speaker-0: This is 21st Century Reformation at 21stR dot org. Romans chapter 8. With everything he's just said in chapters 7 and 6 and 5 and 4 through 2 and 1, I'm I'm excited to come in at 8. That's right.
speaker-1: Yes, what's coming is the climax here, therefore.
speaker-0: Verse one, mm-hmm. There is therefore now no condemnation for those who are in Christ Jesus. That's I think a remarkably different picture from what we've just been looking at the end of So
speaker-1: Yes, yes.
speaker-0: I think we are shifting. Now we are seeing Paul in his present state as a Christian, it seems to me.
speaker-1: And that's it for now.
speaker-0: Verse two, mm-hmm. For the law of the spirit of life has set you free in Christ Jesus from the law of sin and death. Mm hmm. Verse three, for God has done what the law, weakened by the flesh, could not do. By sending his own son in the likeness of sinful flesh, and for sin, he condemned sin in the flesh, in order that the righteous requirement of the law might be fulfilled in us who walk not according to the flesh, but according to the spirit.
speaker-1: So
speaker-0: Back to the spirit business then aren't we? It's this new covenant, this new hope is all about the spirit, that that's ministered by the spirit.
speaker-1: And guess what? The requirement of the law in the last resort now does get fulfilled in us. Yes, yes, yes. There's the temptation for people to say, there you go, it's Moses all over again, the law, right? It's Moses in new sense. It's a spiritualized law, but it is the requirement of the law in the modern sense, in the New Testament sense, I should say. So we're not lawless. That's right. Are we doing away with the law? No way. That's right. Fulfillment of the law has to happen in our lives. But it's not just a copy of mosaic law. That's right.
speaker-0: The but instead and I I keep reminding myself, it is what the law was trying to picture for us. Now we have it in fulfillment and it's wonderful.
speaker-1: It's the law of the Spirit of Life, the translation is rather better here in the NASB, it's the law of the Spirit of Life in union with Messiah Jesus. yes. They lost that a little bit in that translation. I like that. Which has set us free. Yes. It only happens in Christ, this new spiritual law. I think that's brilliant. Triumphant stuff, really.
speaker-0: Right. And and that sense this this theme of freedom in Christ
speaker-1: yes.
speaker-0: is is what carries through so much of Paul's writing. It it was under it under laid the things he was saying in Galatians. and under lay much of what he's been saying here in Romans up till now were dead to the
speaker-1: Yes.
speaker-0: and so I think it's beautiful and it's wonderful, but it is freedom. and again that that is important. And I think the the writer of Hebrews also has that picture in mind this new and better way, this living way.
speaker-1: very much so. Why? God sending his son, has nothing to do with a pre-existing son. He commissioned his son, he sent him on a mission. That's clear. Still the human Jesus.
speaker-0: God sent John the Baptist.
speaker-1: Yes.
speaker-0: And but that didn't mean he came out of heaven somehow. That
speaker-1: Sent by God. Exactly right.
speaker-0: understand Jesus sent the the disciples.
speaker-1: Yes, all the prophets were sent. It's important to make that point because we've got this rather plaguing idea that Jesus is not really human, that he was either an angel or God the Son pre-existing. Fearful complication and undermining his humaneness really.
speaker-0: And so all these things. Christ certainly his origination is in in with God in heaven, as was John's baptism.
speaker-1: Exactly
speaker-0: Where was John's baptism? From heaven, yeah. So I don't think I've meant John people John was up there baptized in heaven somehow. So we we shouldn't confuse things coming from heaven, meaning that somehow they were literally in heaven in that sense. They they do come from heaven, come down from heaven. Everyone every good and perfect gift comes from heaven.
speaker-1: That's most of it. And if we want the easiest truth of all, it's in Matthew and Luke where the genesis of the sun is described.
speaker-0: Now we know.
speaker-1: The genesis, the origin, that genesis word there in 1 18 of Matthew is brilliant. It's the origin of the sun. If you lose track of that, I'm afraid you're losing stability in your New Testament reading, unfortunately.
speaker-0: Yeah. For God has done what the law, weakened by the flesh, could not do by sending his own son in the likeness of sinful flesh, and for sin, he condemned sin in the flesh. Verse four, in order that the righteous requirement of the law might be fulfilled in us who walk not according to the flesh, but according to the Son.
speaker-1: Yeah.
speaker-0: So the things that the law was trying to tell us, the the the righteousness it was trying to get us to, actually turns out not to have been fulfilled by those walking under the law prior to Christ, which includes Paul himself. He said, what a wretched fellow I am. Look at me here at that state. But it's it is fulfilled. Here's this fulfilling business again. Yes. It is fulfilled
speaker-1: Keyword
speaker-0: in us who now walk. not according to the letter, not according to the flesh, but according to this spirit being ministered by Christ.
speaker-1: I like your comment on fulfilled though because that's again Matthew 5. Don't imagine I came to destroy the law, came to fulfill it. The real ultimate meaning of the law is what Paul is doing here and Jesus himself said that in Matthew 5.
speaker-0: Verse five for those who live according to the flesh set their minds on the things of the flesh, but those who live according to the spirit set their minds on the things of the spirit. Why? For to set the mind on the flesh is death, but to set the mind on the spirit is life and peace.
speaker-1: interesting. I love it. Yes. Wow. I like the word mindset in English. We use that nicely. Our mindset, you know, is either controlled by television or the pleasures of this life or whatever, dominated by the world or dominated by the things of the Spirit, which is 1 Corinthians 2. We have the mind of Christ. We have the Spirit of Christ. Same thing. Mind, heart, spirit are very, very close. The words of Christ, of course, carry the Spirit. It's all here, isn't it? That's life and peace.
speaker-0: Verse seven. For the mind that is set on the flesh is hostile to God, for it does not submit to God's law. Indeed it cannot. Verse eight. Those who are in the flesh cannot please God. So in that state, in that in that mind, we can't please God. And that's the picture I think Paul was giving us of himself and humanity under the law without
speaker-1: I'm crying.
speaker-0: that's a pretty terrible situation.
speaker-1: It's interesting that the law of God is still a positive thing in verse 7, isn't it? The idea is that we're supposed to be submitted to the law of God. And that's still true. We confirm the law. We're not going to budge on one. We're not confirming the letter of the law of Moses. That's the difference.
speaker-0: In fact, there's a sense, it seems to me, in which we f affirm or establish the law in
speaker-1: Yeah.
speaker-0: what we're doing, because it seems to me that the law was foreshowing, foreshadowing, foretelling of these things in in Christ, in Messiah now. And every as we walk that out and as we're living it today, as we're breathing it and and speaking it, we are showing that what the law was foretelling is true. The law was right, the law was correct to foreshow and foretell us these things.
speaker-1: So we're back to a very initial point there that this whole new system that we're getting reoriented to Was found in the Old Testament. Yes. Yes, but it was found there only when you had eyes to see it For example those people who broke the Sabbath as Levites. Yes when working in the temple We're actually typifying the new system. They were Sabbath breakers. Please note. Yes, but they were not guilty How
speaker-0: Yeah.
speaker-1: do you have an innocent Sabbath breaker? That's right under the new system you do
speaker-0: And God I think probably as he developed the program of the law
speaker-1: Yes.
speaker-0: and he developed it with the thought in mind that it was going to foreshadow
speaker-1: Yeah.
speaker-0: the coming of the reality and messiah. But as God developed it, I think God was clever enough, wise enough that he built those things in to show, hey, you know, this this is not immutable. We're we're just getting from here to Point A which is
speaker-1: So God has a God's-eye view, doesn't he? We don't have that. We don't have the advantage of watching the whole of the sweep of history from before Genesis onwards. But God does. So the rock that followed them, the classic thing, the rock that followed them was Christ. Yes, but that's a type. And Paul said, we're not talking about a literal Messiah wandering around in the wilderness with them. That's right. But the rock was a typification, typing, T-Y-P in the technical sense. A type in the Bible is something that points beyond itself or beyond him or herself to something greater than itself as typology. And Paul says that in 1 Corinthians 10 there, that the rock was typikos, was a type of Jesus. And if one isn't sufficiently skilled in Bible reading, one is going to fall down flat on one's nose there, I see, that was literally Christ with a sort of a moving rock. And one is Mr. Subtly this whole typology.
speaker-0: Yeah. and are we really going to say that Jesus Christ was Lithos, he was a rock back there that was showing up here's hey look at that rock, it could be Christ. my goodness, for goodness sake. Let us get real here and realize.
speaker-1: very wooden and stupid, but we were there at one point.
speaker-0: Of course we were. That's right. I used that that very passage myself. See Christ was back there. my goodness. No. for goodness' sake. Yes. well. You know one thing I'm finding in this the the mind that is on the things of the spirit, which is Christ. And and so on is wonderful. the mind that is set on the flesh is hostile to God. But notice what he says then in verse nine. You, however, are not in the flesh, but in the spirit. In, I think, meaning under the influence of the spirit.
speaker-1: absolute within the sphere of
speaker-0: It's kinda like we talk we use the phrase in love. I'm in love. Yes. Which really means I'm under the influence of love. Right. we could be in spirit, under the influence of the spirit. We are in a A a good society where an influence
speaker-1: In good shape we say. When we teach our Greek we draw the circle and N with the dative case means in the sphere of. So you're in the Christian sphere, not outside
speaker-0: Excellent.
speaker-1: it, not beyond the limits of it. That's exactly right.
speaker-0: You, however, then are not in the flesh, but in the spirit, If in fact the Spirit of God dwells in you, and so this reminds me so much of what Paul says in Galatians five. He's going to say, you know, if you are walking in the spirit and not in the flesh, you're not under the law. This this has the law has no no effect upon us. and then he begins to talk about the works of the flesh. and and all of that. But I love what he says there. But I say, walk by the Spirit and you will not gratify the desires of the flesh.
speaker-1: Thank you.
speaker-0: For the desires of the flesh are against the Spirit, and the d desires of the Spirit are against the flesh, so these are contrary. These are opposed to each other to keep you from doing the things you want to do. But if you are led by the Spirit, you are not under the law.
speaker-1: Bye.
speaker-0: If you're in Christ, you're not under the law. You're dead to the law. Romans seven and
speaker-1: You've been released from
speaker-0: Released from the law, isn't that
speaker-1: the... The new system, brand new system, I love it. And it depends entirely on the risen Christ. This could not happen until this risen human being is energizing us now. And that's why the gospel definition is so important because you've been saying often, we've both been saying, the words of Jesus are critical here.
speaker-0: Yes.
speaker-1: The words of Jesus are the gospel of Jesus.
speaker-0: Yes indeed.
speaker-1: So if you mystify the Gospel, you're scrapping the words of Jesus. That's disaster because you're not cutting yourself from the very energy of the risen Christ. So the words of Jesus are critically important. Not just that he died and rose. That's very important too. But his actual words are the energizing, the life-giving words.
speaker-0: I love it. So he's he's telling us here, if in fact the Spirit of God dwells in you, then you are you are in Christ. Anyone who does not have the Spirit of Christ does not belong to him. How can this be? Because he is our connection with life. If if if you dwell in me and my words abide in you, with me you can do anything. Without me, you can do nothing. You know, and my this it's all John fifteen I can see in a way. It's all about this the wood being in Christ, yes.
speaker-1: Yes, this cannot be overemphasized because it's so easy to say, I believe in Christ, but not knowing what believing in Christ means. In other words, we've got to believe what Jesus believed. In order to believe in Jesus,
speaker-0: That's
speaker-1: you must believe what Jesus believed. It's the faith of Jesus, not just faith in Jesus, both things.
speaker-0: It's not just a matter of some recognition of the mind that Christ existed or that he died. That's right. Even the even that. We it's it's a bigger picture. If we say we believe in Christ, I love that, then we are saying we believe in what he believed. We believe in his God, for example. Yes. What about the technology of goodness, yes.
speaker-1: His God, absolutely. His theology. That's a strange idea for people, but that's very important.
speaker-0: Yeah. And we certainly believe in his word and the things that he taught in in Toto. That's right. And and regarding the kingdom and about our our state while we are here in preparation for that. So it's
speaker-1: We've produced Jesus, we've shrunk Him. When we put this band around our wrists saying, what would Jesus do? It's not wrong, it's fine. Let's follow His example. But I would also want to say, what would Jesus say?
speaker-0: Yes. Are we saying the kinds of things Jesus would say?
speaker-1: Unless you talk about the kingdom endlessly in preaching, you don't sound like Jesus. You sound like someone else, know, that isn't really Jesus because he was obsessed with the kingdom. we cannot go wrong if we concentrate on the words of Jesus. And I must just mention, Dan, that Luther, you see, made this mistake, I'm sure, when he says that if you never read Matthew, Mark and Luke, you're not missing much.
speaker-0: still.
speaker-1: You're missing everything actually because that's the beginning the foundation three corroborating accounts of the words the the words of Jesus the gospel that Jesus preached and Luther's saying well what really counts is that we're forgiven by grace That's very important and I see that Luther was struggling with that particular issue sure but in going to that extreme He actually abolished Christianity in some way
speaker-0: It it's it was terrible. It was a a horrible a horrible mishap, if you will, in theology. And And he put and he points us in an unfortunate direction there, you know, and I I'm certainly happy for whatever good that Luther did, but but this was not a good day for him when he sang if you miss Matthew, Mark, and Luke, you haven't missed much. That's not apparently that's not God's opinion because God went to a lot of trouble to make sure we had those books to read in our in the scriptures. And apparently it wasn't Jesus' opinion because Jesus was busy about saying and speaking those words and doing those things in Matthew, Mark, and Luke.
speaker-1: Heaven and earth will pass away but my words
speaker-0: That's right.
speaker-1: Mr. Luther, know pay attention here. My words will never pass away
speaker-0: And now we have not just in in those words, my words will never pass away, will not happen. Now we have not just something enduring, but we do have something eternal. Moses' law was enduring. Moses' law was certainly to be kept in perpetuity, but it was not eternal. No. And you know, even the prophet Jeremiah saw that it wasn't eternal. He saw that God was gonna make a new covenant. I I love
speaker-1: a brand new covenant. It's only a renewed covenant, it's both things. The two Greek words are used there, renewal and brand new, something brand new, as well as a renewal for covenant, both things.
speaker-0: Verse 10. But if Christ is in you, although the body is dead because of sin, the spirit is life because of righteousness. Verse eleven. If the spirit of him who raised Jesus from the dead dwells in you, he who raised Christ Jesus from the dead will also give life to your mortal bodies through his spirit who dwells in you. So I I love it. We're talking here about this recognition. Paul has been telling us all along the way that this is a matter of spirit rather than written code. It's a matter of spirit and and he's as we recognize he he speaks to the Corinthians about this that's ad administered by the spirit and not written and not even written in stone. Right. but this is better. This is written in the heart, it's written tablets on the yeah, and it's by a living Christ. Writing is a living thing.
speaker-1: That's exciting, it? It's not a written thing, it's an actual living person.
speaker-0: Yeah. So then isn't he saying here that if without this spirit of Christ in us, in our hearts, we're missing it. We're we're we're we don't even belong to Christ without that. There's no connection with him without the spirit. Isn't it interesting then that those who are in insistent on making th the spirit a third person
speaker-1: yeah.
speaker-0: Most often miss all of this. They're missing the whole point because they think they're talking about I I've even heard this absent Christ business about, you know, while Christ is off in heaven, the spirit is here busily taking care of his business. That's not so at all. The spirit of Christ is what we're talking about here. Him in presence, him working among his people and with him.
speaker-1: So the phrase Spirit of Jesus, know, 16 is very important. It's still the Spirit of Jesus. The Lord is the Spirit. I mean that text deserves wide press.
speaker-0: absolutely.
speaker-1: Second Corinthians 3, right? The Lord is the Spirit. Where the Spirit of the Lord is, I get it. There's freedom.
speaker-0: There is
speaker-1: So you don't want to mess with that at all and substitute another person for Jesus. We don't want that.
speaker-0: Wow. So he's going to say, If the spirit of him who raised Jesus from the dead dwells in you, that's wonderful, he who raised Christ Jesus from the dead will also give life to your mortal bodies through his spirit who dwells in them. So that I think that's a so now don't we have this recognition of what Jesus was was telling them about the Father and Himself, We will come, we will make our abode for
speaker-1: with you. Take up rest. And also in 1 Corinthians 15 it says that Jesus is now a life imparting spirit. Got it exactly here. Also give life to you. Life imparting.
speaker-0: Blah blah. Yes.
speaker-1: We don't want mess with this do we? Because we're really going to ruin the whole faith.
speaker-0: And what is so interesting about all this, this new program here, that's not what you see when you read Moses at all. It
speaker-1: No, it is.
speaker-0: isn't at all. Did you ever think about it? But John three sixteen is not found in the law of Moses. We don't have this picture at all. and this business of z an administration by the Spirit to the believer. That's not anything to do with Moses that I can find. Isn't that interesting?
speaker-1: No, it's a brand new
speaker-0: Verse 12. So then, brothers, we are debtors not to the flesh, to live according to the flesh. Verse 13, for if you live according to the flesh, you will die. But by the Spirit you put to death the deeds of the body, you will live.
speaker-1: Mm-hmm.
speaker-0: Verse 14. For all who are led by the Spirit of God are sons of God. Isn't that Galatians again? remember his statement in Galatians for if you're led by the Spirit you are not under the law. Right. I I like that in Galatians five.
speaker-1: The new concept here is sons of God, right? We're taking the argument one stage further now. What does this make us in terms of relatedness to God? We're
speaker-0: We are the
speaker-1: sons and daughters, we can say,
speaker-0: Certainly.
speaker-1: led by the Spirit of God, the mind of Jesus and the mind of God, yes.
speaker-0: I love it. Verse fifteen. For you did not receive the spirit of slavery to fall back into fear, but you have received the spirit of adoption as sons, by whom we cry abba father. Wow. But we're talking here about the spirit of sonship then. We're talking about this absolute
speaker-1: Thank
speaker-0: That is so critical because by that spirit if we are indeed now counted as sons of God. Yes. And but I I love that. Isn't that again why we must have the spirit of Christ, otherwise we're not Christ. And we're not sons of God. I like that.
speaker-1: We don't the mind of Christ, so we're far from him. We don't have the same mind as Christ, we're alienated from Christ. Very important.
speaker-0: another parallel with Galatians in the in the fourth chapter verses five and six, you know we have this where God sent when the fullness of time was come, God sent forth his son, born of a woman and born under the law, begotten perhaps. Yes. And and then to redeem them that were under the law. So isn't that a powerful statement? I love that a lot.
speaker-1: Why would you need to be redeemed?
speaker-0: W we have the law. We have Moses. What are you talking about? We gotta be re So
speaker-1: Isn't that right? That's wonderful.
speaker-0: it's a redemption of of those who were under the law.
speaker-1: buying back from the slave market.
speaker-0: So now by the Spirit we cry Abba Father. And I love that.
speaker-1: That's a very close relationship to the father, it?
speaker-0: Yes.
speaker-1: His sons and daughters on a spiritual basis.
speaker-0: Verse sixteen The Spirit Himself bears witness with our spirit that we are children of God. And if children, then we're heirs, heirs of God, and fellow heirs with Christ,
speaker-1: Yes.
speaker-0: provided we suffer with him in order that we may also be glorified with him.
speaker-1: That's wonderful. Now he takes in the whole broad suite of salvation, past, present and future. I like that. The spirit itself. The King James actually has itself there. That's quite possible. That's quite right. It doesn't matter. The spirit is very personal, but the spirit itself testifies with our mind, our spirit. We have a human spirit. There's a spirit in man, in the book of Job, I like that. The higher life is in the spirit, in the mind. And that then relates to God by this crying out of Abba, Father, which is an Aramaic word. right back into the depths of Jesus' ministry, they're remembering those Aramaic words, that being the age of time. They're
speaker-0: Jesus. Yes.
speaker-1: very precious. Abba, Father. Something like Dear Father. Perhaps not Daddy, that might be a little bit too familiar, but Dear Father would be about right.
speaker-0: And and then I I like this in verse seventeen where he's saying we are heirs of God because we're children, so that it follows we would be his heirs. But I I love this and joint heirs with the Messiah, with Christ. And I think I know that when I was given to the idea that Jesus himself was God This kind of a verse didn't mean much to me. Jesus is an heir of God. It didn't make much sense. Now I love it. I I enjoy that so much. Jesus himself as the chief one of us is God's key heir, if you will, and as the begotten Son of God.
speaker-1: clear
speaker-0: he is truly God's key heir. But we are now Paul can express our heirship as sons of God. We are heirs with
speaker-1: We're to inherit the kingdom.
speaker-0: It's our relationship with him that brings gives us this relationship with God and makes us heirs of the kingdom.
speaker-1: We're all interested in inheritance on the human level. Inheritance is a key.
speaker-0: That's right.
speaker-1: It can change our life radically if we inherit something. I just want to mention the Isaiah 9, 6 thing because unto us a child is born, unto us a son is given. That is born there can just as well be transcribed as begotten. And you've got then a little key and pointer to the virginal birth. Is begotten. It doesn't say that the father is.
speaker-0: Yes.
speaker-1: We call that in theology, in Bible study, a divine passive. So unto us a child has been begotten by God, that is. It's all in the past tense, it's a prophecy, of course, will be, but it's past tense a prophecy. But that word, beget, there is very, very key because it's the Father who's doing the begetting. It's a divine passive, will be begotten, a son will be begotten. That's very easy. That points then to the begetting of the son in the womb of his mother Mary.
speaker-0: that's excellent. Yes. A very good
speaker-1: Normally that begotten word you're told about the father. It says you know that Abraham begat children and so on. You know who the father is. But here you haven't got the name of the father. Will be begotten, a divine passive, meaning that God is the begetter there, as he's also called in 1st John 5.1. He's the begetter
speaker-0: Yes.
speaker-1: who lost that in translations. He said to be father. That's right, but he's actually the begetter. It's even clearer. Because that's the sensitive area in all theology is the origin of the sun. Isn't it? Yes. That's what the whole area in debate was about. And that's the key. What is the origin? Where are you from? You are identified by your origin. you not? Did we not argue about the president's original birth certificate and all that? Very interested in.
speaker-0: That's right.
speaker-1: And that needs to go on in terms of where is Jesus from? That's the key. Where's your origin? Yes. Well, the origin is in Matthew one eighteen, the Genesis.
speaker-0: Mm.
speaker-1: of Jesus was as follows and then the miraculous forgetting in Mary.
speaker-0: Verse 18. Paul now begins to shift and focus on this future glory that that's gonna verse eighteen, for I consider that the sufferings of this present time are not worth comparing with the glory that is to be revealed in to us. Verse 19, for the creation waits with eager longing for the revealing of the sons of God.
speaker-1: Minute moments later.
speaker-0: So it's it's like the next the next act.
speaker-1: And that's the King. The coming of the King, the Parousia, the second coming of Jesus. love that in verse 17. If indeed we suffer with him, so that we may also be glorified with him. You have 2nd Timothy 2.12. If we suffer with him, we'll reign as kings with him. So to be glorified equals to be reigning as a king. Exactly parallel.
speaker-0: Doesn't that say something too? I think it's a a a good word for all Christians to realize and new Christians and sometimes those have been around longer, there's this, I think, false notion that if you're a Christian then you're not going to have hard times, you're not gonna suffer, that'll be tough difficulties. But that's not the picture of the New Testament at all, is it? Not at all. in the New Testament Christians often endured d hardships in life. we had the the those Christians in Jerusalem that were victims of famine. There was difficulties, hardships that they encountered, indeed. But certainly they encountered persecution at times and at various levels. yeah. And they suffered with Christ, as it were. we've been we are baptized into him. Those have been baptized have been baptized into his death. We come forth to life but right now we also may suffer with him and this
speaker-1: course, that's Acts 14 22 when he warns them that through much tribulation we enter, we're destined to enter the kingdom, think. That's wonderful. As somebody said nicely, what is it? It's schooling for ruling and training for reigning. So in this laboratory, very cleverly done by God by this laboratory, there's all sorts of potential sufferings in many ways. How else would the pearl be fashioned? know, the pearl by irritation with the shell.
speaker-0: yes.
speaker-1: How will the Poles
speaker-0: Yeah, yes. Yes. So this is all about preparation. All about preparation. And and I think you know sometimes we let our minds Christians allow their minds to become focused on preparation for evil times ahead or difficult times. But I think we should let our primary focus always be we're preparing for the great things ahead, the great things are the kingdom of God.
speaker-1: It's a great text isn't it, the present time sufferings, the sufferings we go through now are not worthy to be compared. They may be very great even to the point of martyrdom, but if you're going to be raised to life for immortality, what's the comparison?
speaker-0: Wow. So and I like this translation which is saying they're not worth comparing with the
speaker-1: I like that, it's very good. Should not be compared under any circumstances with the glory. It's going to be revealed in us, not actually to us, in us, more than to us. We're not going to just watch that glory. The glory is going to be in us. We're going to
speaker-0: It's gotta reveal through us.
speaker-1: our case. Isn't that interesting?
speaker-0: Verse nineteen for the creation waits with eager longing for the revealing of the sons of God. Verse twenty. For the creation was subject to futility, not willingly, but because of him who subjected it in hope.
speaker-1: Yes.
speaker-0: Verse twenty one that the creation itself will be set free from its bondage to corruption, and obtain the freedom of the glory of the children of God. More freedom, more glory. Isn't this wonderful? What's coming is the ultimate
speaker-1: Impressible hope here. Nothing will keep Paul down. He's about to have his head chopped off in a few years by Nero. But he's full of joy, full of bounce and energy. This irrepressible hope.
speaker-0: And he's not spending all of his time stealing himself, preparing himself for the moment of his demise. He he's he's preparing himself by thinking ahead to that that when the the curtains come back and the sons of God are revealed.
speaker-1: It's this Georgia phrase, you know, ain't seen nothing yet, isn't it? How can we do better than that lovely phrase in Georgia? You ain't seen nothing yet, you know? There are lot of wonderful things in this age now, even, wonderful people, wonderful sights.
speaker-0: Verse twenty two for we know that the whole creation has been groaning together in the pains of childbirth until now.
speaker-1: Yes.
speaker-0: Verse twenty three, and not only the creation, but we ourselves who have the first fruits of the Spirit grown inwardly. as we wait eagerly for adoption as sons. Yes. The redemption of our bodies. So we the the whole creation is in this in this the throes of this struggle needing r redemption, needing to be made free. Yes. But and not only the all creation, even we ourselves are s are in that state now also, longing for this.
speaker-1: Very Jewish image, birth pangs, the Chavle HaMashiach, the rabbis call it, you know, just like a mother bearing a baby goes through the suffering. Exactly that image, so it's a very, very permanent sort of image that for us. And the adoption word is introduced in the text there. You know, it's not seriously, I'm not going to make a huge pond out of that, but simply sonship is actually what the Greek says. Adoption seems to me to put us as a slightly distant
speaker-0: Mm, mm.
speaker-1: to God I like some shit better.
speaker-0: And aren't we seeing all of this by stages, so to speak? yeah. we are living we're alive now with Christ, we've been dead with Christ, buried with him, raised to new life with him, and yet the new life that we are we're approaching is not fully here the in the full e experience that that we will have.
speaker-1: Down payment of the spirit of course, know, the famous Arabic which is a commercial word in the first century.
speaker-0: Yeah.
speaker-1: it's a down payment. You put a down payment on a house. You've got the spirit, but not in full measure yet until you are glorified. So I love 24, in hope we've been saved. We have been saved, but not really yet, right? So we use the text all the time in Romans. Salvation is now closer to us than when we first...
speaker-0: Then believed the internet.
speaker-1: The system out there tends to do the opposite. When I got saved, when I got saved, I was saved when I was six. No, the emphasis in the new is actually on the process and also the culmination in the future.
speaker-0: So it's a recognition that both are true, but if the the emphasis of the scriptures and the focus of the scriptures is you ain't seen nothing yet. That's right. That's right. That's
speaker-1: Isn't that great? So you've been saved in hope of being saved. I
speaker-0: Yeah, three I love.
speaker-1: can have that. That's the grasping of the totality, the Hebrew way of thinking, the whole broad sweep, know, the process. So we want to say, was it? You tell me exactly where it all works. No, just think broad here. You're saved in hope of being saved.
speaker-0: Now hope that isn't seen is hope. Mm-hmm. For who hopes for what he sees? If you've already it's in your grasp here, you've got it hoping. You're not still hoping. We're still hoping. So there is this by stages we're coming to all of this, I think.
speaker-1: It is better.
speaker-0: Verse twenty five. Yes. But if we hope for what we do not see, we wait for it with patience. We know it's still there, but we're hoping and and holding to it.
speaker-1: Yes,
speaker-0: 26. Likewise the Spirit helps us in our weakness. back to this problem of in ourselves and without Christ there's this terrible weakness. But now Christ in spirit helps us. I I like that. He is our mediator, he is our helper, the advocate, the paraclate does. So so here we he is, he's helping us in that weakness.
speaker-1: Yeah.
speaker-0: For and and that's something that Paul didn't have the advantage of under the law. and now that we're dead to the law, we're free to be married to Christ. Right. For and now in Christ we have this this wonderful help of the Spirit. But the sp So I love this, for we do not know what to pray for as we ought. I think perhaps this is a an example of how the Spirit works, but the one that comes to his mind. Yes. we do not know what to pray for as we ought. But the Spirit Himself intercedes for us with groanings too deep for words. And I think perhaps this could be the Spirit of Christ
speaker-1: yeah.
speaker-0: at work in us, helping us to know how we ought to to pray and interceding for us. He's our intercessor. Yes.
speaker-1: They're groans rather than not offenses. They're not words exactly but it's a groaning a sense of yearning.
speaker-0: In the in the in that yearning kind of thing.
speaker-1: Absolutely. Yes. I like the word help there because we're all crying out for help. Recently we talked about the lady, the Canaanite lady, you know, who was turned down. She's not a Jew. But she persisted and she says, Lord help me with my demon influenced child. Isn't that a marvelous example of crying out, yeah but the crumbs get fed to the lady too. I thought that was wonderful.
speaker-0: So this is the the spirit himself, this is Christ himself, I think, in us
speaker-1: Excellent.
speaker-0: b expressing expressing a yearning that's too deep for our words.
speaker-1: That's exactly right. think so. A longing and a yearning. Yes.
speaker-0: Verse twenty seven, and he who searches hearts knows what is the mind of the spirit, because the spirit intercedes for the spirit for the saints according to the will of God. Yes. So this is wonderful. So I think then maybe in this setting the the one who searches hearts is God who knows the mind of the spirit working in us and yearning, and God recognizes that our our yearnings and our groanings if we will, these things are of of Christ bringing us back to Him. which is also why I think that by the Spirit, by that same Spirit of Christ we're able to to cry have a Father. Yes. it's all the Spirit of Christ in us bringing these things.
speaker-1: As Paul said earlier, united with our spirit, there's a sort of emerging then of our natural human spirit with the spirit of Jesus and the spirit of God. Indistinguishable by the way, nobody distinguishes really between the spirit of God and
speaker-0: Jesus generally speaking, you're just it's this spirit. Yeah.
speaker-1: just the spirit coming from heaven to earth.
speaker-0: And and again, isn't it just tragic how the when the when they invented the idea that the Spirit of God is another person from the Father and from Christ. That's terrible. It's tragic. Because then you're reading all this thinking, it's this third person doing all that. It's not. It's Christ doing these things in us in spirit.
speaker-1: So we always add then the Spirit is never worshipped. Nobody worships the Spirit. Nobody prays to the Spirit, ever. And the Spirit never sends any greetings. So
speaker-0: Yeah, I
speaker-1: one large group of Christians said, well, the Spirit is a shy third person, doesn't do much.
speaker-0: Yeah.
speaker-1: I think they were struggling with the lack of evidence. And of course, at Nicaea in 325 AD, they were uncertain what the Spirit was. They simply believed in the Spirit. Even 325 years later,
speaker-0: That's right. Way down the line. And they still
speaker-1: I'm so glad that they were honest enough to say, not sure, let's not define this.
speaker-0: So it it took a a lot of a n a bunch of, if you will, Gentile folks coming into this to bring us to the idea of the spirit of the third person. Something the Jewish mind, the old testament mindset and the new testament mindset never would have
speaker-1: don't think we need a third person to account for the data. The data we're given on Spirit, you don't need a third person. Granted, there is a kind of personification. Treat it as though it's a person. You could go in that direction, but the sweep of the data doesn't give you a third person. need that. Absolutely.
speaker-0: much better the s the scriptures are much better understood realizing that the spirit right as in these cases is Christ.
speaker-1: the operational presence and power of God. would say very personal, but not clearly a third person. And
speaker-0: No doubt.
speaker-1: I got that phrase from the Bible dictionary by the way, most of this is in the dictionary, the operational presence and power of God or Jesus, indiscriminate doesn't matter, operating in His world in various ways to help us.
speaker-0: I like it. There's that help that we didn't have under the law. Yes. Wow. That's right. That it's wonderful. Verse twenty eight, and we know that for those who love God all things work together for good, for those who are called according to his purpose. Okay. Verse twenty nine, for those whom he foreknew he also predestined to be conformed to the image of his son, in order that he might be the firstborn among many brothers.
speaker-1: That's Jesus as the firstborn among them, you were saying. The Co-heirs idea, isn't it? We're brothers and sisters of Christ. Co-heirs with him.
speaker-0: So the objective here is that the Christian would become conform to the image, the character, if you will, of
speaker-1: Awesome.
speaker-0: the Son of God. Yes. The image of That's
speaker-1: He's the preeminent one, he's first one of New Crime.
speaker-0: right. The new the new group.
speaker-1: the only true really in...
speaker-0: Isn't that so that's how radically different this new arrangement is. It's so radically different that Christ is said to be here the the preeminent one in a new creation. So what's forming up here is a new creation in God of those who are given this unending Aeonian life in Christ. How new is that
speaker-1: Yes, what's being formed, what's forming up as you said, what's being shaped. This is the Greek word morphy, know, we're being conformed, conformed to the image of Jesus as a brother and sister.
speaker-0: So this is wonderful. So i the
speaker-1: triumph
speaker-0: I I love this and he's going to say that he might be the firstborn among many brothers. That again is reminiscent in my mind of Deuteronomy eighteen. He from among his own brothers, God's going to raise up yes this one who will be a prophet. I I love that.
speaker-1: Yes, and in Hebrews, Jesus is singing to God along with the brothers. It doesn't suggest that he is God, the
speaker-0: With the brother. That's that's right. That's right.
speaker-1: Son of God singing to
speaker-0: I love that. And that's that's wonderful. So so and he is then truly one of us. Back to Paul's emphasis through the the fifth chapter. And it w this man, this one man, this man, he is the one who set things aright. the and Adam was really a foreshadowing of him. Absolutely. Isn't that just like Moses was a foreshadowing. The law was a foreshadowing of these things now.
speaker-1: The tragedy would be, Dan, surely, that you're missing the whole point of the whole Bible if you're going to say he's really 100 % God. The whole point is that he's the model of what a man ought to be before God. And
speaker-0: Yeah, yeah.
speaker-1: you begin to say he's 100 % God anyway. You've really destroyed the whole picture. Not
speaker-0: Yes, yes, for goodness sakes.
speaker-1: to mention that you've created a complexity of vocabulary and distinctions and philosophical languages, nightmare, brain-breaking exercise of people. Let's stay with the man, Messiah, Jesus.
speaker-0: And and of course this this business about those that he foreknew, he predestined, this sort of thing. not in the sense that is often bandered about by those who say God just arbitrarily chose for whatever reason. we'll talk more about that I guess in the ninth chapter.
speaker-1: I would think so.
speaker-0: but that's not in that sense.
speaker-1: This is one side of the coin. There is a synergism of working together in some way between God and those he calls and chooses.
speaker-0: Verse thirty one What then shall we say to these things? If God is for us, who can be against us? He who did not spare his own son but gave him up for us all, how will he not also with him graciously give us all things? I love that. Well
speaker-1: Huge language, isn't it?
speaker-0: this is tremendous and again it's not It's not Law of Moses language. No. This is this new arrangement. New kingdom of God language. Yes. Yeah at all things. He'll graciously
speaker-1: If you've got God on your team, it's going be hard to get beaten.
speaker-0: That's right. If if you were choosing up teams, God would probably be the very first one you'd want to choose.
speaker-1: on my team. That's what he says, God is for you, he's on your team. Relax, he's going to win.
speaker-0: Yeah. I like that too. one comment I think sometimes about all things work together for good. We were talking about that according to his purpose. I think in verse twenty eight, I think sometimes we get caught up a little bit. I think the sense of it may be better and I think some translations will carry it. God works in all things to the good, for our good. No matter what the what comes. It's not that God wants evil to come to us. It's not that God wants difficulties to come to us. in fact Jesus is saying, pray that you know, that you would not enter into temptation. So that's not good. We don't want that. So it's not that God brings everything into our lives that comes, but He does work in all things to our good. No matter what it
speaker-1: It's an important distinction, especially in today's news, know, with the tragedy in Connecticut, where rather glibly people say, well, it was time for God to call these people home. I strongly object to that. God works in whatever tragic circumstances may come your way to help you through that, but not that He designed that to call these children to heaven. That isn't right.
speaker-0: Surely, surely. No. Hey, no.
speaker-1: It's actually rather an insult to God.
speaker-0: I agree with you completely and I think it's a total misstatement. So sometimes I know growing up I used to always hear that g you know God is essentially bringing everything about n that comes no matter and no matter what evil comes, no what terrible things God did that. and but I think the sense of it is not that. God doesn't want everything to happen that happens, but he does work in all
speaker-1: That's right. That's right.
speaker-0: No matter what happens.
speaker-1: permissive will allows all sorts of time and chances, as Pesciansi said. Otherwise, we're faced with the fact that, know, praise God, those people got murdered because God wanted them. That's insufferable Calvinism for me.
speaker-0: It's very unfortunate. a and very terrible way to be thinking about God. Horrible. So everything that evil or horrible, terrible happens, you say, Well, God did it you know you know I heard one poor fellow on television one time saying, if I had a wreck out here someone said, What would you say? And I he would say, I would just say, Well look what God has done. He's caused a wreck. Well, I'm sorry. I th I think that's a a wreck in in theology too. And a terrible misappropriation toward God. And a a terrible way to be thinking about God. It's not I'm wrong. But he does work. He loves us and he works in all things for our good and
speaker-1: and bring those people through that tragedy if they people of faith, but
speaker-0: Surely to goodness.
speaker-1: not to diminish in any way the suffering that they're going through.
speaker-0: Verse 33. Who shall bring any charge against God's elect? It is God who justifies. Who is to condemn? Christ Jesus is the one who died. More than that, who was raised, who is at the right hand of God, huh? Who indeed is interceding for us. Wow. So we get that sense of the spirit interceding. I think that is Christ in us working among his people.
speaker-1: Exactly right.
speaker-0: And So then verse thirty five, who shall separate it from the love of Christ? Shall tribulation or distress or persecution or famine or nakedness or danger or sword? As it is written, For your sake we are being killed all the day long. We are regarded as sheep to be slaughtered. my goodness. Very very
speaker-1: half-language.
speaker-0: awful Difficult thing. Verse 37. No, in all of these things, we are more than conquerors through him who loved us through Christ. Back to that thought, you know. Who will deliver me? Well, thank God for Christ Jesus, because that's our deliverance and that's our hope that he mentioned earlier. Verse 38. For I am sure that neither death nor life Nor angels, nor rulers, nor things present, nor things to come, nor powers, nor height, nor depth, nor anything else in all creation will be able to separate us from the love of God in Christ Jesus our Lord. Wonderful.
speaker-1: Yeah. Wonderful summary.
speaker-0: What a what consolation to realize that that there is nothing that can come at us and come upon us or come against us.
speaker-1: If God is on our side. Yeah,
speaker-0: And if God is on our side, that's it.
speaker-1: I like your point about verse 34 that Christ is the right hand interceding for us because we have the Spirit interceding in verse 27. Yes, yes. And here it's Christ interceding. Well, we've got two intercessors. I don't think we need two paracletes really.
speaker-0: That's right.
speaker-1: Let's just say that Jesus is the paracletos as 1 John 2. identified as the paracletos unless you want to posit two paracletos, you know.
speaker-0: Well and which makes sense when you think about it because i it's the spirit of Christ in us that allows us to be able to say Abba Father. it is the Son of God, Jesus Christ, working in us that is allows us to be able to say Abba Father and is is th the Christ, i the Spirit of Christ that without which we don't belong to Christ and surely then we have no station or place with God. So I I it's very
speaker-1: Very important, let's mention that text in John 7, the end of John 7, where says there's no spirit yet.
speaker-0: Yeah, yes.
speaker-1: Translations from the Slyther say the spirit wasn't given or something. doesn't say that. He says there was no spirit. That
speaker-0: Wasn't it?
speaker-1: clearly doesn't mean there wasn't a spirit. The spirit had been very active in Zechariah's songs, Elizabeth's songs, but it means there's no spirit yet from the risen Christ.
speaker-0: This spirit of Christ in us working in it had not done
speaker-1: not happen. Jesus was full of spirit and He imparted spirit even on earth. We need to clarify that because all sorts of nonsense is made out of spirit there. There's no spirit until Acts. no, no.
speaker-0: That's
speaker-1: Plenty of spirit, but it came in a new way.
speaker-0: This new business of the spirit coming to the people in Christ Jesus, Messiah coming to the people. Yeah. I love it. It's one so when you begin to realize that the spirit of God in this sense is Christ working in his people. Yeah, it just opens everything up to me. I think suddenly it
speaker-1: Well you're the one who brought the text again, Aeneas, you know, Aeneas comes along and says Jesus Christ is healing you in Acts there.
speaker-0: Yes, Allah's watch.
speaker-1: think we underestimate that, especially Unitarian people do, the Lord is generally the Lord Jesus, not a fixed rule, but Yahweh without the out-ult, just Lord is Kiryos, the Lord God, but the Lord is very often the Lord Jesus
speaker-0: Yes.
speaker-1: and he's extremely active. in the New Testament picture and we must not diminish that otherwise we're going back to Moses.
speaker-0: Yes.
speaker-1: We're acting as though the Father is it and there is no Jesus. My goodness that's a disastrous error.
speaker-0: That's right. That's right. it's so again in verse thirty-seven he's saying, No in all these things we're more than conquerors through him who loved us. Verse thirty-eight, for I am sure that neither death nor life nor angels nor rulers nor things present nor things to come nor powers Nor height, nor depth, nor anything else in all creation will be able to separate us from the love of God in Christ Jesus our Lord. That's wonderful. And again, I I I think as marvelous and incredible statements as these are, they should not be taken without regard to John fifteen, where that Christ says, You abide in me, remain in me, and I in you, and then you will ask what you will, it will be done. And so on and so forth. But if one does not remain in me or abide in me with the words. Yeah. So nothing is gonna be able to take you away from Christ.
speaker-1: provided that
speaker-0: That you as long as you remain in Christ, you've got it. So I
speaker-1: That's a tremendous say. I'm glad you're really impressed. I'm terribly impressed with that thing in John 15.
speaker-0: is, bro.
speaker-1: If my words abide in you, you can ask what you will.
speaker-0: If we want, if we think that we might find a a greater work of God in our day, maybe we should keep in mind those words in John fifteen. If if you abide in me. That's total relationship. And my words abide in you. The words of Christ have been so derailed, so yes I don't it would be very difficult to say, yes, we're abiding in the words of Christ. We barely ha understand the word we're on the fringes, I think, in Christianity so much. If we could ever really get to the state that we're truly abiding in Christ, He's abiding in us. We are are walking according to His words are are in us,
speaker-1: Everything
speaker-0: which would mean we're walking according to His words. It's not just hearing them, but doing them that matters.
speaker-1: Why don't some of those verses become the John 3.16? The John 3.16 is beautiful, we know that. But it tends to be to the isolation of everything else. But you've got synonymous parallelism, as they call it, where you say the same thing twice, the one statement reinforces the other, in other words. So to abide in Christ is meaningless if his words are not abiding in you. And that takes us to his gospel of the kingdom. If you're not obsessed with the gospel of the kingdom, you don't sound like Jesus.
speaker-1: Yes, what's coming is the climax here, therefore.
speaker-0: Verse one, mm-hmm. There is therefore now no condemnation for those who are in Christ Jesus. That's I think a remarkably different picture from what we've just been looking at the end of So
speaker-1: Yes, yes.
speaker-0: I think we are shifting. Now we are seeing Paul in his present state as a Christian, it seems to me.
speaker-1: And that's it for now.
speaker-0: Verse two, mm-hmm. For the law of the spirit of life has set you free in Christ Jesus from the law of sin and death. Mm hmm. Verse three, for God has done what the law, weakened by the flesh, could not do. By sending his own son in the likeness of sinful flesh, and for sin, he condemned sin in the flesh, in order that the righteous requirement of the law might be fulfilled in us who walk not according to the flesh, but according to the spirit.
speaker-1: So
speaker-0: Back to the spirit business then aren't we? It's this new covenant, this new hope is all about the spirit, that that's ministered by the spirit.
speaker-1: And guess what? The requirement of the law in the last resort now does get fulfilled in us. Yes, yes, yes. There's the temptation for people to say, there you go, it's Moses all over again, the law, right? It's Moses in new sense. It's a spiritualized law, but it is the requirement of the law in the modern sense, in the New Testament sense, I should say. So we're not lawless. That's right. Are we doing away with the law? No way. That's right. Fulfillment of the law has to happen in our lives. But it's not just a copy of mosaic law. That's right.
speaker-0: The but instead and I I keep reminding myself, it is what the law was trying to picture for us. Now we have it in fulfillment and it's wonderful.
speaker-1: It's the law of the Spirit of Life, the translation is rather better here in the NASB, it's the law of the Spirit of Life in union with Messiah Jesus. yes. They lost that a little bit in that translation. I like that. Which has set us free. Yes. It only happens in Christ, this new spiritual law. I think that's brilliant. Triumphant stuff, really.
speaker-0: Right. And and that sense this this theme of freedom in Christ
speaker-1: yes.
speaker-0: is is what carries through so much of Paul's writing. It it was under it under laid the things he was saying in Galatians. and under lay much of what he's been saying here in Romans up till now were dead to the
speaker-1: Yes.
speaker-0: and so I think it's beautiful and it's wonderful, but it is freedom. and again that that is important. And I think the the writer of Hebrews also has that picture in mind this new and better way, this living way.
speaker-1: very much so. Why? God sending his son, has nothing to do with a pre-existing son. He commissioned his son, he sent him on a mission. That's clear. Still the human Jesus.
speaker-0: God sent John the Baptist.
speaker-1: Yes.
speaker-0: And but that didn't mean he came out of heaven somehow. That
speaker-1: Sent by God. Exactly right.
speaker-0: understand Jesus sent the the disciples.
speaker-1: Yes, all the prophets were sent. It's important to make that point because we've got this rather plaguing idea that Jesus is not really human, that he was either an angel or God the Son pre-existing. Fearful complication and undermining his humaneness really.
speaker-0: And so all these things. Christ certainly his origination is in in with God in heaven, as was John's baptism.
speaker-1: Exactly
speaker-0: Where was John's baptism? From heaven, yeah. So I don't think I've meant John people John was up there baptized in heaven somehow. So we we shouldn't confuse things coming from heaven, meaning that somehow they were literally in heaven in that sense. They they do come from heaven, come down from heaven. Everyone every good and perfect gift comes from heaven.
speaker-1: That's most of it. And if we want the easiest truth of all, it's in Matthew and Luke where the genesis of the sun is described.
speaker-0: Now we know.
speaker-1: The genesis, the origin, that genesis word there in 1 18 of Matthew is brilliant. It's the origin of the sun. If you lose track of that, I'm afraid you're losing stability in your New Testament reading, unfortunately.
speaker-0: Yeah. For God has done what the law, weakened by the flesh, could not do by sending his own son in the likeness of sinful flesh, and for sin, he condemned sin in the flesh. Verse four, in order that the righteous requirement of the law might be fulfilled in us who walk not according to the flesh, but according to the Son.
speaker-1: Yeah.
speaker-0: So the things that the law was trying to tell us, the the the righteousness it was trying to get us to, actually turns out not to have been fulfilled by those walking under the law prior to Christ, which includes Paul himself. He said, what a wretched fellow I am. Look at me here at that state. But it's it is fulfilled. Here's this fulfilling business again. Yes. It is fulfilled
speaker-1: Keyword
speaker-0: in us who now walk. not according to the letter, not according to the flesh, but according to this spirit being ministered by Christ.
speaker-1: I like your comment on fulfilled though because that's again Matthew 5. Don't imagine I came to destroy the law, came to fulfill it. The real ultimate meaning of the law is what Paul is doing here and Jesus himself said that in Matthew 5.
speaker-0: Verse five for those who live according to the flesh set their minds on the things of the flesh, but those who live according to the spirit set their minds on the things of the spirit. Why? For to set the mind on the flesh is death, but to set the mind on the spirit is life and peace.
speaker-1: interesting. I love it. Yes. Wow. I like the word mindset in English. We use that nicely. Our mindset, you know, is either controlled by television or the pleasures of this life or whatever, dominated by the world or dominated by the things of the Spirit, which is 1 Corinthians 2. We have the mind of Christ. We have the Spirit of Christ. Same thing. Mind, heart, spirit are very, very close. The words of Christ, of course, carry the Spirit. It's all here, isn't it? That's life and peace.
speaker-0: Verse seven. For the mind that is set on the flesh is hostile to God, for it does not submit to God's law. Indeed it cannot. Verse eight. Those who are in the flesh cannot please God. So in that state, in that in that mind, we can't please God. And that's the picture I think Paul was giving us of himself and humanity under the law without
speaker-1: I'm crying.
speaker-0: that's a pretty terrible situation.
speaker-1: It's interesting that the law of God is still a positive thing in verse 7, isn't it? The idea is that we're supposed to be submitted to the law of God. And that's still true. We confirm the law. We're not going to budge on one. We're not confirming the letter of the law of Moses. That's the difference.
speaker-0: In fact, there's a sense, it seems to me, in which we f affirm or establish the law in
speaker-1: Yeah.
speaker-0: what we're doing, because it seems to me that the law was foreshowing, foreshadowing, foretelling of these things in in Christ, in Messiah now. And every as we walk that out and as we're living it today, as we're breathing it and and speaking it, we are showing that what the law was foretelling is true. The law was right, the law was correct to foreshow and foretell us these things.
speaker-1: So we're back to a very initial point there that this whole new system that we're getting reoriented to Was found in the Old Testament. Yes. Yes, but it was found there only when you had eyes to see it For example those people who broke the Sabbath as Levites. Yes when working in the temple We're actually typifying the new system. They were Sabbath breakers. Please note. Yes, but they were not guilty How
speaker-0: Yeah.
speaker-1: do you have an innocent Sabbath breaker? That's right under the new system you do
speaker-0: And God I think probably as he developed the program of the law
speaker-1: Yes.
speaker-0: and he developed it with the thought in mind that it was going to foreshadow
speaker-1: Yeah.
speaker-0: the coming of the reality and messiah. But as God developed it, I think God was clever enough, wise enough that he built those things in to show, hey, you know, this this is not immutable. We're we're just getting from here to Point A which is
speaker-1: So God has a God's-eye view, doesn't he? We don't have that. We don't have the advantage of watching the whole of the sweep of history from before Genesis onwards. But God does. So the rock that followed them, the classic thing, the rock that followed them was Christ. Yes, but that's a type. And Paul said, we're not talking about a literal Messiah wandering around in the wilderness with them. That's right. But the rock was a typification, typing, T-Y-P in the technical sense. A type in the Bible is something that points beyond itself or beyond him or herself to something greater than itself as typology. And Paul says that in 1 Corinthians 10 there, that the rock was typikos, was a type of Jesus. And if one isn't sufficiently skilled in Bible reading, one is going to fall down flat on one's nose there, I see, that was literally Christ with a sort of a moving rock. And one is Mr. Subtly this whole typology.
speaker-0: Yeah. and are we really going to say that Jesus Christ was Lithos, he was a rock back there that was showing up here's hey look at that rock, it could be Christ. my goodness, for goodness sake. Let us get real here and realize.
speaker-1: very wooden and stupid, but we were there at one point.
speaker-0: Of course we were. That's right. I used that that very passage myself. See Christ was back there. my goodness. No. for goodness' sake. Yes. well. You know one thing I'm finding in this the the mind that is on the things of the spirit, which is Christ. And and so on is wonderful. the mind that is set on the flesh is hostile to God. But notice what he says then in verse nine. You, however, are not in the flesh, but in the spirit. In, I think, meaning under the influence of the spirit.
speaker-1: absolute within the sphere of
speaker-0: It's kinda like we talk we use the phrase in love. I'm in love. Yes. Which really means I'm under the influence of love. Right. we could be in spirit, under the influence of the spirit. We are in a A a good society where an influence
speaker-1: In good shape we say. When we teach our Greek we draw the circle and N with the dative case means in the sphere of. So you're in the Christian sphere, not outside
speaker-0: Excellent.
speaker-1: it, not beyond the limits of it. That's exactly right.
speaker-0: You, however, then are not in the flesh, but in the spirit, If in fact the Spirit of God dwells in you, and so this reminds me so much of what Paul says in Galatians five. He's going to say, you know, if you are walking in the spirit and not in the flesh, you're not under the law. This this has the law has no no effect upon us. and then he begins to talk about the works of the flesh. and and all of that. But I love what he says there. But I say, walk by the Spirit and you will not gratify the desires of the flesh.
speaker-1: Thank you.
speaker-0: For the desires of the flesh are against the Spirit, and the d desires of the Spirit are against the flesh, so these are contrary. These are opposed to each other to keep you from doing the things you want to do. But if you are led by the Spirit, you are not under the law.
speaker-1: Bye.
speaker-0: If you're in Christ, you're not under the law. You're dead to the law. Romans seven and
speaker-1: You've been released from
speaker-0: Released from the law, isn't that
speaker-1: the... The new system, brand new system, I love it. And it depends entirely on the risen Christ. This could not happen until this risen human being is energizing us now. And that's why the gospel definition is so important because you've been saying often, we've both been saying, the words of Jesus are critical here.
speaker-0: Yes.
speaker-1: The words of Jesus are the gospel of Jesus.
speaker-0: Yes indeed.
speaker-1: So if you mystify the Gospel, you're scrapping the words of Jesus. That's disaster because you're not cutting yourself from the very energy of the risen Christ. So the words of Jesus are critically important. Not just that he died and rose. That's very important too. But his actual words are the energizing, the life-giving words.
speaker-0: I love it. So he's he's telling us here, if in fact the Spirit of God dwells in you, then you are you are in Christ. Anyone who does not have the Spirit of Christ does not belong to him. How can this be? Because he is our connection with life. If if if you dwell in me and my words abide in you, with me you can do anything. Without me, you can do nothing. You know, and my this it's all John fifteen I can see in a way. It's all about this the wood being in Christ, yes.
speaker-1: Yes, this cannot be overemphasized because it's so easy to say, I believe in Christ, but not knowing what believing in Christ means. In other words, we've got to believe what Jesus believed. In order to believe in Jesus,
speaker-0: That's
speaker-1: you must believe what Jesus believed. It's the faith of Jesus, not just faith in Jesus, both things.
speaker-0: It's not just a matter of some recognition of the mind that Christ existed or that he died. That's right. Even the even that. We it's it's a bigger picture. If we say we believe in Christ, I love that, then we are saying we believe in what he believed. We believe in his God, for example. Yes. What about the technology of goodness, yes.
speaker-1: His God, absolutely. His theology. That's a strange idea for people, but that's very important.
speaker-0: Yeah. And we certainly believe in his word and the things that he taught in in Toto. That's right. And and regarding the kingdom and about our our state while we are here in preparation for that. So it's
speaker-1: We've produced Jesus, we've shrunk Him. When we put this band around our wrists saying, what would Jesus do? It's not wrong, it's fine. Let's follow His example. But I would also want to say, what would Jesus say?
speaker-0: Yes. Are we saying the kinds of things Jesus would say?
speaker-1: Unless you talk about the kingdom endlessly in preaching, you don't sound like Jesus. You sound like someone else, know, that isn't really Jesus because he was obsessed with the kingdom. we cannot go wrong if we concentrate on the words of Jesus. And I must just mention, Dan, that Luther, you see, made this mistake, I'm sure, when he says that if you never read Matthew, Mark and Luke, you're not missing much.
speaker-0: still.
speaker-1: You're missing everything actually because that's the beginning the foundation three corroborating accounts of the words the the words of Jesus the gospel that Jesus preached and Luther's saying well what really counts is that we're forgiven by grace That's very important and I see that Luther was struggling with that particular issue sure but in going to that extreme He actually abolished Christianity in some way
speaker-0: It it's it was terrible. It was a a horrible a horrible mishap, if you will, in theology. And And he put and he points us in an unfortunate direction there, you know, and I I'm certainly happy for whatever good that Luther did, but but this was not a good day for him when he sang if you miss Matthew, Mark, and Luke, you haven't missed much. That's not apparently that's not God's opinion because God went to a lot of trouble to make sure we had those books to read in our in the scriptures. And apparently it wasn't Jesus' opinion because Jesus was busy about saying and speaking those words and doing those things in Matthew, Mark, and Luke.
speaker-1: Heaven and earth will pass away but my words
speaker-0: That's right.
speaker-1: Mr. Luther, know pay attention here. My words will never pass away
speaker-0: And now we have not just in in those words, my words will never pass away, will not happen. Now we have not just something enduring, but we do have something eternal. Moses' law was enduring. Moses' law was certainly to be kept in perpetuity, but it was not eternal. No. And you know, even the prophet Jeremiah saw that it wasn't eternal. He saw that God was gonna make a new covenant. I I love
speaker-1: a brand new covenant. It's only a renewed covenant, it's both things. The two Greek words are used there, renewal and brand new, something brand new, as well as a renewal for covenant, both things.
speaker-0: Verse 10. But if Christ is in you, although the body is dead because of sin, the spirit is life because of righteousness. Verse eleven. If the spirit of him who raised Jesus from the dead dwells in you, he who raised Christ Jesus from the dead will also give life to your mortal bodies through his spirit who dwells in you. So I I love it. We're talking here about this recognition. Paul has been telling us all along the way that this is a matter of spirit rather than written code. It's a matter of spirit and and he's as we recognize he he speaks to the Corinthians about this that's ad administered by the spirit and not written and not even written in stone. Right. but this is better. This is written in the heart, it's written tablets on the yeah, and it's by a living Christ. Writing is a living thing.
speaker-1: That's exciting, it? It's not a written thing, it's an actual living person.
speaker-0: Yeah. So then isn't he saying here that if without this spirit of Christ in us, in our hearts, we're missing it. We're we're we're we don't even belong to Christ without that. There's no connection with him without the spirit. Isn't it interesting then that those who are in insistent on making th the spirit a third person
speaker-1: yeah.
speaker-0: Most often miss all of this. They're missing the whole point because they think they're talking about I I've even heard this absent Christ business about, you know, while Christ is off in heaven, the spirit is here busily taking care of his business. That's not so at all. The spirit of Christ is what we're talking about here. Him in presence, him working among his people and with him.
speaker-1: So the phrase Spirit of Jesus, know, 16 is very important. It's still the Spirit of Jesus. The Lord is the Spirit. I mean that text deserves wide press.
speaker-0: absolutely.
speaker-1: Second Corinthians 3, right? The Lord is the Spirit. Where the Spirit of the Lord is, I get it. There's freedom.
speaker-0: There is
speaker-1: So you don't want to mess with that at all and substitute another person for Jesus. We don't want that.
speaker-0: Wow. So he's going to say, If the spirit of him who raised Jesus from the dead dwells in you, that's wonderful, he who raised Christ Jesus from the dead will also give life to your mortal bodies through his spirit who dwells in them. So that I think that's a so now don't we have this recognition of what Jesus was was telling them about the Father and Himself, We will come, we will make our abode for
speaker-1: with you. Take up rest. And also in 1 Corinthians 15 it says that Jesus is now a life imparting spirit. Got it exactly here. Also give life to you. Life imparting.
speaker-0: Blah blah. Yes.
speaker-1: We don't want mess with this do we? Because we're really going to ruin the whole faith.
speaker-0: And what is so interesting about all this, this new program here, that's not what you see when you read Moses at all. It
speaker-1: No, it is.
speaker-0: isn't at all. Did you ever think about it? But John three sixteen is not found in the law of Moses. We don't have this picture at all. and this business of z an administration by the Spirit to the believer. That's not anything to do with Moses that I can find. Isn't that interesting?
speaker-1: No, it's a brand new
speaker-0: Verse 12. So then, brothers, we are debtors not to the flesh, to live according to the flesh. Verse 13, for if you live according to the flesh, you will die. But by the Spirit you put to death the deeds of the body, you will live.
speaker-1: Mm-hmm.
speaker-0: Verse 14. For all who are led by the Spirit of God are sons of God. Isn't that Galatians again? remember his statement in Galatians for if you're led by the Spirit you are not under the law. Right. I I like that in Galatians five.
speaker-1: The new concept here is sons of God, right? We're taking the argument one stage further now. What does this make us in terms of relatedness to God? We're
speaker-0: We are the
speaker-1: sons and daughters, we can say,
speaker-0: Certainly.
speaker-1: led by the Spirit of God, the mind of Jesus and the mind of God, yes.
speaker-0: I love it. Verse fifteen. For you did not receive the spirit of slavery to fall back into fear, but you have received the spirit of adoption as sons, by whom we cry abba father. Wow. But we're talking here about the spirit of sonship then. We're talking about this absolute
speaker-1: Thank
speaker-0: That is so critical because by that spirit if we are indeed now counted as sons of God. Yes. And but I I love that. Isn't that again why we must have the spirit of Christ, otherwise we're not Christ. And we're not sons of God. I like that.
speaker-1: We don't the mind of Christ, so we're far from him. We don't have the same mind as Christ, we're alienated from Christ. Very important.
speaker-0: another parallel with Galatians in the in the fourth chapter verses five and six, you know we have this where God sent when the fullness of time was come, God sent forth his son, born of a woman and born under the law, begotten perhaps. Yes. And and then to redeem them that were under the law. So isn't that a powerful statement? I love that a lot.
speaker-1: Why would you need to be redeemed?
speaker-0: W we have the law. We have Moses. What are you talking about? We gotta be re So
speaker-1: Isn't that right? That's wonderful.
speaker-0: it's a redemption of of those who were under the law.
speaker-1: buying back from the slave market.
speaker-0: So now by the Spirit we cry Abba Father. And I love that.
speaker-1: That's a very close relationship to the father, it?
speaker-0: Yes.
speaker-1: His sons and daughters on a spiritual basis.
speaker-0: Verse sixteen The Spirit Himself bears witness with our spirit that we are children of God. And if children, then we're heirs, heirs of God, and fellow heirs with Christ,
speaker-1: Yes.
speaker-0: provided we suffer with him in order that we may also be glorified with him.
speaker-1: That's wonderful. Now he takes in the whole broad suite of salvation, past, present and future. I like that. The spirit itself. The King James actually has itself there. That's quite possible. That's quite right. It doesn't matter. The spirit is very personal, but the spirit itself testifies with our mind, our spirit. We have a human spirit. There's a spirit in man, in the book of Job, I like that. The higher life is in the spirit, in the mind. And that then relates to God by this crying out of Abba, Father, which is an Aramaic word. right back into the depths of Jesus' ministry, they're remembering those Aramaic words, that being the age of time. They're
speaker-0: Jesus. Yes.
speaker-1: very precious. Abba, Father. Something like Dear Father. Perhaps not Daddy, that might be a little bit too familiar, but Dear Father would be about right.
speaker-0: And and then I I like this in verse seventeen where he's saying we are heirs of God because we're children, so that it follows we would be his heirs. But I I love this and joint heirs with the Messiah, with Christ. And I think I know that when I was given to the idea that Jesus himself was God This kind of a verse didn't mean much to me. Jesus is an heir of God. It didn't make much sense. Now I love it. I I enjoy that so much. Jesus himself as the chief one of us is God's key heir, if you will, and as the begotten Son of God.
speaker-1: clear
speaker-0: he is truly God's key heir. But we are now Paul can express our heirship as sons of God. We are heirs with
speaker-1: We're to inherit the kingdom.
speaker-0: It's our relationship with him that brings gives us this relationship with God and makes us heirs of the kingdom.
speaker-1: We're all interested in inheritance on the human level. Inheritance is a key.
speaker-0: That's right.
speaker-1: It can change our life radically if we inherit something. I just want to mention the Isaiah 9, 6 thing because unto us a child is born, unto us a son is given. That is born there can just as well be transcribed as begotten. And you've got then a little key and pointer to the virginal birth. Is begotten. It doesn't say that the father is.
speaker-0: Yes.
speaker-1: We call that in theology, in Bible study, a divine passive. So unto us a child has been begotten by God, that is. It's all in the past tense, it's a prophecy, of course, will be, but it's past tense a prophecy. But that word, beget, there is very, very key because it's the Father who's doing the begetting. It's a divine passive, will be begotten, a son will be begotten. That's very easy. That points then to the begetting of the son in the womb of his mother Mary.
speaker-0: that's excellent. Yes. A very good
speaker-1: Normally that begotten word you're told about the father. It says you know that Abraham begat children and so on. You know who the father is. But here you haven't got the name of the father. Will be begotten, a divine passive, meaning that God is the begetter there, as he's also called in 1st John 5.1. He's the begetter
speaker-0: Yes.
speaker-1: who lost that in translations. He said to be father. That's right, but he's actually the begetter. It's even clearer. Because that's the sensitive area in all theology is the origin of the sun. Isn't it? Yes. That's what the whole area in debate was about. And that's the key. What is the origin? Where are you from? You are identified by your origin. you not? Did we not argue about the president's original birth certificate and all that? Very interested in.
speaker-0: That's right.
speaker-1: And that needs to go on in terms of where is Jesus from? That's the key. Where's your origin? Yes. Well, the origin is in Matthew one eighteen, the Genesis.
speaker-0: Mm.
speaker-1: of Jesus was as follows and then the miraculous forgetting in Mary.
speaker-0: Verse 18. Paul now begins to shift and focus on this future glory that that's gonna verse eighteen, for I consider that the sufferings of this present time are not worth comparing with the glory that is to be revealed in to us. Verse 19, for the creation waits with eager longing for the revealing of the sons of God.
speaker-1: Minute moments later.
speaker-0: So it's it's like the next the next act.
speaker-1: And that's the King. The coming of the King, the Parousia, the second coming of Jesus. love that in verse 17. If indeed we suffer with him, so that we may also be glorified with him. You have 2nd Timothy 2.12. If we suffer with him, we'll reign as kings with him. So to be glorified equals to be reigning as a king. Exactly parallel.
speaker-0: Doesn't that say something too? I think it's a a a good word for all Christians to realize and new Christians and sometimes those have been around longer, there's this, I think, false notion that if you're a Christian then you're not going to have hard times, you're not gonna suffer, that'll be tough difficulties. But that's not the picture of the New Testament at all, is it? Not at all. in the New Testament Christians often endured d hardships in life. we had the the those Christians in Jerusalem that were victims of famine. There was difficulties, hardships that they encountered, indeed. But certainly they encountered persecution at times and at various levels. yeah. And they suffered with Christ, as it were. we've been we are baptized into him. Those have been baptized have been baptized into his death. We come forth to life but right now we also may suffer with him and this
speaker-1: course, that's Acts 14 22 when he warns them that through much tribulation we enter, we're destined to enter the kingdom, think. That's wonderful. As somebody said nicely, what is it? It's schooling for ruling and training for reigning. So in this laboratory, very cleverly done by God by this laboratory, there's all sorts of potential sufferings in many ways. How else would the pearl be fashioned? know, the pearl by irritation with the shell.
speaker-0: yes.
speaker-1: How will the Poles
speaker-0: Yeah, yes. Yes. So this is all about preparation. All about preparation. And and I think you know sometimes we let our minds Christians allow their minds to become focused on preparation for evil times ahead or difficult times. But I think we should let our primary focus always be we're preparing for the great things ahead, the great things are the kingdom of God.
speaker-1: It's a great text isn't it, the present time sufferings, the sufferings we go through now are not worthy to be compared. They may be very great even to the point of martyrdom, but if you're going to be raised to life for immortality, what's the comparison?
speaker-0: Wow. So and I like this translation which is saying they're not worth comparing with the
speaker-1: I like that, it's very good. Should not be compared under any circumstances with the glory. It's going to be revealed in us, not actually to us, in us, more than to us. We're not going to just watch that glory. The glory is going to be in us. We're going to
speaker-0: It's gotta reveal through us.
speaker-1: our case. Isn't that interesting?
speaker-0: Verse nineteen for the creation waits with eager longing for the revealing of the sons of God. Verse twenty. For the creation was subject to futility, not willingly, but because of him who subjected it in hope.
speaker-1: Yes.
speaker-0: Verse twenty one that the creation itself will be set free from its bondage to corruption, and obtain the freedom of the glory of the children of God. More freedom, more glory. Isn't this wonderful? What's coming is the ultimate
speaker-1: Impressible hope here. Nothing will keep Paul down. He's about to have his head chopped off in a few years by Nero. But he's full of joy, full of bounce and energy. This irrepressible hope.
speaker-0: And he's not spending all of his time stealing himself, preparing himself for the moment of his demise. He he's he's preparing himself by thinking ahead to that that when the the curtains come back and the sons of God are revealed.
speaker-1: It's this Georgia phrase, you know, ain't seen nothing yet, isn't it? How can we do better than that lovely phrase in Georgia? You ain't seen nothing yet, you know? There are lot of wonderful things in this age now, even, wonderful people, wonderful sights.
speaker-0: Verse twenty two for we know that the whole creation has been groaning together in the pains of childbirth until now.
speaker-1: Yes.
speaker-0: Verse twenty three, and not only the creation, but we ourselves who have the first fruits of the Spirit grown inwardly. as we wait eagerly for adoption as sons. Yes. The redemption of our bodies. So we the the whole creation is in this in this the throes of this struggle needing r redemption, needing to be made free. Yes. But and not only the all creation, even we ourselves are s are in that state now also, longing for this.
speaker-1: Very Jewish image, birth pangs, the Chavle HaMashiach, the rabbis call it, you know, just like a mother bearing a baby goes through the suffering. Exactly that image, so it's a very, very permanent sort of image that for us. And the adoption word is introduced in the text there. You know, it's not seriously, I'm not going to make a huge pond out of that, but simply sonship is actually what the Greek says. Adoption seems to me to put us as a slightly distant
speaker-0: Mm, mm.
speaker-1: to God I like some shit better.
speaker-0: And aren't we seeing all of this by stages, so to speak? yeah. we are living we're alive now with Christ, we've been dead with Christ, buried with him, raised to new life with him, and yet the new life that we are we're approaching is not fully here the in the full e experience that that we will have.
speaker-1: Down payment of the spirit of course, know, the famous Arabic which is a commercial word in the first century.
speaker-0: Yeah.
speaker-1: it's a down payment. You put a down payment on a house. You've got the spirit, but not in full measure yet until you are glorified. So I love 24, in hope we've been saved. We have been saved, but not really yet, right? So we use the text all the time in Romans. Salvation is now closer to us than when we first...
speaker-0: Then believed the internet.
speaker-1: The system out there tends to do the opposite. When I got saved, when I got saved, I was saved when I was six. No, the emphasis in the new is actually on the process and also the culmination in the future.
speaker-0: So it's a recognition that both are true, but if the the emphasis of the scriptures and the focus of the scriptures is you ain't seen nothing yet. That's right. That's right. That's
speaker-1: Isn't that great? So you've been saved in hope of being saved. I
speaker-0: Yeah, three I love.
speaker-1: can have that. That's the grasping of the totality, the Hebrew way of thinking, the whole broad sweep, know, the process. So we want to say, was it? You tell me exactly where it all works. No, just think broad here. You're saved in hope of being saved.
speaker-0: Now hope that isn't seen is hope. Mm-hmm. For who hopes for what he sees? If you've already it's in your grasp here, you've got it hoping. You're not still hoping. We're still hoping. So there is this by stages we're coming to all of this, I think.
speaker-1: It is better.
speaker-0: Verse twenty five. Yes. But if we hope for what we do not see, we wait for it with patience. We know it's still there, but we're hoping and and holding to it.
speaker-1: Yes,
speaker-0: 26. Likewise the Spirit helps us in our weakness. back to this problem of in ourselves and without Christ there's this terrible weakness. But now Christ in spirit helps us. I I like that. He is our mediator, he is our helper, the advocate, the paraclate does. So so here we he is, he's helping us in that weakness.
speaker-1: Yeah.
speaker-0: For and and that's something that Paul didn't have the advantage of under the law. and now that we're dead to the law, we're free to be married to Christ. Right. For and now in Christ we have this this wonderful help of the Spirit. But the sp So I love this, for we do not know what to pray for as we ought. I think perhaps this is a an example of how the Spirit works, but the one that comes to his mind. Yes. we do not know what to pray for as we ought. But the Spirit Himself intercedes for us with groanings too deep for words. And I think perhaps this could be the Spirit of Christ
speaker-1: yeah.
speaker-0: at work in us, helping us to know how we ought to to pray and interceding for us. He's our intercessor. Yes.
speaker-1: They're groans rather than not offenses. They're not words exactly but it's a groaning a sense of yearning.
speaker-0: In the in the in that yearning kind of thing.
speaker-1: Absolutely. Yes. I like the word help there because we're all crying out for help. Recently we talked about the lady, the Canaanite lady, you know, who was turned down. She's not a Jew. But she persisted and she says, Lord help me with my demon influenced child. Isn't that a marvelous example of crying out, yeah but the crumbs get fed to the lady too. I thought that was wonderful.
speaker-0: So this is the the spirit himself, this is Christ himself, I think, in us
speaker-1: Excellent.
speaker-0: b expressing expressing a yearning that's too deep for our words.
speaker-1: That's exactly right. think so. A longing and a yearning. Yes.
speaker-0: Verse twenty seven, and he who searches hearts knows what is the mind of the spirit, because the spirit intercedes for the spirit for the saints according to the will of God. Yes. So this is wonderful. So I think then maybe in this setting the the one who searches hearts is God who knows the mind of the spirit working in us and yearning, and God recognizes that our our yearnings and our groanings if we will, these things are of of Christ bringing us back to Him. which is also why I think that by the Spirit, by that same Spirit of Christ we're able to to cry have a Father. Yes. it's all the Spirit of Christ in us bringing these things.
speaker-1: As Paul said earlier, united with our spirit, there's a sort of emerging then of our natural human spirit with the spirit of Jesus and the spirit of God. Indistinguishable by the way, nobody distinguishes really between the spirit of God and
speaker-0: Jesus generally speaking, you're just it's this spirit. Yeah.
speaker-1: just the spirit coming from heaven to earth.
speaker-0: And and again, isn't it just tragic how the when the when they invented the idea that the Spirit of God is another person from the Father and from Christ. That's terrible. It's tragic. Because then you're reading all this thinking, it's this third person doing all that. It's not. It's Christ doing these things in us in spirit.
speaker-1: So we always add then the Spirit is never worshipped. Nobody worships the Spirit. Nobody prays to the Spirit, ever. And the Spirit never sends any greetings. So
speaker-0: Yeah, I
speaker-1: one large group of Christians said, well, the Spirit is a shy third person, doesn't do much.
speaker-0: Yeah.
speaker-1: I think they were struggling with the lack of evidence. And of course, at Nicaea in 325 AD, they were uncertain what the Spirit was. They simply believed in the Spirit. Even 325 years later,
speaker-0: That's right. Way down the line. And they still
speaker-1: I'm so glad that they were honest enough to say, not sure, let's not define this.
speaker-0: So it it took a a lot of a n a bunch of, if you will, Gentile folks coming into this to bring us to the idea of the spirit of the third person. Something the Jewish mind, the old testament mindset and the new testament mindset never would have
speaker-1: don't think we need a third person to account for the data. The data we're given on Spirit, you don't need a third person. Granted, there is a kind of personification. Treat it as though it's a person. You could go in that direction, but the sweep of the data doesn't give you a third person. need that. Absolutely.
speaker-0: much better the s the scriptures are much better understood realizing that the spirit right as in these cases is Christ.
speaker-1: the operational presence and power of God. would say very personal, but not clearly a third person. And
speaker-0: No doubt.
speaker-1: I got that phrase from the Bible dictionary by the way, most of this is in the dictionary, the operational presence and power of God or Jesus, indiscriminate doesn't matter, operating in His world in various ways to help us.
speaker-0: I like it. There's that help that we didn't have under the law. Yes. Wow. That's right. That it's wonderful. Verse twenty eight, and we know that for those who love God all things work together for good, for those who are called according to his purpose. Okay. Verse twenty nine, for those whom he foreknew he also predestined to be conformed to the image of his son, in order that he might be the firstborn among many brothers.
speaker-1: That's Jesus as the firstborn among them, you were saying. The Co-heirs idea, isn't it? We're brothers and sisters of Christ. Co-heirs with him.
speaker-0: So the objective here is that the Christian would become conform to the image, the character, if you will, of
speaker-1: Awesome.
speaker-0: the Son of God. Yes. The image of That's
speaker-1: He's the preeminent one, he's first one of New Crime.
speaker-0: right. The new the new group.
speaker-1: the only true really in...
speaker-0: Isn't that so that's how radically different this new arrangement is. It's so radically different that Christ is said to be here the the preeminent one in a new creation. So what's forming up here is a new creation in God of those who are given this unending Aeonian life in Christ. How new is that
speaker-1: Yes, what's being formed, what's forming up as you said, what's being shaped. This is the Greek word morphy, know, we're being conformed, conformed to the image of Jesus as a brother and sister.
speaker-0: So this is wonderful. So i the
speaker-1: triumph
speaker-0: I I love this and he's going to say that he might be the firstborn among many brothers. That again is reminiscent in my mind of Deuteronomy eighteen. He from among his own brothers, God's going to raise up yes this one who will be a prophet. I I love that.
speaker-1: Yes, and in Hebrews, Jesus is singing to God along with the brothers. It doesn't suggest that he is God, the
speaker-0: With the brother. That's that's right. That's right.
speaker-1: Son of God singing to
speaker-0: I love that. And that's that's wonderful. So so and he is then truly one of us. Back to Paul's emphasis through the the fifth chapter. And it w this man, this one man, this man, he is the one who set things aright. the and Adam was really a foreshadowing of him. Absolutely. Isn't that just like Moses was a foreshadowing. The law was a foreshadowing of these things now.
speaker-1: The tragedy would be, Dan, surely, that you're missing the whole point of the whole Bible if you're going to say he's really 100 % God. The whole point is that he's the model of what a man ought to be before God. And
speaker-0: Yeah, yeah.
speaker-1: you begin to say he's 100 % God anyway. You've really destroyed the whole picture. Not
speaker-0: Yes, yes, for goodness sakes.
speaker-1: to mention that you've created a complexity of vocabulary and distinctions and philosophical languages, nightmare, brain-breaking exercise of people. Let's stay with the man, Messiah, Jesus.
speaker-0: And and of course this this business about those that he foreknew, he predestined, this sort of thing. not in the sense that is often bandered about by those who say God just arbitrarily chose for whatever reason. we'll talk more about that I guess in the ninth chapter.
speaker-1: I would think so.
speaker-0: but that's not in that sense.
speaker-1: This is one side of the coin. There is a synergism of working together in some way between God and those he calls and chooses.
speaker-0: Verse thirty one What then shall we say to these things? If God is for us, who can be against us? He who did not spare his own son but gave him up for us all, how will he not also with him graciously give us all things? I love that. Well
speaker-1: Huge language, isn't it?
speaker-0: this is tremendous and again it's not It's not Law of Moses language. No. This is this new arrangement. New kingdom of God language. Yes. Yeah at all things. He'll graciously
speaker-1: If you've got God on your team, it's going be hard to get beaten.
speaker-0: That's right. If if you were choosing up teams, God would probably be the very first one you'd want to choose.
speaker-1: on my team. That's what he says, God is for you, he's on your team. Relax, he's going to win.
speaker-0: Yeah. I like that too. one comment I think sometimes about all things work together for good. We were talking about that according to his purpose. I think in verse twenty eight, I think sometimes we get caught up a little bit. I think the sense of it may be better and I think some translations will carry it. God works in all things to the good, for our good. No matter what the what comes. It's not that God wants evil to come to us. It's not that God wants difficulties to come to us. in fact Jesus is saying, pray that you know, that you would not enter into temptation. So that's not good. We don't want that. So it's not that God brings everything into our lives that comes, but He does work in all things to our good. No matter what it
speaker-1: It's an important distinction, especially in today's news, know, with the tragedy in Connecticut, where rather glibly people say, well, it was time for God to call these people home. I strongly object to that. God works in whatever tragic circumstances may come your way to help you through that, but not that He designed that to call these children to heaven. That isn't right.
speaker-0: Surely, surely. No. Hey, no.
speaker-1: It's actually rather an insult to God.
speaker-0: I agree with you completely and I think it's a total misstatement. So sometimes I know growing up I used to always hear that g you know God is essentially bringing everything about n that comes no matter and no matter what evil comes, no what terrible things God did that. and but I think the sense of it is not that. God doesn't want everything to happen that happens, but he does work in all
speaker-1: That's right. That's right.
speaker-0: No matter what happens.
speaker-1: permissive will allows all sorts of time and chances, as Pesciansi said. Otherwise, we're faced with the fact that, know, praise God, those people got murdered because God wanted them. That's insufferable Calvinism for me.
speaker-0: It's very unfortunate. a and very terrible way to be thinking about God. Horrible. So everything that evil or horrible, terrible happens, you say, Well, God did it you know you know I heard one poor fellow on television one time saying, if I had a wreck out here someone said, What would you say? And I he would say, I would just say, Well look what God has done. He's caused a wreck. Well, I'm sorry. I th I think that's a a wreck in in theology too. And a terrible misappropriation toward God. And a a terrible way to be thinking about God. It's not I'm wrong. But he does work. He loves us and he works in all things for our good and
speaker-1: and bring those people through that tragedy if they people of faith, but
speaker-0: Surely to goodness.
speaker-1: not to diminish in any way the suffering that they're going through.
speaker-0: Verse 33. Who shall bring any charge against God's elect? It is God who justifies. Who is to condemn? Christ Jesus is the one who died. More than that, who was raised, who is at the right hand of God, huh? Who indeed is interceding for us. Wow. So we get that sense of the spirit interceding. I think that is Christ in us working among his people.
speaker-1: Exactly right.
speaker-0: And So then verse thirty five, who shall separate it from the love of Christ? Shall tribulation or distress or persecution or famine or nakedness or danger or sword? As it is written, For your sake we are being killed all the day long. We are regarded as sheep to be slaughtered. my goodness. Very very
speaker-1: half-language.
speaker-0: awful Difficult thing. Verse 37. No, in all of these things, we are more than conquerors through him who loved us through Christ. Back to that thought, you know. Who will deliver me? Well, thank God for Christ Jesus, because that's our deliverance and that's our hope that he mentioned earlier. Verse 38. For I am sure that neither death nor life Nor angels, nor rulers, nor things present, nor things to come, nor powers, nor height, nor depth, nor anything else in all creation will be able to separate us from the love of God in Christ Jesus our Lord. Wonderful.
speaker-1: Yeah. Wonderful summary.
speaker-0: What a what consolation to realize that that there is nothing that can come at us and come upon us or come against us.
speaker-1: If God is on our side. Yeah,
speaker-0: And if God is on our side, that's it.
speaker-1: I like your point about verse 34 that Christ is the right hand interceding for us because we have the Spirit interceding in verse 27. Yes, yes. And here it's Christ interceding. Well, we've got two intercessors. I don't think we need two paracletes really.
speaker-0: That's right.
speaker-1: Let's just say that Jesus is the paracletos as 1 John 2. identified as the paracletos unless you want to posit two paracletos, you know.
speaker-0: Well and which makes sense when you think about it because i it's the spirit of Christ in us that allows us to be able to say Abba Father. it is the Son of God, Jesus Christ, working in us that is allows us to be able to say Abba Father and is is th the Christ, i the Spirit of Christ that without which we don't belong to Christ and surely then we have no station or place with God. So I I it's very
speaker-1: Very important, let's mention that text in John 7, the end of John 7, where says there's no spirit yet.
speaker-0: Yeah, yes.
speaker-1: Translations from the Slyther say the spirit wasn't given or something. doesn't say that. He says there was no spirit. That
speaker-0: Wasn't it?
speaker-1: clearly doesn't mean there wasn't a spirit. The spirit had been very active in Zechariah's songs, Elizabeth's songs, but it means there's no spirit yet from the risen Christ.
speaker-0: This spirit of Christ in us working in it had not done
speaker-1: not happen. Jesus was full of spirit and He imparted spirit even on earth. We need to clarify that because all sorts of nonsense is made out of spirit there. There's no spirit until Acts. no, no.
speaker-0: That's
speaker-1: Plenty of spirit, but it came in a new way.
speaker-0: This new business of the spirit coming to the people in Christ Jesus, Messiah coming to the people. Yeah. I love it. It's one so when you begin to realize that the spirit of God in this sense is Christ working in his people. Yeah, it just opens everything up to me. I think suddenly it
speaker-1: Well you're the one who brought the text again, Aeneas, you know, Aeneas comes along and says Jesus Christ is healing you in Acts there.
speaker-0: Yes, Allah's watch.
speaker-1: think we underestimate that, especially Unitarian people do, the Lord is generally the Lord Jesus, not a fixed rule, but Yahweh without the out-ult, just Lord is Kiryos, the Lord God, but the Lord is very often the Lord Jesus
speaker-0: Yes.
speaker-1: and he's extremely active. in the New Testament picture and we must not diminish that otherwise we're going back to Moses.
speaker-0: Yes.
speaker-1: We're acting as though the Father is it and there is no Jesus. My goodness that's a disastrous error.
speaker-0: That's right. That's right. it's so again in verse thirty-seven he's saying, No in all these things we're more than conquerors through him who loved us. Verse thirty-eight, for I am sure that neither death nor life nor angels nor rulers nor things present nor things to come nor powers Nor height, nor depth, nor anything else in all creation will be able to separate us from the love of God in Christ Jesus our Lord. That's wonderful. And again, I I I think as marvelous and incredible statements as these are, they should not be taken without regard to John fifteen, where that Christ says, You abide in me, remain in me, and I in you, and then you will ask what you will, it will be done. And so on and so forth. But if one does not remain in me or abide in me with the words. Yeah. So nothing is gonna be able to take you away from Christ.
speaker-1: provided that
speaker-0: That you as long as you remain in Christ, you've got it. So I
speaker-1: That's a tremendous say. I'm glad you're really impressed. I'm terribly impressed with that thing in John 15.
speaker-0: is, bro.
speaker-1: If my words abide in you, you can ask what you will.
speaker-0: If we want, if we think that we might find a a greater work of God in our day, maybe we should keep in mind those words in John fifteen. If if you abide in me. That's total relationship. And my words abide in you. The words of Christ have been so derailed, so yes I don't it would be very difficult to say, yes, we're abiding in the words of Christ. We barely ha understand the word we're on the fringes, I think, in Christianity so much. If we could ever really get to the state that we're truly abiding in Christ, He's abiding in us. We are are walking according to His words are are in us,
speaker-1: Everything
speaker-0: which would mean we're walking according to His words. It's not just hearing them, but doing them that matters.
speaker-1: Why don't some of those verses become the John 3.16? The John 3.16 is beautiful, we know that. But it tends to be to the isolation of everything else. But you've got synonymous parallelism, as they call it, where you say the same thing twice, the one statement reinforces the other, in other words. So to abide in Christ is meaningless if his words are not abiding in you. And that takes us to his gospel of the kingdom. If you're not obsessed with the gospel of the kingdom, you don't sound like Jesus.
