Full Transcript for BREAKING: Foundation Phishing Attack Hits Customers - Electrum Users Lose Coins

Ben and Nathan Still in Lugano, we 80 00:03:40.060 --> 00:03:41.920 welcome back our friend, American Hoddle. Thank you 81 00:03:41.920 --> 00:03:44.180 for coming, sir. We appreciate you making time 82 00:03:44.180 --> 00:03:46.100 for us today. How you doing? Good to 83 00:03:46.100 --> 00:03:47.740 be here. My balls are more of a, 84 00:03:47.740 --> 00:03:49.420 they're more of a base, if I'm being 85 00:03:49.420 --> 00:03:52.520 honest with you. You know? I love it. 86 00:03:52.520 --> 00:03:57.100 I love it. I love balls. Very good. 87 00:03:57.100 --> 00:04:00.140 Very good. Joey has balls made of copper. 88 00:04:00.140 --> 00:04:02.620 Mine are, uh, minor of the finest Canadian 89 00:04:02.620 --> 00:04:04.840 gold, which would for sure be repatriated by 90 00:04:04.840 --> 00:04:07.060 my government when things go sideways here in 91 00:04:07.060 --> 00:04:08.300 my country. Does you have to do a 92 00:04:08.300 --> 00:04:11.100 land acknowledgement on your balls? Uh, I should 93 00:04:11.100 --> 00:04:12.180 have to. I don't know if they're going 94 00:04:12.180 --> 00:04:14.180 to enforce that at any point, but, um, 95 00:04:14.180 --> 00:04:15.760 given the way things are going over here, 96 00:04:15.760 --> 00:04:17.240 they'll put me in jail if I don't. 97 00:04:17.240 --> 00:04:21.080 So, yeah, these are, these balls are on 98 00:04:21.080 --> 00:04:23.360 stolen Algonquin land. That's right. Just like to 99 00:04:23.360 --> 00:04:26.640 acknowledge that. Don't get me started. Okay, so, 100 00:04:26.640 --> 00:04:29.220 uh, as you heard the intro, foundation, we 101 00:04:29.220 --> 00:04:30.060 have, we have spoken, we have spoken a 102 00:04:30.060 --> 00:04:31.260 lot about foundation over the last of a 103 00:04:31.260 --> 00:04:34.940 while. Almost all positive. They've been at the 104 00:04:34.940 --> 00:04:37.640 kind of forefront of a number of different 105 00:04:37.640 --> 00:04:39.820 initiatives as far as like, you know, modernizing 106 00:04:39.820 --> 00:04:41.820 their devices, adding some features that the cold 107 00:04:41.820 --> 00:04:43.480 card had in the wake of that issue 108 00:04:43.480 --> 00:04:46.540 a few months ago. And Zach, obviously, has 109 00:04:46.540 --> 00:04:48.760 been in this chat, actually, in the in 110 00:04:48.760 --> 00:04:50.940 the show chat talking about some of the 111 00:04:50.940 --> 00:04:53.880 stuff they're doing. But as the story goes, 112 00:04:53.880 --> 00:04:56.200 they are not immune to this either, unfortunately. 113 00:04:56.200 --> 00:04:58.720 So they also had a pretty significant leak 114 00:04:58.720 --> 00:05:02.140 23 ,000 plus fishing emails went out after 115 00:05:02.140 --> 00:05:04.080 their back end was, or I guess a 116 00:05:04.080 --> 00:05:08.340 communications back end was upended by some attacker. 117 00:05:08.340 --> 00:05:10.440 Zach has been pretty vocal about this on 118 00:05:10.440 --> 00:05:12.520 Twitter, you know, giving a little bit, I 119

00:05:12.520 --> 00:05:13.900 think, of reprieve to people who have the 120 00:05:13.900 --> 00:05:16.920 devices, they're safe and, you know, sucks that 121 00:05:16.920 --> 00:05:19.280 your data's out there now. I don't think 122 00:05:19.280 --> 00:05:21.680 they know exactly how much is out there, 123 00:05:21.680 --> 00:05:25.000 but, you know, it's probably as it says 124 00:05:25.000 --> 00:05:29.260 here, your mailing address, phone number, emails, pretty 125 00:05:29.260 --> 00:05:31.740 tough, very, very tough look, given the number 126 00:05:31.740 --> 00:05:34.160 of wrench attacks, obviously. But this is the 127 00:05:34.160 --> 00:05:37.000 thing that I'm most concerned about, putting aside 128 00:05:37.000 --> 00:05:40.080 this great handle on Twitter. This guy has 129 00:05:40.080 --> 00:05:43.060 a device and tweets to Foundation and reply 130 00:05:43.060 --> 00:05:44.580 to the announcement about the hack. I'm a 131 00:05:44.580 --> 00:05:46.160 little disappointed here. I took the time to 132 00:05:46.160 --> 00:05:48.620 email you guys asking to have any and 133 00:05:48.620 --> 00:05:50.800 all of my personal data deleted from Foundation's 134 00:05:50.800 --> 00:05:52.980 end. I was replied to on a burner 135 00:05:52.980 --> 00:05:55.240 email account that I provided for confirmation and 136 00:05:55.240 --> 00:05:57.300 given assurances, blah, blah, blah, blah. and then 137 00:05:57.300 --> 00:05:59.040 he posted a picture of the phishing email 138 00:05:59.040 --> 00:06:03.000 he got with all his info blurred out. 139 00:06:03.000 --> 00:06:07.700 That is like, I think, very, very damaging. 140 00:06:07.700 --> 00:06:09.780 And I don't want to say for sure 141 00:06:09.780 --> 00:06:12.520 that Zach was vocal about whether or not 142 00:06:12.520 --> 00:06:14.360 Cold Card had done something similar. They were 143 00:06:14.360 --> 00:06:18.500 accused of that when their leak happened, that 144 00:06:18.500 --> 00:06:20.580 when people were getting emails about upgrading their 145 00:06:20.580 --> 00:06:22.540 firmware. They were saying, well, wait a minute, 146 00:06:22.540 --> 00:06:24.000 how do you have my information? You're supposed 147 00:06:24.000 --> 00:06:25.840 to delete this information right after I buy 148 00:06:25.840 --> 00:06:26.980 it or 30 days after. after I buy 149 00:06:26.980 --> 00:06:29.020 it, and I bought this device years ago. 150 00:06:29.020 --> 00:06:30.640 I don't know how you guys are reaching 151 00:06:30.640 --> 00:06:32.160 out to me. I'd have to go back 152 00:06:32.160 --> 00:06:33.600 and look and see what Zach said. So 153 00:06:33.600 --> 00:06:34.440 I don't want to put words in his 154 00:06:34.440 --> 00:06:38.180 mouth. But obviously, this is a pretty significant 155 00:06:38.180 --> 00:06:39.480 hack. We're going to talk a little bit 156 00:06:39.480 --> 00:06:40.760 more about some of the stuff going on 157 00:06:40.760 --> 00:06:42.340 on on the hardware side. But I'll start 158 00:06:42.340 --> 00:06:45.640 with you since you're the guest. I mean, 159 00:06:45.640 --> 00:06:49.660 it's tough, but certainly there's some responsibility here 160 00:06:49.660 --> 00:06:52.100 that's not, in my view, being taken quite 161 00:06:52.100 --> 00:06:55.100 as seriously as it should be. Yeah, man, 162 00:06:55.100 --> 00:06:59.020 I think that, we're in a dark forest 163 00:06:59.020 --> 00:07:01.200 right now, you know, with the AI hacking 164 00:07:01.200 --> 00:07:04.680 stuff. And, you know, like, is this AI, 165 00:07:04.680 --> 00:07:06.700 is it not? What certainly has happened recently 166 00:07:06.700 --> 00:07:09.860 is that the AI has made it possible 167 00:07:09.860 --> 00:07:12.300 to do an unreasonable amount of work in 168 00:07:12.300 --> 00:07:14.220 order to gain access to certain systems. And 169 00:07:14.220 --> 00:07:15.420 a lot, we're finding out that a lot 170 00:07:15.420 --> 00:07:18.040 of security was actually predicated on the idea 171 00:07:18.040 --> 00:07:20.020 that, well, this would cause somebody would have 172 00:07:20.020 --> 00:07:21.440 to do an unreasonable amount of work. And 173 00:07:21.440 --> 00:07:22.440 it's like, okay, well, we now have a 174 00:07:22.440 --> 00:07:24.500 machine that does an unreasonable amount of work. 175 00:07:24.500 --> 00:07:27.000 And so we're expecting. many more systems to 176 00:07:27.000 --> 00:07:28.720 be breached, to be hacked, for people to 177 00:07:28.720 --> 00:07:30.800 be doxed, for information to be gone. And 178 00:07:30.800 --> 00:07:32.680 it seems that people aren't, I think part 179 00:07:32.680 --> 00:07:33.960 of the thing that's shocking about it is 180 00:07:33.960 --> 00:07:37.300 that, especially in Bitcoin, especially after Cold Card, 181 00:07:37.300 --> 00:07:39.880 there was a lot of, you know, bloviating 182 00:07:39.880 --> 00:07:41.800 from this company, right, and from many other 183 00:07:41.800 --> 00:07:45.060 competitors of Cold Card. This company, because they 184 00:07:45.060 --> 00:07:47.060 had had particular bad blood with NVK in 185 00:07:47.060 --> 00:07:49.100 the past. And, you know, a lot of, 186 00:07:49.100 --> 00:07:50.540 like, we're, this isn't going to happen to 187 00:07:50.540 --> 00:07:51.880 us. We're the best, blah, blah, blah. And 188 00:07:51.880 --> 00:07:53.880 it's like, okay, well, pick your poison, I 189 00:07:53.880 --> 00:07:55.720 guess. Do you want somebody to come to 190 00:07:55.720 --> 00:07:57.620 your house? the fucking gun or do you 191 00:07:57.620 --> 00:07:59.600 want your Bitcoin to teleport in the middle 192 00:07:59.600 --> 00:08:01.160 of the night because you didn't do a 193 00:08:01.160 --> 00:08:03.200 dice roll or whatever so both are extremely 194 00:08:03.200 --> 00:08:06.840 bad scenarios and you know i think basically 195 00:08:06.840 --> 00:08:08.920 what we're finding out is that human code 196 00:08:08.920 --> 00:08:11.580 is shit it's just pure shit and uh

197 00:08:11.580 --> 00:08:13.960 that all these like devs are basically no 198 00:08:13.960 --> 00:08:16.000 different than like a plumber and we've we've 199 00:08:16.000 --> 00:08:17.860 listened for 10 or 15 years we've been 200 00:08:17.860 --> 00:08:19.440 listening to them talk about how only they 201 00:08:19.440 --> 00:08:20.520 can do what they do and it turns 202 00:08:20.520 --> 00:08:21.760 out the computer can do what they do 203 00:08:21.760 --> 00:08:23.280 and if all they do is manage the 204 00:08:23.280 --> 00:08:24.700 fucking computer then what the fuck is the 205 00:08:24.700 --> 00:08:26.580 difference between them and you you, you're a 206 00:08:26.580 --> 00:08:29.860 dev too, we're all devs, I have clawed. 207 00:08:29.860 --> 00:08:31.140 Look, I'm a dev, you know what I 208 00:08:31.140 --> 00:08:36.180 mean? Like, it's fucking stupid. So, I think 209 00:08:36.180 --> 00:08:39.860 that people need to realize how quickly the 210 00:08:39.860 --> 00:08:41.780 landscape has shifted underneath. This is the big 211 00:08:41.780 --> 00:08:44.280 takeaway for me. The landscape has shifted so 212 00:08:44.280 --> 00:08:46.100 fast. You have to start using these tools 213 00:08:46.100 --> 00:08:48.360 immediately. You have to hit the ground running, 214 00:08:48.360 --> 00:08:49.800 and you can't just sit around in a 215 00:08:49.800 --> 00:08:52.000 place of inertia and think that whatever you 216 00:08:52.000 --> 00:08:53.900 did, like, two years ago is good. Whatever 217 00:08:53.900 --> 00:08:55.620 you did six months ago, it even is 218 00:08:55.620 --> 00:08:57.540 good. you have to go back and re 219 00:08:57.540 --> 00:08:59.500 -examine all your priors. Like, what I've been 220 00:08:59.500 --> 00:09:01.340 doing since all this shit's been going, since 221 00:09:01.340 --> 00:09:03.140 Cold Card, which was, what, like, three and 222 00:09:03.140 --> 00:09:04.940 a half months ago or something, I've just 223 00:09:04.940 --> 00:09:07.660 been sort of every day, like, dedicating, I 224 00:09:07.660 --> 00:09:09.940 don't know, two, three hours to cybersecurity, as 225 00:09:09.940 --> 00:09:11.760 though that's, like, you know, my part -time 226 00:09:11.760 --> 00:09:14.980 job, and just going back over my setup 227 00:09:14.980 --> 00:09:17.000 and back over my ops, like, back over 228 00:09:17.000 --> 00:09:20.480 passwords, back over dependencies, back, all that shit. 229 00:09:20.480 --> 00:09:22.440 And I think, like, the fact that companies 230 00:09:22.440 --> 00:09:25.140 aren't out there doing it, especially Bitcoin companies, 231 00:09:25.140 --> 00:09:27.060 is fucked. And if they are doing it 232 00:09:27.060 --> 00:09:28.520 and things are falling through the cracks, then 233 00:09:28.520 --> 00:09:29.740 it's even more fucked. I don't know. The 234 00:09:29.740 --> 00:09:31.680 whole thing is fucked. You know, it's like, 235 00:09:31.680 --> 00:09:33.120 you tell your people to get a hardware 236 00:09:33.120 --> 00:09:34.660 wall. Get your shit off the exchange. Okay, 237 00:09:34.660 --> 00:09:36.180 get a hardware wall, right? Where do you 238 00:09:36.180 --> 00:09:37.320 get it from? You get it from fucking 239 00:09:37.320 --> 00:09:39.540 a third party? Oh, there's a little device 240 00:09:39.540 --> 00:09:41.180 inside that reads the fucking screen. So all 241 00:09:41.180 --> 00:09:44.480 the fancy, complicated, this shit, this fucking thing. 242 00:09:44.480 --> 00:09:47.300 All the fancy, complicated fucking secure elements in 243 00:09:47.300 --> 00:09:49.200 this thing. They don't mean shit, because you 244 00:09:49.200 --> 00:09:51.540 can just read the fucking screen, same screen 245 00:09:51.540 --> 00:09:53.660 that you're reading. That's a trusted, that's like 246 00:09:53.660 --> 00:09:55.500 a third party provider. Then you go get 247 00:09:55.500 --> 00:09:57.080 it direct from the. company and the company 248 00:09:57.080 --> 00:10:00.280 leaks your fucking home address. So what the 249 00:10:00.280 --> 00:10:01.980 fuck, man? What the fuck? And then like, 250 00:10:01.980 --> 00:10:03.480 in order for us to tell people with 251 00:10:03.480 --> 00:10:06.120 a straight face to go do self -custody, 252 00:10:06.120 --> 00:10:07.880 we basically have to run them through this 253 00:10:07.880 --> 00:10:10.280 like scenario, this gauntlet where we sound like 254 00:10:10.280 --> 00:10:14.400 crazy fucking insane people who were described. Like, 255 00:10:14.400 --> 00:10:15.560 you know, you got to get a P. 256 00:10:15.560 --> 00:10:18.340 Have you checked on the, you know, the 257 00:10:18.340 --> 00:10:20.120 veracity of your dice? Are they, you know, 258 00:10:20.120 --> 00:10:21.460 where are they coming from? And then also 259 00:10:21.460 --> 00:10:23.640 like, what surface? Yeah, what surface do you 260 00:10:23.640 --> 00:10:25.540 roll on those dice on, right? The whole 261 00:10:25.540 --> 00:10:30.540 thing is. It's like, we all, myself included, 262 00:10:30.540 --> 00:10:32.300 we fucked up. And we wanted to treat 263 00:10:32.300 --> 00:10:34.260 self -custody as though it was easy. And 264 00:10:34.260 --> 00:10:38.140 it's not easy. And it's really fucking hard, 265 00:10:38.140 --> 00:10:39.120 man. It's going to be hard for a 266 00:10:39.120 --> 00:10:41.100 long fucking time, probably forever. So that's the 267 00:10:41.100 --> 00:10:44.040 way it is. Father of new twins. What 268 00:10:44.040 --> 00:10:46.520 do you think? You know, you're doing a 269 00:10:46.520 --> 00:10:48.580 lot of, obviously, streaming. And I've seen your 270 00:10:48.580 --> 00:10:50.080 chats. People are having these, they have these 271 00:10:50.080 --> 00:10:51.820 questions fairly frequently. They did during Cold Card. 272 00:10:51.820 --> 00:10:53.800 I'm sure they will with this, too. You 273 00:10:53.800 --> 00:10:55.240 know, what do you tell them? Do you 274 00:10:55.240 --> 00:10:56.580 tell them anything? Do you

lead them to 275 00:10:56.580 --> 00:10:59.020 water? What do you do? Yeah, I mean, 276 00:10:59.020 --> 00:11:00.460 it's a lot of what Hattel just said. 277 00:11:00.460 --> 00:11:01.600 And I think it's, this goes back to 278 00:11:01.600 --> 00:11:03.900 having agency and not outsourcing your agency. And 279 00:11:03.900 --> 00:11:05.980 this is, you know, we, we believe, I 280 00:11:05.980 --> 00:11:08.300 think that, you know, you don't change Bitcoin. 281 00:11:08.300 --> 00:11:10.820 Bitcoin changes you. So that means becoming a 282 00:11:10.820 --> 00:11:14.060 better person. That means increasing your EQ, your, 283 00:11:14.060 --> 00:11:15.780 your everything, right? Like just getting better with 284 00:11:15.780 --> 00:11:17.760 your setup. Like Hattel just said, I mean, 285 00:11:17.760 --> 00:11:20.060 spending time on it. And this goes back 286 00:11:20.060 --> 00:11:21.820 to the tradeoffs of life. Life is, you 287 00:11:21.820 --> 00:11:23.600 know, was it Thomas Sol or, I forget 288 00:11:23.600 --> 00:11:25.080 who is, you know, life is, it's a 289 00:11:25.080 --> 00:11:27.760 series of probabilities and tradeoffs, there's no, like, 290 00:11:27.760 --> 00:11:29.220 you know, it's not a stand -time test. 291 00:11:29.220 --> 00:11:30.480 We talk about this all the time, right? 292 00:11:30.480 --> 00:11:32.100 And the homeschooling thing and Walker, we go 293 00:11:32.100 --> 00:11:33.420 back and forth on these things. All of 294 00:11:33.420 --> 00:11:35.180 us have talked about these things where school 295 00:11:35.180 --> 00:11:37.560 teaches people compulsory school that there's just true 296 00:11:37.560 --> 00:11:39.580 and false. It's just A, C, or D, 297 00:11:39.580 --> 00:11:41.560 and it's life is gray. And there's tradeoffs 298 00:11:41.560 --> 00:11:44.960 for everything. And so that's where you have 299 00:11:44.960 --> 00:11:47.080 these very simplistic, like even some of the 300 00:11:47.080 --> 00:11:49.580 older wallets that are, like, they're fine or 301 00:11:49.580 --> 00:11:50.780 maybe got, you know, people haven't written on 302 00:11:50.780 --> 00:11:52.000 paper. And it's like, okay, well, there you 303 00:11:52.000 --> 00:11:54.080 go. But these, these tradeoffs with fancy UI 304 00:11:54.080 --> 00:11:55.720 and UX, like Haudel's saying, I mean, they 305 00:11:55.720 --> 00:11:57.900 come with. tradeoffs. And there's a very real 306 00:11:57.900 --> 00:11:59.140 reality in that. I think this goes back 307 00:11:59.140 --> 00:12:00.340 to, like, we even we saw with the 308 00:12:00.340 --> 00:12:02.740 fork and people, you know, recently forking off, 309 00:12:02.740 --> 00:12:04.240 a lot of that crowd, they wanted, like, 310 00:12:04.240 --> 00:12:05.460 we need to use it as money. It 311 00:12:05.460 --> 00:12:06.680 shouldn't be in Wall Street on the stuff. 312 00:12:06.680 --> 00:12:08.080 Well, at the end of the day, how 313 00:12:08.080 --> 00:12:09.280 are we, how are you going to Trojan 314 00:12:09.280 --> 00:12:11.460 Horse anything if we're just constantly trying to 315 00:12:11.460 --> 00:12:13.420 remove everyone from it and just, it's just 316 00:12:13.420 --> 00:12:15.140 a select few people. I mean, look, look 317 00:12:15.140 --> 00:12:17.240 how hard it is in general to get 318 00:12:17.240 --> 00:12:19.160 people to understand hardware wallets and what's happening. 319 00:12:19.160 --> 00:12:20.780 There's going to have to be hundreds, thousands 320 00:12:20.780 --> 00:12:22.940 of different solutions in different ways into Bitcoin 321 00:12:22.940 --> 00:12:24.520 and how to use Bitcoin and what's happening. 322 00:12:24.520 --> 00:12:25.840 And it's not going to be every way 323 00:12:25.840 --> 00:12:27.400 that. Brandon likes doing it or Hoddle or 324 00:12:27.400 --> 00:12:29.060 Joey or Walker or anyone that chat likes 325 00:12:29.060 --> 00:12:30.420 doing it. There's going to be all kinds 326 00:12:30.420 --> 00:12:31.580 of ways that it's going to be done 327 00:12:31.580 --> 00:12:36.360 and own your decisions. You know, have agency, 328 00:12:36.360 --> 00:12:39.520 actually go through and actually, you know, maybe, 329 00:12:39.520 --> 00:12:41.480 maybe some people, like we said here all 330 00:12:41.480 --> 00:12:43.720 along, the older crowd. Yeah, maybe they're, they're 331 00:12:43.720 --> 00:12:45.740 in the ETFs. Maybe they're doing, you know, 332 00:12:45.740 --> 00:12:47.020 X, Y, and Z thing. Maybe there's a 333 00:12:47.020 --> 00:12:49.280 crowd that's in self -custody. Obviously, that's the 334 00:12:49.280 --> 00:12:50.860 best. And we have to have that being 335 00:12:50.860 --> 00:12:53.440 in self -custody, but there is the tradeoff. 336 00:12:53.440 --> 00:12:55.360 And so I think that when you're hard 337 00:12:55.360 --> 00:12:56.920 line in the sense, of like everyone has 338 00:12:56.920 --> 00:12:58.640 to do it that way, that's when we 339 00:12:58.640 --> 00:13:00.480 get into problems. When it's a hard line 340 00:13:00.480 --> 00:13:02.560 for yourself or being extreme for yourself, that's 341 00:13:02.560 --> 00:13:04.280 great. You know, and that's where a lot 342 00:13:04.280 --> 00:13:05.680 of us, I think, kind of come from, 343 00:13:05.680 --> 00:13:07.940 generally speaking, just broad brushing it. But when 344 00:13:07.940 --> 00:13:09.640 we try to slap it across humanity and 345 00:13:09.640 --> 00:13:11.220 say, hey, everyone has to be this way 346 00:13:11.220 --> 00:13:12.780 and it has to go this way, that's 347 00:13:12.780 --> 00:13:14.680 where I think we limit ourselves and change 348 00:13:14.680 --> 00:13:17.300 ourselves. So you see the AI just exposing 349 00:13:17.300 --> 00:13:20.040 everyone everywhere. And it's not just a Bitcoin 350 00:13:20.040 --> 00:13:22.080 world. It's a legacy world too. And it's 351 00:13:22.080 --> 00:13:23.720 only going to continue. Like Hidal said, this 352 00:13:23.720 --> 00:13:25.280 is only going to continue. In the

back 353 00:13:25.280 --> 00:13:26.600 chat, I think it was. you, Joey or 354 00:13:26.600 --> 00:13:29.860 Walker earlier saying the same thing that the, 355 00:13:29.860 --> 00:13:31.240 you know, the thing, oh, it was Walker 356 00:13:31.240 --> 00:13:32.220 was what he was talking about with Carla 357 00:13:32.220 --> 00:13:34.240 and in the coordinates and all the stuff, 358 00:13:34.240 --> 00:13:35.200 right? And so I'm sure people in the 359 00:13:35.200 --> 00:13:37.340 chat saw some of that where this is 360 00:13:37.340 --> 00:13:39.040 only, we even scratch the surface. It's only 361 00:13:39.040 --> 00:13:41.240 2026, you know, with what AI is going 362 00:13:41.240 --> 00:13:43.780 to be capable of doing. So, you know, 363 00:13:43.780 --> 00:13:45.120 get ready. And I think the last thing 364 00:13:45.120 --> 00:13:47.140 I'll say in landing the plane is, you 365 00:13:47.140 --> 00:13:48.720 know, we spend a lot of time trying 366 00:13:48.720 --> 00:13:51.360 to obsec ourselves. Maybe the best solution is 367 00:13:51.360 --> 00:13:54.260 just going to Lexington Green and the North 368 00:13:54.260 --> 00:13:56.040 Bridge and Concord, just saying, you know what? 369 00:13:56.040 --> 00:13:57.740 off what are you going to do and 370 00:13:57.740 --> 00:14:00.760 just taking control you've got Brazil clearly elections 371 00:14:00.760 --> 00:14:02.100 are a scam you've got a you a 372 00:14:02.100 --> 00:14:03.320 lot of EU countries are about to go 373 00:14:03.320 --> 00:14:05.820 start rioting iran people will probably start riding 374 00:14:05.820 --> 00:14:07.260 at some point a rioting is on the 375 00:14:07.260 --> 00:14:08.580 menu for a lot of countries right now 376 00:14:08.580 --> 00:14:10.420 and at some point good men just have 377 00:14:10.420 --> 00:14:12.400 to stand up and say hey what the 378 00:14:12.400 --> 00:14:13.940 fuck are you doing i'm we're not doing 379 00:14:13.940 --> 00:14:15.500 this shit anymore and just trying to run 380 00:14:15.500 --> 00:14:17.140 and hide all the time and everyone's running 381 00:14:17.140 --> 00:14:19.500 and hiding that only gets you so far 382 00:14:19.500 --> 00:14:21.460 and in the big the grim reaper just 383 00:14:21.460 --> 00:14:23.620 keeps coming keep mowing people down left right 384 00:14:23.620 --> 00:14:25.800 and center and at some point good men 385 00:14:25.800 --> 00:14:27.240 have stand up and say, we're not doing 386 00:14:27.240 --> 00:14:29.840 this anymore. And that to me is the 387 00:14:29.840 --> 00:14:32.060 time that's coming for a lot of people. 388 00:14:32.060 --> 00:14:33.420 It's great to have you back. Walker, I 389 00:14:33.420 --> 00:14:35.220 want to show you something here. You tell 390 00:14:35.220 --> 00:14:36.760 me what you think about this. There's obviously 391 00:14:36.760 --> 00:14:38.100 been a couple of these hacks. I don't 392 00:14:38.100 --> 00:14:39.100 know why it keeps going to the link 393 00:14:39.100 --> 00:14:41.360

page, but where's it showing now? I can't 394 00:14:41.360 --> 00:14:43.680 even see this thing anymore. It's a complete 395 00:14:43.680 --> 00:14:46.600 disaster meltdown on the stream side of things 396 00:14:46.600 --> 00:14:48.040 here. The thing I wanted to ask you 397 00:14:48.040 --> 00:14:53.060 about is the Keystone hack as well, obviously, 398 00:14:53.060 --> 00:14:55.160 which just was announced today. So two of 399 00:14:55.160 --> 00:14:58.800 these wallets now, with significant data breaches. What 400 00:14:58.800 --> 00:15:01.140 do you do about this? Because now you're 401 00:15:01.140 --> 00:15:03.800 talking about the amplification and ramp -up of 402 00:15:03.800 --> 00:15:05.900 the severity and the complexity. These guys are 403 00:15:05.900 --> 00:15:09.740 another company that looks like had either some 404 00:15:09.740 --> 00:15:12.900 kind of manufacturer, middleman problem or an online 405 00:15:12.900 --> 00:15:15.200 problem with their device verification. So now you 406 00:15:15.200 --> 00:15:19.680 got Keystone, you have foundation, you had Cold 407 00:15:19.680 --> 00:15:22.460 Card, you had Ledger. The Ledger won probably 408 00:15:22.460 --> 00:15:24.880 the most insane. And luckily for these guys, 409 00:15:24.880 --> 00:15:26.040 there's just so much of this stuff happening. 410 00:15:26.040 --> 00:15:28.440 happening now that they didn't get a ton 411 00:15:28.440 --> 00:15:29.920 of time in the spotlight. That's one thing 412 00:15:29.920 --> 00:15:31.200 I kind of thought about today is how 413 00:15:31.200 --> 00:15:33.220 we were on NVK for like a week 414 00:15:33.220 --> 00:15:35.400 on this show and we were on Ledger 415 00:15:35.400 --> 00:15:38.400 for a day. One's one's third party versus 416 00:15:38.400 --> 00:15:41.220 manufacturer themselves. You know what I mean? I 417 00:15:41.220 --> 00:15:42.620 do think there's like I'm not trying to 418 00:15:42.620 --> 00:15:44.300 go to bat for Ledger here, but I 419 00:15:44.300 --> 00:15:45.620 do think that that is like a fundamental 420 00:15:45.620 --> 00:15:47.560 difference. Now you can see you didn't vet 421 00:15:47.560 --> 00:15:50.720 your third party, your third party distributors well 422 00:15:50.720 --> 00:15:54.400 enough. And that very well may be true. 423 00:15:54.400 --> 00:15:56.380 And that's easy thing to shut down and 424 00:15:56.380 --> 00:15:58.160 say, okay, guess we don't distribute third party 425 00:15:58.160 --> 00:16:01.020 anymore. Like, sorry, I don't know, a bunch 426 00:16:01.020 --> 00:16:03.140 of people in countries where we don't ship 427 00:16:03.140 --> 00:16:04.200 to, like, you're just not going to get 428 00:16:04.200 --> 00:16:07.780 it. Like, I don't, I'll let you finish 429 00:16:07.780 --> 00:16:09.660 that before I maybe go and rant on 430 00:16:09.660 --> 00:16:11.500 this. But was there, was there another part 431 00:16:11.500 --> 00:16:14.500 to that? That's it. I just want to 432 00:16:14.500 --> 00:16:17.300 add, yeah, you sent me something here that's 433 00:16:17.300 --> 00:16:19.520 worth talking about because you and me obviously 434 00:16:19.520 --> 00:16:21.840 have been thinking about this for a while. 435 00:16:21.840 --> 00:16:28.220 But, I mean, The ETF, SMSTR, this kind 436 00:16:28.220 --> 00:16:32.380 of stuff, it looks better and better as 437 00:16:32.380 --> 00:16:33.640 the more of this stuff happens. Brandon, you 438 00:16:33.640 --> 00:16:36.240 mentioned it. The old guys, the sort of 439 00:16:36.240 --> 00:16:37.720 more risk -averse, people who want exposure to 440 00:16:37.720 --> 00:16:40.060 Bitcoin are going to go this direction. I 441 00:16:40.060 --> 00:16:41.180 don't know, Walker, if you got some thoughts 442 00:16:41.180 --> 00:16:43.020 on that, too. Let's hear him. Yeah, I 443 00:16:43.020 --> 00:16:44.840 mean, you know, what I said here was 444 00:16:44.840 --> 00:16:46.900 a tweet that I just put out. And 445 00:16:46.900 --> 00:16:48.640 guys, to be clear, I'm saying it in 446 00:16:48.640 --> 00:16:49.720 a little bit of a tongue -in -cheek 447 00:16:49.720 --> 00:16:52.460 way. But, like, you know who hasn't lost 448 00:16:52.460 --> 00:16:56.460 any Bitcoin or exposed customers' home addresses? and 449 00:16:56.460 --> 00:17:01.120 attacks, well, it's Michael Saylor and Larry Think, 450 00:17:01.120 --> 00:17:03.500 you know? They've got your back. Now, of 451 00:17:03.500 --> 00:17:05.400 course, they can't lose your Bitcoin because you 452 00:17:05.400 --> 00:17:08.860 don't have Bitcoin through them, right? And that's 453 00:17:08.860 --> 00:17:12.360 the fundamental thing, right? And again, as I've 454 00:17:12.360 --> 00:17:14.040 always said, if you can't open a PDF, 455 00:17:14.040 --> 00:17:16.360 buy the Bitcoin ETF, right? And although I 456 00:17:16.360 --> 00:17:19.060 am an MSTR shareholder and have been vocally 457 00:17:19.060 --> 00:17:21.100 so, as opposed to Joey, who lied about 458 00:17:21.100 --> 00:17:22.180 it to you guys for months while he 459 00:17:22.180 --> 00:17:25.180 was DCAing MSTR and ragging on Michael Saylor, 460 00:17:25.180 --> 00:17:28.500 while on this stream misleading his loyal fans 461 00:17:28.500 --> 00:17:33.180 of which they're at least three. Nice. I 462 00:17:33.180 --> 00:17:35.560 still won't recommend that you buy MSTR, right? 463 00:17:35.560 --> 00:17:37.800 I will recommend that you buy Spot Bitcoin, 464 00:17:37.800 --> 00:17:40.140 but man, it is getting really hard as 465 00:17:40.140 --> 00:17:42.960 a Bitcoiner, especially if you have somebody like, 466 00:17:42.960 --> 00:17:45.640 the thing about this situation, like the family 467 00:17:45.640 --> 00:17:47.080 member who you, you know, were trying to 468 00:17:47.080 --> 00:17:49.360 orange pill for years, and then you finally 469 00:17:49.360 --> 00:17:50.640 gave up on and then they come back 470 00:17:50.640 --> 00:17:52.780 around to you, you know, today. You know, 471 00:17:52.780

--> 00:17:54.180 like, you know what? I think I think 472 00:17:54.180 --> 00:17:56.600 I'm finally ready to take the plunge and 473 00:17:56.600 --> 00:17:58.420 get some bigger one. What would you recommend? 474 00:17:58.420 --> 00:18:00.680 Oh, oh enlightened one, who knows all of 475 00:18:00.680 --> 00:18:04.340 the Bitcoin things? What do you tell them? 476 00:18:04.340 --> 00:18:05.980 What do you tell them right now in 477 00:18:05.980 --> 00:18:09.200 good confidence? Like, I would say, depending on 478 00:18:09.200 --> 00:18:10.520 how much capital, like, they're looking to put 479 00:18:10.520 --> 00:18:12.660 in a, you know, a couple thousand bucks, 480 00:18:12.660 --> 00:18:14.080 I'd say keep it on the exchange. Not 481 00:18:14.080 --> 00:18:16.500 even a question. Keep, go to River, not 482 00:18:16.500 --> 00:18:18.660 sponsored by River, just love their product. I 483 00:18:18.660 --> 00:18:20.000 think the team there is fucking awesome and 484 00:18:20.000 --> 00:18:23.600 based. Go to River, set up a, you 485 00:18:23.600 --> 00:18:24.960 know, do a little smash by, set up 486 00:18:24.960 --> 00:18:27.620 a automatic DCA, get that supercharged buys when 487 00:18:27.620 --> 00:18:30.160 it's dipping like now, great, leave it on 488 00:18:30.160 --> 00:18:31.680 there, come back to me later when you 489 00:18:31.680 --> 00:18:34.920 have an amount on there that is significant. 490 00:18:34.920 --> 00:18:38.100 That's kind of option one. Two is what 491 00:18:38.100 --> 00:18:40.060 means you tell him like, I wouldn't feel 492 00:18:40.060 --> 00:18:42.260 comfortable telling him to do any single -sig 493 00:18:42.260 --> 00:18:46.240 hardware set up right now. Because there's either 494 00:18:46.240 --> 00:18:49.380 the risk of, hey, your personal info gets 495 00:18:49.380 --> 00:18:51.660 leaked and you become, you know, you get 496 00:18:51.660 --> 00:18:53.100 put on a hit list with your home 497 00:18:53.100 --> 00:18:57.680 address. Two. Maybe there's some fucking vulnerability or 498 00:18:57.680 --> 00:19:01.080 a dev who is, you know, working for 499 00:19:01.080 --> 00:19:03.480 the Chinese communist partisan. I don't fucking, I 500 00:19:03.480 --> 00:19:05.260 don't fucking know anything's in the table now, 501 00:19:05.260 --> 00:19:06.820 right? And they end up getting their Bitcoin 502 00:19:06.820 --> 00:19:08.300 drained. Like, so I don't know, single SIG 503 00:19:08.300 --> 00:19:11.460 probably out. Okay, like, not going to tell 504 00:19:11.460 --> 00:19:13.400 them to do a homegrown multi -sig setup 505 00:19:13.400 --> 00:19:16.040 because they're just starting out. I'm not going 506 00:19:16.040 --> 00:19:17.180 to fucking tell them that. I'm certainly not 507 00:19:17.180 --> 00:19:18.260 going to fucking tell them to go roll 508 00:19:18.260 --> 00:19:20.540 some dice and do the Nathan way. And 509 00:19:20.540 --> 00:19:22.040 you're going to need to get a laboratory 510 00:19:22.040 --> 00:19:23.860 grade scale to make sure those, you know, 511 00:19:23.860 --> 00:19:26.240 those dice are exactly, uh, exactly at the, 512 00:19:26.240 --> 00:19:28.960 you know, specificity they need to be. And, 513 00:19:28.960 --> 00:19:30.760 like, you know, measure the solar flares coming 514 00:19:30.760 --> 00:19:32.560 off of the sun to generate additional entropy 515 00:19:32.560 --> 00:19:33.980 on top of your dice rolls. Like, that's 516 00:19:33.980 --> 00:19:37.180 a pretty good way to do it. Like, 517 00:19:37.180 --> 00:19:38.120 fuck, what do you, what do you tell 518 00:19:38.120 --> 00:19:40.360 people? Like, you can't tell them any of 519 00:19:40.360 --> 00:19:41.820 those things. So then it's like collaborative multi 520 00:19:41.820 --> 00:19:44.280 -sig or like a product, like, uh, it's 521 00:19:44.280 --> 00:19:47.380 like CASA. I personally use CASA with multiple 522 00:19:47.380 --> 00:19:50.200 different, uh, types of hardware. Happy to, happy 523 00:19:50.200 --> 00:19:51.400 to say that and happy to also say 524 00:19:51.400 --> 00:19:53.860 like, uh, also not sponsored by CASA. Anchor 525 00:19:53.860 --> 00:19:56.320 watch is another one where it's like, okay, 526 00:19:56.320 --> 00:19:58.480 collaborative multi -sig and then also you got 527 00:19:58.480 --> 00:19:59.980 the insurance angle on there so even if 528 00:19:59.980 --> 00:20:01.620 something gets fawked hey you got the insurance 529 00:20:01.620 --> 00:20:03.060 like you can get you can get your 530 00:20:03.060 --> 00:20:04.680 money back that's looking a heck of a 531 00:20:04.680 --> 00:20:08.220 lot more attractive right now but other than 532 00:20:08.220 --> 00:20:11.500 that i don't know how you can recommend 533 00:20:11.500 --> 00:20:13.580 like a single sig set up in good 534 00:20:13.580 --> 00:20:15.240 faith to anyone i don't know how any 535 00:20:15.240 --> 00:20:17.620 bitcoin or does just a one like all 536 00:20:17.620 --> 00:20:19.320 of their coins on one single sig set 537 00:20:19.320 --> 00:20:23.000 up i think that's wildly wildly irresponsible especially 538 00:20:23.000 --> 00:20:25.080 if you have a family uh there's no 539 00:20:25.080 --> 00:20:26.320 not to make meant to be offensive to 540 00:20:26.320 --> 00:20:29.120 anyone. I just think that's incredibly irresponsible if 541 00:20:29.120 --> 00:20:31.340 you are the, if you are a dad 542 00:20:31.340 --> 00:20:33.200 and a husband and you are not managing 543 00:20:33.200 --> 00:20:35.920 risk properly by distributing that risk, at least 544 00:20:35.920 --> 00:20:38.040 in some sort of, you know, multi -saker 545 00:20:38.040 --> 00:20:42.360 collaborative custody method. Like, but you can't just 546 00:20:42.360 --> 00:20:45.140 tell somebody, you know, your aunt Jemima or 547 00:20:45.140 --> 00:20:48.480 whatever her name is, Aunt Jimithy, who just 548 00:20:48.480 --> 00:20:50.040 finally came around to Bitcoin and wants to 549 00:20:50.040 --> 00:20:51.560 put a

little bit of her social security 550 00:20:51.560 --> 00:20:53.760 money into it. Like, you're not going to 551 00:20:53.760 --> 00:20:56.520 tell her to do self -custy right now, 552 00:20:56.520 --> 00:20:58.840 that would be irresponsible, to be honest. And 553 00:20:58.840 --> 00:21:01.860 that sucks. Like, that sucks for us Bitcoiners 554 00:21:01.860 --> 00:21:04.640 who want people to, you know, be sovereign 555 00:21:04.640 --> 00:21:05.980 and do the right thing and all these 556 00:21:05.980 --> 00:21:09.360 things. Like, but as myself and I mean, 557 00:21:09.360 --> 00:21:10.640 I think probably all of us on this 558 00:21:10.640 --> 00:21:13.600 show right now have said, like, self -custody 559 00:21:13.600 --> 00:21:16.200 was never going to be for everyone. I 560 00:21:16.200 --> 00:21:17.380 don't think anyway. I don't want to put 561 00:21:17.380 --> 00:21:19.280 words in your guy's mouth. Maybe you disagree. 562 00:21:19.280 --> 00:21:21.200 I don't think it's ever been for everyone. 563 00:21:21.200 --> 00:21:23.180 First of all, because the UTXO set wouldn't 564 00:21:23.180 --> 00:21:26.740 allow it. But secondly, because honestly, most people 565 00:21:26.740 --> 00:21:29.000 aren't going to do it right. And even 566 00:21:29.000 --> 00:21:30.560 if they do it right, like all the 567 00:21:30.560 --> 00:21:33.180 bitcointers who did it right with cold card, 568 00:21:33.180 --> 00:21:36.220 they can still get fucked. So, like, I 569 00:21:36.220 --> 00:21:38.740 think that's irresponsible to recommend single -sig at 570 00:21:38.740 --> 00:21:41.120 this point to anyone. And you should probably 571 00:21:41.120 --> 00:21:42.240 just, if you got just a little bit 572 00:21:42.240 --> 00:21:44.900 of Bitcoin, sucks to say, guys, but you 573 00:21:44.900 --> 00:21:46.920 should just keep it on a fucking exchange. 574 00:21:46.920 --> 00:21:47.800 Like, I know I'm not going to pass 575 00:21:47.800 --> 00:21:49.100 some purity test for that, but it's the 576 00:21:49.100 --> 00:21:51.520 fucking reality. Like, deal with it. End of 577 00:21:51.520 --> 00:21:54.480 rant. If you're new, for sure, there's a 578 00:21:54.480 --> 00:21:56.000 lot. There's risks now that just weren't present 579 00:21:56.000 --> 00:21:58.380 10 years ago because the asset class has 580 00:21:58.380 --> 00:21:59.620 matured to the point where it's become a 581 00:21:59.620 --> 00:22:00.980 honeypot. And I don't think there's any doubt 582 00:22:00.980 --> 00:22:02.260 about that. I think you're right, Rocker. There 583 00:22:02.260 --> 00:22:05.440 are purity testers, some of which that, you 584 00:22:05.440 --> 00:22:06.800 know, we're probably friends with, the four of 585 00:22:06.800 --> 00:22:10.320 us, who did get on people big time 586 00:22:10.320 --> 00:22:13.440 about custody and taking stuff off exchanges. Now, 587 00:22:13.440 --> 00:22:17.380 it's not just hardware, electron wallet, also confirming 588 00:22:17.380 --> 00:22:20.860 a critical security bug today. I mean, I 589 00:22:20.860 --> 00:22:23.040 don't know, I don't know where you're supposed 590 00:22:23.040 --> 00:22:26.640 to hide. this is an RBF attack. So 591 00:22:26.640 --> 00:22:28.020 if you try to increase a fee on 592 00:22:28.020 --> 00:22:30.960 a transaction, it ends up being a malicious 593 00:22:30.960 --> 00:22:33.400 transaction issue and you lose the funds. There's 594 00:22:33.400 --> 00:22:35.900 only one documented case so far, but I 595 00:22:35.900 --> 00:22:37.460 question how many people are really tracking their 596 00:22:37.460 --> 00:22:39.260 transactions once they leave the wallet. Like, I 597 00:22:39.260 --> 00:22:41.920 suspect this will probably grow a little bit 598 00:22:41.920 --> 00:22:44.500 in the coming days. One thing we've talked 599 00:22:44.500 --> 00:22:46.000 about on this show in the last, you 600 00:22:46.000 --> 00:22:48.160 know, month or so, given the AI spin 601 00:22:48.160 --> 00:22:51.800 that's happening now, basically everywhere, is, and you 602 00:22:51.800 --> 00:22:55.380 mentioned it, Hoddle, how much are, you personally 603 00:22:55.380 --> 00:22:57.320 spending on cybersecurity as far as time and 604 00:22:57.320 --> 00:23:00.060 resources, that's an indication of how important it 605 00:23:00.060 --> 00:23:01.440 is to you, and it should be very 606 00:23:01.440 --> 00:23:02.620 important to you. You know, are you spending 607 00:23:02.620 --> 00:23:06.000 more on your PlayStation Plus membership than you 608 00:23:06.000 --> 00:23:07.860 are on your cloud membership? If that's the 609 00:23:07.860 --> 00:23:11.240 case, you've got to reassess. You know, two, 610 00:23:11.240 --> 00:23:14.740 the companies you're using, whether they are wallets 611 00:23:14.740 --> 00:23:17.820 or banks or, you know, basically anything that 612 00:23:17.820 --> 00:23:19.660 has access to any funds of yours, your 613 00:23:19.660 --> 00:23:24.200 ID, your identification, your, your, you know, critical 614 00:23:24.200 --> 00:23:26.280 influence. How much are they spending on these 615 00:23:26.280 --> 00:23:30.080 things? Are they part of the tight -knit 616 00:23:30.080 --> 00:23:33.160 group that has access to these like unencumbered 617 00:23:33.160 --> 00:23:36.340 models, the obliterated models, as the phrasing goes, 618 00:23:36.340 --> 00:23:39.400 I think? Are they taking this stuff seriously? 619 00:23:39.400 --> 00:23:41.500 Or are they putting out, you know, nonsense 620 00:23:41.500 --> 00:23:43.500 and slop and things like this with AI? 621 00:23:43.500 --> 00:23:46.000 How are they using the tools? Those two 622 00:23:46.000 --> 00:23:48.280 things were not even calculations before Walker, you're 623 00:23:48.280 --> 00:23:49.380 right. And I think a lot of people 624 00:23:49.380 --> 00:23:52.060 who are talking about, okay, well, self -custody 625 00:23:52.060 --> 00:23:54.040 is still the way for everybody. It's worth 626 00:23:54.040 --> 00:23:55.900

talking. It's worth talking. about, you know, new 627 00:23:55.900 --> 00:24:01.980 wallets, new hardware, stuff like that. I struggle 628 00:24:01.980 --> 00:24:05.340 to come up with something to say to 629 00:24:05.340 --> 00:24:07.160 them. And not only that, how much responsibility 630 00:24:07.160 --> 00:24:09.320 do you want if something like this goes 631 00:24:09.320 --> 00:24:12.300 sideways? Like, you can't predict what that person 632 00:24:12.300 --> 00:24:13.340 will do with the hardware when you're not 633 00:24:13.340 --> 00:24:15.320 around, number one. And number two, even if 634 00:24:15.320 --> 00:24:17.000 they do everything right, you can't predict that 635 00:24:17.000 --> 00:24:19.880 the company's going to keep them safe anymore. 636 00:24:19.880 --> 00:24:20.980 Howl, where do you come down on all 637 00:24:20.980 --> 00:24:22.780 this stuff, buddy? Well, yeah, one of the 638 00:24:22.780 --> 00:24:24.660 problems with, um, B, B, you know, being 639 00:24:24.660 --> 00:24:26.880 the uncle Jim in your, you know, friend's 640 00:24:26.880 --> 00:24:28.780 life, uh, and you're, you're the Bitcoin guy 641 00:24:28.780 --> 00:24:30.320 and you're going to give recommendations or whatever 642 00:24:30.320 --> 00:24:33.580 is that you become a babysitter for a 643 00:24:33.580 --> 00:24:36.760 little baby guys and you got to hold 644 00:24:36.760 --> 00:24:39.820 their hand, not just at inception when you're 645 00:24:39.820 --> 00:24:43.100 setting up the wallet, but forever afterwards. And 646 00:24:43.100 --> 00:24:44.720 like, there were a lot of people who 647 00:24:44.720 --> 00:24:46.480 during the cold card hack were getting calls 648 00:24:46.480 --> 00:24:48.660 left and right from, you know, friends and 649 00:24:48.660 --> 00:24:50.020 family who were like, what, this thing we 650 00:24:50.020 --> 00:24:51.140 set up at Thanksgiving, like, what do we 651 00:24:51.140 --> 00:24:52.180 do? Well, like, what do I do, you 652 00:24:52.180 --> 00:24:54.800 know? And people were hopping on airplanes driving 653 00:24:54.800 --> 00:24:56.640 across the country and, like, getting on phone 654 00:24:56.640 --> 00:25:01.300 calls, and, you know, I, it's, it sucks, 655 00:25:01.300 --> 00:25:04.980 man. It sucks, man. So, I think, you 656 00:25:04.980 --> 00:25:08.600 know, there's this mental model I've had in 657 00:25:08.600 --> 00:25:10.500 my head for a while, just having a 658 00:25:10.500 --> 00:25:12.360 lot of talks with my friend, Jon Seth, 659 00:25:12.360 --> 00:25:16.020 who's, you know, Bitcoin OG. And he basically, 660 00:25:16.020 --> 00:25:18.540 we always talk about the efficient market hypothesis 661 00:25:18.540 --> 00:25:21.640 and why we, as Bitcoiners are getting paid 662 00:25:21.640 --> 00:25:23.780 outside the efficient market hypothesis. Why are we 663 00:25:23.780 --> 00:25:25.820 performing so much better? Shouldn't the market be 664 00:25:25.820 --> 00:25:28.120 efficient? Shouldn't this all be priced in? And 665 00:25:28.120 --> 00:25:30.660 you have to be, you know, in EMH, 666 00:25:30.660 --> 00:25:32.060 like strong form, weak form, you have to 667 00:25:32.060 --> 00:25:34.980 be getting paid for something. And Junson told 668 00:25:34.980 --> 00:25:36.860 me, he believes that we are getting paid 669 00:25:36.860 --> 00:25:39.260 for custody risk. And that is what we've 670 00:25:39.260 --> 00:25:41.160 been being paid for the whole time. So 671 00:25:41.160 --> 00:25:45.720 in some sense, it's kind of inextricable to 672 00:25:45.720 --> 00:25:50.260 being a bitcoiner. Like, you are not going 673 00:25:50.260 --> 00:25:53.900 to be able to from because. Custody risk 674 00:25:53.900 --> 00:25:55.580 is the thing that yours is very hard 675 00:25:55.580 --> 00:25:58.840 to hang on to the Bitcoin. I do 676 00:25:58.840 --> 00:26:02.920 like that theory. I don't know how much 677 00:26:02.920 --> 00:26:04.500 longer that's going to be the case, but 678 00:26:04.500 --> 00:26:06.860 I think it's true that you do pay 679 00:26:06.860 --> 00:26:09.580 some, you get paid some premium for that 680 00:26:09.580 --> 00:26:13.200 skill set. Brandon, you know, when you think 681 00:26:13.200 --> 00:26:17.120 about custody efficient markets, you know, what are 682 00:26:17.120 --> 00:26:18.840 we really being paid for as Bitcoiners? Are 683 00:26:18.840 --> 00:26:20.700 we being paid to sit and wait or 684 00:26:20.700 --> 00:26:22.100 are we being paid for what we're doing 685 00:26:22.100 --> 00:26:24.300 while we're sitting and waiting? You agree, you 686 00:26:24.300 --> 00:26:26.340 disagree? I have not, I actually not heard 687 00:26:26.340 --> 00:26:27.760 that. I don't think that Junice has talked 688 00:26:27.760 --> 00:26:30.420 about that anywhere. So that's, that's interesting. Yeah, 689 00:26:30.420 --> 00:26:32.760 no, I totally agree because it just goes 690 00:26:32.760 --> 00:26:34.700 back to everyone wants to have their cake 691 00:26:34.700 --> 00:26:36.240 and eat it too, right? Like, everyone wants 692 00:26:36.240 --> 00:26:38.960 to, like, beat, you know, oh, I have 693 00:26:38.960 --> 00:26:41.340 a billion, you know, cuck bucks because I 694 00:26:41.340 --> 00:26:43.320 got into Bitcoin early, but no one wants 695 00:26:43.320 --> 00:26:45.640 to put that work in. Like, again, people, 696 00:26:45.640 --> 00:26:48.720 like, beat themselves up. It's like, dude, 90, 697 00:26:48.720 --> 00:26:50.660 you know, almost no in the world could 698 00:26:50.660 --> 00:26:53.140 Bitcoin, you know, 15 years ago. Like, you 699 00:26:53.140 --> 00:26:54.260 didn't know what the hell to do. None 700 00:26:54.260 --> 00:26:55.120 of us knew what the hell to do 701 00:26:55.120 --> 00:26:57.900 15 years ago. Like, is this, you know, 702 00:26:57.900 --> 00:26:59.900 few people that could do it and the 703 00:26:59.900 --> 00:27:01.680 beauty of going through. Because look at here 704 00:27:01.680 --> 00:27:04.860 now, the, this

exact thing, like Hoddle's mentioning, 705 00:27:04.860 --> 00:27:07.040 this, um, consternation that we're going through, like 706 00:27:07.040 --> 00:27:09.100 the fork battles, people at each other's throat, 707 00:27:09.100 --> 00:27:11.700 the custody, all, the AI. These are battles. 708 00:27:11.700 --> 00:27:13.360 These are things that have happened, you know, 709 00:27:13.360 --> 00:27:14.600 in different forms, but some of them the 710 00:27:14.600 --> 00:27:16.440 same thing 10 years ago and 8 years 711 00:27:16.440 --> 00:27:18.900 ago and 11, 12, 13, 14, 15 years 712 00:27:18.900 --> 00:27:21.700 ago. So these things have been happening in 713 00:27:21.700 --> 00:27:23.300 that, to, to, you know, to. Haudel's point 714 00:27:23.300 --> 00:27:25.240 in what you're saying with Junset is that 715 00:27:25.240 --> 00:27:28.980 that is this risk. You're carrying this premium 716 00:27:28.980 --> 00:27:32.220 that is accrues to Bitcoin because you're the 717 00:27:32.220 --> 00:27:35.100 early adopters. You're the people in that first, 718 00:27:35.100 --> 00:27:37.060 you know, generation or so that are coming 719 00:27:37.060 --> 00:27:38.380 in saying, hey, I'm going to take some 720 00:27:38.380 --> 00:27:40.060 arrows in my back. I might lose some 721 00:27:40.060 --> 00:27:41.980 Bitcoin. I might spend some too early. I 722 00:27:41.980 --> 00:27:43.880 might do X, Y and Z thing, and 723 00:27:43.880 --> 00:27:45.420 I get marred along the way a little 724 00:27:45.420 --> 00:27:47.340 bit, but, you know, damn it, it was 725 00:27:47.340 --> 00:27:48.860 worth it. It's like, again, it's like the 726 00:27:48.860 --> 00:27:50.780 American Revolution. We mentioned it earlier, right? We 727 00:27:50.780 --> 00:27:52.380 talked about on this show. It's like, not 728 00:27:52.380 --> 00:27:54.100 everyone made it, you know, but a lot 729 00:27:54.100 --> 00:27:56.020 of people did make it. The couple percent 730 00:27:56.020 --> 00:27:58.280 of people took up arms and said, hey, 731 00:27:58.280 --> 00:27:59.560 this is worth it to me. And then 732 00:27:59.560 --> 00:28:01.160 the other, there's a lot of people, they 733 00:28:01.160 --> 00:28:03.300 were British loyalists. They still benefited. They still 734 00:28:03.300 --> 00:28:04.640 got the Constitution. They got the Bill of 735 00:28:04.640 --> 00:28:06.160 Rights. They got it. They did nothing. They 736 00:28:06.160 --> 00:28:07.960 were actually against it. And they still won 737 00:28:07.960 --> 00:28:09.280 at the end of the day. And that's, 738 00:28:09.280 --> 00:28:10.960 I think it's hard as a human to 739 00:28:10.960 --> 00:28:12.920 accept that and just be okay with that 740 00:28:12.920 --> 00:28:14.160 and say, you know what? I'm at peace 741 00:28:14.160 --> 00:28:16.660 with doing what I think is right. And 742 00:28:16.660 --> 00:28:18.600 it's just the human in us that wants 743 00:28:18.600 --> 00:28:19.900 to just have a kick you to where 744 00:28:19.900 --> 00:28:21.000 it's like, oh, I want none of the 745 00:28:21.000 --> 00:28:22.820 risk and none of the chaos, But I 746 00:28:22.820 --> 00:28:24.380 want to get like the upside as well. 747 00:28:24.380 --> 00:28:25.840 That's just how it works. It's just, it's 748 00:28:25.840 --> 00:28:27.760 tradeoffs and probabilities like we said earlier. That's 749 00:28:27.760 --> 00:28:30.480 a great point. The risk is inextricable. It's 750 00:28:30.480 --> 00:28:32.840 completely linked to Bitcoin, and it will be 751 00:28:32.840 --> 00:28:35.100 until we reach some sort of a plateau 752 00:28:35.100 --> 00:28:37.840 here. And I, you know, I think if 753 00:28:37.840 --> 00:28:39.860 you look at the threats, Bitcoin has to 754 00:28:39.860 --> 00:28:41.380 go through in the world. It's like Bitcoin 755 00:28:41.380 --> 00:28:43.400 had to go through like being shadowy, you 756 00:28:43.400 --> 00:28:46.180 know, supercoder drug money in the beginning. Then 757 00:28:46.180 --> 00:28:47.500 it's got to go through this wave of 758 00:28:47.500 --> 00:28:49.300 AI attacks. It probably will have to go 759 00:28:49.300 --> 00:28:51.980 through a wave of quantum compute. And, you 760 00:28:51.980 --> 00:28:53.100 know, there might be sub -sadowing. subsequent waves 761 00:28:53.100 --> 00:28:55.660 after that that we can't even see yet. 762 00:28:55.660 --> 00:28:56.680 And so I think it's going to be 763 00:28:56.680 --> 00:28:59.740 just, this is the thing. You got to 764 00:28:59.740 --> 00:29:01.080 make it from here to there with your 765 00:29:01.080 --> 00:29:03.920 Bitcoin. How you do that, I think it's 766 00:29:03.920 --> 00:29:06.880 a much broader question than we've been talking 767 00:29:06.880 --> 00:29:09.300 about for years in the Bitcoin community. And 768 00:29:09.300 --> 00:29:10.740 I think we've all been like, there's one 769 00:29:10.740 --> 00:29:12.260 answer and it's this. And it's like, that's 770 00:29:12.260 --> 00:29:15.060 not true, actually. There are ways to make 771 00:29:15.060 --> 00:29:17.180 it from here to there. And I don't 772 00:29:17.180 --> 00:29:18.820 even necessarily know that it's about the type 773 00:29:18.820 --> 00:29:20.260 of person you are. I think it's maybe 774 00:29:20.260 --> 00:29:23.360 about the time and the moment. market that 775 00:29:23.360 --> 00:29:25.340 it is. For instance, like, the amount of 776 00:29:25.340 --> 00:29:27.060 time and effort that you have to put 777 00:29:27.060 --> 00:29:29.480 in in a cybersecurity sense, you have to 778 00:29:29.480 --> 00:29:31.040 be a pretty, okay, in order to be 779 00:29:31.040 --> 00:29:33.160 like pretty good and pretty secure on like 780 00:29:33.160 --> 00:29:35.180 the Bitcoin self -custody side over the next, 781 00:29:35.180 --> 00:29:36.940 like, let's say, two years, you have to 782 00:29:36.940 --> 00:29:40.600 be pretty tech forward with LLMs, probably. You 783 00:29:40.600 --> 00:29:44.160 have to be pretty savvy about Bitcoin security

784 00:29:44.160 --> 00:29:47.000 and Bitcoin custody in general. And then, you 785 00:29:47.000 --> 00:29:48.920 know, you have to be calm, cool, collected, 786 00:29:48.920 --> 00:29:50.560 and level -headed. And like, that's kind of 787 00:29:50.560 --> 00:29:52.480 a narrow band of people. There's not that 788 00:29:52.480 --> 00:29:54.620 many. people in that band. So like, let's 789 00:29:54.620 --> 00:29:56.120 say that people need to be in, like, 790 00:29:56.120 --> 00:29:57.420 I don't know, the ETFs with the ability 791 00:29:57.420 --> 00:29:59.480 to custody, uh, to take custody back at 792 00:29:59.480 --> 00:30:01.620 some point for like a stretch of time. 793 00:30:01.620 --> 00:30:04.820 I think it's fine. Exchanges, same thing, different 794 00:30:04.820 --> 00:30:07.580 multisicorum, same thing. There is no like, again, 795 00:30:07.580 --> 00:30:09.180 it's like what Brandon just said. This, this 796 00:30:09.180 --> 00:30:10.360 idea that we want to reach for this 797 00:30:10.360 --> 00:30:13.000 one right answer to make it easy on 798 00:30:13.000 --> 00:30:16.680 ourselves, psychologically easy, is fake. It's not going 799 00:30:16.680 --> 00:30:18.580 to be psychologically easy. It's going to be 800 00:30:18.580 --> 00:30:21.440 psychologically difficult. Okay. This is not going to 801 00:30:21.440 --> 00:30:22.440 be easy, piece. This is not going to 802 00:30:22.440 --> 00:30:24.100 be easy, piece. lemon squeezy. This is going 803 00:30:24.100 --> 00:30:26.700 to be difficult, difficult, lemon difficult. Do you 804 00:30:26.700 --> 00:30:28.940 know what I'm saying? Yeah. I get it. 805 00:30:28.940 --> 00:30:30.160 Walker, you want to add something there? Maybe 806 00:30:30.160 --> 00:30:31.700 do your ad and then I'll tee you 807 00:30:31.700 --> 00:30:33.440 up for the next story as well. Just 808 00:30:33.440 --> 00:30:35.400 very quickly, I agree with what these guys 809 00:30:35.400 --> 00:30:36.720 are saying. And I think like this is 810 00:30:36.720 --> 00:30:38.320 the big, there's been a little bit of 811 00:30:38.320 --> 00:30:40.800 a reckoning for bit pointers, I think, where 812 00:30:40.800 --> 00:30:43.460 it's, I mean, it's things that should have 813 00:30:43.460 --> 00:30:45.340 been obvious, but perhaps weren't because we were 814 00:30:45.340 --> 00:30:49.240 a little bit too blinded by our desire 815 00:30:49.240 --> 00:30:52.900 to help people do things right. The reality 816 00:30:52.900 --> 00:30:56.120 is that doing things right, doing things, quote, 817 00:30:56.120 --> 00:30:59.020 right, is not right for everyone. Everybody needs 818 00:30:59.020 --> 00:31:00.680 to evaluate this at a personal level. Also, 819 00:31:00.680 --> 00:31:02.600 nobody can make this decision for you. You 820 00:31:02.600 --> 00:31:04.020 don't have to listen to any fucking one 821 00:31:04.020 --> 00:31:05.740 of us. Do what you think is going 822 00:31:05.740 --> 00:31:07.400 to work out best, but then own that,

823 00:31:07.400 --> 00:31:09.160 you know, to Brandon's point, take the responsibility 824 00:31:09.160 --> 00:31:11.360 for it. Because it is on you, if 825 00:31:11.360 --> 00:31:13.140 you screw something up. And if you, you 826 00:31:13.140 --> 00:31:16.020 know, are running your own, like, you know, 827 00:31:16.020 --> 00:31:18.100 a homegrown Bitcoin custody set up and your 828 00:31:18.100 --> 00:31:21.020 PGP gets compromised. Then you report. every core 829 00:31:21.020 --> 00:31:22.800 dev to the FBI and then you, you 830 00:31:22.800 --> 00:31:24.620 know, fork off Bitcoin or something like that. 831 00:31:24.620 --> 00:31:28.180 Like, that's on you. That is on you. 832 00:31:28.180 --> 00:31:29.880 And again, do what is going to be 833 00:31:29.880 --> 00:31:31.140 right for you and your family that you 834 00:31:31.140 --> 00:31:33.220 are comfortable with. And also just like spread 835 00:31:33.220 --> 00:31:36.060 out your risk a little bit. Like, you 836 00:31:36.060 --> 00:31:38.420 know, it's like, oh, with Bitcoin, you don't 837 00:31:38.420 --> 00:31:39.640 have to say the whole, you don't, you 838 00:31:39.640 --> 00:31:40.780 know, you can have all your eggs in 839 00:31:40.780 --> 00:31:42.840 one basket and it's okay. Yeah, but like, 840 00:31:42.840 --> 00:31:44.820 make sure that basket isn't a single point 841 00:31:44.820 --> 00:31:46.820 of failure for you, too. You can still 842 00:31:46.820 --> 00:31:48.380 be all in on Bitcoin exposure, if that's 843 00:31:48.380 --> 00:31:50.160 what you want to be. But make sure 844 00:31:50.160 --> 00:31:50.880 that there's, you're, you know, isn't a single 845 00:31:50.880 --> 00:31:52.840 point of failure in that Bitcoin exposure that 846 00:31:52.840 --> 00:31:56.200 results in you losing all of the coins, 847 00:31:56.200 --> 00:31:58.100 all the stats that you've worked, worked your 848 00:31:58.100 --> 00:32:00.440 ass off for and sacrificed for. Like, that 849 00:32:00.440 --> 00:32:02.400 is the part that breaks my heart the 850 00:32:02.400 --> 00:32:03.800 most thing with all these things happening. It's 851 00:32:03.800 --> 00:32:05.840 like, Bitcoin is the ones who try to 852 00:32:05.840 --> 00:32:10.520 do things right. Made sacrifices. Fucking, you know, 853 00:32:10.520 --> 00:32:13.140 did the American huddle move, riding a fucking 854 00:32:13.140 --> 00:32:15.780 moped like a, you know, crazy person, like 855 00:32:15.780 --> 00:32:19.020 doing things that are like, you know, out 856 00:32:19.020 --> 00:32:22.000 there. off and then you do all that 857 00:32:22.000 --> 00:32:23.860 stuff right and you still get boned that 858 00:32:23.860 --> 00:32:26.240 there's no two ways around that that just 859 00:32:26.240 --> 00:32:28.380 fucking sucks so do what you need to 860 00:32:28.380 --> 00:32:31.540 do to spread out your risk be realistic 861 00:32:31.540 --> 00:32:33.580 about this and you don't have to work 862 00:32:33.580 --> 00:32:35.780 like the time for like purity tests around 863 00:32:35.780 --> 00:32:39.120 this shit is done it's done whatever you 864 00:32:39.120 --> 00:32:41.160 need to do to not get fucked is 865 00:32:41.160 --> 00:32:42.940 what you should be doing end of rent 866 00:32:42.940 --> 00:32:46.100 love that love that okay boys good really 867 00:32:46.100 --> 00:32:48.800 really great yeah go ahead the I think 868 00:32:48.800 --> 00:32:51.000 that plate is there's there's a lot there's 869 00:32:51.000 --> 00:32:52.920 a fair amount of people that have Bitcoin. 870 00:32:52.920 --> 00:32:55.840 And I think the memes of self -custody 871 00:32:55.840 --> 00:32:58.200 have done its job. Not to say there's 872 00:32:58.200 --> 00:32:59.560 going to be more in the future that 873 00:32:59.560 --> 00:33:02.340 won't. However, we've done a good job, you 874 00:33:02.340 --> 00:33:04.160 know, and everyone has it's saying, hey, you 875 00:33:04.160 --> 00:33:05.380 need to self -custody. Well, that's got a 876 00:33:05.380 --> 00:33:06.740 lot of people into self -custody. That will 877 00:33:06.740 --> 00:33:08.520 be fine over time. And there will be 878 00:33:08.520 --> 00:33:10.000 a lot of people that are fine, which 879 00:33:10.000 --> 00:33:11.900 creates that base layer, which a lot of 880 00:33:11.900 --> 00:33:13.320 the coins, most of coins, are in private 881 00:33:13.320 --> 00:33:15.720 custody still. And that's amazing. And so now 882 00:33:15.720 --> 00:33:17.400 you're trying to get these other upper echelons 883 00:33:17.400 --> 00:33:19.100 like the guys are talking about. that's where 884 00:33:19.100 --> 00:33:21.280 these different solutions are going to come about. 885 00:33:21.280 --> 00:33:22.360 And that's just the way of the world. 886 00:33:22.360 --> 00:33:24.500 So anyway, it didn't go for not because 887 00:33:24.500 --> 00:33:26.040 a lot of people are in self -custody 888 00:33:26.040 --> 00:33:28.100 and did learn these things because of that 889 00:33:28.100 --> 00:33:30.360 culture. Now the culture changes, which is tough 890 00:33:30.360 --> 00:33:31.780 for all of us, changes tough. And now 891 00:33:31.780 --> 00:33:33.640 we're starting to learn that, going back to 892 00:33:33.640 --> 00:33:34.960 the purity testing is what the guys are 893 00:33:34.960 --> 00:33:37.280 speaking of. Yeah, I agree with everything you 894 00:33:37.280 --> 00:33:40.380 guys said there. It's well put. And, you 895 00:33:40.380 --> 00:33:42.260 know, it is true that there comes a 896 00:33:42.260 --> 00:33:43.980 point where it's like, we've done, we've done 897 00:33:43.980 --> 00:33:46.040 what we could. And now we're going to 898 00:33:46.040 --> 00:33:48.040 the next, you know, sort of era for 899 00:33:48.040 --> 00:33:50.300 custody. for Bitcoin. Yeah, exactly. And so if 900 00:33:50.300 --> 00:33:51.560 you got it, you got it, if you 901 00:33:51.560 --> 00:33:54.960 didn't, well, you know, good luck moving on. 902 00:33:54.960 --> 00:33:56.500 And

we hope for the best for you. 903 00:33:56.500 --> 00:33:58.040 When we come back, we're going to talk 904 00:33:58.040 --> 00:34:01.400 about some big AI stories. Some anthropic S1 905 00:34:01.400 --> 00:34:03.760 stuff and I think maybe some other, maybe 906 00:34:03.760 --> 00:34:07.440 more important stories about the side effects of 907 00:34:07.440 --> 00:34:08.800 these things proliferating. So if you're in the 908 00:34:08.800 --> 00:34:11.440 chat, drop a like, subscribe, throw some chairs, 909 00:34:11.440 --> 00:34:12.760 call us names and all that good stuff. 910 00:34:12.760 --> 00:34:15.160 We'll be back in a minute or two. 911 00:34:15.160 --> 00:34:16.700 Unless for some reason you think they're about 912 00:34:16.700 --> 00:34:18.620 to stop printing and stop borrowing, You know 913 00:34:18.620 --> 00:34:20.600 exactly where Bitcoin is going, and whether your 914 00:34:20.600 --> 00:34:21.980 stack is already at the size, where you 915 00:34:21.980 --> 00:34:23.040 know you should do something about it, or 916 00:34:23.040 --> 00:34:24.780 it's headed there, it's time your security caught 917 00:34:24.780 --> 00:34:27.320 up. That's why you need CASA Premium. Your 918 00:34:27.320 --> 00:34:30.040 Bitcoin secured across five keys. 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Everything is hosted in the U 964 00:36:04.580 --> 00:36:07.620 .S., powered by hydro, and mining equipment may 965 00:36:07.620 --> 00:36:11.840 qualify for 100 % your one bonus depreciation. 966 00:36:11.840 --> 00:36:16.140 Learn more at abundant mines .com slash sessions. 967 00:36:16.140 --> 00:36:20.580 Okay, boys. Pretty big story, obviously, today, because 968 00:36:20.580 --> 00:36:25.480 of the anthropic IPO, which I suppose it's 969 00:36:25.480 --> 00:36:26.880 going to happen in November, by the sounds 970 00:36:26.880 --> 00:36:28.520 of it. They had to release some financial 971 00:36:28.520 --> 00:36:31.420 data. None of it particularly pretty. They lost 972 00:36:31.420 --> 00:36:33.680 $42 billion. I think they're at about an 973 00:36:33.680 --> 00:36:36.960 $80 billion run rate. And it seems to 974 00:36:36.960 --> 00:36:38.940 me like they're relying on a number of 975 00:36:38.940 --> 00:36:40.880 things going their way, including, as we've mentioned 976 00:36:40.880 --> 00:36:43.620 here before, the cost of tokens not trending 977 00:36:43.620 --> 00:36:45.860 to zero, even though I think probably the 978 00:36:45.860 --> 00:36:48.460 three of us think that it will. Of 979

00:36:48.460 --> 00:36:50.460 course, also in the S1, just in case 980 00:36:50.460 --> 00:36:52.680 you really weren't sure about whether or not 981 00:36:52.680 --> 00:36:54.380 you wanted to buy some shares. Anthropic warrants 982 00:36:54.380 --> 00:36:57.760 of catastrophic existential risks to humanity. How many 983 00:36:57.760 --> 00:37:01.480 can I put you down for, sir? Sort 984 00:37:01.480 --> 00:37:05.060 of adjacent story here. Interesting. Microsoft offering buyouts 985 00:37:05.060 --> 00:37:09.700 to 60 ,000 employees. That represents the number 986 00:37:09.700 --> 00:37:11.640 I saw about one -third of their global 987 00:37:11.640 --> 00:37:15.800 workforce. Enormous number from an enormous company. And 988 00:37:15.800 --> 00:37:19.000 this chart from Brody Ford, definitely gave me 989 00:37:19.000 --> 00:37:20.920 some pause. I mean, we've known for a 990 00:37:20.920 --> 00:37:23.220 long time that people were getting more efficient, 991 00:37:23.220 --> 00:37:24.860 or at least in theory becoming more efficient 992 00:37:24.860 --> 00:37:27.200 because of the tech available to them. But 993 00:37:27.200 --> 00:37:29.940 this is a pretty significant divergence between employee 994 00:37:29.940 --> 00:37:32.340 growth and revenue growth. So your head count 995 00:37:32.340 --> 00:37:34.620 there, obviously going down now, you know, sort 996 00:37:34.620 --> 00:37:36.940 of leveling out in 22 and now going 997 00:37:36.940 --> 00:37:40.560 down again. Meanwhile, revenue through the roof, there's 998 00:37:40.560 --> 00:37:43.560 obviously contributing factors here. Like, for example, returning 999 00:37:43.560 --> 00:37:45.400 to levels that are closer to COVID, maybe 1000 00:37:45.400 --> 00:37:48.440 even closer to like 2008. before the money 1001 00:37:48.440 --> 00:37:50.200 printer really fired up for GFC and all 1002 00:37:50.200 --> 00:37:52.560 these things started to affect the way companies 1003 00:37:52.560 --> 00:37:55.940 think about their economics. By the same token, 1004 00:37:55.940 --> 00:37:59.140 we have everyone's favorite retard Vitalik talking about 1005 00:37:59.140 --> 00:38:02.500 how he wants the, even the open source, 1006 00:38:02.500 --> 00:38:05.000 open weight models to leave out top end 1007 00:38:05.000 --> 00:38:08.360 offensive cyber capabilities from their training data. Going 1008 00:38:08.360 --> 00:38:10.480 as far as to say discriminating against use 1009 00:38:10.480 --> 00:38:12.800 cases is much less bad than discriminating against 1010 00:38:12.800 --> 00:38:15.220 users as though there's, you know, only an 1011 00:38:15.220 --> 00:38:16.920 option to do one or the other and 1012 00:38:16.920 --> 00:38:18.360 not just leave people alone. to do the 1013 00:38:18.360 --> 00:38:20.080 work that they think is important. I got 1014 00:38:20.080 --> 00:38:21.140 a big problem with a lot of this 1015 00:38:21.140 --> 00:38:23.540 stuff, but, you know, I'll pass to you, 1016 00:38:23.540 --> 00:38:25.660 First Walker, since, you know, you've been so 1017 00:38:25.660 --> 00:38:27.520 into the AI stuff lately making a bunch 1018 00:38:27.520 --> 00:38:29.240 of good stuff for you and Carla and, 1019 00:38:29.240 --> 00:38:31.500 you know, I think really experimenting in a 1020 00:38:31.500 --> 00:38:33.220 way that, I got to be honest, it's 1021 00:38:33.220 --> 00:38:35.060 impressed me. And I think it's impressed most 1022 00:38:35.060 --> 00:38:37.380 of the Bitcoin, you know, the BitCast podcast 1023 00:38:37.380 --> 00:38:40.640 back chat there. You know, I want to 1024 00:38:40.640 --> 00:38:42.420 get your thoughts on, of course, like the 1025 00:38:42.420 --> 00:38:45.200 Anthropic IPO, what does their future look like? 1026 00:38:45.200 --> 00:38:46.800 But also, talk to me a little bit 1027 00:38:46.800 --> 00:38:50.320 about, um, whether or not we're getting, we're 1028 00:38:50.320 --> 00:38:51.620 going to wind up in this future where 1029 00:38:51.620 --> 00:38:54.300 even the open weight, open source models are, 1030 00:38:54.300 --> 00:38:58.500 you know, encumbered by ethics and other stuff 1031 00:38:58.500 --> 00:39:01.540 that's, you know, at the very least subjective, 1032 00:39:01.540 --> 00:39:04.300 if not just outright, you know, wrong in 1033 00:39:04.300 --> 00:39:07.320 my view. Go ahead. I think it's important 1034 00:39:07.320 --> 00:39:09.100 to remember that as it relates to the 1035 00:39:09.100 --> 00:39:11.420 conversation, like the conversation about open weight, open 1036 00:39:11.420 --> 00:39:16.000 source, that genie is out of the bottle, 1037 00:39:16.000 --> 00:39:18.540 you know, or to quote Pineapple Express. monkeys 1038 00:39:18.540 --> 00:39:20.260 out of the bottle, like, you don't go 1039 00:39:20.260 --> 00:39:25.640 back in, you know. Point being, like, this 1040 00:39:25.640 --> 00:39:28.500 is the nature of open source, and information 1041 00:39:28.500 --> 00:39:30.120 wants to be free, and once it's out 1042 00:39:30.120 --> 00:39:33.120 there, you can't, you're not going to get 1043 00:39:33.120 --> 00:39:35.560 rid of it, right? There's too many places 1044 00:39:35.560 --> 00:39:37.160 that that's already been saved. There's too many 1045 00:39:37.160 --> 00:39:41.040 places that's been saved locally. So like, okay, 1046 00:39:41.040 --> 00:39:42.720 I mean, I think Vitalik's point is, I 1047 00:39:42.720 --> 00:39:45.700 can understand his sentiment. Like, yeah, come on, 1048 00:39:45.700 --> 00:39:48.380 guys, let's not make these A. I'm super 1049 00:39:48.380 --> 00:39:51.220 good at hacking the shit out of people. 1050 00:39:51.220 --> 00:39:53.020 Sure, that's nice. Man, let's not make these 1051 00:39:53.020 --> 00:39:55.900 guns super good at blowing holes in people. 1052 00:39:55.900 --> 00:39:58.940 Like, this is, this is a, this is 1053 00:39:58.940 --> 00:40:01.220 a fucking weapon that can be used offensively 1054 00:40:01.220 --> 00:40:03.900 or defensively.

If you cripple it in one 1055 00:40:03.900 --> 00:40:06.000 sense, it's going to necessarily make it worse 1056 00:40:06.000 --> 00:40:08.440 at the other. Because you're not actually taking 1057 00:40:08.440 --> 00:40:10.940 away its capability. You're just somehow like, you're 1058 00:40:10.940 --> 00:40:12.220 putting a little, you know, like, okay, you 1059 00:40:12.220 --> 00:40:14.600 can only shoot this gun, you know, at 1060 00:40:14.600 --> 00:40:16.780 somebody who's also got a gun, right? It's 1061 00:40:16.780 --> 00:40:17.840 like, no, no, no, no. And I really, 1062 00:40:17.840 --> 00:40:18.460 really, and I really, this might be a 1063 00:40:18.460 --> 00:40:20.600 bit of a tenuous analogy here, but I 1064 00:40:20.600 --> 00:40:23.320 personally think, like, the way to do this 1065 00:40:23.320 --> 00:40:25.860 is to actually open this shit the fuck 1066 00:40:25.860 --> 00:40:28.040 up. And, you know, it's funny, too, you 1067 00:40:28.040 --> 00:40:29.680 look at the anthropic stuff, and it's like, 1068 00:40:29.680 --> 00:40:32.360 boy, remember when, like, I don't know, I'm 1069 00:40:32.360 --> 00:40:34.300 old enough to remember a few weeks ago 1070 00:40:34.300 --> 00:40:38.500 when Dario and Sam Altman and everybody came 1071 00:40:38.500 --> 00:40:40.600 together all at once around that one fucking 1072 00:40:40.600 --> 00:40:44.500 guy who's obviously a fucking spook or something. 1073 00:40:44.500 --> 00:40:46.080 Who are you talking about? A little fucking, 1074 00:40:46.080 --> 00:40:50.260 fucking, uh, fucking, uh, Autisticianne. Harry Potter guy. 1075 00:40:50.260 --> 00:40:51.960 What did they call him? Like, Timu Harry 1076 00:40:51.960 --> 00:40:55.180 Potter. That's what we'll call him. And all 1077 00:40:55.180 --> 00:40:56.620 of a sudden, we gotta base the front. 1078 00:40:56.620 --> 00:40:57.620 Yeah, I guess we just, we gotta paste 1079 00:40:57.620 --> 00:40:58.980 the front. And then they're all like, by 1080 00:40:58.980 --> 00:41:00.620 the way, like next week it was like, 1081 00:41:00.620 --> 00:41:02.740 here's fucking three more models that will rip 1082 00:41:02.740 --> 00:41:05.020 your face off. And you're like, wait, I 1083 00:41:05.020 --> 00:41:07.160 thought, weren't we just pacing the front? Yeah, 1084 00:41:07.160 --> 00:41:10.300 well, you know, we should, but you know, 1085 00:41:10.300 --> 00:41:13.140 we gotta, I don't know, man. Like it's, 1086 00:41:13.140 --> 00:41:16.120 it's all this like massive fucking k -fabe, 1087 00:41:16.120 --> 00:41:18.120 right? Where they're all pretending like, yeah, of 1088 00:41:18.120 --> 00:41:19.960 course we gotta pace the front all of 1089 00:41:19.960 --> 00:41:22.900 the pacing the front conversation is is a 1090 00:41:22.900 --> 00:41:25.500 proxy for regulate us harder so we have 1091 00:41:25.500 --> 00:41:28.400 a bigger moat all this like vitalic being 1092 00:41:28.400 --> 00:41:29.540 like you know we should not have these 1093 00:41:29.540 --> 00:41:32.120 offensive capabilities and these open weight models what 1094 00:41:32.120 --> 00:41:34.240 he's saying is we shouldn't have open weight 1095 00:41:34.240 --> 00:41:37.260 models like that's what he's actually saying and 1096 00:41:37.260 --> 00:41:38.980 vital i'm not i'm not i don't want 1097 00:41:38.980 --> 00:41:42.720 to assign uh assign any malintent or assume 1098 00:41:42.720 --> 00:41:44.720 that you can you can he's proven it 1099 00:41:44.720 --> 00:41:47.680 before like he's he's he's a guy he's 1100 00:41:47.680 --> 00:41:47.860 a guy he's a guy he's a guy 1101 00:41:47.860 --> 00:41:51.960 guy who now is in, defend my castle 1102 00:41:51.960 --> 00:41:54.460 and my riches mode. He hasn't done anything 1103 00:41:54.460 --> 00:41:57.400 of value, produced anything new in 10 fucking 1104 00:41:57.400 --> 00:42:00.040 years. He knows it. We all know it. 1105 00:42:00.040 --> 00:42:01.280 And now he's trying to do this on 1106 00:42:01.280 --> 00:42:02.940 the AI side. It's not a mystery. It's 1107 00:42:02.940 --> 00:42:04.840 not a mystery at all. Yeah, this to 1108 00:42:04.840 --> 00:42:06.880 me is just really obvious, K Fabe, across 1109 00:42:06.880 --> 00:42:09.880 the board, where again, and we've been saying 1110 00:42:09.880 --> 00:42:11.880 this, like, all of us on our various 1111 00:42:11.880 --> 00:42:14.700 shows for like, I don't know, a couple 1112 00:42:14.700 --> 00:42:17.040 of years now, like, which is a while, 1113 00:42:17.040 --> 00:42:18.720 like a couple of of years of saying 1114 00:42:18.720 --> 00:42:21.500 since Altman and Dario a couple years ago 1115 00:42:21.500 --> 00:42:22.960 started going in front of Congress and being 1116 00:42:22.960 --> 00:42:25.980 like, we want you to regulate us, please. 1117 00:42:25.980 --> 00:42:28.400 Like, we're just, you know, please and please, 1118 00:42:28.400 --> 00:42:31.160 please, have some more regulation, please, you know, 1119 00:42:31.160 --> 00:42:32.720 like they want to do that because they 1120 00:42:32.720 --> 00:42:34.920 have to have a regulatory moat because their 1121 00:42:34.920 --> 00:42:37.240 business models are fundamentally unsustainable in the marginal 1122 00:42:37.240 --> 00:42:40.320 cost of production for these tokens drops down 1123 00:42:40.320 --> 00:42:43.080 to the marginal cost of production. It's going 1124 00:42:43.080 --> 00:42:44.960 to go down to basically the input energy 1125 00:42:44.960 --> 00:42:48.160 costs because the data side of this, Like, 1126 00:42:48.160 --> 00:42:50.140 I think they even said in the, uh, 1127 00:42:50.140 --> 00:42:52.140 I skim, I skim the filing. I didn't 1128 00:42:52.140 --> 00:42:53.420 like go, go deep into it. And then 1129 00:42:53.420 --> 00:42:54.600 I had the clanker do some stuff that 1130 00:42:54.600 --> 00:42:56.880 I'm going to probably cover with Eric Kason 1131 00:42:56.880 --> 00:42:58.780 on our new weekly show on Fridays, not 1132 00:42:58.780

--> 00:43:00.400 at the same time at this show earlier, 1133 00:43:00.400 --> 00:43:02.700 the reckoning. Uh, where we reckon with these 1134 00:43:02.700 --> 00:43:04.360 things and we'll have our AI clanker co 1135 00:43:04.360 --> 00:43:05.780 -host joining us, which is going to be 1136 00:43:05.780 --> 00:43:09.360 fucking trippy. But, uh, point being, like, they 1137 00:43:09.360 --> 00:43:13.000 said basically the, the primary value driver for 1138 00:43:13.000 --> 00:43:17.920 these frontier models is their proprietary weights. and 1139 00:43:17.920 --> 00:43:21.840 training data. Like, that's it. That's what they 1140 00:43:21.840 --> 00:43:26.800 have. That's the whole game. So people like 1141 00:43:26.800 --> 00:43:29.320 Fatalic coming out against basically, I mean, you 1142 00:43:29.320 --> 00:43:30.960 know, he's, he's not coming out against open 1143 00:43:30.960 --> 00:43:33.440 source, right? Like, on the surface, but that's 1144 00:43:33.440 --> 00:43:35.060 what he's doing. He's fancy. Open source, open 1145 00:43:35.060 --> 00:43:37.880 weight. That's what he's coming out against. Dario, 1146 00:43:37.880 --> 00:43:39.920 like, all of these guys, all these big, 1147 00:43:39.920 --> 00:43:42.960 you know, these big little boys coming out 1148 00:43:42.960 --> 00:43:45.300 against open source, open weight in one way 1149 00:43:45.300 --> 00:43:48.060 or another. K -fabing in some. way or 1150 00:43:48.060 --> 00:43:51.940 another. They just want you to not have 1151 00:43:51.940 --> 00:43:53.580 access to this stuff because they know it 1152 00:43:53.580 --> 00:43:57.080 fucks their moat. Like, it takes, bends their 1153 00:43:57.080 --> 00:43:58.360 moat over a barrel and shows it the 1154 00:43:58.360 --> 00:44:02.500 50 states. I think that it's a better 1155 00:44:02.500 --> 00:44:05.700 option to say, rip the fucking breaks off 1156 00:44:05.700 --> 00:44:08.140 of all these things. This is going to 1157 00:44:08.140 --> 00:44:10.600 get really bad. You may as well give 1158 00:44:10.600 --> 00:44:12.800 the people who are trying to defend against 1159 00:44:12.800 --> 00:44:15.980 this stuff the same tools as the attackers. 1160 00:44:15.980 --> 00:44:17.860 Because right now there's an asymmetry to the 1161 00:44:17.860 --> 00:44:20.440 this. And that is part of the problem, 1162 00:44:20.440 --> 00:44:22.760 I think. But I'll end the mini rant 1163 00:44:22.760 --> 00:44:24.580 there. Can we just break for a second 1164 00:44:24.580 --> 00:44:27.080 here? Ben is in the back state. I 1165 00:44:27.080 --> 00:44:28.520 don't know what he's doing. It looks like 1166 00:44:28.520 --> 00:44:29.760 he's on a bed with another man, to 1167 00:44:29.760 --> 00:44:30.680 be honest with you. I guess we're going 1168 00:44:30.680 --> 00:44:32.360 to find out here. What what fuck is 1169 00:44:32.360 --> 00:44:34.380 going on? Oh, God. He has two other 1170 00:44:34.380 --> 00:44:38.460 men. Jesus Christ. Oh. You're on mute. You're

1171 00:44:38.460 --> 00:44:39.160 on mute. You're on mute. I couldn't have 1172 00:44:39.160 --> 00:44:41.020 been there before. Have another beer. Have another 1173 00:44:41.020 --> 00:44:44.740 vodka. Are you still on mute? You're still 1174 00:44:44.740 --> 00:44:47.560 on mute. You better be drinking Mugronies. Jesus 1175 00:44:47.560 --> 00:44:51.800 Christ. Oh, we're good. We're good. We're just 1176 00:44:51.800 --> 00:44:56.380 here at big Bitcoin headquarters, um, uh, propaganda 1177 00:44:56.380 --> 00:44:59.220 officer, Mr. Chris here. Uh, we also have 1178 00:44:59.220 --> 00:45:03.680 made X in stopless for some reason. Oh, 1179 00:45:03.680 --> 00:45:07.140 man. He just wanted to talk and everything 1180 00:45:07.140 --> 00:45:09.860 is going according to plan. Tether is fully 1181 00:45:09.860 --> 00:45:13.220 funding everything. Nathan is also, uh, saying a 1182 00:45:13.220 --> 00:45:15.840 quick hello. Diversity officer. uh, there's a huge 1183 00:45:15.840 --> 00:45:19.380 diversity office. Look at this party. Look at 1184 00:45:19.380 --> 00:45:23.540 this party. Rocko. What, dude? I have a 1185 00:45:23.540 --> 00:45:25.980 lot. We've got a whole cast characters. Hi, 1186 00:45:25.980 --> 00:45:44.700 Dean, officer. Hello, friends. Hi, friends. All scada.! 1187 00:45:44.700 --> 00:45:47.400 Man, I saw. It's the problem with AI 1188 00:45:47.400 --> 00:45:48.940 is like, assholes like that can just get 1189 00:45:48.940 --> 00:45:50.980 access to the admin keys. You know what 1190 00:45:50.980 --> 00:45:52.920 I mean? It's like, what the fuck, dude? 1191 00:45:52.920 --> 00:45:55.220 We're in the middle of a pot here, 1192 00:45:55.220 --> 00:45:58.440 dude. Gee, he's trying to work here. Why? 1193 00:45:58.440 --> 00:46:00.360 The real question is, that looks to me 1194 00:46:00.360 --> 00:46:02.280 to be some kind of restaurant. There's guys 1195 00:46:02.280 --> 00:46:04.940 wearing blazers and Maidex has no shirt on. 1196 00:46:04.940 --> 00:46:07.140 He's topless. He's often naked. He's often naked. 1197 00:46:07.140 --> 00:46:08.840 I see that. I've seen his dick like 1198 00:46:08.840 --> 00:46:10.560 a handful of times. He's an artist. What 1199 00:46:10.560 --> 00:46:11.300 are you going to do? He's a bogey 1200 00:46:11.300 --> 00:46:13.900 shirt. I guess. I guess. I don't know. 1201 00:46:13.900 --> 00:46:18.160 Okay, well, what were we talking about? Tell 1202 00:46:18.160 --> 00:46:21.360 me about this. I was going to button 1203 00:46:21.360 --> 00:46:25.400 up Walker's point here, which was Walker was 1204 00:46:25.400 --> 00:46:30.060 talking about Redcapped. There we go. Yeah, yeah. 1205 00:46:30.060 --> 00:46:35.000 So politically, this is basically EAs versus EACs. 1206 00:46:35.000 --> 00:46:35.840 So for anybody who doesn't know in the 1207 00:46:35.840 --> 00:46:39.520 audience, EA is effective altruist. EAC is a 1208 00:46:39.520 --> 00:46:42.560 reactionary movement that popped up to counter effective

1209 00:46:42.560 --> 00:46:45.180 altruist that is effective altruist, effective accelerationists or 1210 00:46:45.180 --> 00:46:49.400 effective accelerationism. And effective altruist, that's what Sam 1211 00:46:49.400 --> 00:46:52.540 Bankman Freed was at FTX. And it started 1212 00:46:52.540 --> 00:46:56.120 as an ideology that was about, you know, 1213 00:46:56.120 --> 00:47:00.500 spreadsheet charity, like basically taking your dollars and 1214 00:47:00.500 --> 00:47:03.000 doing the most asymmetric good, like taking American 1215 00:47:03.000 --> 00:47:04.840 dollars and spending them in Africa so that 1216 00:47:04.840 --> 00:47:06.560 you could do more good by spending them 1217 00:47:06.560 --> 00:47:08.240 over there, et cetera, et cetera. And it's 1218 00:47:08.240 --> 00:47:13.420 morphed into this very, like, calm, safetyist, sort 1219 00:47:13.420 --> 00:47:15.640 of like, it's, you can see it in 1220 00:47:15.640 --> 00:47:17.860 the weird marketing of Anthropic. The weird marketing 1221 00:47:17.860 --> 00:47:20.820 is, we're going to kill everyone. This thing 1222 00:47:20.820 --> 00:47:22.520 is a runaway freight train. We're going to 1223 00:47:22.520 --> 00:47:24.180 take all your jobs. We're going to fuck 1224 00:47:24.180 --> 00:47:26.780 all your wives. Nobody can stop it. And, 1225 00:47:26.780 --> 00:47:29.340 yeah, buy our stock. And it's like, what? 1226 00:47:29.340 --> 00:47:33.220 What the fuck? Yeah. And then you got 1227 00:47:33.220 --> 00:47:35.800 the effective acceleration as guys who are gearing 1228 00:47:35.800 --> 00:47:38.300 up against them politically. And some of those 1229 00:47:38.300 --> 00:47:40.180 guys are like Mark Zuckerberg is an effective 1230 00:47:40.180 --> 00:47:43.520 accelerations guy like Peter Thiel, Palantir guys, are 1231 00:47:43.520 --> 00:47:46.920 all effective accelerationsists. And they're basically fighting this 1232 00:47:46.920 --> 00:47:50.100 fight, you know, sort of backstabbing each other, 1233 00:47:50.100 --> 00:47:53.000 you know, in Washington about who has carte 1234 00:47:53.000 --> 00:47:55.740 blanche here. Is it the open source open 1235 00:47:55.740 --> 00:47:58.180 -weight guys? Or is it the closed -source 1236 00:47:58.180 --> 00:48:00.220 guys. And the closed -source guys represent EA. 1237 00:48:00.220 --> 00:48:03.580 And the open -source guys represent EAC. So 1238 00:48:03.580 --> 00:48:05.360 those are the two ideologies that are fighting 1239 00:48:05.360 --> 00:48:07.280 this out. And they're going to fight it 1240 00:48:07.280 --> 00:48:10.160 out. heavy over the next few years going 1241 00:48:10.160 --> 00:48:12.100 into the 28 election. And the 28 election 1242 00:48:12.100 --> 00:48:14.520 will actually be primarily probably a fight between 1243 00:48:14.520 --> 00:48:16.760 the EAs and the EACs, despite all the 1244 00:48:16.760 --> 00:48:19.320 other stuff that's going to be going on. 1245 00:48:19.320 --> 00:48:21.820 Yeah, I agree that. I think, do you 1246 00:48:21.820 --> 00:48:25.880 remember Hoddle if Vitalik was a funder of 1247 00:48:25.880 --> 00:48:30.420 the, I think he was an E, definitely 1248 00:48:30.420 --> 00:48:32.120 was a EA. He's a, he's a, he's 1249 00:48:32.120 --> 00:48:33.200 a EA through and through. Yeah, but what 1250 00:48:33.200 --> 00:48:34.680 did he fund them? I think he did 1251 00:48:34.680 --> 00:48:37.360 fund the altruist movement, right? Maybe through SBF. 1252 00:48:37.360 --> 00:48:37.520 I think it was a, he definitely was 1253 00:48:37.520 --> 00:48:38.500 a, he definitely was a EA. through SBF, 1254 00:48:38.500 --> 00:48:40.280 if I remember correctly. I'm sure he did. 1255 00:48:40.280 --> 00:48:42.220 Yeah, he's everything he's ever written is, he's 1256 00:48:42.220 --> 00:48:44.580 got EA written all over it. Where I 1257 00:48:44.580 --> 00:48:45.720 was like, you know, Walker is like a 1258 00:48:45.720 --> 00:48:48.500 quintessential, uh, accelerationist where he's just like, you 1259 00:48:48.500 --> 00:48:50.420 know, you know, we gotta go into front 1260 00:48:50.420 --> 00:48:53.140 here, bro. And I side with Walker. I'm 1261 00:48:53.140 --> 00:48:55.020 EAC too, you know, because there is no 1262 00:48:55.020 --> 00:48:58.160 to be a Ludditer is, it's just like, 1263 00:48:58.160 --> 00:49:00.820 you can't do it. It's impossible. No, no. 1264 00:49:00.820 --> 00:49:03.300 Why are they all of the effective altruists 1265 00:49:03.300 --> 00:49:06.400 like low tea? They're just low tea. Say 1266 00:49:06.400 --> 00:49:10.280 it. Why are they all also in these 1267 00:49:10.280 --> 00:49:15.440 weird polyamorous sex cults with each other? I 1268 00:49:15.440 --> 00:49:16.980 talked about this on another pod, but there's 1269 00:49:16.980 --> 00:49:19.100 this thing called SlutCon, which was organized by 1270 00:49:19.100 --> 00:49:22.520 the effective altruist. And, uh, yeah, yeah, it's 1271 00:49:22.520 --> 00:49:25.220 like the in -cell crowd. Oh, we lose 1272 00:49:25.220 --> 00:49:27.340 Hoddle? Where do you go? Yeah, you had 1273 00:49:27.340 --> 00:49:29.160 to submit a doctor. He's back. He's back. 1274 00:49:29.160 --> 00:49:32.140 Sluts. Am I?! Can you please, can you 1275 00:49:32.140 --> 00:49:34.820 please continue about? Am I five? No, no. 1276 00:49:34.820 --> 00:49:37.060 So there was this thing called slutcon. and 1277 00:49:37.060 --> 00:49:39.720 the effective altruist had to submit a form, 1278 00:49:39.720 --> 00:49:41.400 you know, giving like a whole dossier on 1279 00:49:41.400 --> 00:49:43.360 their sex lives and who they are and 1280 00:49:43.360 --> 00:49:45.100 what they're into and all the, you know, 1281 00:49:45.100 --> 00:49:46.720 whatever, in order to be invited into this 1282 00:49:46.720 --> 00:49:48.460 thing. And then there were sex worker girls 1283 00:49:48.460 --> 00:49:50.500 and like the whole thing. So again, like 1284 00:49:50.500 --> 00:49:52.600 anywhere you find these EA types, you

find 1285 00:49:52.600 --> 00:49:55.380 this sort of weird cuddle puddle of like 1286 00:49:55.380 --> 00:49:57.720 glasses, fog nerds who are doing weird stuff 1287 00:49:57.720 --> 00:49:59.900 to each other's butts. And not that there's 1288 00:49:59.900 --> 00:50:01.500 anything wrong with it, it just makes me 1289 00:50:01.500 --> 00:50:04.500 question what's going on over there, you know? 1290 00:50:04.500 --> 00:50:06.320 I'm not here to judge. I like, invite 1291 00:50:06.320 --> 00:50:07.780 me to the weird sex party let's do 1292 00:50:07.780 --> 00:50:11.660 it but i'm i'm curious i'm dubious you 1293 00:50:11.660 --> 00:50:14.460 know some people might know some people might 1294 00:50:14.460 --> 00:50:18.260 don't invite me to the party at unreal 1295 00:50:18.260 --> 00:50:20.620 we don't know we don't know no no 1296 00:50:20.620 --> 00:50:22.920 no same vibe though at davos like a 1297 00:50:22.920 --> 00:50:25.180 bunch of fucking like bunch of fucking honestly 1298 00:50:25.180 --> 00:50:27.500 like it's the older crowd it's like the 1299 00:50:27.500 --> 00:50:30.240 boomer version and then the iax are like 1300 00:50:30.240 --> 00:50:33.500 the millennial zoomer x crowd yeah it's like 1301 00:50:33.500 --> 00:50:36.040 it's all very malthusian coded under the guys 1302 00:50:36.040 --> 00:50:37.400 of like we just want to help everybody 1303 00:50:37.400 --> 00:50:40.440 but maybe the only way to save humanity 1304 00:50:40.440 --> 00:50:43.600 is to to kill most of humanity well 1305 00:50:43.600 --> 00:50:45.680 anyway back to the weird butt stuff like 1306 00:50:45.680 --> 00:50:47.960 by the way you know the wef i 1307 00:50:47.960 --> 00:50:49.640 i talked to a person who worked at 1308 00:50:49.640 --> 00:50:52.040 the web and they told me that all 1309 00:50:52.040 --> 00:50:53.720 of that shit that happens on stage is 1310 00:50:53.720 --> 00:50:56.040 just klaus schwab being a weirdo and it's 1311 00:50:56.040 --> 00:50:59.980 just the pretext for closed door hallway off 1312 00:50:59.980 --> 00:51:02.920 the books hallway meetings between people like the 1313 00:51:02.920 --> 00:51:05.060 crown prince of saudi arabia and you know 1314 00:51:05.060 --> 00:51:07.380 whatever jerry kushab or something like that. Like, 1315 00:51:07.380 --> 00:51:08.480 so it's just, it's a place where you 1316 00:51:08.480 --> 00:51:10.980 can congregate a bunch of rich people and 1317 00:51:10.980 --> 00:51:13.080 then have these off the book meetings where 1318 00:51:13.080 --> 00:51:14.480 nobody has to say they went to the 1319 00:51:14.480 --> 00:51:18.680 other person's embassy or office or country, right? 1320 00:51:18.680 --> 00:51:19.900 And so that's the sort of the thing 1321 00:51:19.900 --> 00:51:22.400 going on there. Yeah, it's a big one. 1322 00:51:22.400 --> 00:51:24.060 Except we go there and it's just Maidx 1323 00:51:24.060 --> 00:51:26.940 shirtless. Yeah, it's everyone's circuit us. That's my 1324 00:51:26.940 -->

00:51:28.660 kind of party. It's my kind of party 1325 00:51:28.660 --> 00:51:30.840 right there. It is the best. Hey, Maynix 1326 00:51:30.840 --> 00:51:31.880 is very nice. I don't want to, I 1327 00:51:31.880 --> 00:51:33.060 don't want to disparage it. But it is 1328 00:51:33.060 --> 00:51:36.540 always. Yeah, he's always naked. Bitcoin artists. Yeah, 1329 00:51:36.540 --> 00:51:38.200 he is. He is. Okay, so we should 1330 00:51:38.200 --> 00:51:39.900 talk about one more thing on the AI 1331 00:51:39.900 --> 00:51:42.600 front here because it affects Bitcoin. I don't 1332 00:51:42.600 --> 00:51:43.840 know if I'm on the right thing here. 1333 00:51:43.840 --> 00:51:45.900 Obviously, I'm not. Here it is. Bitcoin Core 1334 00:51:45.900 --> 00:51:48.660 making changes to its security policy for the 1335 00:51:48.660 --> 00:51:50.980 first time in a long time to try 1336 00:51:50.980 --> 00:51:54.060 and get vulnerabilities that they find via AI 1337 00:51:54.060 --> 00:51:55.620 bumped up to the top of the queue 1338 00:51:55.620 --> 00:51:58.620 for attention. I don't know how I feel 1339 00:51:58.620 --> 00:52:01.580 about this. I got to be honest. I 1340 00:52:01.580 --> 00:52:05.760 love the idea of AI reviewing the core 1341 00:52:05.760 --> 00:52:08.400 code. for problems. And don't forget, I think 1342 00:52:08.400 --> 00:52:10.460 the one thing people don't understand about the 1343 00:52:10.460 --> 00:52:12.160 way that AI works for some of these, 1344 00:52:12.160 --> 00:52:16.120 for some of these vulnerabilities is that what 1345 00:52:16.120 --> 00:52:18.280 you're actually seeing here in terms of, like, 1346 00:52:18.280 --> 00:52:20.420 how to turn a vulnerability into an exploit. 1347 00:52:20.420 --> 00:52:22.700 These are different things, right? So, vulnerability is 1348 00:52:22.700 --> 00:52:26.660 a problem that may lead to someone, someone's 1349 00:52:26.660 --> 00:52:29.680 device being accessed, you know, let's say, without 1350 00:52:29.680 --> 00:52:32.360 permission. But what you're seeing in most of 1351 00:52:32.360 --> 00:52:36.540 these modern AI type fines is a chain 1352 00:52:36.540 --> 00:52:39.100 of vulnerabilities that need to be accessed together 1353 00:52:39.100 --> 00:52:42.280 in a certain order. That's where the number 1354 00:52:42.280 --> 00:52:44.520 of permutations that AI can sort of carry 1355 00:52:44.520 --> 00:52:46.720 out to find these vulnerabilities makes it a 1356 00:52:46.720 --> 00:52:49.540 valuable tool for both cyber offensive and cyber 1357 00:52:49.540 --> 00:52:52.760 cyber defensive capabilities. So I don't think core 1358 00:52:52.760 --> 00:52:55.440 is doing necessarily a bad thing here. But 1359 00:52:55.440 --> 00:52:57.940 I'm curious, you know, what you guys think 1360 00:52:57.940 --> 00:53:01.840 about changing the core security policy. What seems 1361 00:53:01.840 --> 00:53:03.520 to me to be a little bit, I 1362 00:53:03.520 --> 00:53:04.680 don't want to say on a whim, but 1363 00:53:04.680 --> 00:53:07.940 for something that never, changes to be changed 1364 00:53:07.940 --> 00:53:10.800 now after the last few months. Is this, 1365 00:53:10.800 --> 00:53:14.040 is this a good thing, a bad thing, 1366 00:53:14.040 --> 00:53:15.600 a neutral thing, Brandon, I'll start with you, 1367 00:53:15.600 --> 00:53:17.000 and then we'll kick it to the boys. 1368 00:53:17.000 --> 00:53:18.420 Yeah, I just have a quick thought of 1369 00:53:18.420 --> 00:53:19.960 this, and then I'll send them to the 1370 00:53:19.960 --> 00:53:21.860 boys here. This was obviously my last week. 1371 00:53:21.860 --> 00:53:22.840 I've not been able to dive into a 1372 00:53:22.840 --> 00:53:24.440 bunch of this. However, I will say that 1373 00:53:24.440 --> 00:53:26.780 I built with my clanker while I was 1374 00:53:26.780 --> 00:53:28.180 like, you know, holding one of the twins 1375 00:53:28.180 --> 00:53:29.360 in one arm, this and that. I'm like 1376 00:53:29.360 --> 00:53:31.260 just talking to Claude while they're sleeping, and 1377 00:53:31.260 --> 00:53:33.300 I'm just like building my briefings, like all 1378 00:53:33.300 --> 00:53:34.760 this different stuff. So now going forward, I 1379 00:53:34.760 --> 00:53:37.180 just automatically, all the briefings, whatever. It's amazing, 1380 00:53:37.180 --> 00:53:39.080 right? It's amazing what you can build with 1381 00:53:39.080 --> 00:53:41.500 the clinkers. But this did come across the 1382 00:53:41.500 --> 00:53:44.460 stack as well. And Joey, to your point, 1383 00:53:44.460 --> 00:53:47.100 my initial gut reaction was, whoa, you know, 1384 00:53:47.100 --> 00:53:48.800 what are we doing here? So again, just 1385 00:53:48.800 --> 00:53:50.860 like the, the bit coiner in you is 1386 00:53:50.860 --> 00:53:52.420 kind of like, whoa, you know, don't trust 1387 00:53:52.420 --> 00:53:54.980 verify. So I'm eager to look into this 1388 00:53:54.980 --> 00:53:57.260 more and see what's happening because my gut 1389 00:53:57.260 --> 00:53:59.280 reaction was the same as yours, Joey. And, 1390 00:53:59.280 --> 00:54:01.140 but I'm very limited knowledge on what's actually 1391 00:54:01.140 --> 00:54:02.880 happening. So I don't want to say anything 1392 00:54:02.880 --> 00:54:04.820 too crazy until I'm able to. to go 1393 00:54:04.820 --> 00:54:06.660 in and look at it more Walker what 1394 00:54:06.660 --> 00:54:07.960 about you where do you when you come 1395 00:54:07.960 --> 00:54:10.360 down on this? No, no, huddle, go ahead. 1396 00:54:10.360 --> 00:54:11.620 Yeah, okay. I was going to say, I 1397 00:54:11.620 --> 00:54:13.300 have a pretty measured reaction here, which is 1398 00:54:13.300 --> 00:54:15.760 like, uh, you know, Bitcoin engineering culture takes 1399 00:54:15.760 --> 00:54:19.000 its roots from civil engineering culture. And obviously 1400 00:54:19.000 --> 00:54:20.220 if a bridge has stood for a long 1401 00:54:20.220 --> 00:54:21.400 time, it's not something we

want to go 1402 00:54:21.400 --> 00:54:24.580 around fucking with, but if somebody, uh, invents 1403 00:54:24.580 --> 00:54:27.220 the, the anti -bridge gun that can shoot 1404 00:54:27.220 --> 00:54:29.080 holes in bridges, then yeah, I mean, like 1405 00:54:29.080 --> 00:54:30.300 we have to kind of change the posture 1406 00:54:30.300 --> 00:54:32.320 a little bit. So I think that it 1407 00:54:32.320 --> 00:54:36.640 probably is a necessity. But the feeling that 1408 00:54:36.640 --> 00:54:38.760 both Joey and Brandon are having is correct 1409 00:54:38.760 --> 00:54:41.180 in that it should be watched very carefully, 1410 00:54:41.180 --> 00:54:43.240 very closely, very closely. And we should be, 1411 00:54:43.240 --> 00:54:45.400 you know, still discussing. And we shouldn't just, 1412 00:54:45.400 --> 00:54:47.100 like, accept that, like, we have to do 1413 00:54:47.100 --> 00:54:49.460 this right this very second. That said, we 1414 00:54:49.460 --> 00:54:52.180 can't delay as long as we usually like 1415 00:54:52.180 --> 00:54:53.200 to either. So we do have to all 1416 00:54:53.200 --> 00:54:55.060 kind of, like, get with the times and, 1417 00:54:55.060 --> 00:54:56.580 like, come together and, you know, figure this 1418 00:54:56.580 --> 00:55:00.240 out in real time quickly. Really quick, Walker. 1419 00:55:00.240 --> 00:55:02.660 So I go back to politically, right, we 1420 00:55:02.660 --> 00:55:03.880 got a lot of talk of, like, we're 1421 00:55:03.880 --> 00:55:05.380 going to stack to stack Supreme Court, we're 1422 00:55:05.380 --> 00:55:07.000 going to change the filibuster and a lot 1423 00:55:07.000 --> 00:55:08.600 of these things. Now, again, some of these 1424 00:55:08.600 --> 00:55:10.620 things over time, you can change with amendments, 1425 00:55:10.620 --> 00:55:11.580 and there's got to be a lot of 1426 00:55:11.580 --> 00:55:12.840 the problem. This goes back to when you're 1427 00:55:12.840 --> 00:55:15.320 changing something in Bitcoin, you have to have 1428 00:55:15.320 --> 00:55:16.580 a lot of support, right? This is why 1429 00:55:16.580 --> 00:55:20.060 the fork failed because there wasn't broadband support 1430 00:55:20.060 --> 00:55:21.100 of like, hey, we've got a ton of 1431 00:55:21.100 --> 00:55:23.420 people. This is like a filibuster. Some of 1432 00:55:23.420 --> 00:55:24.820 these things, you get a lot of people 1433 00:55:24.820 --> 00:55:27.500 in society now that say, hey, you know, 1434 00:55:27.500 --> 00:55:29.620 Congress isn't doing anything. Nothing is going on. 1435 00:55:29.620 --> 00:55:32.000 They're not meant to do anything. They're not 1436 00:55:32.000 --> 00:55:33.820 meant to do jack shit, actually. We don't 1437 00:55:33.820 --> 00:55:34.720 want to. And, we don't want to. In 1438 00:55:34.720 --> 00:55:35.940 fact, they were only there for like a 1439 00:55:35.940 --> 00:55:37.320 month or two out of the year. You 1440 00:55:37.320 --> 00:55:39.140 went home and provided for your family actually 1441 00:55:39.140 --> 00:55:40.680 did shit with your life. You weren't in 1442 00:55:40.680 --> 00:55:42.160 Congress for 11 months out of the year. 1443 00:55:42.160 --> 00:55:43.320 You were at home 11 months of the 1444 00:55:43.320 --> 00:55:45.560 year. So that's the kind of the premise 1445 00:55:45.560 --> 00:55:47.820 into what Hattel's saying too. That's why it's 1446 00:55:47.820 --> 00:55:49.880 the timing part of it, where it's like, 1447 00:55:49.880 --> 00:55:51.540 it just puts your spiky sense up a 1448 00:55:51.540 --> 00:55:54.020 little bit. But again, it's this measured approach 1449 00:55:54.020 --> 00:55:56.380 where, of course, things change, facts change. So 1450 00:55:56.380 --> 00:55:57.800 then yes, do we need a new amendment 1451 00:55:57.800 --> 00:56:00.500 literally in America or is it with Bitcoin? 1452 00:56:00.500 --> 00:56:02.240 something needs to change and we come together 1453 00:56:02.240 --> 00:56:04.200 and if there's broadband support, it has to 1454 00:56:04.200 --> 00:56:06.640 meet these certain thresholds, in my opinion. And 1455 00:56:06.640 --> 00:56:08.220 that's where, again, we have to have those 1456 00:56:08.220 --> 00:56:09.540 debates. And we did with the fourth, you 1457 00:56:09.540 --> 00:56:10.920 just said, we did for a year or 1458 00:56:10.920 --> 00:56:12.440 two, for a couple years, and it didn't 1459 00:56:12.440 --> 00:56:14.180 meet it. And then now this is another 1460 00:56:14.180 --> 00:56:15.700 thing that will come up. So anyway, I 1461 00:56:15.700 --> 00:56:17.180 just, I want to liken it to that 1462 00:56:17.180 --> 00:56:19.520 because I think it's important people politically think, 1463 00:56:19.520 --> 00:56:20.980 oh, we need to change it fast. No, 1464 00:56:20.980 --> 00:56:22.600 you don't want emotions up because an intelligence 1465 00:56:22.600 --> 00:56:24.880 goes down. These things should take a while. 1466 00:56:24.880 --> 00:56:26.180 You show a lot of people seeing it 1467 00:56:26.180 --> 00:56:27.500 over time and then it gets to a 1468 00:56:27.500 --> 00:56:29.740 fever pitch, then the support's there to actually 1469 00:56:29.740 --> 00:56:32.240 change something if we need to. Just to 1470 00:56:32.240 --> 00:56:33.920 tag that real quick, poor Walker goes like 1471 00:56:33.920 --> 00:56:35.340 that we do have to realize though that 1472 00:56:35.340 --> 00:56:37.660 we are on the front lines of every 1473 00:56:37.660 --> 00:56:40.040 attack vector so we're going to get hit 1474 00:56:40.040 --> 00:56:41.160 first and we're going to get hit with 1475 00:56:41.160 --> 00:56:43.460 the most powerful shit meaning we're going to 1476 00:56:43.460 --> 00:56:45.800 get hit first by quantum compute if it 1477 00:56:45.800 --> 00:56:48.140 happens and we're going to get hit first 1478 00:56:48.140 --> 00:56:50.420 by flagship a i's so we do have 1479 00:56:50.420 --> 00:56:53.200 to be um you know just very nimble 1480 00:56:53.200 -->

00:56:55.540 i think nimble over the next few years 1481 00:56:55.540 --> 00:56:59.560 probably yeah okay a couple of uh points 1482 00:56:59.560 --> 00:57:00.680 in this because i hear what you guys 1483 00:57:00.680 --> 00:57:01.800 are saying here. I think a couple things 1484 00:57:01.800 --> 00:57:04.160 that are important to keep in mind here. 1485 00:57:04.160 --> 00:57:07.960 One, like, I think this whole, uh, the 1486 00:57:07.960 --> 00:57:10.060 whole Knott's core debate really sort of like 1487 00:57:10.060 --> 00:57:12.540 broke some people's brains in terms of what 1488 00:57:12.540 --> 00:57:14.200 Core was doing. It's like, why is Core 1489 00:57:14.200 --> 00:57:16.980 trying to change things? First of all, differentiate 1490 00:57:16.980 --> 00:57:21.240 between changing relay policy and changing consensus, which 1491 00:57:21.240 --> 00:57:22.740 Core did not try to do, but then 1492 00:57:22.740 --> 00:57:24.360 the Knott's people did try to do. And 1493 00:57:24.360 --> 00:57:26.060 that's why they forked off because they changed 1494 00:57:26.060 --> 00:57:28.860 consensus. That's why they're now running on SIA 1495 00:57:28.860 --> 00:57:33.380 coin miners. And I don't are doing, God 1496 00:57:33.380 --> 00:57:36.120 only knows what out there, eating cats or 1497 00:57:36.120 --> 00:57:38.600 something. I don't know. It doesn't matter. They 1498 00:57:38.600 --> 00:57:42.480 forked themselves into irrelevance as people are wanted 1499 00:57:42.480 --> 00:57:44.520 to do. So that is an important thing 1500 00:57:44.520 --> 00:57:48.880 to point out. I am all for not 1501 00:57:48.880 --> 00:57:52.720 making changes to Bitcoin's consensus in any sort 1502 00:57:52.720 --> 00:57:54.340 of a hurry. I think what we're talking 1503 00:57:54.340 --> 00:57:57.380 about here is patching security vulnerabilities that do 1504 00:57:57.380 --> 00:57:59.280 not result in any sort of soft or 1505 00:57:59.280 --> 00:58:02.780 hard fork because these are not consensus issues. 1506 00:58:02.780 --> 00:58:04.680 This is like general maintenance. And I think 1507 00:58:04.680 --> 00:58:05.960 a lot of people, it's easy to get 1508 00:58:05.960 --> 00:58:08.260 that confused. It's like, whoa, whoa, we don't 1509 00:58:08.260 --> 00:58:10.020 need core devs to do this. This isn't 1510 00:58:10.020 --> 00:58:11.160 coming at you, Brandon. This is just like 1511 00:58:11.160 --> 00:58:13.320 a general thing because this was my mentality 1512 00:58:13.320 --> 00:58:15.360 for a while as well. Yeah. Yeah. So 1513 00:58:15.360 --> 00:58:19.540 what they're talking about is elevating, elevating security 1514 00:58:19.540 --> 00:58:23.140 risks discovered by AI to the forefront of 1515 00:58:23.140 --> 00:58:25.980 their, hey, patch this list. And like from 1516 00:58:25.980 --> 00:58:30.820 personal experience, fiat world stuff, like, I use. 1517 00:58:30.820 --> 00:58:33.540 I use, AI to reverse engineer some shit 1518 00:58:33.540 --> 00:58:36.640 and found some critical security vulnerabilities and bump 1519 00:58:36.640 --> 00:58:37.980 that right up to the top of the 1520 00:58:37.980 --> 00:58:39.400 list of shit the dev team needed to 1521 00:58:39.400 --> 00:58:42.060 fix right now, even though they had a 1522 00:58:42.060 --> 00:58:43.800 whole list of other things that were. Speeding 1523 00:58:43.800 --> 00:58:46.180 things up the list of things to do 1524 00:58:46.180 --> 00:58:49.500 and we, that makes it. Because if you 1525 00:58:49.500 --> 00:58:51.240 can find it with, if you can find 1526 00:58:51.240 --> 00:58:54.260 the issue, the security vulnerability with AI, so 1527 00:58:54.260 --> 00:58:58.080 can everyone else. That's the thing. Some obscure 1528 00:58:58.080 --> 00:58:59.460 thing that's like, hey, this might be a 1529 00:58:59.460 --> 00:59:01.860 security issue in like five years. No, it 1530 00:59:01.860 --> 00:59:05.900 doesn't matter. Somebody can use this fucking bonehead 1531 00:59:05.900 --> 00:59:08.520 like Walker, can use this prompt and find 1532 00:59:08.520 --> 00:59:11.200 a vulnerability in core. Yeah, that should be 1533 00:59:11.200 --> 00:59:13.220 right at the top of the list. Like, 1534 00:59:13.220 --> 00:59:14.680 that should absolutely be at the top of 1535 00:59:14.680 --> 00:59:17.380 the list. Because again, if you can find 1536 00:59:17.380 --> 00:59:20.000 it with AI, so can someone else. And 1537 00:59:20.000 --> 00:59:20.740 if you can, I mean, if you can 1538 00:59:20.740 --> 00:59:22.680 find it with like a frontier model, like, 1539 00:59:22.680 --> 00:59:24.400 you know, you get downgraded to like Opus 1540 00:59:24.400 --> 00:59:26.860 4 .8 from Fable or Opus 5 .5 1541 00:59:26.860 --> 00:59:30.260 when you're trying to do some redheading stuff. 1542 00:59:30.260 --> 00:59:33.140 Even open, yeah, no, I got you, fam. 1543 00:59:33.140 --> 00:59:35.100 Like, I'm fucking, I'll hack that shit to 1544 00:59:35.100 --> 00:59:36.740 bits. Like, I got you. I'm a little 1545 00:59:36.740 --> 00:59:38.420 dumber than my big brother, but like, I'm 1546 00:59:38.420 --> 00:59:39.600 still smarter than you, but like, I'm still 1547 00:59:39.600 --> 00:59:42.060 smarter than you, meatbag. So, like, that, I 1548 00:59:42.060 --> 00:59:43.480 think this is a good thing. I think 1549 00:59:43.480 --> 00:59:45.540 this is a prudent thing to do. Something 1550 00:59:45.540 --> 00:59:47.260 that Hoddle was pointing out was that the 1551 00:59:47.260 --> 00:59:50.180 landscape is changing so fast. We have to 1552 00:59:50.180 --> 00:59:51.900 adapt with it. And again, I would say 1553 00:59:51.900 --> 00:59:54.540 the heuristic is, if you can find it 1554 00:59:54.540 --> 00:59:57.880 with AI, so can someone else. So necessarily 1555 00:59:57.880 --> 01:00:02.520 any AI does, discovered security vulnerability should be 1556 01:00:02.520 --> 01:00:04.140 put at the top of the list. I 1557 01:00:04.140 --> 01:00:06.740 think that's just

prudent. Maybe I'm missing something, 1558 01:00:06.740 --> 01:00:09.480 but that's just my opinion. I think that's 1559 01:00:09.480 --> 01:00:13.000 fair. Like, you know, this is kind of 1560 01:00:13.000 --> 01:00:16.000 like the Promethean fire moment for us. Like, 1561 01:00:16.000 --> 01:00:18.260 these tools are there, okay? Just the same 1562 01:00:18.260 --> 01:00:20.560 way that all these Luddites don't like AI, 1563 01:00:20.560 --> 01:00:22.200 they think it's not good for business. It's 1564 01:00:22.200 --> 01:00:23.520 not good for art. It's not good for 1565 01:00:23.520 --> 01:00:25.360 expression. It's not good for whatever. Like, the 1566 01:00:25.360 --> 01:00:26.920 fact that matter is it's there. So it's 1567 01:00:26.920 --> 01:00:29.820 your choice. Either you use the tools, for 1568 01:00:29.820 --> 01:00:32.800 purposes that you deem to be functional, you 1569 01:00:32.800 --> 01:00:36.980 know, important, forward -looking, whatever, or you have 1570 01:00:36.980 --> 01:00:38.680 the tools used on you. But the tool 1571 01:00:38.680 --> 01:00:40.680 is out. It's all there is to it, 1572 01:00:40.680 --> 01:00:41.820 right? One of you guys said it earlier, 1573 01:00:41.820 --> 01:00:43.420 the cat's out of the bag. And if 1574 01:00:43.420 --> 01:00:45.040 you don't - Monkeys out of the bottle. 1575 01:00:45.040 --> 01:00:45.940 The monkeys out of the ball. If you 1576 01:00:45.940 --> 01:00:49.620 don't focus your energy on this stuff, like 1577 01:00:49.620 --> 01:00:51.240 Hoddle said, you're on the frontier. Someone else 1578 01:00:51.240 --> 01:00:52.720 is going to, and we've already seen it. 1579 01:00:52.720 --> 01:00:54.320 It's not a mystery. This is happening. So 1580 01:00:54.320 --> 01:00:56.660 not only are they using AI on us, 1581 01:00:56.660 --> 01:00:59.720 but they're also hijacking, like, small Chinese resellers. 1582 01:00:59.720 --> 01:01:01.340 Okay. The, the, the, the, the, the, the, 1583 01:01:01.340 --> 01:01:03.380 fucking race is on here. You can pretend 1584 01:01:03.380 --> 01:01:06.040 it's not. You can pretend that we're safe 1585 01:01:06.040 --> 01:01:08.460 because shot 56 is safe. That's not a 1586 01:01:08.460 --> 01:01:11.580 question for now. But this other stuff very 1587 01:01:11.580 --> 01:01:13.540 much in question. And like I mentioned, if 1588 01:01:13.540 --> 01:01:15.900 you can daisy chain together vulnerabilities to create 1589 01:01:15.900 --> 01:01:17.980 an exploit, you're not going to know about 1590 01:01:17.980 --> 01:01:20.660 it until it's too late. And that's the 1591 01:01:20.660 --> 01:01:22.560 other problem. And the, in the toughest part 1592 01:01:22.560 --> 01:01:24.500 is, is what you guys are all talking 1593 01:01:24.500 --> 01:01:26.500 about. The attacker only has to be right 1594 01:01:26.500 --> 01:01:29.000 once, right? You have to defend. You're defending 1595 01:01:29.000 --> 01:01:31.080 unlimited positions. And they only have to be 1596 01:01:31.080 --> 01:01:33.540 right one time. And that's what we're dealing 1597 01:01:33.540 --> 01:01:35.380 with right now and why it's so difficult. 1598 01:01:35.380 --> 01:01:38.060 Yeah, I think it's worth mentioning that our 1599 01:01:38.060 --> 01:01:40.180 friend Larry, who's become a friend of the 1600 01:01:40.180 --> 01:01:42.120 show, obviously, over the last little while, BlackRock, 1601 01:01:42.120 --> 01:01:47.380 reducing AI exposure. I don't know. We didn't 1602 01:01:47.380 --> 01:01:49.800 really touch on like the financials and the, 1603 01:01:49.800 --> 01:01:52.120 you know, machinations of whether or not Anthropic 1604 01:01:52.120 --> 01:01:54.820 is a profitable company. And we've obviously discussed, 1605 01:01:54.820 --> 01:01:57.140 you know, this idea that the commoditization of 1606 01:01:57.140 --> 01:01:58.740 tokens will continue and these things will trend 1607 01:01:58.740 --> 01:02:01.780 to zero over time, blah, blah, blah, blah. 1608 01:02:01.780 --> 01:02:06.120 I don't know whether or not there's such 1609 01:02:06.120 --> 01:02:08.020 a thing as reducing AI exposure at this 1610 01:02:08.020 --> 01:02:09.920 point. Because when I look at the earlier 1611 01:02:09.920 --> 01:02:14.160 story about Microsoft, for example, no matter what 1612 01:02:14.160 --> 01:02:17.260 company you're invested in, you are now invested 1613 01:02:17.260 --> 01:02:19.360 in an AI company. This is not like 1614 01:02:19.360 --> 01:02:22.700 the blockchain blow up from, you know, 2017, 1615 01:02:22.700 --> 01:02:24.840 right, where Kodak became a blockchain company and 1616 01:02:24.840 --> 01:02:26.760 there was a blockchain iced tea company and 1617 01:02:26.760 --> 01:02:28.020 a blockchain company and a blockchain fucking shoe 1618 01:02:28.020 --> 01:02:32.500 company. Like, it's not that. that. Now, like, 1619 01:02:32.500 --> 01:02:33.920 the idea that you can quote unquote reduce 1620 01:02:33.920 --> 01:02:36.220 AI exposure, I just don't think is true. 1621 01:02:36.220 --> 01:02:38.380 Because I'm looking across the spectrum of companies 1622 01:02:38.380 --> 01:02:40.660 here, and whether it's Nike and Lulu, who 1623 01:02:40.660 --> 01:02:42.420 are clearly using AI for some of their 1624 01:02:42.420 --> 01:02:45.240 advertising and probably for their internals, or it's 1625 01:02:45.240 --> 01:02:47.720 company like Microsoft or Google, that is basically 1626 01:02:47.720 --> 01:02:49.780 not only in on AI CAPX, but also 1627 01:02:49.780 --> 01:02:52.860 AI as a productivity tool. So these guys 1628 01:02:52.860 --> 01:02:55.200 are not only buying data centers, they're firing, 1629 01:02:55.200 --> 01:02:56.420 like I said earlier, a third of their 1630 01:02:56.420 --> 01:02:58.900 overall headcount replacing with AI. I don't think 1631 01:02:58.900 --> 01:03:01.140 you can actually get away from AI. And 1632 01:03:01.140 --> 01:03:03.840 part of me is in this camp now 1633 01:03:03.840 --> 01:03:08.060

where I think that AI and Bitcoin are 1634 01:03:08.060 --> 01:03:11.880 almost like linked as far as their future 1635 01:03:11.880 --> 01:03:14.480 success. Because one is going to protect the 1636 01:03:14.480 --> 01:03:16.140 other and one is going to be spent 1637 01:03:16.140 --> 01:03:19.080 by the other as well. So I just 1638 01:03:19.080 --> 01:03:21.000 want to leave that with you guys. We're 1639 01:03:21.000 --> 01:03:22.180 going to go to break. And when we 1640 01:03:22.180 --> 01:03:24.160 come back, we got a few more stories 1641 01:03:24.160 --> 01:03:26.720 to cover some fun stuff as always. Don't 1642 01:03:26.720 --> 01:03:28.880 go anywhere, throw some chairs, leave some likes. 1643 01:03:28.880 --> 01:03:30.460 And we'll see you in. in a minute 1644 01:03:30.460 --> 01:03:32.780 or two. You already know that you can't 1645 01:03:32.780 --> 01:03:34.080 leave your seed phrase on paper. It needs 1646 01:03:34.080 --> 01:03:35.380 to be on metal. What you might not 1647 01:03:35.380 --> 01:03:36.620 know is that more Bitcoin has actually been 1648 01:03:36.620 --> 01:03:38.600 lost than been stolen. More than 10 times 1649 01:03:38.600 --> 01:03:40.380 the amount ever hacked, gone because someone lost 1650 01:03:40.380 --> 01:03:42.380 their keys. Your biggest risk isn't some shadowy 1651 01:03:42.380 --> 01:03:44.460 supercoder, it's time in the elements. That's why 1652 01:03:44.460 --> 01:03:47.460 Stampseed uses titanium. Titanium never rusts. Doesn't matter 1653 01:03:47.460 --> 01:03:48.500 if it's a raging house fire at the 1654 01:03:48.500 --> 01:03:49.620 bottom of the ocean or sitting at a 1655 01:03:49.620 --> 01:03:51.660 desk door for 50 years, titanium doesn't care. 1656 01:03:51.660 --> 01:03:53.080 One salt piece, nothing to come apart that 1657 01:03:53.080 --> 01:03:54.800 you hammer in. By the stamp seed kit 1658 01:03:54.800 --> 01:03:55.980 and as your set evolves, you just grab 1659 01:03:55.980 --> 01:03:57.660 more plates. Stamp it once and never worry 1660 01:03:57.660 --> 01:03:59.420 about your backup again. And for the advanced 1661 01:03:59.420 --> 01:04:01.620 users, There's the clear code set. Every letter, 1662 01:04:01.620 --> 01:04:03.100 number, and symbol of your full keyboard, no 1663 01:04:03.100 --> 01:04:05.460 two characters alike, your passphrase, your descriptor, backed 1664 01:04:05.460 --> 01:04:07.320 up on titanium. This is what I personally 1665 01:04:07.320 --> 01:04:08.980 use and have for years, so stop leaving 1666 01:04:08.980 --> 01:04:11.180 yourself exposed. They're giving you 15 % off 1667 01:04:11.180 --> 01:04:12.880 with promo code Bitcast so that you finally 1668 01:04:12.880 --> 01:04:14.540 get this done today. Click the link in 1669 01:04:14.540 --> 01:04:15.980 the description down below or scan the QR 1670 01:04:15.980 --> 01:04:18.100 code on the screen. When it comes to 1671 01:04:18.100 --> 01:04:20.260 peer -to -peer trading and lending, instant self 1672 01:04:20.260 --> 01:04:23.360 -c custody and no KYC, hoddle -hottle is 1673 01:04:23.360 --> 01:04:25.120 the place to be. You can sign up 1674 01:04:25.120 --> 01:04:26.840 with just an email address, and once you're 1675 01:04:26.840 --> 01:04:29.380 there, you can start browsing offers immediately, whether 1676 01:04:29.380 --> 01:04:31.020 you're looking. to buy and sell or whether 1677 01:04:31.020 --> 01:04:33.300 you're looking to lend or borrow. You can 1678 01:04:33.300 --> 01:04:35.120 check them out today at the links down 1679 01:04:35.120 --> 01:04:37.840 below. 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And for the Americans, their own Bitcoin 1692 01:05:00.340 --> 01:05:02.820 IRA and the wait list is open. Verifiable 1693 01:05:02.820 --> 01:05:05.000 and on chain. So, sign up today, visit 1694 01:05:05.000 --> 01:05:07.400 Bitcoinwell .com slash BTC sessions or scan the 1695 01:05:07.400 --> 01:05:10.680 QR code on the screen. Tradition like no 1696 01:05:10.680 --> 01:05:12.860 other here on the program besides me fucking 1697 01:05:12.860 --> 01:05:16.520 up the share. Michael Sailor Hour. Can you 1698 01:05:16.520 --> 01:05:17.600 guys see that? You can't see it. It's 1699 01:05:17.600 --> 01:05:19.260 not sharing. Weird. Anyway, I can't see this 1700 01:05:19.260 --> 01:05:21.700 thing. I'll see you. Nathan, we need you. 1701 01:05:21.700 --> 01:05:24.760 I know. It's actually unbelievable how, like, finicky 1702 01:05:24.760 --> 01:05:26.160 the share thing is in the year of 1703 01:05:26.160 --> 01:05:28.280 our Lord 2026. Although, to be honest with 1704 01:05:28.280 --> 01:05:29.720 you, Nathan never has a problem with it. 1705 01:05:29.720 --> 01:05:31.960 So maybe it's just a user error here. 1706 01:05:31.960 --> 01:05:35.040 But Mike back in the news for buying 1707 01:05:35.040 --> 01:05:38.440 some Bitcoin or buying some, I should say, 1708 01:05:38.440 --> 01:05:41.780 STRC back. He did not buy Bitcoin this 1709 01:05:41.780 --> 01:05:44.920 week. Huddl, I don't think we've talked to 1710 01:05:44.920 --> 01:05:49.240 you about

Sailor, the STRC thing and the 1711 01:05:49.240 --> 01:05:52.920 Treasury Company strategy broadly in the times you've 1712 01:05:52.920 --> 01:05:55.600 been on the show. But, you know, Walker 1713 01:05:55.600 --> 01:05:59.840 and I obviously are invested in this. If 1714 01:05:59.840 --> 01:06:01.280 I may, Joey, if I may, Joey. Go 1715 01:06:01.280 --> 01:06:03.300 ahead, yeah. For your reference, a little context 1716 01:06:03.300 --> 01:06:06.800 for this. So, Joey spent all summer telling 1717 01:06:06.800 --> 01:06:09.940 everyone that STRC was basically a Ponzi scheme 1718 01:06:09.940 --> 01:06:12.040 and was going to zero. The micro strategy 1719 01:06:12.040 --> 01:06:14.660 was fucked, all these different things. It turns 1720 01:06:14.660 --> 01:06:17.520 out, Hoddle, that at the same time that 1721 01:06:17.520 --> 01:06:20.220 Joey was misleading our viewers, and I was 1722 01:06:20.220 --> 01:06:22.360 trying to tell the truth about my, you 1723 01:06:22.360 --> 01:06:23.600 know, the fact that I, yes, I do 1724 01:06:23.600 --> 01:06:25.320 have a position in MSTR. I wouldn't recommend 1725 01:06:25.320 --> 01:06:27.080 buying it or recommend buying Bitcoin, but, like, 1726 01:06:27.080 --> 01:06:29.220 I do hold it myself. Have for a 1727 01:06:29.220 --> 01:06:33.280 long time. that Joey was lying, it turns 1728 01:06:33.280 --> 01:06:34.960 out. It's a Canadian thing, I guess. It's 1729 01:06:34.960 --> 01:06:38.780 a cultural thing. And was DCAing every week 1730 01:06:38.780 --> 01:06:41.660 into MSTR as he was fading it on 1731 01:06:41.660 --> 01:06:42.800 stream. So I just wanted to give you 1732 01:06:42.800 --> 01:06:44.100 that context because I didn't know if you 1733 01:06:44.100 --> 01:06:45.580 had it. And I feel that it is 1734 01:06:45.580 --> 01:06:47.260 important for you to know just when Joey's 1735 01:06:47.260 --> 01:06:50.140 asking these questions. So, Joey, please continue. Tough 1736 01:06:50.140 --> 01:06:52.540 life. Take it away. Take it away, so, 1737 01:06:52.540 --> 01:06:58.160 yeah, I have owned MSTR since $24 a 1738 01:06:58.160 --> 01:07:00.940 share, I think. So I've been a long 1739 01:07:00.940 --> 01:07:05.260 -term MSTR bull. And my heuristic for buying 1740 01:07:05.260 --> 01:07:08.580 it was extremely simple, which was this company 1741 01:07:08.580 --> 01:07:10.780 is going to have the most Bitcoin. That 1742 01:07:10.780 --> 01:07:14.320 means they win. So my thesis has not 1743 01:07:14.320 --> 01:07:17.100 changed. Every time Michael Saylor puts up a 1744 01:07:17.100 --> 01:07:20.920 rocket chip image that has too many afterburners 1745 01:07:20.920 --> 01:07:24.700 that all correspond to different shit, I go. 1746 01:07:24.700 --> 01:07:27.360 Oh, no. Oh, no, we lost him right 1747 01:07:27.360 --> 01:07:28.920 in the middle of it. What are they 1748 01:07:28.920 --> 01:07:30.540 going to say? Come back. Wait, you got 1749 01:07:30.540 --> 01:07:32.600 to say it. We're going to

reset it. 1750 01:07:32.600 --> 01:07:35.560 We like, we lost you at the afterburners. 1751 01:07:35.560 --> 01:07:37.880 And then it was a big. Every time 1752 01:07:37.880 --> 01:07:39.860 there's a, every time there's a rocket chip 1753 01:07:39.860 --> 01:07:41.780 image with too many afterburners that all say 1754 01:07:41.780 --> 01:07:43.820 too many different things I don't understand. I 1755 01:07:43.820 --> 01:07:46.000 start to get a little concern, you know. 1756 01:07:46.000 --> 01:07:48.320 But the thesis remains simple, which is this 1757 01:07:48.320 --> 01:07:50.460 company going to have a lot of Bitcoin, 1758 01:07:50.460 --> 01:07:51.920 that means they're going to do really good 1759 01:07:51.920 --> 01:07:54.940 in life, you know? So that's all I 1760 01:07:54.940 --> 01:07:58.160 got on MSCR. Very simple, uh, strategy there. 1761 01:07:58.160 --> 01:08:00.840 This is my one. You care about Bitcoin 1762 01:08:00.840 --> 01:08:03.120 per share. Does that like, does anyone outside 1763 01:08:03.120 --> 01:08:07.380 of these like niche, like, MSTR Discord chats 1764 01:08:07.380 --> 01:08:09.420 really give a shit about Bitcoin per share? 1765 01:08:09.420 --> 01:08:11.240 Am I dreaming? This is something. Yeah, exactly. 1766 01:08:11.240 --> 01:08:13.500 No one fucking cares about this. I guarantee 1767 01:08:13.500 --> 01:08:16.400 I have more. Nobody cares. I don't give 1768 01:08:16.400 --> 01:08:19.400 a fuck. I don't care at all. I 1769 01:08:19.400 --> 01:08:20.120 don't even know what it is. We get 1770 01:08:20.120 --> 01:08:23.740 it. We're poor. Jesus, man. You kick a 1771 01:08:23.740 --> 01:08:26.680 guy watch down. I don't even know. I 1772 01:08:26.680 --> 01:08:27.940 don't even know what the current Bitcoin for 1773 01:08:27.940 --> 01:08:30.060 share is. What is it? That's just the 1774 01:08:30.060 --> 01:08:31.540 number I made up. I don't even know. 1775 01:08:31.540 --> 01:08:34.440 I have no idea. Go ahead. Go ahead, 1776 01:08:34.440 --> 01:08:37.100 Walker.! Tell me something good about this. I 1777 01:08:37.100 --> 01:08:40.720 mean, I don't know. My thesis is similar 1778 01:08:40.720 --> 01:08:44.080 to Hoddles because I'm not a trader. If 1779 01:08:44.080 --> 01:08:45.600 I would have listened to my wife when 1780 01:08:45.600 --> 01:08:47.660 she told me to sell MSTR at the 1781 01:08:47.660 --> 01:08:49.320 tops that we could buy it when it 1782 01:08:49.320 --> 01:08:51.480 went lower. And I was like, oh, yeah, 1783 01:08:51.480 --> 01:08:52.700 honey, I'll just sell at the top and 1784 01:08:52.700 --> 01:08:54.000 buy the bond. She told me to sell 1785 01:08:54.000 --> 01:08:55.260 right at, I mean, like at a pico 1786 01:08:55.260 --> 01:08:57.640 top. She really called it. She should be 1787 01:08:57.640 --> 01:08:59.280 my quant. I should have listened to you, 1788 01:08:59.280 --> 01:09:01.500 honey. You'll never watch this show, so it 1789 01:09:01.500 --> 01:09:03.980 doesn't matter. But

the point is, like, my 1790 01:09:03.980 --> 01:09:05.820 thesis also hasn't changed. Again, let me preface 1791 01:09:05.820 --> 01:09:07.740 this by saying, I don't recommend that anyone 1792 01:09:07.740 --> 01:09:09.940 buy any security. I recommend that you buy 1793 01:09:09.940 --> 01:09:13.880 spot Bitcoin and get your casino -grade dice 1794 01:09:13.880 --> 01:09:18.300 and roll them 2 ,000 times. Flat surface. 1795 01:09:18.300 --> 01:09:21.640 Yeah, on a perfectly flat, you know, machine 1796 01:09:21.640 --> 01:09:23.360 -plained surface and generate entropy via the solar 1797 01:09:23.360 --> 01:09:24.360 -flarens surface and generate additional entropy via the 1798 01:09:24.360 --> 01:09:27.100 solar flares of the sun and, you know, 1799 01:09:27.100 --> 01:09:30.700 laboratory, all that stuff. But, like, I hold 1800 01:09:30.700 --> 01:09:33.640 it myself. I've held it for a while 1801 01:09:33.640 --> 01:09:36.000 also. Like, I also hold some in an 1802 01:09:36.000 --> 01:09:38.720 account that, like, is not able to hold 1803 01:09:38.720 --> 01:09:42.280 spot Bitcoin, right? Like, old leftover 401K from 1804 01:09:42.280 --> 01:09:46.000 one of my first Fiat jobs that I 1805 01:09:46.000 --> 01:09:48.640 changed to self -directed, because apparently, like, the 1806 01:09:48.640 --> 01:09:50.940 directed ones are just like, here, here's, here's, 1807 01:09:50.940 --> 01:09:52.280 we'll keep you up with inflation. There you 1808 01:09:52.280 --> 01:09:55.560 go. Do you want to be aggressive? We 1809 01:09:55.560 --> 01:09:59.380 got a slider. Yeah. You're aggressive, kind of 1810 01:09:59.380 --> 01:10:02.840 aggressive? Big balls guy. You want to be 1811 01:10:02.840 --> 01:10:03.280 a big balls guy? You want to be 1812 01:10:03.280 --> 01:10:05.820 a big balls guy? It's so funny. I 1813 01:10:05.820 --> 01:10:07.680 love the slider. That's the slider. I love 1814 01:10:07.680 --> 01:10:09.320 the slider. The slider's great. I don't know 1815 01:10:09.320 --> 01:10:10.560 if you guys ever actually look at what 1816 01:10:10.560 --> 01:10:12.640 the slider fucking gives you. In Canada, the 1817 01:10:12.640 --> 01:10:15.560 slider is like reducing the gold exposure from 1818 01:10:15.560 --> 01:10:19.360 40 %, 20%. Yeah, it's like, here's a 1819 01:10:19.360 --> 01:10:24.200 little bit more of Vanguard's Target 55. Like, 1820 01:10:24.200 --> 01:10:26.540 oh, you like that, don't you? You're out 1821 01:10:26.540 --> 01:10:28.780 there on the edge, man. You're aggressive, big 1822 01:10:28.780 --> 01:10:32.040 boy. Nice work. But look, on the MSTR 1823 01:10:32.040 --> 01:10:34.240 thing, I think that all of the MSTR 1824 01:10:34.240 --> 01:10:36.640 doomers, Joey included, although he's not a real 1825 01:10:36.640 --> 01:10:38.140 dumer, because he was just, you know, he 1826 01:10:38.140 --> 01:10:39.220 was lying to all of you in the 1827 01:10:39.220 --> 01:10:41.280 chat. Is K -fabe? Everyone's talking about K 1828 01:10:41.280 --> 01:10:43.500 -Fame. Yeah, Joey, just because we learned about 1829 01:10:43.500 --> 01:10:45.200 the word K -Fabe last week, doesn't mean 1830 01:10:45.200 --> 01:10:46.980 you get to use to excuse your actions, 1831 01:10:46.980 --> 01:10:48.480 okay? People don't forget. God, what does K 1832 01:10:48.480 --> 01:10:49.300 -Fa -M -Fame mean? The point here is 1833 01:10:49.300 --> 01:10:52.060 that, like, MSDR is going to be fine. 1834 01:10:52.060 --> 01:10:52.860 S -T -R -C is going to be 1835 01:10:52.860 --> 01:10:55.180 fine. If it's not, I'll say I was, 1836 01:10:55.180 --> 01:10:57.160 okay, I was wrong. they weren't fine. In 1837 01:10:57.160 --> 01:11:00.840 this situation that they're not fine, Bitcoin's probably 1838 01:11:00.840 --> 01:11:04.920 not doing super well. So like, if you 1839 01:11:04.920 --> 01:11:06.800 believe that Bitcoin's going to keep doing super 1840 01:11:06.800 --> 01:11:08.680 well, you kind of necessarily need to believe 1841 01:11:08.680 --> 01:11:11.580 strategy will. It's not a super complicated thing. 1842 01:11:11.580 --> 01:11:13.120 You don't have to like what they're doing. 1843 01:11:13.120 --> 01:11:15.520 You don't have to buy the stock. But 1844 01:11:15.520 --> 01:11:17.900 to just like the constant fading that I 1845 01:11:17.900 --> 01:11:20.620 see of it, I just think is like, 1846 01:11:20.620 --> 01:11:22.160 it doesn't make any sense to me. Like 1847 01:11:22.160 --> 01:11:23.320 you're clearly not thinking - It's been six 1848 01:11:23.320 --> 01:11:26.260 years now. Yeah. Michael Siler is. is a 1849 01:11:26.260 --> 01:11:28.420 fact of Bitcoin at this point. You know, 1850 01:11:28.420 --> 01:11:30.600 he's going to be one of the largest 1851 01:11:30.600 --> 01:11:35.340 hoddlers of Bitcoin from here till whenever, and 1852 01:11:35.340 --> 01:11:38.040 it just is what it is, you know. 1853 01:11:38.040 --> 01:11:42.040 Brandon, you are not an MSCR shareholder. Are 1854 01:11:42.040 --> 01:11:43.880 we retarded? What's going on on on this 1855 01:11:43.880 --> 01:11:46.140 side of the chat? No. No, I think 1856 01:11:46.140 --> 01:11:47.820 that's the whole point. The whole point is 1857 01:11:47.820 --> 01:11:51.960 that if you don't believe in strategy, then 1858 01:11:51.960 --> 01:11:53.640 you don't really believe in Bitcoin, because they're 1859 01:11:53.640 --> 01:11:56.360 inextricably linked. Like, there's no way. What is 1860 01:11:56.360 --> 01:12:00.440 delinking them at this point? You tell me, 1861 01:12:00.440 --> 01:12:02.720 I guess. So to me, it's, if you 1862 01:12:02.720 --> 01:12:05.000 believe in Bitcoin, well, then guess what? Strategy 1863 01:12:05.000 --> 01:12:07.340 is going up. I mean, like, stretches going 1864 01:12:07.340 --> 01:12:09.480 to be fine. Strategies going up, whatever. You 1865 01:12:09.480 --> 01:12:12.060 know, just generally speaking. And so that's where 1866 01:12:12.060 --> 01:12:14.680 I think the dichotomy, like Walker

just said, 1867 01:12:14.680 --> 01:12:17.680 the fading strategy, I get in the sense 1868 01:12:17.680 --> 01:12:19.520 of like traditional, you know, you got to 1869 01:12:19.520 --> 01:12:21.700 believe in the CEO and the plan and 1870 01:12:21.700 --> 01:12:23.300 this and that. And like, yeah, I mean, 1871 01:12:23.300 --> 01:12:25.160 I guess there is theoretically some of that. 1872 01:12:25.160 --> 01:12:26.820 We saw a little bit with the, they're 1873 01:12:26.820 --> 01:12:28.460 selling a little bit. They're trying the trial 1874 01:12:28.460 --> 01:12:30.260 balloon. We're going to sell. And also some 1875 01:12:30.260 --> 01:12:31.380 of the Fiat games that are being played. 1876 01:12:31.380 --> 01:12:33.540 But generally speaking, yeah, they've got, what, 840 1877 01:12:33.540 --> 01:12:35.460 ,000 Bitcoin? I mean, like, they're not selling 1878 01:12:35.460 --> 01:12:37.840 all of it, guys. Like this, they're, like, 1879 01:12:37.840 --> 01:12:39.660 like Hattel said, they're a fact. Like, it's 1880 01:12:39.660 --> 01:12:41.480 a fact. Deal with it. It's okay. And 1881 01:12:41.480 --> 01:12:42.500 like, going back to the beginning of the 1882 01:12:42.500 --> 01:12:44.560 show, it's going to be different strokes for 1883 01:12:44.560 --> 01:12:45.660 different folks. There's going to be people getting 1884 01:12:45.660 --> 01:12:47.520 Bitcoin in a million different ways as life 1885 01:12:47.520 --> 01:12:49.380 goes on. And we just, we have to 1886 01:12:49.380 --> 01:12:51.460 accept that. Let me give you the thesis 1887 01:12:51.460 --> 01:12:57.000 one more time. gonna do good boy. My 1888 01:12:57.000 --> 01:13:00.620 stuff. And you're in your retirement now, okay? 1889 01:13:00.620 --> 01:13:04.100 So easy, so easy. Even though Matthew Crather. 1890 01:13:04.100 --> 01:13:04.700 Okay, can I read something from the chat? 1891 01:13:04.700 --> 01:13:05.500 Can I read something from the chat here 1892 01:13:05.500 --> 01:13:08.340 because like, this is just so fucking, no 1893 01:13:08.340 --> 01:13:11.340 offense. Where is it? What comment is it? 1894 01:13:11.340 --> 01:13:14.300 It says almost something like holding Luna when 1895 01:13:14.300 --> 01:13:18.360 Doquan was accumulating like 80s. Sailor is Doquan 1896 01:13:18.360 --> 01:13:20.540 and Wall Street version, but we'll end differently, 1897 01:13:20.540 --> 01:13:24.560 hopefully for you, Winky Face. I appreciate you 1898 01:13:24.560 --> 01:13:28.020 being here. in this chat. I sincerely do. 1899 01:13:28.020 --> 01:13:29.120 And so when I say what I'm about 1900 01:13:29.120 --> 01:13:30.220 to say, I want you to know that 1901 01:13:30.220 --> 01:13:33.960 I say it with love. That is such 1902 01:13:33.960 --> 01:13:36.780 a fucking low IQ take. It pains me 1903 01:13:36.780 --> 01:13:39.100 to even read it out loud. I appreciate 1904 01:13:39.100 --> 01:13:40.620 you being here. I'm not saying you're low 1905 01:13:40.620 --> 01:13:44.220 IQ, but that's a low IQ take. They're 1906 01:13:44.220 --> 01:13:47.900 not the same thing. Like, not at all. 1907 01:13:47.900 --> 01:13:50.940 If you think they are, like, I don't 1908 01:13:50.940 --> 01:13:53.840 know. Again, don't fucking buy any. Nobody cares. 1909 01:13:53.840 --> 01:13:55.400 Like, nobody cares. Bitch about Sailor. all you 1910 01:13:55.400 --> 01:13:56.960 want. He's going to be sitting there on 1911 01:13:56.960 --> 01:13:59.540 one of his six fucking mega yachts as 1912 01:13:59.540 --> 01:14:03.120 a a bazillionaire just living his life while 1913 01:14:03.120 --> 01:14:07.360 you cry about him. Okay? So like, maybe 1914 01:14:07.360 --> 01:14:10.180 just realize that, as Brandon said very succinctly, 1915 01:14:10.180 --> 01:14:13.080 and Hodel said with a certain type of 1916 01:14:13.080 --> 01:14:17.420 affectation that, you know, I personally enjoy. Yeah. 1917 01:14:17.420 --> 01:14:18.820 They go do good. They go and new 1918 01:14:18.820 --> 01:14:20.740 good. They go and new good. Southern. Did 1919 01:14:20.740 --> 01:14:23.520 you hear something else like? No, no. Southern. 1920 01:14:23.520 --> 01:14:25.140 Yeah, it was Southern. What are you hearing? 1921 01:14:25.140 --> 01:14:26.740 It's like, it sounds like a guy in 1922 01:14:26.740 --> 01:14:29.700 overalls prospecting for gold, honestly. Yeah. That's pretty 1923 01:14:29.700 --> 01:14:32.360 good. You're a fan and water boy. Yeah. 1924 01:14:32.360 --> 01:14:35.680 That's what it is. That's a prospector. Yeah. 1925 01:14:35.680 --> 01:14:37.580 That's what I was thinking. They got a 1926 01:14:37.580 --> 01:14:38.560 lot of, those boys got a lot of 1927 01:14:38.560 --> 01:14:42.460 Bitcoin. Oh, we're going further. Okay. I like 1928 01:14:42.460 --> 01:14:43.960 it. You're going to come back. We're going 1929 01:14:43.960 --> 01:14:46.780 to win the bourbon bowl. I like it. 1930 01:14:46.780 --> 01:14:49.580 Listen, let's, let's, let's keep getting retarded here. 1931 01:14:49.580 --> 01:14:51.560 This guys, this guy's tipped over. Let's keep 1932 01:14:51.560 --> 01:14:54.540 getting retarded here. We got, we got one. 1933 01:14:54.540 --> 01:14:57.020 We never get bolt -hearted on this show. 1934 01:14:57.020 --> 01:14:58.560 Okay, we're always talking about things that are 1935 01:14:58.560 --> 01:15:00.580 affecting the price, whether or not the straight 1936 01:15:00.580 --> 01:15:02.860 -of -hormoos is open, you know, all this 1937 01:15:02.860 --> 01:15:06.100 other shit that's kind of black pill. Charles 1938 01:15:06.100 --> 01:15:08.020 Schwab says we're going to 100K in the 1939 01:15:08.020 --> 01:15:09.680 next six months. I don't fucking know if 1940 01:15:09.680 --> 01:15:11.920 that's true, but I want it to be. 1941 01:15:11.920 --> 01:15:13.660 Okay, Hoddle's got the thumbs down. Go ahead. 1942 01:15:13.660 --> 01:15:15.260 Make sure you do the voice, please. It's 1943 01:15:15.260 --> 01:15:18.340 too low. It's too low. Put Chuckie Schwab 1944

01:15:18.340 --> 01:15:19.360 on the phone with me. Let me send 1945 01:15:19.360 --> 01:15:22.340 him straight. It's too low, dog. It should 1946 01:15:22.340 --> 01:15:24.420 be way higher. You guys, in the States, 1947 01:15:24.420 --> 01:15:25.720 like, you know. You guys have your fucking 1948 01:15:25.720 --> 01:15:29.840 election in two weeks, right? I think. So, 1949 01:15:29.840 --> 01:15:31.360 I mean, it's sort of a win no 1950 01:15:31.360 --> 01:15:32.780 matter what. You get the Dems in there, 1951 01:15:32.780 --> 01:15:35.980 they print. The Republicans are regulatoryly, you know, 1952 01:15:35.980 --> 01:15:37.520 friendly to this thing. I mean, I don't 1953 01:15:37.520 --> 01:15:39.400 know. Is that all you got? Hottle, you 1954 01:15:39.400 --> 01:15:41.720 got more for me? That's it. That's it. 1955 01:15:41.720 --> 01:15:43.780 That's too low. It's going to do good. 1956 01:15:43.780 --> 01:15:46.720 It's going to do. It's going to do 1957 01:15:46.720 --> 01:15:49.320 good. It's too many. Either way. Brandon, what 1958 01:15:49.320 --> 01:15:51.000 do you think? Yeah, no. I think, Hidal, 1959 01:15:51.000 --> 01:15:52.460 again, he said it very simple. And you 1960 01:15:52.460 --> 01:15:53.600 really don't need to say much more. But, 1961 01:15:53.600 --> 01:15:55.600 like, again, it's, it's. It's all systems go 1962 01:15:55.600 --> 01:15:56.960 after the election. Get this guy off the 1963 01:15:56.960 --> 01:16:00.240 street. It's the uncertainty of elections, which happens 1964 01:16:00.240 --> 01:16:02.620 to people, and this is normal. And you're 1965 01:16:02.620 --> 01:16:05.500 going to have the Trump that all the 1966 01:16:05.500 --> 01:16:06.880 things are building, right? All the things we've 1967 01:16:06.880 --> 01:16:08.880 talked about for a long time going forward. 1968 01:16:08.880 --> 01:16:11.080 And I do believe, you know, what, you 1969 01:16:11.080 --> 01:16:13.100 know, Huddl didn't, you know, elaborate on his 1970 01:16:13.100 --> 01:16:14.380 point here, but he's just saying it in 1971 01:16:14.380 --> 01:16:16.520 one sentence instead. But you have Warsh, a 1972 01:16:16.520 --> 01:16:18.340 lot of what's going on, these guys want 1973 01:16:18.340 --> 01:16:19.960 to be, they want to be dovish. You 1974 01:16:19.960 --> 01:16:20.940 know, I know, I know, I know, I 1975 01:16:20.940 --> 01:16:23.080 was hawkish and like all this stuff. But 1976 01:16:23.080 --> 01:16:25.240 like, we have 40, billion in debt. Like 1977 01:16:25.240 --> 01:16:26.700 you can't, you can't keep playing this game 1978 01:16:26.700 --> 01:16:29.040 forever. At some point, the chicken's home home 1979 01:16:29.040 --> 01:16:30.740 to roos, you got to have liquidity in 1980 01:16:30.740 --> 01:16:32.620 the market and there's got to be stimmies 1981 01:16:32.620 --> 01:16:35.460 somehow, some way, shape, some fashion. So that's 1982 01:16:35.460 --> 01:16:37.360 coming in 2027, 28, which goes back to 1983 01:16:37.360 --> 01:16:39.060 the four -year thesis, we talked about in 1984 01:16:39.060 --> 01:16:40.140 this show of they had a two -year 1985 01:16:40.140 --> 01:16:41.520 plan and they had a four -year plan. 1986 01:16:41.520 --> 01:16:43.420 The four -year plan lines and greases the 1987 01:16:43.420 --> 01:16:46.500 skids up for the general presidential election, which 1988 01:16:46.500 --> 01:16:49.640 is the elongating of the Trump plans, policies 1989 01:16:49.640 --> 01:16:53.060 of sovereignty, the American system, and bringing all 1990 01:16:53.060 --> 01:16:54.760 all the things back to America. it's not 1991 01:16:54.760 --> 01:16:55.780 a two -year thing. It's not a four 1992 01:16:55.780 --> 01:16:58.420 -year thing. You need a generation of this 1993 01:16:58.420 --> 01:17:00.520 coming back and on -shoring things and if 1994 01:17:00.520 --> 01:17:02.260 you go watch all their stuff, that's exactly 1995 01:17:02.260 --> 01:17:04.140 what they've been doing and lining up this 1996 01:17:04.140 --> 01:17:06.580 entire time. So to me, it's all systems 1997 01:17:06.580 --> 01:17:08.980 go because that, and like you said, Joey, 1998 01:17:08.980 --> 01:17:10.620 if Democrats come back in power at some 1999 01:17:10.620 --> 01:17:12.740 point, that's good, too. We saw with Biden, 2000 01:17:12.740 --> 01:17:13.700 right? You're going to have printing. You're going 2001 01:17:13.700 --> 01:17:15.280 to have mass craziness that way, too. It's 2002 01:17:15.280 --> 01:17:17.460 going to happen either way. So buckle up. 2003 01:17:17.460 --> 01:17:22.320 M2 decreased under Biden, fun fact. Yeah, yeah. 2004 01:17:22.320 --> 01:17:23.940 Just throwing it out there.! But that's, yeah, 2005 01:17:23.940 --> 01:17:25.060 but that's, that's, that's, that's. I think that's 2006 01:17:25.060 --> 01:17:27.660 a little bit of a base effect there, 2007 01:17:27.660 --> 01:17:29.220 I think. I know, I'm just throwing it 2008 01:17:29.220 --> 01:17:30.880 out there. I'm just throwing it out there, 2009 01:17:30.880 --> 01:17:33.580 guys. I just can't wait for president AOC. 2010 01:17:33.580 --> 01:17:35.720 I can't, you know, that's my president right 2011 01:17:35.720 --> 01:17:38.120 there. You know? I love it. You guys 2012 01:17:38.120 --> 01:17:39.480 see the meme of her other day. Just 2013 01:17:39.480 --> 01:17:43.240 on communism. What me? Talking about Elon, saying 2014 01:17:43.240 --> 01:17:44.880 like, he's just like the dumbest billionaire I 2015 01:17:44.880 --> 01:17:46.900 know. It's like the flying car behind her. 2016 01:17:46.900 --> 01:17:49.740 Oh my god. Yeah, that's really good. I 2017 01:17:49.740 --> 01:17:52.260 love it. I love it. The car is 2018 01:17:52.260 --> 01:17:54.280 still sick. Listen, we're, we're going to wrap 2019 01:17:54.280 --> 01:17:55.720 it up here. because I got to go. 2020 01:17:55.720 --> 01:17:56.860 I got to stream in 20 minutes and 2021 01:17:56.860 --> 01:17:59.120 I got to eat something. So for my 2022 01:17:59.120 --> 01:18:03.120 friends and I, Brandon, American Hoddle, Walker, thank 2023 01:18:03.120 --> 01:18:04.740 you for watching. Thank you for throwing chairs. 2024 01:18:04.740 --> 01:18:07.500 Ben and Nathan will be back on Wednesday. 2025 01:18:07.500 --> 01:18:09.020 My name is Joey. This was Bitcast. We 2026 01:18:09.020 --> 01:18:13.340 will see you later. You know the world 2027 01:18:13.340 --> 01:18:17.020 is heading down a dark path. Online censorship, 2028 01:18:17.020 --> 01:18:19.560 central bank digital currencies, a complete loss of 2029 01:18:19.560 --> 01:18:22.760 privacy, and it's only accelerating. 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