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Hey everybody, welcome back to another episode of Between Sessions with Berries.
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We have quite a distinguished guest today.
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I'm so excited to record this episode.
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Tina Seelig is executive director of Knight Hennessy Scholars and director emeritus of the Stanford Technology Ventures Program at Stanford University.
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She teaches courses that are focused on innovation, entrepreneurship, and leadership.
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Dr.
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Sealig earned her PhD in neuroscience at Stanford Medical School and has been a management consultant, entrepreneur, and author of 18 books, including her newest book, What I Wish I Knew About Luck.
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I can't wait to talk about this topic.
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She's the recipient of the Gordon Prize from the National Academy of Engineering, the Olympus Innovation Award, and the Silicon Valley Visionary Award.
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Oh my gosh.
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I feel so honored to have you here.
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I'm really excited.
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Before we dig in, I just want to tell the story to the listeners.
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Tao, the co-founder of Berries, he was like, Kim, I have to have her on the podcast because you were like a huge inspiration to him.
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He read one of your books, one of his favorite books of all times.
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He said, What I Wish I Knew When I Was 20.
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He said it changed his life.
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So he came across you doing podcasts somewhere else, and he was like, I've got to ask her.
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And you agreed.
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So we're super excited to have you here.
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Thank you so much.
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It is really my pleasure.
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I am very, very passionate about this topic and am so happy to be able to share it with your audience.
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Oh my gosh.
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So, okay, let's dig in.
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Let's just start with what is the difference between fortune and luck?
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Great.
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And I'm so glad you started there because people don't even know what luck is, right?
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If I go to a room of people and I say, well, gosh, who wants to be lucky?
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They say, Oh, I want to be lucky.
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It's like, okay, well, what is luck?
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And no one can define it clearly.
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And it's very important to start with the definition of luck because the definition of luck is success or failure apparently caused by chance.
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It's that apparently caused by chance, it's so interesting because it looks like it's caused by chance, but it could be something that you actually had agency over.
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And it's quite different from fortune because fortune is the things that happen to you.
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That's you're either fortunate or unfortunate, right?
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You might be fortunate or unfortunate to be born into a particular family or in a particular place and time, or what the weather is on your birthday, right?
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These things are out of your control.
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But luck is something over which you have much more agency.
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And that's what I'm excited about sharing is all the tools that we each have at our disposal to unlock opportunities for good luck in our lives.
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Yeah, I really want to dig into it because I mean, I feel like a lot of people, especially being a therapist, seeing so many clients over the years, you always hear, I'm just unlucky.
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You know, it's just that's my lot in life.
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I'm just unlucky, that kind of thing.
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So I feel like people kind of get that belief about themselves in their mind, and it sort of dictates the trajectory of their life almost in a way.
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It's like a negative affirmation that they tell themselves over and over again.
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So I'd love to just talk about like, let's just dig into how do you start to shape your life to be more lucky?
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Like, how do you manifest that or bring that into your life?
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You asked about people being unlucky.
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Where do you start?
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Yeah.
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Super important question.
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Because there are so many things that you can do to set the stage for being luckier in your life.
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The framework I use in this new book is that opportunities for good luck are ubiquitous.
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They are plentiful, but they're invisible.
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They're like the wind.
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They're like the wind.
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They're powerful, they're ever-present, but you can't see them.
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They're not obvious.
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And so those people who are luckier know how to build a sail to catch the winds of luck.
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And this is really important, right?
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And so, because you'll see some people who just look like they've been like, wow, how come they were so lucky?
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What I'm trying to do is pull back the curtain so that you can see what it is that lucky people do to catch the winds of luck.
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Well, let's just dive into it.
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Everybody listening is probably like, okay, tell me the secrets then.
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How do I catch the winds of luck?
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So, what are the invisible things out there that maybe we're not thinking about consciously that are just probably all around us?
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And like you're saying, if we can catch the wind the right way, it can guide us to having a more lucky life.
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Exactly, exactly.
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Well, one of my colleagues used to say, and I think it's totally brilliant, used to say, There's a million dollars in every room, it's up to you to find it.
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So part of it is having the mindset that there is something to discover in every person you meet, in every opportunity you're in.
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But let's back up a minute.
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Because if luck is like the wind and you need a sail to catch it, there are lots of ways to engage with the winds of luck, right?
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There are lots of ways to do that.
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You could just, and many of your clients might do this.
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I'm just gonna stay inside and shut the shutters.
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I'm not even gonna pay attention.
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Like I'm just unlucky.
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Well, guess what?
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You're not even looking.
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You're not even seeing the opportunities there.
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So you can just stay inside and shut the shutters.
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You can be like a wind vane who's paying attention but not doing anything, just sort of swiveling on your axis.
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You can be like a hot air balloon where you're letting the winds of luck take you where they may, but you're not really owning any of the agency there.
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You can be like a windmill where you are catching very effectively and efficiently the winds of luck in a very local place, or you can be like a sailboat out following those winds and catching those winds and taking you to some lucky opportunities that might be over the horizon.
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And there are different places in our life and different times where we want to engage in different ways.
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You know, there might be a time where you go, you know what, I am so focused.
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I don't know, let's just make up something.
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Let's pretend I'm a brand new parent and I'm like, I'm focused right here, and I need to shut the shutters.
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Or maybe you're in a position where it's like, I just want to look around now.
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I'm not ready to make a move.
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Or maybe you say I need to be a leaf in the wind for a while, like a hot air balloon.
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I mean, I've done that in my life where we go, I just need to take a sabbatical and kind of see what's out there.
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There are times when you might be a windmill, you're in a job, you're in a lab, you're in school, and I'm gonna capture all the luck right here.
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And there are times when you say, I've got some big dreams, and I need that sailboat to take me over the horizon to where I want to go.
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Wow, right.
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So we could be in a different transition in life throughout life, and we could be one of all of these things throughout our lives, depending on what's going on with us.
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How open and willing we are to opportunities that are probably right in front of all of us if we take the time or we decide to direct the sailboat that way at that moment in our life, I guess, right?
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Exactly.
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But being cognizant of it is really powerful.
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Knowing how you're going to engage right now, given where you are in your life and what your aspirations are.
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In fact, the subtitle of the book is How to Turn Your Aspirations into Achievements.
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It's how do you know what your aspirations are and then leverage the things you have around you to get to where you want to go?
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That's amazing.
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So somebody listening, right, and they're like, okay, I want to embrace the winds.
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I want to change this.
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Maybe they've been in this trajectory their whole life where they keep missing opportunities, that sort of thing.
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From a neuroscience perspective, what type of shifts do we have to make mindset-wise to decide we're going to become that person that wants to direct the sailboat in the correct way to get more lucky?
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Great.
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Wonderful.
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Well, so first you need to do is to build that sailboat, right?
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First, you need the foundation, you need to build that sailboat.
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And to build your ship or your sailboat, you need to do a number of things.
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And there are five things that are outlined in the book.
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One is you need to know your core values.
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Why am I starting with core values?
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Because if you don't know your core values, which are like the ballast on your ship, they're like the keel that keeps you steady, you are going to capsize when you end up in situations where you get tested.
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All you have to do is read the newspaper to see people who've ended up in prison or people who have lost jobs or people who've lost relationships because they don't have clear core values that allow them to be manipulated or to make really bad decisions.
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So understanding your core values, you also need to know the story you tell about who you are.
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I'm sure this is something that therapists do all the time, help their clients understand what's the story you're telling.
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Is this story empowering or not?
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And this is critical because the story we tell about who we are in the world helps us shape the opportunities that we actually see for ourselves.
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And if we can shift that story into one that's more empowering, we end up being luckier.
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Third, you need to build your skills, right?
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Your skills are almost like the sail that you have.
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It's the size of your sail that determines how much wind you can capture.
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And so the more you know, the more skills you have.
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This is an important thing.
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You don't just will yourself to go.
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You need actually the skills to do it.
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You need to be able to be resilient.
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You need to be able to take risks, to understand your risk profile, and to know how to have the skill of bouncing back when you have inevitable failures and disappointments.
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That will happen.
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And so knowing your risk profile and being willing to stretch and to bounce back is critical.
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And fifth, you need to know where you want to go.
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You need to have your direction.
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You need to have a North Star that allows you to say, okay, this is where I'm trying to go.
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This is how I'm going to direct my ship, my sailboat, so I can get to my objectives.
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Amazing.
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Oh my gosh.
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Yeah.
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So I would love to touch on every single one of those stages.
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The one that really stood out to me is that resilience, that risk profile.
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How do you even identify, like, what is my level of risk profile?
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And then how do you decide to make take chances based on that?
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I'd love to know more about that.
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Yeah.
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Great, great.
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So I introduced the concept of a riskometer.
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Imagine a spider chart, a chart that looks like a spider web with five or six spokes coming out of it.
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And each one of those spokes is a different type of risk.
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Now, it's a funny thing because if you ask people, are you a risk taker?
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They're going to say yes or no.
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But that's a trick question because risk taking is not binary, right?
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There's social risks, emotional risks, physical risks, intellectual risks, you know, all different types of risks.
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And so you can map yourself on this.
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Like I am a very high social risk taker and a high emotional risk taker, but a really low financial risk taker and a low physical risk taker.
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And so you map your risk profile and you go, oh, this is interesting.
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If I want to go and take on some sort of physical challenge, I'm going to have to stretch, right?
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If I say I'm going to go run a marathon, wow, that's so kind of out of my comfort zone.
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Or I want to jump out of a perfectly good airplane.
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Wow, that's really out of my comfort zone.
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Am I really going to do it?
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And if I am, how do I prepare myself for that?
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And an important thing to keep in mind about this is most people who are comfortable taking risks, like physical risks or social risks or emotional risks or financial risks, any of these risks, they prepare, right?
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I don't get up and give a talk to a thousand people just without any preparation.
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I know my talk, I know my material, I've practiced.
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Nobody jumps out of a perfectly good airplane unless they know that their parachute is packed properly.
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No one invests in a company unless they've done their due diligence.
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And so part of the process of getting more comfortable with risk taking is understanding the preparation you need to make the risk less risky.
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Yes, because I think a lot of people, I mean, we're saying nobody does that, but I think a lot of people do.
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They just like maybe sometimes just jump into something without thinking it through all the way and then maybe prematurely fail where they could have been successful if they had just sat back and maybe planned a little bit more.
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It might have been a more successful risk that they might have taken in the long run.
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Yeah.
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You're absolutely right.
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You're actually absolutely right.
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Right.
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There are people who jump into things without thinking about it.
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But people who are professionals, like a professional venture capitalist, a professional investor is someone who's going to say, hey, I'm going to do my due diligence.
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A professional speaker is going to make sure that they're prepared.
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The way that you become good at taking more risks is to not only practice, but to also be extremely well prepared.
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Right?
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If I'm going to have a difficult conversation with you, I'm going to be prepared.
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I'm going to think about what might be your point of view.
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How can I do this in a way so you're going to be able to hear me?
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How do I get my emotional state in the right place so that I don't come off as being aggressive?
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In every aspect of our risk taking, we can be prepared, both with skills and our mindset and preparation to make the risk less risky.
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I love that.
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And then that leads into something else you talked about, the skills.
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So I would imagine, is it a different skill set for every like rung on the risk wheel?
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Or how does it work?
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Absolutely.
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Absolutely.
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So am I willing to take on big problems?
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So someone who's a PhD student would say, like, I'm going to go out into the frontier and I'm going to try to solve problems no one solved before.
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That's a real risk.
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How do you get comfortable doing that?
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You start taking tiny risks, intellectual risks, until finally you go, okay, I'm comfortable with this.
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I'm going to tackle an even bigger problem.
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You know, you started with values, the first step.
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I could see how that plays in.
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If your values are, I need to change the world, and then you go on to become a PhD and you want to do research that's nobody's done before, I could see the trajectory of that once you identify all of those stages.
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And it can help you be more successful over time.
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Yes.
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And exactly like luck.
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Exactly.
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So the thing is, once you've built your ship, the next stage is you need to recruit your crew.
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Most people find luck that comes through other people.
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You're not going to be sailing solo.
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In fact, I say luck seldom sails solo.
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You need other people on your team.
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And so you have to think about what are the things you can do to get other people on your team, on your crew to help you on this journey.
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And those are things like asking for what you want, knowing how to ask in a way that it's likely that people are going to say yes, helping other people, showing appreciation.
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These things seem obvious, but many people don't do them.
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For example, I am the thank you note queen.
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I have a practice that every day at the end of the day before I go to bed, I write thank you notes.
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They're emails.
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I'm not sitting writing letters and envelopes with stamps, but I send emails to everyone that day who has done something that has been meaningful to me.
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It doesn't take that long.
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And not only do I feel much more grateful for the things people did, I have demonstrated that appreciation.
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And I can promise you it comes back in waves and waves of goodwill when people see that you have shown appreciation for things they've done for you.
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Oh my goodness.
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Yeah.
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So building your team, but also showing appreciation, support, and gratitude for your team to keep it strong and support it, I guess, your crew on the ship that's going to guide you through being lucky.
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Oh my gosh.
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Yeah.
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Right.
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That's amazing.
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And then the third thing is you want to hoist the sail, right?
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Okay.
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This is the things you do every single day to tempt good luck your way.
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And it might be asking a lot of questions.
00:16:35.320 --> 00:16:37.960
It might be meeting someone new.
00:16:38.200 --> 00:16:40.680
It might be honing your resilience.
00:16:40.759 --> 00:16:45.799
There are things that you can do every single day that tempt good luck your way.
00:16:45.960 --> 00:16:51.639
Keep in mind, Kim, we are always one decision away from a completely different life, right?
00:16:51.960 --> 00:17:06.599
So if I'm standing in line at the grocery store and I start talking to the person standing next to me, or I could put in my earbuds and listen to my podcast or my music and I don't say hello, I might have a very different life, right?
00:17:06.759 --> 00:17:10.440
If I say hello to that person, we might find we have something in common.
00:17:10.680 --> 00:17:14.599
They might become my new best friend, they might invest in my company.
00:17:14.839 --> 00:17:16.759
There are so many things that could happen.
00:17:16.919 --> 00:17:29.480
I have so many experiences in my life where I have met people who became very important in my life because they were sitting next to me on an airplane or standing in line in a coffee shop.
00:17:29.799 --> 00:17:37.880
And if you don't take the time to say hello and just engage, you never know what's going to happen when you make that connection.
00:17:38.200 --> 00:17:38.680
Love that.
00:17:38.839 --> 00:17:39.319
I love that.
00:17:39.480 --> 00:17:40.920
So that's one of those skill sets.
00:17:41.000 --> 00:17:45.000
Just opening yourself up to opportunities and possibilities, definitely.
00:17:45.240 --> 00:17:49.240
People sitting right around you could be your next big lucky break.
00:17:49.720 --> 00:17:50.359
Exactly.
00:17:50.599 --> 00:17:51.720
Yeah, that's amazing.
00:17:51.880 --> 00:17:54.039
Okay, so and then what comes after that?
00:17:54.120 --> 00:17:56.599
Like hoist your sail and and then that's it.
00:17:56.680 --> 00:18:00.759
So you need to build your ship, you need to recruit your crew, and you need to hoist your sail.
00:18:00.839 --> 00:18:04.759
Those are the three pieces of catching the winds of luck.
00:18:05.079 --> 00:18:05.799
Amazing.
00:18:06.039 --> 00:18:11.000
So once you've got it all assembled, the other part you talked about is like, where do you want to go?
00:18:11.160 --> 00:18:16.519
So at what point in this strategy or this process are you saying, like, where do I actually want to go with this?
00:18:16.680 --> 00:18:27.400
Or is it just like a vague, like, I want my life to look like this, or do you recommend like having a set goal based on your values and then following this path that you're laying out in your book?
00:18:27.799 --> 00:18:28.680
So it's interesting.
00:18:28.839 --> 00:18:34.920
Having taught creative problem solving for many years, one of the frameworks we use is about flaring and focusing, right?
00:18:35.079 --> 00:18:39.720
And there are times in which you're going to flare and sort of open your aperture and see different opportunities.
00:18:39.880 --> 00:18:43.480
There are times in which you're going to focus and be very, very deliberate.
00:18:43.799 --> 00:18:47.000
This happens not just over the course of like weeks or months.
00:18:47.079 --> 00:18:48.920
It can happen even in the same day.
00:18:49.319 --> 00:18:51.240
I could say, right now I'm flaring.
00:18:51.319 --> 00:18:55.480
I'm going to go out for lunch and I'm going to say hello to everybody I meet along the way.
00:18:55.640 --> 00:18:58.920
Or I'm going to take courses, a course on something I know nothing about.
00:18:59.000 --> 00:19:02.200
And then there are places you're going to focus, like, okay, I'm writing a book.
00:19:02.279 --> 00:19:11.480
I'm going to be spend the next two hours writing, or I'm having dinner with my partner, and I'm going to really focus on making this relationship as strong as possible.
00:19:11.640 --> 00:19:15.640
So the combination of understanding where you're flaring and when you're focusing.
00:19:15.720 --> 00:19:19.559
And so your goals can be very different even within a day.
00:19:19.880 --> 00:19:21.319
But you're absolutely right.
00:19:21.480 --> 00:19:29.079
Knowing where you want to go, the more specific you are, the more likely you're going to be able to find the resources that are going to help you get there.
00:19:29.319 --> 00:19:37.240
And so knowing where you want to go allows you to collect the resources that are going to help you get you on your journey.
00:19:37.559 --> 00:19:37.960
Yeah.
00:19:38.120 --> 00:19:39.000
Oh my gosh.
00:19:39.079 --> 00:19:39.400
Yeah.
00:19:39.480 --> 00:19:41.559
That's such helpful advice.
00:19:41.880 --> 00:19:42.200
Okay.
00:19:42.519 --> 00:19:55.559
So in all of this, you describe so many actions that increase luck, such as taking risks, building on tiny wins, bouncing back from failure, embracing imposter syndrome.
00:19:55.799 --> 00:19:58.759
Why do these actions lead to more luck?
00:19:59.079 --> 00:20:00.839
Yeah, there's so many ways.
00:20:01.000 --> 00:20:04.279
So let's, I don't know, let it pick which one you want to dive into.
00:20:04.519 --> 00:20:05.799
How about imposter syndrome?
00:20:05.880 --> 00:20:08.519
Because I feel like that comes up a lot for therapists.
00:20:08.680 --> 00:20:12.120
They get in the room and they quickly realize I know nothing.
00:20:12.359 --> 00:20:19.079
You know, I went to school, I learned all this stuff, but I actually know nothing because, you know, you're presented with a different client every day and different problems and issues.
00:20:19.240 --> 00:20:20.519
So why don't we talk about that?
00:20:20.680 --> 00:20:21.640
Imposter syndrome.
00:20:21.960 --> 00:20:27.240
Yeah, I like to reframe imposter syndrome as improvement syndrome.
00:20:27.400 --> 00:20:32.440
You know, nobody is good at everything when they just start.
00:20:32.759 --> 00:20:41.640
And if we realize that we're always improving and when we put ourselves in situations where we feel like an imposter, and honestly, I'm an old person.
00:20:41.799 --> 00:20:48.599
I still feel that way every day when I put myself in situations like, wow, I don't really know what to do right here, right now.
00:20:48.839 --> 00:20:50.120
But you experiment.
00:20:50.359 --> 00:20:57.960
One of the things that I've learned from my wonderful colleague, Alberto Savoia, is the idea of doing what he calls pretotypes.
00:20:58.200 --> 00:20:59.720
Now, what's a pretotype?
00:20:59.880 --> 00:21:03.960
Now, this is, I think, important also for therapists to help their clients understand.
00:21:04.200 --> 00:21:11.240
A prototype tests if something will work, but a pretotype tests if you're doing the right thing, if you're even working on the right thing.
00:21:11.400 --> 00:21:17.960
So you can do tiny experiments in your life, tiny, so that the failure is tiny.
00:21:18.120 --> 00:21:24.359
You know, you don't want to invest a huge amount of time and effort into something that has a high risk.
00:21:24.599 --> 00:21:28.120
You want to put a tiny investment in to test the waters.
00:21:28.279 --> 00:21:30.519
I mean, this is, you know, why we date people.
00:21:30.680 --> 00:21:35.319
We don't just go and meet someone and go marry them the first day and go, oh great, let's go get married.
00:21:35.480 --> 00:21:38.599
You go on dates, you get lots of data, right?
00:21:38.839 --> 00:21:47.480
Every time you meet someone new, every interaction is more data that you're gathering, and you end up being able to do little experiments.
00:21:47.720 --> 00:22:02.440
And so understanding that we're always improving and stretching and acknowledging that to yourself is a way to realize that, yes, everybody, in fact, most people feel like an impostor most of the time because guess what?
00:22:02.839 --> 00:22:05.240
Nobody gave me a script for the day.
00:22:05.400 --> 00:22:07.000
Did they get, did you get a script for the day?
00:22:07.160 --> 00:22:07.559
No, I did that.
00:22:07.799 --> 00:22:08.359
I don't think so.
00:22:08.680 --> 00:22:09.000
Exactly.
00:22:09.079 --> 00:22:17.880
And so we're going to be presented with lots of different things that throw us off and are like, wow, I'm not, I that's a new thing.
00:22:18.039 --> 00:22:19.720
How can I learn and grow from this?
00:22:19.880 --> 00:22:26.680
And I think understanding that this is a normal part of just life, nobody walked the first time they tried.
00:22:27.400 --> 00:22:30.039
Nobody rode a bicycle the first time they tried.
00:22:30.359 --> 00:22:37.000
Why do we expect adults who are doing really complicated things to do it perfectly the first time they tried?
00:22:37.240 --> 00:22:43.240
And so giving yourself the grace to understand that we're constantly growing is really, really powerful.
00:22:43.559 --> 00:22:44.120
I love that.
00:22:44.200 --> 00:22:44.440
Yeah.
00:22:44.519 --> 00:22:46.039
I mean, I think we forget, right?
00:22:46.279 --> 00:22:50.839
We just forget over time and think we should have it all together all the time, especially therapists, you know.
00:22:51.000 --> 00:22:53.720
We're supposed to be helping other people in their lives.
00:22:53.799 --> 00:22:59.160
And then if we can't figure it out, it just feels like it's really difficult for a lot of therapists to deal with that.
00:22:59.400 --> 00:23:00.039
Comes up a lot.
00:23:00.200 --> 00:23:00.920
So I love that.
00:23:01.079 --> 00:23:06.039
Little teeny pieces of things that break down the imposter syndrome over time, I guess.
00:23:06.200 --> 00:23:11.160
So the more you do these little teeny risks, the better the imposter syndrome will get, I'm guessing.
00:23:11.400 --> 00:23:15.799
Then you'll be able to take more chances and risk, and then your luck will increase over time.
00:23:16.039 --> 00:23:23.559
And I'm assuming with a therapist, I mean, I'm certainly not an expert on this at all, but if you actually acknowledge your client, hey, guess what?
00:23:23.720 --> 00:23:26.359
Wow, this is a really tough problem to solve.
00:23:26.599 --> 00:23:28.759
Let's see if we can solve it together.
00:23:28.920 --> 00:23:30.759
Let's look at it from different angles.
00:23:30.920 --> 00:23:33.160
Let's explore different ways we can think about it.
00:23:33.319 --> 00:23:38.120
That you feel like you're on a team with them as opposed to feeling like you have to have all the answers.
00:23:39.000 --> 00:23:39.960
Yeah, absolutely.
00:23:40.039 --> 00:23:40.599
I love that.
00:23:40.680 --> 00:23:42.120
And that helps break it down, right?
00:23:42.200 --> 00:23:46.279
If you don't have to act like you have it all together, it takes the pressure off, I think.
00:23:46.680 --> 00:23:47.240
Exactly.
00:23:47.480 --> 00:23:48.680
Yeah, it definitely does.
00:23:48.839 --> 00:23:50.599
Oh my goodness, this is so helpful.
00:23:50.759 --> 00:23:53.240
Because people ask me all the time, they're like, Kim, you're so lucky.
00:23:53.319 --> 00:23:58.200
Like you've got a lot of stuff going on, like you're working with berries and you've got income streams and all this stuff.
00:23:58.279 --> 00:24:00.120
And people will say that to me all the time.
00:24:00.279 --> 00:24:02.279
And I always say, like, it's not luck.
00:24:02.359 --> 00:24:04.759
I feel like I've just really worked hard to get there.
00:24:04.920 --> 00:24:15.400
But hearing you like put words to it, the trajectory that you're talking about actually was a lucky path that I've taken to get where I am today by putting all these little pieces together.
00:24:15.559 --> 00:24:20.680
But I never really had a framework for it to be able to say, this is actually what I did to get where I am right now.
00:24:20.920 --> 00:24:22.680
Well, so let's let's talk about that for a second.
00:24:22.839 --> 00:24:23.160
Yeah, sure.
00:24:23.400 --> 00:24:27.480
Because one of the things I have my students do is a fortune and luck resume.
00:24:27.720 --> 00:24:35.640
So imagine take a piece of paper and you write fortune on one side and luck on the other, because we're in a constant dance between fortune and luck in our lives, right?
00:24:35.720 --> 00:24:37.799
The things that happen to us and how we respond.
00:24:38.039 --> 00:24:40.519
You can ask me a question, I don't know what you're gonna ask me.
00:24:40.759 --> 00:24:42.599
I then have to decide how I respond.
00:24:42.759 --> 00:24:44.920
And then you recide, and then the things come back to me.
00:24:45.000 --> 00:24:46.440
And so we're in this dance.
00:24:46.599 --> 00:24:53.400
And if we can start unpacking what are the things that happened to us and then how we responded.
00:24:53.720 --> 00:24:56.839
So, for example, you have a job working for berries.
00:24:56.920 --> 00:24:57.640
How exciting.
00:24:57.799 --> 00:24:58.839
Well, what did you have to do?
00:24:58.920 --> 00:25:01.799
Like nobody just called you up out of the blue and said, You want this?
00:25:02.039 --> 00:25:07.400
You had to have set the table, you had set the stage for that opportunity to happen.
00:25:07.559 --> 00:25:12.200
So someone might see, you might be fortunate to see a job.
00:25:12.359 --> 00:25:15.000
You might be fortunate that a job was posted, right?
00:25:15.079 --> 00:25:15.240
Right.
00:25:15.400 --> 00:25:16.039
It was posted.
00:25:16.200 --> 00:25:18.279
But I'm lucky because I looked it up.
00:25:18.680 --> 00:25:21.960
But then I'm fortunate that it matches my skills.
00:25:22.200 --> 00:25:26.519
But I'm lucky because I wrote a cover letter and a resume and I sent it in.
00:25:26.759 --> 00:25:29.640
Well, then I'm fortunate that I got asked for an interview, right?
00:25:29.720 --> 00:25:30.680
That was out of my control.
00:25:31.079 --> 00:25:35.400
I'm lucky because I prepared for that interview and I walked in.
00:25:35.720 --> 00:25:38.440
I'm fortunate that I was one of the strongest candidates.
00:25:38.839 --> 00:25:41.559
There are things that I didn't control, but they're the things I do.
00:25:41.960 --> 00:25:52.359
And claiming the agency over the things that you do control and parsing what things that happened to you versus what happened, what you did is a very powerful exercise.
00:25:52.680 --> 00:25:53.559
That's amazing.
00:25:53.640 --> 00:25:54.039
Yeah.
00:25:54.200 --> 00:25:58.839
And then being able to see it written out like that, I guess you can ascertain a lot of insights from that.
00:25:59.000 --> 00:26:09.240
Also, like the choices, decisions you made, and implement that in your life in the future if you want to continue to have the good luck or the good fortune, depending on where you are with it.
00:26:09.400 --> 00:26:10.120
Absolutely.
00:26:10.359 --> 00:26:11.319
That's so interesting.
00:26:11.480 --> 00:26:12.440
I love this framework.
00:26:12.599 --> 00:26:14.920
So, where do people find you?
00:26:15.079 --> 00:26:16.120
Where do they learn about you?
00:26:16.200 --> 00:26:17.240
Where do they get your book?
00:26:17.400 --> 00:26:18.440
I want to just tell everybody.
00:26:18.680 --> 00:26:20.200
Well, I'm pretty easy to find.
00:26:20.440 --> 00:26:25.720
You can look at my own website, which is just tinacelig.com or tinacauthor.com.
00:26:25.960 --> 00:26:28.440
I'm happy to connect with people on LinkedIn.
00:26:28.680 --> 00:26:30.120
I'm easy to find there.
00:26:30.279 --> 00:26:34.599
And my book, What I Wish I Knew About Luck, is available wherever books are sold.
00:26:34.759 --> 00:26:41.240
And I also was fortunate I got, I'm fortunate, I was lucky actually, that I got to read the audiobook myself.
00:26:41.480 --> 00:26:43.480
Initially, my publisher didn't want me to do it.
00:26:43.559 --> 00:26:46.279
They typically don't have authors do it.
00:26:46.440 --> 00:26:47.559
And I said, you know what?
00:26:47.640 --> 00:26:48.359
I really want to.
00:26:48.440 --> 00:26:53.079
So I said I'm gonna record a little audition, and they said, Great, you did a good job.
00:26:53.400 --> 00:26:56.120
So if you want to hear more of me, I actually read the book.
00:26:56.359 --> 00:26:58.359
Oh, that is amazing! Congratulations.
00:26:59.000 --> 00:26:59.400
Thank you so much.
00:26:59.799 --> 00:27:00.279
Just so amazing.
00:27:00.519 --> 00:27:03.079
Well, it was it's hard to do, but it's really worth it.
00:27:03.319 --> 00:27:03.799
I bet.
00:27:03.960 --> 00:27:05.000
I think I would stumble.
00:27:05.079 --> 00:27:07.720
It'd be a lot of cuts for me, you know.
00:27:08.120 --> 00:27:10.039
And this is your 18th book, right?
00:27:10.279 --> 00:27:11.559
I have written a lot of books.
00:27:11.720 --> 00:27:13.720
I started writing buddy books when I was three.
00:27:13.799 --> 00:27:14.359
How about that?
00:27:14.759 --> 00:27:17.240
How amazing! I love it.
00:27:17.640 --> 00:27:18.519
That's amazing.
00:27:18.680 --> 00:27:20.920
Well, thank you so much for taking the time today.
00:27:21.000 --> 00:27:22.120
This is super helpful.
00:27:22.279 --> 00:27:24.519
I can't wait to get your book and read it myself.
00:27:24.680 --> 00:27:27.319
So thank you for sharing the framework.
00:27:27.480 --> 00:27:29.960
And anybody listening, please go check it out too.
00:27:30.039 --> 00:27:30.519
I'm excited.
00:27:30.680 --> 00:27:31.880
If you are a listener, reach out.
00:27:31.960 --> 00:27:33.079
I want to hear what you think about it.
00:27:33.240 --> 00:27:34.120
Let's talk about it.
00:27:34.359 --> 00:27:40.440
Tina, thank you so much for coming today and sharing your framework, your wealth of knowledge about this topic.
00:27:40.519 --> 00:27:41.400
I think it's amazing.
00:27:41.640 --> 00:27:42.359
Thank you so much.
00:27:42.440 --> 00:27:44.120
I really appreciate the opportunity.
00:27:44.359 --> 00:27:44.920
Thank you.
00:00:27.479 --> 00:00:31.799
Hey everybody, welcome back to another episode of Between Sessions with Berries.
00:00:32.039 --> 00:00:34.600
We have quite a distinguished guest today.
00:00:34.679 --> 00:00:37.159
I'm so excited to record this episode.
00:00:37.479 --> 00:00:47.879
Tina Seelig is executive director of Knight Hennessy Scholars and director emeritus of the Stanford Technology Ventures Program at Stanford University.
00:00:48.039 --> 00:00:52.280
She teaches courses that are focused on innovation, entrepreneurship, and leadership.
00:00:52.519 --> 00:00:52.759
Dr.
00:00:52.840 --> 00:01:05.719
Sealig earned her PhD in neuroscience at Stanford Medical School and has been a management consultant, entrepreneur, and author of 18 books, including her newest book, What I Wish I Knew About Luck.
00:01:05.879 --> 00:01:07.719
I can't wait to talk about this topic.
00:01:07.879 --> 00:01:16.920
She's the recipient of the Gordon Prize from the National Academy of Engineering, the Olympus Innovation Award, and the Silicon Valley Visionary Award.
00:01:24.280 --> 00:01:25.719
Oh my gosh.
00:01:26.280 --> 00:01:27.879
I feel so honored to have you here.
00:01:27.959 --> 00:01:29.000
I'm really excited.
00:01:29.239 --> 00:01:32.439
Before we dig in, I just want to tell the story to the listeners.
00:01:32.679 --> 00:01:40.439
Tao, the co-founder of Berries, he was like, Kim, I have to have her on the podcast because you were like a huge inspiration to him.
00:01:40.599 --> 00:01:43.079
He read one of your books, one of his favorite books of all times.
00:01:43.239 --> 00:01:45.479
He said, What I Wish I Knew When I Was 20.
00:01:45.640 --> 00:01:47.000
He said it changed his life.
00:01:47.159 --> 00:01:50.759
So he came across you doing podcasts somewhere else, and he was like, I've got to ask her.
00:01:50.839 --> 00:01:51.719
And you agreed.
00:01:51.799 --> 00:01:54.439
So we're super excited to have you here.
00:01:54.679 --> 00:01:55.479
Thank you so much.
00:01:55.559 --> 00:01:56.839
It is really my pleasure.
00:01:57.000 --> 00:02:02.920
I am very, very passionate about this topic and am so happy to be able to share it with your audience.
00:02:03.239 --> 00:02:03.879
Oh my gosh.
00:02:04.039 --> 00:02:05.479
So, okay, let's dig in.
00:02:05.640 --> 00:02:09.879
Let's just start with what is the difference between fortune and luck?
00:02:10.199 --> 00:02:10.439
Great.
00:02:10.599 --> 00:02:15.560
And I'm so glad you started there because people don't even know what luck is, right?
00:02:15.640 --> 00:02:19.879
If I go to a room of people and I say, well, gosh, who wants to be lucky?
00:02:20.120 --> 00:02:21.800
They say, Oh, I want to be lucky.
00:02:21.879 --> 00:02:23.719
It's like, okay, well, what is luck?
00:02:24.280 --> 00:02:26.520
And no one can define it clearly.
00:02:26.599 --> 00:02:36.840
And it's very important to start with the definition of luck because the definition of luck is success or failure apparently caused by chance.
00:02:37.159 --> 00:02:47.640
It's that apparently caused by chance, it's so interesting because it looks like it's caused by chance, but it could be something that you actually had agency over.
00:02:47.879 --> 00:02:53.000
And it's quite different from fortune because fortune is the things that happen to you.
00:02:53.240 --> 00:02:56.040
That's you're either fortunate or unfortunate, right?
00:02:56.120 --> 00:03:04.439
You might be fortunate or unfortunate to be born into a particular family or in a particular place and time, or what the weather is on your birthday, right?
00:03:04.520 --> 00:03:06.280
These things are out of your control.
00:03:06.600 --> 00:03:10.040
But luck is something over which you have much more agency.
00:03:10.200 --> 00:03:19.560
And that's what I'm excited about sharing is all the tools that we each have at our disposal to unlock opportunities for good luck in our lives.
00:03:19.800 --> 00:03:29.719
Yeah, I really want to dig into it because I mean, I feel like a lot of people, especially being a therapist, seeing so many clients over the years, you always hear, I'm just unlucky.
00:03:29.800 --> 00:03:31.719
You know, it's just that's my lot in life.
00:03:31.800 --> 00:03:33.320
I'm just unlucky, that kind of thing.
00:03:33.400 --> 00:03:40.520
So I feel like people kind of get that belief about themselves in their mind, and it sort of dictates the trajectory of their life almost in a way.
00:03:40.600 --> 00:03:43.560
It's like a negative affirmation that they tell themselves over and over again.
00:03:43.800 --> 00:03:50.760
So I'd love to just talk about like, let's just dig into how do you start to shape your life to be more lucky?
00:03:50.920 --> 00:03:53.800
Like, how do you manifest that or bring that into your life?
00:03:54.120 --> 00:03:55.719
You asked about people being unlucky.
00:03:55.879 --> 00:03:56.520
Where do you start?
00:03:56.680 --> 00:03:56.840
Yeah.
00:03:57.240 --> 00:03:59.080
Super important question.
00:03:59.400 --> 00:04:07.159
Because there are so many things that you can do to set the stage for being luckier in your life.
00:04:07.400 --> 00:04:13.560
The framework I use in this new book is that opportunities for good luck are ubiquitous.
00:04:13.879 --> 00:04:17.319
They are plentiful, but they're invisible.
00:04:17.959 --> 00:04:19.000
They're like the wind.
00:04:19.399 --> 00:04:20.360
They're like the wind.
00:04:20.519 --> 00:04:24.759
They're powerful, they're ever-present, but you can't see them.
00:04:25.079 --> 00:04:26.279
They're not obvious.
00:04:26.519 --> 00:04:33.639
And so those people who are luckier know how to build a sail to catch the winds of luck.
00:04:34.120 --> 00:04:36.199
And this is really important, right?
00:04:36.360 --> 00:04:41.959
And so, because you'll see some people who just look like they've been like, wow, how come they were so lucky?
00:04:42.199 --> 00:04:50.600
What I'm trying to do is pull back the curtain so that you can see what it is that lucky people do to catch the winds of luck.
00:04:50.920 --> 00:04:53.079
Well, let's just dive into it.
00:04:53.560 --> 00:04:56.680
Everybody listening is probably like, okay, tell me the secrets then.
00:04:56.840 --> 00:04:58.600
How do I catch the winds of luck?
00:04:58.680 --> 00:05:04.040
So, what are the invisible things out there that maybe we're not thinking about consciously that are just probably all around us?
00:05:04.120 --> 00:05:08.840
And like you're saying, if we can catch the wind the right way, it can guide us to having a more lucky life.
00:05:09.160 --> 00:05:09.879
Exactly, exactly.
00:05:09.960 --> 00:05:16.920
Well, one of my colleagues used to say, and I think it's totally brilliant, used to say, There's a million dollars in every room, it's up to you to find it.
00:05:17.160 --> 00:05:24.920
So part of it is having the mindset that there is something to discover in every person you meet, in every opportunity you're in.
00:05:25.160 --> 00:05:27.079
But let's back up a minute.
00:05:27.400 --> 00:05:36.120
Because if luck is like the wind and you need a sail to catch it, there are lots of ways to engage with the winds of luck, right?
00:05:36.199 --> 00:05:37.480
There are lots of ways to do that.
00:05:37.720 --> 00:05:40.199
You could just, and many of your clients might do this.
00:05:40.360 --> 00:05:42.519
I'm just gonna stay inside and shut the shutters.
00:05:42.680 --> 00:05:44.120
I'm not even gonna pay attention.
00:05:44.199 --> 00:05:45.480
Like I'm just unlucky.
00:05:45.560 --> 00:05:46.199
Well, guess what?
00:05:46.360 --> 00:05:47.400
You're not even looking.
00:05:47.560 --> 00:05:49.720
You're not even seeing the opportunities there.
00:05:49.879 --> 00:05:52.280
So you can just stay inside and shut the shutters.
00:05:52.519 --> 00:05:59.960
You can be like a wind vane who's paying attention but not doing anything, just sort of swiveling on your axis.
00:06:00.199 --> 00:06:10.680
You can be like a hot air balloon where you're letting the winds of luck take you where they may, but you're not really owning any of the agency there.
00:06:11.079 --> 00:06:30.360
You can be like a windmill where you are catching very effectively and efficiently the winds of luck in a very local place, or you can be like a sailboat out following those winds and catching those winds and taking you to some lucky opportunities that might be over the horizon.
00:06:30.519 --> 00:06:36.519
And there are different places in our life and different times where we want to engage in different ways.
00:06:36.840 --> 00:06:39.720
You know, there might be a time where you go, you know what, I am so focused.
00:06:39.800 --> 00:06:41.240
I don't know, let's just make up something.
00:06:41.319 --> 00:06:47.639
Let's pretend I'm a brand new parent and I'm like, I'm focused right here, and I need to shut the shutters.
00:06:47.960 --> 00:06:51.800
Or maybe you're in a position where it's like, I just want to look around now.
00:06:51.879 --> 00:06:53.400
I'm not ready to make a move.
00:06:53.480 --> 00:06:57.319
Or maybe you say I need to be a leaf in the wind for a while, like a hot air balloon.
00:06:57.480 --> 00:07:02.439
I mean, I've done that in my life where we go, I just need to take a sabbatical and kind of see what's out there.
00:07:02.920 --> 00:07:11.400
There are times when you might be a windmill, you're in a job, you're in a lab, you're in school, and I'm gonna capture all the luck right here.
00:07:11.800 --> 00:07:20.519
And there are times when you say, I've got some big dreams, and I need that sailboat to take me over the horizon to where I want to go.
00:07:20.680 --> 00:07:21.240
Wow, right.
00:07:21.560 --> 00:07:27.960
So we could be in a different transition in life throughout life, and we could be one of all of these things throughout our lives, depending on what's going on with us.
00:07:28.759 --> 00:07:39.079
How open and willing we are to opportunities that are probably right in front of all of us if we take the time or we decide to direct the sailboat that way at that moment in our life, I guess, right?
00:07:39.400 --> 00:07:39.879
Exactly.
00:07:40.120 --> 00:07:43.960
But being cognizant of it is really powerful.
00:07:44.439 --> 00:07:49.639
Knowing how you're going to engage right now, given where you are in your life and what your aspirations are.
00:07:49.800 --> 00:07:53.480
In fact, the subtitle of the book is How to Turn Your Aspirations into Achievements.
00:07:53.800 --> 00:08:01.480
It's how do you know what your aspirations are and then leverage the things you have around you to get to where you want to go?
00:08:01.720 --> 00:08:02.600
That's amazing.
00:08:02.840 --> 00:08:07.079
So somebody listening, right, and they're like, okay, I want to embrace the winds.
00:08:07.160 --> 00:08:08.120
I want to change this.
00:08:08.199 --> 00:08:12.600
Maybe they've been in this trajectory their whole life where they keep missing opportunities, that sort of thing.
00:08:12.759 --> 00:08:24.120
From a neuroscience perspective, what type of shifts do we have to make mindset-wise to decide we're going to become that person that wants to direct the sailboat in the correct way to get more lucky?
00:08:24.600 --> 00:08:24.920
Great.
00:08:25.240 --> 00:08:25.720
Wonderful.
00:08:25.879 --> 00:08:28.840
Well, so first you need to do is to build that sailboat, right?
00:08:29.079 --> 00:08:31.879
First, you need the foundation, you need to build that sailboat.
00:08:32.039 --> 00:08:36.279
And to build your ship or your sailboat, you need to do a number of things.
00:08:36.439 --> 00:08:39.240
And there are five things that are outlined in the book.
00:08:39.480 --> 00:08:43.799
One is you need to know your core values.
00:08:44.039 --> 00:08:45.960
Why am I starting with core values?
00:08:46.199 --> 00:08:56.840
Because if you don't know your core values, which are like the ballast on your ship, they're like the keel that keeps you steady, you are going to capsize when you end up in situations where you get tested.
00:08:57.079 --> 00:09:10.680
All you have to do is read the newspaper to see people who've ended up in prison or people who have lost jobs or people who've lost relationships because they don't have clear core values that allow them to be manipulated or to make really bad decisions.
00:09:10.759 --> 00:09:15.720
So understanding your core values, you also need to know the story you tell about who you are.
00:09:15.799 --> 00:09:21.399
I'm sure this is something that therapists do all the time, help their clients understand what's the story you're telling.
00:09:21.560 --> 00:09:23.639
Is this story empowering or not?
00:09:23.879 --> 00:09:32.039
And this is critical because the story we tell about who we are in the world helps us shape the opportunities that we actually see for ourselves.
00:09:32.200 --> 00:09:37.480
And if we can shift that story into one that's more empowering, we end up being luckier.
00:09:37.720 --> 00:09:41.159
Third, you need to build your skills, right?
00:09:41.240 --> 00:09:43.960
Your skills are almost like the sail that you have.
00:09:44.039 --> 00:09:47.879
It's the size of your sail that determines how much wind you can capture.
00:09:47.960 --> 00:09:50.279
And so the more you know, the more skills you have.
00:09:50.440 --> 00:09:51.240
This is an important thing.
00:09:51.480 --> 00:09:53.159
You don't just will yourself to go.
00:09:53.240 --> 00:09:55.320
You need actually the skills to do it.
00:09:55.639 --> 00:09:59.480
You need to be able to be resilient.
00:10:00.039 --> 00:10:11.799
You need to be able to take risks, to understand your risk profile, and to know how to have the skill of bouncing back when you have inevitable failures and disappointments.
00:10:12.039 --> 00:10:13.240
That will happen.
00:10:13.560 --> 00:10:19.080
And so knowing your risk profile and being willing to stretch and to bounce back is critical.
00:10:19.480 --> 00:10:22.919
And fifth, you need to know where you want to go.
00:10:23.399 --> 00:10:25.480
You need to have your direction.
00:10:25.639 --> 00:10:31.799
You need to have a North Star that allows you to say, okay, this is where I'm trying to go.
00:10:31.960 --> 00:10:38.039
This is how I'm going to direct my ship, my sailboat, so I can get to my objectives.
00:10:38.440 --> 00:10:39.080
Amazing.
00:10:39.240 --> 00:10:39.879
Oh my gosh.
00:10:40.039 --> 00:10:40.360
Yeah.
00:10:40.519 --> 00:10:43.639
So I would love to touch on every single one of those stages.
00:10:43.720 --> 00:10:47.480
The one that really stood out to me is that resilience, that risk profile.
00:10:47.720 --> 00:10:51.320
How do you even identify, like, what is my level of risk profile?
00:10:51.399 --> 00:10:55.879
And then how do you decide to make take chances based on that?
00:10:56.039 --> 00:10:57.639
I'd love to know more about that.
00:10:57.720 --> 00:10:57.879
Yeah.
00:10:58.200 --> 00:10:58.759
Great, great.
00:10:58.840 --> 00:11:01.399
So I introduced the concept of a riskometer.
00:11:01.960 --> 00:11:10.120
Imagine a spider chart, a chart that looks like a spider web with five or six spokes coming out of it.
00:11:10.200 --> 00:11:12.840
And each one of those spokes is a different type of risk.
00:11:13.080 --> 00:11:16.680
Now, it's a funny thing because if you ask people, are you a risk taker?
00:11:16.840 --> 00:11:18.440
They're going to say yes or no.
00:11:18.600 --> 00:11:23.240
But that's a trick question because risk taking is not binary, right?
00:11:23.399 --> 00:11:30.919
There's social risks, emotional risks, physical risks, intellectual risks, you know, all different types of risks.
00:11:31.159 --> 00:11:33.799
And so you can map yourself on this.
00:11:33.960 --> 00:11:42.360
Like I am a very high social risk taker and a high emotional risk taker, but a really low financial risk taker and a low physical risk taker.
00:11:42.519 --> 00:11:46.680
And so you map your risk profile and you go, oh, this is interesting.
00:11:46.919 --> 00:11:52.279
If I want to go and take on some sort of physical challenge, I'm going to have to stretch, right?
00:11:52.360 --> 00:11:57.399
If I say I'm going to go run a marathon, wow, that's so kind of out of my comfort zone.
00:11:57.639 --> 00:11:59.879
Or I want to jump out of a perfectly good airplane.
00:12:00.039 --> 00:12:01.960
Wow, that's really out of my comfort zone.
00:12:02.120 --> 00:12:03.480
Am I really going to do it?
00:12:03.639 --> 00:12:06.840
And if I am, how do I prepare myself for that?
00:12:07.320 --> 00:12:21.480
And an important thing to keep in mind about this is most people who are comfortable taking risks, like physical risks or social risks or emotional risks or financial risks, any of these risks, they prepare, right?
00:12:21.639 --> 00:12:26.600
I don't get up and give a talk to a thousand people just without any preparation.
00:12:26.759 --> 00:12:30.039
I know my talk, I know my material, I've practiced.
00:12:30.279 --> 00:12:35.879
Nobody jumps out of a perfectly good airplane unless they know that their parachute is packed properly.
00:12:36.360 --> 00:12:40.600
No one invests in a company unless they've done their due diligence.
00:12:40.759 --> 00:12:50.039
And so part of the process of getting more comfortable with risk taking is understanding the preparation you need to make the risk less risky.
00:12:50.360 --> 00:12:55.159
Yes, because I think a lot of people, I mean, we're saying nobody does that, but I think a lot of people do.
00:12:55.399 --> 00:13:05.399
They just like maybe sometimes just jump into something without thinking it through all the way and then maybe prematurely fail where they could have been successful if they had just sat back and maybe planned a little bit more.
00:13:05.480 --> 00:13:08.519
It might have been a more successful risk that they might have taken in the long run.
00:13:08.680 --> 00:13:08.840
Yeah.
00:13:09.159 --> 00:13:09.799
You're absolutely right.
00:13:09.960 --> 00:13:11.159
You're actually absolutely right.
00:13:11.320 --> 00:13:11.480
Right.
00:13:11.560 --> 00:13:14.360
There are people who jump into things without thinking about it.
00:13:14.519 --> 00:13:22.840
But people who are professionals, like a professional venture capitalist, a professional investor is someone who's going to say, hey, I'm going to do my due diligence.
00:13:23.080 --> 00:13:26.680
A professional speaker is going to make sure that they're prepared.
00:13:27.000 --> 00:13:34.200
The way that you become good at taking more risks is to not only practice, but to also be extremely well prepared.
00:13:34.360 --> 00:13:34.519
Right?
00:13:34.680 --> 00:13:38.279
If I'm going to have a difficult conversation with you, I'm going to be prepared.
00:13:38.360 --> 00:13:40.680
I'm going to think about what might be your point of view.
00:13:40.840 --> 00:13:44.039
How can I do this in a way so you're going to be able to hear me?
00:13:44.200 --> 00:13:49.480
How do I get my emotional state in the right place so that I don't come off as being aggressive?
00:13:49.799 --> 00:13:59.720
In every aspect of our risk taking, we can be prepared, both with skills and our mindset and preparation to make the risk less risky.
00:14:00.039 --> 00:14:00.600
I love that.
00:14:00.680 --> 00:14:04.120
And then that leads into something else you talked about, the skills.
00:14:04.360 --> 00:14:09.720
So I would imagine, is it a different skill set for every like rung on the risk wheel?
00:14:09.799 --> 00:14:10.759
Or how does it work?
00:14:11.000 --> 00:14:11.399
Absolutely.
00:14:11.560 --> 00:14:11.879
Absolutely.
00:14:14.919 --> 00:14:17.159
So am I willing to take on big problems?
00:14:17.399 --> 00:14:24.120
So someone who's a PhD student would say, like, I'm going to go out into the frontier and I'm going to try to solve problems no one solved before.
00:14:24.200 --> 00:14:25.000
That's a real risk.
00:14:25.159 --> 00:14:26.600
How do you get comfortable doing that?
00:14:26.759 --> 00:14:32.039
You start taking tiny risks, intellectual risks, until finally you go, okay, I'm comfortable with this.
00:14:32.120 --> 00:14:34.120
I'm going to tackle an even bigger problem.
00:14:34.519 --> 00:14:36.519
You know, you started with values, the first step.
00:14:36.600 --> 00:14:37.720
I could see how that plays in.
00:14:37.799 --> 00:14:48.440
If your values are, I need to change the world, and then you go on to become a PhD and you want to do research that's nobody's done before, I could see the trajectory of that once you identify all of those stages.
00:14:48.600 --> 00:14:50.519
And it can help you be more successful over time.
00:14:50.759 --> 00:14:50.840
Yes.
00:14:51.000 --> 00:14:52.440
And exactly like luck.
00:14:53.000 --> 00:14:53.399
Exactly.
00:14:53.639 --> 00:14:59.399
So the thing is, once you've built your ship, the next stage is you need to recruit your crew.
00:14:59.799 --> 00:15:03.080
Most people find luck that comes through other people.
00:15:03.240 --> 00:15:04.759
You're not going to be sailing solo.
00:15:05.080 --> 00:15:08.440
In fact, I say luck seldom sails solo.
00:15:09.080 --> 00:15:10.919
You need other people on your team.
00:15:11.080 --> 00:15:18.360
And so you have to think about what are the things you can do to get other people on your team, on your crew to help you on this journey.
00:15:18.519 --> 00:15:29.320
And those are things like asking for what you want, knowing how to ask in a way that it's likely that people are going to say yes, helping other people, showing appreciation.
00:15:29.480 --> 00:15:34.360
These things seem obvious, but many people don't do them.
00:15:34.600 --> 00:15:37.560
For example, I am the thank you note queen.
00:15:37.960 --> 00:15:43.159
I have a practice that every day at the end of the day before I go to bed, I write thank you notes.
00:15:43.240 --> 00:15:43.879
They're emails.
00:15:44.120 --> 00:15:51.480
I'm not sitting writing letters and envelopes with stamps, but I send emails to everyone that day who has done something that has been meaningful to me.
00:15:51.799 --> 00:15:54.120
It doesn't take that long.
00:15:54.680 --> 00:16:01.320
And not only do I feel much more grateful for the things people did, I have demonstrated that appreciation.
00:16:01.399 --> 00:16:10.279
And I can promise you it comes back in waves and waves of goodwill when people see that you have shown appreciation for things they've done for you.
00:16:10.600 --> 00:16:11.320
Oh my goodness.
00:16:11.399 --> 00:16:11.639
Yeah.
00:16:11.799 --> 00:16:21.879
So building your team, but also showing appreciation, support, and gratitude for your team to keep it strong and support it, I guess, your crew on the ship that's going to guide you through being lucky.
00:16:22.039 --> 00:16:22.519
Oh my gosh.
00:16:22.680 --> 00:16:22.840
Yeah.
00:16:22.919 --> 00:16:23.000
Right.
00:16:23.240 --> 00:16:23.560
That's amazing.
00:16:23.879 --> 00:16:26.919
And then the third thing is you want to hoist the sail, right?
00:16:27.080 --> 00:16:27.240
Okay.
00:16:27.399 --> 00:16:32.519
This is the things you do every single day to tempt good luck your way.
00:16:32.680 --> 00:16:35.159
And it might be asking a lot of questions.
00:16:35.320 --> 00:16:37.960
It might be meeting someone new.
00:16:38.200 --> 00:16:40.680
It might be honing your resilience.
00:16:40.759 --> 00:16:45.799
There are things that you can do every single day that tempt good luck your way.
00:16:45.960 --> 00:16:51.639
Keep in mind, Kim, we are always one decision away from a completely different life, right?
00:16:51.960 --> 00:17:06.599
So if I'm standing in line at the grocery store and I start talking to the person standing next to me, or I could put in my earbuds and listen to my podcast or my music and I don't say hello, I might have a very different life, right?
00:17:06.759 --> 00:17:10.440
If I say hello to that person, we might find we have something in common.
00:17:10.680 --> 00:17:14.599
They might become my new best friend, they might invest in my company.
00:17:14.839 --> 00:17:16.759
There are so many things that could happen.
00:17:16.919 --> 00:17:29.480
I have so many experiences in my life where I have met people who became very important in my life because they were sitting next to me on an airplane or standing in line in a coffee shop.
00:17:29.799 --> 00:17:37.880
And if you don't take the time to say hello and just engage, you never know what's going to happen when you make that connection.
00:17:38.200 --> 00:17:38.680
Love that.
00:17:38.839 --> 00:17:39.319
I love that.
00:17:39.480 --> 00:17:40.920
So that's one of those skill sets.
00:17:41.000 --> 00:17:45.000
Just opening yourself up to opportunities and possibilities, definitely.
00:17:45.240 --> 00:17:49.240
People sitting right around you could be your next big lucky break.
00:17:49.720 --> 00:17:50.359
Exactly.
00:17:50.599 --> 00:17:51.720
Yeah, that's amazing.
00:17:51.880 --> 00:17:54.039
Okay, so and then what comes after that?
00:17:54.120 --> 00:17:56.599
Like hoist your sail and and then that's it.
00:17:56.680 --> 00:18:00.759
So you need to build your ship, you need to recruit your crew, and you need to hoist your sail.
00:18:00.839 --> 00:18:04.759
Those are the three pieces of catching the winds of luck.
00:18:05.079 --> 00:18:05.799
Amazing.
00:18:06.039 --> 00:18:11.000
So once you've got it all assembled, the other part you talked about is like, where do you want to go?
00:18:11.160 --> 00:18:16.519
So at what point in this strategy or this process are you saying, like, where do I actually want to go with this?
00:18:16.680 --> 00:18:27.400
Or is it just like a vague, like, I want my life to look like this, or do you recommend like having a set goal based on your values and then following this path that you're laying out in your book?
00:18:27.799 --> 00:18:28.680
So it's interesting.
00:18:28.839 --> 00:18:34.920
Having taught creative problem solving for many years, one of the frameworks we use is about flaring and focusing, right?
00:18:35.079 --> 00:18:39.720
And there are times in which you're going to flare and sort of open your aperture and see different opportunities.
00:18:39.880 --> 00:18:43.480
There are times in which you're going to focus and be very, very deliberate.
00:18:43.799 --> 00:18:47.000
This happens not just over the course of like weeks or months.
00:18:47.079 --> 00:18:48.920
It can happen even in the same day.
00:18:49.319 --> 00:18:51.240
I could say, right now I'm flaring.
00:18:51.319 --> 00:18:55.480
I'm going to go out for lunch and I'm going to say hello to everybody I meet along the way.
00:18:55.640 --> 00:18:58.920
Or I'm going to take courses, a course on something I know nothing about.
00:18:59.000 --> 00:19:02.200
And then there are places you're going to focus, like, okay, I'm writing a book.
00:19:02.279 --> 00:19:11.480
I'm going to be spend the next two hours writing, or I'm having dinner with my partner, and I'm going to really focus on making this relationship as strong as possible.
00:19:11.640 --> 00:19:15.640
So the combination of understanding where you're flaring and when you're focusing.
00:19:15.720 --> 00:19:19.559
And so your goals can be very different even within a day.
00:19:19.880 --> 00:19:21.319
But you're absolutely right.
00:19:21.480 --> 00:19:29.079
Knowing where you want to go, the more specific you are, the more likely you're going to be able to find the resources that are going to help you get there.
00:19:29.319 --> 00:19:37.240
And so knowing where you want to go allows you to collect the resources that are going to help you get you on your journey.
00:19:37.559 --> 00:19:37.960
Yeah.
00:19:38.120 --> 00:19:39.000
Oh my gosh.
00:19:39.079 --> 00:19:39.400
Yeah.
00:19:39.480 --> 00:19:41.559
That's such helpful advice.
00:19:41.880 --> 00:19:42.200
Okay.
00:19:42.519 --> 00:19:55.559
So in all of this, you describe so many actions that increase luck, such as taking risks, building on tiny wins, bouncing back from failure, embracing imposter syndrome.
00:19:55.799 --> 00:19:58.759
Why do these actions lead to more luck?
00:19:59.079 --> 00:20:00.839
Yeah, there's so many ways.
00:20:01.000 --> 00:20:04.279
So let's, I don't know, let it pick which one you want to dive into.
00:20:04.519 --> 00:20:05.799
How about imposter syndrome?
00:20:05.880 --> 00:20:08.519
Because I feel like that comes up a lot for therapists.
00:20:08.680 --> 00:20:12.120
They get in the room and they quickly realize I know nothing.
00:20:12.359 --> 00:20:19.079
You know, I went to school, I learned all this stuff, but I actually know nothing because, you know, you're presented with a different client every day and different problems and issues.
00:20:19.240 --> 00:20:20.519
So why don't we talk about that?
00:20:20.680 --> 00:20:21.640
Imposter syndrome.
00:20:21.960 --> 00:20:27.240
Yeah, I like to reframe imposter syndrome as improvement syndrome.
00:20:27.400 --> 00:20:32.440
You know, nobody is good at everything when they just start.
00:20:32.759 --> 00:20:41.640
And if we realize that we're always improving and when we put ourselves in situations where we feel like an imposter, and honestly, I'm an old person.
00:20:41.799 --> 00:20:48.599
I still feel that way every day when I put myself in situations like, wow, I don't really know what to do right here, right now.
00:20:48.839 --> 00:20:50.120
But you experiment.
00:20:50.359 --> 00:20:57.960
One of the things that I've learned from my wonderful colleague, Alberto Savoia, is the idea of doing what he calls pretotypes.
00:20:58.200 --> 00:20:59.720
Now, what's a pretotype?
00:20:59.880 --> 00:21:03.960
Now, this is, I think, important also for therapists to help their clients understand.
00:21:04.200 --> 00:21:11.240
A prototype tests if something will work, but a pretotype tests if you're doing the right thing, if you're even working on the right thing.
00:21:11.400 --> 00:21:17.960
So you can do tiny experiments in your life, tiny, so that the failure is tiny.
00:21:18.120 --> 00:21:24.359
You know, you don't want to invest a huge amount of time and effort into something that has a high risk.
00:21:24.599 --> 00:21:28.120
You want to put a tiny investment in to test the waters.
00:21:28.279 --> 00:21:30.519
I mean, this is, you know, why we date people.
00:21:30.680 --> 00:21:35.319
We don't just go and meet someone and go marry them the first day and go, oh great, let's go get married.
00:21:35.480 --> 00:21:38.599
You go on dates, you get lots of data, right?
00:21:38.839 --> 00:21:47.480
Every time you meet someone new, every interaction is more data that you're gathering, and you end up being able to do little experiments.
00:21:47.720 --> 00:22:02.440
And so understanding that we're always improving and stretching and acknowledging that to yourself is a way to realize that, yes, everybody, in fact, most people feel like an impostor most of the time because guess what?
00:22:02.839 --> 00:22:05.240
Nobody gave me a script for the day.
00:22:05.400 --> 00:22:07.000
Did they get, did you get a script for the day?
00:22:07.160 --> 00:22:07.559
No, I did that.
00:22:07.799 --> 00:22:08.359
I don't think so.
00:22:08.680 --> 00:22:09.000
Exactly.
00:22:09.079 --> 00:22:17.880
And so we're going to be presented with lots of different things that throw us off and are like, wow, I'm not, I that's a new thing.
00:22:18.039 --> 00:22:19.720
How can I learn and grow from this?
00:22:19.880 --> 00:22:26.680
And I think understanding that this is a normal part of just life, nobody walked the first time they tried.
00:22:27.400 --> 00:22:30.039
Nobody rode a bicycle the first time they tried.
00:22:30.359 --> 00:22:37.000
Why do we expect adults who are doing really complicated things to do it perfectly the first time they tried?
00:22:37.240 --> 00:22:43.240
And so giving yourself the grace to understand that we're constantly growing is really, really powerful.
00:22:43.559 --> 00:22:44.120
I love that.
00:22:44.200 --> 00:22:44.440
Yeah.
00:22:44.519 --> 00:22:46.039
I mean, I think we forget, right?
00:22:46.279 --> 00:22:50.839
We just forget over time and think we should have it all together all the time, especially therapists, you know.
00:22:51.000 --> 00:22:53.720
We're supposed to be helping other people in their lives.
00:22:53.799 --> 00:22:59.160
And then if we can't figure it out, it just feels like it's really difficult for a lot of therapists to deal with that.
00:22:59.400 --> 00:23:00.039
Comes up a lot.
00:23:00.200 --> 00:23:00.920
So I love that.
00:23:01.079 --> 00:23:06.039
Little teeny pieces of things that break down the imposter syndrome over time, I guess.
00:23:06.200 --> 00:23:11.160
So the more you do these little teeny risks, the better the imposter syndrome will get, I'm guessing.
00:23:11.400 --> 00:23:15.799
Then you'll be able to take more chances and risk, and then your luck will increase over time.
00:23:16.039 --> 00:23:23.559
And I'm assuming with a therapist, I mean, I'm certainly not an expert on this at all, but if you actually acknowledge your client, hey, guess what?
00:23:23.720 --> 00:23:26.359
Wow, this is a really tough problem to solve.
00:23:26.599 --> 00:23:28.759
Let's see if we can solve it together.
00:23:28.920 --> 00:23:30.759
Let's look at it from different angles.
00:23:30.920 --> 00:23:33.160
Let's explore different ways we can think about it.
00:23:33.319 --> 00:23:38.120
That you feel like you're on a team with them as opposed to feeling like you have to have all the answers.
00:23:39.000 --> 00:23:39.960
Yeah, absolutely.
00:23:40.039 --> 00:23:40.599
I love that.
00:23:40.680 --> 00:23:42.120
And that helps break it down, right?
00:23:42.200 --> 00:23:46.279
If you don't have to act like you have it all together, it takes the pressure off, I think.
00:23:46.680 --> 00:23:47.240
Exactly.
00:23:47.480 --> 00:23:48.680
Yeah, it definitely does.
00:23:48.839 --> 00:23:50.599
Oh my goodness, this is so helpful.
00:23:50.759 --> 00:23:53.240
Because people ask me all the time, they're like, Kim, you're so lucky.
00:23:53.319 --> 00:23:58.200
Like you've got a lot of stuff going on, like you're working with berries and you've got income streams and all this stuff.
00:23:58.279 --> 00:24:00.120
And people will say that to me all the time.
00:24:00.279 --> 00:24:02.279
And I always say, like, it's not luck.
00:24:02.359 --> 00:24:04.759
I feel like I've just really worked hard to get there.
00:24:04.920 --> 00:24:15.400
But hearing you like put words to it, the trajectory that you're talking about actually was a lucky path that I've taken to get where I am today by putting all these little pieces together.
00:24:15.559 --> 00:24:20.680
But I never really had a framework for it to be able to say, this is actually what I did to get where I am right now.
00:24:20.920 --> 00:24:22.680
Well, so let's let's talk about that for a second.
00:24:22.839 --> 00:24:23.160
Yeah, sure.
00:24:23.400 --> 00:24:27.480
Because one of the things I have my students do is a fortune and luck resume.
00:24:27.720 --> 00:24:35.640
So imagine take a piece of paper and you write fortune on one side and luck on the other, because we're in a constant dance between fortune and luck in our lives, right?
00:24:35.720 --> 00:24:37.799
The things that happen to us and how we respond.
00:24:38.039 --> 00:24:40.519
You can ask me a question, I don't know what you're gonna ask me.
00:24:40.759 --> 00:24:42.599
I then have to decide how I respond.
00:24:42.759 --> 00:24:44.920
And then you recide, and then the things come back to me.
00:24:45.000 --> 00:24:46.440
And so we're in this dance.
00:24:46.599 --> 00:24:53.400
And if we can start unpacking what are the things that happened to us and then how we responded.
00:24:53.720 --> 00:24:56.839
So, for example, you have a job working for berries.
00:24:56.920 --> 00:24:57.640
How exciting.
00:24:57.799 --> 00:24:58.839
Well, what did you have to do?
00:24:58.920 --> 00:25:01.799
Like nobody just called you up out of the blue and said, You want this?
00:25:02.039 --> 00:25:07.400
You had to have set the table, you had set the stage for that opportunity to happen.
00:25:07.559 --> 00:25:12.200
So someone might see, you might be fortunate to see a job.
00:25:12.359 --> 00:25:15.000
You might be fortunate that a job was posted, right?
00:25:15.079 --> 00:25:15.240
Right.
00:25:15.400 --> 00:25:16.039
It was posted.
00:25:16.200 --> 00:25:18.279
But I'm lucky because I looked it up.
00:25:18.680 --> 00:25:21.960
But then I'm fortunate that it matches my skills.
00:25:22.200 --> 00:25:26.519
But I'm lucky because I wrote a cover letter and a resume and I sent it in.
00:25:26.759 --> 00:25:29.640
Well, then I'm fortunate that I got asked for an interview, right?
00:25:29.720 --> 00:25:30.680
That was out of my control.
00:25:31.079 --> 00:25:35.400
I'm lucky because I prepared for that interview and I walked in.
00:25:35.720 --> 00:25:38.440
I'm fortunate that I was one of the strongest candidates.
00:25:38.839 --> 00:25:41.559
There are things that I didn't control, but they're the things I do.
00:25:41.960 --> 00:25:52.359
And claiming the agency over the things that you do control and parsing what things that happened to you versus what happened, what you did is a very powerful exercise.
00:25:52.680 --> 00:25:53.559
That's amazing.
00:25:53.640 --> 00:25:54.039
Yeah.
00:25:54.200 --> 00:25:58.839
And then being able to see it written out like that, I guess you can ascertain a lot of insights from that.
00:25:59.000 --> 00:26:09.240
Also, like the choices, decisions you made, and implement that in your life in the future if you want to continue to have the good luck or the good fortune, depending on where you are with it.
00:26:09.400 --> 00:26:10.120
Absolutely.
00:26:10.359 --> 00:26:11.319
That's so interesting.
00:26:11.480 --> 00:26:12.440
I love this framework.
00:26:12.599 --> 00:26:14.920
So, where do people find you?
00:26:15.079 --> 00:26:16.120
Where do they learn about you?
00:26:16.200 --> 00:26:17.240
Where do they get your book?
00:26:17.400 --> 00:26:18.440
I want to just tell everybody.
00:26:18.680 --> 00:26:20.200
Well, I'm pretty easy to find.
00:26:20.440 --> 00:26:25.720
You can look at my own website, which is just tinacelig.com or tinacauthor.com.
00:26:25.960 --> 00:26:28.440
I'm happy to connect with people on LinkedIn.
00:26:28.680 --> 00:26:30.120
I'm easy to find there.
00:26:30.279 --> 00:26:34.599
And my book, What I Wish I Knew About Luck, is available wherever books are sold.
00:26:34.759 --> 00:26:41.240
And I also was fortunate I got, I'm fortunate, I was lucky actually, that I got to read the audiobook myself.
00:26:41.480 --> 00:26:43.480
Initially, my publisher didn't want me to do it.
00:26:43.559 --> 00:26:46.279
They typically don't have authors do it.
00:26:46.440 --> 00:26:47.559
And I said, you know what?
00:26:47.640 --> 00:26:48.359
I really want to.
00:26:48.440 --> 00:26:53.079
So I said I'm gonna record a little audition, and they said, Great, you did a good job.
00:26:53.400 --> 00:26:56.120
So if you want to hear more of me, I actually read the book.
00:26:56.359 --> 00:26:58.359
Oh, that is amazing! Congratulations.
00:26:59.000 --> 00:26:59.400
Thank you so much.
00:26:59.799 --> 00:27:00.279
Just so amazing.
00:27:00.519 --> 00:27:03.079
Well, it was it's hard to do, but it's really worth it.
00:27:03.319 --> 00:27:03.799
I bet.
00:27:03.960 --> 00:27:05.000
I think I would stumble.
00:27:05.079 --> 00:27:07.720
It'd be a lot of cuts for me, you know.
00:27:08.120 --> 00:27:10.039
And this is your 18th book, right?
00:27:10.279 --> 00:27:11.559
I have written a lot of books.
00:27:11.720 --> 00:27:13.720
I started writing buddy books when I was three.
00:27:13.799 --> 00:27:14.359
How about that?
00:27:14.759 --> 00:27:17.240
How amazing! I love it.
00:27:17.640 --> 00:27:18.519
That's amazing.
00:27:18.680 --> 00:27:20.920
Well, thank you so much for taking the time today.
00:27:21.000 --> 00:27:22.120
This is super helpful.
00:27:22.279 --> 00:27:24.519
I can't wait to get your book and read it myself.
00:27:24.680 --> 00:27:27.319
So thank you for sharing the framework.
00:27:27.480 --> 00:27:29.960
And anybody listening, please go check it out too.
00:27:30.039 --> 00:27:30.519
I'm excited.
00:27:30.680 --> 00:27:31.880
If you are a listener, reach out.
00:27:31.960 --> 00:27:33.079
I want to hear what you think about it.
00:27:33.240 --> 00:27:34.120
Let's talk about it.
00:27:34.359 --> 00:27:40.440
Tina, thank you so much for coming today and sharing your framework, your wealth of knowledge about this topic.
00:27:40.519 --> 00:27:41.400
I think it's amazing.
00:27:41.640 --> 00:27:42.359
Thank you so much.
00:27:42.440 --> 00:27:44.120
I really appreciate the opportunity.
00:27:44.359 --> 00:27:44.920
Thank you.
