Beyond Introspection
with Pen Novus and Harvey LaFord
Episode 2 – INTRO to Therapy
[0:09] Pen: Welcome to the Beyond Introspection podcast. I am Pen.
[0:12] Harvey: And I’m Harvey.
[0:13] Pen: And this is a podcast where we talk about mental health, neurodivergence, and how it impacts
literally every aspect of our lives.
[0:19] Harvey: Every single one.
[0:21] Pen: All of them. All of them. Sort of not—non-optionally. Uh—this week we are going to talk
about therapy.
[0:28] Harvey: We are. We are. And I—we were comparing notes, I guess, so to speak, prior to this
podcast. And—well, this episode, I mean.
[0:36] Pen: [Pen laughs] That’s generous.
[0:38] Harvey: Uh, yeah, comparing notes in the sense that I have a full page of Google Doc notes, and
Pen has approximately how many?
[0:43] Pen: Uh, I had to pull up the Google Doc where we have written down the introduction because
it’s my job to read that, and those are all of the notes I have.
[0:53] Harvey: I respect you.
[0:54] Pen: Yeah. It’s because we’re talking about therapy and Harvey has, like, psych major things to
talk about.
[1:03] Harvey: I have the psychology facts.
[1:05] Pen: And I am just going to be talking about my own experiences, and I know what those are. I
just realized I have ADHD and maybe should have taken notes.
[1:15] Harvey: Well, that’s okay. I understand and respect you.
[1:18] Pen: You know what? This is going to be—this is actually going to be—this is—this is better
because it’s more realistic. [Harvey laughs.] Because—
[1:24] Harvey: That’s true.
[1:27] Pen: This is what ADHD is like, everyone. You don’t take notes, and then you think, “Oh.”
[1:31] Harvey: Ha ha. Uh-oh.
[1:32] Pen: “Was this foolish? My grades suggest, uh, that it’s not as foolish as you might think.
[1:38] Harvey: But, yeah. Since you have all of the, you know, personal experiences in your brain, do
you want to—do you want to talk a little bit about your experiences with therapy?
[1:47] Pen: Uh, I can certainly do, like, an overview type thing.
[1:50] Harvey: Although, I think what could be useful, um, I would love to talk about what we mean
when we say therapy.
[1:57] Pen: That’s not something I would have considered talking about. [Harvey laughs.] So, yeah, let’s
—let’s do that.
[2:02] Harvey: Yeah, so, therapy is something that has a very specific meaning, um, when you are—you
know, when you’re studying psychology. And, you know, so, therapy is essentially shorthand for
psychotherapy. And, you know, psychotherapy is exactly what it sounds like. It, you know, it's like any
kind of therapy like physical therapy, things along those lines, except it is for the mind. That is what the
"psycho" is for.
[2:26] Pen: That is-- you know, I never think about it being short for that, but that does actually make a
lot of sense.
[2:33] Harvey: Yeah. It is--it is something you don't think about, because I feel like the word "therapy" is
so synonymous with mental health that I--I think it's really important to talk about therapy is not just a
mental health-specific thing, it's broad for trying to improve the state of something, more or less. When
you do physical therapy, you're trying to improve someone's physical state, when you're doing
psychotherapy, you're trying to improve someone's mental state, you know?
[2:58] Pen: That's--yeah, yeah, it is really like when we use therapy, sort of colloquially, it's consistently
like, the one that is short for psychotherapy, which, it's--it's really interesting for me to think about that
because I was in physical therapy last year for a time.
[3:15] Harvey: No, I was thinking about that when I was writing out these notes, and I was like, "Oh,
Pen--Pen will--Pen will understand this."
[3:20] Pen: I understand it. Have I thought about it? No.
[3:23] Harvey: Thinking is different from understanding.
[3:26] Pen: That's--hey, that's--that's a quote right there, Harvey. That's a quotable moment.
[3:31] Harvey: Wow. Epic Harvey quotable moments. So, you know, the other thing I'd love to talk
about, just as we're--so when we're talking about therapy, we mean psychotherapy, and when we mean
psychotherapy, we're talking about techniques to change the way that someone thinks or behaves, or both
in most cases. So, there are three main goals of psychotherapy, and those generally are: One, to identify
and challenge distorted thinking patterns, which are present in most neurodivergences or mental illnesses.
Two, to identify specific life problems that contribute to one's struggling, so trying to mitigate the effects
of the environment as much as you can. And three, and I think this one is the most important, to develop
options for the future and set realistic goals. [Pen laughs.] Realistic does not necessarily mean "by the
time you leave this therapy session, you are going to be cured of anxiety." No, it's more like a, "Okay,
well. why don't you go home and talk to your roommate about how you're feeling bad, and what you
would like them to do differently?" You know? Something like that.
[4:35] Pen: I feel like when people talk about therapy, or when we think about therapy, we're thinking
about those first two much more than the--the realistic goal-setting.
[4:44] Harvey: Yeah, I think so, too.
[4:46] Pen: When people think about therapy, I think there is--there is a tendency to focus on, like, you're
going to be asked to expose all of these things, or there is going to be, like, judgement calls made. Uh,
which is a really--there is--that is really unfortunate that there is that, um, I mean there's the stigma
attached to it, but like, if we start talking about stigma, like, that's--part of the point of this podcast is to,
uh, reduce some of that.
[5:12] Harvey: Dispel, yeah.
[5:13] Pen: Yeah, yeah. Uh, but there's--there's that idea that, like, you're going to have to expose all of
your deep secrets, or, like, your therapist is going to look at your whole life and be like, "Well, you're
doing all of this wrong," and this part of you, like, "What did your father do [Harvey: That's
psychoanalysis.] that made it so you're afraid to go to the grocery store?" Yeah, yeah! Yeah, I feel like
when people talk about therapy or think about it, they're thinking about the, like, psychoanalytical part of,
like, that could be a bigger part of it, but in my experience, like, my therapists haven't been terribly
psychoanalytical.
[5:47] Harvey: And actually, this is a great segue into talking about the different kinds of therapy, if you
don't mind me going into that a little bit.
[5:53] Pen: You should--you--you--you folks should see, uh, the excited look in Harvey's eyes right now.
[Harvey laughs.] Just a little glint that's like, "Let me infodump about my major!"
[6:01] Harvey: Right now. So, some fun facts about therapy. Okay, I use the term "fun" loosely, um, so,
actually, a very important fact to consider is that around 43% of people who are diagnosed with mental
illness receive treatment. Less than half of people who are diagnosed.
[6:20] Pen: That specific--treatment in general? Or, like, therapeutic treatment?
06:25 Eh, it was more or less treatment in general, so this could include just medication and could include
just therapy, but either way, the majority of people who are diagnosed with some kind of mental illness
aren't receiving treatment. 57% aren't.
[6:40] Pen: You know, the thing that's really troubling about that is that you have to be seen by some sort
of professional in order to be diagnosed.
[6:48] Harvey: Right? That's the thing that caught me, too.
[6:49] Pen: And then the follow-up is, like, 'cause I know that you can go to, like, a doctor's office, and,
like, they ask the questions now of like, "Have you, you know, felt more down?" or like, "Have you had
more difficulty enjoying things?" Um, I've been to the doctor a lot. And, so, answering these questions--
[7:06] Harvey: Can't relate.
[7:07] Pen: Ah! Well, yeah, that's--you know? That's good. That's probably--that's probably good. Um--
[7:11] Harvey: It's because I'm afraid of the doctor, but--
[7:13] Pen: That's not good.
[7:14] Harvey: Right.
[7:14] Pen: I'm glad that you're not going for the reasons I am, which is to say, joint problems.
[7:18] Harvey: Yes.
[7:21] Pen: But, like, they ask those questions, and I presume, like, they have planned follow-ups for
them. And, like, I know that, like, the nurse that I go to for oof-ouch-body-hurt isn't going to be able to be
able to treat me in nearly the same capacity as, like, my psychiatrist, but presumably there is a follow-
through there that could exist.
[7:44] Harvey: There's supposed to be. And--and that is something that is important to the psychological
community when we diagnose someone, or even when we don't. Even when we have somebody who's
just experiencing a minor hardship, or somebody who is sub-threshold, follow-through is important, and--
and that's something that we do focus on, but, you know, realistically it doesn't always happen, either
through patient non-compliance, or a lack of resources, or, you know, a myriad of other reasons.
[8:10] Pen: Yeah.
[8:11] Harvey: So, in terms of the kinds of therapy, in terms of psychotherapy there are over 400 kinds.
[8:18] Pen: We're not going to list all of them I'm guessing.
[8:20] Harvey: No, I don't know all of them. Oh, my goodness.
[8:25] Pen: There's a class that's just "memorize them."
[8:26] Harvey: Oh, God, that would be horrible.
[8:28] Pen: That's high school.
[8:30] Harvey: Well, yeah. But, you know, the thing about the different kinds of therapy is that some of
them are variations on a theme. Other than--others are combinations of different therapeutic types, such as
Cognitive-Behavioral.
[8:44] Pen: Oh, I know--I know! I know CBT!
[8:46] Harvey: You do know CBT. It's--you know, it's the most common type of therapy, uh, of
psychotherapy. When I say "therapy" I mean psychotherapy, moving forward. Cognitive therapy--or,
Cognitive-Behavioral Therapy is a combination of Cognitive and Behavioral Therapy, which can be
separate--which can be separate therapies, and they often are. Um, but many psychologists and
psychiatrists use CBT, and, you know, this focuses on changing some unhealthy cognitions--cognitions
being a fancy word for thoughts.
[9:19] Pen: They had that--they had the glint in their eyes again.
[9:22] Harvey: Um, you know, unhealthy behaviors, and, you know--some of that has to do with--
cognition influences behavior, of course, the way that you think is going to change the way that you
behave. But, also, the way that you behave changes the way that you think. Self-fulfilling prophecies and
whatnot.
[9:37] Pen: Ouroboros. The snake eats its own tail.
[9:40] Harvey: Ah. What a fun--
[9:42] Pen: Yeah, yeah. Yeah, you--do you--do you know--have I just said something that made
absolutely no sense to you, Harvey?
[9:47] Harvey: Yes.
[9:48] Pen: Okay, so an Ouroboros, it's like, uh, I believe it originates in Greek mythology. I'm glad that
you run the Twitter, and not me, because I'm sure--Oh, God--um, but, an Ouroboros, it's like, it's literally,
like, a snake eating its own tail.
[10:02] Harvey: I see.
[10:03] Pen: Um, and it's supposed to be a symbol of, like, uh, a lot of like big, existential things. But,
you know, self-fulfilling kind of thing.
[10:09] Harvey: Sure, sure. So, you know, Cognitive-Behavioral Therapy, you know, is--is--is really--it's
kind of the golden standard for psychotherapy for the time being. And, you know, it's really useful for
things--uh, the--the behavior side of things especially are really useful for things like therapy for PTSD
and phobias, that's what the behavioral side is for. Um, and then--while Behavioral Therapy also works
for things like depression and anxiety, it's also, you know, really, you know, Cognitive Therapy, in some
ways, is better-suited toward anxiety and depression.
[10:40] Pen: Yeah, that makes sense.
[10:41] Harvey: Sure, and then, you know, there's a bunch of different kinds, and I'll just list them off
really quickly, if you don't mind.
[10:47] Pen: Different kinds of--
[10:48] Harvey: Therapy. Like--
[10:49] Pen: But not--but not all four hundred.
[10:51] Harvey: No, no, like five.
[10:53] Pen: Like five. Yeah, five. Five is good.
[10:56] Harvey: So, another one, Interpersonal Therapy focuses on reframing and adjusting unhealthy
relationships that might contribute to mental health issues.
[11:03] Pen: This is sensible.
[11:04] Harvey: Very common in Family Therapy and Couples' Therapy, things like that.
Psychodynamic, which is based on Psychoanalysis--Psychoanalysis is the old name for Freud's principles.
Freudian principles.
[11:17] Pen: The couch.
[11:18] Harvey: Yeah. So, Psychodynamic is similar, it focuses on introspection, looking at childhood
trauma, things in the past, subconscious influences at work. So, actually, Psychodynamic Therapies are
very, very influential today, just not in the way that they were with Freud, because Freud is--
[11:38] Pen: Wrong.
[11:39] Harvey: --not great. I have many choice words for Freud. And, there's also--
[11:44] Pen: And we decided that this podcast wasn't going to have swear words in it, so I think a lot of
the words for Freud cannot be said.
[11:50] Harvey: A lot of the words I have for Freud are things that I can't say. Um, there's also
Humanistic Therapy, things that are mostly focused on the client, trying to make sure that that person is,
um, you know, as comfortable as possible. A lot of the time, this--you know, one of the really cool things
about Humanistic Therapy is that many of those perspectives reject the idea that therapists are the
authority on a patient's inner state.
[12:16] Pen: That's good. That's--that's a good--that should not be an underlying assumption that you go
into therapy with.
[12:27] Harvey: No, but, unfortunately, in some cases, it is.
[12:30] Pen: Cough, cough, Freud.
[12:32] Harvey: So those are the most common, and then there are some less common ones as well, one
of them being Dialectical Behavior Therapy, which is one that you may not have heard of before.
[12:42] Pen: I have heard of that.
[12:43] Harvey: Yeah, it's--it's a more unusual one, but it's, in particular, this one is based on more
behavioral principles, and it's, um, it's mostly for--
[12:52] Pen: Borderline?
[12:54] Harvey: Borderline Personality Disorder, and also just in general hard-to-treat patients.
[12:58] Pen: Yeah, okay, this is why I've heard of it.
[12:59] Harvey: Generally, this means personality disorders, because personality disorders are quite
difficult to treat for reasons that we can get into another time. But, yeah, those are some types of therapy
that I think are neat to note, because I think a lot of the time, not only when we say therapy, we conflate it
with psychotherapy, but I think we also think CBT immediately.
[13:20] Pen: Yeah, I think we imagine a very specific, like, all therapy means this one thing.
[13:26] Harvey: And that's just not true. There are many different ways that therapy can exist, and not
every therapeutic technique is going to work with every individual.
[13:34] Pen: No, no, like it--it's good that there's so many metrics of therapy. Like, it's good that it has
evolved from, like, classic Freud couch or whatever, and it's--it's very good that there are different options
for different patients. Like, if you have a personality disorder, and you need something that is more
focused on, like, behavioral things, versus if you have, like, anxiety and depression, that is much more
cognitive-based. There are things you can learn, ways you can change your own thinking that just aren't
going to work in some other cases.
[14:03] Harvey: Yeah, yeah, no, totally. But, Pen, I've been talking for so long. Do you want to talk
about your experiences with therapy?
[14:10] Pen: You know, there's actually a really interesting segue here.
[14:12] Harvey: Okay.
[14:12] Pen: Uh, my first therapist, who, I've talked to you about him, uh, a few times. He was great.
[14:18] Harvey: Was this the one that said "tummy?"
[14:21] Pen: Thank you, Harvey, for-- [Harvey laughs] yes, yes. He said "tummy" once.
[14:25] Harvey: You're going to have to provide the context behind that one.
[14:27] Pen: I will. I'll get to that point. Uh, a broad kind of overview of my experiences in therapy, I
have been in and out, but primarily in therapy, for about seven years. I could do the math, I'm not going
to. Uh, but, I believe when I got into therapy, I was about fifteen, and it was because I had noticed the
symptoms of depression in myself, and like, this was, uh, I mentioned in our first episode that I had sort
of put myself into therapy, it was something that I was motivated to do because I noticed how I was
feeling, and that it was bad. Uh, and I'm glad I did something about that.
[15:04] Harvey: Sure, of course.
[15:04] Pen: But, I got--I got really, really lucky with my first therapist. He was older, it was actually--he
retired part of the way through me getting therapy at this particular place.
[15:18] Harvey: I see.
[15:19] Pen: Uh, which was unfortunate, because he was great.
[15:20] Harvey: Yeah.
[15:21] Pen: His name was Charlie, and he was, like, kind of like a cool--not like a cool grandpa, 'cause
he wasn't quite that old, but, you know, like a cool, older relative sort of guy. He was really, like, friendly,
and very, very engaging. And, I'm going to--I'll tell the tummy story now. [Harvey laughs.] This was--
and this was not--this was actually, like, a very general kind of therapy thing. Like, we tried meditation
once, which did not work for me, meditation. Particularly the kind that is kind of typical.
[15:53] Harvey: Empty your mind.
[15:54] Pen: Yeah, the empty your mind, like "Just focus on your breathing," and--
[15:57] Harvey: It's like, you have ADHD.
[15:58] Pen: I didn't know I had ADHD when I was 15, but like, Charlie sits me down on, like, a cushion
and he's like, "Let's try some therapy things," like, and he, like, put his hand on his stomach and he was
like, "Breathe through your tummy," and I remember thinking, like, "Did you just say 'tummy' to me?
Hey, old man, did you just say tummy?" 'Cause I was fifteen, and, um, I associated, like, "tummy" with
more childish things, so I was like, "What the--hey, did you just say 'tummy,' old man?" I did not say this
to him.
[16:24] Harvey: No, no, that would be mean.
[16:24] Pen: But, it--it just stuck out to me so much. Uh, but yeah, the--the meditation wicked didn't
work, 'cause I was sitting there, being fifteen and having undiagnosed ADHD like, "I can't empty my
mind, I don't know what to tell you. I have so many--I have so many thoughts in it!" But, but, the segue
from different kinds of therapy into Charlie is one of the things I really, really loved about Charlie was
that he listened to me. Uh, when--whether I wanted to talk about something that was lighter, or if I wanted
to talk about something that was heavier. Uh, I have been kind of an existential person for a long time,
even when I was fifteen.
[17:04] Harvey: Yeah, that's the mood.
[17:04] Pen: Yeah, that's--yeah. I had an existential crisis the summer between fifteen and sixteen, I
think.
[17:12] Harvey: Oh, my God.
[17:12] Pen: Uh, in part, uh, sort of sparked by, well, it's--it--okay, this is going to sound like it was
Charlie's fault, it's not Charlie's fault. But he did give me two books, because I talked about, um, I don't
know, like, I must have talked about death at some point. I say this just because, like, one of the books
was called On Death and Dying.
[17:33] Harvey: Right.
[17:33] Pen: Um, I never--I never actually read that one, 'cause that was the second one he gave me. But,
the first one he gave me was Man's Search for Meaning. Uh, which was really interesting, I read it all in,
like, one afternoon, but it was, uh, I mean is--um--it's an older book, and it's this man whose name I
cannot remember. He was a doctor. He was Jewish, which is relevant, because it was sort of his
experiences during the Holocaust, where he was, like, talking through, and, like, the search for meaning
there, like when you are pushed to the brink, like, where do you find meaning?
[18:08] Harvey: I think that Charlie might have been a Humanistic therapist, because the search for
meaning is actually a very humanistic practice.
[18:15] Pen: It's--it was something that I would talk about a lot, and that's why I loved Charlie so much,
is like, this was this big, existential thing that I would talk about and, like, try and process, and so he gave
me this book, just because he thought I would like it, and because he thought I would see something in it.
And, how this is a segue, is that the end of the book, after all of this--the author, like, sharing his
experiences and sort of his thoughts on it, apparently there's a lot of controversy--not a lot--but, like, some
controversy regarding all of that, um, that I don't necessarily have opinions on. But the last part of it is
him talking about a therapeutic method called Logotherapy--
[18:54] Harvey: Oh, yeah!
[18:55] Pen: --that he had, that I believe he developed.
[18:58] Harvey: It's so interesting.
[18:59] Pen: Yeah, I thought it was really interesting. Um, God, I can't remember the exact quote, but
"if," like, "psychotherapy is," uh, "listening to things that are difficult to hear, then Logotherapy is saying
things that are difficult to say," I think. Something like that. And basically, like, processing the things that
are hard to kind of deal with. Um, the example that he gave in that section was, like, talking to a man
about, uh, I think his wife was dying soon, and, like, trying to, you know, talk--talk this--this through with
this man who didn't want to, like, talk about any of the feelings he was going to have about his wife
dying, uh, because they were really difficult to do, but, um, this doctor's, uh, thoughts that, like, going
through those difficult emotions, and being able to talk through them and think through them is really
important in being able to, like, deal with any of it and have, uh, I guess a sense of meaning. Um, I'm sure
I'm wrong about some of this stuff, and, like, how exactly it's stated in the book, but it really stuck out to
me.
[20:07] Harvey: Yeah, that is--that is interesting. The power--this is actually--this is a--a psychological
concept that I can talk about. Um, this is somewhat related to memory and information processing, I
think. There's--this is something that we talk about because I'm still a college student, so whenever I take
psych classes, the first thing that our prof tells us is, "Hey, take notes by hand, because that is more
effortful processing and you will remember it better," which is true, there is a lot of science to back that
up. But, my point in saying all of this is, by talking through the difficult things, I suspect that because that
processing is effortful, you process it a bit better, and maybe more deeply, and work through it maybe a
bit faster.
[20:53] Pen: Yeah, that--I think that that was sort of the thought behind it, and it was--it's very
interesting, and I--I still love so much that Charlie gave me this book, 'cause I was, like, fifteen, and it
still, in retrospect, feels like he was taking me so seriously, to, like, offer this thing to me.
[21:10] Harvey: Which is so important in a therapist. You'd be surprised how often in therapy you can
feel like you're not being taken seriously.
[21:18] Pen: Which is a horrible feeling.
[21:21] Harvey: Yeah.
[21:21] Pen: It's uh--it's really--it's because that's such an intimate setting.
[21:26] Harvey: Yeah, you're pouring your heart out to this perfect stranger, and sometimes, they're just
like, "Well, that's not really that big of a problem, is it?" and it's like, "Who gave you a license? Clown
College?"
[21:38] Pen: [Pen laughs.] It can. Oh, God, it can be like that. But that's why I was so lucky with Charlie,
is that he took me so seriously, and he, like, offered these things to me and it was whether I wanted to,
you know, talk about something lighter, or if I wanted to talk about something heavier, and, frankly, for
most of my therapists for a long time, I didn't really, like, deal with deeper things. Like, I was diagnosed
with depression, I was diagnosed with two or three different kinds of anxiety, and yet, every time I went
to therapy, I was talking about things that were like, it felt like I was just talking about things that were
currently happening, and not dealing with any of the deeper things, which is--is just for many different
reasons. One of them is that I wasn't doing well in my day-to-day, and so talking through that was really
important, and I needed to just be able to say all of these things to a person who would just listen to me.
That was so huge for me.
[22:31] Harvey: Yeah.
[22:31] Pen: Uh, and then also, and we've talked about this, uh, recently, I have, uh, intense social
anxiety, which was mentioned in the first, uh, episode, quote, "It's bad, folks."
[22:43] Harvey: It's bad, folks.
[22:44] Pen: Um, but yeah, I have--I have really bad social anxiety that is somewhat better now, which is
very cool, but it has meant that, for most of my therapists, I haven't talked about some things that have
been, like, deeper.
[22:56] Harvey: Right.
[22:56] Pen: Or more intense, because I've felt--it's like a mix of feeling sort of socially paralyzed, like, I
don't know how to bring this up, and I don't know if it's okay for me to bring this up, and I don't know if
you're going to be upset that I'm, like, kind of putting things off the rails, and I don't know if it's okay for
me to do a different thing, I don't know if it's okay for me to ask for the tissue box right now, like, I am
paralyzed, and then there's also the fear of rejection.
[23:21] Harvey: Yeah.
[23:22] Pen: There's the fear of opening up about a hard thing and having someone not take it very
seriously, and I am very, very, very lucky in that that has only happened to me once in therapy, and that it
was a recent experience, so it didn't define my therapeutic experience.
[23:37] Harvey: Yeah. Patrick? Is that the one?
[23:39] Pen: Not--yeah, Patrick, I'm not a--not a fan of Patrick. Like, Charlie gave me a book, and one
time showed me an SNL clip because he thought I would think it was funny. I don't remember--I think
that was after I had been, like, crying about something, and it was, like, kind of heavy and intense, and he
was like, "Hey, I've got a--I've got a video that you might like," and he showed me, like, uh, like the roll
call SNL, uh, skit, uh, where he, like, mispronounces all the students' names, and he was like, "Yeah, this
is really funny. I just thought you would like it," and I was like, "Thanks, Charlie."
[24:07] Harvey: Yeah, yeah, there is--there's something that you said, um, earlier, about, you know,
feeling like you couldn't talk about these things that were so, so, so important to you. And I--I think that
that's--as somebody who wants to be a therapist in the future, particularly working with adolescents, you
know, people just like the people Charlie was working with, regardless--and--and this goes to those of
you who, you know, don't want to be therapists, and just have friends who have problems sometimes,
because everyone does, it's really important to remember, I think, because I think this is something that
can get lost on people, just because you don't understand something, or something isn't important to you,
has no bearing on how important that thing is to somebody else. So, when you're trying to support
someone emotionally, especially as a therapist, I think it is so important to recognize that the things that
are important to you are going to be different than the things that are important to the other person, and if
you don't treat the things that they say like they are important, they won't trust you.
[25:06] Pen: Yeah, it's--it's not always a request to understand, sometimes it's just a request to be heard.
[25:17] Harvey: Yeah.
[25:18] Pen: Because that was my experience early in therapy, was really, like, I wasn't talking through
the origins or my depression, and my two or three kinds of anxiety, I was talking about my everyday life
because I needed to feel like I could just say all of it, and to speak these things that were hurting me, and
just feel like someone was listening, and that that was okay. I didn't need Charlie to do more than that.
[25:45] Harvey: No. And--and that's--that's another thing about that therapy can change, is that there
really--there are some therapeutic methods that do--that science suggests work better than others in
certain cases. But, at the end of the day, therapy is going to work best when you get sort of that client
compliance, and the best way that you get that is by making sure that your client trusts you.
[26:07] Pen: Yeah. It's--it's listening--it's active listening. It's--asking questions has always been, like,
huge for me. I have never liked it when my therapists assume that they know what I am feeling, or--I
think it's supposed to be a good thing when they say "we," like, "Well, when we feel like this," or--or,
"Well, we're struggling with this right now," and it's like, I--it's me--I don't--that's a very individual thing,
I know, for me, is I never want anyone to assume that they understand how I am thinking.
[26:38] Harvey: I think the purpose of the "we" is probably less about trying to say, like, "Oh, yeah, I
experience this exact thing as well," it's probably--I think it's one of two things, or possibly both of these
things, one of them being that trying to generalize your feelings to like, this is a thing that a lot of people
feel, because, for a lot of people who seek mental health treatment, many of them feel like they are the
only person who feels this way, and for some people, that feeling can be really distressing. So one very
common therapeutic technique is generalizing those feelings to be like, okay, lots of people feel this way,
so, really, you aren't--you know, you aren't broken, there isn't something horribly wrong with you, this
happens to people. The other thing might be that it could be a piece of, like, solidarity, of like, we as in
"I'm here with you," but, you know, the way that that's expressed matters, and the "we" is not going to
work for everybody.
[27:31] Pen: Yeah, that's--I think that's kind of the thing. For me, I have never really felt like I am the
only one who experiences these things, however, I have historically, a lot of times, uh, like, played down
my own feelings, or--
[27:46] Harvey: No, and I have, too.
[27:47] Pen: --felt like I wasn't feeling enough of this, so whenever people, and like, really, really well-
meaning people have generalized my feelings and been like, "Oh, yeah, other people feel like this, too," I
feel like, oh, so am I not--is it not enough? Like, should this just not matter to me? Should it, therefore,
like--am I just being whiny? Is--and that's--I get caught up in that, which is not what they--at all what they
are intending to say, but a very unfortunate side effect of it is like, I need to be validated in that what I am
going through is actually difficult, and not just something that I'm, like, making up in my head.
[28:20] Harvey: Yeah, and that--that is a line that you have to straddle with making sure that you validate
someone's feelings and go, you know, you're not broken, there's nothing horribly wrong with you, you're
human, this happens, and also being like, yes, this is hard, and it's okay to acknowledge--acknowledge
that it sucks. Is it--do you mind if I talk a little bit about my experiences?
[28:39] Pen: Yeah, go for it.
[28:40] Harvey: I'll--you know, I won't--you know, the thing about my therapeutic experiences, they
have been broadly negative, which is a real shame, and it's hilarious, I think, in some ways, that I want to
be a therapist. Um, honestly, not that unexpected of me, I mean, Pen, you know me. This probably falls
right in line with the kind of thing that I would do. I have not had good therapeutic experiences, so now I
want to do it because I think I can do it better. Um, in some ways. I know that I'm, you know, twenty, and
not a professional, but I am to be one.
[29:11] Pen: No, you're also just very kind-hearted and like to listen to people and have a--a sense of, um,
hm, you really like to make sure people feel heard--
[29:24] Harvey: I do. You're absolutely right.
[29:24] Pen: --and like--like they are important. Uh, I can really tell, like, that some of the experiences
that have been negative for you have very much turned into, like, no one should feel this way. No one
should, so I'm going to make sure that anyone I talk to isn't going to feel that way.
[29:41] Harvey: Yeah, yeah, yeah. Um, I've been in therapy for much longer. The--the first time that I
went into therapy, I was five. Um, and this was because--and, by the way, that's really young. Really,
really, really young.
[29:54] Pen: That's incredibly young.
[29:57] Harvey: My parents--I remember being told about this. I don't remember this 'cause, again,
PTSD-related memory loss, but, um, when I was five, I remember being told that my parents were talking
about moving, and this stressed five-year-old Harvey out very much, and I started pulling out my hair,
which is--this is called trichotillomania, and it can be a--and sometimes it's an OCD-type thing, where you
have this compulsion to tear out your hair, sometimes it's anxiety related. So, I started pulling out my hair,
and my therapists were like--not my therapists, my parents were like, "This isn't--this shouldn't be
happening. We need to take our kid in." So, I met with a--
[30:34] Pen: Which is--is very much, like, distress at moving when you're five, that's perfectly normal,
like, typical.
[30:40] Harvey: Tearing out your hair?
[30:41] Pen: That is a very extreme reaction.
[30:44] Harvey: Yeah, that is. And I'm sure most of you can imagine, that's atypical. So, I was--I met
with that therapist from the time i was five to the time I was eleven.
[30:53] Pen: Wow, that is a long time. Oh, no. Oh, no, wasn't this the one who, like--who, like, told your-
-your parents things, even--
[31:02] Harvey: No, that was--that was--that was one several years later. Um, and also, you know, the
thing about child psych is that you do have to tell the parents things.
[31:12] Pen: Yeah. There was just--I remember you talking about one therapist who, like, would say that
she wasn't going to tell your mom, or some--something like that, or was kind of a breach of trust sort of
way.
[31:22] Harvey: We'll get to her.
[31:24] Pen: Ooh, we'll get to her.
[31:25] Harvey: Um, but I met, uh, I met with this psychologist, and--and she was cool. I remember I
stopped seeing her when my parents--when I started to get--I--I've always had a pretty strong sense of
intuition. Have I always been right? No. Am I right often? Yes. When I was eleven, I started to get the
sense that my parents were going to get divorced. And they did. Um, but, so--
[31:47] Pen: [Pen laughs] I--You leaned close to the mic to say that, and it was like I could see eleven-
year-old Harvey internally like, "Oh, so I'm right? Oh, so I know everything? Good, cool. Got it."
[31:58] Harvey: Yeah, but, I remember talking to my therapist about, like, hey, I'm afraid that my parents
are going to get divorced, and I remember her saying very distinctly her saying, "Oh, no, they're not going
to get divorced," and it was like, I don't care if that's what you think, I'm worried about it, and I need you
to talk to me about how I'm worried about it. And, you know, I couldn't express that necessarily when I
was eleven.
[32:19] Pen: That is--boy, I--I hate so much--I--I don't like when just everyday people take that approach
to someone's problems, it's like, oh, but that--but it won't happen. It's like, okay, that's not helpful. But
when trained professionals deal with anxiety, and like, oh, but it's not true! It's like, do you know what
anxiety is? Because I do, and it's not always based on accuracy.
[32:45] Harvey: Right. Kind of the--the fundamental portion of anxiety is that it's based on cognitive
distortion and it's irrational.
[32:52] Pen: So saying it's not real isn't helpful at all.
[32:57] Harvey: 'Cause, like, I know that. [Harvey laughs.]
[32:59] Pen: Yeah, that's--
[32:59] Harvey: I know that it's not, yet.
[33:01] Pen: Cool, cool. Can we, uh, can we get to the part where you make me feel better?
[33:05] Harvey: Can you get to the part where you tell me how I'm going to handle the anxiety, and what
do I do if I'm right?
[33:10] Pen: Yeah, like, can we get to the part where you validate my feelings, because I'm eleven and a
person? You may have forgotten this.
[33:17] Harvey: I'm eleven, so-- I can't finish that Vine! Shoot! [Pen laughs.] Um, so, hopefully y'all
who are into Vine know what I was talking about. So, the next therapist I had, uh, her name was Debbie.
Normally I don't say names, but I'm going to say hers because I hate her. She was a Christian therapist.
[33:35] Pen: That's such a different reason. I said Charlie's name and I liked him a lot, and you're like,
I'm going to put Debbie on blast.
[33:43] Harvey: Yeah, Debbie was a therapist selected by, um, one of my family members, and she was a
Christian therapist, and I had just come out as gay. Not trans, but I had just come out as gay, and she--the
entire time, she was a) trying to talk me out of being gay, and b) trying to talk me out of moving in with
my dad. And I never--that one never--that one did work, I did not move in with my dad. Um, but, and she-
-she was the--she was the one that, uh, broke confidentiality and told my mom things.
[34:17] Pen: [Pen groans.] That's--that is so obviously a therapist who is not interested in helping a
client, but rather furthering a--a goal that does not have to do with that client.
[34:32] Harvey: It's not a client-centered goal, it's a "this is what I think is right, and I'm going to point
them toward that goal." Which could be well-intentioned, but it doesn't have good consequences.
[34:42] Pen: Yeah, like, the--I think there is a difference between, like, working with your client on
something that both of you want, versus, like, especially if you are working with someone who has, like, a
personality disorder, where you are working on behaviors and things that can be, like, really self-
destructive, then there has to be kind of a focus on, you know, like, maybe you are looking for something
that your client isn't able to see right now. But that's still focused on primarily your client's improvement,
and, like, concern over what is best for them, not concern over what you think is best for them.
[35:18] Harvey: Trying to tell a thirteen-year-old to stop liking girls is not--is not, no.
[35:25] Pen: Like, that's not--that is different than someone who is dealing with, like, delusions, and, you
know, trying to work through them with that. Like, not necessarily validating, uh, the things that they are
thinking or experiencing that aren't, uh, that aren't true, that aren't happening in reality, like, you know,
like, there is a--there is a fine line to straddle there, and that's difficult, and you have to, like, not always
agree with what your client is saying, because sometimes they're saying things that can be harmful to
them.
[35:52] Harvey: But the--but the--you know, the response to that is not, "Well, that's not happening, why
on Earth are you thinking that?" It's--it's more coming from a place of understanding, like, the way I
would handle something like that is, like, "Yeah, that sounds really difficult to deal with. You know, why
are you thinking that way?" You know, like, "What's making you think that?"
[36:07] Pen: Yeah, like, that is--you know, like, validating them in the sense of, like, you know, caring
about how they feel and--caring.
[36:16] Harvey: Caring.
[36:16] Pen: Caring.
[36:17] Harvey: I was about to ask, yeah, do you--we have to wrap up soon, so do you have any ending
thoughts? Do you want to talk about caring?
[36:24] Pen: I can say that I have been able to tell--I have absolutely been able to tell when my therapists
really care about me as a person.
[36:32] Harvey: Yeah, me too.
[36:33] Pen: Uh, I have had therapists who, like, I don't know that we necessarily clicked perfectly, but,
you know, it was--it was amiable or whatever, and it's not that I don't think they didn't care, I just, like,
maybe we just--the way that we both worked was not the best for each other.
[36:49] Harvey: Maybe their therapeutic technique just didn't work for you.
[36:51] Pen: Yeah. But, you know, they still did their best, and I think did want the best for me, and I
have been able to tell when I'm working with a therapist who really, genuinely wants the best for me, no
matter what that means.
[37:06] Harvey: Yeah, it's quite obvious. It's quite obvious.
[37:09] Pen: If that means that I'm no longer working with them, that's fine. That doesn't matter. It's
about me doing better, whatever that looks like. And I have been able to tell when that's just sort of an
abstract goal, like, "Oh, yeah, no, totally--I want what's best for my client," versus, "I see you, Pen, and I
am here to work with you and make sure that you come out of this better, no matter what that looks like."
I've been able to tell when it's something where it's like "I want to connect with you as a person," versus
something that's kind of more intangible, and maybe I open up to you about my trauma and then you don't
say anything for twenty minutes, Patrick.
[37:48] Harvey: Oh, Patrick. Uh, you know, I--I think the closing thought that I have is this: if you are
searching for therapy, or you're in therapy right now, and maybe you're not sure about it. It's okay to shop
around for therapists. In fact, if you can afford it, I would encourage it, 'cause the fact of the matter is
regardless of, you know, CBT being the most common therapeutic method, at the end of the day, different
therapists are going to have slightly different variations on what that looks like, and some may use fully
different approaches. So, looking at that approaching and under--doing research on those approaches, and
understanding what works for you, is so important. The other thing that I want to say, and this is
something that you said, you know, I've been able to tell when my therapists want the best for me, even if
it's not seeing them anymore. If you--if your therapist is getting upset because you're thinking about
leaving, that's a red flag, and they're not a good therapist, and you should leave.
[38:45] Pen: Yeah, that's not--I would say, if you aren't sure about the therapist you currently have, that's
fine. That's normal. There's not a problem with that. Like, maybe they're a nice person, and you can tell
that they do, like, mean well, and so you feel a little guilty about looking for someone else. Sometimes
your methods just don't match up, and that's okay. You don't owe them anything, and if they are a
professional, and genuinely want the best for you, they're not going to be upset about you looking for
someone else. In fact, good odds they try to help you with that.
[39:17] Harvey: Yeah, yeah. A--a good therapist genuinely wants the best for you, whatever that looks
like, and that's what I aim to be as a therapist. I know that I'm going to take at least a partially, like,
humanistic approach. That's not going to work for everyone. Not everyone's gonna want to talk about
existentialism, and talk about our feelings, and let's accept those feelings. Some people are going to want
to get straight to the point, so I'm not going to work for everybody. But--
[39:43] Pen: That's okay.
[39:45] Harvey: That's okay. So, you know, I think the bottom line is, therapy is supposed to be about
you. You're supposed to leave therapy feeling better, in most cases. There are some times you're going to
go through something tough, and it's going to take you a while to get over, but--
[40:01] Pen: Feeling heard.
[40:03] Harvey: Feeling heard is important. If you don't feel heard, if you feel actively like your therapist
doesn't understand you, that's a problem, and you should listen to yourself.
[40:12] Pen: Yeah, like, listen to yourself, and whatever experiences you've had in therapy, like, there is--
your experiences with different therapists can be dramatically different, and that's okay, and that doesn't
mean, like, anything good or bad about you. That's just sort of how it works, 'cause they're just as much a
person as you are. And, also, um, just briefly, like, I am--I'm a big advocate for therapy, personally, not
that I have judgement calls on people who don't do therapy, just like, I think it can be very helpful,
regardless of whether or not you're diagnosed with something. I think just, like, processing your life, like,
everybody's got something to talk about, I think. And, uh, it can also be really difficult to afford, uh,
depending on what insurance you have or don't have. Uh, there are, depending where you're at,
sometimes, uh, community-based therapy things. Uh, because Harvey and I live in a University Town,
um, there is a community counseling, uh, training center through our university where you get therapy for
free, and the only caveat is, like, they're student therapists. But, I actually kind of like that because it
means that you have a sup--like, they have a supervisor and an instructor who you can, like, let them
know if something is going wrong, or, like, they're more likely, I think, to recognize that they don't know
everything. Uh, but, anyway, there are lots of different ways that you can get affordable therapy
depending on your location, and not everyone knows that. Not everyone knows that that's a thing.
[41:39] Harvey: Yes. That--that is true.
[41:41] Pen: Uh, so I wanted to include that. Like, if you want therapy, and you're not sure how to get it,
you can look things up, and there's--there's lots of places that really want to help.
[41:50] Harvey: I think that is a really excellent point, and I think that's a really good note to end off on.
So, hey, stick around for a couple more minutes, and we'll tell you a little bit more about how this podcast
is run. Beyond Introspection is an independently-run podcast by Pen Novus and Harvey LaFord. Music
by Girl Lloyd. You can find us on Twitter and Instagram at ByndPodcast, or you can email us at
beyonddot—that’s d-o-t—podcast@gmail.com. We publish on Buzzsprout, iTunes, Spotify, or wherever
you get your podcasts. You can find the link to our social media and email in the podcast description. Got
feedback for us? Feel free to reach out on social media or via email. We’d love to hear from everyone.
Take care of yourselves.
with Pen Novus and Harvey LaFord
Episode 2 – INTRO to Therapy
[0:09] Pen: Welcome to the Beyond Introspection podcast. I am Pen.
[0:12] Harvey: And I’m Harvey.
[0:13] Pen: And this is a podcast where we talk about mental health, neurodivergence, and how it impacts
literally every aspect of our lives.
[0:19] Harvey: Every single one.
[0:21] Pen: All of them. All of them. Sort of not—non-optionally. Uh—this week we are going to talk
about therapy.
[0:28] Harvey: We are. We are. And I—we were comparing notes, I guess, so to speak, prior to this
podcast. And—well, this episode, I mean.
[0:36] Pen: [Pen laughs] That’s generous.
[0:38] Harvey: Uh, yeah, comparing notes in the sense that I have a full page of Google Doc notes, and
Pen has approximately how many?
[0:43] Pen: Uh, I had to pull up the Google Doc where we have written down the introduction because
it’s my job to read that, and those are all of the notes I have.
[0:53] Harvey: I respect you.
[0:54] Pen: Yeah. It’s because we’re talking about therapy and Harvey has, like, psych major things to
talk about.
[1:03] Harvey: I have the psychology facts.
[1:05] Pen: And I am just going to be talking about my own experiences, and I know what those are. I
just realized I have ADHD and maybe should have taken notes.
[1:15] Harvey: Well, that’s okay. I understand and respect you.
[1:18] Pen: You know what? This is going to be—this is actually going to be—this is—this is better
because it’s more realistic. [Harvey laughs.] Because—
[1:24] Harvey: That’s true.
[1:27] Pen: This is what ADHD is like, everyone. You don’t take notes, and then you think, “Oh.”
[1:31] Harvey: Ha ha. Uh-oh.
[1:32] Pen: “Was this foolish? My grades suggest, uh, that it’s not as foolish as you might think.
[1:38] Harvey: But, yeah. Since you have all of the, you know, personal experiences in your brain, do
you want to—do you want to talk a little bit about your experiences with therapy?
[1:47] Pen: Uh, I can certainly do, like, an overview type thing.
[1:50] Harvey: Although, I think what could be useful, um, I would love to talk about what we mean
when we say therapy.
[1:57] Pen: That’s not something I would have considered talking about. [Harvey laughs.] So, yeah, let’s
—let’s do that.
[2:02] Harvey: Yeah, so, therapy is something that has a very specific meaning, um, when you are—you
know, when you’re studying psychology. And, you know, so, therapy is essentially shorthand for
psychotherapy. And, you know, psychotherapy is exactly what it sounds like. It, you know, it's like any
kind of therapy like physical therapy, things along those lines, except it is for the mind. That is what the
"psycho" is for.
[2:26] Pen: That is-- you know, I never think about it being short for that, but that does actually make a
lot of sense.
[2:33] Harvey: Yeah. It is--it is something you don't think about, because I feel like the word "therapy" is
so synonymous with mental health that I--I think it's really important to talk about therapy is not just a
mental health-specific thing, it's broad for trying to improve the state of something, more or less. When
you do physical therapy, you're trying to improve someone's physical state, when you're doing
psychotherapy, you're trying to improve someone's mental state, you know?
[2:58] Pen: That's--yeah, yeah, it is really like when we use therapy, sort of colloquially, it's consistently
like, the one that is short for psychotherapy, which, it's--it's really interesting for me to think about that
because I was in physical therapy last year for a time.
[3:15] Harvey: No, I was thinking about that when I was writing out these notes, and I was like, "Oh,
Pen--Pen will--Pen will understand this."
[3:20] Pen: I understand it. Have I thought about it? No.
[3:23] Harvey: Thinking is different from understanding.
[3:26] Pen: That's--hey, that's--that's a quote right there, Harvey. That's a quotable moment.
[3:31] Harvey: Wow. Epic Harvey quotable moments. So, you know, the other thing I'd love to talk
about, just as we're--so when we're talking about therapy, we mean psychotherapy, and when we mean
psychotherapy, we're talking about techniques to change the way that someone thinks or behaves, or both
in most cases. So, there are three main goals of psychotherapy, and those generally are: One, to identify
and challenge distorted thinking patterns, which are present in most neurodivergences or mental illnesses.
Two, to identify specific life problems that contribute to one's struggling, so trying to mitigate the effects
of the environment as much as you can. And three, and I think this one is the most important, to develop
options for the future and set realistic goals. [Pen laughs.] Realistic does not necessarily mean "by the
time you leave this therapy session, you are going to be cured of anxiety." No, it's more like a, "Okay,
well. why don't you go home and talk to your roommate about how you're feeling bad, and what you
would like them to do differently?" You know? Something like that.
[4:35] Pen: I feel like when people talk about therapy, or when we think about therapy, we're thinking
about those first two much more than the--the realistic goal-setting.
[4:44] Harvey: Yeah, I think so, too.
[4:46] Pen: When people think about therapy, I think there is--there is a tendency to focus on, like, you're
going to be asked to expose all of these things, or there is going to be, like, judgement calls made. Uh,
which is a really--there is--that is really unfortunate that there is that, um, I mean there's the stigma
attached to it, but like, if we start talking about stigma, like, that's--part of the point of this podcast is to,
uh, reduce some of that.
[5:12] Harvey: Dispel, yeah.
[5:13] Pen: Yeah, yeah. Uh, but there's--there's that idea that, like, you're going to have to expose all of
your deep secrets, or, like, your therapist is going to look at your whole life and be like, "Well, you're
doing all of this wrong," and this part of you, like, "What did your father do [Harvey: That's
psychoanalysis.] that made it so you're afraid to go to the grocery store?" Yeah, yeah! Yeah, I feel like
when people talk about therapy or think about it, they're thinking about the, like, psychoanalytical part of,
like, that could be a bigger part of it, but in my experience, like, my therapists haven't been terribly
psychoanalytical.
[5:47] Harvey: And actually, this is a great segue into talking about the different kinds of therapy, if you
don't mind me going into that a little bit.
[5:53] Pen: You should--you--you--you folks should see, uh, the excited look in Harvey's eyes right now.
[Harvey laughs.] Just a little glint that's like, "Let me infodump about my major!"
[6:01] Harvey: Right now. So, some fun facts about therapy. Okay, I use the term "fun" loosely, um, so,
actually, a very important fact to consider is that around 43% of people who are diagnosed with mental
illness receive treatment. Less than half of people who are diagnosed.
[6:20] Pen: That specific--treatment in general? Or, like, therapeutic treatment?
06:25 Eh, it was more or less treatment in general, so this could include just medication and could include
just therapy, but either way, the majority of people who are diagnosed with some kind of mental illness
aren't receiving treatment. 57% aren't.
[6:40] Pen: You know, the thing that's really troubling about that is that you have to be seen by some sort
of professional in order to be diagnosed.
[6:48] Harvey: Right? That's the thing that caught me, too.
[6:49] Pen: And then the follow-up is, like, 'cause I know that you can go to, like, a doctor's office, and,
like, they ask the questions now of like, "Have you, you know, felt more down?" or like, "Have you had
more difficulty enjoying things?" Um, I've been to the doctor a lot. And, so, answering these questions--
[7:06] Harvey: Can't relate.
[7:07] Pen: Ah! Well, yeah, that's--you know? That's good. That's probably--that's probably good. Um--
[7:11] Harvey: It's because I'm afraid of the doctor, but--
[7:13] Pen: That's not good.
[7:14] Harvey: Right.
[7:14] Pen: I'm glad that you're not going for the reasons I am, which is to say, joint problems.
[7:18] Harvey: Yes.
[7:21] Pen: But, like, they ask those questions, and I presume, like, they have planned follow-ups for
them. And, like, I know that, like, the nurse that I go to for oof-ouch-body-hurt isn't going to be able to be
able to treat me in nearly the same capacity as, like, my psychiatrist, but presumably there is a follow-
through there that could exist.
[7:44] Harvey: There's supposed to be. And--and that is something that is important to the psychological
community when we diagnose someone, or even when we don't. Even when we have somebody who's
just experiencing a minor hardship, or somebody who is sub-threshold, follow-through is important, and--
and that's something that we do focus on, but, you know, realistically it doesn't always happen, either
through patient non-compliance, or a lack of resources, or, you know, a myriad of other reasons.
[8:10] Pen: Yeah.
[8:11] Harvey: So, in terms of the kinds of therapy, in terms of psychotherapy there are over 400 kinds.
[8:18] Pen: We're not going to list all of them I'm guessing.
[8:20] Harvey: No, I don't know all of them. Oh, my goodness.
[8:25] Pen: There's a class that's just "memorize them."
[8:26] Harvey: Oh, God, that would be horrible.
[8:28] Pen: That's high school.
[8:30] Harvey: Well, yeah. But, you know, the thing about the different kinds of therapy is that some of
them are variations on a theme. Other than--others are combinations of different therapeutic types, such as
Cognitive-Behavioral.
[8:44] Pen: Oh, I know--I know! I know CBT!
[8:46] Harvey: You do know CBT. It's--you know, it's the most common type of therapy, uh, of
psychotherapy. When I say "therapy" I mean psychotherapy, moving forward. Cognitive therapy--or,
Cognitive-Behavioral Therapy is a combination of Cognitive and Behavioral Therapy, which can be
separate--which can be separate therapies, and they often are. Um, but many psychologists and
psychiatrists use CBT, and, you know, this focuses on changing some unhealthy cognitions--cognitions
being a fancy word for thoughts.
[9:19] Pen: They had that--they had the glint in their eyes again.
[9:22] Harvey: Um, you know, unhealthy behaviors, and, you know--some of that has to do with--
cognition influences behavior, of course, the way that you think is going to change the way that you
behave. But, also, the way that you behave changes the way that you think. Self-fulfilling prophecies and
whatnot.
[9:37] Pen: Ouroboros. The snake eats its own tail.
[9:40] Harvey: Ah. What a fun--
[9:42] Pen: Yeah, yeah. Yeah, you--do you--do you know--have I just said something that made
absolutely no sense to you, Harvey?
[9:47] Harvey: Yes.
[9:48] Pen: Okay, so an Ouroboros, it's like, uh, I believe it originates in Greek mythology. I'm glad that
you run the Twitter, and not me, because I'm sure--Oh, God--um, but, an Ouroboros, it's like, it's literally,
like, a snake eating its own tail.
[10:02] Harvey: I see.
[10:03] Pen: Um, and it's supposed to be a symbol of, like, uh, a lot of like big, existential things. But,
you know, self-fulfilling kind of thing.
[10:09] Harvey: Sure, sure. So, you know, Cognitive-Behavioral Therapy, you know, is--is--is really--it's
kind of the golden standard for psychotherapy for the time being. And, you know, it's really useful for
things--uh, the--the behavior side of things especially are really useful for things like therapy for PTSD
and phobias, that's what the behavioral side is for. Um, and then--while Behavioral Therapy also works
for things like depression and anxiety, it's also, you know, really, you know, Cognitive Therapy, in some
ways, is better-suited toward anxiety and depression.
[10:40] Pen: Yeah, that makes sense.
[10:41] Harvey: Sure, and then, you know, there's a bunch of different kinds, and I'll just list them off
really quickly, if you don't mind.
[10:47] Pen: Different kinds of--
[10:48] Harvey: Therapy. Like--
[10:49] Pen: But not--but not all four hundred.
[10:51] Harvey: No, no, like five.
[10:53] Pen: Like five. Yeah, five. Five is good.
[10:56] Harvey: So, another one, Interpersonal Therapy focuses on reframing and adjusting unhealthy
relationships that might contribute to mental health issues.
[11:03] Pen: This is sensible.
[11:04] Harvey: Very common in Family Therapy and Couples' Therapy, things like that.
Psychodynamic, which is based on Psychoanalysis--Psychoanalysis is the old name for Freud's principles.
Freudian principles.
[11:17] Pen: The couch.
[11:18] Harvey: Yeah. So, Psychodynamic is similar, it focuses on introspection, looking at childhood
trauma, things in the past, subconscious influences at work. So, actually, Psychodynamic Therapies are
very, very influential today, just not in the way that they were with Freud, because Freud is--
[11:38] Pen: Wrong.
[11:39] Harvey: --not great. I have many choice words for Freud. And, there's also--
[11:44] Pen: And we decided that this podcast wasn't going to have swear words in it, so I think a lot of
the words for Freud cannot be said.
[11:50] Harvey: A lot of the words I have for Freud are things that I can't say. Um, there's also
Humanistic Therapy, things that are mostly focused on the client, trying to make sure that that person is,
um, you know, as comfortable as possible. A lot of the time, this--you know, one of the really cool things
about Humanistic Therapy is that many of those perspectives reject the idea that therapists are the
authority on a patient's inner state.
[12:16] Pen: That's good. That's--that's a good--that should not be an underlying assumption that you go
into therapy with.
[12:27] Harvey: No, but, unfortunately, in some cases, it is.
[12:30] Pen: Cough, cough, Freud.
[12:32] Harvey: So those are the most common, and then there are some less common ones as well, one
of them being Dialectical Behavior Therapy, which is one that you may not have heard of before.
[12:42] Pen: I have heard of that.
[12:43] Harvey: Yeah, it's--it's a more unusual one, but it's, in particular, this one is based on more
behavioral principles, and it's, um, it's mostly for--
[12:52] Pen: Borderline?
[12:54] Harvey: Borderline Personality Disorder, and also just in general hard-to-treat patients.
[12:58] Pen: Yeah, okay, this is why I've heard of it.
[12:59] Harvey: Generally, this means personality disorders, because personality disorders are quite
difficult to treat for reasons that we can get into another time. But, yeah, those are some types of therapy
that I think are neat to note, because I think a lot of the time, not only when we say therapy, we conflate it
with psychotherapy, but I think we also think CBT immediately.
[13:20] Pen: Yeah, I think we imagine a very specific, like, all therapy means this one thing.
[13:26] Harvey: And that's just not true. There are many different ways that therapy can exist, and not
every therapeutic technique is going to work with every individual.
[13:34] Pen: No, no, like it--it's good that there's so many metrics of therapy. Like, it's good that it has
evolved from, like, classic Freud couch or whatever, and it's--it's very good that there are different options
for different patients. Like, if you have a personality disorder, and you need something that is more
focused on, like, behavioral things, versus if you have, like, anxiety and depression, that is much more
cognitive-based. There are things you can learn, ways you can change your own thinking that just aren't
going to work in some other cases.
[14:03] Harvey: Yeah, yeah, no, totally. But, Pen, I've been talking for so long. Do you want to talk
about your experiences with therapy?
[14:10] Pen: You know, there's actually a really interesting segue here.
[14:12] Harvey: Okay.
[14:12] Pen: Uh, my first therapist, who, I've talked to you about him, uh, a few times. He was great.
[14:18] Harvey: Was this the one that said "tummy?"
[14:21] Pen: Thank you, Harvey, for-- [Harvey laughs] yes, yes. He said "tummy" once.
[14:25] Harvey: You're going to have to provide the context behind that one.
[14:27] Pen: I will. I'll get to that point. Uh, a broad kind of overview of my experiences in therapy, I
have been in and out, but primarily in therapy, for about seven years. I could do the math, I'm not going
to. Uh, but, I believe when I got into therapy, I was about fifteen, and it was because I had noticed the
symptoms of depression in myself, and like, this was, uh, I mentioned in our first episode that I had sort
of put myself into therapy, it was something that I was motivated to do because I noticed how I was
feeling, and that it was bad. Uh, and I'm glad I did something about that.
[15:04] Harvey: Sure, of course.
[15:04] Pen: But, I got--I got really, really lucky with my first therapist. He was older, it was actually--he
retired part of the way through me getting therapy at this particular place.
[15:18] Harvey: I see.
[15:19] Pen: Uh, which was unfortunate, because he was great.
[15:20] Harvey: Yeah.
[15:21] Pen: His name was Charlie, and he was, like, kind of like a cool--not like a cool grandpa, 'cause
he wasn't quite that old, but, you know, like a cool, older relative sort of guy. He was really, like, friendly,
and very, very engaging. And, I'm going to--I'll tell the tummy story now. [Harvey laughs.] This was--
and this was not--this was actually, like, a very general kind of therapy thing. Like, we tried meditation
once, which did not work for me, meditation. Particularly the kind that is kind of typical.
[15:53] Harvey: Empty your mind.
[15:54] Pen: Yeah, the empty your mind, like "Just focus on your breathing," and--
[15:57] Harvey: It's like, you have ADHD.
[15:58] Pen: I didn't know I had ADHD when I was 15, but like, Charlie sits me down on, like, a cushion
and he's like, "Let's try some therapy things," like, and he, like, put his hand on his stomach and he was
like, "Breathe through your tummy," and I remember thinking, like, "Did you just say 'tummy' to me?
Hey, old man, did you just say tummy?" 'Cause I was fifteen, and, um, I associated, like, "tummy" with
more childish things, so I was like, "What the--hey, did you just say 'tummy,' old man?" I did not say this
to him.
[16:24] Harvey: No, no, that would be mean.
[16:24] Pen: But, it--it just stuck out to me so much. Uh, but yeah, the--the meditation wicked didn't
work, 'cause I was sitting there, being fifteen and having undiagnosed ADHD like, "I can't empty my
mind, I don't know what to tell you. I have so many--I have so many thoughts in it!" But, but, the segue
from different kinds of therapy into Charlie is one of the things I really, really loved about Charlie was
that he listened to me. Uh, when--whether I wanted to talk about something that was lighter, or if I wanted
to talk about something that was heavier. Uh, I have been kind of an existential person for a long time,
even when I was fifteen.
[17:04] Harvey: Yeah, that's the mood.
[17:04] Pen: Yeah, that's--yeah. I had an existential crisis the summer between fifteen and sixteen, I
think.
[17:12] Harvey: Oh, my God.
[17:12] Pen: Uh, in part, uh, sort of sparked by, well, it's--it--okay, this is going to sound like it was
Charlie's fault, it's not Charlie's fault. But he did give me two books, because I talked about, um, I don't
know, like, I must have talked about death at some point. I say this just because, like, one of the books
was called On Death and Dying.
[17:33] Harvey: Right.
[17:33] Pen: Um, I never--I never actually read that one, 'cause that was the second one he gave me. But,
the first one he gave me was Man's Search for Meaning. Uh, which was really interesting, I read it all in,
like, one afternoon, but it was, uh, I mean is--um--it's an older book, and it's this man whose name I
cannot remember. He was a doctor. He was Jewish, which is relevant, because it was sort of his
experiences during the Holocaust, where he was, like, talking through, and, like, the search for meaning
there, like when you are pushed to the brink, like, where do you find meaning?
[18:08] Harvey: I think that Charlie might have been a Humanistic therapist, because the search for
meaning is actually a very humanistic practice.
[18:15] Pen: It's--it was something that I would talk about a lot, and that's why I loved Charlie so much,
is like, this was this big, existential thing that I would talk about and, like, try and process, and so he gave
me this book, just because he thought I would like it, and because he thought I would see something in it.
And, how this is a segue, is that the end of the book, after all of this--the author, like, sharing his
experiences and sort of his thoughts on it, apparently there's a lot of controversy--not a lot--but, like, some
controversy regarding all of that, um, that I don't necessarily have opinions on. But the last part of it is
him talking about a therapeutic method called Logotherapy--
[18:54] Harvey: Oh, yeah!
[18:55] Pen: --that he had, that I believe he developed.
[18:58] Harvey: It's so interesting.
[18:59] Pen: Yeah, I thought it was really interesting. Um, God, I can't remember the exact quote, but
"if," like, "psychotherapy is," uh, "listening to things that are difficult to hear, then Logotherapy is saying
things that are difficult to say," I think. Something like that. And basically, like, processing the things that
are hard to kind of deal with. Um, the example that he gave in that section was, like, talking to a man
about, uh, I think his wife was dying soon, and, like, trying to, you know, talk--talk this--this through with
this man who didn't want to, like, talk about any of the feelings he was going to have about his wife
dying, uh, because they were really difficult to do, but, um, this doctor's, uh, thoughts that, like, going
through those difficult emotions, and being able to talk through them and think through them is really
important in being able to, like, deal with any of it and have, uh, I guess a sense of meaning. Um, I'm sure
I'm wrong about some of this stuff, and, like, how exactly it's stated in the book, but it really stuck out to
me.
[20:07] Harvey: Yeah, that is--that is interesting. The power--this is actually--this is a--a psychological
concept that I can talk about. Um, this is somewhat related to memory and information processing, I
think. There's--this is something that we talk about because I'm still a college student, so whenever I take
psych classes, the first thing that our prof tells us is, "Hey, take notes by hand, because that is more
effortful processing and you will remember it better," which is true, there is a lot of science to back that
up. But, my point in saying all of this is, by talking through the difficult things, I suspect that because that
processing is effortful, you process it a bit better, and maybe more deeply, and work through it maybe a
bit faster.
[20:53] Pen: Yeah, that--I think that that was sort of the thought behind it, and it was--it's very
interesting, and I--I still love so much that Charlie gave me this book, 'cause I was, like, fifteen, and it
still, in retrospect, feels like he was taking me so seriously, to, like, offer this thing to me.
[21:10] Harvey: Which is so important in a therapist. You'd be surprised how often in therapy you can
feel like you're not being taken seriously.
[21:18] Pen: Which is a horrible feeling.
[21:21] Harvey: Yeah.
[21:21] Pen: It's uh--it's really--it's because that's such an intimate setting.
[21:26] Harvey: Yeah, you're pouring your heart out to this perfect stranger, and sometimes, they're just
like, "Well, that's not really that big of a problem, is it?" and it's like, "Who gave you a license? Clown
College?"
[21:38] Pen: [Pen laughs.] It can. Oh, God, it can be like that. But that's why I was so lucky with Charlie,
is that he took me so seriously, and he, like, offered these things to me and it was whether I wanted to,
you know, talk about something lighter, or if I wanted to talk about something heavier, and, frankly, for
most of my therapists for a long time, I didn't really, like, deal with deeper things. Like, I was diagnosed
with depression, I was diagnosed with two or three different kinds of anxiety, and yet, every time I went
to therapy, I was talking about things that were like, it felt like I was just talking about things that were
currently happening, and not dealing with any of the deeper things, which is--is just for many different
reasons. One of them is that I wasn't doing well in my day-to-day, and so talking through that was really
important, and I needed to just be able to say all of these things to a person who would just listen to me.
That was so huge for me.
[22:31] Harvey: Yeah.
[22:31] Pen: Uh, and then also, and we've talked about this, uh, recently, I have, uh, intense social
anxiety, which was mentioned in the first, uh, episode, quote, "It's bad, folks."
[22:43] Harvey: It's bad, folks.
[22:44] Pen: Um, but yeah, I have--I have really bad social anxiety that is somewhat better now, which is
very cool, but it has meant that, for most of my therapists, I haven't talked about some things that have
been, like, deeper.
[22:56] Harvey: Right.
[22:56] Pen: Or more intense, because I've felt--it's like a mix of feeling sort of socially paralyzed, like, I
don't know how to bring this up, and I don't know if it's okay for me to bring this up, and I don't know if
you're going to be upset that I'm, like, kind of putting things off the rails, and I don't know if it's okay for
me to do a different thing, I don't know if it's okay for me to ask for the tissue box right now, like, I am
paralyzed, and then there's also the fear of rejection.
[23:21] Harvey: Yeah.
[23:22] Pen: There's the fear of opening up about a hard thing and having someone not take it very
seriously, and I am very, very, very lucky in that that has only happened to me once in therapy, and that it
was a recent experience, so it didn't define my therapeutic experience.
[23:37] Harvey: Yeah. Patrick? Is that the one?
[23:39] Pen: Not--yeah, Patrick, I'm not a--not a fan of Patrick. Like, Charlie gave me a book, and one
time showed me an SNL clip because he thought I would think it was funny. I don't remember--I think
that was after I had been, like, crying about something, and it was, like, kind of heavy and intense, and he
was like, "Hey, I've got a--I've got a video that you might like," and he showed me, like, uh, like the roll
call SNL, uh, skit, uh, where he, like, mispronounces all the students' names, and he was like, "Yeah, this
is really funny. I just thought you would like it," and I was like, "Thanks, Charlie."
[24:07] Harvey: Yeah, yeah, there is--there's something that you said, um, earlier, about, you know,
feeling like you couldn't talk about these things that were so, so, so important to you. And I--I think that
that's--as somebody who wants to be a therapist in the future, particularly working with adolescents, you
know, people just like the people Charlie was working with, regardless--and--and this goes to those of
you who, you know, don't want to be therapists, and just have friends who have problems sometimes,
because everyone does, it's really important to remember, I think, because I think this is something that
can get lost on people, just because you don't understand something, or something isn't important to you,
has no bearing on how important that thing is to somebody else. So, when you're trying to support
someone emotionally, especially as a therapist, I think it is so important to recognize that the things that
are important to you are going to be different than the things that are important to the other person, and if
you don't treat the things that they say like they are important, they won't trust you.
[25:06] Pen: Yeah, it's--it's not always a request to understand, sometimes it's just a request to be heard.
[25:17] Harvey: Yeah.
[25:18] Pen: Because that was my experience early in therapy, was really, like, I wasn't talking through
the origins or my depression, and my two or three kinds of anxiety, I was talking about my everyday life
because I needed to feel like I could just say all of it, and to speak these things that were hurting me, and
just feel like someone was listening, and that that was okay. I didn't need Charlie to do more than that.
[25:45] Harvey: No. And--and that's--that's another thing about that therapy can change, is that there
really--there are some therapeutic methods that do--that science suggests work better than others in
certain cases. But, at the end of the day, therapy is going to work best when you get sort of that client
compliance, and the best way that you get that is by making sure that your client trusts you.
[26:07] Pen: Yeah. It's--it's listening--it's active listening. It's--asking questions has always been, like,
huge for me. I have never liked it when my therapists assume that they know what I am feeling, or--I
think it's supposed to be a good thing when they say "we," like, "Well, when we feel like this," or--or,
"Well, we're struggling with this right now," and it's like, I--it's me--I don't--that's a very individual thing,
I know, for me, is I never want anyone to assume that they understand how I am thinking.
[26:38] Harvey: I think the purpose of the "we" is probably less about trying to say, like, "Oh, yeah, I
experience this exact thing as well," it's probably--I think it's one of two things, or possibly both of these
things, one of them being that trying to generalize your feelings to like, this is a thing that a lot of people
feel, because, for a lot of people who seek mental health treatment, many of them feel like they are the
only person who feels this way, and for some people, that feeling can be really distressing. So one very
common therapeutic technique is generalizing those feelings to be like, okay, lots of people feel this way,
so, really, you aren't--you know, you aren't broken, there isn't something horribly wrong with you, this
happens to people. The other thing might be that it could be a piece of, like, solidarity, of like, we as in
"I'm here with you," but, you know, the way that that's expressed matters, and the "we" is not going to
work for everybody.
[27:31] Pen: Yeah, that's--I think that's kind of the thing. For me, I have never really felt like I am the
only one who experiences these things, however, I have historically, a lot of times, uh, like, played down
my own feelings, or--
[27:46] Harvey: No, and I have, too.
[27:47] Pen: --felt like I wasn't feeling enough of this, so whenever people, and like, really, really well-
meaning people have generalized my feelings and been like, "Oh, yeah, other people feel like this, too," I
feel like, oh, so am I not--is it not enough? Like, should this just not matter to me? Should it, therefore,
like--am I just being whiny? Is--and that's--I get caught up in that, which is not what they--at all what they
are intending to say, but a very unfortunate side effect of it is like, I need to be validated in that what I am
going through is actually difficult, and not just something that I'm, like, making up in my head.
[28:20] Harvey: Yeah, and that--that is a line that you have to straddle with making sure that you validate
someone's feelings and go, you know, you're not broken, there's nothing horribly wrong with you, you're
human, this happens, and also being like, yes, this is hard, and it's okay to acknowledge--acknowledge
that it sucks. Is it--do you mind if I talk a little bit about my experiences?
[28:39] Pen: Yeah, go for it.
[28:40] Harvey: I'll--you know, I won't--you know, the thing about my therapeutic experiences, they
have been broadly negative, which is a real shame, and it's hilarious, I think, in some ways, that I want to
be a therapist. Um, honestly, not that unexpected of me, I mean, Pen, you know me. This probably falls
right in line with the kind of thing that I would do. I have not had good therapeutic experiences, so now I
want to do it because I think I can do it better. Um, in some ways. I know that I'm, you know, twenty, and
not a professional, but I am to be one.
[29:11] Pen: No, you're also just very kind-hearted and like to listen to people and have a--a sense of, um,
hm, you really like to make sure people feel heard--
[29:24] Harvey: I do. You're absolutely right.
[29:24] Pen: --and like--like they are important. Uh, I can really tell, like, that some of the experiences
that have been negative for you have very much turned into, like, no one should feel this way. No one
should, so I'm going to make sure that anyone I talk to isn't going to feel that way.
[29:41] Harvey: Yeah, yeah, yeah. Um, I've been in therapy for much longer. The--the first time that I
went into therapy, I was five. Um, and this was because--and, by the way, that's really young. Really,
really, really young.
[29:54] Pen: That's incredibly young.
[29:57] Harvey: My parents--I remember being told about this. I don't remember this 'cause, again,
PTSD-related memory loss, but, um, when I was five, I remember being told that my parents were talking
about moving, and this stressed five-year-old Harvey out very much, and I started pulling out my hair,
which is--this is called trichotillomania, and it can be a--and sometimes it's an OCD-type thing, where you
have this compulsion to tear out your hair, sometimes it's anxiety related. So, I started pulling out my hair,
and my therapists were like--not my therapists, my parents were like, "This isn't--this shouldn't be
happening. We need to take our kid in." So, I met with a--
[30:34] Pen: Which is--is very much, like, distress at moving when you're five, that's perfectly normal,
like, typical.
[30:40] Harvey: Tearing out your hair?
[30:41] Pen: That is a very extreme reaction.
[30:44] Harvey: Yeah, that is. And I'm sure most of you can imagine, that's atypical. So, I was--I met
with that therapist from the time i was five to the time I was eleven.
[30:53] Pen: Wow, that is a long time. Oh, no. Oh, no, wasn't this the one who, like--who, like, told your-
-your parents things, even--
[31:02] Harvey: No, that was--that was--that was one several years later. Um, and also, you know, the
thing about child psych is that you do have to tell the parents things.
[31:12] Pen: Yeah. There was just--I remember you talking about one therapist who, like, would say that
she wasn't going to tell your mom, or some--something like that, or was kind of a breach of trust sort of
way.
[31:22] Harvey: We'll get to her.
[31:24] Pen: Ooh, we'll get to her.
[31:25] Harvey: Um, but I met, uh, I met with this psychologist, and--and she was cool. I remember I
stopped seeing her when my parents--when I started to get--I--I've always had a pretty strong sense of
intuition. Have I always been right? No. Am I right often? Yes. When I was eleven, I started to get the
sense that my parents were going to get divorced. And they did. Um, but, so--
[31:47] Pen: [Pen laughs] I--You leaned close to the mic to say that, and it was like I could see eleven-
year-old Harvey internally like, "Oh, so I'm right? Oh, so I know everything? Good, cool. Got it."
[31:58] Harvey: Yeah, but, I remember talking to my therapist about, like, hey, I'm afraid that my parents
are going to get divorced, and I remember her saying very distinctly her saying, "Oh, no, they're not going
to get divorced," and it was like, I don't care if that's what you think, I'm worried about it, and I need you
to talk to me about how I'm worried about it. And, you know, I couldn't express that necessarily when I
was eleven.
[32:19] Pen: That is--boy, I--I hate so much--I--I don't like when just everyday people take that approach
to someone's problems, it's like, oh, but that--but it won't happen. It's like, okay, that's not helpful. But
when trained professionals deal with anxiety, and like, oh, but it's not true! It's like, do you know what
anxiety is? Because I do, and it's not always based on accuracy.
[32:45] Harvey: Right. Kind of the--the fundamental portion of anxiety is that it's based on cognitive
distortion and it's irrational.
[32:52] Pen: So saying it's not real isn't helpful at all.
[32:57] Harvey: 'Cause, like, I know that. [Harvey laughs.]
[32:59] Pen: Yeah, that's--
[32:59] Harvey: I know that it's not, yet.
[33:01] Pen: Cool, cool. Can we, uh, can we get to the part where you make me feel better?
[33:05] Harvey: Can you get to the part where you tell me how I'm going to handle the anxiety, and what
do I do if I'm right?
[33:10] Pen: Yeah, like, can we get to the part where you validate my feelings, because I'm eleven and a
person? You may have forgotten this.
[33:17] Harvey: I'm eleven, so-- I can't finish that Vine! Shoot! [Pen laughs.] Um, so, hopefully y'all
who are into Vine know what I was talking about. So, the next therapist I had, uh, her name was Debbie.
Normally I don't say names, but I'm going to say hers because I hate her. She was a Christian therapist.
[33:35] Pen: That's such a different reason. I said Charlie's name and I liked him a lot, and you're like,
I'm going to put Debbie on blast.
[33:43] Harvey: Yeah, Debbie was a therapist selected by, um, one of my family members, and she was a
Christian therapist, and I had just come out as gay. Not trans, but I had just come out as gay, and she--the
entire time, she was a) trying to talk me out of being gay, and b) trying to talk me out of moving in with
my dad. And I never--that one never--that one did work, I did not move in with my dad. Um, but, and she-
-she was the--she was the one that, uh, broke confidentiality and told my mom things.
[34:17] Pen: [Pen groans.] That's--that is so obviously a therapist who is not interested in helping a
client, but rather furthering a--a goal that does not have to do with that client.
[34:32] Harvey: It's not a client-centered goal, it's a "this is what I think is right, and I'm going to point
them toward that goal." Which could be well-intentioned, but it doesn't have good consequences.
[34:42] Pen: Yeah, like, the--I think there is a difference between, like, working with your client on
something that both of you want, versus, like, especially if you are working with someone who has, like, a
personality disorder, where you are working on behaviors and things that can be, like, really self-
destructive, then there has to be kind of a focus on, you know, like, maybe you are looking for something
that your client isn't able to see right now. But that's still focused on primarily your client's improvement,
and, like, concern over what is best for them, not concern over what you think is best for them.
[35:18] Harvey: Trying to tell a thirteen-year-old to stop liking girls is not--is not, no.
[35:25] Pen: Like, that's not--that is different than someone who is dealing with, like, delusions, and, you
know, trying to work through them with that. Like, not necessarily validating, uh, the things that they are
thinking or experiencing that aren't, uh, that aren't true, that aren't happening in reality, like, you know,
like, there is a--there is a fine line to straddle there, and that's difficult, and you have to, like, not always
agree with what your client is saying, because sometimes they're saying things that can be harmful to
them.
[35:52] Harvey: But the--but the--you know, the response to that is not, "Well, that's not happening, why
on Earth are you thinking that?" It's--it's more coming from a place of understanding, like, the way I
would handle something like that is, like, "Yeah, that sounds really difficult to deal with. You know, why
are you thinking that way?" You know, like, "What's making you think that?"
[36:07] Pen: Yeah, like, that is--you know, like, validating them in the sense of, like, you know, caring
about how they feel and--caring.
[36:16] Harvey: Caring.
[36:16] Pen: Caring.
[36:17] Harvey: I was about to ask, yeah, do you--we have to wrap up soon, so do you have any ending
thoughts? Do you want to talk about caring?
[36:24] Pen: I can say that I have been able to tell--I have absolutely been able to tell when my therapists
really care about me as a person.
[36:32] Harvey: Yeah, me too.
[36:33] Pen: Uh, I have had therapists who, like, I don't know that we necessarily clicked perfectly, but,
you know, it was--it was amiable or whatever, and it's not that I don't think they didn't care, I just, like,
maybe we just--the way that we both worked was not the best for each other.
[36:49] Harvey: Maybe their therapeutic technique just didn't work for you.
[36:51] Pen: Yeah. But, you know, they still did their best, and I think did want the best for me, and I
have been able to tell when I'm working with a therapist who really, genuinely wants the best for me, no
matter what that means.
[37:06] Harvey: Yeah, it's quite obvious. It's quite obvious.
[37:09] Pen: If that means that I'm no longer working with them, that's fine. That doesn't matter. It's
about me doing better, whatever that looks like. And I have been able to tell when that's just sort of an
abstract goal, like, "Oh, yeah, no, totally--I want what's best for my client," versus, "I see you, Pen, and I
am here to work with you and make sure that you come out of this better, no matter what that looks like."
I've been able to tell when it's something where it's like "I want to connect with you as a person," versus
something that's kind of more intangible, and maybe I open up to you about my trauma and then you don't
say anything for twenty minutes, Patrick.
[37:48] Harvey: Oh, Patrick. Uh, you know, I--I think the closing thought that I have is this: if you are
searching for therapy, or you're in therapy right now, and maybe you're not sure about it. It's okay to shop
around for therapists. In fact, if you can afford it, I would encourage it, 'cause the fact of the matter is
regardless of, you know, CBT being the most common therapeutic method, at the end of the day, different
therapists are going to have slightly different variations on what that looks like, and some may use fully
different approaches. So, looking at that approaching and under--doing research on those approaches, and
understanding what works for you, is so important. The other thing that I want to say, and this is
something that you said, you know, I've been able to tell when my therapists want the best for me, even if
it's not seeing them anymore. If you--if your therapist is getting upset because you're thinking about
leaving, that's a red flag, and they're not a good therapist, and you should leave.
[38:45] Pen: Yeah, that's not--I would say, if you aren't sure about the therapist you currently have, that's
fine. That's normal. There's not a problem with that. Like, maybe they're a nice person, and you can tell
that they do, like, mean well, and so you feel a little guilty about looking for someone else. Sometimes
your methods just don't match up, and that's okay. You don't owe them anything, and if they are a
professional, and genuinely want the best for you, they're not going to be upset about you looking for
someone else. In fact, good odds they try to help you with that.
[39:17] Harvey: Yeah, yeah. A--a good therapist genuinely wants the best for you, whatever that looks
like, and that's what I aim to be as a therapist. I know that I'm going to take at least a partially, like,
humanistic approach. That's not going to work for everyone. Not everyone's gonna want to talk about
existentialism, and talk about our feelings, and let's accept those feelings. Some people are going to want
to get straight to the point, so I'm not going to work for everybody. But--
[39:43] Pen: That's okay.
[39:45] Harvey: That's okay. So, you know, I think the bottom line is, therapy is supposed to be about
you. You're supposed to leave therapy feeling better, in most cases. There are some times you're going to
go through something tough, and it's going to take you a while to get over, but--
[40:01] Pen: Feeling heard.
[40:03] Harvey: Feeling heard is important. If you don't feel heard, if you feel actively like your therapist
doesn't understand you, that's a problem, and you should listen to yourself.
[40:12] Pen: Yeah, like, listen to yourself, and whatever experiences you've had in therapy, like, there is--
your experiences with different therapists can be dramatically different, and that's okay, and that doesn't
mean, like, anything good or bad about you. That's just sort of how it works, 'cause they're just as much a
person as you are. And, also, um, just briefly, like, I am--I'm a big advocate for therapy, personally, not
that I have judgement calls on people who don't do therapy, just like, I think it can be very helpful,
regardless of whether or not you're diagnosed with something. I think just, like, processing your life, like,
everybody's got something to talk about, I think. And, uh, it can also be really difficult to afford, uh,
depending on what insurance you have or don't have. Uh, there are, depending where you're at,
sometimes, uh, community-based therapy things. Uh, because Harvey and I live in a University Town,
um, there is a community counseling, uh, training center through our university where you get therapy for
free, and the only caveat is, like, they're student therapists. But, I actually kind of like that because it
means that you have a sup--like, they have a supervisor and an instructor who you can, like, let them
know if something is going wrong, or, like, they're more likely, I think, to recognize that they don't know
everything. Uh, but, anyway, there are lots of different ways that you can get affordable therapy
depending on your location, and not everyone knows that. Not everyone knows that that's a thing.
[41:39] Harvey: Yes. That--that is true.
[41:41] Pen: Uh, so I wanted to include that. Like, if you want therapy, and you're not sure how to get it,
you can look things up, and there's--there's lots of places that really want to help.
[41:50] Harvey: I think that is a really excellent point, and I think that's a really good note to end off on.
So, hey, stick around for a couple more minutes, and we'll tell you a little bit more about how this podcast
is run. Beyond Introspection is an independently-run podcast by Pen Novus and Harvey LaFord. Music
by Girl Lloyd. You can find us on Twitter and Instagram at ByndPodcast, or you can email us at
beyonddot—that’s d-o-t—podcast@gmail.com. We publish on Buzzsprout, iTunes, Spotify, or wherever
you get your podcasts. You can find the link to our social media and email in the podcast description. Got
feedback for us? Feel free to reach out on social media or via email. We’d love to hear from everyone.
Take care of yourselves.
