said they use AI to do their schoolwork. 25% say they use it as is, 31% rewrite it to sound like them, and 35% improve it with what they know. Among those who use AI, 38% say having it leads them to generate fewer of their own ideas. And 39% say they feel like they're missing out on learning when they use AI to complete assignments. So what do you think? Is AI changing the way teens learn and think?
Katie Wilson: Yeah, well, I definitely think it can be a shortcut, right? So for math, for example, if you need to find the answer quickly and you can't do it, you ChatGPT can give you the answer really quick and maybe even explain it to you. But then when you go to class and you have to take a test, if you don't actually understand the concept, you're not going to be able to do it. So it is kind of cheating you from learning that concept. which I think, you know, you know, I we had Cliff Notes back in the day, remember? You'd like read the Cliff Notes and be like, okay,
Jackie: Sure.
Katie Wilson: I know like the basics of the Great Gatsby, but you didn't actually read the Great Gatsby. So I think that's where what I equate it to. It's a bit of a shortcut. I think like teachers know that. And that's why I think like s I heard a lot last night at Back to School Night about in person projects, about doing the work in person, whiteboarding math things and like doing a lot hands on in the classroom to evaluate their skills versus just homework. So I really think like it's gonna teach them and maybe they're it'll actually push for more of this like show us how you did it versus just give us a quick answer. Which is what chat GPT can do well.
Jackie: Yeah, good points. It feels like it I guess it feels like the challenge isn't getting teens stop using AI overall. It's just teaching them how to use it without outsourcing their thinking, like you mentioned. So
Katie Wilson: Yeah, yeah. And I think like we we had a teacher describe it of like, you know, he's like, I've been talking to the kids about like these are the skills needed, you know, hireable skills in the a age of AI. It's complex thinking, it's this and this this. So it's not just like you know the answer to this question, but you have to show me how you did it, right? And y ChatGPT could outline that for you. Sure. You could watch a video, you could watch a tutorial on YouTube that explains a complex math problem. Now, if you've retained it, you can do can you do it yourself unassisted? that's gonna be the real test, and I don't think that'll change in how people are evaluated. Yeah. And then for if if those haven't seen our episode with Dr. Yi, we talk all about kids and AI tools and AI in schools. So definitely wanna plug that. That was a really great episode. if folks are interested in learning more about this topic. to wrap up, that's our episode, you know, really focusing on the billion user milestones, two very different roads to get there that we talked about, which is really interesting to see as the companies, you know, have different strategies and different plans to get there. A lot to think about, you know, next time you're using a Chat GPT or Gemini or Claude or any other AI assistant, you know, thinking about how often you use it and if you'll use it if it starts to be more monetized. So thanks for hanging with us today and l and diving a little deeper into this topic.
Jackie: so good doing this one with you today, Katie. And just a reminder, where can everyone find you?
Katie Wilson: Yeah, you can find me on LinkedIn at Katie Wilson or Sirius Moonlight Consulting, which is my business name. also on Instagram at Sirius Moonlight Consulting, and you can subscribe to my newsletter, Sales Isn't a Dirty Word, on Beehive. And how about you, Jackie?
Jackie: Yeah, please find me on LinkedIn at Jackie Gutierrez and on Instagram and TikTok at Business GrowthGal and follow Bop Boundaries at Bop Boundaries on Instagram, TikTok, YouTube, and LinkedIn. Thanks for listening and make sure to subscribe wherever you get your podcasts. We're available on all platforms and also YouTube. Bye, Katie.
Katie Wilson: Bye.
