Johanna Divine 0:10
Hey and welcome back to Big towns where mid-sized cities find ideas that fit. I'm Johanna Divine with The Current back with part two of our three part conversation between journalist Dean Baquet and Chattanooga, Tennessee, Mayor Tim Kelly recorded April 24, 2025 at the Big Towns summit in Lafayette, Louisiana. If you didn't hear part one, start there. It's a great conversation and will give you some context for parts two and three. And if you've already heard that one, welcome back. Let's get right into it.
Dean Baquet 0:41
So when I, when I listen to the state of the city, it's, you have these huge, very ambitious one Chattanooga housing, police reform, do a riff for the for the audience on what those are, yep. And then I'll ask you how you're going to pay for them.
Mayor Tim Kelly 0:59
Well, again, I mean, I'm a big believer that, you know, you know, you aim for the moon, you may hit a star, sort of thing. So again, the book that I gave birth to, in many ways, was this One Chattanooga plan, which, if you need to get to sleep tonight, you can Google that. It's generally the first thing that pops up. But seven goals, 11 values. I do think values are important, mainly, you know, in business kind I do think culture eats strategy for breakfast, so the culture is important too. But the goals are pretty typical, and they were pre-COVID. I mean, it starts with a focus on early childhood development, developing infrastructure, developing a competitive regional economy, rebuilding the vitality of the black community, specifically, and they may come after that as well, but the data is the data, right? Let's see closing gaps in public health, which of course, correlate very closely to income, and creating efficient, effective government. We talked a little about the use of government. I ran my campaign on potholes, on filling potholes at the advice of a political consultant, which I thought was cartoonishly ridiculous at the time, but it worked. I won, and I began to realize that it was, you know, more than prosaic, because it, you know, look, if we can't fill potholes, then why would people give us permission to do anything other than that? I think a lot of the times, the problem we have on the left is that, you know, we have all these incredible, lofty social goals, but you have to make the trains run on time, right? You have to restore faith in government. And so much of what I'm trying to do is just restore faith that government can solve people's problems. Mitch Weiss at Harvard has talked a lot about this, about public entrepreneurship, and so, you know, that is the crux of it. I have been accused of having too many priorities, but, you know, I've only got eight years. We have a strong mayor model. So I don't, we don't we don't have a city manager. So, you know, my dad was an old military guy, and he had a sign up in his office that said, the beatings will continue until morale improves, right? And so I can't put that up in City Hall, but it is kind of my philosophy, because we really just don't have enough time, you know. We just have to go hard, to get as much done as we can. I do not want to look back...Well, I know there'll be a list of things that I look back on and say, damn it. You know, I wish I'd gotten to that. I just want it to be as short as possible.
Dean Baquet 3:30
So where does the money come from? When I looked at the at the list of things you want to accomplish, including police reform and other stuff, I thought, Man, that's a lot. Where's that going to come from?
Mayor Tim Kelly 3:41
Well, again, the only place where the money is a huge issue is early childhood. I mean, Head Start is a hugely important program. I went through business school late in life. I had a professor at Emory who really made a huge impression on me in terms of developmental psychology. And by the time a child is six years old the bread's baked. I mean, really, you could look at it as, what the hell are we doing? We should be spending like every dollar we can, all the first money on early childhood, like Finland does, and just let everything else you know, figure itself out. Because if you don't get that right, really, honest to God, nothing else matters. The rest of the time. We're just doing remedial work and so but, and that one is the super-expensive one. I mean, we've expanded Head Start. We're working very hard. It's so complicated, right? Because early childhood beyond Head Start is a small business ecosystem in this country. It's not organized. There's no school system for early childhood, and it's a huge area of opportunity. So that one is frustrating. Most of the rest of, I've come to understand, including workforce development, is not really an issue of money. It's an issue of disentangling, you know, bureaucratic misalignment and, and getting, you know, you know, getting connected and getting people on the same page. I'm also a big believer, coming from the foundation world, that if you cast a powerful enough vision, the money will figure itself out. We live in the wealthiest nation in the history of the world. Money is not the problem. Money is never the problem. You know, the problem is leadership and focus.
Dean Baquet 5:21
Why do you think Democrats and liberals have a reputation, if you took polls, for not being good at running cities or states first, do you agree with that, and why is that?
Mayor Tim Kelly 5:37
Personally? I mean, I think there are a few places you know, nobody's born getting good at organizational management, right? I mean, I say this all the time, if I ever write a book, probably it'll be about the shocking realization, really, when I got into office, about the fundamental differences between legislative politics and executive politics, right? I would be a really shitty legislative politician. I'm not a lawyer. I have very little patience, but I am good at starting things and running things, right? And executive politics, being a mayor, being a governor. I mean, the city of Chattanooga is a 2600-person service delivery organization. I was a car dealer, right? I mean, I'd go out to eat and people would stop me and say, hey, you know, my car is making a funny noise. And I'd say, you know, bring it in Monday. And now they stop me and say, you know, you forgot my garbage. And so it's not that different from what I used to do.
Dean Baquet 6:32
What do you say when they say you forgot my garbage?
Mayor Tim Kelly 6:37
I'll get on it Monday. I mean, again, like I'm used to doing this. We solve people's problems. That's what we do. Legislative politicians are and I don't mean this as a criticism. There's a place for that, right? But the process of sort of making the sausage and peacocking around and forming public policy, they're just very different and where I think where we get in trouble is when you take people with with larger political ambitions, coming out of legislative politics, typically from a legal background, right? But they've never run anything. And you know, you can get that in business, you can get it sports, you can probably get at the military, but you got to get it from somewhere. And I could sit here the rest of the time and give you examples. It's not a pejorative observation on lawyers or legislative politicians. It's just a fitness for duty thing.
Dean Baquet 7:30
I'm gonna leave a lot of time for questions, by the way, I promise. One panel I sat in on, I guess yesterday there was discussion about philanthropy, and the role of philanthropy in cities and helping to fund. Is there a philanthropic a large philanthropic community in your city?
Mayor Tim Kelly 7:51
There is, well, you know, again, Chattanooga was the home of Coca-Cola Bottling, which is how Coca-Cola scaled. Before that, it was just a fountain drink. And so all of that money unpacked into a very healthy philanthropic community, which I have learned doing you know state leadership programs is somewhat unique about Chattanooga. Don't know a ton about Lafayette's philanthropic community. I suspect it's pretty healthy, but it has acted really as sort of a policy keel for Chattanooga through the times when there really wasn't much going on. And so we were able, I think, to do a lot of thoughtful planning thanks to that community that we otherwise might not have been able to do.
Dean Baquet 8:36
So now I'll ask you an unfair question. Then I'll invite the audience to ask, here's my unfair question, but I ask it of everybody, what happened in 2016? I mean, I can talk about why the press was surprised, but what happened in 2016? What lessons did government learn from that public officials and Why were those lessons not evident the next time? Just talk a little bit about what happened in 2016.
Mayor Tim Kelly 9:07
Well, I mean, look, I thought obviously a lot about this, but I think it's a couple of things. And again, this is relevant to Lafayette and Chattanooga. I think there is a when you see it, you won't unsee it, but there is a very distinct and thick glass ceiling between major markets and the rest of us. You know, the aggregation of capital and cultural hegemony in major markets is a very, very real thing, New York, Los Angeles, LA Chicago. I mean, I don't know where you would draw that line, probably, you know, maybe 25th largest MSA in the country. We're both sitting, you know, both in Chattanooga and Lafayette on the wrong side of that line. But it's a real thing. I mean, turn on the Today Show. Watch it. Just watch an hour of the Today Show and pay attention to the cultural reference points and so on. I mean, it's been this low boil that, I think, and, you know, in Lafayette or Chattanooga, you know, cities have a certain element of cosmopolitanism to them. I mean, everybody goes to New York every now and then. But, you know, you get in cities smaller than that, and it's like, I don't live in that place they're talking about. It's there's a sense of alienation that I think, led to people's desire just to break things, right? Just to say, to hell with it, like it or not. And then there's an economic aspect to that, like we, in some respects, economically, are living on these cold outer planets where, you know, the jobs aren't great. You know, our kids all moved to the big cities to make the big money, and we're left, you know, in these quaint hometowns, trying to figure out, you know, how to make a fist of it. And you know that, we tend to tell people in this audience, we're preaching the choir. Tend to sort of think about that in more, sort of cognitive, rational terms, but if, you know, if you're a little further out in an even smaller town, you may not even understand why you're unhappy, but you're just unhappy. It's not working for you, right? And so you're just willing to try something else. I think that, combined with this kind of creeping sense we talked about backstage, a little bit that's related to it of elitism, just that, like we know better. And you know what? They may know better like, again, we're both Ivy League products. Went to Columbia...
Dean Baquet 11:27
I dropped out, though. So you graduated, right?
Mayor Tim Kelly 11:31
Fair enough, but it just doesn't work. You can't, you know, preach people into feeling a certain way that just nobody wants to live like that. It's, it comes down to agency, really.
Dean Baquet 11:42
So should we take questions now? I can keep going forever. Might have tons more, but you all should, this is too, too smart a crowd to not get to ask questions from here.
Guillermo Cisneros 11:54
So I, you know, I'm intrigued about, you know, you mentioned Austin, you know. And you know, keep Chattanooga like Austin was, you know, 30 years ago. I hear this comment in Grand Rapids, Michigan as well. You know, where, you know, politicians and people say, Well, we wish that we go back to the Grand Rapids in 1970s I wasn't in this country 60 years ago. Now, I'm, you know, I'm in the United States, you know. And I want something different. And these communities are evolving, changing, you know. And we need to adapt, you know, to what you know, what others you know that come from other countries, or France, times you know, are doing. So I'm just intrigued why you said that you know. You want to see that progress Austin has, I have heard, I have never been to Austin, but I have heard it's amazing, you know, the next generation wants to move there, you know. But so I just, I'm intrigued about, you know, how white people stick, you know, they want to get back to the to the 70s, when we are completely different.
Mayor Tim Kelly 12:59
Okay, so his question was about my statement about trying to keep Chattanooga Austin 30 years ago, and why I would say that, why we wouldn't want to just be Austin today, because Austin's a pretty great city. I was there for South by Southwest not long ago. Never been for South by Southwest. I mean, let's face it, it's a bit of just a provocative statement. I'm not saying we don't want progress. And what's really interesting about cities like Chattanooga, and I say this all the time, and y'all probably dealing with it in Lafayette as well, it's fascinating because Chattanooga has got, because of this remote work phenomenon, a lot of really talented people who have moved into Chattanooga, who could arguably be anywhere in the world, who've chosen to be in Chattanooga for quality of life, right? And then there's this other set of people who grew up in Chattanooga, who love Chattanooga, who probably don't have the skills to make it anywhere but Chattanooga, and they don't want anything to change. I mean, they see a Chili's pop up and they're like, what? Well this is ridiculous. You know, two out of state license plates and they're out. And so, you know, it's, it's like, so it's a Goldilocks problem, right? What we're trying to do is preserve that sort of just right mentality. I do not want to chase growth for the sake of growth, right? I had a former colleague who's a county mayor, who said, Look, you really got two choices. You can grow or you can raise taxes. And again, Tennessee, David Brooks wrote an interesting piece in New York Times, about this time two years ago, about blue cities and red states, and how that had created this kind of magical mix, because people want to be in blue cities. You know, cosmopolitan environments, diverse environments, has to be said. But they also, nobody wants to pay more taxes. Plenty of people will pay what they need to pay, and will pay what's what they feel is sufficient. But there's, again, there is a Goldilocks thing there, and so that's all I'm saying, is, is that again? And I the older I get, I study philosophy and religion at Columbia, the more I'm the more I realize that we really probably should be thinking more about living in within dynamic tensions, rather than living with sort of monolithic goals. And so that is what I try. That's how I think about this.
Dean Baquet 15:20
Yeah, I think the other critique of Austin, I'm not saying I buy it, but I've spent time there and talk to people there, is that, is that first off, as it's gotten larger, it's gotten less affordable, that Austin was sort of a city that had a certain character, and some of the character got a little bit lost, and that it's become a much more a much more expensive city to live in. I think that's a main critique of Austin too.
Brandye Meriwether 15:44
So just two questions for you. One, as you sit and you imagine what you want Chattanooga to be, is there like one city that you observe and research and say, Wow, I love what they're doing. Let's see if we can emulate some of that here in Chattanooga. That's the first part. And the second question is, I'm assuming Chattanooga is an entitlement city where you receive CDBG funds, and so if you all since you are, what are some programs of one great program you've implemented utilizing those funds?
Mayor Tim Kelly 16:18
So there's two questions. One was, are there cities that we particularly emulate? Second was, do we get CDBG funds? What are some of the programs that we're most proud of there? Is that correct? Okay, so the first one, there's not one city, New Orleans is one of them. I love New Orleans. I mean, I love Louisiana, I will say. And some of the comments that Mayor Smith was making earlier. You know, tourism is an important part of our economy, too, and but I think there are two really important parts of forms of tourism. As a kid, we would go to Gatlinburg, Tennessee, which is awful. It's just awful, right? Like, it's just God awful, right? You don't want tourism for tourism's sake, to go watch chickens playing tic tac toe, right? What you want, and I think Mayor Smith said this about about Meridian, you know, what you want us to build, build your tourism around your authentic culture, and then it's there for the people who want to participate in that. I think that is really the opportunity for cities like Chattanooga and Lafayette just be the best version yourself, and people will come to it. So the places where I see that are places we want to emulate. Louisville, I'm a big fan. The former mayor is a mentor of mine. Greenville, South Carolina, doing a great job. You know, a lot of respect, and again, New Orleans in a lot of respects. In some respects, not so much so. And then the second part, we've done quite a lot. We, I mean, the CDBG formula is, is pretty messed up. We don't get a ton of CDBG money, and I've never really understood the kind of the formula for that. But we get pennies on the dollar, compared to a lot of cities like Detroit. But we do a tremendous amount of neighborhood work, both to support, I mean, again, I think it's important to say great cities are composed of great neighborhoods, and we reorganize our whole neighborhood services division to, really, you know, put more focus on local control. Again, I do think that it's about, you know, neighborhoods taking control of their neighborhood, of their community centers, and having input on what they what, what kind of programming happens in those community centers, and kind of building up from there. You know, very much. Again, we're trying to do a lot when the local food movement, we just became the first national park city in North America, which is a concept we could spend the rest of the time talking about. But ultimately, it's about trying to, you know, support neighborhoods to be the best version of ourselves.
Missy Andrade 18:52
I'm Missy Andrade. I'm the CEO of our Community Foundation, and I'm a big Megan Jones fan.
Mayor Tim Kelly 18:59
I hired her. Me too.
Missy Andrade 19:02
I have lovingly stalked her for a couple of years because I think that that under her leadership, the Community Foundation is doing some pretty incredible work. So in your comments about shifting from being, you know, a board chair at the foundation and the perspective it gave you and your shift into government leadership. How are you leaning on the Community Foundation today? Where are you finding value in that relationship?
Mayor Tim Kelly 19:29
Yeah, okay, yeah, you got a unique voice. That's great. So look, I mean, again, the my time at the Community Foundation was incredibly impactful. Chattanooga again, probably I like Lafayette. I mean, I was, you know, born in a crazy, wealthy family, but it was definitely a family of privilege. And that was I never even was like a fish in water. I was just expected of you. You did nonprofit work, you did volunteer work, and I started out, you know, on the board of Big Brothers, Big Sisters, and you just sort of been. You know, it's an old adage, you know, you want something done, ask the busiest person you know, you just get asked to be on more and more and more stuff. And I wound up with the Community Foundation, and when they had a change in leadership, you know, I was on the committee that selected Megan, she's been unbelievable. I mean, again, community foundations are so important to mid south cities, particularly in this moment in time, because, as the federal government is withdrawing support in some ways, you know, again, it's a teachable moment around localism, because it's time for us to circle the wagons and figure stuff out for ourselves again. And there's a lot of money, as you know, in philanthropy on the sidelines to make stuff happen. So case in point, I mean, and this was during the Biden administration, when we had this, you know, tap on for federal money. The our Community Foundation led our eviction prevention initiative. And we have a pretty wicked homeless problem, because we have an affordable housing problem. And it was such a brilliant initiative because all it did our legal aid, not, not, not, not a great organization in Chattanooga, unfortunately, but they kind of were there to plus that up, and they would be in court at eviction, in eviction court to sort of help mediate on the spot between a landlord and a tenant, to say, hold on. You know, we can put up a little money to buy you a month to figure out what's going on. I mean, it prevented a couple thousand people from being evicted in Chattanooga. It wouldn't happen without our Community Foundation.
Johanna Divine 21:29
We'll pause here to wrap up part two of our big towns conversation with Mayor Tim Kelly. This episode of big towns was produced by The Current. Want to be part of the conversation? Sign up and get more info at bigtowns.org.
Hey and welcome back to Big towns where mid-sized cities find ideas that fit. I'm Johanna Divine with The Current back with part two of our three part conversation between journalist Dean Baquet and Chattanooga, Tennessee, Mayor Tim Kelly recorded April 24, 2025 at the Big Towns summit in Lafayette, Louisiana. If you didn't hear part one, start there. It's a great conversation and will give you some context for parts two and three. And if you've already heard that one, welcome back. Let's get right into it.
Dean Baquet 0:41
So when I, when I listen to the state of the city, it's, you have these huge, very ambitious one Chattanooga housing, police reform, do a riff for the for the audience on what those are, yep. And then I'll ask you how you're going to pay for them.
Mayor Tim Kelly 0:59
Well, again, I mean, I'm a big believer that, you know, you know, you aim for the moon, you may hit a star, sort of thing. So again, the book that I gave birth to, in many ways, was this One Chattanooga plan, which, if you need to get to sleep tonight, you can Google that. It's generally the first thing that pops up. But seven goals, 11 values. I do think values are important, mainly, you know, in business kind I do think culture eats strategy for breakfast, so the culture is important too. But the goals are pretty typical, and they were pre-COVID. I mean, it starts with a focus on early childhood development, developing infrastructure, developing a competitive regional economy, rebuilding the vitality of the black community, specifically, and they may come after that as well, but the data is the data, right? Let's see closing gaps in public health, which of course, correlate very closely to income, and creating efficient, effective government. We talked a little about the use of government. I ran my campaign on potholes, on filling potholes at the advice of a political consultant, which I thought was cartoonishly ridiculous at the time, but it worked. I won, and I began to realize that it was, you know, more than prosaic, because it, you know, look, if we can't fill potholes, then why would people give us permission to do anything other than that? I think a lot of the times, the problem we have on the left is that, you know, we have all these incredible, lofty social goals, but you have to make the trains run on time, right? You have to restore faith in government. And so much of what I'm trying to do is just restore faith that government can solve people's problems. Mitch Weiss at Harvard has talked a lot about this, about public entrepreneurship, and so, you know, that is the crux of it. I have been accused of having too many priorities, but, you know, I've only got eight years. We have a strong mayor model. So I don't, we don't we don't have a city manager. So, you know, my dad was an old military guy, and he had a sign up in his office that said, the beatings will continue until morale improves, right? And so I can't put that up in City Hall, but it is kind of my philosophy, because we really just don't have enough time, you know. We just have to go hard, to get as much done as we can. I do not want to look back...Well, I know there'll be a list of things that I look back on and say, damn it. You know, I wish I'd gotten to that. I just want it to be as short as possible.
Dean Baquet 3:30
So where does the money come from? When I looked at the at the list of things you want to accomplish, including police reform and other stuff, I thought, Man, that's a lot. Where's that going to come from?
Mayor Tim Kelly 3:41
Well, again, the only place where the money is a huge issue is early childhood. I mean, Head Start is a hugely important program. I went through business school late in life. I had a professor at Emory who really made a huge impression on me in terms of developmental psychology. And by the time a child is six years old the bread's baked. I mean, really, you could look at it as, what the hell are we doing? We should be spending like every dollar we can, all the first money on early childhood, like Finland does, and just let everything else you know, figure itself out. Because if you don't get that right, really, honest to God, nothing else matters. The rest of the time. We're just doing remedial work and so but, and that one is the super-expensive one. I mean, we've expanded Head Start. We're working very hard. It's so complicated, right? Because early childhood beyond Head Start is a small business ecosystem in this country. It's not organized. There's no school system for early childhood, and it's a huge area of opportunity. So that one is frustrating. Most of the rest of, I've come to understand, including workforce development, is not really an issue of money. It's an issue of disentangling, you know, bureaucratic misalignment and, and getting, you know, you know, getting connected and getting people on the same page. I'm also a big believer, coming from the foundation world, that if you cast a powerful enough vision, the money will figure itself out. We live in the wealthiest nation in the history of the world. Money is not the problem. Money is never the problem. You know, the problem is leadership and focus.
Dean Baquet 5:21
Why do you think Democrats and liberals have a reputation, if you took polls, for not being good at running cities or states first, do you agree with that, and why is that?
Mayor Tim Kelly 5:37
Personally? I mean, I think there are a few places you know, nobody's born getting good at organizational management, right? I mean, I say this all the time, if I ever write a book, probably it'll be about the shocking realization, really, when I got into office, about the fundamental differences between legislative politics and executive politics, right? I would be a really shitty legislative politician. I'm not a lawyer. I have very little patience, but I am good at starting things and running things, right? And executive politics, being a mayor, being a governor. I mean, the city of Chattanooga is a 2600-person service delivery organization. I was a car dealer, right? I mean, I'd go out to eat and people would stop me and say, hey, you know, my car is making a funny noise. And I'd say, you know, bring it in Monday. And now they stop me and say, you know, you forgot my garbage. And so it's not that different from what I used to do.
Dean Baquet 6:32
What do you say when they say you forgot my garbage?
Mayor Tim Kelly 6:37
I'll get on it Monday. I mean, again, like I'm used to doing this. We solve people's problems. That's what we do. Legislative politicians are and I don't mean this as a criticism. There's a place for that, right? But the process of sort of making the sausage and peacocking around and forming public policy, they're just very different and where I think where we get in trouble is when you take people with with larger political ambitions, coming out of legislative politics, typically from a legal background, right? But they've never run anything. And you know, you can get that in business, you can get it sports, you can probably get at the military, but you got to get it from somewhere. And I could sit here the rest of the time and give you examples. It's not a pejorative observation on lawyers or legislative politicians. It's just a fitness for duty thing.
Dean Baquet 7:30
I'm gonna leave a lot of time for questions, by the way, I promise. One panel I sat in on, I guess yesterday there was discussion about philanthropy, and the role of philanthropy in cities and helping to fund. Is there a philanthropic a large philanthropic community in your city?
Mayor Tim Kelly 7:51
There is, well, you know, again, Chattanooga was the home of Coca-Cola Bottling, which is how Coca-Cola scaled. Before that, it was just a fountain drink. And so all of that money unpacked into a very healthy philanthropic community, which I have learned doing you know state leadership programs is somewhat unique about Chattanooga. Don't know a ton about Lafayette's philanthropic community. I suspect it's pretty healthy, but it has acted really as sort of a policy keel for Chattanooga through the times when there really wasn't much going on. And so we were able, I think, to do a lot of thoughtful planning thanks to that community that we otherwise might not have been able to do.
Dean Baquet 8:36
So now I'll ask you an unfair question. Then I'll invite the audience to ask, here's my unfair question, but I ask it of everybody, what happened in 2016? I mean, I can talk about why the press was surprised, but what happened in 2016? What lessons did government learn from that public officials and Why were those lessons not evident the next time? Just talk a little bit about what happened in 2016.
Mayor Tim Kelly 9:07
Well, I mean, look, I thought obviously a lot about this, but I think it's a couple of things. And again, this is relevant to Lafayette and Chattanooga. I think there is a when you see it, you won't unsee it, but there is a very distinct and thick glass ceiling between major markets and the rest of us. You know, the aggregation of capital and cultural hegemony in major markets is a very, very real thing, New York, Los Angeles, LA Chicago. I mean, I don't know where you would draw that line, probably, you know, maybe 25th largest MSA in the country. We're both sitting, you know, both in Chattanooga and Lafayette on the wrong side of that line. But it's a real thing. I mean, turn on the Today Show. Watch it. Just watch an hour of the Today Show and pay attention to the cultural reference points and so on. I mean, it's been this low boil that, I think, and, you know, in Lafayette or Chattanooga, you know, cities have a certain element of cosmopolitanism to them. I mean, everybody goes to New York every now and then. But, you know, you get in cities smaller than that, and it's like, I don't live in that place they're talking about. It's there's a sense of alienation that I think, led to people's desire just to break things, right? Just to say, to hell with it, like it or not. And then there's an economic aspect to that, like we, in some respects, economically, are living on these cold outer planets where, you know, the jobs aren't great. You know, our kids all moved to the big cities to make the big money, and we're left, you know, in these quaint hometowns, trying to figure out, you know, how to make a fist of it. And you know that, we tend to tell people in this audience, we're preaching the choir. Tend to sort of think about that in more, sort of cognitive, rational terms, but if, you know, if you're a little further out in an even smaller town, you may not even understand why you're unhappy, but you're just unhappy. It's not working for you, right? And so you're just willing to try something else. I think that, combined with this kind of creeping sense we talked about backstage, a little bit that's related to it of elitism, just that, like we know better. And you know what? They may know better like, again, we're both Ivy League products. Went to Columbia...
Dean Baquet 11:27
I dropped out, though. So you graduated, right?
Mayor Tim Kelly 11:31
Fair enough, but it just doesn't work. You can't, you know, preach people into feeling a certain way that just nobody wants to live like that. It's, it comes down to agency, really.
Dean Baquet 11:42
So should we take questions now? I can keep going forever. Might have tons more, but you all should, this is too, too smart a crowd to not get to ask questions from here.
Guillermo Cisneros 11:54
So I, you know, I'm intrigued about, you know, you mentioned Austin, you know. And you know, keep Chattanooga like Austin was, you know, 30 years ago. I hear this comment in Grand Rapids, Michigan as well. You know, where, you know, politicians and people say, Well, we wish that we go back to the Grand Rapids in 1970s I wasn't in this country 60 years ago. Now, I'm, you know, I'm in the United States, you know. And I want something different. And these communities are evolving, changing, you know. And we need to adapt, you know, to what you know, what others you know that come from other countries, or France, times you know, are doing. So I'm just intrigued why you said that you know. You want to see that progress Austin has, I have heard, I have never been to Austin, but I have heard it's amazing, you know, the next generation wants to move there, you know. But so I just, I'm intrigued about, you know, how white people stick, you know, they want to get back to the to the 70s, when we are completely different.
Mayor Tim Kelly 12:59
Okay, so his question was about my statement about trying to keep Chattanooga Austin 30 years ago, and why I would say that, why we wouldn't want to just be Austin today, because Austin's a pretty great city. I was there for South by Southwest not long ago. Never been for South by Southwest. I mean, let's face it, it's a bit of just a provocative statement. I'm not saying we don't want progress. And what's really interesting about cities like Chattanooga, and I say this all the time, and y'all probably dealing with it in Lafayette as well, it's fascinating because Chattanooga has got, because of this remote work phenomenon, a lot of really talented people who have moved into Chattanooga, who could arguably be anywhere in the world, who've chosen to be in Chattanooga for quality of life, right? And then there's this other set of people who grew up in Chattanooga, who love Chattanooga, who probably don't have the skills to make it anywhere but Chattanooga, and they don't want anything to change. I mean, they see a Chili's pop up and they're like, what? Well this is ridiculous. You know, two out of state license plates and they're out. And so, you know, it's, it's like, so it's a Goldilocks problem, right? What we're trying to do is preserve that sort of just right mentality. I do not want to chase growth for the sake of growth, right? I had a former colleague who's a county mayor, who said, Look, you really got two choices. You can grow or you can raise taxes. And again, Tennessee, David Brooks wrote an interesting piece in New York Times, about this time two years ago, about blue cities and red states, and how that had created this kind of magical mix, because people want to be in blue cities. You know, cosmopolitan environments, diverse environments, has to be said. But they also, nobody wants to pay more taxes. Plenty of people will pay what they need to pay, and will pay what's what they feel is sufficient. But there's, again, there is a Goldilocks thing there, and so that's all I'm saying, is, is that again? And I the older I get, I study philosophy and religion at Columbia, the more I'm the more I realize that we really probably should be thinking more about living in within dynamic tensions, rather than living with sort of monolithic goals. And so that is what I try. That's how I think about this.
Dean Baquet 15:20
Yeah, I think the other critique of Austin, I'm not saying I buy it, but I've spent time there and talk to people there, is that, is that first off, as it's gotten larger, it's gotten less affordable, that Austin was sort of a city that had a certain character, and some of the character got a little bit lost, and that it's become a much more a much more expensive city to live in. I think that's a main critique of Austin too.
Brandye Meriwether 15:44
So just two questions for you. One, as you sit and you imagine what you want Chattanooga to be, is there like one city that you observe and research and say, Wow, I love what they're doing. Let's see if we can emulate some of that here in Chattanooga. That's the first part. And the second question is, I'm assuming Chattanooga is an entitlement city where you receive CDBG funds, and so if you all since you are, what are some programs of one great program you've implemented utilizing those funds?
Mayor Tim Kelly 16:18
So there's two questions. One was, are there cities that we particularly emulate? Second was, do we get CDBG funds? What are some of the programs that we're most proud of there? Is that correct? Okay, so the first one, there's not one city, New Orleans is one of them. I love New Orleans. I mean, I love Louisiana, I will say. And some of the comments that Mayor Smith was making earlier. You know, tourism is an important part of our economy, too, and but I think there are two really important parts of forms of tourism. As a kid, we would go to Gatlinburg, Tennessee, which is awful. It's just awful, right? Like, it's just God awful, right? You don't want tourism for tourism's sake, to go watch chickens playing tic tac toe, right? What you want, and I think Mayor Smith said this about about Meridian, you know, what you want us to build, build your tourism around your authentic culture, and then it's there for the people who want to participate in that. I think that is really the opportunity for cities like Chattanooga and Lafayette just be the best version yourself, and people will come to it. So the places where I see that are places we want to emulate. Louisville, I'm a big fan. The former mayor is a mentor of mine. Greenville, South Carolina, doing a great job. You know, a lot of respect, and again, New Orleans in a lot of respects. In some respects, not so much so. And then the second part, we've done quite a lot. We, I mean, the CDBG formula is, is pretty messed up. We don't get a ton of CDBG money, and I've never really understood the kind of the formula for that. But we get pennies on the dollar, compared to a lot of cities like Detroit. But we do a tremendous amount of neighborhood work, both to support, I mean, again, I think it's important to say great cities are composed of great neighborhoods, and we reorganize our whole neighborhood services division to, really, you know, put more focus on local control. Again, I do think that it's about, you know, neighborhoods taking control of their neighborhood, of their community centers, and having input on what they what, what kind of programming happens in those community centers, and kind of building up from there. You know, very much. Again, we're trying to do a lot when the local food movement, we just became the first national park city in North America, which is a concept we could spend the rest of the time talking about. But ultimately, it's about trying to, you know, support neighborhoods to be the best version of ourselves.
Missy Andrade 18:52
I'm Missy Andrade. I'm the CEO of our Community Foundation, and I'm a big Megan Jones fan.
Mayor Tim Kelly 18:59
I hired her. Me too.
Missy Andrade 19:02
I have lovingly stalked her for a couple of years because I think that that under her leadership, the Community Foundation is doing some pretty incredible work. So in your comments about shifting from being, you know, a board chair at the foundation and the perspective it gave you and your shift into government leadership. How are you leaning on the Community Foundation today? Where are you finding value in that relationship?
Mayor Tim Kelly 19:29
Yeah, okay, yeah, you got a unique voice. That's great. So look, I mean, again, the my time at the Community Foundation was incredibly impactful. Chattanooga again, probably I like Lafayette. I mean, I was, you know, born in a crazy, wealthy family, but it was definitely a family of privilege. And that was I never even was like a fish in water. I was just expected of you. You did nonprofit work, you did volunteer work, and I started out, you know, on the board of Big Brothers, Big Sisters, and you just sort of been. You know, it's an old adage, you know, you want something done, ask the busiest person you know, you just get asked to be on more and more and more stuff. And I wound up with the Community Foundation, and when they had a change in leadership, you know, I was on the committee that selected Megan, she's been unbelievable. I mean, again, community foundations are so important to mid south cities, particularly in this moment in time, because, as the federal government is withdrawing support in some ways, you know, again, it's a teachable moment around localism, because it's time for us to circle the wagons and figure stuff out for ourselves again. And there's a lot of money, as you know, in philanthropy on the sidelines to make stuff happen. So case in point, I mean, and this was during the Biden administration, when we had this, you know, tap on for federal money. The our Community Foundation led our eviction prevention initiative. And we have a pretty wicked homeless problem, because we have an affordable housing problem. And it was such a brilliant initiative because all it did our legal aid, not, not, not, not a great organization in Chattanooga, unfortunately, but they kind of were there to plus that up, and they would be in court at eviction, in eviction court to sort of help mediate on the spot between a landlord and a tenant, to say, hold on. You know, we can put up a little money to buy you a month to figure out what's going on. I mean, it prevented a couple thousand people from being evicted in Chattanooga. It wouldn't happen without our Community Foundation.
Johanna Divine 21:29
We'll pause here to wrap up part two of our big towns conversation with Mayor Tim Kelly. This episode of big towns was produced by The Current. Want to be part of the conversation? Sign up and get more info at bigtowns.org.
