Michael Sanders: Hi everyone and welcome to Between Here and There. I'm your host Michael and with me as always is my fearless co-host Brian. So hey Brian, what what are we chatting about today?
Brian Di Bartolomeo: Hello, Michael. So good to see you
Michael Sanders: Hello.
Brian Di Bartolomeo: again. Yes. Well, today we kind of did a little look back from our two pivot conversations, both your life pivot and my life pivot. And as we just had that little debrief, we started to see some themes that were emergent and some that weren't. And we both agreed it was a good topic to bring forward.
Michael Sanders: Yeah, it's really interesting because like when we went back and started digging through like roughly the transcript scripts of my story and your own, we did start to see some common threads. And I'm really interested in like the common threads that you and I have in our life pivot stories. I'm really curious to see if listeners and viewers who are going through a pivot kind of have the same kind of underlying common threads too. Yeah,
Brian Di Bartolomeo: Yeah, how does it resonate with them? Mm-hmm.
Michael Sanders: exactly. So Looking back at kind of what we had identified at least one of the things was kind of like, you know, we're kind of calling it disillusionment with traditional success, in that both you and I had, you know, relatively successful careers. We have some of the the creature comforts that a little bit of success might bring you, you know, house, a car, whatever you want to call it. But the outward markers of success really no longer provided internal fulfillment. I guess w what what does that what d what does that trigger in your recollection of your your own pivot story?
Brian Di Bartolomeo: Yeah, it's interesting. As I was further reflecting on our conversations, the the thing that I summarize this with was drag versus enjoyment. And
Michael Sanders: Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm.
Brian Di Bartolomeo: to me, that meant like once you're going through something that you thought you always wanted to go through, all of a sudden sometimes you have a realization that it's it's not actually what you wanted. You know, a
Michael Sanders: Mm.
Brian Di Bartolomeo: fantasy. I think we even said this during the episode where I brought it up. A fantasy is never the same. We always make it
Michael Sanders: Yeah.
Brian Di Bartolomeo: better in our mind. And then when we act on
Michael Sanders: Yeah.
Brian Di Bartolomeo: it, it's like that wasn't it.
Michael Sanders: Yeah.
Brian Di Bartolomeo: And we're we're dragging. A lot of people are dragging. I I'll speak specifically for myself. I dragged myself through many years, not listening to myself, which is gonna be another theme here, but dragging myself through because I thought that's what I
Michael Sanders: Mm-hmm.
Brian Di Bartolomeo: absolutely had to do.
Michael Sanders: Yeah. Or like I I think this is something a lot of people identify, that feeling of like dragging yourself to work specifically. Like, you know, you're you're going into the office or wherever your workplace is, you know, some days you feel like, it's, you know, it's worth it because I'm making progress towards these, you know, material dreams of mine. But you still kind of feel like you're dragging yourself there. And really in this kind of disillusionment and like traditional success phase, I think this is also where a lot of people would experience like a professional burnout of some sort, right?
Brian Di Bartolomeo: Mm. Yeah.
Michael Sanders: You know, and that kind of goes along with your quote unquote drag-along feeling in terms of a common th theme in our stories. And then really the next commonality that appeared in at least my story and your story, and curious to see if this appears in other people's like pivot stories. I kind of suspect it will. is you just really have these like significant life events that are often you know they feel kind of existential in nature. So health and illness issues of f either for yourself or a loved one, you know, in my case I got robbed and I got shot, you know, so like a near death experience is, you know, definitely a a catalyst. and Brian, I guess what looking back on your life story, I guess what are the the big life events that you kind of, you know, were important in your pivot.
Brian Di Bartolomeo: Yeah, my I identified just significant loss in such a short period of time. You know, I
Michael Sanders: Mm-hmm.
Brian Di Bartolomeo: I moved out of Chicago where I'd lived for twenty years. I lost my friends that I had made over that duration of time. Still have them,
Michael Sanders: Mm-hmm.
Brian Di Bartolomeo: but proximity change and that changes the relationship
Michael Sanders: Mm-hmm.
Brian Di Bartolomeo: and connection you have. lost my dog, lost my mom, friend diagnosed with stage four breast cancer. moved to a
Michael Sanders: Mm-hmm.
Brian Di Bartolomeo: new town. So all of that was new. And then finally, you know, it it went on from there for loss of marriage and career. So it kind of for
Michael Sanders: Yeah.
Brian Di Bartolomeo: me was the full gamut there. Luckily I had my health, but a significant amount of loss.
Michael Sanders: Yeah. Yeah. You Yeah.
Brian Di Bartolomeo: was a high amount all at the same time and and back to kind of the dragging. I continued
Michael Sanders: Mm-hmm.
Brian Di Bartolomeo: to erode who I was, my authentic self, through that, trying
Michael Sanders: Mm-hmm.
Brian Di Bartolomeo: to just keep pushing forward, pushing forward, pushing forward, getting through it. And that was not the healthiest thing to do.
Michael Sanders: Yeah, I know certainly in my own case, you know, the the near death experience of getting shot, like in some ways it made me impatient in a good way,
Brian Di Bartolomeo: Yeah, yeah.
Michael Sanders: right? Because I I or intolerant in a or more intolerant in a good way, 'cause you know, certainly it was eye opening from a professional and kind of materialistic viewpoint, you know, like are are
Brian Di Bartolomeo: Mm-hmm.
Michael Sanders: these physical goods that I'm able to provide for myself worth maybe doing things professionally that you no longer feel fulfilling. And obviously a
Brian Di Bartolomeo: Right. Yeah.
Michael Sanders: bullet is a good teacher to teach you no, at least in my c case, right? Yeah,
Brian Di Bartolomeo: Very quick teacher, right? Mm-hmm.
Michael Sanders: very, very speedy.
Brian Di Bartolomeo: Yes.
Michael Sanders: and then another thing that at least you and I had in common, and I don't know if this is gonna resonate with all of our listeners or just some of them. But I think you and I both kind of found solace to some degree, like no matter where you are, no matter where you live, no matter what your relationship is like, you know, kind of yoga and stillness and meditation and kind of that inward looking exercise was really grounding
Brian Di Bartolomeo: Mm-hmm.
Michael Sanders: and rooting, at least for us. You know, I've always described my appreciation for yoga. As it is the closest I've come to as a handbook for living life, right?
Brian Di Bartolomeo: Mm.
Michael Sanders: you know, beyond the physical practice, the downward dogs, all
Brian Di Bartolomeo: Right.
Michael Sanders: that kind of stuff. you know, being able to cultivate some discipline, to tune things out, to go inward. I guess what kind of how how did that stuff kind of end up being a a common thread
Brian Di Bartolomeo: Yeah.
Michael Sanders: for you as well?
Brian Di Bartolomeo: I mean, similar common thread. I I think the way I relate it to our audience is finding something to root or settle in that becomes a tool
Michael Sanders: Mm-hmm.
Brian Di Bartolomeo: for your pivot. But for us specifically,
Michael Sanders: Mm-hmm.
Brian Di Bartolomeo: it was yoga. And to your point, it was more for me about the philosophy, methodology, the approach. And it was an exact overlay of my psychology background and the way in which I was living.
Michael Sanders: Mm-hmm.
Brian Di Bartolomeo: And it turned out it was yoga. So that was pretty special for me to say, wow, this is my blueprint, similar as you said. But I I would imagine that other listeners are going to have something like that that they root into whether that's church,
Michael Sanders: Mm-hmm.
Brian Di Bartolomeo: some sort of community connection, maybe some sort of belief. It can be anything.
Michael Sanders: Mm-hmm.
Brian Di Bartolomeo: That allows you to kind of settle in and find that stillness within self.
Michael Sanders: And then the fourth thing we've identified that was at least a common thread between my story and your own is we both had these moments where. We were, you know, shifting from having more to having less or at a minimum appreciating having less. And I know certainly from my own life pivot story, kind of one of the aha moments I had or epiphanies I had is, you know, I'm sitting at my house, you know, nice yard, nice house, nice pool, nice car, whatever. And I'm basically like, this is kind of ridiculous, because what do I do? From here, like I get a second pool. What am I gonna do with two pools? You know,
Brian Di Bartolomeo: Right. Yeah.
Michael Sanders: what am I gonna do with two houses? I can only live in one of them at a time. What am what am I gonna do with two cars? I work from home, I don't even really need one car. I
Brian Di Bartolomeo: Right.
Michael Sanders: don't need to get a second dog, you know. So that that kind of epiphany that especially the things that were bringing me kind of contentment at that time was basically just practicing yoga and reading books. You know, I'm like I I can get books for free at the library. and
Brian Di Bartolomeo: Yeah, yeah.
Michael Sanders: I I can practice yoga at home for free as well. So why am I pushing this hard to get, you know, more and more of what I already have?
Brian Di Bartolomeo: Right. Yeah, I I for me and I think for you as well, that it this connects quite well back with the disillusionment of success. And
Michael Sanders: Mm-hmm.
Brian Di Bartolomeo: that had already been happening of like, well, how much do I need? And my drive was really retirement. That was really what I was focusing
Michael Sanders: Mm-hmm.
Brian Di Bartolomeo: on, like, I need to be done working so that
Michael Sanders: Yeah.
Brian Di Bartolomeo: I can live the life I want to live and not have the stress I think I need to have in order to get to that point. And I think once I got my arms around, okay, this is really not joyful for me anymore because it's
Michael Sanders: Mm-hmm.
Brian Di Bartolomeo: I'm losing my authentic self, immediately the overlap came. Well, then I would definitely have to do with less. And that and I was okay with that. And
Michael Sanders: Yeah.
Brian Di Bartolomeo: my aha was this moment where I my husband and time and I acquired short-term rental houses and we had a house in Florida that we wintered in and we had houses here in Michigan and every house was full to capacity and each
Michael Sanders: Mm.
Brian Di Bartolomeo: house that had a garage was full to capacity and sheds were full to capacity. And I I was talking to a friend at the company that I had left and I was sharing with I was like, you know what's interesting? I don't have kids. I don't have anyone close. And when I die, my nieces and nephews might unfortunately begrudgingly be like, we got to clean all these houses out. Number
Michael Sanders: Yeah.
Brian Di Bartolomeo: one. Number two is they're not going to know what any of the things are or have any importance
Michael Sanders: Yeah.
Brian Di Bartolomeo: to them. And number three is maybe they take a box, a carload, but maybe a box of things or maybe like something
Michael Sanders: Yeah.
Brian Di Bartolomeo: for a memento. All this other stuff means nothing to them.
Michael Sanders: Yeah. Yeah.
Brian Di Bartolomeo: And that drive to have to keep acquiring more immediately was like gone, dissipated. And then it and then it became
Michael Sanders: Yeah. Yeah. You know, one it
Brian Di Bartolomeo: for me, that was a thing. Now it was like, what do I what do I minimally need? It can still be nice, but
Michael Sanders: Yeah.
Brian Di Bartolomeo: what do I minimally need and approach that as my goal of success now?
Michael Sanders: Yeah, we're you know, we're certainly not talking about such an extreme where you literally sell everything you own and live as as in a tent in the woods somewhere. Although if you want to do that, go ahead. You know, but
Brian Di Bartolomeo: Real meager. Mm-hmm. If you yeah, yeah. Mm-hmm.
Michael Sanders: it's you know kind of taking stock of what you really need and what you really don't need and what ultimately makes you happy. and
Brian Di Bartolomeo: Right. Yeah.
Michael Sanders: Brian, I've heard you talk about retirement. Like this, and I've heard
Brian Di Bartolomeo: Mm.
Michael Sanders: other people speak of it this way, as that, you know, you're you're on the rat wheel, you're doing the race so that you can retire. And really, what a lot of people I think mean when they talk about retirement, they're talking about living the kind of life that they truly want to live. Right. So then my
Brian Di Bartolomeo: Yeah. Yeah.
Michael Sanders: another aha moment is, you know, I could have done the same thing there, but I'm like, I'm done deferring my life to.
Brian Di Bartolomeo: Yes.
Michael Sanders: some future date, right? I'm done deferring living how I want to some point in the future.
Brian Di Bartolomeo: Beautifully put. Mm-hmm.
Michael Sanders: and even if I can't realize the whole grand vision immediately right now, I can get a lot closer to it than I am right now
Brian Di Bartolomeo: Yeah.
Michael Sanders: by stepping off this rat wheel. And you know, you still have to put food on the table and pay your rent and all that stuff. but if you if you've catch yourself viewing retirement as really more akin to simply the way you want to live. your authentic self.
Brian Di Bartolomeo: Mm-hmm.
Michael Sanders: I'd encourage folks to think about that a little bit and kind of dig into why they might doing that, might be doing that And then yeah. Yeah.
Brian Di Bartolomeo: I I think it's very true. Very, very true. I know a lot of people that are in that moment that are in between right now and they're
Michael Sanders: Mm-hmm.
Brian Di Bartolomeo: pushing to drive to the point of nearly hindering their own health. And they
Michael Sanders: Yeah.
Brian Di Bartolomeo: potentially are. And it's very difficult to see, but they're trying
Michael Sanders: Yeah.
Brian Di Bartolomeo: to do it for this bigger good that is not even a guarantee, as we know.
Michael Sanders: Right. Totally. I mean, how many stories have we heard where someone passes away six weeks after they retire? Right.
Brian Di Bartolomeo: Yeah.
Michael Sanders: I did not I did not want to be that guy.
Brian Di Bartolomeo: Yeah, not at all.
Michael Sanders: and I think the fifth thing that we identified as a common thread was really just kind of this interdirected wisdom and authenticity. And what we mean by that is, you know, we're trying to create a space here between here and there. That helps people navigate their own life pivots. but we also don't have the illusion that we're gonna be able to, you know, spoon feed answers to people as to what their life choices should be. Ultimately, all those answers to one's own life pivot exist within themselves. and I think that's something that we both identified in our own stories. You know, for me it was kind of meditation and reflection and I could just kind of feel when things were off and not headed in the right direction.
Brian Di Bartolomeo: Right.
Michael Sanders: I guess what experiences did you have in your pivot story that, you know, ultimately you realize these answers were already within yourself?
Brian Di Bartolomeo: Yeah, I I think expounding on what you said, we both had, as you termed it, the thrashing, which is our new to heart term because it is so descriptive. And I think everyone can understand that these thrashing durations,
Michael Sanders: Mm-hmm.
Brian Di Bartolomeo: very different for each other, but thrashing times and we both were able to listen and hear within ourselves. And we did that through different ways. I did that through yoga retreats, I did that through. Contemplation, journaling, things like that. And the reality of it is, and this is my hypothesis, is we probably had that in us before, but
Michael Sanders: Mm-hmm.
Brian Di Bartolomeo: it wasn't the time to listen nor hear. But we were able to do that. And then I think the other thing, the other sub-theme of this is we both sought out ways in which we can continue. to listen to ourselves intently and integrate,
Michael Sanders: Mm.
Brian Di Bartolomeo: integrate what we're hearing, understand, listen, process it, and then integrate that into our life. And for sure yoga both for it for both of us is a part of that. But I I continue to journal and listen and I'll just start writing. I'm like, ooh, that's
Michael Sanders: Mm-hmm.
Brian Di Bartolomeo: something there. And I need to absorb that and understand that. And it's a very helpful tool. For myself.
Michael Sanders: Yeah, that that's really something good to point out. it's not a linear exercise. There's no start point, stop point. you know, because really it's something that you should continue to cycle through continuously throughout your life. And I know just one of the exercises or kind of tools I used for introspection was, like I mentioned, psychedelic medicine. It's really
Brian Di Bartolomeo: Uh-huh.
Michael Sanders: kind of the ultimate inward journey, really. you know, because you kind of have these really profound existential experiences, but they're all existing entirely within yourself. You know,
Brian Di Bartolomeo: Within mm-hmm.
Michael Sanders: you're going on this wild journey and there's nothing but your own. Not only your own mind, but your own spirit and heart and everything else you'd attribute to what your sense of self is. so you know, those are a number of common threads that Brian and I have identified. Brian, I know you also kind of picked out some things that our stories did not have in common, which is also interesting, you know, because for folks
Brian Di Bartolomeo: Mm-hmm.
Michael Sanders: listening who are going through life pivots, I mean, there's no reason for us all to expect that we're all gonna have the same experience going going through this season
Brian Di Bartolomeo: Right.
Michael Sanders: of life.
Brian Di Bartolomeo: Yeah, I I I'm only gonna call out two because there's there's many. the two that I saw was definitely duration. Yeah, mine is kind of elongated, and it's
Michael Sanders: Mm.
Brian Di Bartolomeo: I'm lamenting very often in mine and reflecting and thinking and not wanting to make the wrong decision and really moving at a glacial pace, but it was the right pace for me until the point in which
Michael Sanders: Mm-hmm.
Brian Di Bartolomeo: I was comfortable. Yours seemed a little bit more condensed. There's still a duration and probably a little bit more of an onset once you
Michael Sanders: Mm-hmm.
Brian Di Bartolomeo: experience the trauma. Which, as we said, a a bullet will do that to you. It brings things
Michael Sanders: Mm-hmm.
Brian Di Bartolomeo: much more in your face. I would you agree with that sentiment of duration?
Michael Sanders: Yeah, to some degree. I mean, it kind of depends on like what constraints you're using to define your life pivot. I mean, especially to that earliest phase of a pivot, which is, you know, kind of that erosion of of self or or th you know, that dragging along experience. I mean Man, that would go all the way back to like the early 2000s, really, right? so maybe I was just kind of in that early phase, you know,
Brian Di Bartolomeo: Mm-hmm.
Michael Sanders: less acutely, like less overtly. and I'm sure I wasn't even sure that I was working towards something greater.
Brian Di Bartolomeo: Yeah. And that's a good point because some of this is we start to support others, you know, there's a period of time of self-discovery, and that's healthy. And
Michael Sanders: Mm-hmm. Yeah.
Brian Di Bartolomeo: what the difference is we start to really support people is listening in those moments. So if you feel
Michael Sanders: Mm-hmm.
Brian Di Bartolomeo: friction in those those moments, or you feel like you're eroding who you are. Pausing and understanding that. And we'll talk more as we get into kind of tools in which to do that. And that's that inflection
Michael Sanders: Mm-hmm.
Brian Di Bartolomeo: point of do you continue in, you know, this career or this relationship or whatever it might be. But those are the breadcrumbs that as you look back, you know, I've looked back now and I see my breadcrumbs. That didn't
Michael Sanders: Mm.
Brian Di Bartolomeo: mean I was ready to pivot at that point in time. It just
Michael Sanders: Right.
Brian Di Bartolomeo: may may have meant that those decisions. Could have been looked at very differently in the moment had I really
Michael Sanders: Yeah.
Brian Di Bartolomeo: paused, listened, thought, understood who I was, which is a key part of pivoting. so that's I think a a key description of the journey. But when we think of true pivot, like, okay, time to go,
Michael Sanders: Mm-hmm. Yeah.
Brian Di Bartolomeo: those durations differ by people for sure.
Michael Sanders: For sure. You know, we kind of refer to those as like the in between here and there moments, right? Where
Brian Di Bartolomeo: Yep. Mm-hmm.
Michael Sanders: you're like not only do you have some awareness, but you're starting to make some changes in your life, to get to there. I guess what what's another kind of difference you kind of notice between our stories?
Brian Di Bartolomeo: I think the other difference, and we we've alluded to this already, is how we both went through pivots. So mine was
Michael Sanders: Mm. Mm-hmm.
Brian Di Bartolomeo: more not more. There were many different things, but the the big theme for me was yoga retreats and contemplations. And yours was probably the psychedelic, and that was really what was transformational for you. And among other things, but very different that got us to kind of the same path. in a different duration of time.
Michael Sanders: Mm-hmm.
Brian Di Bartolomeo: I those are kind of the two major ones. There
Michael Sanders: Yeah.
Brian Di Bartolomeo: there of course were differences throughout. I think as we continue to share with audience, our audience, the methodology and the roadmap, it is exactly that. It's a roadmap,
Michael Sanders: Mm.
Brian Di Bartolomeo: it's an outline, there's boundaries
Michael Sanders: Yeah.
Brian Di Bartolomeo: and parameters around it, but it's it's tailored, not customized, it's tailored to each person's pivot and to each person. And the example that we use here is you and I often are talking about yoga, but that is not for everyone. You know, psychedelic medic
Michael Sanders: Mm.
Brian Di Bartolomeo: medicine might not be for everyone. Yoga retreats are not for everyone. So
Michael Sanders: Yeah. Yeah.
Brian Di Bartolomeo: it's really helping the person understand and find what it what is for them that equals
Michael Sanders: Yeah.
Brian Di Bartolomeo: the tools to help them listen, see, hear, move between here
Michael Sanders: Yeah.
Brian Di Bartolomeo: and there.
Michael Sanders: Yeah, it's really interesting. You know, there's almost like a infinite number of possibilities in terms of like how you work your way through your own life pivot. you know, so I'd encourage folks that are kind of grappling with stuff like that right now not to get so hung up on what should my path be, or how do I walk down this path. I I guess one lesson I learned and I I don't think I can take credit for this phrase. I'm sure I got it from somewhere. But you know, oftentimes there is this question from so folks who are grappling with something. They're like, what is my path? Right?
Brian Di Bartolomeo: Mm.
Michael Sanders: How how do I know this is the right path for me? And the kind of one-liner that I heard or came from somewhere that really kind of answered that question is whatever is on your path is your path. Right. So so if you're being confronted with something or an opportunity enters your purview, whatever it might be,
Brian Di Bartolomeo: Uh-huh.
Michael Sanders: instead of being like, is this the right path or not? I mean, it it's really kind of leading you down the path. You know, if it's on your path, it's your it's your path.
Brian Di Bartolomeo: Yeah. That's your path, yeah.
Michael Sanders: in short. And then so the other thing, you know, so we've talked about some common threads, we've talked
Brian Di Bartolomeo: Uh-huh.
Michael Sanders: about a few kind of like difference in example between stories, even though it all kind of navigated these kind of common undercurrents. the other thing that we've kind of identified is like five phases in the life pivot too. you know, the first one being, you know, kind of what we touched on earlier is, you know, it's this phase of like erosion and dis d disillusionment, right? and what were your kind of early signs of erosion? You know, I think you've mentioned a few of these, but I the thing that I I remember from your life stories you you talked about a lot of gripping. The the sensation of gripping in your life, that's something that really stuck out for me from your story.
Brian Di Bartolomeo: Yeah, definitely gripping through life. And, you know, examples of that, of course, are the work piece of holding it all together and doing everything for everyone.
Michael Sanders: Mm-hmm.
Brian Di Bartolomeo: Another the big piece for me was Eros erosion. I'm gonna keep using that word. Erosion of myself and my marriage. And I for everyone to know, this is my caveat here. I love my ex-husband. We talk often. we just weren't meant to be married, but there were signs many years before. So those are kind of the things that I wish for both of us that I listened to, he listened to earlier. And we maybe took an action earlier, but we didn't. And the key
Michael Sanders: Mm-hmm. Yeah.
Brian Di Bartolomeo: is is coming to the point when you do, because I very, very, very much so could have said, nah, I'm gonna stay in this and grip through this as well and
Michael Sanders: Mm-hmm.
Brian Di Bartolomeo: continue giving of myself to not be who I am, and that wouldn't be fair
Michael Sanders: Mm-hmm.
Brian Di Bartolomeo: to me.
Michael Sanders: Yeah. Yeah. And the I think the next phase that we identified I think is really interesting because this is something where you and I had like very different examples, but the phase was essentially the same. So the second phase of one's life pivot is, you know, kind of this cluster of like catalytic events in your life, like significant things in your life.
Brian Di Bartolomeo: You know, you you
Michael Sanders: Mm-hmm.
Brian Di Bartolomeo: think of everyone has basic needs. We all you you can either think of this as Maslow's hierarchy of needs, you could think
Michael Sanders: Mm-hmm.
Brian Di Bartolomeo: of yoga where you need a root. And as those foundations shift, you can't build anything else upon it. And so if
Michael Sanders: Mm-hmm.
Brian Di Bartolomeo: you're not rooted down or you don't have a strong sense of home and belonging or connection, everything else is kind of shifting sands for you. And that was what
Michael Sanders: Mm-hmm.
Brian Di Bartolomeo: I went through. That was my thrashing was like, whoa, everything's changing. Nothing looks similar nor familiar
Michael Sanders: Mm-hmm.
Brian Di Bartolomeo: after 20 years of life in Chicago,
Michael Sanders: Mm-hmm.
Brian Di Bartolomeo: but family, location, job, marriage, all that change. And it leaves you stripped down to nothing, or it left me, I should say, stripped down to nothing of like that's where the question came.
Michael Sanders: Yeah.
Brian Di Bartolomeo: Who am I?
Michael Sanders: Yeah. Actually, Brian, I would disagree with how you characterize that. I don't think you were stripped down to nothing. I think you were stripped down to your truest, most like subtle essence of who you are, right? Which is kind of everything. Right? So you maybe
Brian Di Bartolomeo: Yeah. Very true. Fair. Yeah, very fair.
Michael Sanders: maybe maybe a better way to describe that is you were stripped down to everything instead of nothing. yeah, that's that's it
Brian Di Bartolomeo: Yeah, right. That's true. Yeah, complete vulnerability. It's like losing all my feathers, molting is a good way to say it, and there
Michael Sanders: Yeah.
Brian Di Bartolomeo: I am naked, and I'm like, but
Michael Sanders: Yeah.
Brian Di Bartolomeo: those feathers grew back
Michael Sanders: Yeah.
Brian Di Bartolomeo: and here I am flying.
Michael Sanders: And then really the third phase of a life pivot that we kind of noticed is you you know you get to this breaking point like moment of choice time, right? and I know I don't know. At least in terms of my professional pivot, which is really just a a portion of this greater life pivot pie. You know, I really was, you know, like six months or so after my near-death experience. I'm just like, you know, I'm not doing agency life anymore. I'm not doing client work anymore. that was obviously a clear breaking point or kind of moment of
Brian Di Bartolomeo: Mm.
Michael Sanders: choice in my life. you know, but you know, like I said, the professional piece of the pie is just a smaller piece of a life pivot pie. The the other big piece in my life pivot pie was, you know, just my approach to like relationships became different.
Brian Di Bartolomeo: Mm-hmm.
Michael Sanders: You know, like I'm like I'm you know, I'm I'm no longer interested in maybe just dating casually and see what happens. You know, I'm just gonna kind of just I don't know if the right word is get more serious about it, you know, but I'm Gonna be less prone to distraction, right? You know, so you
Brian Di Bartolomeo: Sure. Yeah. Yeah.
Michael Sanders: know, I'm like, maybe it's time to kind of look for a deeper relationship rather than one that is just like fun for right now. you know what, what what did you think your breaking point or kind of moment of choice is? I you know, I don't mean to put words in your mouth, but you you know, you definitely had that Zoom call moment where you're like,
Brian Di Bartolomeo: Yeah.
Michael Sanders: I'm done with this job, you know. I'm I'm
Brian Di Bartolomeo: Yeah, th there were a few, a few points. So both things happened kind of job and marriage simultaneously. And
Michael Sanders: Mm-hmm. Yeah.
Brian Di Bartolomeo: the job part, there were a few key meetings with key leadership that were off.
Michael Sanders: Mm-hmm.
Brian Di Bartolomeo: And the tone of the company started to change and the culture started to change. And I was also expected to carry that out, which was where the friction
Michael Sanders: Yeah.
Brian Di Bartolomeo: started. It's like that. That's not me. That's not right. That's the first thing. So that was where that was starting to bubble and listen. But yeah, it was the Zoom call with complete disrespect. And that was where I had ever respect for myself. And I said no more. And I honored
Michael Sanders: Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm.
Brian Di Bartolomeo: that, which was giving up all these future things that never were really guaranteed. But I gave them all up and moved on. And
Michael Sanders: Mm-hmm.
Brian Di Bartolomeo: that was kind of the The big piece. And then with my husband at the time was the at a yoga retreat where I was doing mainly the processing for my marriage. Honestly, that was a lot of what
Michael Sanders: Mm.
Brian Di Bartolomeo: the yoga retreats are for because the work stuff was crisp and clear that that wasn't going to continue.
Michael Sanders: Yeah.
Brian Di Bartolomeo: but I had the realization of stealing, stealing time from him, sealing the future from him,
Michael Sanders: Mm.
Brian Di Bartolomeo: sealing time for me, the my future for myself. By remaining in something in which we both couldn't be our best selves. That's as simply
Michael Sanders: Mm-hmm.
Brian Di Bartolomeo: put. And it was the that was my aha moment where I was like, Well,
Michael Sanders: Yeah.
Brian Di Bartolomeo: come on, Brian. Like you say and do all this stuff. You love him, you love yourself. It's actually better if you let go and move on, allow both of you to
Michael Sanders: Yeah.
Brian Di Bartolomeo: flourish that way. So those two things were months apart from each other.
Michael Sanders: Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. But that they're they're like pretty clear breaking point or a d decision moment times. There's the the
Brian Di Bartolomeo: Mm-hmm. Yes.
Michael Sanders: professional, I'm leaving my job, and then there's the personal, you know, deep kind of reckoning in your marriage. You know,
Brian Di Bartolomeo: Yeah. Yeah.
Michael Sanders: and right after these kind of breaking point moments, it really leads you to the the next phase of a life pivot phase number four, which is You know, you're in this in-between space, you're in this in-between here and there space. You know, so like these these breaking point moments aren't the end of your life pivot. And they're not even the beginning of your life pivot. They're really like the middle or end third of your life pivot where you're kind of like in active pivot mode now, right?
Brian Di Bartolomeo: Right.
Michael Sanders: You're like, you don't necessarily know everything you're going to do or where you're gonna end up, but you're like You know, you're thrashing about, you're
Brian Di Bartolomeo: Mm-hmm.
Michael Sanders: you're stirring the life stew, you're trying to figure it all out. and that in-between space can be, you know, kind of very alienating or lonely or disenchanting. yeah.
Brian Di Bartolomeo: Yeah. Vulnerable. You're a it's very vulnerable, I think, for people because you're you're giving up or you most likely have given up or are about to give up, but
Michael Sanders: Yeah.
Brian Di Bartolomeo: you know you're moving to something,
Michael Sanders: Mm-hmm.
Brian Di Bartolomeo: but you're releasing everything maybe that you've known. And that is
Michael Sanders: Yeah. Yeah.
Brian Di Bartolomeo: absolutely terrifying. And you don't know what's next. You don't know who
Michael Sanders: Yep. Yeah.
Brian Di Bartolomeo: you're gonna become.
Michael Sanders: Yeah. Yeah. And that you know what I think we identified, is that uncertainty is a crucial component of a life pivot. You're you're not gonna pivot
Brian Di Bartolomeo: Yeah. Yes.
Michael Sanders: without uncertainty. And really certainty about the future is an illusion. So if you're like, I'm saving all this money away to buy boat or I don't know. what it is, you know, all all of that stuff is no guarantee. Anyhow, your your the s perceived security of your current job is
Brian Di Bartolomeo: Mm-hmm.
Michael Sanders: an illusion too, because that could be taken away at any moment. So
Brian Di Bartolomeo: A million percent.
Michael Sanders: those are all, you know, the difficult things that I think people are gonna commonly experience when they're in this in-between phase. And then, you know, once you've kind of made some progress during all that stuff up, you've You know, you've had your breaking point moments, you know, you're actively pivoting, you don't know exactly what that looks like, but you're like, you're doing it, whatever it may be. You know, at some point you've made progress and you know, the journey doesn't end there, the pivot doesn't end there. You're kind of you've created a new identity for yourself, a new alignment of like what is important to you. And you
Brian Di Bartolomeo: Mm-hmm.
Michael Sanders: know, it's not a destination. Like we, you know, between here and there, there sounds like a destination, but it's really
Brian Di Bartolomeo: Right.
Michael Sanders: ongoing series of places you're gonna end up. You know, so you're kind of like constantly, or at least I am, I'm re routinely kind of questioning myself and I'm like, am I falling back to this old person I didn't want to be or habits of this old person I didn't want to be, or am I like fully embracing this. this new self of this new identity I've created for myself.
Brian Di Bartolomeo: Right.
Michael Sanders: Right. And I think maybe an example that a lot of people might be able to identify is, you know, if you've left that job, you've always wanted to leave and you're kind of building a new life. You know, but I get like LinkedIn emails about like this role might be great for you or whatever it
Brian Di Bartolomeo: Right. Yeah.
Michael Sanders: is. And I, you know, it's tempting. I'm like, it would be great to have like this predictable paycheck and you know, take some uncertainty out of my life. But I'm always like, nope, can't do it. You know, like I said, I've reached this phase in life where it's a joke. I don't mean it literally, but I consider myself to be unemployable.
Brian Di Bartolomeo: Uh-huh.
Michael Sanders: because I I don't know if I can do what would be required of me in in certain roles. I guess Brian, like how are from your own life story and even right now, 'cause like your life peppet story is still unfolding, you know, what are you doing to make sure you're staying on your path? You're not straying off that you're, you know, aligned with the best version of yourself possible.
Brian Di Bartolomeo: I think you know, we talked the previous stage is really the stew and
Michael Sanders: Yeah, so.
Brian Di Bartolomeo: vulnerable. This stage is we look at re-identification.
Michael Sanders: Mm-hmm.
Brian Di Bartolomeo: This is where it be you become a little lighter. You have hope,
Michael Sanders: Mm-hmm.
Brian Di Bartolomeo: you have excitement, you have maybe a forward direction. I'm not saying which direction that is, it's just forward. but at the same time, there's still vulnerabilities in here to use as you said.
Michael Sanders: Mm-hmm.
Brian Di Bartolomeo: Like you am I slipping back? Am I doing something that I shouldn't? Am I gonna take that job because it's comfortable for me? it right, yeah.
Michael Sanders: Yeah, right. Because it's certain, right? Yeah.
Brian Di Bartolomeo: I I think for me what I'm noticing is routine is a big part of something
Michael Sanders: Mm.
Brian Di Bartolomeo: that I need. So I have my kind of routine through the week, which involves my teaching schedule, a little bit of marketing work that I do for the studio, some things like
Michael Sanders: Mm-hmm.
Brian Di Bartolomeo: that. And and that is fulfilling me enough
Michael Sanders: Mm-hmm.
Brian Di Bartolomeo: at the same time while looking at what are the new things that I'm looking to achieve. Which is this is an example of one of those, is our work together is very meaningful to me as to where we're going.
Michael Sanders: Mm-hmm.
Brian Di Bartolomeo: And then I think the third one is is like, and I do this week by week. What are the things that are gonna bring me joy? And then
Michael Sanders: Mm.
Brian Di Bartolomeo: what are the what are my boundaries? And the boundaries is probably the big new one for me of saying no to things. So what I mean
Michael Sanders: Mm-hmm.
Brian Di Bartolomeo: is I'll I'll make plans for a few nights maybe, but I'm not gonna make plans for every night. And I'm not gonna make plans stacked
Michael Sanders: Mm-hmm.
Brian Di Bartolomeo: back to back. And I'm not gonna have meetings back to back. And that's that is new for me. Cause I would always say, Yeah, yes, I'm a yes man. Yes, I'll be there. Yes, I'll be there.
Michael Sanders: Mm-hmm.
Brian Di Bartolomeo: And even like friends in Chicago inviting me to things, normally I would drop everything and go. And now I look at my week and I'm like, I'm gonna be exhausted. I'm already
Michael Sanders: Yeah.
Brian Di Bartolomeo: Like I need sleep. I know what the next week looks like. I would love to drive into Chicago for the weekend and to have dinner with everyone, but that's not realistic. And it doesn't mean I don't love you any
Michael Sanders: Mm-hmm.
Brian Di Bartolomeo: differently or less. But for where I'm at right now, I can't do that to myself. So the the answer to that is putting me first, which is not
Michael Sanders: Mm-hmm.
Brian Di Bartolomeo: who I was as a caregiver, but that is when I'm honoring. As I proceed forward to ensure I have continued alignment and integration.
Michael Sanders: Yeah, and an another I think an important thing we noticed is, you know, to maintain this alignment, your definition of success changes. Right? I I know from your story, your definition of success changed to simply I don't think about success and I I just ask myself if I'm happy now or not. And if I'm happy or content. I mean, let's
Brian Di Bartolomeo: Yeah. Yeah.
Michael Sanders: be real, you're you're not ha happy twenty-four hours a day, seven days a week.
Brian Di Bartolomeo: You are not. You are not.
Michael Sanders: you know, but have you found some sense of inner peace, inner contentment,
Brian Di Bartolomeo: Mm-hmm.
Michael Sanders: you know, then I think you are aligned with your life pivot and the better version of yourself. So, Brian, final question from this debrief of my story and your own. I guess what is the most profound lesson learned that you glean from those stories?
Brian Di Bartolomeo: I I'm gonna use the word progress or
Michael Sanders: Mm.
Brian Di Bartolomeo: progression. You can use either one of those
Michael Sanders: Mm-hmm.
Brian Di Bartolomeo: words. And what I mean by that is what you saw with both of our stories was this movement forward. Doesn't mean
Michael Sanders: Mm-hmm.
Brian Di Bartolomeo: we didn't slip back, but we continued moving forward. Often we were at the in between, between here and there, and we stayed
Michael Sanders: Mm-hmm.
Brian Di Bartolomeo: there for different durations of time. But then we progress forward. And
Michael Sanders: Yeah.
Brian Di Bartolomeo: if we really dug in, I think we would see teeny tiny, I know for me, we would see teeny, tiny, little, little, little baby steps, little teeny baby
Michael Sanders: Mm-hmm.
Brian Di Bartolomeo: steps that to an outsider wouldn't look like anything to anyone.
Michael Sanders: Yeah.
Brian Di Bartolomeo: But when you're in it, you're like, wow, that was a big next step.
Michael Sanders: Yeah. Yeah. I think that's a a great thing to or a great lesson to point out to our listeners is, you know, I really don't want folks to get frustrated in that feeling of like, I'm not doing enough. I'm not pre making progress quickly enough, whatever it might be. You know, again, there's no timeline on a life pivot. It's just are you working on it or are you not working on it? If you're even making the most incremental progress, I really think you're headed in the right direction.
Brian Di Bartolomeo: Mm-hmm.
Michael Sanders: So, you know, I think it's time to sign off. You know, I wanted to thank everybody for joining us for another episode of Between Here and There. And really, we would love to hear from folks. you know, we talked a lot about the phases of going through a life pivot or the common threads of experiencing a life pivot. do those resonate with anyone listening? does anyone listening to us now think they're going through some sort of pivot or on the precipice of a pivot right now? If so, what phase do you think you're in? is it one of the phases that we mentioned or do you feel like you're in a different space? so you know, thanks again for listening, thanks for watching. Make sure to follow us on all the social socials, Facebook, Instagram, and we will all be talking together again soon.
Brian Di Bartolomeo: Perfect. Thanks, Michael.
Brian Di Bartolomeo: Hello, Michael. So good to see you
Michael Sanders: Hello.
Brian Di Bartolomeo: again. Yes. Well, today we kind of did a little look back from our two pivot conversations, both your life pivot and my life pivot. And as we just had that little debrief, we started to see some themes that were emergent and some that weren't. And we both agreed it was a good topic to bring forward.
Michael Sanders: Yeah, it's really interesting because like when we went back and started digging through like roughly the transcript scripts of my story and your own, we did start to see some common threads. And I'm really interested in like the common threads that you and I have in our life pivot stories. I'm really curious to see if listeners and viewers who are going through a pivot kind of have the same kind of underlying common threads too. Yeah,
Brian Di Bartolomeo: Yeah, how does it resonate with them? Mm-hmm.
Michael Sanders: exactly. So Looking back at kind of what we had identified at least one of the things was kind of like, you know, we're kind of calling it disillusionment with traditional success, in that both you and I had, you know, relatively successful careers. We have some of the the creature comforts that a little bit of success might bring you, you know, house, a car, whatever you want to call it. But the outward markers of success really no longer provided internal fulfillment. I guess w what what does that what d what does that trigger in your recollection of your your own pivot story?
Brian Di Bartolomeo: Yeah, it's interesting. As I was further reflecting on our conversations, the the thing that I summarize this with was drag versus enjoyment. And
Michael Sanders: Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm.
Brian Di Bartolomeo: to me, that meant like once you're going through something that you thought you always wanted to go through, all of a sudden sometimes you have a realization that it's it's not actually what you wanted. You know, a
Michael Sanders: Mm.
Brian Di Bartolomeo: fantasy. I think we even said this during the episode where I brought it up. A fantasy is never the same. We always make it
Michael Sanders: Yeah.
Brian Di Bartolomeo: better in our mind. And then when we act on
Michael Sanders: Yeah.
Brian Di Bartolomeo: it, it's like that wasn't it.
Michael Sanders: Yeah.
Brian Di Bartolomeo: And we're we're dragging. A lot of people are dragging. I I'll speak specifically for myself. I dragged myself through many years, not listening to myself, which is gonna be another theme here, but dragging myself through because I thought that's what I
Michael Sanders: Mm-hmm.
Brian Di Bartolomeo: absolutely had to do.
Michael Sanders: Yeah. Or like I I think this is something a lot of people identify, that feeling of like dragging yourself to work specifically. Like, you know, you're you're going into the office or wherever your workplace is, you know, some days you feel like, it's, you know, it's worth it because I'm making progress towards these, you know, material dreams of mine. But you still kind of feel like you're dragging yourself there. And really in this kind of disillusionment and like traditional success phase, I think this is also where a lot of people would experience like a professional burnout of some sort, right?
Brian Di Bartolomeo: Mm. Yeah.
Michael Sanders: You know, and that kind of goes along with your quote unquote drag-along feeling in terms of a common th theme in our stories. And then really the next commonality that appeared in at least my story and your story, and curious to see if this appears in other people's like pivot stories. I kind of suspect it will. is you just really have these like significant life events that are often you know they feel kind of existential in nature. So health and illness issues of f either for yourself or a loved one, you know, in my case I got robbed and I got shot, you know, so like a near death experience is, you know, definitely a a catalyst. and Brian, I guess what looking back on your life story, I guess what are the the big life events that you kind of, you know, were important in your pivot.
Brian Di Bartolomeo: Yeah, my I identified just significant loss in such a short period of time. You know, I
Michael Sanders: Mm-hmm.
Brian Di Bartolomeo: I moved out of Chicago where I'd lived for twenty years. I lost my friends that I had made over that duration of time. Still have them,
Michael Sanders: Mm-hmm.
Brian Di Bartolomeo: but proximity change and that changes the relationship
Michael Sanders: Mm-hmm.
Brian Di Bartolomeo: and connection you have. lost my dog, lost my mom, friend diagnosed with stage four breast cancer. moved to a
Michael Sanders: Mm-hmm.
Brian Di Bartolomeo: new town. So all of that was new. And then finally, you know, it it went on from there for loss of marriage and career. So it kind of for
Michael Sanders: Yeah.
Brian Di Bartolomeo: me was the full gamut there. Luckily I had my health, but a significant amount of loss.
Michael Sanders: Yeah. Yeah. You Yeah.
Brian Di Bartolomeo: was a high amount all at the same time and and back to kind of the dragging. I continued
Michael Sanders: Mm-hmm.
Brian Di Bartolomeo: to erode who I was, my authentic self, through that, trying
Michael Sanders: Mm-hmm.
Brian Di Bartolomeo: to just keep pushing forward, pushing forward, pushing forward, getting through it. And that was not the healthiest thing to do.
Michael Sanders: Yeah, I know certainly in my own case, you know, the the near death experience of getting shot, like in some ways it made me impatient in a good way,
Brian Di Bartolomeo: Yeah, yeah.
Michael Sanders: right? Because I I or intolerant in a or more intolerant in a good way, 'cause you know, certainly it was eye opening from a professional and kind of materialistic viewpoint, you know, like are are
Brian Di Bartolomeo: Mm-hmm.
Michael Sanders: these physical goods that I'm able to provide for myself worth maybe doing things professionally that you no longer feel fulfilling. And obviously a
Brian Di Bartolomeo: Right. Yeah.
Michael Sanders: bullet is a good teacher to teach you no, at least in my c case, right? Yeah,
Brian Di Bartolomeo: Very quick teacher, right? Mm-hmm.
Michael Sanders: very, very speedy.
Brian Di Bartolomeo: Yes.
Michael Sanders: and then another thing that at least you and I had in common, and I don't know if this is gonna resonate with all of our listeners or just some of them. But I think you and I both kind of found solace to some degree, like no matter where you are, no matter where you live, no matter what your relationship is like, you know, kind of yoga and stillness and meditation and kind of that inward looking exercise was really grounding
Brian Di Bartolomeo: Mm-hmm.
Michael Sanders: and rooting, at least for us. You know, I've always described my appreciation for yoga. As it is the closest I've come to as a handbook for living life, right?
Brian Di Bartolomeo: Mm.
Michael Sanders: you know, beyond the physical practice, the downward dogs, all
Brian Di Bartolomeo: Right.
Michael Sanders: that kind of stuff. you know, being able to cultivate some discipline, to tune things out, to go inward. I guess what kind of how how did that stuff kind of end up being a a common thread
Brian Di Bartolomeo: Yeah.
Michael Sanders: for you as well?
Brian Di Bartolomeo: I mean, similar common thread. I I think the way I relate it to our audience is finding something to root or settle in that becomes a tool
Michael Sanders: Mm-hmm.
Brian Di Bartolomeo: for your pivot. But for us specifically,
Michael Sanders: Mm-hmm.
Brian Di Bartolomeo: it was yoga. And to your point, it was more for me about the philosophy, methodology, the approach. And it was an exact overlay of my psychology background and the way in which I was living.
Michael Sanders: Mm-hmm.
Brian Di Bartolomeo: And it turned out it was yoga. So that was pretty special for me to say, wow, this is my blueprint, similar as you said. But I I would imagine that other listeners are going to have something like that that they root into whether that's church,
Michael Sanders: Mm-hmm.
Brian Di Bartolomeo: some sort of community connection, maybe some sort of belief. It can be anything.
Michael Sanders: Mm-hmm.
Brian Di Bartolomeo: That allows you to kind of settle in and find that stillness within self.
Michael Sanders: And then the fourth thing we've identified that was at least a common thread between my story and your own is we both had these moments where. We were, you know, shifting from having more to having less or at a minimum appreciating having less. And I know certainly from my own life pivot story, kind of one of the aha moments I had or epiphanies I had is, you know, I'm sitting at my house, you know, nice yard, nice house, nice pool, nice car, whatever. And I'm basically like, this is kind of ridiculous, because what do I do? From here, like I get a second pool. What am I gonna do with two pools? You know,
Brian Di Bartolomeo: Right. Yeah.
Michael Sanders: what am I gonna do with two houses? I can only live in one of them at a time. What am what am I gonna do with two cars? I work from home, I don't even really need one car. I
Brian Di Bartolomeo: Right.
Michael Sanders: don't need to get a second dog, you know. So that that kind of epiphany that especially the things that were bringing me kind of contentment at that time was basically just practicing yoga and reading books. You know, I'm like I I can get books for free at the library. and
Brian Di Bartolomeo: Yeah, yeah.
Michael Sanders: I I can practice yoga at home for free as well. So why am I pushing this hard to get, you know, more and more of what I already have?
Brian Di Bartolomeo: Right. Yeah, I I for me and I think for you as well, that it this connects quite well back with the disillusionment of success. And
Michael Sanders: Mm-hmm.
Brian Di Bartolomeo: that had already been happening of like, well, how much do I need? And my drive was really retirement. That was really what I was focusing
Michael Sanders: Mm-hmm.
Brian Di Bartolomeo: on, like, I need to be done working so that
Michael Sanders: Yeah.
Brian Di Bartolomeo: I can live the life I want to live and not have the stress I think I need to have in order to get to that point. And I think once I got my arms around, okay, this is really not joyful for me anymore because it's
Michael Sanders: Mm-hmm.
Brian Di Bartolomeo: I'm losing my authentic self, immediately the overlap came. Well, then I would definitely have to do with less. And that and I was okay with that. And
Michael Sanders: Yeah.
Brian Di Bartolomeo: my aha was this moment where I my husband and time and I acquired short-term rental houses and we had a house in Florida that we wintered in and we had houses here in Michigan and every house was full to capacity and each
Michael Sanders: Mm.
Brian Di Bartolomeo: house that had a garage was full to capacity and sheds were full to capacity. And I I was talking to a friend at the company that I had left and I was sharing with I was like, you know what's interesting? I don't have kids. I don't have anyone close. And when I die, my nieces and nephews might unfortunately begrudgingly be like, we got to clean all these houses out. Number
Michael Sanders: Yeah.
Brian Di Bartolomeo: one. Number two is they're not going to know what any of the things are or have any importance
Michael Sanders: Yeah.
Brian Di Bartolomeo: to them. And number three is maybe they take a box, a carload, but maybe a box of things or maybe like something
Michael Sanders: Yeah.
Brian Di Bartolomeo: for a memento. All this other stuff means nothing to them.
Michael Sanders: Yeah. Yeah.
Brian Di Bartolomeo: And that drive to have to keep acquiring more immediately was like gone, dissipated. And then it and then it became
Michael Sanders: Yeah. Yeah. You know, one it
Brian Di Bartolomeo: for me, that was a thing. Now it was like, what do I what do I minimally need? It can still be nice, but
Michael Sanders: Yeah.
Brian Di Bartolomeo: what do I minimally need and approach that as my goal of success now?
Michael Sanders: Yeah, we're you know, we're certainly not talking about such an extreme where you literally sell everything you own and live as as in a tent in the woods somewhere. Although if you want to do that, go ahead. You know, but
Brian Di Bartolomeo: Real meager. Mm-hmm. If you yeah, yeah. Mm-hmm.
Michael Sanders: it's you know kind of taking stock of what you really need and what you really don't need and what ultimately makes you happy. and
Brian Di Bartolomeo: Right. Yeah.
Michael Sanders: Brian, I've heard you talk about retirement. Like this, and I've heard
Brian Di Bartolomeo: Mm.
Michael Sanders: other people speak of it this way, as that, you know, you're you're on the rat wheel, you're doing the race so that you can retire. And really, what a lot of people I think mean when they talk about retirement, they're talking about living the kind of life that they truly want to live. Right. So then my
Brian Di Bartolomeo: Yeah. Yeah.
Michael Sanders: another aha moment is, you know, I could have done the same thing there, but I'm like, I'm done deferring my life to.
Brian Di Bartolomeo: Yes.
Michael Sanders: some future date, right? I'm done deferring living how I want to some point in the future.
Brian Di Bartolomeo: Beautifully put. Mm-hmm.
Michael Sanders: and even if I can't realize the whole grand vision immediately right now, I can get a lot closer to it than I am right now
Brian Di Bartolomeo: Yeah.
Michael Sanders: by stepping off this rat wheel. And you know, you still have to put food on the table and pay your rent and all that stuff. but if you if you've catch yourself viewing retirement as really more akin to simply the way you want to live. your authentic self.
Brian Di Bartolomeo: Mm-hmm.
Michael Sanders: I'd encourage folks to think about that a little bit and kind of dig into why they might doing that, might be doing that And then yeah. Yeah.
Brian Di Bartolomeo: I I think it's very true. Very, very true. I know a lot of people that are in that moment that are in between right now and they're
Michael Sanders: Mm-hmm.
Brian Di Bartolomeo: pushing to drive to the point of nearly hindering their own health. And they
Michael Sanders: Yeah.
Brian Di Bartolomeo: potentially are. And it's very difficult to see, but they're trying
Michael Sanders: Yeah.
Brian Di Bartolomeo: to do it for this bigger good that is not even a guarantee, as we know.
Michael Sanders: Right. Totally. I mean, how many stories have we heard where someone passes away six weeks after they retire? Right.
Brian Di Bartolomeo: Yeah.
Michael Sanders: I did not I did not want to be that guy.
Brian Di Bartolomeo: Yeah, not at all.
Michael Sanders: and I think the fifth thing that we identified as a common thread was really just kind of this interdirected wisdom and authenticity. And what we mean by that is, you know, we're trying to create a space here between here and there. That helps people navigate their own life pivots. but we also don't have the illusion that we're gonna be able to, you know, spoon feed answers to people as to what their life choices should be. Ultimately, all those answers to one's own life pivot exist within themselves. and I think that's something that we both identified in our own stories. You know, for me it was kind of meditation and reflection and I could just kind of feel when things were off and not headed in the right direction.
Brian Di Bartolomeo: Right.
Michael Sanders: I guess what experiences did you have in your pivot story that, you know, ultimately you realize these answers were already within yourself?
Brian Di Bartolomeo: Yeah, I I think expounding on what you said, we both had, as you termed it, the thrashing, which is our new to heart term because it is so descriptive. And I think everyone can understand that these thrashing durations,
Michael Sanders: Mm-hmm.
Brian Di Bartolomeo: very different for each other, but thrashing times and we both were able to listen and hear within ourselves. And we did that through different ways. I did that through yoga retreats, I did that through. Contemplation, journaling, things like that. And the reality of it is, and this is my hypothesis, is we probably had that in us before, but
Michael Sanders: Mm-hmm.
Brian Di Bartolomeo: it wasn't the time to listen nor hear. But we were able to do that. And then I think the other thing, the other sub-theme of this is we both sought out ways in which we can continue. to listen to ourselves intently and integrate,
Michael Sanders: Mm.
Brian Di Bartolomeo: integrate what we're hearing, understand, listen, process it, and then integrate that into our life. And for sure yoga both for it for both of us is a part of that. But I I continue to journal and listen and I'll just start writing. I'm like, ooh, that's
Michael Sanders: Mm-hmm.
Brian Di Bartolomeo: something there. And I need to absorb that and understand that. And it's a very helpful tool. For myself.
Michael Sanders: Yeah, that that's really something good to point out. it's not a linear exercise. There's no start point, stop point. you know, because really it's something that you should continue to cycle through continuously throughout your life. And I know just one of the exercises or kind of tools I used for introspection was, like I mentioned, psychedelic medicine. It's really
Brian Di Bartolomeo: Uh-huh.
Michael Sanders: kind of the ultimate inward journey, really. you know, because you kind of have these really profound existential experiences, but they're all existing entirely within yourself. You know,
Brian Di Bartolomeo: Within mm-hmm.
Michael Sanders: you're going on this wild journey and there's nothing but your own. Not only your own mind, but your own spirit and heart and everything else you'd attribute to what your sense of self is. so you know, those are a number of common threads that Brian and I have identified. Brian, I know you also kind of picked out some things that our stories did not have in common, which is also interesting, you know, because for folks
Brian Di Bartolomeo: Mm-hmm.
Michael Sanders: listening who are going through life pivots, I mean, there's no reason for us all to expect that we're all gonna have the same experience going going through this season
Brian Di Bartolomeo: Right.
Michael Sanders: of life.
Brian Di Bartolomeo: Yeah, I I I'm only gonna call out two because there's there's many. the two that I saw was definitely duration. Yeah, mine is kind of elongated, and it's
Michael Sanders: Mm.
Brian Di Bartolomeo: I'm lamenting very often in mine and reflecting and thinking and not wanting to make the wrong decision and really moving at a glacial pace, but it was the right pace for me until the point in which
Michael Sanders: Mm-hmm.
Brian Di Bartolomeo: I was comfortable. Yours seemed a little bit more condensed. There's still a duration and probably a little bit more of an onset once you
Michael Sanders: Mm-hmm.
Brian Di Bartolomeo: experience the trauma. Which, as we said, a a bullet will do that to you. It brings things
Michael Sanders: Mm-hmm.
Brian Di Bartolomeo: much more in your face. I would you agree with that sentiment of duration?
Michael Sanders: Yeah, to some degree. I mean, it kind of depends on like what constraints you're using to define your life pivot. I mean, especially to that earliest phase of a pivot, which is, you know, kind of that erosion of of self or or th you know, that dragging along experience. I mean Man, that would go all the way back to like the early 2000s, really, right? so maybe I was just kind of in that early phase, you know,
Brian Di Bartolomeo: Mm-hmm.
Michael Sanders: less acutely, like less overtly. and I'm sure I wasn't even sure that I was working towards something greater.
Brian Di Bartolomeo: Yeah. And that's a good point because some of this is we start to support others, you know, there's a period of time of self-discovery, and that's healthy. And
Michael Sanders: Mm-hmm. Yeah.
Brian Di Bartolomeo: what the difference is we start to really support people is listening in those moments. So if you feel
Michael Sanders: Mm-hmm.
Brian Di Bartolomeo: friction in those those moments, or you feel like you're eroding who you are. Pausing and understanding that. And we'll talk more as we get into kind of tools in which to do that. And that's that inflection
Michael Sanders: Mm-hmm.
Brian Di Bartolomeo: point of do you continue in, you know, this career or this relationship or whatever it might be. But those are the breadcrumbs that as you look back, you know, I've looked back now and I see my breadcrumbs. That didn't
Michael Sanders: Mm.
Brian Di Bartolomeo: mean I was ready to pivot at that point in time. It just
Michael Sanders: Right.
Brian Di Bartolomeo: may may have meant that those decisions. Could have been looked at very differently in the moment had I really
Michael Sanders: Yeah.
Brian Di Bartolomeo: paused, listened, thought, understood who I was, which is a key part of pivoting. so that's I think a a key description of the journey. But when we think of true pivot, like, okay, time to go,
Michael Sanders: Mm-hmm. Yeah.
Brian Di Bartolomeo: those durations differ by people for sure.
Michael Sanders: For sure. You know, we kind of refer to those as like the in between here and there moments, right? Where
Brian Di Bartolomeo: Yep. Mm-hmm.
Michael Sanders: you're like not only do you have some awareness, but you're starting to make some changes in your life, to get to there. I guess what what's another kind of difference you kind of notice between our stories?
Brian Di Bartolomeo: I think the other difference, and we we've alluded to this already, is how we both went through pivots. So mine was
Michael Sanders: Mm. Mm-hmm.
Brian Di Bartolomeo: more not more. There were many different things, but the the big theme for me was yoga retreats and contemplations. And yours was probably the psychedelic, and that was really what was transformational for you. And among other things, but very different that got us to kind of the same path. in a different duration of time.
Michael Sanders: Mm-hmm.
Brian Di Bartolomeo: I those are kind of the two major ones. There
Michael Sanders: Yeah.
Brian Di Bartolomeo: there of course were differences throughout. I think as we continue to share with audience, our audience, the methodology and the roadmap, it is exactly that. It's a roadmap,
Michael Sanders: Mm.
Brian Di Bartolomeo: it's an outline, there's boundaries
Michael Sanders: Yeah.
Brian Di Bartolomeo: and parameters around it, but it's it's tailored, not customized, it's tailored to each person's pivot and to each person. And the example that we use here is you and I often are talking about yoga, but that is not for everyone. You know, psychedelic medic
Michael Sanders: Mm.
Brian Di Bartolomeo: medicine might not be for everyone. Yoga retreats are not for everyone. So
Michael Sanders: Yeah. Yeah.
Brian Di Bartolomeo: it's really helping the person understand and find what it what is for them that equals
Michael Sanders: Yeah.
Brian Di Bartolomeo: the tools to help them listen, see, hear, move between here
Michael Sanders: Yeah.
Brian Di Bartolomeo: and there.
Michael Sanders: Yeah, it's really interesting. You know, there's almost like a infinite number of possibilities in terms of like how you work your way through your own life pivot. you know, so I'd encourage folks that are kind of grappling with stuff like that right now not to get so hung up on what should my path be, or how do I walk down this path. I I guess one lesson I learned and I I don't think I can take credit for this phrase. I'm sure I got it from somewhere. But you know, oftentimes there is this question from so folks who are grappling with something. They're like, what is my path? Right?
Brian Di Bartolomeo: Mm.
Michael Sanders: How how do I know this is the right path for me? And the kind of one-liner that I heard or came from somewhere that really kind of answered that question is whatever is on your path is your path. Right. So so if you're being confronted with something or an opportunity enters your purview, whatever it might be,
Brian Di Bartolomeo: Uh-huh.
Michael Sanders: instead of being like, is this the right path or not? I mean, it it's really kind of leading you down the path. You know, if it's on your path, it's your it's your path.
Brian Di Bartolomeo: Yeah. That's your path, yeah.
Michael Sanders: in short. And then so the other thing, you know, so we've talked about some common threads, we've talked
Brian Di Bartolomeo: Uh-huh.
Michael Sanders: about a few kind of like difference in example between stories, even though it all kind of navigated these kind of common undercurrents. the other thing that we've kind of identified is like five phases in the life pivot too. you know, the first one being, you know, kind of what we touched on earlier is, you know, it's this phase of like erosion and dis d disillusionment, right? and what were your kind of early signs of erosion? You know, I think you've mentioned a few of these, but I the thing that I I remember from your life stories you you talked about a lot of gripping. The the sensation of gripping in your life, that's something that really stuck out for me from your story.
Brian Di Bartolomeo: Yeah, definitely gripping through life. And, you know, examples of that, of course, are the work piece of holding it all together and doing everything for everyone.
Michael Sanders: Mm-hmm.
Brian Di Bartolomeo: Another the big piece for me was Eros erosion. I'm gonna keep using that word. Erosion of myself and my marriage. And I for everyone to know, this is my caveat here. I love my ex-husband. We talk often. we just weren't meant to be married, but there were signs many years before. So those are kind of the things that I wish for both of us that I listened to, he listened to earlier. And we maybe took an action earlier, but we didn't. And the key
Michael Sanders: Mm-hmm. Yeah.
Brian Di Bartolomeo: is is coming to the point when you do, because I very, very, very much so could have said, nah, I'm gonna stay in this and grip through this as well and
Michael Sanders: Mm-hmm.
Brian Di Bartolomeo: continue giving of myself to not be who I am, and that wouldn't be fair
Michael Sanders: Mm-hmm.
Brian Di Bartolomeo: to me.
Michael Sanders: Yeah. Yeah. And the I think the next phase that we identified I think is really interesting because this is something where you and I had like very different examples, but the phase was essentially the same. So the second phase of one's life pivot is, you know, kind of this cluster of like catalytic events in your life, like significant things in your life.
Brian Di Bartolomeo: You know, you you
Michael Sanders: Mm-hmm.
Brian Di Bartolomeo: think of everyone has basic needs. We all you you can either think of this as Maslow's hierarchy of needs, you could think
Michael Sanders: Mm-hmm.
Brian Di Bartolomeo: of yoga where you need a root. And as those foundations shift, you can't build anything else upon it. And so if
Michael Sanders: Mm-hmm.
Brian Di Bartolomeo: you're not rooted down or you don't have a strong sense of home and belonging or connection, everything else is kind of shifting sands for you. And that was what
Michael Sanders: Mm-hmm.
Brian Di Bartolomeo: I went through. That was my thrashing was like, whoa, everything's changing. Nothing looks similar nor familiar
Michael Sanders: Mm-hmm.
Brian Di Bartolomeo: after 20 years of life in Chicago,
Michael Sanders: Mm-hmm.
Brian Di Bartolomeo: but family, location, job, marriage, all that change. And it leaves you stripped down to nothing, or it left me, I should say, stripped down to nothing of like that's where the question came.
Michael Sanders: Yeah.
Brian Di Bartolomeo: Who am I?
Michael Sanders: Yeah. Actually, Brian, I would disagree with how you characterize that. I don't think you were stripped down to nothing. I think you were stripped down to your truest, most like subtle essence of who you are, right? Which is kind of everything. Right? So you maybe
Brian Di Bartolomeo: Yeah. Very true. Fair. Yeah, very fair.
Michael Sanders: maybe maybe a better way to describe that is you were stripped down to everything instead of nothing. yeah, that's that's it
Brian Di Bartolomeo: Yeah, right. That's true. Yeah, complete vulnerability. It's like losing all my feathers, molting is a good way to say it, and there
Michael Sanders: Yeah.
Brian Di Bartolomeo: I am naked, and I'm like, but
Michael Sanders: Yeah.
Brian Di Bartolomeo: those feathers grew back
Michael Sanders: Yeah.
Brian Di Bartolomeo: and here I am flying.
Michael Sanders: And then really the third phase of a life pivot that we kind of noticed is you you know you get to this breaking point like moment of choice time, right? and I know I don't know. At least in terms of my professional pivot, which is really just a a portion of this greater life pivot pie. You know, I really was, you know, like six months or so after my near-death experience. I'm just like, you know, I'm not doing agency life anymore. I'm not doing client work anymore. that was obviously a clear breaking point or kind of moment of
Brian Di Bartolomeo: Mm.
Michael Sanders: choice in my life. you know, but you know, like I said, the professional piece of the pie is just a smaller piece of a life pivot pie. The the other big piece in my life pivot pie was, you know, just my approach to like relationships became different.
Brian Di Bartolomeo: Mm-hmm.
Michael Sanders: You know, like I'm like I'm you know, I'm I'm no longer interested in maybe just dating casually and see what happens. You know, I'm just gonna kind of just I don't know if the right word is get more serious about it, you know, but I'm Gonna be less prone to distraction, right? You know, so you
Brian Di Bartolomeo: Sure. Yeah. Yeah.
Michael Sanders: know, I'm like, maybe it's time to kind of look for a deeper relationship rather than one that is just like fun for right now. you know what, what what did you think your breaking point or kind of moment of choice is? I you know, I don't mean to put words in your mouth, but you you know, you definitely had that Zoom call moment where you're like,
Brian Di Bartolomeo: Yeah.
Michael Sanders: I'm done with this job, you know. I'm I'm
Brian Di Bartolomeo: Yeah, th there were a few, a few points. So both things happened kind of job and marriage simultaneously. And
Michael Sanders: Mm-hmm. Yeah.
Brian Di Bartolomeo: the job part, there were a few key meetings with key leadership that were off.
Michael Sanders: Mm-hmm.
Brian Di Bartolomeo: And the tone of the company started to change and the culture started to change. And I was also expected to carry that out, which was where the friction
Michael Sanders: Yeah.
Brian Di Bartolomeo: started. It's like that. That's not me. That's not right. That's the first thing. So that was where that was starting to bubble and listen. But yeah, it was the Zoom call with complete disrespect. And that was where I had ever respect for myself. And I said no more. And I honored
Michael Sanders: Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm.
Brian Di Bartolomeo: that, which was giving up all these future things that never were really guaranteed. But I gave them all up and moved on. And
Michael Sanders: Mm-hmm.
Brian Di Bartolomeo: that was kind of the The big piece. And then with my husband at the time was the at a yoga retreat where I was doing mainly the processing for my marriage. Honestly, that was a lot of what
Michael Sanders: Mm.
Brian Di Bartolomeo: the yoga retreats are for because the work stuff was crisp and clear that that wasn't going to continue.
Michael Sanders: Yeah.
Brian Di Bartolomeo: but I had the realization of stealing, stealing time from him, sealing the future from him,
Michael Sanders: Mm.
Brian Di Bartolomeo: sealing time for me, the my future for myself. By remaining in something in which we both couldn't be our best selves. That's as simply
Michael Sanders: Mm-hmm.
Brian Di Bartolomeo: put. And it was the that was my aha moment where I was like, Well,
Michael Sanders: Yeah.
Brian Di Bartolomeo: come on, Brian. Like you say and do all this stuff. You love him, you love yourself. It's actually better if you let go and move on, allow both of you to
Michael Sanders: Yeah.
Brian Di Bartolomeo: flourish that way. So those two things were months apart from each other.
Michael Sanders: Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. But that they're they're like pretty clear breaking point or a d decision moment times. There's the the
Brian Di Bartolomeo: Mm-hmm. Yes.
Michael Sanders: professional, I'm leaving my job, and then there's the personal, you know, deep kind of reckoning in your marriage. You know,
Brian Di Bartolomeo: Yeah. Yeah.
Michael Sanders: and right after these kind of breaking point moments, it really leads you to the the next phase of a life pivot phase number four, which is You know, you're in this in-between space, you're in this in-between here and there space. You know, so like these these breaking point moments aren't the end of your life pivot. And they're not even the beginning of your life pivot. They're really like the middle or end third of your life pivot where you're kind of like in active pivot mode now, right?
Brian Di Bartolomeo: Right.
Michael Sanders: You're like, you don't necessarily know everything you're going to do or where you're gonna end up, but you're like You know, you're thrashing about, you're
Brian Di Bartolomeo: Mm-hmm.
Michael Sanders: you're stirring the life stew, you're trying to figure it all out. and that in-between space can be, you know, kind of very alienating or lonely or disenchanting. yeah.
Brian Di Bartolomeo: Yeah. Vulnerable. You're a it's very vulnerable, I think, for people because you're you're giving up or you most likely have given up or are about to give up, but
Michael Sanders: Yeah.
Brian Di Bartolomeo: you know you're moving to something,
Michael Sanders: Mm-hmm.
Brian Di Bartolomeo: but you're releasing everything maybe that you've known. And that is
Michael Sanders: Yeah. Yeah.
Brian Di Bartolomeo: absolutely terrifying. And you don't know what's next. You don't know who
Michael Sanders: Yep. Yeah.
Brian Di Bartolomeo: you're gonna become.
Michael Sanders: Yeah. Yeah. And that you know what I think we identified, is that uncertainty is a crucial component of a life pivot. You're you're not gonna pivot
Brian Di Bartolomeo: Yeah. Yes.
Michael Sanders: without uncertainty. And really certainty about the future is an illusion. So if you're like, I'm saving all this money away to buy boat or I don't know. what it is, you know, all all of that stuff is no guarantee. Anyhow, your your the s perceived security of your current job is
Brian Di Bartolomeo: Mm-hmm.
Michael Sanders: an illusion too, because that could be taken away at any moment. So
Brian Di Bartolomeo: A million percent.
Michael Sanders: those are all, you know, the difficult things that I think people are gonna commonly experience when they're in this in-between phase. And then, you know, once you've kind of made some progress during all that stuff up, you've You know, you've had your breaking point moments, you know, you're actively pivoting, you don't know exactly what that looks like, but you're like, you're doing it, whatever it may be. You know, at some point you've made progress and you know, the journey doesn't end there, the pivot doesn't end there. You're kind of you've created a new identity for yourself, a new alignment of like what is important to you. And you
Brian Di Bartolomeo: Mm-hmm.
Michael Sanders: know, it's not a destination. Like we, you know, between here and there, there sounds like a destination, but it's really
Brian Di Bartolomeo: Right.
Michael Sanders: ongoing series of places you're gonna end up. You know, so you're kind of like constantly, or at least I am, I'm re routinely kind of questioning myself and I'm like, am I falling back to this old person I didn't want to be or habits of this old person I didn't want to be, or am I like fully embracing this. this new self of this new identity I've created for myself.
Brian Di Bartolomeo: Right.
Michael Sanders: Right. And I think maybe an example that a lot of people might be able to identify is, you know, if you've left that job, you've always wanted to leave and you're kind of building a new life. You know, but I get like LinkedIn emails about like this role might be great for you or whatever it
Brian Di Bartolomeo: Right. Yeah.
Michael Sanders: is. And I, you know, it's tempting. I'm like, it would be great to have like this predictable paycheck and you know, take some uncertainty out of my life. But I'm always like, nope, can't do it. You know, like I said, I've reached this phase in life where it's a joke. I don't mean it literally, but I consider myself to be unemployable.
Brian Di Bartolomeo: Uh-huh.
Michael Sanders: because I I don't know if I can do what would be required of me in in certain roles. I guess Brian, like how are from your own life story and even right now, 'cause like your life peppet story is still unfolding, you know, what are you doing to make sure you're staying on your path? You're not straying off that you're, you know, aligned with the best version of yourself possible.
Brian Di Bartolomeo: I think you know, we talked the previous stage is really the stew and
Michael Sanders: Yeah, so.
Brian Di Bartolomeo: vulnerable. This stage is we look at re-identification.
Michael Sanders: Mm-hmm.
Brian Di Bartolomeo: This is where it be you become a little lighter. You have hope,
Michael Sanders: Mm-hmm.
Brian Di Bartolomeo: you have excitement, you have maybe a forward direction. I'm not saying which direction that is, it's just forward. but at the same time, there's still vulnerabilities in here to use as you said.
Michael Sanders: Mm-hmm.
Brian Di Bartolomeo: Like you am I slipping back? Am I doing something that I shouldn't? Am I gonna take that job because it's comfortable for me? it right, yeah.
Michael Sanders: Yeah, right. Because it's certain, right? Yeah.
Brian Di Bartolomeo: I I think for me what I'm noticing is routine is a big part of something
Michael Sanders: Mm.
Brian Di Bartolomeo: that I need. So I have my kind of routine through the week, which involves my teaching schedule, a little bit of marketing work that I do for the studio, some things like
Michael Sanders: Mm-hmm.
Brian Di Bartolomeo: that. And and that is fulfilling me enough
Michael Sanders: Mm-hmm.
Brian Di Bartolomeo: at the same time while looking at what are the new things that I'm looking to achieve. Which is this is an example of one of those, is our work together is very meaningful to me as to where we're going.
Michael Sanders: Mm-hmm.
Brian Di Bartolomeo: And then I think the third one is is like, and I do this week by week. What are the things that are gonna bring me joy? And then
Michael Sanders: Mm.
Brian Di Bartolomeo: what are the what are my boundaries? And the boundaries is probably the big new one for me of saying no to things. So what I mean
Michael Sanders: Mm-hmm.
Brian Di Bartolomeo: is I'll I'll make plans for a few nights maybe, but I'm not gonna make plans for every night. And I'm not gonna make plans stacked
Michael Sanders: Mm-hmm.
Brian Di Bartolomeo: back to back. And I'm not gonna have meetings back to back. And that's that is new for me. Cause I would always say, Yeah, yes, I'm a yes man. Yes, I'll be there. Yes, I'll be there.
Michael Sanders: Mm-hmm.
Brian Di Bartolomeo: And even like friends in Chicago inviting me to things, normally I would drop everything and go. And now I look at my week and I'm like, I'm gonna be exhausted. I'm already
Michael Sanders: Yeah.
Brian Di Bartolomeo: Like I need sleep. I know what the next week looks like. I would love to drive into Chicago for the weekend and to have dinner with everyone, but that's not realistic. And it doesn't mean I don't love you any
Michael Sanders: Mm-hmm.
Brian Di Bartolomeo: differently or less. But for where I'm at right now, I can't do that to myself. So the the answer to that is putting me first, which is not
Michael Sanders: Mm-hmm.
Brian Di Bartolomeo: who I was as a caregiver, but that is when I'm honoring. As I proceed forward to ensure I have continued alignment and integration.
Michael Sanders: Yeah, and an another I think an important thing we noticed is, you know, to maintain this alignment, your definition of success changes. Right? I I know from your story, your definition of success changed to simply I don't think about success and I I just ask myself if I'm happy now or not. And if I'm happy or content. I mean, let's
Brian Di Bartolomeo: Yeah. Yeah.
Michael Sanders: be real, you're you're not ha happy twenty-four hours a day, seven days a week.
Brian Di Bartolomeo: You are not. You are not.
Michael Sanders: you know, but have you found some sense of inner peace, inner contentment,
Brian Di Bartolomeo: Mm-hmm.
Michael Sanders: you know, then I think you are aligned with your life pivot and the better version of yourself. So, Brian, final question from this debrief of my story and your own. I guess what is the most profound lesson learned that you glean from those stories?
Brian Di Bartolomeo: I I'm gonna use the word progress or
Michael Sanders: Mm.
Brian Di Bartolomeo: progression. You can use either one of those
Michael Sanders: Mm-hmm.
Brian Di Bartolomeo: words. And what I mean by that is what you saw with both of our stories was this movement forward. Doesn't mean
Michael Sanders: Mm-hmm.
Brian Di Bartolomeo: we didn't slip back, but we continued moving forward. Often we were at the in between, between here and there, and we stayed
Michael Sanders: Mm-hmm.
Brian Di Bartolomeo: there for different durations of time. But then we progress forward. And
Michael Sanders: Yeah.
Brian Di Bartolomeo: if we really dug in, I think we would see teeny tiny, I know for me, we would see teeny, tiny, little, little, little baby steps, little teeny baby
Michael Sanders: Mm-hmm.
Brian Di Bartolomeo: steps that to an outsider wouldn't look like anything to anyone.
Michael Sanders: Yeah.
Brian Di Bartolomeo: But when you're in it, you're like, wow, that was a big next step.
Michael Sanders: Yeah. Yeah. I think that's a a great thing to or a great lesson to point out to our listeners is, you know, I really don't want folks to get frustrated in that feeling of like, I'm not doing enough. I'm not pre making progress quickly enough, whatever it might be. You know, again, there's no timeline on a life pivot. It's just are you working on it or are you not working on it? If you're even making the most incremental progress, I really think you're headed in the right direction.
Brian Di Bartolomeo: Mm-hmm.
Michael Sanders: So, you know, I think it's time to sign off. You know, I wanted to thank everybody for joining us for another episode of Between Here and There. And really, we would love to hear from folks. you know, we talked a lot about the phases of going through a life pivot or the common threads of experiencing a life pivot. do those resonate with anyone listening? does anyone listening to us now think they're going through some sort of pivot or on the precipice of a pivot right now? If so, what phase do you think you're in? is it one of the phases that we mentioned or do you feel like you're in a different space? so you know, thanks again for listening, thanks for watching. Make sure to follow us on all the social socials, Facebook, Instagram, and we will all be talking together again soon.
Brian Di Bartolomeo: Perfect. Thanks, Michael.
