Blue 0:00
Hey what's up everybody, it's your boy blue. And on today's episode of Blue dope, have a stand up comedian in the building that created a web series that turned into this bigger thing that show Top picked up. Right. And he is here today to speak to us about none other than Dan Perlman. Flatbush misdemeanors.
Dan Perlman 0:33
What's going on, man?
Blue 0:34
I'm good. How's everything? Good, man? Yeah. So I mean, you're in Brooklyn. Yes. How much like home does Brooklyn fields you now after even having a show based in Brooklyn?
Dan Perlman 0:45
I mean, probably more. So more. So now because the you know, I feel like that's like the one or two zip codes I might get recognized. codes in the world. I feel like you're likely to to have seen the thing. But yeah, I mean, I think that that was one of the biggest things is we made this show it was called Flatbush misdemeanors, and we made it as a web series initially, and then became a common it was a comedy short and then became a Comedy Series for Showtime and people in Flatbush and people in Brooklyn liking it that meant the most because they're the people most likely to say if they don't like a thing you know I'm a extremely chilled they're gonna make it no and there's no they're not going to be just polite and they're not gonna be you know, have southern etiquette or anything they're gonna say I don't fuck with that. I don't like it at all. And so that meant a lot that they liked it. Yeah. Do
Blue 1:40
you feel like the honorary Western Nina
Dan Perlman 1:47
but I'm not here to get I think as a
Blue 1:49
word, you know, got it. Got it. I mean, even for myself, so I am Trinidadian, both my parents and Trinidad and I lived in Flatbush for a few years as a kid, one of the many parts of Brooklyn I lived in. And even for me, I didn't know what to expect from the show. And then as soon I think it was the first episode, I saw the Trinidadian Roti shop. And I was like, cool, we got something authentic. Yeah. Because you can easily well with the jerk chicken spot, and that would have just been short. So
Dan Perlman 2:12
I think I think in an early version of the script, it might have just been like, a standard jerk chickens. And then as we're writing the full thing, it slowly changed. But that was also just really looking out of having people in the room, like in the writers room and on the crew and stuff who are from Brooklyn from Flatbush, like born and raised who could say, like music supervisor of like, this is the kind of music you would hear in the road to show so it would just feel like to all the details, you know,
Blue 2:42
did you eat Rosie in the process? Oh, yeah. Well, making sure. But I definitely do want to start off with you. So you're not originally from Brooklyn, where are you from? What was your childhood? Like? What was the family dynamic? The family dynamic dynamic? Yes.
Dan Perlman 2:58
I'm from I'm from Manhattan. So from from New York and and then have lived in like you have lived in few different neighborhoods lived in Ridgewood, Queens and Astoria, Queens and then Flatbush and so the family dynamic. I don't know, my parents were together until they weren't and then had a younger sister. And, but always felt the felt a good amount of support from them about like, doing creative stuff. I think it was as long as I was working hard, I felt like they support if I was just sitting around, then they would not have been okay. But the fact that I was constantly and that was important motivation to keep going, you know, keep working at it. Because without that, then it stops being cool. But treating it like a job from the beginning helped it become one you know,
Blue 3:46
so I mean, growing up like when did you realize you want to be in film like did you go to film school, anything like that?
Dan Perlman 3:52
I didn't go to film school. I always kind of wanted to do it. But I didn't know if I would have the courage. So I went to I went to school in Chicago and I studied education. So like I play a teacher exactly right? Because that's so that version of me on flat pushes, who I think I would have been if I didn't have the courage to do comedy was like, I would have been a bad teacher who was like trying but just failing the kids constantly. So I was like, that's like, what's the worst version of me? That was the plan with a pill addiction and everything just to like with the xanies get through the day. Exactly. So no, but then all my friends were filming. So we made a lot of made friends there. And we made a lot of terrible sketches. And we would write would write like, multiple sketches a week and then film them on the weekend and most of them were awful, you know, but you learn the discipline of just continuing to do it over and over and over again. So that's where I developed that and then once I finished school and then came back to New York, then it was like, Okay, I know how to put in the work now and now it's just put your head down to just be bad for years and just inch toward We're just getting better, you know, try to get a little less bad. Consistently, you know,
Blue 5:04
there you go. And so you have something good for sure. Yeah. So how did Chicago contrast for you just being from New York? And what kind of flavor did you get from Chicago from being there?
Dan Perlman 5:14
Well, it's weird, because when you're from you're from New York, yeah. So like, you know, when you go anywhere else, it feels like, Oh, this is like, small, even though it's a huge city, it still feels like, Oh, this is cool, like a little slower pace. You know, it feels like you're going to, you're like, leaving something that feels more intense or whatever. So but I liked I didn't want to be in the middle of nowhere, you know, so I liked being like, in a city, and it's a really good city for like, you know, arts and just like creating stuff. I feel like, it's like, those are my favorite audience to go and do stand up for on the road outside of New York, because it's like, they have they're smart, but not like, you know, but not like up their own ass. Not like, Yup, yes, she there, they get it and they're down for whatever kind of shit. They're down for weirdness. They're down for dumb shit. You know, it feels like they're really just there to have fun, you know? So you got to be free. Yeah, it feels it feels like a very, also, there is something nice about, about doing shit, like away from everybody you grew up with, you know what I mean? Like, kind of going somewhere else. And you feel a little more free to like nobody. Because initially when I started, I was like, I don't want anybody I know to be in the audience. I don't want anybody. Like, I would rather just try for strangers, instead of like, just having all my friends come out and be like, what does this guy think he's doing? You know what I mean? I would rather it just be people I'm never gonna see again. So I felt I felt very free. And I felt like, just able to try shit there, which I think is one of the most important things when you're starting, you know, like,
Blue 6:52
what made you have the courage enough to just go up for that first time? Was it the fact that you were in this space where no one knew you? That's exactly all it was.
Dan Perlman 7:01
I think that helped. I think that definitely helped. And then I think it was, I mean, I've been writing jokes for years. And I'd been like, you know, just sort of, you know, I would just write jokes in my notebook and just, like, hide them and not do anything with them. And then it was like, just wanting to try it. And I think people coming up to me, like, individually, and being like, hey, that was funny, or like, Hey, that was good. You just look for these little signs of encouragement and positive reinforcement, you know? So I think that was it. But I think it was also it's just like, wanting to be good at it and ship chipping away at it. The process is fun. Yeah. Because if not, then it's just gonna be terrible. Like, if you're, if you're going in thinking, like, somebody's going to discover me, and then I'll be a big sale, like, you're just gonna want to kill yourself, because that's just not how it thing's gonna go. You know, it's like, oh, this is fun to work at this thing and feel like you're gradually getting better, which you're more likely to feel at the beginning. Because how, how much better you get you start out so bad, you know what I mean? Not knowing what you're doing, that you can feel the growth moreso than when you get to this place where you kind of know you're doing that it starts to feel more incremental, you know,
Blue 8:09
you cringe at your videos. Oh,
Dan Perlman 8:11
I couldn't watch them. Yeah, well, I have a hard time watching myself in general, because I know, I see all the mistakes that I made. And I feel that with the show, also, like, it's very tough for me, I remember being at the premiere, where they showed the first two episodes, and it was for like an audience. And it was nice, but I was just like, I can't do this again. Because I've seen, I've seen every cut so many times. You see it in the script, you see it on set, and the editor is cutting directors who shot this a little better. Yeah, you're like, man, what, even beyond my face. But then it's still a question of like, Man, I could have taken another second off here. Or like, why did we do that? That you you just see, it's just a cut. You can't fix that, you know what I mean? So that's what's tough about it. And it's nice, other people can enjoy it. But once once it's done, I needed to like, go, and I felt that also with with old standard videos, it's even more intense, because it's just, you know, I can look at the show. And even if I cringe at myself, I'm like, oh, Kareem is being funny. You know what I made that shit. But as the editor asked you, then it's like, there's nothing else to look at. Except where you fall short, you know?
Blue 9:25
So now, comedian, right? Wanting to potentially be a teacher at some point, right? Yeah. Were you also thinking, hey, I want to do a TV show throughout this process growing up?
Dan Perlman 9:37
Sure. Yeah, but but I didn't know. I didn't know if I could but yeah, I totally wanted to. Yeah, so
Blue 9:44
what were there certain comedians, where you said, I want to be like them?
Dan Perlman 9:48
Oh, yeah. I mean, all those I mean, well, it's like, when you're young. Like you feel like I just you know about the most famous comedians you know about Chris Rock, you know about sign fell do you know about Cosby, you know about like all of these guys like the most famous guys, but it also becomes a big thing when you learn about like it, especially being in New York, when you learn about like live comedy, we could go to like, the cellar and places like that, where you can see stand up be like, Oh, they're just some guys that do it that are not like, incredibly famous, and that makes it feel more attainable, because you're like, Oh, they're just, they're just people that do this, you know? And that feels more error. This guy, Greg Geraldo, who was like a great, great comedian who died like 10 years ago. But he was like a New York guy, like a Queens guy. And he was super smart, but also could be silly and dumb. And I just loved his shit so much. And that was so cool. Inspiring to be like, oh, yeah, there's, there's just like, some dude who's not like the most famous guy in the world. It's like an awesome comedian. But that was like, hugely influential, and then watching all those like old sitcoms, I would watch Nick at Night, and all those old gray comedies. And I feel like that's what also I was like, Man, that would be like, awesome to do a thing like that to do like, comedies that also have like, a little bit of heart a little bit and are able to, like, hit on issues without like, feeling like you're doing a very special episode about this serious topic. So got it. Totally. Yeah.
Blue 11:17
Now, I mean, I'm gonna assume that flatfish wasn't your first web series that you ever even penned. Was there something before this where you're like, I think this might be the one.
Dan Perlman 11:28
Well, yeah, I mean, well, so you just kind of make a lot of stuff because you don't know what's going to kind of catch on but but yeah, I mean, well, the first pilot I ever sold was an animated show. I did a pilot for Fox. And it was animated show, it was called that's my bus was about a city bus driver, okay. And named Bill Russell was very sensitive to not wanting to be mistaken for a basketball player. But he had a wife who was separated from and an 11 year old son and they were like the passengers on the bus that were like the, you know, recurring like, you know, cheers typecast that you just see. So I thought that was so fun.
Blue 12:08
Sounds like a good idea.
Dan Perlman 12:10
Yeah. We did it. We did a pilot. We had a great cast, we have Regina King. Wow. Dante Bosco and your Gary Anthony Williams. Wow, amazing. Wow, you see, and I didn't know. And I wasn't even I wasn't in it. I had no part or anything. But I was just like, but it was so helpful. Because I got to learn about that whole process. You know, you learn every step of like art as you read the thing, you work with the studio and network and go through all these steps and hurdles. And then you also learn like, oh, it could be taken away like that. But you also, you just get better at figuring out this is how I collaborate with these people. And this is how you develop a thing. And so once flappers came along, I was like, Okay, I learned so much more. And so I feel like without that experience, I wouldn't have been able to, like, get Flatbush to the point where it got, you know, because you just you just learn a little more every time. But yeah, I still stand by that.
Blue 13:06
Sounds like a great idea.
Dan Perlman 13:09
Because it's like moving but also, but also there's some like grounded ness to it. I don't know. Yeah,
Blue 13:15
you liked the city life as well.
Dan Perlman 13:19
Because I was like, Oh, well, we had magic school bus. But it was only school bus base. Yes. Have a nice like city bus. You could keep it surprising, but then you just see the same people. But yeah, I mean, you learn but again, every time you learn a little more, but also, that was a big reason why I wanted to do like flat Bush as a web series. And we did that because it was like, you, when you make a pilot for a network, you go through all the steps and hurdles, and you, you know, slowly clear all these steps. But then if it doesn't go to series, nobody gets to see the thing. And so it was a thing where it's like, alright, if we do the web series, and just throw it online, even if 50 people see it, it's a thing and it exists. So it's out there and it's not it's not potentially all for nothing, you know, in terms of anybody getting to like see the finished product, you know, so
Blue 14:08
in that way would you say TVs kind of like music nowadays, because I feel like especially with a&r is being removed from music there's almost this feel of the artists has to kind of show that they have an audience that it could be something that they could just magnify if they're on a bigger label. Has TV kind of turned into that as well. From your point of view,
Dan Perlman 14:28
I think well, well it's weird because like when we made his web series like it's not like I think there are some where it's like wow, that got like I think like I think like Issa Rae's web series before she did insecure, I think she got like a lot of views and I think there was a big audience. We did not have that. But we did have was it started doing well in film festivals. We started sending it to film festivals and it would play in these like blocks of narrative, short films. And I don't know if you've ever seen like short films like narrative ones there. All tragic, they're all incredibly sad. It's people showing they could make, they shouldn't be able to make features. And they're trying to make things that are important. So it's always about, it's always about a burn victim or a baby who dies or like, it's all incredibly sad. And then we just had a comedy. So yeah, would always do well in the room, it would never win the thing, usually. Yeah. Because they would give that to something that was like, you know, faux serious or whatever. But it would just kill and so that got it. Momentum. So I think even if you can't get an audience, what you want is like, some external recognition of this is good. Because once somebody says it's good, then other people feel like they have permission to say it's good. So it's just like, it's just finding the cosign. Yeah, that weird stamp of approval from someone or something. At some point, which I think I think that was hugely helpful for it. Yeah.
Blue 15:55
So I mean, going through these film festivals, did you then still have to set up a pitch for the show? Did someone from Showtime contact you?
Dan Perlman 16:01
No, no, we still set up a pitch. Well, first, I went to production companies. So we had some offers. And then we started working with a production company, and then develop to the pitch for, for networks, and then went in and was like, This is what we would want to do with it. And this is, but the fact that we made the web series, that was hugely helpful for them, because the biggest hurdle with all that shit is people, the execs like, they can't really, they don't really know laws. Yeah, they can't really imagine it. They're like, I don't know, if I see it, there's so much pressure on you to do a little song and dance in the room. But when the thing is made, they're already they've already been like, Oh, I see it. You know, I see. You guys, I see the world, I see where the comedy could be. And so they've already bought in, you know, so that was without that. It doesn't, it doesn't get greenlit because it just it just given them so much in terms of evidence of like, oh, I can imagine this. I can see these guys. Like it's already I already know, it's funny, God. And the biggest question is like, Where does the comedy come in? And if they see that, and know that it's clear, that's huge. Yeah.
Blue 17:06
So I mean, my shows definitely kind of like, almost like a how to, so we can kind of take a step back to the shortage itself. Yeah, I want to understand what even that process is like, and what does a real, like a good quote unquote, pitch look like when it comes to TV?
Dan Perlman 17:22
Yeah, I think the big the biggest thing is, like understanding like, Who are the characters and like, what kind of what kind of like journey they're going to go on? You know, because I think, you know, I think sometimes it's like, you know, when people will, like, tell me an idea or something, it's like, they think of a world or whatever they're like, alright, we we run a diner or something. It's like, okay, that's fine. But like, who are we looking at, like, concretely, who are we looking at? And what is the cause there was this good advice I read from some writer once and he was like, people always pitch me movies, or ideas. And they're like, oh, it's about a car chase, or it's about, you know, an apocalypse or whatever. And he's like, tell me the story in terms of a relationship. Because at the end of the day, every movie every show everything, at the core, there's some it doesn't have to be romantic, but it's like, about a father son. It's about like, two siblings, it's about two friends or whatever, like, and sometimes a few things within that. But it's like, once you understand those that it's like, okay, now I can see, this is the journey, these two are gonna go on, we're gonna have to, like, come together and run this place, or whatever. And here's who's going to be against us. And here's where the comedy could come in between the three of us. And so, understanding those, it's called an arc like season arc, and character arc, like, you know, it'll be like, so we knew like in Flatbush, for example, it's like you have Dan and Kevin. So okay, they're living together. Kevin is staying on Dan's couch. Right. Okay. That's the dynamic up top. And then we knew like, okay, drew the character of drew that Hassan Johnson plays, like, he's gonna come in, and he's gonna ruin your lives. It's tornado, right? That not only like, yeah, like uproots our lives, but like, now, he's going to come between our different takes on on Drew as like a presence in our lives is going to fuck up our dynamic and our friendship. So it's like, figuring that out that it's like, okay, that's like the conflict. And that's where the comedy comes in. And then a lot of the other stuff of just like, then ultimately, it's like, okay, you could have my guy work in a bike shop or you could have him work at a deli. It doesn't matter. Like, like, that's all kind of like window dressing. But understanding that's the core. These are the key character dynamics that that's stepdad really wants to be my stepdad like, these are the core, like character dynamics, and these are how the worlds can kind of like intersect. Got it?
Blue 19:55
And I mean, when you're going to even these production houses, are you going in and saying, Hey, I need xx budget to do this, like, is that part of the pitch at a certain point?
Dan Perlman 20:03
Not really. But it is an advantage. I do think and this should be like inspiring to like a lot of to creatives and people aspiring to do creative stuff is when you make stuff yourself and show that you can make something yourself for very cheap. Yeah, that's a good thing. Like that's because the cheaper you are, the more likely they are to leave you alone. Because you're if you're not, if for Game of Thrones, they have to account for every dollar, it's a Marvel movies, they have to account for every dollar because they're putting $500 million dollars into the movie, so they can't lose, they need to know, they're gonna make $10 trillion on it. Got it, because they're putting so much money. And like, we were so cheap compared to some of these other shows. So we had, it was some of the like, least amount of notes they'd given on a scripted show. And part of that was because they're happy with the quality. But another part is because we don't have the budget that Game of Thrones. Yeah. So they can just be like, we're just like, yeah, we want to have Kareem, like, hop around. And they're like, sure, whatever. You know what I mean? Like, there's some flexibility that that buys you and when you show you can do it for not that much. For for their sake, like not that much for them. For us. It's still like, This is crazy. Yeah. But to them, it's like it's money. Yeah. So that's like, the, the less you ask for, and the more you show, you can handle some small amount. Like that's a good thing. And so I think having that proof of concept where it's like, we had no budget for that. We had funding for the web series. You know,
Blue 21:34
we you like sneaking into buildings and stuff is like
Dan Perlman 21:37
bribing janitors, and we're like begging people in like bodegas to let us shoot that we're stealing shots on the subway. And so by doing all that shit, they're like, Oh, these guys are just running around making some videos. So it's like, if you think could do that with nothing, what if we actually put you know, not that much for us resources behind it? I think that was like appealing to them.
Blue 21:59
Like, before this process? Did you have like a starving artists like cycle at any point? Did you kind of deal with that and your personal life?
Dan Perlman 22:08
What do you mean the cycle where you're just like, Alright,
Blue 22:11
I'm broke. But this has to work. Well, what were you doing to kind of get income like before you actually get a show Tom saying that we're investing here? Oh, I
Dan Perlman 22:20
had all kinds of jobs. So I would I do I assisted in a preschool i Whoa. Did all kinds of temp jobs. I sold mattresses at a Costco I worked as a visitor services host in a museum. I I tutored, that was another thing I did for years because I had that education, background and training. So you just do a lot of different stuff to try to I worked at Sirius XM like a radio show, just answering phones. So just buying things to kind of like, you know, to give you give yourself enough flexibility to still be able to like do comedy and try to make shit. But also but yeah, you could keep keep going. You know? And yeah, you do stand up be like, you know, you're going and doing shows after you work and going to Philly and taking like an overnight Greyhound back like after the thing. So you could be there under the bus or wherever you got to work. Yeah. All that shit, man. Yeah, I've just got very, very familiar with the Hudson Yards. But yeah, so anything to kind of like to keep going, you know? And to be able to like, Oh, when I want to, you know, if we want to like film this thing, like, how do we carve out enough time? And how do you figure out how to do that for for cheap. You know?
Blue 23:40
Will you ever like you know, this isn't going to work? I'm done. I'm given this dream up. But did you feel like oh, yeah, so let's I want to hit I want to hear about those stories. Yeah,
Dan Perlman 23:48
I mean, I mean, it's so off, you kind of keep going, because because you have enough positive reinforcement that you're like, you accumulate them over time, where you're like, Okay, I know, I'm, like good at this or can do this. But then there's so many moments where you're like, like when he did that, that pilot, right? So it's like you have this great cast, and you have this, you do this table read. That's when you read the script. Yeah, sitting around and the network is there. And they're like, oh, they like make a note. And they're like, I don't know about that. And you're like, Okay, I don't know what to expect. I guess that feels good. And then I go downstairs, and then I'm in the parking lot. My friends given me a ride home. And I got a call from our manager at the time being like, they're done with it. I make it out of the build. Wow. And so it's like, it's like, oh, that could just say Yeah, and so at first you're like, Well, I guess it'll, it'll be okay. But then you're like, I don't know, you know what I mean? But then it's like, okay, well, how do I just keep go? And I do think so much of our most creative stuff comes in those moments of desperation. I think when you're like, I don't know what else to do. I think that sort of frees you to tap into this kind of, like, lack of inhibition and sort of like, freedom of expression that you that we might hesitate, you know, yeah, I think there is something to that, you know, and so it's just kind of keeping it enough that you feel some kind of fuel to keep going, you know, and that's
Blue 25:21
the scary part because I think so many creatives, they, you get to that point where you might leave something right before it's the right time. You only live with regrets after that. Right? If you do leave it
Dan Perlman 25:32
right. So and I do think like, you know, when we look at, like, whether it's musicians, or filmmakers, or anything, like, writers, like we love their early ship the most Yeah, a reason for that is because it's a struggle, because it's so hard to get that first ship made. Yes. And so I think in that struggle, and in that compromise, and in those adjustments you have to make and like, Okay, how do I get it done? What you can barrel through ends up being so fucking cool. And so you feel the energy, you know, I watched somebody's movie A few weeks ago. This is Movie actual people, this filmmaker kit, Zaha who she made it for, like, $10,000. And I was watching it, and I was like it. I loved it so much, not because it was perfect, but because you could feel the energy behind it, it was her first feature. And you could just feel the kind of like, urgency to get that shit out there. It was so fucking cool. And inspiring to see that, you know, and I think that's like, that's the most inspiring shit. You know. And when you see a lot of our favorite people, we love their early shifts, using setting all this money, yeah, it becomes bloated, and bad. And nobody's saying no to them. And I guess it's interesting, or there might still be something there. But I do think when there's that resistance, and you really have to, like, figure out a way to get that shit through. I think some like really cool shit comes out of that. So it's tough because it's those are the times you're the most frustrated us and just slamming your head against the wall being like, why the fuck can I just get anything to just get out there? Yeah, but on the other side, like that's when some of the coolest shit comes, you know?
Blue 27:16
Does that ever make you scared as a creative now because it's Flatbush. Like you're Illmatic. Now do you like this? Does it ever make you scared?
Dan Perlman 27:25
I don't know. Well, you know, I guess not feeling. Not feeling too famous or successful, I think helps with that. So it always feels like it always does feel like okay, you just have to kind of like do it again. And I do think stand up. It instills you with that feel and because you know if that saying of like, you only feel as good as your most recent show. So, if the last show and great, you're like, Oh, that feels really good. But if a bomb, then you're bombI? Like, have I ever been good? Like you kind of like, you question yourself all the time. You're like, I don't know if I've ever been good at this. And I feel that all the time. Like, I felt great after a show recently. And then I was coming home and I was just kind of like laughing myself being like, man, if that had gone, like worse, I would have been coming home in a much worse mood, I would have been like, why am I doing this? Why am I leaving my home to go and get stared at by by drunk strangers, you know, like, you feel that all the time. But so yeah, I mean, I Yeah, it's funny how that has been, I do think you just kind of reset and keep going. And so that's, I do feel good in that regard, where it's like, okay, I know what I know what got me to that point of being able to do Flatbush, and that was just like, I just wake up and do my thing. And just, you know, just open my computer and just go whether I'm sitting in a coffee shop, and waiting to do an open mic. Like when I was starting doing comedy, or, you know, I'm just trying to deliver these scripts, because there's a network waiting for it. It's the same routine, same exact routine. It's just whether anybody's waiting on it or not. So it's just when it's self discipline, and I'm just doing this myself, then it's like, okay, I'm just doing what the routine is, you know,
Blue 29:13
so what was that moment like for you when you got the call of the meeting that So Tom's invested in want to move forward with this thing?
Dan Perlman 29:22
It was it was funny, because it was like, again, it always comes in those moments where you're like, you're like, I don't know, and I was aware that I was aware that the that decision was going to be made one way or the other. It was so late September 2020. So it was like mid COVID. Nothing was happening. Yeah, like you're just kind of like stressing, living in a basement apartment in Flatbush where like when they showed me the place to sublet, they're like and we have a washer dryer and they pointed to thing and it says out of order. Just like I'll tell ya, I'm here and Did you know I was just I was working and it was I had to do something where I could work remote. So I was, I was working for this like real estate company where it was like, it was like people were calling, I don't know, it was like an intermediary between the realtor and the broker. So I'm just like, I was just on a shift, you know. And they called and said that. I was like, right. And I was in a good mood, the rest of my shift. It's totally my last couple of weeks. But yeah, and so. So yeah, it was very exciting. But then it was just like, okay, cool. Well, by that point, the development process is very long, like, we pitched it, early 2019. It wasn't till late September 2020, that they ordered the thing. So it's like, a waiting game. So that's what's so funny, because you're like mad, because they were like, we're making an offer for you to write the pilot and the second episode, and then we'll decide from there, okay, if we're gonna make a series or not. So it felt like, it felt like the first script was the battle. And once they approved that, then I was like, Okay, I think I think I get what the sort of like, recipe of things they like is, you know, what I mean? Like, what the right sort of ingredients are, you know, and once you sort of, like, start to figure out that code a little bit, then it's like, Okay, I think I think I think we could do that. Yeah.
Blue 31:26
But the crazy part is not only are you writing the thing, you're acting in it, right? You're directing in some cases.
Dan Perlman 31:34
Yeah. But that's like, the acting, you have an advantage of, because you're writing it. Okay. So I know. And we know from stand up, like, Okay, I know, I could say this line and have this joke hit like, you could write it more towards your own voice, which you've developed from stand up, you want to get auditions for other things, I have no idea what the fuck I'm doing. Again, because I'm not a trained actor. I don't know how to be if they want me to like audition to play Lincoln, which they would never ask. But if they wanted me to do that, I would have no idea what I'm doing, I would have no fucking idea. But I could write some version of me where I could just say it within my within yourself, because that's the one thing you figure out and stand up, you figure out how to be funny, within your own voice. Got it. And so once you do that, then it's like, okay, well, that's, that's fine. So I was just trying not to think about that as much as possible in terms of the, the acting, so it was really just like, the writing of like, okay, if we can make the scripts good. And then we can surround it with comedians who are funny, you know, you're just trying to, like, put all the right pieces in place. And then I was like, I was like, of them. I was like, I just want to like, kind of like Steve Kerr this thing, if I could, I know, we can put the Golden State Warriors around, you know what I mean? And Hassan And Kareem, and all these people, like there, and I'll just like, if you put them there, like the magic ways, just like Let's go, you know,
Blue 33:01
okay. What was it like for you going through that casting process of choosing these people? Were these people you had in mind while you were writing? Or was it once it was alright, we're on Showtime. Now we got to get these people in here.
Dan Perlman 33:14
It was a good mix well, because a lot of them a lot of the comedians were in the web series initially. So Kareem Greene, who plays my stepdad was in the web series. And Yamaneika Saunders who plays my therapist who just yells at me alive. She was in the web series. So a lot of the commentary caught it who was a writer on the show also was assigned to add one Hassan Yeah, joined for. For the Showtime series, Hassan and Kristen Dodson, who plays Xena were the two like, significant add ons. And, and I knew Yeah, so Hassan didn't audition. We just assumed with him, because it was COVID. And he was like, I'm out. I like the web series would love to work with you guys. And we're like, okay, great. I mean, because I was like, the
Blue 34:03
AI the thing I know, that's what he says, yeah. How much practice Have you seen?
Dan Perlman 34:12
Yeah, I mean, that's the thing was like, because it was like, you know, I knew he was a great actor. I didn't know how funny he was. Okay, so that was, that was what I wasn't. I didn't know until he came on set. Got it. And I was like, Man, this guy is so fucking funny. He has this like, amazing ability, like a comedian to like, say, to say lines, totally within his voice, and have it still be fun. It's like a pitcher, like Greg Maddux, you know, he would have like, he would have like, throw the pitch like, the way it should. I'm like, Man, how does he have that control? And that's how I feel about every one of Hassan's line readings where like he could have lions hit where I'm like, that's not even a joke. Like I don't know how he had this show. There was like, I always think of some random episode. So to where it's like, Zayn is upset because she isn't going to get to dance for like halftime at the basketball game. And she says that to Hassan, and it sounds like you're the best dancer, though. That's not a joke. Yeah,
Blue 35:13
what is hilarious, I'm
Dan Perlman 35:14
laughing in time. Like, I don't know how he does it. So he has this like, amazing ability where he can say like, and also he has this ability, where he's so fucking likable, where it's like, you can watch them and be like, I believe he could kill Dan and Kevin. But also, I believe it, but also, I would still kind of be on his side, like, we'd still be kind of funny. But I also buy it, and it would still feel like he's just incredibly endearing. While he can also be tough, like, eat totally within himself, and not even require like, a huge flip. He's staying the same guy the whole way, which is like a tightrope to walk us. And He does it so easily. It's crazy.
Blue 35:52
Now, I almost feel like it made me assist what I'm selecting when I'm watching all the streaming services and everything, but I feel like there are so many stories now where you're just watching the characters make bad decisions and get screaming at the screen. So I mean, firstly, how fun is it for you to write it in that way? And then secondly, is it really something where a lot of writers have realized this is what people like, so we're going to keep dishing this out?
Dan Perlman 36:20
I don't know. I don't know in terms of like, if other people would realize that. But for me, it's like, it's so fun to do that, like I don't want, especially when it's like some version of you know, when I watch somebody who's like, I know, they're writing a thing for themselves. Like, I just don't want to watch a guy who's like really killing it in life and somebody right writing themselves being really charming, and just like fucking alive, just like I'm making a lot of money. I want to watch somebody make active wrong choices, and just barrel ahead. Like, that's so funny to me. And so, yeah, putting my guy in spots where he's, like, actively, actively, just like barreling ahead in the wrong way. And he's this guy, My guy is like trying so hard to get love from all of these places that do not reciprocate it. He is like really trying to teach and the kids don't want to hear it. He's really trying to coach basketball. And he's not any good at it alone and really pursuing this love interests that are like not feel it. He's pursuing this friendship with Kevin who's over the dynamic like, and the only respect where he's getting that love back is like from Kareem, who's a stepdad. And he's, like, overbearing, so real again. So it is these people were like, Hi, I'm here. You're like, yeah, I don't want it. Yeah, but anybody who's not offering it, you're like, Well, why are you offering it? So? Putting that guy in those spots? I'm like, Oh, that's so fun. But it's also sad, but playing that dynamic out. Feels very fun.
Blue 37:50
How far ahead? Did you write? And the reason I asked this is that with a lot of shows, I also feel that you have those changes, like when it comes to season two? Yeah. Is it something where, hey, you wrote most of season one. And then you're like, Alright, cool, you got the extension? We got to figure out what we're gonna write next. It was that process, okay?
Dan Perlman 38:11
Because season one, like ends on some cliffhangers and stuff. And then we started meeting it was like, Oh, well, what are we gonna do for season two? Or like, I don't know, like you there was no, you just kind of right at, because you get the season order. And so you can plan for season two. But it's one of those things where it's like, you can plan your life five years ahead. But what good does that do you know what I mean? You can only you only know, day by day to a certain point. So yeah, so we wrote all the first season, and then you figure out a little onset, and then once you get into the room for the second season, then we start figuring out what those are. So that's why like, in between seasons, you'll see like, you know, there's some like environment like setting shifts, like Okay, now we'll do na will be a storyline and the bike shop, story and the art fellowship. So you find these like new worlds to tap into. And so that's why it's like, each season kind of feels like its own book, its own piece, album, whatever it is, you know, what I mean? Where it's like, that's what because you're, you're doing that as a whole, you know,
Blue 39:14
then I mean, nowadays, social media, you get that instant feedback. How much of that? Do you even consider when you're going into a season to do you try to figure out who the favorite characters were the write more towards them because of that.
Dan Perlman 39:28
That's not so much. I mean, you read it because it's fun to read. You know what I mean? It's honestly fun. And, you know, also speaking, because nobody was to me and you know, so that was nice. But no, it's not that you write to the favorite characters, but you do write to what you saw, you saw worked, you know, so you figure out like, Oh, these two played off each other really well. Or a big thing was also like, when we were writing season one we didn't know Hassan was going to be drew we didn't know Kristen was going to be Anna and Kristen like that Xana character is a character that like, if somebody else was playing the part it might feel much sad or it might feel because she can feel very like put upon she has a lot of sad should happen or but Kristen imbued her with so much like warmth and energy that you always felt like, Oh, she's gonna be okay, you know, which is not easy to do and comedy also she was like very funny with a lot of her shit very easily so. So I think seeing that, like you're writing with the person's voice in mind, which makes the writing better initially because you you can imagine a person you can know what is going to work for them the same way I was saying like, Oh, I know what jokes I can hit like, you know, oh, Hassan's gonna make that work. Kristen is going to make that work and it makes those characters stronger from the jump also. And then yeah, people will write what's fun, as you'd see, I would see. I like the different interpretations of people being like, that character drives me insane. Or people like, Xena makes me so fucking angry. She's so selfish boba. And so people are like, Dad is the villain like, oh, wow, those different takes. And that's so funny to me that you can watch it and not have a clear like, that person's the enemy, that person's whatever, just based on your own, whatever you're like, I feel like I'm that guy. Or like, I feel like I'm her fuckup you know, like, yeah, it all feels fun. You know,
Blue 41:26
I mean, for me, I said, I appreciated 20 roti shot, but when it came to trying to figure out the different communities are included, right? There's elements, African elements, there's Caribbean elements, did you get any negative feedback from that, or what was kind of the feedback you got in, in trying to put those elements in?
Dan Perlman 41:43
I feel like a lot of it, that I that I saw was, was positive. Which is, which is good. Because I mean, like, you know, and I can't I can't take any sort of credit for that. I feel like I have to, like give all of that credit to, to Kevin and the crew. And the the writers, you know, like, we had so many people who are involved in it, who I think we're giving next. It's like, I couldn't, I couldn't write any sort of authentic Trini experience or like having black women in the writers room who could, like write to Zane his character? Like, I've never been a black teenage girl, like, What the fuck do I know? So like, but But again, it's like putting those everybody in place and empowering them to, to have a voice and to express themselves. And then we could come to some discussion of like, okay, and then within that within those details, what makes sense, like, character arc wise, and what makes sense for all the other chess pieces? And how do we play them? And if we move this one here, how do we move that one? And how does it all impact each other? That's where this sort of, like 10,000 foot view of it all comes in, you know, but I feel like, that meant a lot that people were positive about it. Because it's like, you know, worse than, like, no representation is like misrepresentation. And so you don't want to walk into that. And so, I feel like that, that's where everybody sort of collectively, you know, it's very much a group effort, when you see those award show speeches, and everybody's throwing out 1000 names, and you're like, who are they talking about, but you really do want to throw out all of those names. Every single person, so it's like, you watch the credits, after a movie, or a show with more appreciation, because you're like, that's what I didn't know before. Doing the show is like, you know, from production designers to like, costume to hair and makeup, like to be good in those departments. Like you have to not just know like, oh, what costumes to get, but like, where is this character? Like, mentally? Where are they? At the start of the season? Where are they? If it's morning, like, how would they you know, you read the script, and they break it down from this crazy detailed level that really just like elevates the whole thing. And then it makes your writing better because you're seeing that stuff that they're considering more and that makes you consider it more in future stuff. So it's really cool. It's really cool and collaborative, and fun. And once you're in that energy you just want to be in that energy all the time. You know,
Blue 44:11
was there anyone out there in the world that it surprised you when you find out they were watching the show?
Dan Perlman 44:21
Yeah, yes. Shirt loose. There is some there is some tweets anytime anybody in the NBA, either current or former, like tweeted about it. I was like, Oh, that's pretty cool. So that was fun. But no. Shark Charlaine I Phil who was like one of the like high up people at the Southern Poverty Law Center, who I like just seen on 60 minutes. Like some clip. She was like, oh, Kareem sang dead baby pigeon to the face was one of my favorites. I like goofy shit. Like this is so fucking doable that some like high, influential person like working with like government. Yeah, it was like I was like oh, that's pretty cool. Yeah sounds cool. Yeah so any anytime somebody with a serious job God liked our stupid shit that feels fun because you're a quotable now yeah. Oh, that's that I didn't think we were writing that that anybody who has any kind of like real job stupid little like back of the room you
Blue 45:36
know they use it in the vernacular, it's like a regular dis
Dan Perlman 45:40
mucking around in the back of the class, but that's like, oh, the teachers liked it. Do you know?
Blue 45:44
Are you MBA guy? I mean, you got to build us a reference earlier. We'll see a team.
Dan Perlman 45:50
Well, I grew up a Knicks fan, okay, one of my early I was just telling a friend, because he was like, I've never been to a playoff game. One of my earliest memories that I before I even knew what was going on was Charles Smith missing those three layups against the bowls, and my dad hanging his head. We were at the game. Wow. High up into there, and we're there. And I just remember I vaguely remember it, but I just remember my dad hanging his head in his hands. And me just being like, Dad, can we go and he's like, in a minute, and he just needed a minute to grapple with that. Right? The Bulls had the swarming defense, that just shut them out. But yes, I'm watching the playoffs. And that's my one thing to watch. That's why it was fun making my guy a failed like a struggling assistant coach on the basketball team.
Blue 46:38
That was the correlation right there. Yeah, I
Dan Perlman 46:39
was like, That's a fun world. Yeah. My guy with no skills would be in that.
Blue 46:44
My my brothers tried to make me a Knicks fan when I was young, but then kind of when they were going against the rockets, and OJ drove across the screen, that was it for me. Like, yeah,
Dan Perlman 46:53
that's right. Up to the final. White Bronco. Yes.
Blue 46:56
And I didn't know who OJ Simpson was. I'm like, Who the hell is this guy? Why are they stopping the farmers for this guy? Like, put it back on? I'm like, You know what, I can't do this anymore. I was like, 11 years ago. I'm a Lakers fan. Now.
Dan Perlman 47:09
That's true. They would not have cut in on the way Exactly. Lakers were at it. It would have kept going. No. Magic. That's it. That's a Patrick Ewing.
Blue 47:23
So going back to the Showtime piece, you landed season two. Right. But then after that, I want to go into this part. Right. So they did do the cancellation. Yeah. Right. So what was what was that moment for you like knowing that you had these two seasons? Yeah, got it under the belt? This is more than a previous show that you got into boxes? Hands? Sure. Was that a devastating moment for you?
Dan Perlman 47:48
Honestly, it wasn't, because, I mean, I kind of I that's how I kind of thought it would go. Okay. I thought, I guess I thought I was like, that's probably that's probably it after two. And there's a lot of there's always a billion factors. You know, when you're just looking at a shot from the outside, you're like, oh, they should bring it here, there. But then you learn, like, there's all this like, internal stuff with a million different stakeholders for why a thing can continue or can't is the same, like basketball or teams or bands or whatever, like there's a million reasons, like why things go the way they do. But no, it really was like, for me, it was like, it was genuine, like, it was genuine gratitude and appreciation for getting to make two seasons of a thing, because it's so fucking hard to get to get it there and get a thing out there. And to have the people who liked it like it to the extent that they did, like, that meant a lot, you know, it really did. And so I think it was just kind of a chance to, like, really appreciate because when you're in it, you're so in it, that you can't like, step back, like feel it and see it with any sort of appreciation, because you're just like, well, I just gotta I gotta get the script done. Or I gotta give notes on this cut, I got to just do go go go like to the next thing. But getting the step back and like and have people express how much they liked it or how that it helped them during this time, or that time people reaching out and those personal messages like you do read them. And it does mean a lot because, you know, it's like an intimate thing when you when people see something and connect with it, and all that. So that meant a lot. No, if I'm being honest, the thing that bugged me more, because the cancellation I'm like, Okay, well the thing exists and will always exist. But then recently, they had to take it off streamers because there's a whole thing going on right now with like, there's about to be a writer's strike. Oh boy. So this is why, if you're seeing your like, favorite shows, and They're getting pulled. And you're like, why are they taking them off? It's like, it's just this thing with residuals. And so that was more annoying to have it. Yeah. Which I think it'll go back on once the thing passes. But, but having a bold, you're like, well, that's annoying, because it's like, once it's there, and it exists, like, just watch, you can find it and it'll always be there. And so that was a more frustrating day. But again, all of it just shows like, you know, it's all proof that you can do that. And so places, like I was saying, are more likely to let you do another thing? Because they saw you didn't set their money on fire? You know what I mean? You made you delivered, which is not easy, you know? Yeah, for sure.
Blue 50:43
Now, even in that process, it was it ever thought I can like, how does it work in TV world? Can you then try to take your show and move it to another network? Or are you typically signing on where that network kind of owns that show? At that point,
Dan Perlman 50:56
they kind of they kind of own it's like one of those things where it's like, you could maybe take it elsewhere, but it's like, generally, when you see that stuff moved to a network, it's usually a thing that has run for like, like, you know, five, six years, and then there's they already have, you know, millions of fans. They know, this is a thing over the years, they've proven this is the audience for scrubs, you know what I mean? So it's like that kind of shit. Yeah. So it's just there. And so it gets tougher, it gets tougher when it's anything short of that. But again, it's there. And people saw it and liked it. And then you have all these people you've worked with who you're like, I want to work with, I would work with Asana, and anything I would work. So many of these people like Roy and Maria, like all these amazing people and on the crew also. So all of that helps when you're trying to then do the next thing you know,
Blue 51:47
outside of obviously, your own show. Historically, can you give me a show that you wish had another season so you can see how it was completed?
Dan Perlman 51:57
Oh, that's a fun question. Man, I'm trying to think. I don't know. I feel like I feel like often the ones I like, I don't know, there's not not one that jumps out right there. But when I was a kid, I watched when I was a kid, I felt like a lot of those shows that we liked you watch some of the early seasons. And you're like, Oh, these aren't that good, like some of the first seasons of a lot of our favorite shows to kind of suck. But what they had then was they did give them time to sort of like find it. Yes, in a way where I'll watch some of these like shows that ended up being great. I mean, the first two seasons fucking suck.
Blue 52:36
If you look at fresh prints, they weren't like a different scene. It was a different house. They're in a different they're in a change the mother later on my switch,
Dan Perlman 52:45
like, the whole show with the earlier adversive Like, yeah, these are not that great. Yeah, there was a whole season of family matters where they didn't know if Urkel was gonna be a character Exactly. Like what is going on. He's
Blue 52:57
the main guy. They figured it out. But it's
Dan Perlman 52:59
like, but they did give them more time. So I think that's one of the things that, that you get why they don't now, but it is a shame, because it's like, I mean, like anything you figure out, you figure out what's working, you figure out. And not just like what the audience is responding to, but like, Oh, this is where we should be focusing. This is where, you know, and again, you only know that by fucking trying, trying different sort of combinations and sort of writing your way into it. And that's another thing I would say if like people trying to like, make sure it's like, I think so many people get discouraged if they don't have all the answers figured out at the beginning. When it's like with scripts or anything, it's like you sort of write your way into it, you figure it out, the more like, over multiple drafts or over multiple versions of anything. And so, like, give yourself that time to like find it, you know,
Blue 53:53
not to have spoiler alerts for anyone who hasn't caught up to all the episodes. But I mean, we kind of left off with Xena, but like yeah, if you were able to kind of even close flappers the way you wanted to, like what season would you have ended it in with what type of ending? Did you ever think that far down the line?
Dan Perlman 54:11
Yeah, I mean, you kind of think you kind of think like, for me, it's kind of like, there's always this difference, which is fun to think about of like, where do the characters want to go? And then where do they like need to go to grow as people because there's always like, what are our dreams? And then there's always like, Oh, no, but what is this person actually need? You know? Yeah, so that was fun to think about of like, okay, so like, Kevin's dream is to, like, be a successful artist, you know, but then it's like, well, what is he really, like, need that character? And like, what to me what that character needed. And this is just me like, he's never had a sense of place. You know, he moved around a lot. He was kind of a couch. Yeah, he went back home. So he's never really felt like the sense of place and purpose and And so, for me, it was like, oh, it'd be fun if you found that. Like, if you found that in Flatbush and found this like World War, it's like, he really has a purpose, you know, and is like working, even if it was like working with art, like a local level, like he didn't have to become boss, you know, right. But that's more fun. Like, oh, that's the sort of like, that's what that person needs is to feel like rooted somewhere to feel like, you sort of like settled and you've unpacked your bags, and you're like, there, and you feel like, secure and safe and all that shit. And so, and then for my guy, it's like, it would be like we're saying of like, he's saying he's getting Xanax? Sure. But also, like, he's trying is to stop trying for all these things that are not reciprocating the love. And so finding those places where it is being reciprocated, I think, would have been fun to find that kind of journey, you know? And then for Kareem, I don't know, he'd probably be mayor or something.
Blue 56:07
So now, what have you kind of turn your energy to? Is it back to our stand up? Right? Is that your main goal and focus now? Are you looking to get more into TV? Is film a different avenue that you're looking at?
Dan Perlman 56:23
Yeah, I like I liked, like, from doing TV, I liked the writing and sort of show running, directing, like all of that stuff. And so. So I have, like, new shows I'm working on that are in very early stages, and like, and wrote a movie scripts, which, you know, all this stuff takes time, like I was saying how long that pitch took after they made the offer, like, it takes all this time. But, you know, like, Okay, I've gotten it over the line before, you know, and so it's just kind of putting in the energy to do that. But that's really fun. Like, when you can be on set. And, and be in that energy. That's really fun. And a big thing that I've been thinking about even just recently, it's like, okay, how do I? How do I continue to make stuff without waiting for that? Industry approval, you know, and while while you still go for that, and and want the resources to do this, or that, like, how do I continue to create and make stuff even in the interim, so you're not just waiting on some exec, three levels up to sign off, but how do you keep making stuff? So you're continuing to hone that muscle, you know, and so that's, that's the thing that you're always thinking about that I'm always trying to like, Okay, what's that next thing to do that, but letting TV film and sort of like, creating that stuff, even if I'm not in it, because you know, if the thing, if there's a part for me, sometimes you're writing and you're like, Oh, there I am. To me, it almost seems fun. Like, I could just be in one scene and be funny, and then fuck off. But but it's still, you know, you're still setting the whole world. So it's still even stuff that I'm not, in that I've written, like, I'm all over it in terms of like, this is how I think about this stuff. And you sort of feel it out. But yeah, that's, that's the stuff I'm working on. Now.
Blue 58:15
What's more fun for you today stand up, or writing?
Dan Perlman 58:19
For me the writing is, is more fun, just because it's it kind of lets you hit other perspectives in a way that's fun. And when you're thinking about how to like, how to how to sort of like arc character characters, and how do you have a sort of beginning middle end, and then how to use like subvert expectations, and all of that, like, that feels fun. Stand up, I love and there's an immediacy, that's very fun. That will always be fun, but there is something about it about writing where you're like, how do these other characters how to stuff that is not is not just, you know? Yeah. And being forced to think outside of that, you know, one thing that's like, a fun exercise when I'm writing scripts is like, how is like, Okay, if this supporting character, if they were the main character, what would the thing look like, and that lets you think about the war, like, who is important to them who's whatever. So that, that lets you think about in a way where it's like, where you're not going to have characters that are just there to serve you and are just there to give you information, which I think helped in Flatbush because it's like, all the characters kind of have their own wants in their own worlds. And there are characters who are never thinking about, like, they don't give a shit. They have their own shit going on. So that's, that's what's really fun about writing.
Blue 59:45
What are you watching right now to kind of leave off with that.
Dan Perlman 59:50
What am I watching? Right now what did I watch? I watched succession. Okay, which I didn't watch for a while but you Again, what I like what I like about that show is I was telling my friend who writes for And Zoey winters who was on Flatbush, and if you saw the second season, she runs the art fellowship. She's on succession, and kills it. Nice. She's so good. But what I love about that show, what I love for all my favorite shows is they just find any reason to get the characters in a room together. They're like, it's the board meeting. It's the anniversary dinner. It's Thanksgiving, it's the New Year's party. It's the wedding. Like put them together and have them fucking bitch at each other and conspire together and try to fuck the other one over. Like, that's the fun is these characters in this family like, and whenever we're going to talk about the mechanics of like, oh, the company has to do this. Like, I don't give a fuck about any of that. But you just want to watch them. It's the relationship like I would suggest you watch the IEF I'd started it. Okay. I've only watched the pilot. Okay, I got pulled into something else. But yes, yeah. Is it good?
Blue 1:01:00
Yeah, I liked it. Yeah, like, and I think it's this relationship. It's yeah, totally. It's a lot of that. So that's
Dan Perlman 1:01:06
what Yeah, and it's like, in the different worlds are all fun, but it's like when you have that you're like, oh, man, that's fun.
Blue 1:01:11
And they make bad decisions. Like it's one of some bad decisions such as your situation so I guess that's the relatability of thanks
Dan Perlman 1:01:18
for sure. Yeah, yeah, berries. Another one that is good. But that where you're just watching a character like sink sink. And you're like, Man, I don't know how much darker this could get.
Blue 1:01:29
That's it but no, then I truly appreciate you stopping by Yeah, man getting the insights. Oh, yeah. It was helpful, I think and I'm looking forward to what you have next. Thanks. Good to see what's out there. It's really fun appreciate and then maybe the Busto comes out when they steal because I want to see Bill Russell 11 rings on the bus is bluedot peace
Outro 1:02:07
thanks for listening. If you enjoyed this episode of Blue dope and you'd like to help support the podcast, please share it with others post about it on social media, or leave a rating and review. To catch all the latest. You can follow the crew on Instagram at Blue dope TV
Hey what's up everybody, it's your boy blue. And on today's episode of Blue dope, have a stand up comedian in the building that created a web series that turned into this bigger thing that show Top picked up. Right. And he is here today to speak to us about none other than Dan Perlman. Flatbush misdemeanors.
Dan Perlman 0:33
What's going on, man?
Blue 0:34
I'm good. How's everything? Good, man? Yeah. So I mean, you're in Brooklyn. Yes. How much like home does Brooklyn fields you now after even having a show based in Brooklyn?
Dan Perlman 0:45
I mean, probably more. So more. So now because the you know, I feel like that's like the one or two zip codes I might get recognized. codes in the world. I feel like you're likely to to have seen the thing. But yeah, I mean, I think that that was one of the biggest things is we made this show it was called Flatbush misdemeanors, and we made it as a web series initially, and then became a common it was a comedy short and then became a Comedy Series for Showtime and people in Flatbush and people in Brooklyn liking it that meant the most because they're the people most likely to say if they don't like a thing you know I'm a extremely chilled they're gonna make it no and there's no they're not going to be just polite and they're not gonna be you know, have southern etiquette or anything they're gonna say I don't fuck with that. I don't like it at all. And so that meant a lot that they liked it. Yeah. Do
Blue 1:40
you feel like the honorary Western Nina
Dan Perlman 1:47
but I'm not here to get I think as a
Blue 1:49
word, you know, got it. Got it. I mean, even for myself, so I am Trinidadian, both my parents and Trinidad and I lived in Flatbush for a few years as a kid, one of the many parts of Brooklyn I lived in. And even for me, I didn't know what to expect from the show. And then as soon I think it was the first episode, I saw the Trinidadian Roti shop. And I was like, cool, we got something authentic. Yeah. Because you can easily well with the jerk chicken spot, and that would have just been short. So
Dan Perlman 2:12
I think I think in an early version of the script, it might have just been like, a standard jerk chickens. And then as we're writing the full thing, it slowly changed. But that was also just really looking out of having people in the room, like in the writers room and on the crew and stuff who are from Brooklyn from Flatbush, like born and raised who could say, like music supervisor of like, this is the kind of music you would hear in the road to show so it would just feel like to all the details, you know,
Blue 2:42
did you eat Rosie in the process? Oh, yeah. Well, making sure. But I definitely do want to start off with you. So you're not originally from Brooklyn, where are you from? What was your childhood? Like? What was the family dynamic? The family dynamic dynamic? Yes.
Dan Perlman 2:58
I'm from I'm from Manhattan. So from from New York and and then have lived in like you have lived in few different neighborhoods lived in Ridgewood, Queens and Astoria, Queens and then Flatbush and so the family dynamic. I don't know, my parents were together until they weren't and then had a younger sister. And, but always felt the felt a good amount of support from them about like, doing creative stuff. I think it was as long as I was working hard, I felt like they support if I was just sitting around, then they would not have been okay. But the fact that I was constantly and that was important motivation to keep going, you know, keep working at it. Because without that, then it stops being cool. But treating it like a job from the beginning helped it become one you know,
Blue 3:46
so I mean, growing up like when did you realize you want to be in film like did you go to film school, anything like that?
Dan Perlman 3:52
I didn't go to film school. I always kind of wanted to do it. But I didn't know if I would have the courage. So I went to I went to school in Chicago and I studied education. So like I play a teacher exactly right? Because that's so that version of me on flat pushes, who I think I would have been if I didn't have the courage to do comedy was like, I would have been a bad teacher who was like trying but just failing the kids constantly. So I was like, that's like, what's the worst version of me? That was the plan with a pill addiction and everything just to like with the xanies get through the day. Exactly. So no, but then all my friends were filming. So we made a lot of made friends there. And we made a lot of terrible sketches. And we would write would write like, multiple sketches a week and then film them on the weekend and most of them were awful, you know, but you learn the discipline of just continuing to do it over and over and over again. So that's where I developed that and then once I finished school and then came back to New York, then it was like, Okay, I know how to put in the work now and now it's just put your head down to just be bad for years and just inch toward We're just getting better, you know, try to get a little less bad. Consistently, you know,
Blue 5:04
there you go. And so you have something good for sure. Yeah. So how did Chicago contrast for you just being from New York? And what kind of flavor did you get from Chicago from being there?
Dan Perlman 5:14
Well, it's weird, because when you're from you're from New York, yeah. So like, you know, when you go anywhere else, it feels like, Oh, this is like, small, even though it's a huge city, it still feels like, Oh, this is cool, like a little slower pace. You know, it feels like you're going to, you're like, leaving something that feels more intense or whatever. So but I liked I didn't want to be in the middle of nowhere, you know, so I liked being like, in a city, and it's a really good city for like, you know, arts and just like creating stuff. I feel like, it's like, those are my favorite audience to go and do stand up for on the road outside of New York, because it's like, they have they're smart, but not like, you know, but not like up their own ass. Not like, Yup, yes, she there, they get it and they're down for whatever kind of shit. They're down for weirdness. They're down for dumb shit. You know, it feels like they're really just there to have fun, you know? So you got to be free. Yeah, it feels it feels like a very, also, there is something nice about, about doing shit, like away from everybody you grew up with, you know what I mean? Like, kind of going somewhere else. And you feel a little more free to like nobody. Because initially when I started, I was like, I don't want anybody I know to be in the audience. I don't want anybody. Like, I would rather just try for strangers, instead of like, just having all my friends come out and be like, what does this guy think he's doing? You know what I mean? I would rather it just be people I'm never gonna see again. So I felt I felt very free. And I felt like, just able to try shit there, which I think is one of the most important things when you're starting, you know, like,
Blue 6:52
what made you have the courage enough to just go up for that first time? Was it the fact that you were in this space where no one knew you? That's exactly all it was.
Dan Perlman 7:01
I think that helped. I think that definitely helped. And then I think it was, I mean, I've been writing jokes for years. And I'd been like, you know, just sort of, you know, I would just write jokes in my notebook and just, like, hide them and not do anything with them. And then it was like, just wanting to try it. And I think people coming up to me, like, individually, and being like, hey, that was funny, or like, Hey, that was good. You just look for these little signs of encouragement and positive reinforcement, you know? So I think that was it. But I think it was also it's just like, wanting to be good at it and ship chipping away at it. The process is fun. Yeah. Because if not, then it's just gonna be terrible. Like, if you're, if you're going in thinking, like, somebody's going to discover me, and then I'll be a big sale, like, you're just gonna want to kill yourself, because that's just not how it thing's gonna go. You know, it's like, oh, this is fun to work at this thing and feel like you're gradually getting better, which you're more likely to feel at the beginning. Because how, how much better you get you start out so bad, you know what I mean? Not knowing what you're doing, that you can feel the growth moreso than when you get to this place where you kind of know you're doing that it starts to feel more incremental, you know,
Blue 8:09
you cringe at your videos. Oh,
Dan Perlman 8:11
I couldn't watch them. Yeah, well, I have a hard time watching myself in general, because I know, I see all the mistakes that I made. And I feel that with the show, also, like, it's very tough for me, I remember being at the premiere, where they showed the first two episodes, and it was for like an audience. And it was nice, but I was just like, I can't do this again. Because I've seen, I've seen every cut so many times. You see it in the script, you see it on set, and the editor is cutting directors who shot this a little better. Yeah, you're like, man, what, even beyond my face. But then it's still a question of like, Man, I could have taken another second off here. Or like, why did we do that? That you you just see, it's just a cut. You can't fix that, you know what I mean? So that's what's tough about it. And it's nice, other people can enjoy it. But once once it's done, I needed to like, go, and I felt that also with with old standard videos, it's even more intense, because it's just, you know, I can look at the show. And even if I cringe at myself, I'm like, oh, Kareem is being funny. You know what I made that shit. But as the editor asked you, then it's like, there's nothing else to look at. Except where you fall short, you know?
Blue 9:25
So now, comedian, right? Wanting to potentially be a teacher at some point, right? Yeah. Were you also thinking, hey, I want to do a TV show throughout this process growing up?
Dan Perlman 9:37
Sure. Yeah, but but I didn't know. I didn't know if I could but yeah, I totally wanted to. Yeah, so
Blue 9:44
what were there certain comedians, where you said, I want to be like them?
Dan Perlman 9:48
Oh, yeah. I mean, all those I mean, well, it's like, when you're young. Like you feel like I just you know about the most famous comedians you know about Chris Rock, you know about sign fell do you know about Cosby, you know about like all of these guys like the most famous guys, but it also becomes a big thing when you learn about like it, especially being in New York, when you learn about like live comedy, we could go to like, the cellar and places like that, where you can see stand up be like, Oh, they're just some guys that do it that are not like, incredibly famous, and that makes it feel more attainable, because you're like, Oh, they're just, they're just people that do this, you know? And that feels more error. This guy, Greg Geraldo, who was like a great, great comedian who died like 10 years ago. But he was like a New York guy, like a Queens guy. And he was super smart, but also could be silly and dumb. And I just loved his shit so much. And that was so cool. Inspiring to be like, oh, yeah, there's, there's just like, some dude who's not like the most famous guy in the world. It's like an awesome comedian. But that was like, hugely influential, and then watching all those like old sitcoms, I would watch Nick at Night, and all those old gray comedies. And I feel like that's what also I was like, Man, that would be like, awesome to do a thing like that to do like, comedies that also have like, a little bit of heart a little bit and are able to, like, hit on issues without like, feeling like you're doing a very special episode about this serious topic. So got it. Totally. Yeah.
Blue 11:17
Now, I mean, I'm gonna assume that flatfish wasn't your first web series that you ever even penned. Was there something before this where you're like, I think this might be the one.
Dan Perlman 11:28
Well, yeah, I mean, well, so you just kind of make a lot of stuff because you don't know what's going to kind of catch on but but yeah, I mean, well, the first pilot I ever sold was an animated show. I did a pilot for Fox. And it was animated show, it was called that's my bus was about a city bus driver, okay. And named Bill Russell was very sensitive to not wanting to be mistaken for a basketball player. But he had a wife who was separated from and an 11 year old son and they were like the passengers on the bus that were like the, you know, recurring like, you know, cheers typecast that you just see. So I thought that was so fun.
Blue 12:08
Sounds like a good idea.
Dan Perlman 12:10
Yeah. We did it. We did a pilot. We had a great cast, we have Regina King. Wow. Dante Bosco and your Gary Anthony Williams. Wow, amazing. Wow, you see, and I didn't know. And I wasn't even I wasn't in it. I had no part or anything. But I was just like, but it was so helpful. Because I got to learn about that whole process. You know, you learn every step of like art as you read the thing, you work with the studio and network and go through all these steps and hurdles. And then you also learn like, oh, it could be taken away like that. But you also, you just get better at figuring out this is how I collaborate with these people. And this is how you develop a thing. And so once flappers came along, I was like, Okay, I learned so much more. And so I feel like without that experience, I wouldn't have been able to, like, get Flatbush to the point where it got, you know, because you just you just learn a little more every time. But yeah, I still stand by that.
Blue 13:06
Sounds like a great idea.
Dan Perlman 13:09
Because it's like moving but also, but also there's some like grounded ness to it. I don't know. Yeah,
Blue 13:15
you liked the city life as well.
Dan Perlman 13:19
Because I was like, Oh, well, we had magic school bus. But it was only school bus base. Yes. Have a nice like city bus. You could keep it surprising, but then you just see the same people. But yeah, I mean, you learn but again, every time you learn a little more, but also, that was a big reason why I wanted to do like flat Bush as a web series. And we did that because it was like, you, when you make a pilot for a network, you go through all the steps and hurdles, and you, you know, slowly clear all these steps. But then if it doesn't go to series, nobody gets to see the thing. And so it was a thing where it's like, alright, if we do the web series, and just throw it online, even if 50 people see it, it's a thing and it exists. So it's out there and it's not it's not potentially all for nothing, you know, in terms of anybody getting to like see the finished product, you know, so
Blue 14:08
in that way would you say TVs kind of like music nowadays, because I feel like especially with a&r is being removed from music there's almost this feel of the artists has to kind of show that they have an audience that it could be something that they could just magnify if they're on a bigger label. Has TV kind of turned into that as well. From your point of view,
Dan Perlman 14:28
I think well, well it's weird because like when we made his web series like it's not like I think there are some where it's like wow, that got like I think like I think like Issa Rae's web series before she did insecure, I think she got like a lot of views and I think there was a big audience. We did not have that. But we did have was it started doing well in film festivals. We started sending it to film festivals and it would play in these like blocks of narrative, short films. And I don't know if you've ever seen like short films like narrative ones there. All tragic, they're all incredibly sad. It's people showing they could make, they shouldn't be able to make features. And they're trying to make things that are important. So it's always about, it's always about a burn victim or a baby who dies or like, it's all incredibly sad. And then we just had a comedy. So yeah, would always do well in the room, it would never win the thing, usually. Yeah. Because they would give that to something that was like, you know, faux serious or whatever. But it would just kill and so that got it. Momentum. So I think even if you can't get an audience, what you want is like, some external recognition of this is good. Because once somebody says it's good, then other people feel like they have permission to say it's good. So it's just like, it's just finding the cosign. Yeah, that weird stamp of approval from someone or something. At some point, which I think I think that was hugely helpful for it. Yeah.
Blue 15:55
So I mean, going through these film festivals, did you then still have to set up a pitch for the show? Did someone from Showtime contact you?
Dan Perlman 16:01
No, no, we still set up a pitch. Well, first, I went to production companies. So we had some offers. And then we started working with a production company, and then develop to the pitch for, for networks, and then went in and was like, This is what we would want to do with it. And this is, but the fact that we made the web series, that was hugely helpful for them, because the biggest hurdle with all that shit is people, the execs like, they can't really, they don't really know laws. Yeah, they can't really imagine it. They're like, I don't know, if I see it, there's so much pressure on you to do a little song and dance in the room. But when the thing is made, they're already they've already been like, Oh, I see it. You know, I see. You guys, I see the world, I see where the comedy could be. And so they've already bought in, you know, so that was without that. It doesn't, it doesn't get greenlit because it just it just given them so much in terms of evidence of like, oh, I can imagine this. I can see these guys. Like it's already I already know, it's funny, God. And the biggest question is like, Where does the comedy come in? And if they see that, and know that it's clear, that's huge. Yeah.
Blue 17:06
So I mean, my shows definitely kind of like, almost like a how to, so we can kind of take a step back to the shortage itself. Yeah, I want to understand what even that process is like, and what does a real, like a good quote unquote, pitch look like when it comes to TV?
Dan Perlman 17:22
Yeah, I think the big the biggest thing is, like understanding like, Who are the characters and like, what kind of what kind of like journey they're going to go on? You know, because I think, you know, I think sometimes it's like, you know, when people will, like, tell me an idea or something, it's like, they think of a world or whatever they're like, alright, we we run a diner or something. It's like, okay, that's fine. But like, who are we looking at, like, concretely, who are we looking at? And what is the cause there was this good advice I read from some writer once and he was like, people always pitch me movies, or ideas. And they're like, oh, it's about a car chase, or it's about, you know, an apocalypse or whatever. And he's like, tell me the story in terms of a relationship. Because at the end of the day, every movie every show everything, at the core, there's some it doesn't have to be romantic, but it's like, about a father son. It's about like, two siblings, it's about two friends or whatever, like, and sometimes a few things within that. But it's like, once you understand those that it's like, okay, now I can see, this is the journey, these two are gonna go on, we're gonna have to, like, come together and run this place, or whatever. And here's who's going to be against us. And here's where the comedy could come in between the three of us. And so, understanding those, it's called an arc like season arc, and character arc, like, you know, it'll be like, so we knew like in Flatbush, for example, it's like you have Dan and Kevin. So okay, they're living together. Kevin is staying on Dan's couch. Right. Okay. That's the dynamic up top. And then we knew like, okay, drew the character of drew that Hassan Johnson plays, like, he's gonna come in, and he's gonna ruin your lives. It's tornado, right? That not only like, yeah, like uproots our lives, but like, now, he's going to come between our different takes on on Drew as like a presence in our lives is going to fuck up our dynamic and our friendship. So it's like, figuring that out that it's like, okay, that's like the conflict. And that's where the comedy comes in. And then a lot of the other stuff of just like, then ultimately, it's like, okay, you could have my guy work in a bike shop or you could have him work at a deli. It doesn't matter. Like, like, that's all kind of like window dressing. But understanding that's the core. These are the key character dynamics that that's stepdad really wants to be my stepdad like, these are the core, like character dynamics, and these are how the worlds can kind of like intersect. Got it?
Blue 19:55
And I mean, when you're going to even these production houses, are you going in and saying, Hey, I need xx budget to do this, like, is that part of the pitch at a certain point?
Dan Perlman 20:03
Not really. But it is an advantage. I do think and this should be like inspiring to like a lot of to creatives and people aspiring to do creative stuff is when you make stuff yourself and show that you can make something yourself for very cheap. Yeah, that's a good thing. Like that's because the cheaper you are, the more likely they are to leave you alone. Because you're if you're not, if for Game of Thrones, they have to account for every dollar, it's a Marvel movies, they have to account for every dollar because they're putting $500 million dollars into the movie, so they can't lose, they need to know, they're gonna make $10 trillion on it. Got it, because they're putting so much money. And like, we were so cheap compared to some of these other shows. So we had, it was some of the like, least amount of notes they'd given on a scripted show. And part of that was because they're happy with the quality. But another part is because we don't have the budget that Game of Thrones. Yeah. So they can just be like, we're just like, yeah, we want to have Kareem, like, hop around. And they're like, sure, whatever. You know what I mean? Like, there's some flexibility that that buys you and when you show you can do it for not that much. For for their sake, like not that much for them. For us. It's still like, This is crazy. Yeah. But to them, it's like it's money. Yeah. So that's like, the, the less you ask for, and the more you show, you can handle some small amount. Like that's a good thing. And so I think having that proof of concept where it's like, we had no budget for that. We had funding for the web series. You know,
Blue 21:34
we you like sneaking into buildings and stuff is like
Dan Perlman 21:37
bribing janitors, and we're like begging people in like bodegas to let us shoot that we're stealing shots on the subway. And so by doing all that shit, they're like, Oh, these guys are just running around making some videos. So it's like, if you think could do that with nothing, what if we actually put you know, not that much for us resources behind it? I think that was like appealing to them.
Blue 21:59
Like, before this process? Did you have like a starving artists like cycle at any point? Did you kind of deal with that and your personal life?
Dan Perlman 22:08
What do you mean the cycle where you're just like, Alright,
Blue 22:11
I'm broke. But this has to work. Well, what were you doing to kind of get income like before you actually get a show Tom saying that we're investing here? Oh, I
Dan Perlman 22:20
had all kinds of jobs. So I would I do I assisted in a preschool i Whoa. Did all kinds of temp jobs. I sold mattresses at a Costco I worked as a visitor services host in a museum. I I tutored, that was another thing I did for years because I had that education, background and training. So you just do a lot of different stuff to try to I worked at Sirius XM like a radio show, just answering phones. So just buying things to kind of like, you know, to give you give yourself enough flexibility to still be able to like do comedy and try to make shit. But also but yeah, you could keep keep going. You know? And yeah, you do stand up be like, you know, you're going and doing shows after you work and going to Philly and taking like an overnight Greyhound back like after the thing. So you could be there under the bus or wherever you got to work. Yeah. All that shit, man. Yeah, I've just got very, very familiar with the Hudson Yards. But yeah, so anything to kind of like to keep going, you know? And to be able to like, Oh, when I want to, you know, if we want to like film this thing, like, how do we carve out enough time? And how do you figure out how to do that for for cheap. You know?
Blue 23:40
Will you ever like you know, this isn't going to work? I'm done. I'm given this dream up. But did you feel like oh, yeah, so let's I want to hit I want to hear about those stories. Yeah,
Dan Perlman 23:48
I mean, I mean, it's so off, you kind of keep going, because because you have enough positive reinforcement that you're like, you accumulate them over time, where you're like, Okay, I know, I'm, like good at this or can do this. But then there's so many moments where you're like, like when he did that, that pilot, right? So it's like you have this great cast, and you have this, you do this table read. That's when you read the script. Yeah, sitting around and the network is there. And they're like, oh, they like make a note. And they're like, I don't know about that. And you're like, Okay, I don't know what to expect. I guess that feels good. And then I go downstairs, and then I'm in the parking lot. My friends given me a ride home. And I got a call from our manager at the time being like, they're done with it. I make it out of the build. Wow. And so it's like, it's like, oh, that could just say Yeah, and so at first you're like, Well, I guess it'll, it'll be okay. But then you're like, I don't know, you know what I mean? But then it's like, okay, well, how do I just keep go? And I do think so much of our most creative stuff comes in those moments of desperation. I think when you're like, I don't know what else to do. I think that sort of frees you to tap into this kind of, like, lack of inhibition and sort of like, freedom of expression that you that we might hesitate, you know, yeah, I think there is something to that, you know, and so it's just kind of keeping it enough that you feel some kind of fuel to keep going, you know, and that's
Blue 25:21
the scary part because I think so many creatives, they, you get to that point where you might leave something right before it's the right time. You only live with regrets after that. Right? If you do leave it
Dan Perlman 25:32
right. So and I do think like, you know, when we look at, like, whether it's musicians, or filmmakers, or anything, like, writers, like we love their early ship the most Yeah, a reason for that is because it's a struggle, because it's so hard to get that first ship made. Yes. And so I think in that struggle, and in that compromise, and in those adjustments you have to make and like, Okay, how do I get it done? What you can barrel through ends up being so fucking cool. And so you feel the energy, you know, I watched somebody's movie A few weeks ago. This is Movie actual people, this filmmaker kit, Zaha who she made it for, like, $10,000. And I was watching it, and I was like it. I loved it so much, not because it was perfect, but because you could feel the energy behind it, it was her first feature. And you could just feel the kind of like, urgency to get that shit out there. It was so fucking cool. And inspiring to see that, you know, and I think that's like, that's the most inspiring shit. You know. And when you see a lot of our favorite people, we love their early shifts, using setting all this money, yeah, it becomes bloated, and bad. And nobody's saying no to them. And I guess it's interesting, or there might still be something there. But I do think when there's that resistance, and you really have to, like, figure out a way to get that shit through. I think some like really cool shit comes out of that. So it's tough because it's those are the times you're the most frustrated us and just slamming your head against the wall being like, why the fuck can I just get anything to just get out there? Yeah, but on the other side, like that's when some of the coolest shit comes, you know?
Blue 27:16
Does that ever make you scared as a creative now because it's Flatbush. Like you're Illmatic. Now do you like this? Does it ever make you scared?
Dan Perlman 27:25
I don't know. Well, you know, I guess not feeling. Not feeling too famous or successful, I think helps with that. So it always feels like it always does feel like okay, you just have to kind of like do it again. And I do think stand up. It instills you with that feel and because you know if that saying of like, you only feel as good as your most recent show. So, if the last show and great, you're like, Oh, that feels really good. But if a bomb, then you're bombI? Like, have I ever been good? Like you kind of like, you question yourself all the time. You're like, I don't know if I've ever been good at this. And I feel that all the time. Like, I felt great after a show recently. And then I was coming home and I was just kind of like laughing myself being like, man, if that had gone, like worse, I would have been coming home in a much worse mood, I would have been like, why am I doing this? Why am I leaving my home to go and get stared at by by drunk strangers, you know, like, you feel that all the time. But so yeah, I mean, I Yeah, it's funny how that has been, I do think you just kind of reset and keep going. And so that's, I do feel good in that regard, where it's like, okay, I know what I know what got me to that point of being able to do Flatbush, and that was just like, I just wake up and do my thing. And just, you know, just open my computer and just go whether I'm sitting in a coffee shop, and waiting to do an open mic. Like when I was starting doing comedy, or, you know, I'm just trying to deliver these scripts, because there's a network waiting for it. It's the same routine, same exact routine. It's just whether anybody's waiting on it or not. So it's just when it's self discipline, and I'm just doing this myself, then it's like, okay, I'm just doing what the routine is, you know,
Blue 29:13
so what was that moment like for you when you got the call of the meeting that So Tom's invested in want to move forward with this thing?
Dan Perlman 29:22
It was it was funny, because it was like, again, it always comes in those moments where you're like, you're like, I don't know, and I was aware that I was aware that the that decision was going to be made one way or the other. It was so late September 2020. So it was like mid COVID. Nothing was happening. Yeah, like you're just kind of like stressing, living in a basement apartment in Flatbush where like when they showed me the place to sublet, they're like and we have a washer dryer and they pointed to thing and it says out of order. Just like I'll tell ya, I'm here and Did you know I was just I was working and it was I had to do something where I could work remote. So I was, I was working for this like real estate company where it was like, it was like people were calling, I don't know, it was like an intermediary between the realtor and the broker. So I'm just like, I was just on a shift, you know. And they called and said that. I was like, right. And I was in a good mood, the rest of my shift. It's totally my last couple of weeks. But yeah, and so. So yeah, it was very exciting. But then it was just like, okay, cool. Well, by that point, the development process is very long, like, we pitched it, early 2019. It wasn't till late September 2020, that they ordered the thing. So it's like, a waiting game. So that's what's so funny, because you're like mad, because they were like, we're making an offer for you to write the pilot and the second episode, and then we'll decide from there, okay, if we're gonna make a series or not. So it felt like, it felt like the first script was the battle. And once they approved that, then I was like, Okay, I think I think I get what the sort of like, recipe of things they like is, you know, what I mean? Like, what the right sort of ingredients are, you know, and once you sort of, like, start to figure out that code a little bit, then it's like, Okay, I think I think I think we could do that. Yeah.
Blue 31:26
But the crazy part is not only are you writing the thing, you're acting in it, right? You're directing in some cases.
Dan Perlman 31:34
Yeah. But that's like, the acting, you have an advantage of, because you're writing it. Okay. So I know. And we know from stand up, like, Okay, I know, I could say this line and have this joke hit like, you could write it more towards your own voice, which you've developed from stand up, you want to get auditions for other things, I have no idea what the fuck I'm doing. Again, because I'm not a trained actor. I don't know how to be if they want me to like audition to play Lincoln, which they would never ask. But if they wanted me to do that, I would have no idea what I'm doing, I would have no fucking idea. But I could write some version of me where I could just say it within my within yourself, because that's the one thing you figure out and stand up, you figure out how to be funny, within your own voice. Got it. And so once you do that, then it's like, okay, well, that's, that's fine. So I was just trying not to think about that as much as possible in terms of the, the acting, so it was really just like, the writing of like, okay, if we can make the scripts good. And then we can surround it with comedians who are funny, you know, you're just trying to, like, put all the right pieces in place. And then I was like, I was like, of them. I was like, I just want to like, kind of like Steve Kerr this thing, if I could, I know, we can put the Golden State Warriors around, you know what I mean? And Hassan And Kareem, and all these people, like there, and I'll just like, if you put them there, like the magic ways, just like Let's go, you know,
Blue 33:01
okay. What was it like for you going through that casting process of choosing these people? Were these people you had in mind while you were writing? Or was it once it was alright, we're on Showtime. Now we got to get these people in here.
Dan Perlman 33:14
It was a good mix well, because a lot of them a lot of the comedians were in the web series initially. So Kareem Greene, who plays my stepdad was in the web series. And Yamaneika Saunders who plays my therapist who just yells at me alive. She was in the web series. So a lot of the commentary caught it who was a writer on the show also was assigned to add one Hassan Yeah, joined for. For the Showtime series, Hassan and Kristen Dodson, who plays Xena were the two like, significant add ons. And, and I knew Yeah, so Hassan didn't audition. We just assumed with him, because it was COVID. And he was like, I'm out. I like the web series would love to work with you guys. And we're like, okay, great. I mean, because I was like, the
Blue 34:03
AI the thing I know, that's what he says, yeah. How much practice Have you seen?
Dan Perlman 34:12
Yeah, I mean, that's the thing was like, because it was like, you know, I knew he was a great actor. I didn't know how funny he was. Okay, so that was, that was what I wasn't. I didn't know until he came on set. Got it. And I was like, Man, this guy is so fucking funny. He has this like, amazing ability, like a comedian to like, say, to say lines, totally within his voice, and have it still be fun. It's like a pitcher, like Greg Maddux, you know, he would have like, he would have like, throw the pitch like, the way it should. I'm like, Man, how does he have that control? And that's how I feel about every one of Hassan's line readings where like he could have lions hit where I'm like, that's not even a joke. Like I don't know how he had this show. There was like, I always think of some random episode. So to where it's like, Zayn is upset because she isn't going to get to dance for like halftime at the basketball game. And she says that to Hassan, and it sounds like you're the best dancer, though. That's not a joke. Yeah,
Blue 35:13
what is hilarious, I'm
Dan Perlman 35:14
laughing in time. Like, I don't know how he does it. So he has this like, amazing ability where he can say like, and also he has this ability, where he's so fucking likable, where it's like, you can watch them and be like, I believe he could kill Dan and Kevin. But also, I believe it, but also, I would still kind of be on his side, like, we'd still be kind of funny. But I also buy it, and it would still feel like he's just incredibly endearing. While he can also be tough, like, eat totally within himself, and not even require like, a huge flip. He's staying the same guy the whole way, which is like a tightrope to walk us. And He does it so easily. It's crazy.
Blue 35:52
Now, I almost feel like it made me assist what I'm selecting when I'm watching all the streaming services and everything, but I feel like there are so many stories now where you're just watching the characters make bad decisions and get screaming at the screen. So I mean, firstly, how fun is it for you to write it in that way? And then secondly, is it really something where a lot of writers have realized this is what people like, so we're going to keep dishing this out?
Dan Perlman 36:20
I don't know. I don't know in terms of like, if other people would realize that. But for me, it's like, it's so fun to do that, like I don't want, especially when it's like some version of you know, when I watch somebody who's like, I know, they're writing a thing for themselves. Like, I just don't want to watch a guy who's like really killing it in life and somebody right writing themselves being really charming, and just like fucking alive, just like I'm making a lot of money. I want to watch somebody make active wrong choices, and just barrel ahead. Like, that's so funny to me. And so, yeah, putting my guy in spots where he's, like, actively, actively, just like barreling ahead in the wrong way. And he's this guy, My guy is like trying so hard to get love from all of these places that do not reciprocate it. He is like really trying to teach and the kids don't want to hear it. He's really trying to coach basketball. And he's not any good at it alone and really pursuing this love interests that are like not feel it. He's pursuing this friendship with Kevin who's over the dynamic like, and the only respect where he's getting that love back is like from Kareem, who's a stepdad. And he's, like, overbearing, so real again. So it is these people were like, Hi, I'm here. You're like, yeah, I don't want it. Yeah, but anybody who's not offering it, you're like, Well, why are you offering it? So? Putting that guy in those spots? I'm like, Oh, that's so fun. But it's also sad, but playing that dynamic out. Feels very fun.
Blue 37:50
How far ahead? Did you write? And the reason I asked this is that with a lot of shows, I also feel that you have those changes, like when it comes to season two? Yeah. Is it something where, hey, you wrote most of season one. And then you're like, Alright, cool, you got the extension? We got to figure out what we're gonna write next. It was that process, okay?
Dan Perlman 38:11
Because season one, like ends on some cliffhangers and stuff. And then we started meeting it was like, Oh, well, what are we gonna do for season two? Or like, I don't know, like you there was no, you just kind of right at, because you get the season order. And so you can plan for season two. But it's one of those things where it's like, you can plan your life five years ahead. But what good does that do you know what I mean? You can only you only know, day by day to a certain point. So yeah, so we wrote all the first season, and then you figure out a little onset, and then once you get into the room for the second season, then we start figuring out what those are. So that's why like, in between seasons, you'll see like, you know, there's some like environment like setting shifts, like Okay, now we'll do na will be a storyline and the bike shop, story and the art fellowship. So you find these like new worlds to tap into. And so that's why it's like, each season kind of feels like its own book, its own piece, album, whatever it is, you know, what I mean? Where it's like, that's what because you're, you're doing that as a whole, you know,
Blue 39:14
then I mean, nowadays, social media, you get that instant feedback. How much of that? Do you even consider when you're going into a season to do you try to figure out who the favorite characters were the write more towards them because of that.
Dan Perlman 39:28
That's not so much. I mean, you read it because it's fun to read. You know what I mean? It's honestly fun. And, you know, also speaking, because nobody was to me and you know, so that was nice. But no, it's not that you write to the favorite characters, but you do write to what you saw, you saw worked, you know, so you figure out like, Oh, these two played off each other really well. Or a big thing was also like, when we were writing season one we didn't know Hassan was going to be drew we didn't know Kristen was going to be Anna and Kristen like that Xana character is a character that like, if somebody else was playing the part it might feel much sad or it might feel because she can feel very like put upon she has a lot of sad should happen or but Kristen imbued her with so much like warmth and energy that you always felt like, Oh, she's gonna be okay, you know, which is not easy to do and comedy also she was like very funny with a lot of her shit very easily so. So I think seeing that, like you're writing with the person's voice in mind, which makes the writing better initially because you you can imagine a person you can know what is going to work for them the same way I was saying like, Oh, I know what jokes I can hit like, you know, oh, Hassan's gonna make that work. Kristen is going to make that work and it makes those characters stronger from the jump also. And then yeah, people will write what's fun, as you'd see, I would see. I like the different interpretations of people being like, that character drives me insane. Or people like, Xena makes me so fucking angry. She's so selfish boba. And so people are like, Dad is the villain like, oh, wow, those different takes. And that's so funny to me that you can watch it and not have a clear like, that person's the enemy, that person's whatever, just based on your own, whatever you're like, I feel like I'm that guy. Or like, I feel like I'm her fuckup you know, like, yeah, it all feels fun. You know,
Blue 41:26
I mean, for me, I said, I appreciated 20 roti shot, but when it came to trying to figure out the different communities are included, right? There's elements, African elements, there's Caribbean elements, did you get any negative feedback from that, or what was kind of the feedback you got in, in trying to put those elements in?
Dan Perlman 41:43
I feel like a lot of it, that I that I saw was, was positive. Which is, which is good. Because I mean, like, you know, and I can't I can't take any sort of credit for that. I feel like I have to, like give all of that credit to, to Kevin and the crew. And the the writers, you know, like, we had so many people who are involved in it, who I think we're giving next. It's like, I couldn't, I couldn't write any sort of authentic Trini experience or like having black women in the writers room who could, like write to Zane his character? Like, I've never been a black teenage girl, like, What the fuck do I know? So like, but But again, it's like putting those everybody in place and empowering them to, to have a voice and to express themselves. And then we could come to some discussion of like, okay, and then within that within those details, what makes sense, like, character arc wise, and what makes sense for all the other chess pieces? And how do we play them? And if we move this one here, how do we move that one? And how does it all impact each other? That's where this sort of, like 10,000 foot view of it all comes in, you know, but I feel like, that meant a lot that people were positive about it. Because it's like, you know, worse than, like, no representation is like misrepresentation. And so you don't want to walk into that. And so, I feel like that, that's where everybody sort of collectively, you know, it's very much a group effort, when you see those award show speeches, and everybody's throwing out 1000 names, and you're like, who are they talking about, but you really do want to throw out all of those names. Every single person, so it's like, you watch the credits, after a movie, or a show with more appreciation, because you're like, that's what I didn't know before. Doing the show is like, you know, from production designers to like, costume to hair and makeup, like to be good in those departments. Like you have to not just know like, oh, what costumes to get, but like, where is this character? Like, mentally? Where are they? At the start of the season? Where are they? If it's morning, like, how would they you know, you read the script, and they break it down from this crazy detailed level that really just like elevates the whole thing. And then it makes your writing better because you're seeing that stuff that they're considering more and that makes you consider it more in future stuff. So it's really cool. It's really cool and collaborative, and fun. And once you're in that energy you just want to be in that energy all the time. You know,
Blue 44:11
was there anyone out there in the world that it surprised you when you find out they were watching the show?
Dan Perlman 44:21
Yeah, yes. Shirt loose. There is some there is some tweets anytime anybody in the NBA, either current or former, like tweeted about it. I was like, Oh, that's pretty cool. So that was fun. But no. Shark Charlaine I Phil who was like one of the like high up people at the Southern Poverty Law Center, who I like just seen on 60 minutes. Like some clip. She was like, oh, Kareem sang dead baby pigeon to the face was one of my favorites. I like goofy shit. Like this is so fucking doable that some like high, influential person like working with like government. Yeah, it was like I was like oh, that's pretty cool. Yeah sounds cool. Yeah so any anytime somebody with a serious job God liked our stupid shit that feels fun because you're a quotable now yeah. Oh, that's that I didn't think we were writing that that anybody who has any kind of like real job stupid little like back of the room you
Blue 45:36
know they use it in the vernacular, it's like a regular dis
Dan Perlman 45:40
mucking around in the back of the class, but that's like, oh, the teachers liked it. Do you know?
Blue 45:44
Are you MBA guy? I mean, you got to build us a reference earlier. We'll see a team.
Dan Perlman 45:50
Well, I grew up a Knicks fan, okay, one of my early I was just telling a friend, because he was like, I've never been to a playoff game. One of my earliest memories that I before I even knew what was going on was Charles Smith missing those three layups against the bowls, and my dad hanging his head. We were at the game. Wow. High up into there, and we're there. And I just remember I vaguely remember it, but I just remember my dad hanging his head in his hands. And me just being like, Dad, can we go and he's like, in a minute, and he just needed a minute to grapple with that. Right? The Bulls had the swarming defense, that just shut them out. But yes, I'm watching the playoffs. And that's my one thing to watch. That's why it was fun making my guy a failed like a struggling assistant coach on the basketball team.
Blue 46:38
That was the correlation right there. Yeah, I
Dan Perlman 46:39
was like, That's a fun world. Yeah. My guy with no skills would be in that.
Blue 46:44
My my brothers tried to make me a Knicks fan when I was young, but then kind of when they were going against the rockets, and OJ drove across the screen, that was it for me. Like, yeah,
Dan Perlman 46:53
that's right. Up to the final. White Bronco. Yes.
Blue 46:56
And I didn't know who OJ Simpson was. I'm like, Who the hell is this guy? Why are they stopping the farmers for this guy? Like, put it back on? I'm like, You know what, I can't do this anymore. I was like, 11 years ago. I'm a Lakers fan. Now.
Dan Perlman 47:09
That's true. They would not have cut in on the way Exactly. Lakers were at it. It would have kept going. No. Magic. That's it. That's a Patrick Ewing.
Blue 47:23
So going back to the Showtime piece, you landed season two. Right. But then after that, I want to go into this part. Right. So they did do the cancellation. Yeah. Right. So what was what was that moment for you like knowing that you had these two seasons? Yeah, got it under the belt? This is more than a previous show that you got into boxes? Hands? Sure. Was that a devastating moment for you?
Dan Perlman 47:48
Honestly, it wasn't, because, I mean, I kind of I that's how I kind of thought it would go. Okay. I thought, I guess I thought I was like, that's probably that's probably it after two. And there's a lot of there's always a billion factors. You know, when you're just looking at a shot from the outside, you're like, oh, they should bring it here, there. But then you learn, like, there's all this like, internal stuff with a million different stakeholders for why a thing can continue or can't is the same, like basketball or teams or bands or whatever, like there's a million reasons, like why things go the way they do. But no, it really was like, for me, it was like, it was genuine, like, it was genuine gratitude and appreciation for getting to make two seasons of a thing, because it's so fucking hard to get to get it there and get a thing out there. And to have the people who liked it like it to the extent that they did, like, that meant a lot, you know, it really did. And so I think it was just kind of a chance to, like, really appreciate because when you're in it, you're so in it, that you can't like, step back, like feel it and see it with any sort of appreciation, because you're just like, well, I just gotta I gotta get the script done. Or I gotta give notes on this cut, I got to just do go go go like to the next thing. But getting the step back and like and have people express how much they liked it or how that it helped them during this time, or that time people reaching out and those personal messages like you do read them. And it does mean a lot because, you know, it's like an intimate thing when you when people see something and connect with it, and all that. So that meant a lot. No, if I'm being honest, the thing that bugged me more, because the cancellation I'm like, Okay, well the thing exists and will always exist. But then recently, they had to take it off streamers because there's a whole thing going on right now with like, there's about to be a writer's strike. Oh boy. So this is why, if you're seeing your like, favorite shows, and They're getting pulled. And you're like, why are they taking them off? It's like, it's just this thing with residuals. And so that was more annoying to have it. Yeah. Which I think it'll go back on once the thing passes. But, but having a bold, you're like, well, that's annoying, because it's like, once it's there, and it exists, like, just watch, you can find it and it'll always be there. And so that was a more frustrating day. But again, all of it just shows like, you know, it's all proof that you can do that. And so places, like I was saying, are more likely to let you do another thing? Because they saw you didn't set their money on fire? You know what I mean? You made you delivered, which is not easy, you know? Yeah, for sure.
Blue 50:43
Now, even in that process, it was it ever thought I can like, how does it work in TV world? Can you then try to take your show and move it to another network? Or are you typically signing on where that network kind of owns that show? At that point,
Dan Perlman 50:56
they kind of they kind of own it's like one of those things where it's like, you could maybe take it elsewhere, but it's like, generally, when you see that stuff moved to a network, it's usually a thing that has run for like, like, you know, five, six years, and then there's they already have, you know, millions of fans. They know, this is a thing over the years, they've proven this is the audience for scrubs, you know what I mean? So it's like that kind of shit. Yeah. So it's just there. And so it gets tougher, it gets tougher when it's anything short of that. But again, it's there. And people saw it and liked it. And then you have all these people you've worked with who you're like, I want to work with, I would work with Asana, and anything I would work. So many of these people like Roy and Maria, like all these amazing people and on the crew also. So all of that helps when you're trying to then do the next thing you know,
Blue 51:47
outside of obviously, your own show. Historically, can you give me a show that you wish had another season so you can see how it was completed?
Dan Perlman 51:57
Oh, that's a fun question. Man, I'm trying to think. I don't know. I feel like I feel like often the ones I like, I don't know, there's not not one that jumps out right there. But when I was a kid, I watched when I was a kid, I felt like a lot of those shows that we liked you watch some of the early seasons. And you're like, Oh, these aren't that good, like some of the first seasons of a lot of our favorite shows to kind of suck. But what they had then was they did give them time to sort of like find it. Yes, in a way where I'll watch some of these like shows that ended up being great. I mean, the first two seasons fucking suck.
Blue 52:36
If you look at fresh prints, they weren't like a different scene. It was a different house. They're in a different they're in a change the mother later on my switch,
Dan Perlman 52:45
like, the whole show with the earlier adversive Like, yeah, these are not that great. Yeah, there was a whole season of family matters where they didn't know if Urkel was gonna be a character Exactly. Like what is going on. He's
Blue 52:57
the main guy. They figured it out. But it's
Dan Perlman 52:59
like, but they did give them more time. So I think that's one of the things that, that you get why they don't now, but it is a shame, because it's like, I mean, like anything you figure out, you figure out what's working, you figure out. And not just like what the audience is responding to, but like, Oh, this is where we should be focusing. This is where, you know, and again, you only know that by fucking trying, trying different sort of combinations and sort of writing your way into it. And that's another thing I would say if like people trying to like, make sure it's like, I think so many people get discouraged if they don't have all the answers figured out at the beginning. When it's like with scripts or anything, it's like you sort of write your way into it, you figure it out, the more like, over multiple drafts or over multiple versions of anything. And so, like, give yourself that time to like find it, you know,
Blue 53:53
not to have spoiler alerts for anyone who hasn't caught up to all the episodes. But I mean, we kind of left off with Xena, but like yeah, if you were able to kind of even close flappers the way you wanted to, like what season would you have ended it in with what type of ending? Did you ever think that far down the line?
Dan Perlman 54:11
Yeah, I mean, you kind of think you kind of think like, for me, it's kind of like, there's always this difference, which is fun to think about of like, where do the characters want to go? And then where do they like need to go to grow as people because there's always like, what are our dreams? And then there's always like, Oh, no, but what is this person actually need? You know? Yeah, so that was fun to think about of like, okay, so like, Kevin's dream is to, like, be a successful artist, you know, but then it's like, well, what is he really, like, need that character? And like, what to me what that character needed. And this is just me like, he's never had a sense of place. You know, he moved around a lot. He was kind of a couch. Yeah, he went back home. So he's never really felt like the sense of place and purpose and And so, for me, it was like, oh, it'd be fun if you found that. Like, if you found that in Flatbush and found this like World War, it's like, he really has a purpose, you know, and is like working, even if it was like working with art, like a local level, like he didn't have to become boss, you know, right. But that's more fun. Like, oh, that's the sort of like, that's what that person needs is to feel like rooted somewhere to feel like, you sort of like settled and you've unpacked your bags, and you're like, there, and you feel like, secure and safe and all that shit. And so, and then for my guy, it's like, it would be like we're saying of like, he's saying he's getting Xanax? Sure. But also, like, he's trying is to stop trying for all these things that are not reciprocating the love. And so finding those places where it is being reciprocated, I think, would have been fun to find that kind of journey, you know? And then for Kareem, I don't know, he'd probably be mayor or something.
Blue 56:07
So now, what have you kind of turn your energy to? Is it back to our stand up? Right? Is that your main goal and focus now? Are you looking to get more into TV? Is film a different avenue that you're looking at?
Dan Perlman 56:23
Yeah, I like I liked, like, from doing TV, I liked the writing and sort of show running, directing, like all of that stuff. And so. So I have, like, new shows I'm working on that are in very early stages, and like, and wrote a movie scripts, which, you know, all this stuff takes time, like I was saying how long that pitch took after they made the offer, like, it takes all this time. But, you know, like, Okay, I've gotten it over the line before, you know, and so it's just kind of putting in the energy to do that. But that's really fun. Like, when you can be on set. And, and be in that energy. That's really fun. And a big thing that I've been thinking about even just recently, it's like, okay, how do I? How do I continue to make stuff without waiting for that? Industry approval, you know, and while while you still go for that, and and want the resources to do this, or that, like, how do I continue to create and make stuff even in the interim, so you're not just waiting on some exec, three levels up to sign off, but how do you keep making stuff? So you're continuing to hone that muscle, you know, and so that's, that's the thing that you're always thinking about that I'm always trying to like, Okay, what's that next thing to do that, but letting TV film and sort of like, creating that stuff, even if I'm not in it, because you know, if the thing, if there's a part for me, sometimes you're writing and you're like, Oh, there I am. To me, it almost seems fun. Like, I could just be in one scene and be funny, and then fuck off. But but it's still, you know, you're still setting the whole world. So it's still even stuff that I'm not, in that I've written, like, I'm all over it in terms of like, this is how I think about this stuff. And you sort of feel it out. But yeah, that's, that's the stuff I'm working on. Now.
Blue 58:15
What's more fun for you today stand up, or writing?
Dan Perlman 58:19
For me the writing is, is more fun, just because it's it kind of lets you hit other perspectives in a way that's fun. And when you're thinking about how to like, how to how to sort of like arc character characters, and how do you have a sort of beginning middle end, and then how to use like subvert expectations, and all of that, like, that feels fun. Stand up, I love and there's an immediacy, that's very fun. That will always be fun, but there is something about it about writing where you're like, how do these other characters how to stuff that is not is not just, you know? Yeah. And being forced to think outside of that, you know, one thing that's like, a fun exercise when I'm writing scripts is like, how is like, Okay, if this supporting character, if they were the main character, what would the thing look like, and that lets you think about the war, like, who is important to them who's whatever. So that, that lets you think about in a way where it's like, where you're not going to have characters that are just there to serve you and are just there to give you information, which I think helped in Flatbush because it's like, all the characters kind of have their own wants in their own worlds. And there are characters who are never thinking about, like, they don't give a shit. They have their own shit going on. So that's, that's what's really fun about writing.
Blue 59:45
What are you watching right now to kind of leave off with that.
Dan Perlman 59:50
What am I watching? Right now what did I watch? I watched succession. Okay, which I didn't watch for a while but you Again, what I like what I like about that show is I was telling my friend who writes for And Zoey winters who was on Flatbush, and if you saw the second season, she runs the art fellowship. She's on succession, and kills it. Nice. She's so good. But what I love about that show, what I love for all my favorite shows is they just find any reason to get the characters in a room together. They're like, it's the board meeting. It's the anniversary dinner. It's Thanksgiving, it's the New Year's party. It's the wedding. Like put them together and have them fucking bitch at each other and conspire together and try to fuck the other one over. Like, that's the fun is these characters in this family like, and whenever we're going to talk about the mechanics of like, oh, the company has to do this. Like, I don't give a fuck about any of that. But you just want to watch them. It's the relationship like I would suggest you watch the IEF I'd started it. Okay. I've only watched the pilot. Okay, I got pulled into something else. But yes, yeah. Is it good?
Blue 1:01:00
Yeah, I liked it. Yeah, like, and I think it's this relationship. It's yeah, totally. It's a lot of that. So that's
Dan Perlman 1:01:06
what Yeah, and it's like, in the different worlds are all fun, but it's like when you have that you're like, oh, man, that's fun.
Blue 1:01:11
And they make bad decisions. Like it's one of some bad decisions such as your situation so I guess that's the relatability of thanks
Dan Perlman 1:01:18
for sure. Yeah, yeah, berries. Another one that is good. But that where you're just watching a character like sink sink. And you're like, Man, I don't know how much darker this could get.
Blue 1:01:29
That's it but no, then I truly appreciate you stopping by Yeah, man getting the insights. Oh, yeah. It was helpful, I think and I'm looking forward to what you have next. Thanks. Good to see what's out there. It's really fun appreciate and then maybe the Busto comes out when they steal because I want to see Bill Russell 11 rings on the bus is bluedot peace
Outro 1:02:07
thanks for listening. If you enjoyed this episode of Blue dope and you'd like to help support the podcast, please share it with others post about it on social media, or leave a rating and review. To catch all the latest. You can follow the crew on Instagram at Blue dope TV
