WEBVTT
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Welcome to Beyond the Spire, a podcast of the Save Our Sacred Suns project here in Preston at the Catholic Shrine of St.
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Wahburg, supported by the National Lottery.
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In each episode, we go beyond what you see from the street.
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We explore the story and the sound of Gregory and chant the church's own voice so that this treasure of faith and culture is not just preserved, but lived and loved again.
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I am Canon Bennens.
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Whether you are a musician, a member of a parish choir, or simply someone curious about the Catholic faith heritage, you came to the right place.
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Let's begin.
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In today's episode, we will talk about organ and Gregor mentioned, and I am very pleased to have as our guest Christian Spence here.
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Hello, Christian.
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Hello, Kellen.
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How are you?
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I'm well, thank you.
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It's a great pleasure to be here.
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Thank you for coming from New Brighton.
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But you said to me before the episode started that you are from Lancashire.
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So you're not far away from home here.
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I'm not.
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I was born in Wigan too many years ago to remember.
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But yes, it's always always great joy to come back to Lancashire.
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Very good.
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So you're an organist.
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Yes.
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And you are uh also interested in Gregory Anchant, I think.
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Certainly.
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So what are the difference between the organ music and Gregory Anchant?
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Uh so I mean of course, organ music is has such a rich and varied history uh across the centuries.
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It talks through through those multiple centuries with multiple voices and multiple styles, um, all the way from Baroque and actually Renaissance and some earlier than that through through the kind of the Baroque height, which everyone sort of thinks about with organ music and the masters of of Arc and Buxtehuda, um, through the the into the Romantic period where the organ finds a completely different voice, uh, particularly sort of driven by by the French school of of the of the 19th century, which and all of that sort of heritage continues to to live on and build today.
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Where of course Gorgorian chant is in many ways so much more frozen in time.
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You know, we've been passed on this great heritage written centuries ago, um, some of it over quite a long period.
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And of course, so much of the the joy of chant is trying to rediscover that original voice, trying to rediscover that what the great masters were were showing us, teaching us, helping to pray with us uh through that chant.
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But both are the voices the church wants us to use for her liturgy, so they can work together.
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They can, although, of course, over the centuries there have been many views about whether they should.
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Uh, and I suppose that's an interesting point, point in itself.
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And if we if we go back through the writings, certainly of the last sort of two centuries or so, there's there's often quite a heated discussion about whether chant should be accompanied, whether the two things, whether organ and chant should be locked together at the same time, so that the organ is actually accompanying.
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And of course, the use of organ with chant um is extremely ancient.
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And the idea of using the organ antiphonally, so alternating.
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So, you know, the choir sings, the organ plays, the choir sings, the organ plays, goes back centuries, um, and the church codifies all the rules about how all that can be done in in 1600, and that sort of forms the the bedrock of how the organ and Gregorian chant should fit together in liturgy for for centuries to come after that.
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Um, but yes, there is still sort of this debate today about whether chant truly should be accompanied.
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I mean, one of the unique aspects of chant, of course, is it is monophonic, it is a single voice, that it is not by its nature harmonic, though it is by its nature, of course, modal, and I'm sure we'll come to come to modality later.
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Um, so something certainly over the last century, century and a half or so, it has become much more common for chant to be accompanied directly.
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And so organists over all of that period have been working hard to to to discover, to invent in many ways the appropriate method for accompanying chance successfully.
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So there are multiple methods.
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Certainly so.
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Certainly so.
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And what do they have something in common, or maybe they have uh very different approaches?
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I suppose that Gregor entrance has to be uh the first part of the of the work.
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It means like the organ can't just override it.
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No, that's it.
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And I think if we look at sort of some of the earlier attempts, particularly sort of 19th century, in in thinking about some of these things, these ideas, is it's not really clear then that the organ is going to be subservient to the chant.
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I mean, certainly before the Gregorian revival and you know, before and some point during the work of uh of Salem in formalizing their method, there are some tensions about uh the rhythmic nature, the metrical nature of chant, people taking different views on how those things should should work.
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There are there is little advanced writing on the modality of chant in terms of organ accompaniments.
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So some of those early 19th century um scored accompaniments for Gregorian chant do things which I think to to musicologists and organistiers today feel very strange.
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Um, chants in minor modes finishing with major keys, um, you know, the tiasta Piketty becomes sort of becomes quite common.
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So there are a number of schools.
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The first composer to really sort of start to codify a modality into Gregorian chant is probably Niedermeyer in the 19th century, and he writes and writes extensively on uh on accompanying Gregorian chant with a style that probably feels a little dated today.
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Um, but certainly the work progresses through then organists like Flour Peters uh in the late 19th, uh early 20th century.
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He has a huge resource in terms of uh in terms of organ accompaniments, which are generally speaking, true to the modality uh of the chant, but also add uh lots of additional notes to chord, so lots of added sevenths and things in chords, which generally speaking, within the true modernity, we try to avoid now.
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But yeah, the school has been definitely evolving over the decades.
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And so you talked about the solemns method, and this is the method that the church wants us to use for uh performing Gregorian trend.
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And is there a solemn method for accompaniment?
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Well, certainly not really in the early days.
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I mean, some of the the great writings of uh of uh of Decroquet uh and particularly of I think an important man in the in this story is Henri Potinon Um who is with the with the monks at Salem.
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And interestingly, there are, if you sort of have a have a look on the internet, you'll see his two, he has the two editions of a famous treatise of organ accompaniment uh of chant.
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And what's really interesting is in the preface to the second edition, he basically says, ignore everything I said in the first edition.
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I've changed my mind.
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Um, because he, as lots of musicians did, spent quite a lot of time wrestling with the Soleem ictus and the Soleem rhythmic method, and couldn't really understand where this came from.
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And it felt to him that putting forward a rhythmic method which is sort of detached from the from the from the tonic accent, from the from the rhythmic aspect of the language didn't make any sense.
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And a lot of organ accompaniments, sort of the early ones often play to the tonic accent of the Latin rather than the rather than the rhythmic ictus of of Salem.
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Um so yeah, so Botion sort of talks about all of this in uh in his in his first book and in his earlier writings.
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He goes um to Kwa uh Abbey uh when the monks are in exile uh out of Salem and seems to have sort of a spiritual conversion um in sort of saying, I finally understand, I think I finally understood exactly what it is the great the great monks of Salem were were trying to achieve, and rewrites his entire treatise uh on the back of that, that actually the ictus becomes something important, becomes something on which we can hang our our harmonies whilst espousing a truly modal style to accompaniment and the importance of understanding things like hexachords and how how those modes fit together.
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And does Henry Pan Potioron, who was a priest, was he?
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Yes, um left a school behind him?
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I think very much so.
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Um, and again, I think in sort of stylistically you see certainly, I think contemporarily today, a number of different ideas and approaches to to Gregorian chant um accompaniment.
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A lot of the well, some of those certainly look much more like the kind of the Needemai the Floor Pater school.
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So trying to be creative, trying to make the organ part musically interesting in and of itself.
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So it isn't solely a support to singing, but also that there is some musical interest within the uh within the parts.
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Now, so the Potiron school takes that approach.
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Um he is starting to slow down how quickly chords change.
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So in a lot of the earlier versions of chant accompaniment, there um uh harmonic changes are really quite frequent.
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Potiron starts to slow that down, but I think, at least in my own personal view, it still feels um still feels quite busy.
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So if you put you know he's he's scored almost the whole of the graduale um uh throughout the year.
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A lot of that stuff, there's still a lot of movement in the in the organ accompaniment.
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Where certainly, if we sort of look through things like sacred music forums online and where you know organists are sort of discussing these things, there seems to be much more interest in what we might sort of call the Seleme, or particularly the Fongombo school, school of accompaniment.
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Um, one of the monks at uh at uh Fongombo, I can't remember which one, essentially writes in one of his letters, he said, Will someone give me an accompaniment that is sort of clean and simple?
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How do we think how do we take the the modal theory but remove the constant movement from the organ?
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Um and whilst Patyron doesn't quite leave us that with his legacy, that seems to emerge from from Salem and Fon Gombeau kind of inside the inside their monasteries, really.
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Patyron does at least leave us the the modal thinking about things.
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I think if there's anything to take from his treatise on organ accompaniment, um it is very much the the get your you know make sure you understand your modality, make sure you understand transpositions uh and when changes of mode occur.
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That is very much a legacy of his, but I think yeah, increasingly, and certainly you know within the institute, we always uh tend to fall more on the Fong Gombos style of accompaniment than any other.
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For sure.
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Can you explain us what is the aim of the organ in the Fongon Bose method or Solemn Smith?
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Yeah, sure.
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So I think the easiest way to describe it probably is do as little as possible in many ways.
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Uh and I think for many organists that is often a hard challenge.
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Um, as well, you know, as organists we sit we sit quietly at the console, um, capable of making a colossal amount of noise, huge volume of music if we wish, and all of a sudden one is challenged to become subservient to something else.
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This is not even like accompanying um choral motets, where there is genuinely a role for the organ musically.
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It is not solely supporting the singing, it is also carrying melodies and harmonic changes, colour changes through different registrations and different stops.
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Where the Fon Gombeau accompaniment style is really how do we make the organ do the bare minimum necessary to rap, to to envelop, to quietly support what is going on in choir, but without ever drawing attention to itself.
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So we we don't want to be as part of the Gregorian chant as uh are the voices, but we want to make like a uh a background, a landscape in well, for the Gregorian to be to be set into that's it.
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That's I think that's a nice way of putting it.
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You know, a background onto which the scholar can paint the Gregorian giant itself.
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We're here to to support, to provide a foundation, but really no more than that.
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So, yes, when you have just a background and nothing in the foreground, there is nothing interesting here.
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Correct.
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And yes, for the organist, it could be that impression to be just being just a background.
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Absolutely.
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And I think if you sort of look at, you know, if you were to to actually transcribe a Fon Gonbo in um accompaniment into modern school, you are essentially looking at a page of almost nothing.
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You are looking at the most boring organ part that has ever been composed, because there's really sort of nothing there.
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But yes, but if there is Gregory and Trent, well, this is what we should um hear.
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When you have just picture with uh foreground, it's interesting because you have the main part.
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But when you add the for the the background, you have something that is a little richer, but maybe it doesn't um changes what is in the foreground, just enlightened.
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Exactly.
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I think I think enlightening it is a is a is a nice way of putting it, that it it it allows you to bring a different, an additional dimension to what is being sung, but without ever getting in the way, without ever being an obstruction, without ever being anything which attracts attention.
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You know, I mean one of the things I often talk to to my students about, um to pupils sort of learning the the method is you know, you can think about that essentially every time the organ changes chord, every time the organ moves, you risk drawing attention to the organ.
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So if you think every movement you make, you know, it's almost like you know, the the the unruly server in sanctuary.
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You know, every time they move unnecessarily, you risk pulling people's attention.
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So stay out of the way.
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Your job here is is is in many ways humility, right?
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Your job is to to sit behind um uh and not be the centre of attention as so many organists often are.
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That's really interesting because it's it looks like um um a spiritual program for the organist, more than a displaying program.
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Yes, in many ways.
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I think I think it is, and certainly, I mean, I've been doing this for what sort of 12 years also now with Chant and really studying the the accompaniment methods for for sort of six or seven years.
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And it is interesting, you know, you can sometimes find yourself challenging yourself in your accompaniments to think how little can I do, how much can I vanish and still provide the the musical support, the pitch support, all of those practical things which are also uh taking place.
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But you know, what is the accompaniment which is modally correct uh and true?
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Um, and of course, there's no one perfect answer to modal accompaniment.
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There are you always have choices.
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Um, and sometimes you can use the the meaning of the text will can change how you might approach um uh a chord change, how you might subtly do things uh differently.
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But yeah, sometimes that challenge of how much can I just vanish?
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How much can I go away?
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And that's also interesting because uh um a friend of mine used to say that the organ in Gregor Entrant has to be there to support.
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But when he when it's here, we don't hear it.
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When it's not here anymore, we hear it because he was doing a job, but it was completely humble role.
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That's right.
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Yes, it is it is so much about that.
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Yes, you you're there to add a something.
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Um, a great organ teacher of mine many years ago once described the um the role of an organist as sort of liturgical wallpaper, that you're there to help to beautify and sanctify the environment you're in, but you should never hold attention.
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You're not the you're not the thing that people should be focusing on.
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Um, and if people notice your absence, well, make sure that doesn't become pride, but um, that is at least a sense that you have been doing your job.
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You know, you're providing a a warmth, a colour, uh a spirituality, um, but which never takes focus, which never takes attention.
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And there is room still for compositions and well um pieces for organ itself with a Gregor and Shen.
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I mean, during the offertory, for instance, the um the antiphone is not sufficient, um it's not as long as the orfetry part.
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So we can fill in fill uh the orfetry with polyphony or uh organ because organ is the church's preferred instrument for liturgy.
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Absolutely.
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And of course, the you know the the scale of organ works uh that have been written over the centuries um are enormous, so there's no shortage of things for for organists to choose from.
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The the challenge then of course becomes what do you choose?
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Um and what might you what organ works might you select for uh for different things.
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But you're right, I mean the role of Gregorian chant in organ, uh in organ compositions, in solo organ compositions, um has been important throughout throughout the centuries.
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I mean, certainly from you know from the early Baroque, late Renaissance, early Baroque schools, there are there are no shortage of of organ work specifically founded on on Gregorian chant melodies.
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Uh, because of course at that time there was little musical polyphony in the church in the very early days, uh, and so the church's own musical voice, of course, gets uh gets taken over by the organ.
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Um, but even as uh as the centuries uh evolve, um we can see in some of the great Baroque writers, and I think this is interesting for me at least, an area of my research at the moment, um, even in the reformed churches, so sort of even coming from sort of the Lutheran tradition of Bark and Buxtehuda, you see so many references um back to Gregorian chant in in some of those melodies.
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Um, some of that is just from uh the reformists um essentially trying trying to start a new church from scratch is quite difficult.
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You need a from where does your herit your new musical heritage come?
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Um so certainly there are new hymns being born, but so many of those actually sit on old plain chart melodies.
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So particular there's a particular reliance on things like the office hymn uh melodies uh which get taken over, but also extracts from uh from uh mass ordinaries as well are used as the foundation for some of those hymns.
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So sort of even in sort of in the Reformed Church, there is there's a huge amount of work there.
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You know, Bach wrote a Te Deum uh for the organ based on based on the plain chant, and there are dozens more chorale preludes based on those sort of things, and then sort of the real revival, of course, you know, Gregorian chant sadly sort of starts to fall into an abeyance during the 18th century.
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There becomes this resurgence of interest in chant uh in the 19th century, um, you know, promoted particularly by sort of Pius IX, who's trying to try to do a lot of that work with Salem.
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And then we see a sort of a new resurgence of interest in in Gregorian chant as a as a melodic inspiration for for organ music.
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And we I think we see that most strongly really in the in the French school, particularly in the Parisian school uh of the 19th and 20th centuries.
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Um so we do see some relatively famous names to organists, these maybe not be known outside, but people particularly like uh Charles Tournament uh in Paris, Maurice Duriflay, um, taking absolutely this Gregorian chant revival to heart and embedding those Gregorian chant melodies at the heart of, albeit actually very large scale, symphonic scale, very romantic works of organ, but at the heart, they saw the importance of Gregorian chant in being the unique expression of liturgical music.
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Very good.
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Thank you very much for this in-depth imagination.
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Um would you add something more?
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Something a little like extra that you want to add?
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Uh I don't I think there's anything that sort of comes to mind.
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We've done we've we've painted with a broad brush in the last few minutes.
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May I ask a question?
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Of course.
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What is your favorite um organ piece based on Gregory Ancient mode or melody?
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I'm thinking about the very famous Dorian toccata from Bach, but there are maybe other choices.
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There are so many.
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So, yes, I mean so I mean the Dorian mode is used is used a lot by by the Baroque organ composer.
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So I think things like the Bar the Bach uh uh Dorian toccata, in a similar vein, I think things like the Booksterhuda Magnificat Primitani, which is also um Dorian mode, and takes that um takes that liturgical view that the organ and the choir will sing alternately the Magnificat.
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So again, that's a nice example of what we're talking about earlier, that sort of even in um early to mid um 18th century reformed Germany, there are still legacies of the the French early 17th century alternating style taking place, so things like that.
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Um, I suppose one of my, I mean, one of the greatest organ works ever, and one of my great favourites is the great Bach Pasicalia and Fuginsey minor, an outstanding work.
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The the research on this can't definitively prove that it's connected.
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Um, but for anyone listening to this, take a look at that great theme of the Bach Pasicalia and have a look at the communion antiphon for the tenth Sunday after Pentecost.
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Oh, yes, I remember remarkably similar.
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So whether he really took inspiration, there's a connection there.
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Thank you very much.
00:23:43.279 --> 00:23:46.160
Any advice for any organist hearing us?
00:23:46.400 --> 00:23:48.720
Um, I think really study, study, study.
00:23:48.880 --> 00:23:55.599
Um, I think you know, the probably the two easy ways in, I think, are well, firstly, of course, is to listen.
00:23:55.680 --> 00:23:57.200
I mean, more than anything else.
00:23:57.279 --> 00:23:58.720
Um, to listen.
00:23:58.799 --> 00:24:05.759
Um, there is so much content available um online now and from places like Fon Gombeau and Salem itself.
00:24:05.839 --> 00:24:12.799
So if you also want to understand those sorts of styles, then you know, bathe yourself in the music and uh and get used to hearing it.
00:24:12.960 --> 00:24:15.359
Um, and then so many good online resources.
00:24:15.440 --> 00:24:26.079
So certainly, you know, I've talked about it already, but Potiron's treatise, make sure you get the second edition, uh, is is easily available uh in its original French and translate it into English as well.
00:24:26.480 --> 00:24:27.759
Thank you very much, Christian.
00:24:27.920 --> 00:24:28.720
Thank you, Kelly.
00:24:29.119 --> 00:24:32.640
As an organist, I will have some work too.
00:24:33.279 --> 00:24:35.839
There is always something for all of us to learn.
00:00:05.919 --> 00:00:14.880
Welcome to Beyond the Spire, a podcast of the Save Our Sacred Suns project here in Preston at the Catholic Shrine of St.
00:00:15.039 --> 00:00:18.160
Wahburg, supported by the National Lottery.
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In each episode, we go beyond what you see from the street.
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We explore the story and the sound of Gregory and chant the church's own voice so that this treasure of faith and culture is not just preserved, but lived and loved again.
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I am Canon Bennens.
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Whether you are a musician, a member of a parish choir, or simply someone curious about the Catholic faith heritage, you came to the right place.
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Let's begin.
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In today's episode, we will talk about organ and Gregor mentioned, and I am very pleased to have as our guest Christian Spence here.
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Hello, Christian.
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Hello, Kellen.
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How are you?
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I'm well, thank you.
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It's a great pleasure to be here.
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Thank you for coming from New Brighton.
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But you said to me before the episode started that you are from Lancashire.
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So you're not far away from home here.
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I'm not.
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I was born in Wigan too many years ago to remember.
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But yes, it's always always great joy to come back to Lancashire.
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Very good.
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So you're an organist.
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Yes.
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And you are uh also interested in Gregory Anchant, I think.
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Certainly.
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So what are the difference between the organ music and Gregory Anchant?
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Uh so I mean of course, organ music is has such a rich and varied history uh across the centuries.
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It talks through through those multiple centuries with multiple voices and multiple styles, um, all the way from Baroque and actually Renaissance and some earlier than that through through the kind of the Baroque height, which everyone sort of thinks about with organ music and the masters of of Arc and Buxtehuda, um, through the the into the Romantic period where the organ finds a completely different voice, uh, particularly sort of driven by by the French school of of the of the 19th century, which and all of that sort of heritage continues to to live on and build today.
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Where of course Gorgorian chant is in many ways so much more frozen in time.
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You know, we've been passed on this great heritage written centuries ago, um, some of it over quite a long period.
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And of course, so much of the the joy of chant is trying to rediscover that original voice, trying to rediscover that what the great masters were were showing us, teaching us, helping to pray with us uh through that chant.
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But both are the voices the church wants us to use for her liturgy, so they can work together.
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They can, although, of course, over the centuries there have been many views about whether they should.
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Uh, and I suppose that's an interesting point, point in itself.
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And if we if we go back through the writings, certainly of the last sort of two centuries or so, there's there's often quite a heated discussion about whether chant should be accompanied, whether the two things, whether organ and chant should be locked together at the same time, so that the organ is actually accompanying.
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And of course, the use of organ with chant um is extremely ancient.
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And the idea of using the organ antiphonally, so alternating.
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So, you know, the choir sings, the organ plays, the choir sings, the organ plays, goes back centuries, um, and the church codifies all the rules about how all that can be done in in 1600, and that sort of forms the the bedrock of how the organ and Gregorian chant should fit together in liturgy for for centuries to come after that.
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Um, but yes, there is still sort of this debate today about whether chant truly should be accompanied.
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I mean, one of the unique aspects of chant, of course, is it is monophonic, it is a single voice, that it is not by its nature harmonic, though it is by its nature, of course, modal, and I'm sure we'll come to come to modality later.
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Um, so something certainly over the last century, century and a half or so, it has become much more common for chant to be accompanied directly.
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And so organists over all of that period have been working hard to to to discover, to invent in many ways the appropriate method for accompanying chance successfully.
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So there are multiple methods.
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Certainly so.
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Certainly so.
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And what do they have something in common, or maybe they have uh very different approaches?
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I suppose that Gregor entrance has to be uh the first part of the of the work.
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It means like the organ can't just override it.
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No, that's it.
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And I think if we look at sort of some of the earlier attempts, particularly sort of 19th century, in in thinking about some of these things, these ideas, is it's not really clear then that the organ is going to be subservient to the chant.
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I mean, certainly before the Gregorian revival and you know, before and some point during the work of uh of Salem in formalizing their method, there are some tensions about uh the rhythmic nature, the metrical nature of chant, people taking different views on how those things should should work.
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There are there is little advanced writing on the modality of chant in terms of organ accompaniments.
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So some of those early 19th century um scored accompaniments for Gregorian chant do things which I think to to musicologists and organistiers today feel very strange.
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Um, chants in minor modes finishing with major keys, um, you know, the tiasta Piketty becomes sort of becomes quite common.
00:06:02.319 --> 00:06:04.079
So there are a number of schools.
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The first composer to really sort of start to codify a modality into Gregorian chant is probably Niedermeyer in the 19th century, and he writes and writes extensively on uh on accompanying Gregorian chant with a style that probably feels a little dated today.
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Um, but certainly the work progresses through then organists like Flour Peters uh in the late 19th, uh early 20th century.
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He has a huge resource in terms of uh in terms of organ accompaniments, which are generally speaking, true to the modality uh of the chant, but also add uh lots of additional notes to chord, so lots of added sevenths and things in chords, which generally speaking, within the true modernity, we try to avoid now.
00:06:54.000 --> 00:06:57.759
But yeah, the school has been definitely evolving over the decades.
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And so you talked about the solemns method, and this is the method that the church wants us to use for uh performing Gregorian trend.
00:07:09.519 --> 00:07:13.600
And is there a solemn method for accompaniment?
00:07:14.160 --> 00:07:16.399
Well, certainly not really in the early days.
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I mean, some of the the great writings of uh of uh of Decroquet uh and particularly of I think an important man in the in this story is Henri Potinon Um who is with the with the monks at Salem.
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And interestingly, there are, if you sort of have a have a look on the internet, you'll see his two, he has the two editions of a famous treatise of organ accompaniment uh of chant.
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And what's really interesting is in the preface to the second edition, he basically says, ignore everything I said in the first edition.
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I've changed my mind.
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Um, because he, as lots of musicians did, spent quite a lot of time wrestling with the Soleem ictus and the Soleem rhythmic method, and couldn't really understand where this came from.
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And it felt to him that putting forward a rhythmic method which is sort of detached from the from the from the tonic accent, from the from the rhythmic aspect of the language didn't make any sense.
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And a lot of organ accompaniments, sort of the early ones often play to the tonic accent of the Latin rather than the rather than the rhythmic ictus of of Salem.
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Um so yeah, so Botion sort of talks about all of this in uh in his in his first book and in his earlier writings.
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He goes um to Kwa uh Abbey uh when the monks are in exile uh out of Salem and seems to have sort of a spiritual conversion um in sort of saying, I finally understand, I think I finally understood exactly what it is the great the great monks of Salem were were trying to achieve, and rewrites his entire treatise uh on the back of that, that actually the ictus becomes something important, becomes something on which we can hang our our harmonies whilst espousing a truly modal style to accompaniment and the importance of understanding things like hexachords and how how those modes fit together.
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And does Henry Pan Potioron, who was a priest, was he?
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Yes, um left a school behind him?
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I think very much so.
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Um, and again, I think in sort of stylistically you see certainly, I think contemporarily today, a number of different ideas and approaches to to Gregorian chant um accompaniment.
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A lot of the well, some of those certainly look much more like the kind of the Needemai the Floor Pater school.
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So trying to be creative, trying to make the organ part musically interesting in and of itself.
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So it isn't solely a support to singing, but also that there is some musical interest within the uh within the parts.
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Now, so the Potiron school takes that approach.
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Um he is starting to slow down how quickly chords change.
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So in a lot of the earlier versions of chant accompaniment, there um uh harmonic changes are really quite frequent.
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Potiron starts to slow that down, but I think, at least in my own personal view, it still feels um still feels quite busy.
00:10:19.679 --> 00:10:25.600
So if you put you know he's he's scored almost the whole of the graduale um uh throughout the year.
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A lot of that stuff, there's still a lot of movement in the in the organ accompaniment.
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Where certainly, if we sort of look through things like sacred music forums online and where you know organists are sort of discussing these things, there seems to be much more interest in what we might sort of call the Seleme, or particularly the Fongombo school, school of accompaniment.
00:10:46.000 --> 00:10:58.399
Um, one of the monks at uh at uh Fongombo, I can't remember which one, essentially writes in one of his letters, he said, Will someone give me an accompaniment that is sort of clean and simple?
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How do we think how do we take the the modal theory but remove the constant movement from the organ?
00:11:05.919 --> 00:11:15.679
Um and whilst Patyron doesn't quite leave us that with his legacy, that seems to emerge from from Salem and Fon Gombeau kind of inside the inside their monasteries, really.
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Patyron does at least leave us the the modal thinking about things.
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I think if there's anything to take from his treatise on organ accompaniment, um it is very much the the get your you know make sure you understand your modality, make sure you understand transpositions uh and when changes of mode occur.
00:11:36.159 --> 00:11:45.679
That is very much a legacy of his, but I think yeah, increasingly, and certainly you know within the institute, we always uh tend to fall more on the Fong Gombos style of accompaniment than any other.
00:11:46.159 --> 00:11:46.720
For sure.
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Can you explain us what is the aim of the organ in the Fongon Bose method or Solemn Smith?
00:11:55.600 --> 00:11:56.000
Yeah, sure.
00:11:56.080 --> 00:12:03.279
So I think the easiest way to describe it probably is do as little as possible in many ways.
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Uh and I think for many organists that is often a hard challenge.
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Um, as well, you know, as organists we sit we sit quietly at the console, um, capable of making a colossal amount of noise, huge volume of music if we wish, and all of a sudden one is challenged to become subservient to something else.
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This is not even like accompanying um choral motets, where there is genuinely a role for the organ musically.
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It is not solely supporting the singing, it is also carrying melodies and harmonic changes, colour changes through different registrations and different stops.
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Where the Fon Gombeau accompaniment style is really how do we make the organ do the bare minimum necessary to rap, to to envelop, to quietly support what is going on in choir, but without ever drawing attention to itself.
00:13:00.879 --> 00:13:17.440
So we we don't want to be as part of the Gregorian chant as uh are the voices, but we want to make like a uh a background, a landscape in well, for the Gregorian to be to be set into that's it.
00:13:17.600 --> 00:13:18.799
That's I think that's a nice way of putting it.
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You know, a background onto which the scholar can paint the Gregorian giant itself.
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We're here to to support, to provide a foundation, but really no more than that.
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So, yes, when you have just a background and nothing in the foreground, there is nothing interesting here.
00:13:34.240 --> 00:13:34.559
Correct.
00:13:34.720 --> 00:13:40.799
And yes, for the organist, it could be that impression to be just being just a background.
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Absolutely.
00:13:41.759 --> 00:13:52.879
And I think if you sort of look at, you know, if you were to to actually transcribe a Fon Gonbo in um accompaniment into modern school, you are essentially looking at a page of almost nothing.
00:13:52.960 --> 00:13:58.399
You are looking at the most boring organ part that has ever been composed, because there's really sort of nothing there.
00:13:58.559 --> 00:14:06.159
But yes, but if there is Gregory and Trent, well, this is what we should um hear.
00:14:06.879 --> 00:14:12.240
When you have just picture with uh foreground, it's interesting because you have the main part.
00:14:12.879 --> 00:14:27.200
But when you add the for the the background, you have something that is a little richer, but maybe it doesn't um changes what is in the foreground, just enlightened.
00:14:27.519 --> 00:14:27.840
Exactly.
00:14:27.919 --> 00:14:44.960
I think I think enlightening it is a is a is a nice way of putting it, that it it it allows you to bring a different, an additional dimension to what is being sung, but without ever getting in the way, without ever being an obstruction, without ever being anything which attracts attention.
00:14:45.039 --> 00:15:00.159
You know, I mean one of the things I often talk to to my students about, um to pupils sort of learning the the method is you know, you can think about that essentially every time the organ changes chord, every time the organ moves, you risk drawing attention to the organ.
00:15:00.559 --> 00:15:07.120
So if you think every movement you make, you know, it's almost like you know, the the the unruly server in sanctuary.
00:15:07.200 --> 00:15:11.279
You know, every time they move unnecessarily, you risk pulling people's attention.
00:15:11.440 --> 00:15:12.960
So stay out of the way.
00:15:13.120 --> 00:15:17.200
Your job here is is is in many ways humility, right?
00:15:17.360 --> 00:15:24.559
Your job is to to sit behind um uh and not be the centre of attention as so many organists often are.
00:15:24.960 --> 00:15:38.320
That's really interesting because it's it looks like um um a spiritual program for the organist, more than a displaying program.
00:15:38.639 --> 00:15:39.440
Yes, in many ways.
00:15:39.519 --> 00:15:49.039
I think I think it is, and certainly, I mean, I've been doing this for what sort of 12 years also now with Chant and really studying the the accompaniment methods for for sort of six or seven years.
00:15:49.200 --> 00:16:07.600
And it is interesting, you know, you can sometimes find yourself challenging yourself in your accompaniments to think how little can I do, how much can I vanish and still provide the the musical support, the pitch support, all of those practical things which are also uh taking place.
00:16:07.759 --> 00:16:13.279
But you know, what is the accompaniment which is modally correct uh and true?
00:16:13.759 --> 00:16:19.440
Um, and of course, there's no one perfect answer to modal accompaniment.
00:16:19.519 --> 00:16:21.360
There are you always have choices.
00:16:22.000 --> 00:16:34.960
Um, and sometimes you can use the the meaning of the text will can change how you might approach um uh a chord change, how you might subtly do things uh differently.
00:16:35.039 --> 00:16:39.360
But yeah, sometimes that challenge of how much can I just vanish?
00:16:39.759 --> 00:16:40.960
How much can I go away?
00:16:41.279 --> 00:16:52.320
And that's also interesting because uh um a friend of mine used to say that the organ in Gregor Entrant has to be there to support.
00:16:52.639 --> 00:16:56.320
But when he when it's here, we don't hear it.
00:16:56.639 --> 00:17:03.600
When it's not here anymore, we hear it because he was doing a job, but it was completely humble role.
00:17:04.000 --> 00:17:04.400
That's right.
00:17:04.480 --> 00:17:06.400
Yes, it is it is so much about that.
00:17:06.480 --> 00:17:09.039
Yes, you you're there to add a something.
00:17:09.440 --> 00:17:26.160
Um, a great organ teacher of mine many years ago once described the um the role of an organist as sort of liturgical wallpaper, that you're there to help to beautify and sanctify the environment you're in, but you should never hold attention.
00:17:26.400 --> 00:17:30.079
You're not the you're not the thing that people should be focusing on.
00:17:30.240 --> 00:17:38.319
Um, and if people notice your absence, well, make sure that doesn't become pride, but um, that is at least a sense that you have been doing your job.
00:17:38.480 --> 00:17:46.960
You know, you're providing a a warmth, a colour, uh a spirituality, um, but which never takes focus, which never takes attention.
00:17:48.319 --> 00:17:56.319
And there is room still for compositions and well um pieces for organ itself with a Gregor and Shen.
00:17:56.559 --> 00:18:07.440
I mean, during the offertory, for instance, the um the antiphone is not sufficient, um it's not as long as the orfetry part.
00:18:07.599 --> 00:18:20.079
So we can fill in fill uh the orfetry with polyphony or uh organ because organ is the church's preferred instrument for liturgy.
00:18:20.640 --> 00:18:21.119
Absolutely.
00:18:21.200 --> 00:18:31.200
And of course, the you know the the scale of organ works uh that have been written over the centuries um are enormous, so there's no shortage of things for for organists to choose from.
00:18:31.519 --> 00:18:34.640
The the challenge then of course becomes what do you choose?
00:18:34.799 --> 00:18:41.039
Um and what might you what organ works might you select for uh for different things.
00:18:41.279 --> 00:18:51.359
But you're right, I mean the role of Gregorian chant in organ, uh in organ compositions, in solo organ compositions, um has been important throughout throughout the centuries.
00:18:51.519 --> 00:19:03.599
I mean, certainly from you know from the early Baroque, late Renaissance, early Baroque schools, there are there are no shortage of of organ work specifically founded on on Gregorian chant melodies.
00:19:03.759 --> 00:19:15.039
Uh, because of course at that time there was little musical polyphony in the church in the very early days, uh, and so the church's own musical voice, of course, gets uh gets taken over by the organ.
00:19:15.279 --> 00:19:40.000
Um, but even as uh as the centuries uh evolve, um we can see in some of the great Baroque writers, and I think this is interesting for me at least, an area of my research at the moment, um, even in the reformed churches, so sort of even coming from sort of the Lutheran tradition of Bark and Buxtehuda, you see so many references um back to Gregorian chant in in some of those melodies.
00:19:40.160 --> 00:19:49.599
Um, some of that is just from uh the reformists um essentially trying trying to start a new church from scratch is quite difficult.
00:19:49.839 --> 00:19:54.559
You need a from where does your herit your new musical heritage come?
00:19:54.720 --> 00:20:00.799
Um so certainly there are new hymns being born, but so many of those actually sit on old plain chart melodies.
00:20:00.880 --> 00:20:15.519
So particular there's a particular reliance on things like the office hymn uh melodies uh which get taken over, but also extracts from uh from uh mass ordinaries as well are used as the foundation for some of those hymns.
00:20:15.680 --> 00:20:19.519
So sort of even in sort of in the Reformed Church, there is there's a huge amount of work there.
00:20:19.599 --> 00:20:36.400
You know, Bach wrote a Te Deum uh for the organ based on based on the plain chant, and there are dozens more chorale preludes based on those sort of things, and then sort of the real revival, of course, you know, Gregorian chant sadly sort of starts to fall into an abeyance during the 18th century.
00:20:36.559 --> 00:20:48.079
There becomes this resurgence of interest in chant uh in the 19th century, um, you know, promoted particularly by sort of Pius IX, who's trying to try to do a lot of that work with Salem.
00:20:48.400 --> 00:20:58.640
And then we see a sort of a new resurgence of interest in in Gregorian chant as a as a melodic inspiration for for organ music.
00:20:58.720 --> 00:21:07.759
And we I think we see that most strongly really in the in the French school, particularly in the Parisian school uh of the 19th and 20th centuries.
00:21:07.839 --> 00:21:43.440
Um so we do see some relatively famous names to organists, these maybe not be known outside, but people particularly like uh Charles Tournament uh in Paris, Maurice Duriflay, um, taking absolutely this Gregorian chant revival to heart and embedding those Gregorian chant melodies at the heart of, albeit actually very large scale, symphonic scale, very romantic works of organ, but at the heart, they saw the importance of Gregorian chant in being the unique expression of liturgical music.
00:21:44.559 --> 00:21:45.039
Very good.
00:21:45.119 --> 00:21:50.559
Thank you very much for this in-depth imagination.
00:21:51.680 --> 00:21:54.640
Um would you add something more?
00:21:55.119 --> 00:21:59.519
Something a little like extra that you want to add?
00:21:59.920 --> 00:22:03.519
Uh I don't I think there's anything that sort of comes to mind.
00:22:03.680 --> 00:22:07.119
We've done we've we've painted with a broad brush in the last few minutes.
00:22:07.440 --> 00:22:08.240
May I ask a question?
00:22:08.559 --> 00:22:09.200
Of course.
00:22:10.160 --> 00:22:18.000
What is your favorite um organ piece based on Gregory Ancient mode or melody?
00:22:18.240 --> 00:22:26.400
I'm thinking about the very famous Dorian toccata from Bach, but there are maybe other choices.
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There are so many.
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So, yes, I mean so I mean the Dorian mode is used is used a lot by by the Baroque organ composer.
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So I think things like the Bar the Bach uh uh Dorian toccata, in a similar vein, I think things like the Booksterhuda Magnificat Primitani, which is also um Dorian mode, and takes that um takes that liturgical view that the organ and the choir will sing alternately the Magnificat.
00:22:52.960 --> 00:23:11.039
So again, that's a nice example of what we're talking about earlier, that sort of even in um early to mid um 18th century reformed Germany, there are still legacies of the the French early 17th century alternating style taking place, so things like that.
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Um, I suppose one of my, I mean, one of the greatest organ works ever, and one of my great favourites is the great Bach Pasicalia and Fuginsey minor, an outstanding work.
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The the research on this can't definitively prove that it's connected.
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Um, but for anyone listening to this, take a look at that great theme of the Bach Pasicalia and have a look at the communion antiphon for the tenth Sunday after Pentecost.
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Oh, yes, I remember remarkably similar.
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So whether he really took inspiration, there's a connection there.
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Thank you very much.
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Any advice for any organist hearing us?
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Um, I think really study, study, study.
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Um, I think you know, the probably the two easy ways in, I think, are well, firstly, of course, is to listen.
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I mean, more than anything else.
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Um, to listen.
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Um, there is so much content available um online now and from places like Fon Gombeau and Salem itself.
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So if you also want to understand those sorts of styles, then you know, bathe yourself in the music and uh and get used to hearing it.
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Um, and then so many good online resources.
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So certainly, you know, I've talked about it already, but Potiron's treatise, make sure you get the second edition, uh, is is easily available uh in its original French and translate it into English as well.
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Thank you very much, Christian.
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Thank you, Kelly.
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As an organist, I will have some work too.
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There is always something for all of us to learn.
