Hayley: Welcome to Beyond Vision, the podcast exploring lived experiences, incredible achievements, and the stories that shape our world. I'm your host, Haley. In this episode I have the distinct privilege of sitting down with Lord David Blankett and speaking of his pioneering career in local government to serving as home secretary, education secretary, and and as a lifelong champion for accessibility, education and social reform. Lord Blunkett's public life has left an indispensable mark on modern British history. Today we dive into his remarkable journey, starting his education at a residential school for the blind at just the age of four years old, to enrolling in evening classes at the University of Sheffield To study politics and stepping into his early political career at the age of twenty two. We discuss his perspectives on leadership, public service, and his insights into breaking down barriers in society. Join us as we go Beyond Vision. How would you describe your visual impairment?
david: My optic nerve didn't develop, although it took quite a long time for the medics. Well bearing in mind we're now talking nineteen forty-seven. it took a long time for them to really diagnose what the problem was. In those days there was a great deal of blindness caused by the use of oxygen tents for premature babies. That wasn't me. There was a great worry about tumors on the brain. pr putting pressure on and affecting blindness. And they were investigating that from the age of three months. It was about three months when my parents really understood that I was following by hearing, but I wasn't following by sight. I wasn't following their movements
Hayley: Thank you.
david: in that way. I was following when I could hear a voice or something drop. And it took three years before they really decided that they weren't going to do any drastic operations on me and that it was a genetic fault that had occurred and there was nothing they could do about it. My my sight levels are the ability to see light and dark. Although like many people in my situation, it's dead easy to get mixed up between a window with the sun coming through and somebody having put the light on in in the room and I do get that quite often. But I can see enough usually walking into a room in in daytime to be able to orientate myself in that way, but not to be able to see physical attributes, for instance, of of family and friends.
Hayley: So you were born with sight loss?
david: I was born with sight loss and in many ways, depending on your own resilience and the support you get, it's much easier, I think, to cope with that emotionally, psychologically, than people who l lose their sight later in life. Although obviously being able to visualize things that you once were able to see, bringing those back mentally can can help. But I don't think it counterweights the emotional trauma of having to start again.
Hayley: Yeah. What are three words you would use to describe yourself and why?
david: belligerent, tenacious and kind. And b and belligerent because I've never taken no for an answer and I've always plowed on. Tenacious because when there's been ups and downs, I I've had the tenacity and perhaps the resilience to be able to counterweight that and to keep going. And kindness because my my politics, my values. are about what we do to each other, to other people. And not just theoretical, although I did study theoretical politics at university and I practiced politics what now for in the public arena for fifty five years. If you're not kind, then I think you lose the plot. You forget what it is that you came in to do.
Hayley: Yeah. I I do like watching debates in the House of P Lords and the House of Commons. I kinda find them very interesting. And
david: Yes, in the Commons they're much more robust because it's a it's but it's party political point scoring. In the in the Lords, they're much more genteel, sometimes sleepy, sometimes sometimes very informative, where you have people with real expertise, some of whom have come in as crossbenches, some through the political arena, but have got a lifetime of knowledge. And that does bring expertise to bear. I've sometimes just gone when I've not been speaking, I've just gone in and sat in the in the chamber and listened to the debate almost like a seminar, particularly on things that I'm not terribly familiar with, like artificial intelligence or the technicalities of carbon neutral and net zero.
Hayley: Yes. Growing up, how did your experience a visual impairment shape the way you grew up you grew up and understood the world around you?
david: Because I'd not been able to see, initially I think I presumed that nobody else could either. So it took a while and probably till I was four or five, before I realised that other people could see things and not only could they see them, but they could see at a very great distance, 'cause the danger, of course, if you're a blind child, and this would apply to all of us, I still sometimes forget, that somebody could be a hundred yards away and see you picking your nose, so You've actually you've actually got to be very careful to remember that.
Hayley: Yeah.
david: and because I never been able to see, I just got on with it. I learned tactile means of understanding what was happening around me. I it was more than just touch. Feel is touch, but it's much more than that. It's feeling the atmosphere, it's feel feeling the size of a room, it's feeling The sun on your face, it's it's feeling the atmosphere change, particularly in my business of meetings and seminars and conferences and around the cabinet table when I was a cabinet minister, just feeling how things have changed. And so putting touch and feel and the environment around me, the atmosphere around me together. Learning and listening from what other people's descriptions are giving me, because people very willingly, and I'm very happy about this, to give me descriptions of the world that I'm standing in. If I'm standing on a a hillside and there's trees and there's valleys and there's a stream running, and then I can start tuning in to the wind in the trees, to the stream, sound of the stream, to the sheep in the distance. And then I start to visualize in my own way. And I've often said to people, look, when people say to me, How do you see this person? Actually, I mean, I don't say to them, it's a stupid question. I say to them, I take the the nature of the voice, the approach, the way in which people are speaking. I don't just mean the tenure, the the tone of their voice, but actually whether they're they're shouting at you, whether they have a Quiet voice, their approach. And people say, Well, how do you know how tall somebody is? Well, you actually get a pretty good idea from where the sound's coming from. Although I have made mistakes. I once did say to a a longstanding friend who I knew was short, but I said, Why
Hayley: Mm-hmm.
david: don't you s why don't you stand up? He said, I am standing up.
Hayley: Yeah, I actually grew up with full vision until I was six. Then I was diagnosed with stargots. So it started deteriorating. I think around I was six years old. And I can't remember many things about it, but I remember and my mum often reminds me that s if there's no obstacle in the sign in your sight, then you can see very, very far, like miles or far.
david: Yeah. And does your your does your mum and others be able to remind you of things that then bring a flashback? Can can they re image things for you that you would have seen?
Hayley: Yeah, I well, I read braille and I remember reading in class as well. So I remember looking at the whiteboard. I remember one day going on a double decker bus and just in I wanna say kindergarten and suddenly telling my mum, actually I know how to read the words now, I actually understand things and then I think a few months later I was diagnosed. So
david: Goodness me. Well I'm glad I'm glad you were able to see that.
Hayley: How'd family respond to your visual impairment growing up?
david: I think my mum was very worried. I mean, she she did I don't mean put me in cotton wool because I had to go to a boarding school for the blind at the age of four. They didn't have any choice. It wasn't something they were asked about, whether I could go to the local school with support. They just said Davy can't see, therefore he will go to the residential school for the blind and he will go at the age of four and he will board there during the term time. You can come and see him once a month, and he can come home at the holidays. It was pretty horrendous, really. I think it took me a very long time emotionally to get over being at boarding school from the age of four. because although the they were called house mothers were very kind, they were only sixteen, seventeen, eighteen-year-olds, trying to provide us with some affection, trying to look after us in dormitories where Little boys are little boys and so the privacy, I had no privacy until I left the second school I went to, which was in Shropshire. The first school was in the south of Sheffield, some distance from my home, but it was in Sheffield and I could have gone home, you know, I could have got a taxi if they'd allowed it, every night to go home. In one sense, it did allow me to socialise. And it certainly meant that I had to learn to look after myself and the practicalities of not having sight, including learning to ri ride a two-rewheeler bike without absolutely crunching myself. I had loads of accidents, but in those days they let you do it. So I had to, you know, I roller skated onto a a grate in the in the schoolyard. That ended up with me in the children's hospital. I did all kinds of All kinds of things like that, which I think toughened me up. These days people be horrified on health and safety grounds. I can't possibly do that. But we had to do things to learn. we played cricket with a bell in the ball, we played football with ball bearings in the ball so you could hear it. And I loved that. I loved the sport. and I I was never very good at things like running, but I just loved be in the team sports. So That was something I probably would never have got had I gone to the local school, even with the support that children now get, but they didn't get in the past.
Hayley: Yeah. Were there any family or cultural expectations from anyone else who thought that visually impaired people could or could not do certain things?
david: Yeah, I didn't properly answer your question, did I? I mean, my dad was very not he wasn't sort of dismissive about it. I think he'd made a decision that come al hell or I water, he was gonna just treat me as though there wasn't a problem. So we'd go long walks. He worked shifts, so it was very difficult when I was home at the in the holidays. But we would go long walks, he would talk at great length to me. He'd not been formally educated beyond the age of fourteen in the Lincolnshire countryside before he joined the gas industry in Sheffield as a in his early twenties. but he he he'd read, he'd taught himself, and he I loved listening to him, and until his death at the age when he when I was twelve, sadly in a works accident. We we we rubbed along. I think my mum sometimes thought he was putting me in harm's way, but he never did. and he used to take me to football games at Chaffee Wednesday ground at Hillsborough, which was a couple of miles down the hill from where we lived, and I would sit on the the wall behind the goal at the top end and hear the hear the goalkeeper swearing. It was an introduction to swearing. as the as his b his his defenders weren't doing the job. Properly, and I've had a lifelong love of football and adherence to Sheffield Wednesday ever since. And his his introduction to current affairs and my grandfather lived with us because there was none of my mum's sim siblings would would look after him. So she was looking after him as well. He used to read me a newspaper that doesn't exist anymore called the Daily Herald. It was a left-of-center newspaper. supported by the trade unions. And I I think I probably picked up current affairs from there. And then from a history teacher when I was at the school in Shropshire. It was called the Royal Normal College. it's now a post sixteen college at Hereford rather than
Hayley: Yes.
david: where it was at Shrewsbury. I don't know you know it.
Hayley: RNC my friends go there.
david: Yes. And now it now it's a post sixteen adult college. and it's now called the Royal National College for the Blind. Normal was French for teacher training in the nineteenth century, and that's where that came from. But it was miles away. It was on the border of Wales, outside Shrewsbury. And you know, it was quite isolated, so we had to make our own way. And at sixteen we decided there was a little group of us, four or five of us. Who decided that we weren't going to go anywhere in the world unless we got some qualifications in the academic field. So we we used we started going to evening class at the local technical college in in Shrewsbury, with some support from some teachers. One fantastic teacher, Wolf King, who I'd known at Sheffield. He moved from Sheffield to the Royal National Col Normal College. And he used to come down. one night a week for nine months to help me get O level now G C S E but O level physics, which I'd never have got otherwise. I still don't know how I got it actually, Haley, because I didn't I I knew enough to write in a way that persuaded the examiner to give me a pass. It wasn't a great pass, but it was a pass. And I was pretty good at other things like history and English. geography. So I did pretty well in those subjects. And that gave me a foothold. If I hadn't passed those early qualifications, who knows? I might not have had the the the the strength and the gall and the what we we said earlier, the tenacity to have kept going.
Hayley: Yeah. Do you think your y your late on university degree also helped really t for your political career?
david: Yes, it did. I mean I I was I it's it's a it's very odd to think back on it now because I do wonder how on earth did I do all this? I I seriously do think back. Goodness me, it was at the price of a of a proper social life, by the way, because as when I was a cabinet minister, I had to put in the time. I had to just put all the hours in, evenings, weekends, to do it. But I was I was at university, and after the first year I was elected to Sheffield City Council. So I was on the council, the city council, it was a big local authority, over half a million population. We had in those days enormous powers that local government doesn't have anymore. And I was studying at the same time. So I was reading theory, Marx. John Stuart Mill, Rousseau. I was studying parliament and political institutions and all of that. And at the same time, I was turning up at council meetings and arguing about the the what was happening in social services or education. So I was getting a a dual education, if you like, at the same time. That did stand me. Both of those stood me in very good stead when I entered Parliament and still does. I'm still able to. Pull out of the air things that I learnt all those years ago.
Hayley: Well, that's incredible how you balanced studies and political your political career so early on. Wha in terms of support and special like accommodation, did you receive any from I know you went to boarding school from the age of four until and then what is now known as R and C was there any like special accommodations they gave?
david: Well, the the two things that you gained was learning to read braille and tactile arithmetic. And the other thing you learnt was that mobility, that fending for yourself, except when it came to day to day domestic issues. When I was at the RNC, let's call it the RNC, I my early political teeth were cut. In leading a protest to the head teacher. A number of us had just had enough of the absolutely lousy food. We'd had enough of things just being done for us. So we never served our own meals, including the cornflakes and putting the milk on or making your own tea. It was all done out of the tea was out of impossibly horrible urns. You can imagine how vile it must have been. and so we were saying two things. One, we want to learn to do things for ourselves. This is remarkable when you think about it. This is us saying we've got to live in the world out there and we we wanna be taught. Now, of course, that happens now. Th those of your friends at the RNC will be getting that kind of not just mobility training, but they'll be getting dom what we used to call domestic science. They'll be getting life skills as well. But we didn't. So we were arguing for it. And the second thing we were arguing for was
Hayley: Yeah.
david: could we have something that's edible and could we not have
Hayley: Okay.
david: sausages four times a week for main meals, which is what really triggered the sem the mini revolution that we engaged in at school. And we did get them to improve slightly the food, and we did get them to put teapots and milk on the table and allow us to learn the pretty basic skill. Of having to pour things without pouring it all over the table, although I suspect looking back there were some pretty horrendous accidents.
Hayley: and for your evening classes, how do they accommodate for you? Because obviously let's say Sheffield University is not a all blind school.
david: No, the university were I mean the college that I went to at evening class on day release just did their best. I mean there was no internet, there was no downloading by computer or organized transcription braille. So a lot of it was haphazard. The university were helpful in terms of finding me a small room where I could listen to what was then real to real tapes, later cassettes. and one of the things we we did was to put together a reading circle. Now this turned out to be very beneficial for other students because I've taught in university since, and their reading list is much, much less than it was when I went to university in nineteen sixty-nine. We had a very long reading list, and there wasn't a chance in hell that I was going to get through it all. Firstly Because quite a lot of the books that were available from the the Brel, the R I B Braille Library were completely out of date. And secondly, because the there was no, as I said, there's no immediate transcription service that could just churn the books out like the RIB can do today. So the other students agreed that they would form a reading circle, and the lecturers agreed that they would. allow me to know the crucial books, the crucial chapters, the crucial journals that I really needed to know for writing the essays and for the preparation. And because I knew, the other students got to know. So it was a two way deal. It was reciprocity at its best. I they they helped me and I helped them. I think that's a great lesson for life.
Hayley: Very good deal, I think, for the students.
david: Yeah. And for me. So it worked. It worked. And I did get the university because there was no disability students allowance in those days. I did get the the university to pay someone to do some formal reading onto tape for me, onto the old fashioned tapes.
Hayley: And for in your career in your later life and your work and daily life, was there any s accommodation or modifications they did to make it more accessible?
david: Well, I got a job working in a college of technology outside Sheffield while I was a counsellor. I persuaded the council to be helpful, again in terms of getting material read for me. I abused the good nature of my then wife. I think it in the end probably contributed to us b going our separate ways later because whilst at the time I hadn't realized what a burden this was on her. She she did take quite a lot on reading at the weekends, particularly when I was marking essays. And these days you'd have a formal professional reader that could be paid for by access to work funding from the Department of Work and Pensions. It's not great, but it's there and it's a lot better. And of course, as I said, you you've got young people like you will be expert in a way I'm not. At using the internet and downloading. I'm absolutely useless, but I'm fully in favor of the way in which technology is developing and what that means and the openings that that gives. So, you know, I would have in university and then on the city council, but not when I got in parliament. I had to rely on, you know, make make amend. When I got into parliament, I'd made the decision that I wouldn't do it unless they came up with a sufficient support package to make it work. Again, there was no access to work funding. And colleagues around me said, Well, you know, you seem you're you know, we you're asking a lot. I said, No, I'm not. I'm asking what I need to put me on equal terms. So I'll just tell you this very quick story because we're running out of Time early, and then we you'll need to move on to what it was like in government. But I said to them, right, set up a little group to review what I've suggested. It took nine months before they, I had to just manage in those nine months, before this review group of MPs from the Commons and a couple of members of the House of Lords reported back. To say that what I'd originally requested was very reasonable. It wasn't over the top. And they granted me the capital, the funds to invest in a Braille Braille transcriber and the early computers that were just emerging, and reading support, so additional staff. And that made all the difference in the world to me being able to work on equal terms. And I knew it had to, because it wasn't just for me. This was about people seeing a blind person doing a public job. And if I'd failed, the message that went out would have been the very opposite of the one that I was trying to establish. The the I think the best thing, I've said this before publicly, the best thing I've ever done in my life, with all the things I'm proud of in terms of policy, education, home office and beyond, is actually saying to youngsters. parents with young disabled children to employers thinking about employing a disabled person or just social life. Honestly, we can do it. We can work on equal terms. We're just individuals, good, bad and indifferent. And just treat us equally. And if you're worried, just ask. Just say, can I be of assistance? What would help? rather than presuming Or walking away, because you get both. People presume that they know best. Or they walk away because they're embarrassed and they don't know how to do it.
Hayley: Yeah, so moving on to your work, especially in the House of Commons and House of Lords, what led you to current profess profession and who has inspired you the most in your life?
david: I think those early days of my bad dad's death and the inequality that was writ large there and the the the the way in which my mum had to struggle, including to try and get even minimal compensation, that that affected me. And the reading of history I had a history teacher who I think, you know, we we co we sort of thought was a bit of a communist, but his grasp of history. inspired me to know that people ha had brought about change, not by sitting on their bums waiting for somebody else, but by getting involved and arguing for and struggling for change in the past. And that that's what I needed to do. And that got me not only involved in listening to the radio, getting involved in understanding current affairs, but believing that it might be possible if I joined a political party to to do something. And so by the age of Sixteen seventeen, I jo I joined the Labour Party, because that was the nearest to my views that I could I could work out and started the journey. And you know, the journey in the House of Commons was rough and tumble, you know, showing people that I could manage, that I could do it. Still skeptical, you know, people even though I'd ch I'd led Sheffield and I'd become a figure on the national. political stage because of becoming a member of Labour's National Executive Committee, there was still skepticism, can this guy really do it? Sometimes genuine because they didn't know, sometimes because subliminally, I think they thought, you know, why aren't I being promoted to the shadow cabinet? Why why is he the one who thinks he can become a minister? What about me? I can see. And I used to smile a little at that. And think I'm just gonna do it. I'm just gonna carry on and do it. And Tony Blair gave me the opportunity initially to to take on the role I really loved, which was education and then employment together with it. And then of course it was up to me to be able to drive through and show that I could do it. And never ever to want sympathy or for people to ever say that I. I hadn't done something well because I couldn't see. It drove me almost to the point of distraction. I mean, sometimes I overdid it. You know, that that work-life
Hayley: Yeah.
david: balance that we all need. So I s looking back, I was slightly overdoing the driven bit to show people that I was never going to falter with facts. Although obviously I made mistakes. And so does everybody else.
Hayley: Yeah. What challenge, turning point or defining moment helped you shape who you are today?
david: Partly the belief first of my dad and then later my mum in me. partly the opportunity that other people offered me, both in terms of helping me to get those qualifications and the cho the giving giving me the chance, the people who selected me for that seat in Sheffield, for the seat in Sheffield City Council. And later in Parliament. Those people took a chance on in in the initial stage, a very young man who couldn't see, well, give him a chance to sh to show he can do it. That was a a massive turning point. And then obviously in Parliament and and building a reputation in Parliament. And then my job was to show that I really could, to repay. confidence and the compliment by doing it. And I you asked me at the beginning about how would I describe myself. I I didn't say this, but I probably ought to. A bit arrogant, Haley. I mean, you have to be a bit arrogant to believe that you can do things that other people aren't doing, or you believe that you can do it better, or you believe you can perform on the public stage. You you have to have a touch of arrogance. And you have to modify
Hayley: Yeah.
david: it a bit, not just because arrogance is not a very endearing quality, but also
Hayley: Mm-hmm.
david: because if you get up other people's noses, they can't half get their own back on you.
Hayley: Yes. What is something about you? For example, an ex unexpected hobby, talent, interest or personal trait that people might not always expect.
david: I love poetry. I've always loved poetry. I I used to write a bit in the difficult days of being home secretary. People say that you know, great emotion or pressure or difficulty can bring that kind of talent out in you. I wouldn't publish them, by the way, but I enjoyed writing those poems and I love Philip Larkin and Christina Rossetti. and walking in the countryside. love nature. It's restorative. It's not only refreshing and gives you exercise, but I think it also renews your spirit and your soul. So I I love doing that. And, you know, on a personal level I just love being with family and friends eating dinner. As we're recording this, I've just had a spell of being on the wagon of not drinking alcohol, but that's not a permanent issue because I've got a wine cooler full of some excellent red wine and I'm every intention of drinking it.
Hayley: Yes. Yeah. What is one public misconception about blind or visually impaired people that you would might most like to challenge?
david: I think the the greatest misconception is that blind people don't know what's best for them. So if you're walking along and you want to help somebody with their mobility if they want to cross a road, always ask them. Because they'll they'll get it. They'll understand. You can hear my dog barley. I have a guide dog. I've had a guide dog since I was twenty two. Not the same when I've had seven, otherwise there'd be a gene. Otherwise we really
Hayley: Yes.
david: would be in tellian Internationally renowned. this dog is 10 years old. He's caught Bali, he's a cross between a German Shepherd and a Golden Retriever, and he's great. and I'm but you know, I'm lucky in that sense because people can see the dog and they know I can't see, and they they usually respond to the dog even if they don't talk to me. But the message you asked me, just just think, what would I want if I couldn't see? And it wouldn't w it wouldn't be patronizing, it wouldn't be presuming, it would be just to say, what's the best way I can help? And sometimes we all need help in a railway station particularly, but you know, crossing a busy road. And I learnt in my early twenties to accept help. When I was in my late teens, early twenties, I used to think I could do it all. But sometimes, particularly now, all these years on, things are busier, more difficult. And knowing when to accept help and other people knowing when to offer it is the trick. Haley, thank you so much for this and for what you're doing. And this is not patronizing because I wouldn't dare. But my goodness me, you've got a talent. You've got a talent for asking the right questions, not just for doing the podcast. I would think about broadcast journalism if I were you.
Hayley: That is very kind of you to say. I think I'll go into I'm currently actually considering advocacy work.
david: Well, you'd be good at that because you have empathy. You can get people talking. Look how much you've got me talking. So well done, Haley. Thank you so much. But but never
Hayley: Thank you. Thanks so much.
david: never take no for an answer, but stick at the studies. Because in the end, grind and grind is as it is, it's worth it.
Hayley: Thank you.
david: My optic nerve didn't develop, although it took quite a long time for the medics. Well bearing in mind we're now talking nineteen forty-seven. it took a long time for them to really diagnose what the problem was. In those days there was a great deal of blindness caused by the use of oxygen tents for premature babies. That wasn't me. There was a great worry about tumors on the brain. pr putting pressure on and affecting blindness. And they were investigating that from the age of three months. It was about three months when my parents really understood that I was following by hearing, but I wasn't following by sight. I wasn't following their movements
Hayley: Thank you.
david: in that way. I was following when I could hear a voice or something drop. And it took three years before they really decided that they weren't going to do any drastic operations on me and that it was a genetic fault that had occurred and there was nothing they could do about it. My my sight levels are the ability to see light and dark. Although like many people in my situation, it's dead easy to get mixed up between a window with the sun coming through and somebody having put the light on in in the room and I do get that quite often. But I can see enough usually walking into a room in in daytime to be able to orientate myself in that way, but not to be able to see physical attributes, for instance, of of family and friends.
Hayley: So you were born with sight loss?
david: I was born with sight loss and in many ways, depending on your own resilience and the support you get, it's much easier, I think, to cope with that emotionally, psychologically, than people who l lose their sight later in life. Although obviously being able to visualize things that you once were able to see, bringing those back mentally can can help. But I don't think it counterweights the emotional trauma of having to start again.
Hayley: Yeah. What are three words you would use to describe yourself and why?
david: belligerent, tenacious and kind. And b and belligerent because I've never taken no for an answer and I've always plowed on. Tenacious because when there's been ups and downs, I I've had the tenacity and perhaps the resilience to be able to counterweight that and to keep going. And kindness because my my politics, my values. are about what we do to each other, to other people. And not just theoretical, although I did study theoretical politics at university and I practiced politics what now for in the public arena for fifty five years. If you're not kind, then I think you lose the plot. You forget what it is that you came in to do.
Hayley: Yeah. I I do like watching debates in the House of P Lords and the House of Commons. I kinda find them very interesting. And
david: Yes, in the Commons they're much more robust because it's a it's but it's party political point scoring. In the in the Lords, they're much more genteel, sometimes sleepy, sometimes sometimes very informative, where you have people with real expertise, some of whom have come in as crossbenches, some through the political arena, but have got a lifetime of knowledge. And that does bring expertise to bear. I've sometimes just gone when I've not been speaking, I've just gone in and sat in the in the chamber and listened to the debate almost like a seminar, particularly on things that I'm not terribly familiar with, like artificial intelligence or the technicalities of carbon neutral and net zero.
Hayley: Yes. Growing up, how did your experience a visual impairment shape the way you grew up you grew up and understood the world around you?
david: Because I'd not been able to see, initially I think I presumed that nobody else could either. So it took a while and probably till I was four or five, before I realised that other people could see things and not only could they see them, but they could see at a very great distance, 'cause the danger, of course, if you're a blind child, and this would apply to all of us, I still sometimes forget, that somebody could be a hundred yards away and see you picking your nose, so You've actually you've actually got to be very careful to remember that.
Hayley: Yeah.
david: and because I never been able to see, I just got on with it. I learned tactile means of understanding what was happening around me. I it was more than just touch. Feel is touch, but it's much more than that. It's feeling the atmosphere, it's feel feeling the size of a room, it's feeling The sun on your face, it's it's feeling the atmosphere change, particularly in my business of meetings and seminars and conferences and around the cabinet table when I was a cabinet minister, just feeling how things have changed. And so putting touch and feel and the environment around me, the atmosphere around me together. Learning and listening from what other people's descriptions are giving me, because people very willingly, and I'm very happy about this, to give me descriptions of the world that I'm standing in. If I'm standing on a a hillside and there's trees and there's valleys and there's a stream running, and then I can start tuning in to the wind in the trees, to the stream, sound of the stream, to the sheep in the distance. And then I start to visualize in my own way. And I've often said to people, look, when people say to me, How do you see this person? Actually, I mean, I don't say to them, it's a stupid question. I say to them, I take the the nature of the voice, the approach, the way in which people are speaking. I don't just mean the tenure, the the tone of their voice, but actually whether they're they're shouting at you, whether they have a Quiet voice, their approach. And people say, Well, how do you know how tall somebody is? Well, you actually get a pretty good idea from where the sound's coming from. Although I have made mistakes. I once did say to a a longstanding friend who I knew was short, but I said, Why
Hayley: Mm-hmm.
david: don't you s why don't you stand up? He said, I am standing up.
Hayley: Yeah, I actually grew up with full vision until I was six. Then I was diagnosed with stargots. So it started deteriorating. I think around I was six years old. And I can't remember many things about it, but I remember and my mum often reminds me that s if there's no obstacle in the sign in your sight, then you can see very, very far, like miles or far.
david: Yeah. And does your your does your mum and others be able to remind you of things that then bring a flashback? Can can they re image things for you that you would have seen?
Hayley: Yeah, I well, I read braille and I remember reading in class as well. So I remember looking at the whiteboard. I remember one day going on a double decker bus and just in I wanna say kindergarten and suddenly telling my mum, actually I know how to read the words now, I actually understand things and then I think a few months later I was diagnosed. So
david: Goodness me. Well I'm glad I'm glad you were able to see that.
Hayley: How'd family respond to your visual impairment growing up?
david: I think my mum was very worried. I mean, she she did I don't mean put me in cotton wool because I had to go to a boarding school for the blind at the age of four. They didn't have any choice. It wasn't something they were asked about, whether I could go to the local school with support. They just said Davy can't see, therefore he will go to the residential school for the blind and he will go at the age of four and he will board there during the term time. You can come and see him once a month, and he can come home at the holidays. It was pretty horrendous, really. I think it took me a very long time emotionally to get over being at boarding school from the age of four. because although the they were called house mothers were very kind, they were only sixteen, seventeen, eighteen-year-olds, trying to provide us with some affection, trying to look after us in dormitories where Little boys are little boys and so the privacy, I had no privacy until I left the second school I went to, which was in Shropshire. The first school was in the south of Sheffield, some distance from my home, but it was in Sheffield and I could have gone home, you know, I could have got a taxi if they'd allowed it, every night to go home. In one sense, it did allow me to socialise. And it certainly meant that I had to learn to look after myself and the practicalities of not having sight, including learning to ri ride a two-rewheeler bike without absolutely crunching myself. I had loads of accidents, but in those days they let you do it. So I had to, you know, I roller skated onto a a grate in the in the schoolyard. That ended up with me in the children's hospital. I did all kinds of All kinds of things like that, which I think toughened me up. These days people be horrified on health and safety grounds. I can't possibly do that. But we had to do things to learn. we played cricket with a bell in the ball, we played football with ball bearings in the ball so you could hear it. And I loved that. I loved the sport. and I I was never very good at things like running, but I just loved be in the team sports. So That was something I probably would never have got had I gone to the local school, even with the support that children now get, but they didn't get in the past.
Hayley: Yeah. Were there any family or cultural expectations from anyone else who thought that visually impaired people could or could not do certain things?
david: Yeah, I didn't properly answer your question, did I? I mean, my dad was very not he wasn't sort of dismissive about it. I think he'd made a decision that come al hell or I water, he was gonna just treat me as though there wasn't a problem. So we'd go long walks. He worked shifts, so it was very difficult when I was home at the in the holidays. But we would go long walks, he would talk at great length to me. He'd not been formally educated beyond the age of fourteen in the Lincolnshire countryside before he joined the gas industry in Sheffield as a in his early twenties. but he he he'd read, he'd taught himself, and he I loved listening to him, and until his death at the age when he when I was twelve, sadly in a works accident. We we we rubbed along. I think my mum sometimes thought he was putting me in harm's way, but he never did. and he used to take me to football games at Chaffee Wednesday ground at Hillsborough, which was a couple of miles down the hill from where we lived, and I would sit on the the wall behind the goal at the top end and hear the hear the goalkeeper swearing. It was an introduction to swearing. as the as his b his his defenders weren't doing the job. Properly, and I've had a lifelong love of football and adherence to Sheffield Wednesday ever since. And his his introduction to current affairs and my grandfather lived with us because there was none of my mum's sim siblings would would look after him. So she was looking after him as well. He used to read me a newspaper that doesn't exist anymore called the Daily Herald. It was a left-of-center newspaper. supported by the trade unions. And I I think I probably picked up current affairs from there. And then from a history teacher when I was at the school in Shropshire. It was called the Royal Normal College. it's now a post sixteen college at Hereford rather than
Hayley: Yes.
david: where it was at Shrewsbury. I don't know you know it.
Hayley: RNC my friends go there.
david: Yes. And now it now it's a post sixteen adult college. and it's now called the Royal National College for the Blind. Normal was French for teacher training in the nineteenth century, and that's where that came from. But it was miles away. It was on the border of Wales, outside Shrewsbury. And you know, it was quite isolated, so we had to make our own way. And at sixteen we decided there was a little group of us, four or five of us. Who decided that we weren't going to go anywhere in the world unless we got some qualifications in the academic field. So we we used we started going to evening class at the local technical college in in Shrewsbury, with some support from some teachers. One fantastic teacher, Wolf King, who I'd known at Sheffield. He moved from Sheffield to the Royal National Col Normal College. And he used to come down. one night a week for nine months to help me get O level now G C S E but O level physics, which I'd never have got otherwise. I still don't know how I got it actually, Haley, because I didn't I I knew enough to write in a way that persuaded the examiner to give me a pass. It wasn't a great pass, but it was a pass. And I was pretty good at other things like history and English. geography. So I did pretty well in those subjects. And that gave me a foothold. If I hadn't passed those early qualifications, who knows? I might not have had the the the the strength and the gall and the what we we said earlier, the tenacity to have kept going.
Hayley: Yeah. Do you think your y your late on university degree also helped really t for your political career?
david: Yes, it did. I mean I I was I it's it's a it's very odd to think back on it now because I do wonder how on earth did I do all this? I I seriously do think back. Goodness me, it was at the price of a of a proper social life, by the way, because as when I was a cabinet minister, I had to put in the time. I had to just put all the hours in, evenings, weekends, to do it. But I was I was at university, and after the first year I was elected to Sheffield City Council. So I was on the council, the city council, it was a big local authority, over half a million population. We had in those days enormous powers that local government doesn't have anymore. And I was studying at the same time. So I was reading theory, Marx. John Stuart Mill, Rousseau. I was studying parliament and political institutions and all of that. And at the same time, I was turning up at council meetings and arguing about the the what was happening in social services or education. So I was getting a a dual education, if you like, at the same time. That did stand me. Both of those stood me in very good stead when I entered Parliament and still does. I'm still able to. Pull out of the air things that I learnt all those years ago.
Hayley: Well, that's incredible how you balanced studies and political your political career so early on. Wha in terms of support and special like accommodation, did you receive any from I know you went to boarding school from the age of four until and then what is now known as R and C was there any like special accommodations they gave?
david: Well, the the two things that you gained was learning to read braille and tactile arithmetic. And the other thing you learnt was that mobility, that fending for yourself, except when it came to day to day domestic issues. When I was at the RNC, let's call it the RNC, I my early political teeth were cut. In leading a protest to the head teacher. A number of us had just had enough of the absolutely lousy food. We'd had enough of things just being done for us. So we never served our own meals, including the cornflakes and putting the milk on or making your own tea. It was all done out of the tea was out of impossibly horrible urns. You can imagine how vile it must have been. and so we were saying two things. One, we want to learn to do things for ourselves. This is remarkable when you think about it. This is us saying we've got to live in the world out there and we we wanna be taught. Now, of course, that happens now. Th those of your friends at the RNC will be getting that kind of not just mobility training, but they'll be getting dom what we used to call domestic science. They'll be getting life skills as well. But we didn't. So we were arguing for it. And the second thing we were arguing for was
Hayley: Yeah.
david: could we have something that's edible and could we not have
Hayley: Okay.
david: sausages four times a week for main meals, which is what really triggered the sem the mini revolution that we engaged in at school. And we did get them to improve slightly the food, and we did get them to put teapots and milk on the table and allow us to learn the pretty basic skill. Of having to pour things without pouring it all over the table, although I suspect looking back there were some pretty horrendous accidents.
Hayley: and for your evening classes, how do they accommodate for you? Because obviously let's say Sheffield University is not a all blind school.
david: No, the university were I mean the college that I went to at evening class on day release just did their best. I mean there was no internet, there was no downloading by computer or organized transcription braille. So a lot of it was haphazard. The university were helpful in terms of finding me a small room where I could listen to what was then real to real tapes, later cassettes. and one of the things we we did was to put together a reading circle. Now this turned out to be very beneficial for other students because I've taught in university since, and their reading list is much, much less than it was when I went to university in nineteen sixty-nine. We had a very long reading list, and there wasn't a chance in hell that I was going to get through it all. Firstly Because quite a lot of the books that were available from the the Brel, the R I B Braille Library were completely out of date. And secondly, because the there was no, as I said, there's no immediate transcription service that could just churn the books out like the RIB can do today. So the other students agreed that they would form a reading circle, and the lecturers agreed that they would. allow me to know the crucial books, the crucial chapters, the crucial journals that I really needed to know for writing the essays and for the preparation. And because I knew, the other students got to know. So it was a two way deal. It was reciprocity at its best. I they they helped me and I helped them. I think that's a great lesson for life.
Hayley: Very good deal, I think, for the students.
david: Yeah. And for me. So it worked. It worked. And I did get the university because there was no disability students allowance in those days. I did get the the university to pay someone to do some formal reading onto tape for me, onto the old fashioned tapes.
Hayley: And for in your career in your later life and your work and daily life, was there any s accommodation or modifications they did to make it more accessible?
david: Well, I got a job working in a college of technology outside Sheffield while I was a counsellor. I persuaded the council to be helpful, again in terms of getting material read for me. I abused the good nature of my then wife. I think it in the end probably contributed to us b going our separate ways later because whilst at the time I hadn't realized what a burden this was on her. She she did take quite a lot on reading at the weekends, particularly when I was marking essays. And these days you'd have a formal professional reader that could be paid for by access to work funding from the Department of Work and Pensions. It's not great, but it's there and it's a lot better. And of course, as I said, you you've got young people like you will be expert in a way I'm not. At using the internet and downloading. I'm absolutely useless, but I'm fully in favor of the way in which technology is developing and what that means and the openings that that gives. So, you know, I would have in university and then on the city council, but not when I got in parliament. I had to rely on, you know, make make amend. When I got into parliament, I'd made the decision that I wouldn't do it unless they came up with a sufficient support package to make it work. Again, there was no access to work funding. And colleagues around me said, Well, you know, you seem you're you know, we you're asking a lot. I said, No, I'm not. I'm asking what I need to put me on equal terms. So I'll just tell you this very quick story because we're running out of Time early, and then we you'll need to move on to what it was like in government. But I said to them, right, set up a little group to review what I've suggested. It took nine months before they, I had to just manage in those nine months, before this review group of MPs from the Commons and a couple of members of the House of Lords reported back. To say that what I'd originally requested was very reasonable. It wasn't over the top. And they granted me the capital, the funds to invest in a Braille Braille transcriber and the early computers that were just emerging, and reading support, so additional staff. And that made all the difference in the world to me being able to work on equal terms. And I knew it had to, because it wasn't just for me. This was about people seeing a blind person doing a public job. And if I'd failed, the message that went out would have been the very opposite of the one that I was trying to establish. The the I think the best thing, I've said this before publicly, the best thing I've ever done in my life, with all the things I'm proud of in terms of policy, education, home office and beyond, is actually saying to youngsters. parents with young disabled children to employers thinking about employing a disabled person or just social life. Honestly, we can do it. We can work on equal terms. We're just individuals, good, bad and indifferent. And just treat us equally. And if you're worried, just ask. Just say, can I be of assistance? What would help? rather than presuming Or walking away, because you get both. People presume that they know best. Or they walk away because they're embarrassed and they don't know how to do it.
Hayley: Yeah, so moving on to your work, especially in the House of Commons and House of Lords, what led you to current profess profession and who has inspired you the most in your life?
david: I think those early days of my bad dad's death and the inequality that was writ large there and the the the the way in which my mum had to struggle, including to try and get even minimal compensation, that that affected me. And the reading of history I had a history teacher who I think, you know, we we co we sort of thought was a bit of a communist, but his grasp of history. inspired me to know that people ha had brought about change, not by sitting on their bums waiting for somebody else, but by getting involved and arguing for and struggling for change in the past. And that that's what I needed to do. And that got me not only involved in listening to the radio, getting involved in understanding current affairs, but believing that it might be possible if I joined a political party to to do something. And so by the age of Sixteen seventeen, I jo I joined the Labour Party, because that was the nearest to my views that I could I could work out and started the journey. And you know, the journey in the House of Commons was rough and tumble, you know, showing people that I could manage, that I could do it. Still skeptical, you know, people even though I'd ch I'd led Sheffield and I'd become a figure on the national. political stage because of becoming a member of Labour's National Executive Committee, there was still skepticism, can this guy really do it? Sometimes genuine because they didn't know, sometimes because subliminally, I think they thought, you know, why aren't I being promoted to the shadow cabinet? Why why is he the one who thinks he can become a minister? What about me? I can see. And I used to smile a little at that. And think I'm just gonna do it. I'm just gonna carry on and do it. And Tony Blair gave me the opportunity initially to to take on the role I really loved, which was education and then employment together with it. And then of course it was up to me to be able to drive through and show that I could do it. And never ever to want sympathy or for people to ever say that I. I hadn't done something well because I couldn't see. It drove me almost to the point of distraction. I mean, sometimes I overdid it. You know, that that work-life
Hayley: Yeah.
david: balance that we all need. So I s looking back, I was slightly overdoing the driven bit to show people that I was never going to falter with facts. Although obviously I made mistakes. And so does everybody else.
Hayley: Yeah. What challenge, turning point or defining moment helped you shape who you are today?
david: Partly the belief first of my dad and then later my mum in me. partly the opportunity that other people offered me, both in terms of helping me to get those qualifications and the cho the giving giving me the chance, the people who selected me for that seat in Sheffield, for the seat in Sheffield City Council. And later in Parliament. Those people took a chance on in in the initial stage, a very young man who couldn't see, well, give him a chance to sh to show he can do it. That was a a massive turning point. And then obviously in Parliament and and building a reputation in Parliament. And then my job was to show that I really could, to repay. confidence and the compliment by doing it. And I you asked me at the beginning about how would I describe myself. I I didn't say this, but I probably ought to. A bit arrogant, Haley. I mean, you have to be a bit arrogant to believe that you can do things that other people aren't doing, or you believe that you can do it better, or you believe you can perform on the public stage. You you have to have a touch of arrogance. And you have to modify
Hayley: Yeah.
david: it a bit, not just because arrogance is not a very endearing quality, but also
Hayley: Mm-hmm.
david: because if you get up other people's noses, they can't half get their own back on you.
Hayley: Yes. What is something about you? For example, an ex unexpected hobby, talent, interest or personal trait that people might not always expect.
david: I love poetry. I've always loved poetry. I I used to write a bit in the difficult days of being home secretary. People say that you know, great emotion or pressure or difficulty can bring that kind of talent out in you. I wouldn't publish them, by the way, but I enjoyed writing those poems and I love Philip Larkin and Christina Rossetti. and walking in the countryside. love nature. It's restorative. It's not only refreshing and gives you exercise, but I think it also renews your spirit and your soul. So I I love doing that. And, you know, on a personal level I just love being with family and friends eating dinner. As we're recording this, I've just had a spell of being on the wagon of not drinking alcohol, but that's not a permanent issue because I've got a wine cooler full of some excellent red wine and I'm every intention of drinking it.
Hayley: Yes. Yeah. What is one public misconception about blind or visually impaired people that you would might most like to challenge?
david: I think the the greatest misconception is that blind people don't know what's best for them. So if you're walking along and you want to help somebody with their mobility if they want to cross a road, always ask them. Because they'll they'll get it. They'll understand. You can hear my dog barley. I have a guide dog. I've had a guide dog since I was twenty two. Not the same when I've had seven, otherwise there'd be a gene. Otherwise we really
Hayley: Yes.
david: would be in tellian Internationally renowned. this dog is 10 years old. He's caught Bali, he's a cross between a German Shepherd and a Golden Retriever, and he's great. and I'm but you know, I'm lucky in that sense because people can see the dog and they know I can't see, and they they usually respond to the dog even if they don't talk to me. But the message you asked me, just just think, what would I want if I couldn't see? And it wouldn't w it wouldn't be patronizing, it wouldn't be presuming, it would be just to say, what's the best way I can help? And sometimes we all need help in a railway station particularly, but you know, crossing a busy road. And I learnt in my early twenties to accept help. When I was in my late teens, early twenties, I used to think I could do it all. But sometimes, particularly now, all these years on, things are busier, more difficult. And knowing when to accept help and other people knowing when to offer it is the trick. Haley, thank you so much for this and for what you're doing. And this is not patronizing because I wouldn't dare. But my goodness me, you've got a talent. You've got a talent for asking the right questions, not just for doing the podcast. I would think about broadcast journalism if I were you.
Hayley: That is very kind of you to say. I think I'll go into I'm currently actually considering advocacy work.
david: Well, you'd be good at that because you have empathy. You can get people talking. Look how much you've got me talking. So well done, Haley. Thank you so much. But but never
Hayley: Thank you. Thanks so much.
david: never take no for an answer, but stick at the studies. Because in the end, grind and grind is as it is, it's worth it.
Hayley: Thank you.
