You're Measuring the Wrong Things

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This is Beyond Confidence with your host d W Park.
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Do you want to live a more fulfilling life? Do
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you want to live your legacy and achieve your personal, professional,
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and financial goals? Well? Coming up on Dvparks Beyond Confidence,
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you will hear real stories of leaders, entrepreneurs, and achievers
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who have stepped into discomfort, shattered their satus quo, and
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are living the life they want. You will learn how
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relationships are the key to achieving your aspirations and financial goals.
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Moving your career business forward does not have to happen
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at the expense of your personal or family life, or
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vice versa. Learn more at www dot gwpark dot com
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and you can connect with vants contact at gvpark dot com.
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This is beyond confidence and now here's your host. W Park.
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Good morning everyone, It's Tuesday, and of course I'm thrilled
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to be with you. It is one of the favorite
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times of my week because we get to have a
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wonderful conversations. And sometimes these conversations are hard. Sometimes these
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conversations are fun, but these are conversations that are important
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to have that nobody may be having. So I want
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to thank each in every one of you who have
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got a boox, especially in this day and age with
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AI becoming a thread and scaring so many people. So
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if you're looking to future proof your career and learn
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how to think about AI, because it's not what you think,
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it's how you think, be sure to get our book,
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The AIA and see and as you'll know, part of
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the proceeds going to Kiva dot org because it's important
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that we share the cheer with others as well. So
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let's welcome our guest. Welcome Brad, Welcome, David.
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Hey, great to be with you.
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Thanks Stevie, absolutely so. Do you recall either of you
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a moment or a person that left a positive mark
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on you.
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Boy, Where to start? There are so many if you
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you know, I'm gonna I'm just going to refer very
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quickly when it comes to this thing, this project that
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Dave Smith and I have been engaged in for all
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of these years, promoting a gender fair workplace, promoting gender
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fair relationships. I think I need to start with my
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only sibling, my sister. We had parallel has in the military.
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My sister stayed for thirty years, and I got a
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front row seat over the arc of her career, hearing
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about and observing the gendered headwinds that my sister experienced
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daily that I never did as a male who happens
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to have a similar career and similar personality style. And
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that was kind of my eye opener to gender inequity
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both in relationships at work, to opportunities both in society
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and the workplace. So I think it was that influence,
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you know, engaging with my sister, listening to her, observing her,
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that was kind of what got me started on this path.
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Yeah, very similar for me, not my sibling, but in
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this case my spouse and my partner, my wife, We
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had parallel careers and it was really a lot of
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those conversations over the dining table about the experiences we
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were having in the workplace and seeing how we had
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very different experiences, both in some of the interpersonal aspects
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of how we were perceived in the workplace, but also
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in opportunities, mentoring, just being seen as being ready for
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what's next, And a lot of that came very naturally
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to me. I didn't have to look very hard for her.
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It was often very challenging to find people who were
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willing to talk to her about her career and her
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career development. And it really opened my eyes to the
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fact that these were not necessarily just one person's experiences,
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because I went back and I talked to my own colleagues,
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my female colleagues at work, and to look at their
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experiences and also made the connection that Wow, this is
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a really systemic issue that lots of women are having,
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and it does tend to be more rampant in more
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majority male professions and occupations out there, but it's not
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peculiar to them, right, see that and lots of them
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out there. And that was the one that got me
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curious and thinking more about this and about how we
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could all be engaged in doing the work to really
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help to solve for some of the gender inequities we
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see today in the workplace.
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Absolutely, Brett, thank you for your services. And it's it's
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important that we recognized what's going on and a lot
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of things have changed as we look at the numbers.
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What was not true a few decades back, it is
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true now we are seeing a lot more women CEOs,
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more women in the workforce, and yet there is that
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gap and it's important to bridge that gap. So, David,
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what was your career like and how did you decide
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to shift from your career into this project.
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And again, I have my start in the military, and
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that was where I began to see some of the
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differences as women were being integrated more fully into the military,
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recognizing that again it wasn't necessarily equal or equitable in
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many different ways in terms of their opportunities they were
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receiving when we had that, and so one of the
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places that we thought was I think really interesting in
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terms of the research. And this is where Brad and
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I started our work together when we were collaborating and
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teaching at the US Naval Academy in Annapolis, Maryland, and
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Brad's an expert and mentoring and career developmental relationships. And
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one of the connections we saw to my work in
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sociology around gender work and family issues was really this
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kind of the disconnect in terms of the quality and
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the access and the type of mentoring and just broader
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advocacy and sponsorship well as well for women compared to men.
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And also the fact that many cases, you know, there
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was this difference in that men don't make or sponsor
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women in the same way that they do for women,
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and when they do, they often don't do it in
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the same quality and doing it in a very loud,
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full throated way that have really speaking up for her,
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especially when she's not in the room, in the same
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way that they do for other men. And it really
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piqued their curiosity to understand more about how maybe it's
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some of these career developmental opportunities that were the roots
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and the source of some of this. So we began
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that's where we started and doing our research and moving
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towards this idea around how do we engage men and
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becoming part of the solution around creating gender equity in
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the workplace, because you know, often when we you know,
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we looked at organizations and leaders, and we see these inequities,
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like you know again, women not getting the same kind
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or the same access to mentoring as men. They often
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looked at that and said, well, we'll create a women's
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mentoring program, which is great, right because it gives a
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focus on women, but it often still sent a message
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to men that they didn't need to engage in doing
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the work. And so we needed to think about how
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do we reframe this, right, how do we begin to
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shift this this is a more systemic issue and structure
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this in a way so that men see that they
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have something in this too to be gained. And they
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have and they're part of the solution as well when
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it comes to doing this for everybody.
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David, thank you for sharing that, and thank you for
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your services. So as you and Brad that the research.
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I really like what you're sharing that making men also
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part of the solution. What are some of the findings
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that you came across.
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Well, I hope you have three hours, because we have
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a lot to share. We're going to keep it. We're
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going to keep it very brief for you, Diva. But
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some of the big things that really stood out, I
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think the way we as maybe organizational leaders for the
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last several decades have tried to approach gender fairness is
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simply not working. And here a couple ingredients. Here, we
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have made gender fairness of women's problem, meaning all of
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the obligation to change the workplace, to change inequities has
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been on the backs of women. So women's rgs, which
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are rarely funded or maybe human resources, get these siloed
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obligations to fix what's wrong in the workplace, and that's
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simply not working. Women didn't create this series of inequities
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around gender, and it's truly unfair to now expect them
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to fix it. So that messaging has suggested to men
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over and over again that this is a women's problem.
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So maybe you haven't advent or initiative in your company
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around gender, and you men see it and immediately say, well,
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that has gender or women in the title, So that
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doesn't involve me, So I don't show up, I don't engage,
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I don't think I'm invited. And then one other issue
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that came out loud and clear in our first book Athenaising,
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A lot of men are afraid. They're afraid of stepping
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in it. They're afraid of saying the wrong thing. They're
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afraid of gossip or rumors. They don't want to get
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it wrong, and they think that it's safer just to
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sit on the sideline and you know, maybe not engage
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with these talented women who are coming into their departments
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or their organizations. They say to themselves, well, women can
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mentor and sponsor those talented junior women. I don't need
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to do that. And by the way, I'm anxious about
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doing that. So I think we have not given men
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the opportunity to see what's in it for them when
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they really lean in to collaborative relationships with women, when
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they contribute to gender fairness, when they loudly sponsor women
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at work. There's a lot in this for us, and
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we can tell you more about that. But men benefit
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when they really engage in gender fair workplace.
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And those are some of the keywards. What's in it
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for them? What's in it for me? Especially in this
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day and age. Yeah, so we'd love to hear your
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thoughts as to how can men benefit, because when they
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are also benefiting, then it becomes a women situation rather
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than creating that gap that oh, this is not my problem.
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Yeah, yeah, maybe we could start with the area around caregiving,
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because this is one of those around traditional gender roles.
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That is one of the challenges that that men and
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women both face in the workplace. And so as we
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think about benefiting and the opportunity to make the workplace
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more fair and to facilitate, you know, getting what I
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want and what and what she wants at the same time,
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I think this is a place where we can all
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win when it comes to that, including the organization, including
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the workplace, the employer. And so again, these these notions
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that that women are somehow the innate caregivers and the
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and the default caregivers and any relationship really hinders women's
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ability to move forward in their careers, move forward as
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leaders seek opportunities when there's perceptions by men and other
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people in the in their organization that somehow they're a risk,
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or they're they're not as committed to the work, or
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they're going to leave at some point, or they're they're
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just not able to commit to the same quality and
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level of the work as men are, and so they
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don't right, so they don't get the opportunities. They are
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not put in the positions where they can do these things,
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and so this, this hinders women's ability to do that.
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The flip side of that coin is that there's an assumption,
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right from a gender roles perspective, around traditional gender roles,
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that men are somehow not innate caregivers, are not good
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at caregiving or the again, the stereotypes that go with
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that around these bumbling men who who can't seem to
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find their way around to how to take take care
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of others, whether they're small children or somebody older in
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their family. Maybe, but men can and men do want
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to do that. And that's the challenge is that when
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men try to step into caregiving roles or to do
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more of that, to take maybe take some time off
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or paid leave or use flexible work arrangements to be
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able to facilitate doing some of that caregiving, they're penalized.
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And sometimes it's very explicitly and other times it's implied
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in terms of maybe their manager asking him it's like, oh, well,
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you know, why do you need paid leave? Don't you
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have a wife? And it's like, WHOA really is that
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where we're going to go with this, But this, you know,
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these expectations that men are going to be penalized and
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they are in many ways. They're stigmatized and penalized for
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trying to use programs or policies practices that enable them
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to be the caregivers that they need to be. That
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also help us to facilitate women stepping in and leaning
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into those roles where they're not doing the lion's share
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of the caregiving. And we haven't even gotten to the
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domestic labor and the mental load that goes with all
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of that as well.
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Yeah, and two other benefits, Diva that you know you
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mentioned the with them, what's in it for men? Two
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other things. Lots of research now showing that when men
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lean into caregiving at home and share it equitably, they
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have healthier brains. You know, they have younger looking brains.
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Caregiving tends to stimulate areas in the brain that are
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linked to better empathy and you know, emotional intelligence and awareness.
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They feel better, they enjoy deeper relationships with their children.
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And then second, we're looking at research on men who
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are getting promoted to C suite jobs across corporate America
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in the last decade or so. It turns out men
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who show up with this spirit of collaboration and inclusion
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and humility and curiosity all the things that lead to
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really gender fair leadership, those are the men who are
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getting promoted today. I think companies and organizations are finally
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recognizing that's who we want in LEE readership. And so
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if you want to know what's in it for men,
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there's a lot of career opportunity in addition to all
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the interpersonal benefits.
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Absolutely, and companies are stepping up because as I coach
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so many different gentlemen from across different span of cross
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section of different industries, a lot of companies are providing
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equal portunity leads for men as well as for women.
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So that's another way that they can kind of step
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in to bridge the gap. You talk about five essential
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tactics for world class gender inclusive leadership, So what might
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those be?
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Well, I can lead off Dave, and maybe you have
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some others in mind. But number one, stop outsourcing gender
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fairness initiatives. Too many leaders, you know, are happy to
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silo all of their gender inclusion initiatives in for example,
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the Women's Energy Right or maybe HR tend to be
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underfunded or not funded at all, and it puts all
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the obligation on the disadvantaged group in this case women,
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to affect change. In the company that's not working. I
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need to make this a core business initiative and make
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it really clear that this is not a nice to have,
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it's a value that we want to live in everything
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we do and the way we do business. So stop outsourcing.
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You need to own gender fairness. It needs to be
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centered in the work that you do as an executive
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in your organization. People need to be clear about that.
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And I'll give you a tangible example when, for example,
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International Women's Day comes around and your company has a
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very performative tea and cookies and a panel to celebrate women,
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but there's nothing else meaningful going on. You know, the
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rest of the year, everyone in your organization knows that
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that's performative. And a lot of people we talked to said,
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you know, I can walk into a company and tell
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right away, maybe I'm a speaker on a gender event.
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I can tell right away how seriously the company takes it,
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because when it's serious, usually the CEO it not only
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introduces me, but stays for the entire session, takes notes,
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ask questions. That makes it clear to everybody that this
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is a top priority, right versus the CEO who doesn't
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even show up which is more common or quickly introduces
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the speaker and then takes off to, you know, a
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more important meeting, so you see that quite often. Second,
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or I guess third, talk about your why. You need
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to get comfortable with your why. Why does gender fairness
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matter to you? Why is this a key business priority
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for your organization? And talk about your personal why who?
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Who are the women in your lives that matter to
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you and that you care about and that you don't
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want to face inequities. Tell your story it needs to
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be compelling on a personal level, and then pivot and
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go from your personal why to why does this matter
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for our organization? Dave any others I missed?
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Yeah, you know one I like the highlight is really
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around how we how we from a cultural perspective, and
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there's certainly a shift here in how we value for example,
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care work. But transparency is a key piece of this,
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and being transparent across the organization. One in the policies
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and practices that we're using and then who's using them
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and how they're being used. Right, so people want to know, right,
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this is how we get past stigma and it's like, oh,
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you know we have this policy, but you can't really
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use it, or my manager said that, you know, hey,
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that's not really for you. And that's often something that
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men here when it comes to for example, paid leave
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out there. So having transparency is really good. One of
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the ways that we see leaders really embody that and lead,
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you know, in a very forward leaning way with it,
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is how they role model and use some of these programs.
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Right.
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So, yeah, maybe you're at that point in your career
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where I don't necessarily need remote work or flex work arrangements,
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but it really means a lot when I'm not one
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hundred percent in the office and I'm using those on
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an occasional basis, when it makes sense right to demonstrate that, hey,
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this isn't just for certain people, this is for all
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of us, right, and here's what it looks like when
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I use it, so I can role model what it
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looks like to use flex work arrangements or remote work
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or hybrid work in some case. The other part of that,
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I think, in the valuing caregiving is also the implementation
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of how we use it. And so the same thing, right,
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role model, how do you use paid leave? What does
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it look like? How do we value that in terms
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of training managers who are implementing these policies, you know,
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down there on the front lines. How do we train
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them and educate them on the implementation of these policies.
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What's it look like when I have a I find
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out that I have an employee who's going to go
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on paid leave? What does that process look like? How
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do I prepare them to go on paid leave? How
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do I prepare my team to again, how do we
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re distribute that work or how do do I have
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the opportunity to bring somebody else in temporary work? You know,
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what are my options when it comes to the tools
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of my toolkit? And then how do I support that
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worker when they're on paid leave and again without end
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up being an intrusive on their time off, but at
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the same time recognizing that, hey, we want to stay
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connected while you're gone, and that means because I'm looking
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forward to you coming back. And talk about the transition back,
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which can often be the hardest part for women and men.
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When you've been away from work for whether it's six weeks,
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twelve weeks, six months at a time, it's hard to
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come back when especially and you've been in some sort
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of a full caregiving mode. In that way, and so
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talk about the transition, what does it look like, what
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are we going to do, what would work best for you?
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And then what would work best for the team, and
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how do we make those meat in the middle. And
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then I guess I think the other part is understanding
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that we all need different aspects around, for example, childcare
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or elder care benefits, and then beginning to understand and
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talk about that in a way that we can we
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can understand and make sure that those benefits are available
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and accessible to the people that need them in a
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way that again they can afford, because often caregiving is
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very expensive and we have a lot of you know,
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childcare today in many places. As most parents out there
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can tell you, it was just one of those where
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it's like they're making very hard decisions about the economics
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and their family around who's doing what kind of work
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and how much of that work because of just the
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cost around caregiving, and childcare is just one piece of it.
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Elder care is another component of that, and in many
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cases we have that sandwich generation of us who are
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you know, we still have kids at home that are
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less than eighteen, and we have parents who are over
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sixty five. And we're doing caregiving for both on both ends,
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and so how do we work with them to keep
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that talent in the workforce and help them to stay
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at that high level at the same time meet those
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caregiving needs that they need to do.
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Absolutely, these are some great points. What really resonated with me, David,
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was that transition helping, whether it's men or a woman
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transition during that time that listen, as you're heading out
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for caregiving, whether it is for parentally or whether it
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is for elderly care, that you're secure you're not going
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to get penalized that you are out for six months.
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We will evaluate you based on your performance in six months.
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Because a lot of my clients have come back and
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said that because out my ranking from a performance yearly
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performance review went down, So come and you'll pr which
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is performance review. I don't know if I want to
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take full leave, and so many times they end up
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taking only half a leave, or sometimes what they'll do
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is they'll take two months here, then two months there,
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and when they're doing that, it disrupts the team a lot,
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and then you also start seeing resentment on the team's part.
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So that part is very crucial because now men in
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the leadership roles are role modeling, training people their reports
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how to implement it when they get in that position. Yeah,
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so what are the techniques you have seen that have
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worked for organizations to normalize and remove the stigmatization around caregiving.
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Yeah, there's several ways that we've seen that have been
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very effective. And some companies choose to do this, you know,
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kind of in house, meaning they've they've they've spent the
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time to train their managers in a way and give
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them the tools, like they have checklists. For example, when
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they find out that they have a employee who's going
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to be going out on leave, right, the things that
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they need to do with the employee to prepare them
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for moving going on leave. At the same time, the
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thing the checklist for the manager to work with the
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team in terms of all right, so how are we
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redistributing that work? And that varies a lot depending on
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the type of work it is and if it's client
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facing work or you know, certain project based work. You know, uh,
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do they have a unique role or set of talents
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that they're bringing to that project, And so there's different
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ways to do that. And again, companies will will have
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different tools that they uh will will give the manager
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and how to what are their options in terms of
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how do I replace that? Do I Are there opportunities
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to bring other people in? In some cases there are
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on a temporary basis. In some cases we're redistributing within
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the team, and that's just kind of a you know,
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you think about first responders for example, this is a
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very common one where they recognize that for somebody to
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be out on leave, that means that they're picking up
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the load, right, and they do that for each other.
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That's part of the expectation and the understanding of how
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they do that from a first responder perspective, because it's
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really hard to bring in kind of temporary so to speak,
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to fill those gaps for them. But in other cases
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that's not the case that because of the type of
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work that they do, the highly specialized expertise, there's often
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a lot of people out there on the market that
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do this fractional work and they're doing it on a
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piecemeal type basis or in the gig economy that's become
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so popular right that they can hire those people in
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and they have a list of people who they work
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with where they can do some of this and that's
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just the beginning of it. The second part really is
447
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the next phase of while the employees out and keeping
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that engagement going and thinking about the what is the
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type of communication we're going to be having, what are
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we going to be emphasizing, recognizing that the employee is
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actually learning and a chance to practice new skills while
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they're on leave that they can transition back into the
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workplace with as well. And so that's one that I
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think a lot of people don't even recognize that, Hey,
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people are still gaining experience in a variety of different
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ways and maybe whether that's again working on managing a
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myriad of caregiving needs, especially as you think about if
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you're caregiving for a maybe from an elder care perspective,
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somebody with a dementia related disease, there's a lot of
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there's a lot of coordination that has to happen there,
461
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and a lot of management of time and resources. And
462
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so again those are things that can be used to
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develop those and bring those back into the workplace and
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understanding that, I think there's also an opportunity to leverage
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caregivers when they come back in two. Again, there is
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a support network within the workplace within your team to
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be able to, hey, how did you do this when
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you were on leave? I have I have a very
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similar circumstance. Many of us are kind of going through this,
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sometimes for the first time, but others have had the
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experience of doing it. How do we how do we
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create a network of support network within our team or
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within the organization broadly, and that's often where employee resource
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groups come in. And then finally, I think one of
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the most important pieces is that transition back. Got to
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the got to have the training for the manager and
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how they can how they're going to bring that employee
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back again. What are the options. Maybe in some cases
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we need to bring somebody back in a part time
480
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and then kind of gradually work their hours up to
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full time again. Other cases they can bring them back
482
00:27:43.960 --> 00:27:46.799
into full time status, but because it's client facing, they've
483
00:27:46.799 --> 00:27:49.000
got to work them back into teams or working with
484
00:27:49.160 --> 00:27:54.279
clients in these different programs. Sometimes employers will work with
485
00:27:54.799 --> 00:27:58.440
consultants and third party right so outside the organization to
486
00:27:58.559 --> 00:28:01.079
do some of this to facility some of that for them,
487
00:28:01.119 --> 00:28:03.839
and they're doing the coaching at the same time, they're
488
00:28:03.880 --> 00:28:07.519
helping to manage this within their teams across the organization,
489
00:28:07.640 --> 00:28:09.880
so they can build some of that those skill sets
490
00:28:09.920 --> 00:28:11.640
internally in the organization as well.
491
00:28:12.440 --> 00:28:16.000
Mm hmmm. So these are some very crucial points to
492
00:28:16.079 --> 00:28:18.440
keep in mind. So as we are talking about let's
493
00:28:18.480 --> 00:28:22.640
say some of the organizations have implemented some of that,
494
00:28:23.480 --> 00:28:27.119
but what are some questions they can ask before they
495
00:28:27.119 --> 00:28:30.119
start measuring progress towards the gender fair workplace?
496
00:28:31.920 --> 00:28:38.200
Mmm? Boy, so many questions and you know, part of it,
497
00:28:38.519 --> 00:28:42.359
part of it, you know, could be around caregiving, you know.
498
00:28:42.519 --> 00:28:45.559
So if we're talking about that, how about starting with
499
00:28:45.599 --> 00:28:50.559
a caregiving census. A lot of organizations have no idea
500
00:28:51.119 --> 00:28:56.039
who among their employees have caregiving obligations, and it can
501
00:28:56.119 --> 00:28:59.759
be it can be a sticky situation because the employers
502
00:28:59.799 --> 00:29:03.440
of afraid to ask who has caregiving They don't want
503
00:29:03.440 --> 00:29:08.319
to violate privacy and their concern maybe about legal ramifications.
504
00:29:08.960 --> 00:29:13.440
Employees also are reluctant to respond, right because they don't
505
00:29:13.480 --> 00:29:16.000
trust the organization. Yet, what are you going to do
506
00:29:16.039 --> 00:29:19.880
with this information? Will I be stigmatized if I self
507
00:29:19.920 --> 00:29:23.039
identify as a caregiver? So I've got to start with
508
00:29:23.079 --> 00:29:28.240
some cultural change and building trust make this normative. So
509
00:29:28.759 --> 00:29:33.160
how about just starting with a census to find out
510
00:29:33.640 --> 00:29:36.720
related to that. If we're talking about gender fairness more broadly,
511
00:29:37.000 --> 00:29:41.799
div yet, how about conducting listening sessions with women. We
512
00:29:41.920 --> 00:29:46.079
got to interview one person who said a herculean major
513
00:29:46.839 --> 00:29:50.359
leadership mistake here is to assume that women are doing
514
00:29:50.440 --> 00:29:54.440
fine in your organization just because you're not hearing complaints
515
00:29:54.640 --> 00:29:58.680
or you're not receiving data, probably because you're not asking
516
00:29:58.720 --> 00:30:02.680
for it about how women are experiencing the workplace. Don't
517
00:30:02.720 --> 00:30:08.680
assume they're doing okay. You know, conduct anonymous surveys, have
518
00:30:08.839 --> 00:30:13.000
listening sessions, have listening sessions with women across the organization
519
00:30:13.079 --> 00:30:16.640
at different levels, and ask them how they're doing. You
520
00:30:16.680 --> 00:30:19.240
can have a third party person do this, you can
521
00:30:19.279 --> 00:30:22.720
have somebody else do it. Start going to the women's
522
00:30:23.519 --> 00:30:27.599
ERG meetings and listen to women about how they're experiencing
523
00:30:28.200 --> 00:30:31.039
your workplace. It's going to be an epiphany for you
524
00:30:31.119 --> 00:30:34.079
when you start. You know, once they trust you, they're
525
00:30:34.079 --> 00:30:36.720
going to share with you where you have work to do,
526
00:30:37.279 --> 00:30:41.160
what's not going well. And then how about just looking
527
00:30:41.200 --> 00:30:45.799
at bottom line factors. If you want to start some
528
00:30:46.000 --> 00:30:49.720
gender fairness process, how about just starting at the beginning
529
00:30:49.759 --> 00:30:54.880
with taking a hard look at your current onboarding of women.
530
00:30:55.559 --> 00:30:58.079
How are you doing with targets to getting to gender
531
00:30:58.119 --> 00:31:01.440
balance at each level? How are you doing with retention?
532
00:31:02.079 --> 00:31:04.799
How are you doing with advancement? If you don't have
533
00:31:04.880 --> 00:31:07.640
a baseline for those numbers, it's going to be very
534
00:31:07.640 --> 00:31:10.440
hard to assess how you're making progress.
535
00:31:12.079 --> 00:31:16.279
It thanks for a deeper reflection. Yeah, I'm seeing where
536
00:31:16.319 --> 00:31:18.559
you're at, David. You're sharing something.
537
00:31:18.799 --> 00:31:21.200
Yeah, I think there's and there's some intersections within that
538
00:31:21.200 --> 00:31:23.920
that are really important and making sure that we're kind of,
539
00:31:24.519 --> 00:31:27.000
you know, as Brad's giving these questions that we don't
540
00:31:27.039 --> 00:31:29.960
stop there right there, there's another level of question of
541
00:31:30.000 --> 00:31:33.759
disaggregating the data a little bit and so understanding where
542
00:31:33.839 --> 00:31:37.279
as we think about retention, So retention figures can get
543
00:31:37.319 --> 00:31:39.240
masked in a lot of different ways, right as we
544
00:31:39.319 --> 00:31:41.920
as we aggregate the data, and so can we look
545
00:31:41.960 --> 00:31:44.359
at that for different groups of people? So for example,
546
00:31:44.359 --> 00:31:46.680
if we're looking at from a gender perspective, that's great,
547
00:31:47.119 --> 00:31:49.839
but within women, for example, can we look at how
548
00:31:49.920 --> 00:31:52.240
maybe the differences are there for women of color?
549
00:31:52.640 --> 00:31:52.799
Right?
550
00:31:52.839 --> 00:31:55.200
Can we look at regions? So if you have a again,
551
00:31:55.440 --> 00:31:58.799
lots of global companies today, can we look at different
552
00:31:58.839 --> 00:32:01.799
regions and is it is it working differently in one
553
00:32:01.839 --> 00:32:04.559
region versus another? And if one's if there's one reason
554
00:32:04.559 --> 00:32:07.400
that stands out as being really great, why is that
555
00:32:07.519 --> 00:32:09.400
can we what can we learn from that region?
556
00:32:09.920 --> 00:32:10.039
Uh?
557
00:32:10.160 --> 00:32:13.720
Same thing from a functionality perspective looking at different elements
558
00:32:13.720 --> 00:32:17.000
of the business that you run. Are women doing great
559
00:32:17.039 --> 00:32:19.000
in one place and men are doing great in another?
560
00:32:19.160 --> 00:32:21.680
And you know why are there differences? As we look
561
00:32:21.720 --> 00:32:25.079
at kind of the functionality uh component of that, and
562
00:32:25.559 --> 00:32:28.759
we see we have great uh, you know, equity when
563
00:32:28.759 --> 00:32:32.680
it comes to maybe around marketing and communications or HR
564
00:32:32.920 --> 00:32:38.200
or legal. But when I go over to sales or operations, engineering,
565
00:32:38.559 --> 00:32:42.240
R and D, suddenly I'm seeing these these huge deficits
566
00:32:42.279 --> 00:32:43.920
where it's like, where are all the women? Why aren't
567
00:32:43.960 --> 00:32:46.200
there as many women over here as there are there?
568
00:32:46.240 --> 00:32:48.960
And so then beginning to ask those more those deeper
569
00:32:49.039 --> 00:32:52.720
questions about that and and understanding what you're trying to achieve.
570
00:32:52.799 --> 00:32:54.319
And I think that at the end of the day,
571
00:32:55.000 --> 00:32:57.880
when leaders really ask the hard questions and dig deep
572
00:32:57.920 --> 00:33:01.039
in there, then they'll begin to start to parse out
573
00:33:01.079 --> 00:33:04.039
some of the either places where they need more information
574
00:33:04.160 --> 00:33:07.400
or too they'll start to learn some of the practices
575
00:33:07.440 --> 00:33:10.160
that maybe are causing that or that are holding them
576
00:33:10.200 --> 00:33:12.640
back from achieving what they're really trying to do.
577
00:33:13.559 --> 00:33:15.920
And that's such an elevant point because so many times
578
00:33:15.960 --> 00:33:18.480
what happens is that you do surveys and you get
579
00:33:18.480 --> 00:33:22.039
that data. It can mask a lot of underlying problems.
580
00:33:22.480 --> 00:33:25.599
But as you are recommending where you segment the data,
581
00:33:25.680 --> 00:33:30.039
where you parse it out, you can pinpoint where things
582
00:33:30.039 --> 00:33:33.279
are working and where they're not working. And as you
583
00:33:33.359 --> 00:33:38.799
do it, even a deeper reflection, you can definitely put
584
00:33:38.799 --> 00:33:42.839
your finger on the pulse that oh, it's working in
585
00:33:42.960 --> 00:33:46.640
this region or in this department, but it's not over here.
586
00:33:47.519 --> 00:33:49.599
So as we talk about you know, we have talked
587
00:33:49.599 --> 00:33:54.400
about culture, we have talked about how can we implement techniques,
588
00:33:54.759 --> 00:33:58.279
you'll also talk about result only work environment. Can you
589
00:33:58.319 --> 00:33:59.359
shed some light on that.
590
00:34:01.039 --> 00:34:03.640
Yeah, this is an interesting one, I think, especially in
591
00:34:04.119 --> 00:34:06.559
you know, this has been around for a while now,
592
00:34:07.079 --> 00:34:10.880
talking about performance measures and looking at the focus on
593
00:34:11.039 --> 00:34:14.639
the product or the result, right, the outcome as opposed
594
00:34:14.679 --> 00:34:17.519
to a lot of the other things that get measured
595
00:34:17.559 --> 00:34:20.639
when we think about you know, evaluations, right, as we
596
00:34:20.679 --> 00:34:23.199
think about all the different evaluation systems that we use
597
00:34:23.199 --> 00:34:26.719
out there. How often are they focused in on this
598
00:34:26.920 --> 00:34:31.119
results piece of it? And this is important especially, I
599
00:34:31.119 --> 00:34:34.199
think in this kind of post COVID world, as we
600
00:34:34.840 --> 00:34:38.119
again we learned what remote work was all about. For
601
00:34:38.159 --> 00:34:40.880
those who didn't know what it was before COVID, they
602
00:34:40.920 --> 00:34:46.280
certainly do now we've all experienced it, and also understanding
603
00:34:46.599 --> 00:34:50.760
what the flexibility around remote work provides, and so thinking
604
00:34:50.760 --> 00:34:54.880
about what flex work arrangements look like and where they
605
00:34:54.920 --> 00:34:59.079
add value for different employees and to the business overall.
606
00:34:59.599 --> 00:35:01.320
So I think that that's a you know, that's an
607
00:35:01.360 --> 00:35:03.880
important part of this and the and the results only
608
00:35:03.960 --> 00:35:07.159
work environment. So moving forward, you know, when you have
609
00:35:07.400 --> 00:35:10.599
people who are working remotely, how do you measure their
610
00:35:10.679 --> 00:35:14.199
work performance differently or the same as you do if
611
00:35:14.199 --> 00:35:17.119
they're in person? Right where I'm seeing them all the
612
00:35:17.239 --> 00:35:20.559
time in a in an in person environment, I'm not
613
00:35:20.599 --> 00:35:23.960
seeing them all the time necessarily in a remote work environment.
614
00:35:24.320 --> 00:35:27.760
So what does where? What are the limitations in being
615
00:35:27.760 --> 00:35:31.760
able to assess performance on an individual basis or even
616
00:35:31.760 --> 00:35:34.039
a team basis as we go through that, and so
617
00:35:34.760 --> 00:35:36.719
this is where we've had to spend more time I
618
00:35:36.719 --> 00:35:40.599
think really leveraging some of the best practices out there
619
00:35:40.599 --> 00:35:44.519
in terms of how do we measure not just the
620
00:35:44.679 --> 00:35:47.760
number of hours worked in a day, which tells me
621
00:35:48.880 --> 00:35:52.000
maybe level of effort. Maybe I don't know, it could
622
00:35:52.039 --> 00:35:55.320
tell us that, but really it's it's not really telling me.
623
00:35:55.960 --> 00:35:58.239
What I really want to know is is how productive
624
00:35:58.280 --> 00:36:01.360
were you as an employee? How what did you contribute
625
00:36:01.400 --> 00:36:03.880
to the team? What do you contribute to the organization?
626
00:36:04.159 --> 00:36:08.960
How did you further our mission or our business operations
627
00:36:09.559 --> 00:36:12.280
in that twelve hours or whatever many hours you worked
628
00:36:12.599 --> 00:36:15.599
in that period of time? I don't know, right, And
629
00:36:15.639 --> 00:36:18.840
so we if we start, we're measuring things like number
630
00:36:18.880 --> 00:36:22.159
of hours work, numbers of days work. Those things don't
631
00:36:22.159 --> 00:36:25.480
tell us the same thing as that. And there were
632
00:36:25.559 --> 00:36:28.400
lots of great examples, and maybe I'll let Brad share
633
00:36:28.480 --> 00:36:31.199
he has a couple of favorite examples there around what
634
00:36:31.320 --> 00:36:35.400
it means to you know, expect people to be in
635
00:36:35.480 --> 00:36:38.239
person one and then and not just in person, but
636
00:36:38.360 --> 00:36:41.159
be there for long hours. But there's really not a
637
00:36:41.159 --> 00:36:43.440
whole lot of productivity going on there if we're not
638
00:36:43.559 --> 00:36:44.599
measuring it properly.
639
00:36:45.639 --> 00:36:48.320
So here's here's a terrific example for you, Tivia. We
640
00:36:48.360 --> 00:36:51.840
got to interview Bridget Shulty and she said, Hey, when
641
00:36:51.880 --> 00:36:55.159
I was at the Washington Post as a journalist, I
642
00:36:55.239 --> 00:36:58.840
had an editor who would come around the newsroom floor
643
00:36:58.920 --> 00:37:03.159
at like, you know, for midnight, and he would later say,
644
00:37:03.239 --> 00:37:05.719
I know who all my good reporters are because they're
645
00:37:05.719 --> 00:37:08.920
here at eleven o'clock at night, right working on stories.
646
00:37:09.599 --> 00:37:12.400
And her thought was, you should know who your good
647
00:37:12.440 --> 00:37:15.440
reporters are by the quality of their journalism and the
648
00:37:15.519 --> 00:37:19.159
quality of their stories. And she said, most of those
649
00:37:19.199 --> 00:37:23.239
people sitting there at midnight on their computers were dudes
650
00:37:23.840 --> 00:37:27.639
with no caregiving obligations who were playing solitaire right. They
651
00:37:27.679 --> 00:37:31.239
weren't being productive. So it's a terrible measure. And this
652
00:37:31.360 --> 00:37:36.119
is why the results only work environment can be so helpful.
653
00:37:36.400 --> 00:37:40.199
We had another interviewee say, you know, when I tried
654
00:37:40.199 --> 00:37:45.480
to propose much more generous flex work policies, I had
655
00:37:45.480 --> 00:37:48.480
a couple of male managers push back and say, oh,
656
00:37:48.519 --> 00:37:51.719
I'm not letting her take flex work because I know
657
00:37:51.840 --> 00:37:55.920
she's just going to be doing the laundry. Right. And
658
00:37:56.159 --> 00:38:00.519
later that day she finds these same two dudes, you know,
659
00:38:01.000 --> 00:38:04.119
standing around the water cooler spending a half hour talking
660
00:38:04.159 --> 00:38:07.239
about Monday night football, and she walked up to them
661
00:38:07.280 --> 00:38:09.599
and just said, you guys are doing laundry right now
662
00:38:09.679 --> 00:38:12.599
you realize that, right, you're doing laundry. And it was
663
00:38:13.679 --> 00:38:17.519
such I hope an epiphany for those guys, you know,
664
00:38:17.840 --> 00:38:21.920
to think about their biases related to flex work. So
665
00:38:22.239 --> 00:38:26.239
we have work to do in changing presenteeism narratives. Right.
666
00:38:26.320 --> 00:38:30.320
We tend to assume that the most productive effective employees
667
00:38:30.360 --> 00:38:32.519
are the ones we see all the time or are
668
00:38:32.559 --> 00:38:36.559
sitting in their office, and it's not correlated often with
669
00:38:36.639 --> 00:38:38.039
their actual contribution.
670
00:38:39.119 --> 00:38:41.880
Absolutely, And here's the thing. A lot of companies are
671
00:38:41.920 --> 00:38:46.400
recognizing that, and for that reason, they're providing their employees
672
00:38:46.719 --> 00:38:49.960
unlimited PTO. They can take as much time off as
673
00:38:50.000 --> 00:38:53.159
they want. And the focus is productivity, the focus is results.
674
00:38:53.519 --> 00:38:58.119
The focus is that timeliness and that has gone long
675
00:38:58.239 --> 00:39:01.079
ways for a lot of different companies because employees can
676
00:39:01.119 --> 00:39:06.599
be present but mentally absent. So we have talked a
677
00:39:06.639 --> 00:39:10.679
lot about things, where can people reach you, how can
678
00:39:10.719 --> 00:39:14.079
they find you? Share, share with us about your books?
679
00:39:15.000 --> 00:39:18.400
Yeah, certainly so. I think two big things. Go to
680
00:39:18.480 --> 00:39:22.880
our website and that's workplace Allies dot com, and you
681
00:39:22.880 --> 00:39:25.079
can find out about the work Dave and I have
682
00:39:25.239 --> 00:39:28.960
been doing and find out about the books we've written,
683
00:39:30.000 --> 00:39:32.880
and then also take a look at our forthcoming book,
684
00:39:33.000 --> 00:39:38.920
Fair Share, comes out January. I'm sorry, June thirtieth coming.
685
00:39:39.320 --> 00:39:41.679
I think I'm stressed out because it's coming fast the
686
00:39:41.760 --> 00:39:45.000
end of this month, June thirtieth, fair Share. This is
687
00:39:45.079 --> 00:39:47.639
kind of a deep dive into much of what we've
688
00:39:47.639 --> 00:39:51.960
been talking about today, Diva. How do we change the workplace,
689
00:39:52.360 --> 00:39:55.639
change the way we think about work, how work gets done,
690
00:39:56.760 --> 00:40:01.400
you know, think about policies connected to giving so that
691
00:40:01.960 --> 00:40:04.639
we can invite men into their full power at home
692
00:40:05.360 --> 00:40:08.679
and then invite women into their full power in the workplace.
693
00:40:08.760 --> 00:40:11.840
We want to get to that kind of equal caregiving,
694
00:40:12.519 --> 00:40:17.639
equal work opportunity for both genders. So that's our new book.
695
00:40:18.599 --> 00:40:22.239
Yeah, and please reach out to us on social media
696
00:40:22.239 --> 00:40:25.360
on LinkedIn. We'll keep the conversation going and we look
697
00:40:25.440 --> 00:40:28.239
forward to engaging with everybody and talking more about how
698
00:40:28.280 --> 00:40:29.360
to get your fair share?
699
00:40:30.599 --> 00:40:35.440
Is there any last quick nugget sayall would like to share?
700
00:40:38.159 --> 00:40:39.480
Dave, any last nugget?
701
00:40:41.039 --> 00:40:41.239
Yeah?
702
00:40:41.280 --> 00:40:45.239
I think one of the most important things that I
703
00:40:45.320 --> 00:40:48.719
took away from the work that we did in writing
704
00:40:48.840 --> 00:40:54.119
Fair Share was that we all do caregiving. We all
705
00:40:54.280 --> 00:40:56.880
associate ourselves as you know, and think of ourselves as
706
00:40:56.880 --> 00:40:59.679
caregivers at some point in our careers and our lives,
707
00:41:00.039 --> 00:41:02.719
especially in our work careers, and that remember that that's
708
00:41:02.800 --> 00:41:05.039
true for everybody else that you work with or who
709
00:41:05.119 --> 00:41:10.280
works for you. And it's time, especially you know, in
710
00:41:10.320 --> 00:41:13.639
the United States, for us to start recognizing this is
711
00:41:13.679 --> 00:41:16.719
an important part of who we are. We have these
712
00:41:16.760 --> 00:41:19.079
obligations and needs and we need to be able to
713
00:41:19.760 --> 00:41:23.480
lean into those, one because there's not a lot of
714
00:41:23.519 --> 00:41:27.960
great caregiving support in this country. And two, when we
715
00:41:28.360 --> 00:41:31.119
are allowed to do that, it makes us better employees too,
716
00:41:31.199 --> 00:41:33.239
It makes us more committed to the work that we do.
717
00:41:33.760 --> 00:41:36.079
And so let's help each other in doing that.
718
00:41:37.159 --> 00:41:41.639
Absolutely. Thank you David, Thank you Brett for joining us, because,
719
00:41:42.559 --> 00:41:47.320
as you mentioned, caregiving is important, whether it's as a parent,
720
00:41:47.679 --> 00:41:52.440
as a child, taking care of your elderly parents, or
721
00:41:52.480 --> 00:41:55.639
for someone else in your life, whether it's a friend
722
00:41:55.719 --> 00:41:59.599
or whoever it is, it's an important part and it's
723
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the kindess that we need to extend not only towards
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ourselves but to our colleagues and people who are in
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that space. So thank you for joining us, and thank
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you one of the audience for being part of her
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show because without you, the show would not be possible.
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00:42:14.119 --> 00:42:16.159
Please reach out and let us know how we can
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serve and support you so that you can live the
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00:42:19.920 --> 00:42:23.840
life that you deserve. And thank you on a tech
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genius for making the ship possible. Be well and take care.
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00:42:27.599 --> 00:42:30.199
Thank you for being part of Beyond Confidence with your host,
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Divva Park, we hope you have learned more about how
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to start living the life you want. Each week on
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00:42:35.480 --> 00:42:38.960
Beyond Confidence, you hear stories of real people who've experienced
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growth by overcoming their fears and building meaningful relationships. During
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00:42:43.199 --> 00:42:46.320
Beyond Confidence, Va Park shares what happened to her when
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she stepped out of her comfort zone to work directly
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with people across the globe. She not only coaches people
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00:42:51.880 --> 00:42:55.400
how to form HERD connections, but also transform relationships to
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mutually beneficial partnerships as they strive to live the life
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00:42:58.880 --> 00:43:01.360
they want. You are ready to live the life you
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want and leverage your strengths. Learn more at www Dotwpark
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00:43:06.280 --> 00:43:09.559
dot com and you can connect with w at contact
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00:43:09.599 --> 00:43:12.960
at dwpark dot com. We look forward to you joining
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us next week.