WEBVTT
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I'm Commissioner Christian Leinbach, and I want to welcome you to another edition of County Connection.
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We have a very boring topic today that no one is going to be interested in, data centers.
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If there is any topic that I've heard more talk, more debate, and a lot of misinformation about over the last year or so, it has to be data centers.
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Well, we have an excellent panel here today to talk about it.
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We're not going to be taking positions for or against, but rather explaining what they are, uh what they're not, and how important it is for municipalities and counties, quite frankly, to get in front of this issue.
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So let me start by introducing our guest.
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I want to start uh with Ashley Showers.
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She is the executive director of the Berks County Planning Commission.
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Welcome, Ashley.
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Thank you, Commissioner.
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We then have uh Dean Druckenmiller.
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Dean is the executive director of the Berks County Conservation District.
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Welcome, Dean.
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Yes, thank you, Commissioner.
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Thanks for having me.
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Then Joan London.
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Uh Joan is an attorney and shareholder with Kozlov Stout.
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Uh she has a number of specialty areas, but two of them that are really important today are municipal law and zoning law.
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So thank you for joining us uh on the program today.
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I think we need to start, not necessarily at the very beginning, but uh with some key dates and then talk about what data centers are and what they are not, or better yet, the different types of data centers, because data centers are not new.
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But here are the three major dates.
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The middle one is really a range of dates.
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Prior to 9-11, which we just celebrated the 25th anniversary of that tragic event, uh companies with computers knew that they needed to back up.
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They couldn't rely on people having stuff on their hard drive of the desktop.
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Uh they backed them up in server rooms in most cases, somewhere in their business.
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Unfortunately, one of the lessons learned in 9-11 is if there's a catastrophic event that takes out your entire facility, your backup is gone.
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And so right after 9-11, there was a major effort uh building data centers primarily for the purpose of back office uh finances, email, files, etc.
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A great example of that is DirectLink up at the Reading Regional Airport.
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Uh for those that have been around long enough, it was the old GPU Med building, and they have a data center uh that's below ground uh there, and it's that basically that type of data center.
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The second uh area uh or timeline is really from about 2006 to 2012, uh people began to hear about the cloud or cloud computing.
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And the idea here uh was that either from a business standpoint uh or some models that came out uh existed not on your servers in your business or at your home, but existed in a data center.
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And so in 2006, uh AWS uh started uh their services uh and they had their own data centers.
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Again, this is not what we're talking about in the larger sense.
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Dropbox 2007-2008, again, an online file.
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You didn't have to store the whole idea, especially for videos and larger files, you could file them there, share the access uh with multiple uh individuals.
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iCloud, Apple iCloud came about in 2011, and Google Drive in 2012.
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In addition to that, many different products started to move their uh hosting of the program from the business to the cloud, whether it was Microsoft or any number of other uh products.
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The third area took place in November of 2022 with the launch of Chat GPT.
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Uh better way to look at this is generative AI.
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Uh machine learning, AI, is not new, it's been around a long time, but the idea of supercomputing that is able to take tremendous amounts of information and very quickly collate it and provide it back uh to the end user, that's what this was, and is, and it is a booming industry, and it's what's driving uh the data center explosion that we see today.
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Real quickly, there are several different types of data centers.
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And the first is an enterprise data center.
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These are privately built, they're owned, they're operated normally by a single uh entity, and they're normally for internal use.
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You go back to the model we talked about 9-11.
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It would be a company that's large enough to say we don't want on-site backup, we need off-site, but we want to own that outright.
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Uh we need we need to have total control uh over that.
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So government agencies in some cases are doing that, some banks are doing it, hospitals where there's very, very strict security needs and they need to have their own uh area.
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The second type are co-location data centers, and these are third-party uh facilities, much like direct link, where you can uh simply lease space, lease uh and by space not necessarily square footage, although it could come down to square footage, but you're leasing data space based on what your company needs are.
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Uh DirectLink, again, is a great uh a great example.
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Uh the third, and this is what we are focused on, they're often referred to as supercomputing data centers or hyperscale.
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These are enormous.
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They typically are at least 10,000 square feet, and in many cases can be hundreds of thousands of square feet in size.
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Uh they're owned largely by tech giants, AWS, Microsoft, Google, Meta, and others.
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In some cases, they may be built speculative.
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Uh the one tour that I did uh is an entire campus uh up in Berwick, and that's all AWS, uh, and it's right next to uh a nuclear uh power uh plant.
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The one other type that I just want to touch on are called edge data centers.
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They're small, they're localized, they're positioned physically close to the end user, uh, and they it it is it's typically for smaller business or entity, but again, is separate but very, very close.
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The idea is it could be a building 50 feet away, uh, and they tend not to be that large.
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Our focus is on the hyper data centers or the supercomputing.
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And one of the things I think will help our listeners understand why we're talking about that, if you think back when did we start talking about data centers in the last two to three years.
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It it traces right back to November of 2022, chat open AI, and multiple ones since then.
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Groc, uh if you look at Google has Gemini, uh Microsoft uh Copilot, uh Anthropic has Claude, and uh there are multiple others uh that are out there.
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And I think that's a very good point, Christian, because uh for a very long time the data centers operated under the radar.
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Nobody they thought of them as maybe a small server farm that was accessory to a business.
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We would consider it an accessory use uh in land use terminology, and then uh it became a use in and of itself, and with heightened awareness because of the debate over warehouses, particularly in counties along interstate corridors like Burks County, that's when you saw the discussion start, is when they were in larger buildings, similar similar to the warehouses, only larger.
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Yeah, uh when you look at that, it it's very easy for people to get some of the information.
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And I think in the beginning, what people began to hear is this is more than just a warehouse.
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Because let's be honest, warehouses uh were the bad thing for quite some time.
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I'm not saying they've turned and become the thing that people want, but I've actually heard people say I'd rather have a warehouse than a data center.
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And I get that because now you're looking at completely different impacts with the warehouse.
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What was the big thing?
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It was trucks coming.
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And it was traffic and no it was traffic and noise, but now the concern is the water and power usage.
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There's very little truck traffic.
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And when you first heard about data centers, it was well, there's no truck traffic.
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What's the downside?
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And then then you heard stories out of Texas and out of Northern Virginia about the water supply, wells, and power.
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Now we'll we'll talk about it later, I'm sure.
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Sound vibration vibration.
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Yep.
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And that was the early days of it, but uh it's it's still out there as a as a big concern, and that's where our ordinances come in to abate those problems.
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And you mentioned uh Virginia.
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I know uh a couple of the uh commissioners uh in actually I believe their supervisors, uh Mike and uh Phyllis Randall's one I've known for a number of years.
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They actually trace their data center development back to the founding of AOL.
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So even there, I early on made the mistake of saying Loudoun County, Virginia is the data center capital of the world.
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Now it is, but we have to be cautious that those data centers are not all the uh supercomputing data centers.
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They literally go back to AOL.
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AOL uh kind of settled in that spot and uh never left and is still around.
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Uh so this brings up, I think, an important issue.
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We saw this in the county, uh all each of you probably from a little bit different perspective.
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Uh we saw it from discussions we had, uh discussions in the planning community, uh talking to communities that uh had other challenges.
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Uh you saw it from the standpoint as people started showing up at supervisors meetings or commissioners in our uh second-class, uh, first class townships.
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And permitting, I don't know, we've you haven't done any permitting yet uh for a data center in Burks, a hyperscale data center.
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Yeah, not yet.
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Not yet.
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There's there's plans, but but you're you're aware of other ones in the state through your colleagues.
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Uh you've been involved in the ordinance standpoint.
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Ashley, if you could talk to us, the county, I don't want to say we were in front of the curve, but we were ahead and still are ahead of where many counties are when it comes to addressing this and helping our municipalities uh understand what this is and what they can do and what they should do.
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Yes, so as you said, you know, even starting way back in 2022, you know, four years ago, the planning association for planners um is always training and sticking with the emerging land uses and impacts of what they will be.
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And so with that came a lot of research, a lot of webinars, um discussing about the impacts of these hyperscale facilities.
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And so, in doing that, and and our role as a county of being a support system for our local municipalities, we created um in April of this year our planning advice for data centers, which which we could probably pop up onto the screen.
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Um, there's a link there, um, and also an image of the data advice, but really giving our municipalities the first outline of here's what you need to discuss and plan for and what you should consider when you're planning for them.
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And what why don't you take us through this?
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We have time.
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This is a longer uh show.
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I think that this information is so important, not just what you provided, but talk a little bit about uh the research you did and your team did before you put out the document and uh how people can not only access the document, but access a lot of your sources of uh research.
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Yes, thank you.
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Um so you can find this.
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Um the link is on the screen there, but it you can find it on the Planning Commission's main webpage under planning advice.
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You if you scroll down from our main page, there will be a card there that says planning advice, and then you would look for the data center advice.
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But this really provided our municipalities, again, um 20 recommendations to consider.
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And so we have things about one talking about addressing it on a comprehensive planning level process, um, and then getting into the zoning.
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But if they chose to go with just their zoning and allowing that, we talked about things about overlay zonings.
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Uh zoning.
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Because these are kind of the big steps, and then we can uh get into some of the detail uh with what your recommendations are.
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Okay.
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Um so again, you want being proactive, that's the first thing.
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So plan before proposals arrive.
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And really there's mechanisms in place.
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Joan could probably talk to that end, but really you want to plan before proposals arrive.
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So let's touch on that, the legal side of that.
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Why is that important?
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Well, why can't we just say uh we'll deal with it when it when it arrives, or better yet, let's make them illegal.
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There there are there are two problems with that.
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Number one, uh a municipality under decisions of Pennsylvania courts and under the municipality's planning code, which is the statute under which uh all land use ordinances are written and decisions made, requires that a municipality uh provide for every lawful land use, or that a comprehensive plan area, a joint comprehensive plan area, if the zoning ordinances are uh consistent with each other, or a joint zoning ordinance area, that there be an area where every use is reasonably provided for.
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And the problem is that if you don't have a lawful use provided for and someone comes in with a plan, there is a possibility that your ordinance is deemed to exclude the use, and then a court can award what's called site-specific relief, and that is that the uh the court can decide that the location where the owner or developer wants to put the use, could be the data center, is an appropriate location for it, and uh they will get they will get their use, and there won't be any regulations in place for it, because that's an important part of what zoning and zoning ordinances do.
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The old saying is uh and it was from the uh Supreme Court decision that uh that enabled zoning, is you don't want the pig in the parlor.
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And uh it was um the Euclid, Euclid decision uh from the early 20th century.
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And this it puts every use in their place where it belongs.
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For example, with data centers, very often that will be uh a district where industrial uses are allowed, such as uh warehouse uses.
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Uh often you will find that uh data centers are proposed for industrial areas where industry hasn't been there for quite some time and there's an abandoned industrial.
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Perfect Fort Brownfields is is another example of that.
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Uh but it allows for regulations that can uh make that can mitigate some of the more negative effects you were talking about, sound and vibration, allows for setbacks, requires buffering, requires noise canceling equipment, all of those things can be provided for.
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But if you don't have an ordinance on the books, there's no regulation for it, and it's the developer will be able to put in whatever, you know, what the the use however they want it.
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So you have to be able to put have reasonable regulation.
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The other side of exclusionary zoning is if you have an ordinance, but it is so strict that it keeps the use out.
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Maybe it maybe it theoretically allows data centers, but the lot size is impossible or the restrictions make it impossible.
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And the courts in those cases can overrule those ordinances as exclusionary, either de facto exclusionary or exclusionary because it it actively keeps it, prohibits the use everywhere.
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So that's where that's where our land use ordinances come in.
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Yeah, and there are many municipalities in Burks already working on them.
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Several have already passed their ordinances.
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And I would just say to the public, uh it's important for them to understand their municipality, at least in addressing it with an ordinance, they're doing the right thing.
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Now, what the ordinance says is also important.
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So you want an ordinance in place before the data center is being uh proposed.
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Talk about location.
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Right.
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And and and I think Joan touched on that as well of think about your location again, primarily industrial zoned areas, but maybe again lease impact, who the receptors will be, the the the adjacent land uses around it.
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Again, also looking at infrastructure, that's critical.
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What infrastructure is there?
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Sewer, water, electric primarily, maybe natural gas.
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Yes.
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Um location is key, access to, even thinking about in into the weeds a little bit about emergency access, again, with the type of infrastructure that's going to be built there and housed there, emergency service access to that uh is important to consider as well.
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And Dean, from a conservation district standpoint, you're focused very much on erosion, sediment control.
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Location that Ashley's talking about is particular zoning area, considering what's around that.
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What aspects of location are important to the conservation district?
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Well, we're we're concerned with obviously water resources, uh, and if a data center is located to an exceptional value stream, high quality value stream, or wetland or things like that, that's where we take a little harder look at uh these these development projects in the county.
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And you come into play with the permitting.
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Just briefly explain the kind of permitting that comes into place because a township or a municipality may have a grade ordinance in place, and within that ordinance it's allowed in certain places, or we just had a municipality literally carve and say this place only.
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Uh what are you again are you looking at when that developer comes in and says, We we need your approval?
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What is that approval?
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Yeah, so just a step back, uh the conservation district is delegated by the Pennsylvania Department of Environmental Protection to review all uh new construction stormwater permits uh for you know land development projects in throughout the county.
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So when when a permit comes Comes in to us, we're looking at it from uh during the construction phase, we're mostly looking at it from uh erosion sediment control aspect uh to make sure that there are best management practices in place to capture the water runoff during the construction project, and so that it's not discharged into our streams and our wetlands here in Berks County.
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And like we said, a project doesn't come to you until it's first gone uh to the township, and it's part of the overall permitting uh process.
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One other item on location, uh, and we talk briefly, but I want to emphasize the best location is a brownfield site where infrastructure already exists, where there's the ability to take a site, and I'm gonna give two examples in Berks County.
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NGK over in Muhlenburg Township, former beryllium facility, a lot of issues.
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It's been cleaned up to a certain uh level, uh, but you can bring a data center in at a location like that.
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You're not really coming up against much in the way of residential.
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Uh pretty, I mean you have a cemetery on one side surrounded by uh streets on uh four sides and some commercial uh activity, but you now get that cleaned up to even a greater uh standard, and you have arguably your utilities there.
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Titus Station is the other one.
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Uh Titus Station was a power plant uh up until maybe 10, 12 years ago, somewhere in there when it was uh shut down because it was no longer efficient.
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Uh that is important.
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Uh most people don't want to see any type of industrial work in the middle of a farm, in the middle of a township where all you might have is a township road.
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You don't have the sewer, you don't have the water, you don't have uh the the uh scope of electric power available.
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So that's another aspect of location as a township uh looks at that.
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And it's also better for the data center developer itself, too, because if they don't have those resources, if they don't have the water, the power in particular, or the sewer, they have to extend all of those all of those items to the site.
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And many ordinances that's one of the key points of the ordinance is you must bring your own water to the site.
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You must be connected to the public sewer, and you must have sufficient power because we want to mitigate those potential impacts on our power, our power rates, and our water for our community residents.
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And that's the third point here.
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Determine how resources are protected for the future.
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Talk about that, Ashley.
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Um so again, it it all plays into all you can see the pieces here of the ordinance.
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Um, but again, thinking about how if there's not enough um water and soar resources there, how is that going to impact in the future?
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How does that impact the community?
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Um, you're also talking about though your water resources, your woodlands, your steep slopes, all of that, the ecosystem resources that we want to pay attention to and address as we're developing the ordinances.
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And really the responsibility also is part of this.
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This responsibility for power uh in our uh recommendations, but in virtually any of the good uh ordinances out there, rest of the country, most of these are county-level ordinances, here they're municipal, require the data center to either provide its own power, and we're probably three to five years away from on-site uh mini-nuclear generation.
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Uh and I that's controversial with some people, uh, not with me.
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Uh I think that makes a whole lot of sense.
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But in the interim, they have to prove and have from the local power company uh documentation that they have the power available without impacting in any way other commercial or residential property owners.
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So you can't come in and the and the power company is saying everybody's rates are going up because XYZ Data Center is uh needs this, or water rates are going up because XYD, XYZ Data Center uh needs these resources.
00:26:51.519 --> 00:27:08.079
You gotta you have we have to determine what the resources are that need to be protected, and the responsibility, enforcement is the responsibility of government, but the responsibility of the payfor has to be the data center.
00:27:08.400 --> 00:27:39.599
And one of one of the key points uh that many municipalities have in their ordinances, and I believe that Penn Futures has in the model ordinance that many uh many residents and advocacy groups and township uh officials have seen, and municipal officials have seen, is not only does the uh data center developer in the application process have to provide the will serve letter for power uh in particular, also also for water, but that that's another issue.
00:27:39.759 --> 00:27:58.240
Uh but they have to have a study, uh, an actual impact study at the phase of a land use approval to show, signed and sealed by a qualified engineer whose license is on the line, uh, to show that it's not going to affect power rates.
00:27:58.400 --> 00:28:08.400
And uh same with same with water, uh, although some of the newer data centers are less likely to use as much water because of different types of cooling systems that recycle.
00:28:08.799 --> 00:28:09.119
Right.
00:28:09.200 --> 00:28:11.200
And we'll we'll get into that.
00:28:11.279 --> 00:28:24.960
Uh let's touch a little bit on uh when we look at the building itself, how it's being uh not the building, but the functionality.
00:28:25.200 --> 00:28:27.839
Water has been mentioned several times.
00:28:28.079 --> 00:28:34.960
Water's probably the biggest thing that the conservation district deals with.
00:28:35.359 --> 00:28:42.160
Because we live in the Northeast United States, we're largely spoiled when it comes to water.
00:28:42.400 --> 00:28:48.880
We have a drought now and then, a drought to us, uh, you know, we we got a burn ban.
00:28:48.960 --> 00:28:51.200
If it's really bad, we get a burn ban.
00:28:51.359 --> 00:28:57.279
And if it's really bad during the summer, uh farmers get hit with it.
00:28:57.599 --> 00:29:10.880
But most of the country has a water shortage, and when you get to the west and southwest, uh there are questions about certain industries surviving long term because of the lack of water.
00:29:10.960 --> 00:29:20.240
As a result, many, and I believe a vast majority of the newer data center proposals coming through are not water-cooled.
00:29:20.480 --> 00:29:26.880
They are air-cooled, uh, which leads to sound and vibration issues, these huge fans.
00:29:27.279 --> 00:29:32.640
But where they are water-cooled, our recommendation is a closed loop.
00:29:32.960 --> 00:29:33.519
Closed loop system.
00:29:33.839 --> 00:29:40.640
Closed loop system, yeah, which uh makes a big difference on your end of the picture.
00:29:40.799 --> 00:29:45.519
If you want to talk a little bit how that changes the way you look at it from the district.
00:29:45.920 --> 00:29:56.480
Yeah, that that those that's huge if they can, you know, do a closed loop system because they're not extracting water from the ground or from streams or lakes, things like that.
00:29:56.720 --> 00:30:06.240
You know, Pennsylvania is water rich, and that's one of the why some of the reasons why they're attracted to Pennsylvania is because of our water resources.
00:30:06.480 --> 00:30:15.200
So if they can, you know, have a closed loop system, that is much less of a demand on our water resources here.
00:30:15.519 --> 00:30:19.039
We've took talked a lot about the infrastructure.
00:30:19.119 --> 00:30:23.119
Let's talk a little bit about managing the community impacts.
00:30:23.279 --> 00:30:30.319
We've all touched on it, but could you look at the ordinance and just share some of the types of things?
00:30:30.480 --> 00:30:43.039
We talked just briefly about buffers, but buffers, buffers can be distances, buffers can be physical uh buffers, uh buffers can be architectural requirements.
00:30:43.200 --> 00:31:02.000
Some of the newest data centers have uh uh new architectural designs along the roof, a parapet that drives the sound back into the building roof area versus just a flat roof with a lot a lot of uh fans.
00:31:02.160 --> 00:31:03.440
Can you talk about that, Ashley?
00:31:04.319 --> 00:31:23.759
So yeah, again, different mechanisms for as they design these buildings, like so you do have buffers, but even the way the building's designed, even talking about like again, using if it's gonna be a massive structure, you know, a hundred plus thousand square feet uh square foot building, um, what can they do?
00:31:23.839 --> 00:31:26.559
So like mitigating heat island effect, right?
00:31:26.720 --> 00:31:27.920
Heating, heating measures.
00:31:28.079 --> 00:31:29.759
How are how can they do that?
00:31:29.920 --> 00:31:39.359
Um, you know, uh you can also uh talk about um you know, renewable energy to the extent possible.
00:31:39.519 --> 00:31:45.359
Can you put solar panels on top of the facility to help some of generate some of that energy?
00:31:45.519 --> 00:31:50.640
And again, won't impact the entire community infrastructure for electric.
00:31:50.960 --> 00:32:05.759
Um again, looking at lighting even and and things of those mechanisms, what is the standard for that and what what has been established for those zones and making sure, you know, again, these are secured facilities most often than not.
00:32:05.920 --> 00:32:10.079
So, what will be the impacts of of lighting of the facility?
00:32:10.319 --> 00:32:19.680
Um but talking also too about the community impacts of the use and what it will bring.
00:32:19.759 --> 00:32:22.640
You talked uh we talked about traffic in warehouses, right?
00:32:23.119 --> 00:32:25.680
Data centers don't necessarily generate traffic.
00:32:26.240 --> 00:32:27.519
They don't even have truck docks.
00:32:28.960 --> 00:32:29.119
Right.
00:32:29.359 --> 00:32:39.200
Uh so so there's things things like that where it's like, okay, you know, you you're mitigating that part of the infrastructure of the roads for the community.
00:32:39.359 --> 00:32:50.079
Um but again, more looking at those natural resource impacts, but also to inf the the water and soar impacts and the electric and natural gas, all of that.
00:32:50.640 --> 00:33:01.119
And even the from the location, uh I highlighted brownfields in large part because people don't, as a rule, live next to brownfields.
00:33:01.279 --> 00:33:09.519
Uh people in Lauraldale might argue with me, the old X side building is still there, the county is still engaged with EPA on that.
00:33:09.599 --> 00:33:29.680
Uh but generally speaking, uh when we talk about the impacts, we're trying to look at every potential impact and saying how do we either eliminate that issue or significantly control that issue through an ordinance.
00:33:29.839 --> 00:33:33.119
Uh the last area on the list, long-term accountability.
00:33:33.359 --> 00:33:33.759
Mm-hmm.
00:33:34.079 --> 00:33:45.440
So, and this comes into, I know that some of the other ordinances that we've seen for review at the County Planning Commission level um have talked about different um pre-construction impact studies.
00:33:45.599 --> 00:33:54.559
So, again, looking at noise, looking at um vibration, um there's long-term monitoring that could be uh required.
00:33:54.720 --> 00:34:05.920
And you said I'm sure Dean can speak to monitoring as far as water resources, like monitoring uh groundwater wells and aquifer, uh also surface water.
00:34:06.160 --> 00:34:21.280
So those are long-term kind of accountability things that municipalities can consider both prior to the pro you know, prior to the project being constructed, but then working into their ordinance language of after that building's there and what that will look at.
00:34:21.679 --> 00:34:21.920
Right.
00:34:22.000 --> 00:34:49.039
And in ordinances that uh I have seen and worked with, for example, with the issue of noise, there's required to be a noise impact study during the uh the zoning process, the conditional use or special exception process, and uh one also after it's been in operation, a noise study to ensure that it's not exceeding the requirements.
00:34:49.119 --> 00:35:10.159
And and one area where ordinances can can be the most helpful and can most mitigate the impacts is by having quantifiable standards, a certain number of decibels uh that can be heard at the property line and no more, uh, that takes into account uh the area where it's in what's called ambient noise.
00:35:10.320 --> 00:35:19.440
You're going to have a different uh standard uh next to an interstate highway as opposed to in a more quiet rural area.
00:35:19.679 --> 00:35:23.280
Uh and are they meeting that quantifiable standard?
00:35:23.360 --> 00:35:27.920
Both are they able to with the impact study based on equipment that they use?
00:35:28.079 --> 00:35:30.000
Are they using noise canceling equipment?
00:35:30.079 --> 00:35:32.079
Are they using landscape buffering?
00:35:32.320 --> 00:35:35.440
Certain natural buffering is noise absorbent.
00:35:35.519 --> 00:35:40.960
There are sound barriers similar to what you see along highways that can be that can be used.
00:35:41.280 --> 00:35:44.320
So there noise is just one example of this.
00:35:44.719 --> 00:35:46.159
So, what about vibrations?
00:35:46.320 --> 00:35:52.559
Um, I'm familiar with a case in Loudon County, Virginia a couple of years ago.
00:35:52.719 --> 00:36:03.760
Uh with the new switch from water cooling to air cooling, it wasn't just a sound issue, it became a vibration issue.
00:36:04.000 --> 00:36:19.920
And because they had standards on vibration in their ordinance when the plant uh data center started up, they had a town two miles away where people could feel the vibrations.
00:36:20.079 --> 00:36:33.760
They were able to shut the operation down immediately and force them to put in new a new fan system that uh dramatically lowered uh the vibrations.
00:36:34.079 --> 00:36:45.039
There's an example, if you don't know that from some other example, you potentially miss that and you've got uh a rough situation on your hands.
00:36:45.679 --> 00:36:47.280
Long-term accountability.
00:36:47.440 --> 00:36:59.199
There's another issue, and I know I was one that brought this up early this year to uh our planning uh commission, and I've had this discussion at the national level.
00:37:00.480 --> 00:37:09.760
There's two concerns that I have about uh the types of structures that are going up.
00:37:10.480 --> 00:37:17.920
While a lot of people don't like warehouses, warehouses can be adapted to a lot of different uses.
00:37:18.159 --> 00:37:26.239
On 61 Leesport, there it's not a huge warehouse, but uh I believe it was a moving and storage, it's now a church.
00:37:26.400 --> 00:37:29.599
Uh very easily was retrofitted to a church.
00:37:29.920 --> 00:37:40.960
Data centers are designed for one purpose, uh and they're not easily uh adapted to some other use.
00:37:41.119 --> 00:37:44.000
So the issue of decommissioning comes into place.
00:37:44.239 --> 00:37:46.639
And I think it comes in two flavors.
00:37:47.199 --> 00:37:59.599
One, and this is my personal belief, uh I remember talking about the changes in financial rules for tech companies at the end of the last century.
00:37:59.840 --> 00:38:09.679
People began to finally say around 1999, well, I guess it isn't about whether you're making money or not, it's your stock value.
00:38:09.920 --> 00:38:24.559
And those I think all of us are old enough to remember, maybe not actually, but uh that there were companies that their stock was worth several times any kind of assets that they had.
00:38:25.199 --> 00:38:36.159
And about the time people believed the rules had changed, and that was okay, March of 2001 came and we had the tech bubble burst.
00:38:36.639 --> 00:38:42.000
I believe there's a possibility for the same thing to happen with generative AI.
00:38:42.320 --> 00:38:57.920
Uh, everyone is jumping on the AI, and again, generative AI bandwagon, and there are there are even more companies that are utilizing the services of these major AIs as the backbone for something new.
00:38:58.719 --> 00:39:18.960
How do we deal with decommissioning in the case where a company goes bankrupt uh that owns a building, or decommissioning in that 20 years, 30 years from now, there's a completely different model that no longer requires a data center.
00:39:19.920 --> 00:39:20.400
Right.
00:39:20.639 --> 00:39:37.199
So we do talk about in our planning advice um to our municipalities about discussing decommissioning, and I will tell you that decommissioning is kind of um a question amongst the planning community of is it necessary for these facilities?
00:39:37.360 --> 00:39:45.840
Because we've also seen decommissioning for other um large land use impacts like solar array farms and and and things of that.
00:39:46.159 --> 00:39:57.039
So um, but we we do recommend it and and what we do want it's more to think about again the safe shutdown of of the equipment and the removal of that equipment.
00:39:57.199 --> 00:40:03.440
Again, there's um you're talking as we know, we we do have an electronic waste collection here in Berks County.
00:40:03.519 --> 00:40:04.800
We're fortunate to have that.
00:40:05.119 --> 00:40:19.519
But there are other waste materials for this specific use that shouldn't be the responsibility of the community, the municipalities exactly to take care of when and if that use is forfeited.
00:40:19.679 --> 00:40:24.239
Um and so we talk about that again, recycling of those materials.
00:40:24.559 --> 00:40:31.039
Also talking about site restoration and thinking about the you know best management practices for stormwater and water.
00:40:31.199 --> 00:40:41.440
How can we reclaim some of that and how can we have that that that owner be responsible for that um besides being added to a brownfield list at some point?
00:40:41.679 --> 00:40:45.280
Um so yeah, that's been mentioned and discussed.
00:40:45.679 --> 00:41:00.239
Yeah, we uh in our in ordinances uh we have in place uh financial security requirements where bonds or a letter of credit is put in place for uh a hundred percent of the amount of decommissioning at present value.
00:41:00.480 --> 00:41:06.559
And in in one ordinance that I've worked with, it is uh re-evaluated every five years.
00:41:06.880 --> 00:41:08.159
That's a great idea, really.
00:41:08.559 --> 00:41:18.880
And it uses uh a technical publication, the engine engineering news record, to determine uh what is the appropriate amount to be placed for decommissioning.
00:41:19.039 --> 00:41:25.119
Uh, because it this isn't this isn't the first use or the only use where there are decommissioning requirements.
00:41:25.280 --> 00:41:35.039
In the late 90s, we used them for cell towers for the fear that we would they would be abandoned as technology changed and the municipality would be left to take them down.
00:41:35.760 --> 00:41:51.840
Uh in with uh some solar farms they're used to make sure that the surface is reclaimed because lots of times that is agricultural land and it uh should be reclaimed if if possible as as agricultural land to make sure that the panels are are removed.
00:41:52.320 --> 00:42:09.440
And with data centers, it is important that because these are such spec so specialized that uh it's not flex space and it it needs to be able to be uh to be demolished safely, components removed, and there are also uh materials.
00:42:09.599 --> 00:42:18.400
Some of the water that's used for the closed loop system contains uh coolants, glycol-based coolants that need to be uh need some special handling.
00:42:18.719 --> 00:42:32.719
Uh so there it's for the protection of the public, not just the aesthetics, but also uh also the safety of the public uh in some cases to have decommissioning financial security in place and have it within the ordinance.
00:42:33.840 --> 00:42:39.519
So people go on to the website, uh the these are the core outlines.
00:42:39.679 --> 00:42:47.280
If you could uh take us a little bit into the document where they get that and how they might utilize it.
00:42:47.360 --> 00:42:53.440
Uh first of all, you sent this almost immediately, I believe, in April to all the municipalities.
00:42:53.840 --> 00:42:54.559
Yes, that's correct.
00:42:54.719 --> 00:43:05.360
So, yes, this is shared, uh was shared with all the municipalities when we do our required municipal planning codes review of all the ordinances.
00:43:05.519 --> 00:43:09.519
We have been referencing this if we haven't seen it in what has been prepared.
00:43:09.679 --> 00:43:18.639
Um, as Joan just pointed out about the decommissioning costs being reviewed every five years, that actually was on our advice for um the municipalities.
00:43:18.880 --> 00:43:25.599
So this is housed again on the Planning Commission's uh website under our planning advice uh page.
00:43:25.920 --> 00:43:36.000
And on that page, besides just you're able to download the PDF of the actual planning advice document, you also have the resources that we use.
00:43:38.079 --> 00:43:41.519
We're not talking about two or three websites.
00:43:41.840 --> 00:43:48.239
There are maybe twenty or more links, and you've broken them out into different categories.
00:43:48.719 --> 00:43:49.440
Yes, yes.
00:43:49.599 --> 00:44:07.599
So we have um I don't have the web page right in front of me, but um we've broken it down of like again some state local references, some out of state references again, talking about Maryland and Northern Virginia and slides that have been taken from different presentations that we've attended.
00:44:09.039 --> 00:44:13.360
But yes, that is all of that is there, and we will be regularly updating that.
00:44:13.519 --> 00:44:22.719
I don't think I know one thing like we want to make sure that we have the governor's grid standards, but then also like a reference to the governor's executive order about data centers.
00:44:22.960 --> 00:44:23.760
So yes.
00:44:24.239 --> 00:44:26.239
So I I have that in front of me.
00:44:26.400 --> 00:44:39.599
Uh the the first category, and I won't read through all of them, are probably 10 or more links that are Pennsylvania county resources, documents, uh websites, et cetera.
00:44:40.159 --> 00:44:46.480
Then you have uh another section of Pennsylvania municipality resources.
00:44:47.119 --> 00:44:48.639
I I should point this out.
00:44:48.800 --> 00:44:54.079
In most cases, the ordinance itself will reside with the municipality.
00:44:54.480 --> 00:45:04.719
The rare exceptions would be in some of our more rural areas where there's an unincorporated municipality, and then the county in Pennsylvania is doing that work.
00:45:05.199 --> 00:45:09.280
There's also Pennsylvania State Resources, again, a number of links.
00:45:09.519 --> 00:45:12.480
You have links to Loudoun County, Virginia.
00:45:12.800 --> 00:45:17.119
Uh again, I do not want to become Loudoun County, Virginia.
00:45:17.360 --> 00:45:31.679
I've heard them talk uh extensively about the tax uh benefit for the rest of their residents and uh uh entities paying property tax, that's great, but I don't want to be the data center capital of the world.
00:45:31.840 --> 00:45:49.679
Uh we also have the American Planning Association resources, and then Penn State University has a website, Villanova University has a website, and then there are a number of environmental uh resources that are also uh listed.
00:45:50.400 --> 00:45:58.960
One of the things that I come back to uh is what we said at the beginning, and I'm gonna ask Dean to weigh in on this.
00:45:59.360 --> 00:46:13.679
Uh the utility-grade solar industry was ahead of the planning with municipalities in Pennsylvania.
00:46:15.039 --> 00:46:29.199
One of the messages, and and probably the key message I want to say to the public in Berks County, your municipality needs a good enforceable data center ordinance.
00:46:29.519 --> 00:46:39.199
To not have that in place, you're negotiating from a position of weakness and may end up with a lot of different problems.
00:46:39.440 --> 00:46:59.119
We don't need to uh identify the site, but there is a utility-grade solar uh operation up and running that uh really didn't follow best practices, created some serious issues for their neighbors.
00:46:59.280 --> 00:47:04.960
Uh it does appear, and I literally went past it on uh Saturday.
00:47:05.039 --> 00:47:09.679
Uh I was out at East Bend Manufacturing, and it looks great now.
00:47:10.639 --> 00:47:21.280
But during construction and even a couple years after construction, it still had not uh met the permitting requirements.
00:47:21.440 --> 00:47:31.280
Just explain how does that happen and help everyone understand why it's so important to get this stuff established up front, the ordinances.
00:47:31.760 --> 00:47:41.119
Yeah, well the solar project you're talking about and even data centers disturb hundreds, sometimes hundreds and hundreds of acres of earth.
00:47:41.440 --> 00:47:49.599
And the way they're constructed, sometimes they'll just go in and just strip the entire earth uh of all vegetation.
00:47:49.760 --> 00:48:08.159
Um and that's what will happen out at the site that you're referencing, and it just caused all kinds of runoff problems because obviously vegetation holds precipitation in place, and it slowly lets it release or go into the ground, um, which reduces the stormwater runoff.
00:48:08.480 --> 00:48:22.480
Uh but this site uh again stripped hundreds of acres at once, created a basically a big parking lot, uh, and uh the the runoff, the amounts of runoff that were coming off that were were very problematic.
00:48:23.360 --> 00:48:25.440
Not only to that site, but also neighbors.
00:48:25.840 --> 00:48:26.480
The adjacent farm.
00:48:26.639 --> 00:48:26.960
Yeah, neighbors.
00:48:27.440 --> 00:48:28.159
Preserved farm.
00:48:28.800 --> 00:48:29.199
Yeah.
00:48:29.440 --> 00:48:33.119
So uh those that those kind of situations are very problematic.
00:48:34.159 --> 00:48:34.480
Go ahead.
00:48:35.039 --> 00:48:55.039
I think one thing maybe to touch on is that again, uh especially with data centers, not only is the technology of how they're cooled and and coming together and and and whatnot, but lessons learned though from that solar farm project that we had is there's some processes that have been put into place.
00:48:55.360 --> 00:49:00.639
So for any um solar array that comes into the county, there should be a pre-application.
00:49:01.199 --> 00:49:05.360
Um we've recommended and we do have an adva a planning advice document for that example.
00:49:06.320 --> 00:49:07.599
It's right next to the data centers.
00:49:08.239 --> 00:49:16.880
And we've updated and modified that where we talk about um meeting with the conservation district prior to the their permit application even going in.
00:49:17.199 --> 00:49:27.199
Um we've talked about phasing development, because again, with that project they came in and just clear cut and removed the vegetation, whereas we recommend phasing that.
00:49:27.360 --> 00:49:34.320
So maybe start, okay, start one big huge section, but leave this as is for right now until you're ready to move on.
00:49:34.559 --> 00:49:37.519
Um so there's been things that we've all learned, right?
00:49:37.599 --> 00:49:40.639
Um with projects that have come in and at this scale.
00:49:41.280 --> 00:49:45.280
And being aware of pre-existing conditions, that was another issue.
00:49:45.440 --> 00:50:08.400
There was a uh propensity for flooding from one side of this road through a culvert and flooding the farmer's area, but it was few and far between because it had uh vegetation, and when they stripped that, it became a raceway.
00:50:08.880 --> 00:50:17.920
And to the extent that the farmer had to dig redig multiple wells, his wells for his dairy herd uh were fouled.
00:50:18.239 --> 00:50:24.400
Uh it can really cause problems if you don't do this properly.
00:50:24.639 --> 00:50:42.719
Yeah, and part of also when I'm on the other side of the table with any type of real estate development, whether it's commercial or or residential, I always recommend have that staff meeting with the municipality first as part of the before you submit the plan.
00:50:43.519 --> 00:51:14.400
Spend the time and a lot less money than an engineered preliminary plan to do the concept plan and have that meeting, uh that hour meeting with the township staff and maybe a member of Borough Council or the Board of Supervisors or City Council, because they they know the area, they know what the pitfalls might be of a specific piece of property, they also uh will know uh uh what the pros and cons might be of that property and where the opposition would be and how you can address that early.
00:51:14.559 --> 00:51:22.320
That that first meeting is is so valuable that pre-application meeting is is critically, critically important.
00:51:23.199 --> 00:51:34.960
And Dean, you you um give the same advice, these large projects kind of explain it's it's similar, it's a little different relative to the community, but uh why it's important.
00:51:35.280 --> 00:51:59.840
Yeah, we we definitely advocate for uh what we call a pre-application meeting to come in, talk to us, uh lay out what you're planning and and what kind of practices you're putting on uh to control runoff, obviously, uh and we can help them move through the regulatory process and make sure that they meet the regulations that they're that they're required to.
00:52:00.159 --> 00:52:22.559
Yeah, these these projects are complicated, and when a developer, really in any large project, takes that time, it not only uh in the case of a township can help the community not deal with a lot of back and forth and concerns, it can actually save a developer money.
00:52:22.880 --> 00:52:39.199
Because if they don't do things properly and they don't know what's going on, or they propose something in an area that is just absolutely not going to fly with the conservation district, uh they're paying to go back and forth and back and forth.
00:52:39.440 --> 00:52:41.119
Engineers get paid.
00:52:41.280 --> 00:52:44.800
In the case of the township, it's engineers and and attorneys.
00:52:45.039 --> 00:52:49.519
So that is a I think an important uh piece in the process.
00:52:49.840 --> 00:53:12.559
In the time that we have left and uh a handful of minutes, I'd like uh each of you to kind of give a closing thought, a minute or so, excuse me, of what you would say uh to the public and uh to municipal leaders uh from your area of expertise.
00:53:12.880 --> 00:53:13.519
Start with Joan.
00:53:13.840 --> 00:53:15.039
Okay, thank you, Commissioner.
00:53:15.119 --> 00:53:24.480
It's data centers uh are a new use, uh, but they have been around for quite some time as as we started the program with.
00:53:24.719 --> 00:53:29.119
They're not going away, and you can't legislate them away.
00:53:29.360 --> 00:53:41.840
However, you can mitigate the impacts, and you can do that by carefully drawn ordinances, and you can do that uh in your application of the ordinances in a way that's fair.
00:53:42.079 --> 00:53:44.159
There's going to be opposition from the public.
00:53:44.320 --> 00:53:51.599
There's a lot of public fear, there's a lot of rumors that go around on uh social media and websites.
00:53:51.920 --> 00:53:59.360
Uh there's a lot of good to the internet, and there's a lot of good to social media, but unfortunately it also spreads misconceptions and rumors.
00:53:59.679 --> 00:54:07.199
And municipal officials need to really have good open communication uh with the residents.
00:54:07.360 --> 00:54:11.280
It does a lot to build trust, and trust is key.
00:54:12.880 --> 00:54:14.239
So let's keep going here.
00:54:14.719 --> 00:54:20.559
Yeah, I just want to let your viewers know that the conservation district is very concerned about these type of development projects.
00:54:20.719 --> 00:54:24.719
However, we can't advocate for or against anything like this.
00:54:24.880 --> 00:54:35.679
We just are here to make sure that they meet the regulatory requirements and the development is done in a way that is it reduces the impact as much as we possibly can.
00:54:38.000 --> 00:54:40.000
I would just like to echo the sentiment.
00:54:40.159 --> 00:54:43.760
So the County Planning Commission welcomes your calls, your emails.
00:54:43.840 --> 00:54:50.880
You can email us at our general email box if you have any questions or concerns, we invite that um conversation.
00:54:51.039 --> 00:55:09.360
Um but I think to to kind of talk about the items or talking about a development or or potential proposals for data centers, um, as part of our role at the county, we track every land development proposal that comes into our office from the municipalities for review.
00:55:09.599 --> 00:55:19.039
Um so to check that out and to understand what is being built in Berks County, you can visit our What is Burks Building subdivision and land development dashboard.
00:55:19.199 --> 00:55:22.239
Um I think that if we can, we can share that on the screen.
00:55:22.320 --> 00:55:27.519
But again, you will find that uh right on our main webpage for the County Planning Commission.
00:55:27.599 --> 00:55:31.360
Um and so I direct you there to get some answers and understand.
00:55:31.519 --> 00:55:36.159
And if you want more answers or you have questions, please feel free to contact us.
00:55:36.719 --> 00:55:50.880
Well, thank you to our guest, uh Joan London, uh shareholder with Kozlov Stout, Dean Druckenmiller, Executive Director with the Berks County Conservation District, and Ashley Showers, Director of the Berks County Planning Commission.
00:55:51.039 --> 00:55:59.360
If you want more information from any of our guests, uh the information is up on the screen to contact any one of them.
00:55:59.679 --> 00:56:17.519
And I hope that you've learned something valuable about not just data centers, but more importantly, the process and why it is critical that every municipality in Berks County adopt an enforceable data center ordinance.
00:56:17.760 --> 00:56:26.639
I'm your host, Berks County Commissioner Christian Leinbach, thanking you for joining us for another edition of County Connection.
00:00:10.400 --> 00:00:16.559
I'm Commissioner Christian Leinbach, and I want to welcome you to another edition of County Connection.
00:00:16.960 --> 00:00:24.960
We have a very boring topic today that no one is going to be interested in, data centers.
00:00:25.760 --> 00:00:40.399
If there is any topic that I've heard more talk, more debate, and a lot of misinformation about over the last year or so, it has to be data centers.
00:00:40.640 --> 00:00:44.880
Well, we have an excellent panel here today to talk about it.
00:00:44.960 --> 00:01:02.960
We're not going to be taking positions for or against, but rather explaining what they are, uh what they're not, and how important it is for municipalities and counties, quite frankly, to get in front of this issue.
00:01:03.119 --> 00:01:05.760
So let me start by introducing our guest.
00:01:06.000 --> 00:01:08.959
I want to start uh with Ashley Showers.
00:01:09.040 --> 00:01:13.599
She is the executive director of the Berks County Planning Commission.
00:01:13.760 --> 00:01:14.560
Welcome, Ashley.
00:01:14.879 --> 00:01:15.760
Thank you, Commissioner.
00:01:16.079 --> 00:01:18.079
We then have uh Dean Druckenmiller.
00:01:18.319 --> 00:01:22.319
Dean is the executive director of the Berks County Conservation District.
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Welcome, Dean.
00:01:23.359 --> 00:01:24.239
Yes, thank you, Commissioner.
00:01:24.480 --> 00:01:25.040
Thanks for having me.
00:01:25.280 --> 00:01:26.480
Then Joan London.
00:01:26.560 --> 00:01:31.760
Uh Joan is an attorney and shareholder with Kozlov Stout.
00:01:31.920 --> 00:01:40.319
Uh she has a number of specialty areas, but two of them that are really important today are municipal law and zoning law.
00:01:40.560 --> 00:01:45.439
So thank you for joining us uh on the program today.
00:01:45.920 --> 00:02:04.799
I think we need to start, not necessarily at the very beginning, but uh with some key dates and then talk about what data centers are and what they are not, or better yet, the different types of data centers, because data centers are not new.
00:02:05.120 --> 00:02:09.120
But here are the three major dates.
00:02:09.280 --> 00:02:12.400
The middle one is really a range of dates.
00:02:12.879 --> 00:02:24.719
Prior to 9-11, which we just celebrated the 25th anniversary of that tragic event, uh companies with computers knew that they needed to back up.
00:02:24.800 --> 00:02:30.879
They couldn't rely on people having stuff on their hard drive of the desktop.
00:02:30.960 --> 00:02:36.639
Uh they backed them up in server rooms in most cases, somewhere in their business.
00:02:36.800 --> 00:02:47.599
Unfortunately, one of the lessons learned in 9-11 is if there's a catastrophic event that takes out your entire facility, your backup is gone.
00:02:47.840 --> 00:03:03.199
And so right after 9-11, there was a major effort uh building data centers primarily for the purpose of back office uh finances, email, files, etc.
00:03:03.759 --> 00:03:08.240
A great example of that is DirectLink up at the Reading Regional Airport.
00:03:08.400 --> 00:03:23.039
Uh for those that have been around long enough, it was the old GPU Med building, and they have a data center uh that's below ground uh there, and it's that basically that type of data center.
00:03:23.360 --> 00:03:36.800
The second uh area uh or timeline is really from about 2006 to 2012, uh people began to hear about the cloud or cloud computing.
00:03:37.039 --> 00:03:55.199
And the idea here uh was that either from a business standpoint uh or some models that came out uh existed not on your servers in your business or at your home, but existed in a data center.
00:03:55.360 --> 00:04:06.639
And so in 2006, uh AWS uh started uh their services uh and they had their own data centers.
00:04:06.719 --> 00:04:10.400
Again, this is not what we're talking about in the larger sense.
00:04:10.560 --> 00:04:16.160
Dropbox 2007-2008, again, an online file.
00:04:16.319 --> 00:04:27.839
You didn't have to store the whole idea, especially for videos and larger files, you could file them there, share the access uh with multiple uh individuals.
00:04:28.240 --> 00:04:36.800
iCloud, Apple iCloud came about in 2011, and Google Drive in 2012.
00:04:37.279 --> 00:04:54.800
In addition to that, many different products started to move their uh hosting of the program from the business to the cloud, whether it was Microsoft or any number of other uh products.
00:04:55.120 --> 00:05:03.759
The third area took place in November of 2022 with the launch of Chat GPT.
00:05:04.079 --> 00:05:07.759
Uh better way to look at this is generative AI.
00:05:08.000 --> 00:05:39.680
Uh machine learning, AI, is not new, it's been around a long time, but the idea of supercomputing that is able to take tremendous amounts of information and very quickly collate it and provide it back uh to the end user, that's what this was, and is, and it is a booming industry, and it's what's driving uh the data center explosion that we see today.
00:05:40.079 --> 00:05:44.399
Real quickly, there are several different types of data centers.
00:05:44.720 --> 00:05:47.920
And the first is an enterprise data center.
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These are privately built, they're owned, they're operated normally by a single uh entity, and they're normally for internal use.
00:05:57.199 --> 00:06:01.120
You go back to the model we talked about 9-11.
00:06:01.199 --> 00:06:11.040
It would be a company that's large enough to say we don't want on-site backup, we need off-site, but we want to own that outright.
00:06:11.199 --> 00:06:15.360
Uh we need we need to have total control uh over that.
00:06:15.600 --> 00:06:28.480
So government agencies in some cases are doing that, some banks are doing it, hospitals where there's very, very strict security needs and they need to have their own uh area.
00:06:28.720 --> 00:06:55.279
The second type are co-location data centers, and these are third-party uh facilities, much like direct link, where you can uh simply lease space, lease uh and by space not necessarily square footage, although it could come down to square footage, but you're leasing data space based on what your company needs are.
00:06:55.519 --> 00:06:59.839
Uh DirectLink, again, is a great uh a great example.
00:07:00.079 --> 00:07:08.560
Uh the third, and this is what we are focused on, they're often referred to as supercomputing data centers or hyperscale.
00:07:09.199 --> 00:07:10.959
These are enormous.
00:07:11.360 --> 00:07:21.600
They typically are at least 10,000 square feet, and in many cases can be hundreds of thousands of square feet in size.
00:07:21.759 --> 00:07:30.160
Uh they're owned largely by tech giants, AWS, Microsoft, Google, Meta, and others.
00:07:30.399 --> 00:07:33.920
In some cases, they may be built speculative.
00:07:34.639 --> 00:07:48.720
Uh the one tour that I did uh is an entire campus uh up in Berwick, and that's all AWS, uh, and it's right next to uh a nuclear uh power uh plant.
00:07:49.120 --> 00:07:53.680
The one other type that I just want to touch on are called edge data centers.
00:07:53.839 --> 00:08:11.680
They're small, they're localized, they're positioned physically close to the end user, uh, and they it it is it's typically for smaller business or entity, but again, is separate but very, very close.
00:08:11.839 --> 00:08:19.839
The idea is it could be a building 50 feet away, uh, and they tend not to be that large.
00:08:20.000 --> 00:08:26.319
Our focus is on the hyper data centers or the supercomputing.
00:08:26.560 --> 00:08:41.679
And one of the things I think will help our listeners understand why we're talking about that, if you think back when did we start talking about data centers in the last two to three years.
00:08:42.159 --> 00:08:50.720
It it traces right back to November of 2022, chat open AI, and multiple ones since then.
00:08:50.879 --> 00:09:04.960
Groc, uh if you look at Google has Gemini, uh Microsoft uh Copilot, uh Anthropic has Claude, and uh there are multiple others uh that are out there.
00:09:05.360 --> 00:09:13.600
And I think that's a very good point, Christian, because uh for a very long time the data centers operated under the radar.
00:09:13.759 --> 00:09:18.960
Nobody they thought of them as maybe a small server farm that was accessory to a business.
00:09:19.039 --> 00:09:42.639
We would consider it an accessory use uh in land use terminology, and then uh it became a use in and of itself, and with heightened awareness because of the debate over warehouses, particularly in counties along interstate corridors like Burks County, that's when you saw the discussion start, is when they were in larger buildings, similar similar to the warehouses, only larger.
00:09:43.279 --> 00:09:52.159
Yeah, uh when you look at that, it it's very easy for people to get some of the information.
00:09:52.240 --> 00:09:59.440
And I think in the beginning, what people began to hear is this is more than just a warehouse.
00:09:59.759 --> 00:10:05.919
Because let's be honest, warehouses uh were the bad thing for quite some time.
00:10:06.080 --> 00:10:14.399
I'm not saying they've turned and become the thing that people want, but I've actually heard people say I'd rather have a warehouse than a data center.
00:10:14.639 --> 00:10:20.000
And I get that because now you're looking at completely different impacts with the warehouse.
00:10:20.240 --> 00:10:21.200
What was the big thing?
00:10:21.519 --> 00:10:22.399
It was trucks coming.
00:10:23.039 --> 00:10:29.440
And it was traffic and no it was traffic and noise, but now the concern is the water and power usage.
00:10:29.679 --> 00:10:31.279
There's very little truck traffic.
00:10:31.519 --> 00:10:35.440
And when you first heard about data centers, it was well, there's no truck traffic.
00:10:35.600 --> 00:10:36.559
What's the downside?
00:10:36.720 --> 00:10:44.799
And then then you heard stories out of Texas and out of Northern Virginia about the water supply, wells, and power.
00:10:44.960 --> 00:10:46.639
Now we'll we'll talk about it later, I'm sure.
00:10:47.120 --> 00:10:49.039
Sound vibration vibration.
00:10:49.279 --> 00:10:49.519
Yep.
00:10:49.840 --> 00:10:59.279
And that was the early days of it, but uh it's it's still out there as a as a big concern, and that's where our ordinances come in to abate those problems.
00:10:59.919 --> 00:11:01.759
And you mentioned uh Virginia.
00:11:02.000 --> 00:11:13.279
I know uh a couple of the uh commissioners uh in actually I believe their supervisors, uh Mike and uh Phyllis Randall's one I've known for a number of years.
00:11:13.519 --> 00:11:18.559
They actually trace their data center development back to the founding of AOL.
00:11:19.120 --> 00:11:27.519
So even there, I early on made the mistake of saying Loudoun County, Virginia is the data center capital of the world.
00:11:27.840 --> 00:11:37.200
Now it is, but we have to be cautious that those data centers are not all the uh supercomputing data centers.
00:11:37.360 --> 00:11:40.399
They literally go back to AOL.
00:11:40.639 --> 00:11:48.480
AOL uh kind of settled in that spot and uh never left and is still around.
00:11:48.960 --> 00:11:54.399
Uh so this brings up, I think, an important issue.
00:11:55.360 --> 00:12:03.679
We saw this in the county, uh all each of you probably from a little bit different perspective.
00:12:03.840 --> 00:12:16.000
Uh we saw it from discussions we had, uh discussions in the planning community, uh talking to communities that uh had other challenges.
00:12:16.320 --> 00:12:28.960
Uh you saw it from the standpoint as people started showing up at supervisors meetings or commissioners in our uh second-class, uh, first class townships.
00:12:29.759 --> 00:12:40.480
And permitting, I don't know, we've you haven't done any permitting yet uh for a data center in Burks, a hyperscale data center.
00:12:40.799 --> 00:12:41.440
Yeah, not yet.
00:12:41.679 --> 00:12:42.000
Not yet.
00:12:42.320 --> 00:12:48.720
There's there's plans, but but you're you're aware of other ones in the state through your colleagues.
00:12:49.360 --> 00:12:52.320
Uh you've been involved in the ordinance standpoint.
00:12:52.799 --> 00:13:15.039
Ashley, if you could talk to us, the county, I don't want to say we were in front of the curve, but we were ahead and still are ahead of where many counties are when it comes to addressing this and helping our municipalities uh understand what this is and what they can do and what they should do.
00:13:15.840 --> 00:13:31.120
Yes, so as you said, you know, even starting way back in 2022, you know, four years ago, the planning association for planners um is always training and sticking with the emerging land uses and impacts of what they will be.
00:13:31.360 --> 00:13:40.000
And so with that came a lot of research, a lot of webinars, um discussing about the impacts of these hyperscale facilities.
00:13:40.240 --> 00:13:56.159
And so, in doing that, and and our role as a county of being a support system for our local municipalities, we created um in April of this year our planning advice for data centers, which which we could probably pop up onto the screen.
00:13:56.240 --> 00:14:09.759
Um, there's a link there, um, and also an image of the data advice, but really giving our municipalities the first outline of here's what you need to discuss and plan for and what you should consider when you're planning for them.
00:14:10.080 --> 00:14:11.440
And what why don't you take us through this?
00:14:11.600 --> 00:14:12.240
We have time.
00:14:12.399 --> 00:14:14.399
This is a longer uh show.
00:14:14.639 --> 00:14:36.080
I think that this information is so important, not just what you provided, but talk a little bit about uh the research you did and your team did before you put out the document and uh how people can not only access the document, but access a lot of your sources of uh research.
00:14:36.480 --> 00:14:37.360
Yes, thank you.
00:14:37.519 --> 00:14:39.519
Um so you can find this.
00:14:39.600 --> 00:14:46.799
Um the link is on the screen there, but it you can find it on the Planning Commission's main webpage under planning advice.
00:14:46.960 --> 00:14:54.159
You if you scroll down from our main page, there will be a card there that says planning advice, and then you would look for the data center advice.
00:14:54.399 --> 00:15:02.399
But this really provided our municipalities, again, um 20 recommendations to consider.
00:15:02.799 --> 00:15:12.960
And so we have things about one talking about addressing it on a comprehensive planning level process, um, and then getting into the zoning.
00:15:13.120 --> 00:15:19.279
But if they chose to go with just their zoning and allowing that, we talked about things about overlay zonings.
00:15:19.600 --> 00:15:20.159
Uh zoning.
00:15:23.600 --> 00:15:33.759
Because these are kind of the big steps, and then we can uh get into some of the detail uh with what your recommendations are.
00:15:34.159 --> 00:15:34.399
Okay.
00:15:34.639 --> 00:15:38.639
Um so again, you want being proactive, that's the first thing.
00:15:38.799 --> 00:15:40.879
So plan before proposals arrive.
00:15:41.039 --> 00:15:43.039
And really there's mechanisms in place.
00:15:43.200 --> 00:15:48.960
Joan could probably talk to that end, but really you want to plan before proposals arrive.
00:15:49.360 --> 00:15:51.679
So let's touch on that, the legal side of that.
00:15:51.840 --> 00:15:53.039
Why is that important?
00:15:53.519 --> 00:16:01.919
Well, why can't we just say uh we'll deal with it when it when it arrives, or better yet, let's make them illegal.
00:16:02.240 --> 00:16:04.879
There there are there are two problems with that.
00:16:05.039 --> 00:16:40.720
Number one, uh a municipality under decisions of Pennsylvania courts and under the municipality's planning code, which is the statute under which uh all land use ordinances are written and decisions made, requires that a municipality uh provide for every lawful land use, or that a comprehensive plan area, a joint comprehensive plan area, if the zoning ordinances are uh consistent with each other, or a joint zoning ordinance area, that there be an area where every use is reasonably provided for.
00:16:41.279 --> 00:17:21.039
And the problem is that if you don't have a lawful use provided for and someone comes in with a plan, there is a possibility that your ordinance is deemed to exclude the use, and then a court can award what's called site-specific relief, and that is that the uh the court can decide that the location where the owner or developer wants to put the use, could be the data center, is an appropriate location for it, and uh they will get they will get their use, and there won't be any regulations in place for it, because that's an important part of what zoning and zoning ordinances do.
00:17:21.279 --> 00:17:30.640
The old saying is uh and it was from the uh Supreme Court decision that uh that enabled zoning, is you don't want the pig in the parlor.
00:17:31.200 --> 00:17:37.599
And uh it was um the Euclid, Euclid decision uh from the early 20th century.
00:17:38.160 --> 00:17:42.240
And this it puts every use in their place where it belongs.
00:17:42.400 --> 00:17:50.960
For example, with data centers, very often that will be uh a district where industrial uses are allowed, such as uh warehouse uses.
00:17:51.119 --> 00:18:01.680
Uh often you will find that uh data centers are proposed for industrial areas where industry hasn't been there for quite some time and there's an abandoned industrial.
00:18:03.039 --> 00:18:06.319
Perfect Fort Brownfields is is another example of that.
00:18:06.640 --> 00:18:21.519
Uh but it allows for regulations that can uh make that can mitigate some of the more negative effects you were talking about, sound and vibration, allows for setbacks, requires buffering, requires noise canceling equipment, all of those things can be provided for.
00:18:21.599 --> 00:18:33.519
But if you don't have an ordinance on the books, there's no regulation for it, and it's the developer will be able to put in whatever, you know, what the the use however they want it.
00:18:33.759 --> 00:18:36.799
So you have to be able to put have reasonable regulation.
00:18:36.960 --> 00:18:45.279
The other side of exclusionary zoning is if you have an ordinance, but it is so strict that it keeps the use out.
00:18:45.440 --> 00:18:54.640
Maybe it maybe it theoretically allows data centers, but the lot size is impossible or the restrictions make it impossible.
00:18:54.880 --> 00:19:08.000
And the courts in those cases can overrule those ordinances as exclusionary, either de facto exclusionary or exclusionary because it it actively keeps it, prohibits the use everywhere.
00:19:08.240 --> 00:19:11.759
So that's where that's where our land use ordinances come in.
00:19:12.079 --> 00:19:16.319
Yeah, and there are many municipalities in Burks already working on them.
00:19:16.480 --> 00:19:19.680
Several have already passed their ordinances.
00:19:19.839 --> 00:19:30.799
And I would just say to the public, uh it's important for them to understand their municipality, at least in addressing it with an ordinance, they're doing the right thing.
00:19:31.039 --> 00:19:34.640
Now, what the ordinance says is also important.
00:19:35.200 --> 00:19:40.480
So you want an ordinance in place before the data center is being uh proposed.
00:19:40.720 --> 00:19:42.079
Talk about location.
00:19:42.640 --> 00:19:42.880
Right.
00:19:43.039 --> 00:19:58.000
And and and I think Joan touched on that as well of think about your location again, primarily industrial zoned areas, but maybe again lease impact, who the receptors will be, the the the adjacent land uses around it.
00:19:58.400 --> 00:20:02.240
Again, also looking at infrastructure, that's critical.
00:20:02.400 --> 00:20:03.440
What infrastructure is there?
00:20:03.920 --> 00:20:07.039
Sewer, water, electric primarily, maybe natural gas.
00:20:07.519 --> 00:20:07.920
Yes.
00:20:08.160 --> 00:20:26.720
Um location is key, access to, even thinking about in into the weeds a little bit about emergency access, again, with the type of infrastructure that's going to be built there and housed there, emergency service access to that uh is important to consider as well.
00:20:27.279 --> 00:20:35.119
And Dean, from a conservation district standpoint, you're focused very much on erosion, sediment control.
00:20:36.160 --> 00:20:45.119
Location that Ashley's talking about is particular zoning area, considering what's around that.
00:20:45.440 --> 00:20:50.559
What aspects of location are important to the conservation district?
00:20:51.039 --> 00:21:08.799
Well, we're we're concerned with obviously water resources, uh, and if a data center is located to an exceptional value stream, high quality value stream, or wetland or things like that, that's where we take a little harder look at uh these these development projects in the county.
00:21:09.119 --> 00:21:11.119
And you come into play with the permitting.
00:21:11.279 --> 00:21:30.319
Just briefly explain the kind of permitting that comes into place because a township or a municipality may have a grade ordinance in place, and within that ordinance it's allowed in certain places, or we just had a municipality literally carve and say this place only.
00:21:31.200 --> 00:21:40.480
Uh what are you again are you looking at when that developer comes in and says, We we need your approval?
00:21:40.559 --> 00:21:41.359
What is that approval?
00:21:41.680 --> 00:21:58.160
Yeah, so just a step back, uh the conservation district is delegated by the Pennsylvania Department of Environmental Protection to review all uh new construction stormwater permits uh for you know land development projects in throughout the county.
00:21:58.480 --> 00:22:22.640
So when when a permit comes Comes in to us, we're looking at it from uh during the construction phase, we're mostly looking at it from uh erosion sediment control aspect uh to make sure that there are best management practices in place to capture the water runoff during the construction project, and so that it's not discharged into our streams and our wetlands here in Berks County.
00:22:22.960 --> 00:22:32.880
And like we said, a project doesn't come to you until it's first gone uh to the township, and it's part of the overall permitting uh process.
00:22:33.519 --> 00:22:54.079
One other item on location, uh, and we talk briefly, but I want to emphasize the best location is a brownfield site where infrastructure already exists, where there's the ability to take a site, and I'm gonna give two examples in Berks County.
00:22:54.400 --> 00:23:00.799
NGK over in Muhlenburg Township, former beryllium facility, a lot of issues.
00:23:00.960 --> 00:23:08.319
It's been cleaned up to a certain uh level, uh, but you can bring a data center in at a location like that.
00:23:08.480 --> 00:23:13.359
You're not really coming up against much in the way of residential.
00:23:13.440 --> 00:23:32.240
Uh pretty, I mean you have a cemetery on one side surrounded by uh streets on uh four sides and some commercial uh activity, but you now get that cleaned up to even a greater uh standard, and you have arguably your utilities there.
00:23:32.480 --> 00:23:34.559
Titus Station is the other one.
00:23:34.640 --> 00:23:45.119
Uh Titus Station was a power plant uh up until maybe 10, 12 years ago, somewhere in there when it was uh shut down because it was no longer efficient.
00:23:45.279 --> 00:23:47.440
Uh that is important.
00:23:48.319 --> 00:24:03.359
Uh most people don't want to see any type of industrial work in the middle of a farm, in the middle of a township where all you might have is a township road.
00:24:03.519 --> 00:24:11.920
You don't have the sewer, you don't have the water, you don't have uh the the uh scope of electric power available.
00:24:12.079 --> 00:24:17.519
So that's another aspect of location as a township uh looks at that.
00:24:17.839 --> 00:24:36.559
And it's also better for the data center developer itself, too, because if they don't have those resources, if they don't have the water, the power in particular, or the sewer, they have to extend all of those all of those items to the site.
00:24:36.720 --> 00:24:43.920
And many ordinances that's one of the key points of the ordinance is you must bring your own water to the site.
00:24:44.160 --> 00:24:55.680
You must be connected to the public sewer, and you must have sufficient power because we want to mitigate those potential impacts on our power, our power rates, and our water for our community residents.
00:24:56.000 --> 00:24:57.599
And that's the third point here.
00:24:57.839 --> 00:25:00.799
Determine how resources are protected for the future.
00:25:00.960 --> 00:25:02.000
Talk about that, Ashley.
00:25:02.960 --> 00:25:08.720
Um so again, it it all plays into all you can see the pieces here of the ordinance.
00:25:08.880 --> 00:25:19.599
Um, but again, thinking about how if there's not enough um water and soar resources there, how is that going to impact in the future?
00:25:19.759 --> 00:25:22.000
How does that impact the community?
00:25:22.160 --> 00:25:34.799
Um, you're also talking about though your water resources, your woodlands, your steep slopes, all of that, the ecosystem resources that we want to pay attention to and address as we're developing the ordinances.
00:25:35.279 --> 00:25:39.519
And really the responsibility also is part of this.
00:25:39.759 --> 00:26:08.160
This responsibility for power uh in our uh recommendations, but in virtually any of the good uh ordinances out there, rest of the country, most of these are county-level ordinances, here they're municipal, require the data center to either provide its own power, and we're probably three to five years away from on-site uh mini-nuclear generation.
00:26:08.319 --> 00:26:12.480
Uh and I that's controversial with some people, uh, not with me.
00:26:12.640 --> 00:26:14.799
Uh I think that makes a whole lot of sense.
00:26:14.960 --> 00:26:34.000
But in the interim, they have to prove and have from the local power company uh documentation that they have the power available without impacting in any way other commercial or residential property owners.
00:26:34.160 --> 00:26:51.359
So you can't come in and the and the power company is saying everybody's rates are going up because XYZ Data Center is uh needs this, or water rates are going up because XYD, XYZ Data Center uh needs these resources.
00:26:51.519 --> 00:27:08.079
You gotta you have we have to determine what the resources are that need to be protected, and the responsibility, enforcement is the responsibility of government, but the responsibility of the payfor has to be the data center.
00:27:08.400 --> 00:27:39.599
And one of one of the key points uh that many municipalities have in their ordinances, and I believe that Penn Futures has in the model ordinance that many uh many residents and advocacy groups and township uh officials have seen, and municipal officials have seen, is not only does the uh data center developer in the application process have to provide the will serve letter for power uh in particular, also also for water, but that that's another issue.
00:27:39.759 --> 00:27:58.240
Uh but they have to have a study, uh, an actual impact study at the phase of a land use approval to show, signed and sealed by a qualified engineer whose license is on the line, uh, to show that it's not going to affect power rates.
00:27:58.400 --> 00:28:08.400
And uh same with same with water, uh, although some of the newer data centers are less likely to use as much water because of different types of cooling systems that recycle.
00:28:08.799 --> 00:28:09.119
Right.
00:28:09.200 --> 00:28:11.200
And we'll we'll get into that.
00:28:11.279 --> 00:28:24.960
Uh let's touch a little bit on uh when we look at the building itself, how it's being uh not the building, but the functionality.
00:28:25.200 --> 00:28:27.839
Water has been mentioned several times.
00:28:28.079 --> 00:28:34.960
Water's probably the biggest thing that the conservation district deals with.
00:28:35.359 --> 00:28:42.160
Because we live in the Northeast United States, we're largely spoiled when it comes to water.
00:28:42.400 --> 00:28:48.880
We have a drought now and then, a drought to us, uh, you know, we we got a burn ban.
00:28:48.960 --> 00:28:51.200
If it's really bad, we get a burn ban.
00:28:51.359 --> 00:28:57.279
And if it's really bad during the summer, uh farmers get hit with it.
00:28:57.599 --> 00:29:10.880
But most of the country has a water shortage, and when you get to the west and southwest, uh there are questions about certain industries surviving long term because of the lack of water.
00:29:10.960 --> 00:29:20.240
As a result, many, and I believe a vast majority of the newer data center proposals coming through are not water-cooled.
00:29:20.480 --> 00:29:26.880
They are air-cooled, uh, which leads to sound and vibration issues, these huge fans.
00:29:27.279 --> 00:29:32.640
But where they are water-cooled, our recommendation is a closed loop.
00:29:32.960 --> 00:29:33.519
Closed loop system.
00:29:33.839 --> 00:29:40.640
Closed loop system, yeah, which uh makes a big difference on your end of the picture.
00:29:40.799 --> 00:29:45.519
If you want to talk a little bit how that changes the way you look at it from the district.
00:29:45.920 --> 00:29:56.480
Yeah, that that those that's huge if they can, you know, do a closed loop system because they're not extracting water from the ground or from streams or lakes, things like that.
00:29:56.720 --> 00:30:06.240
You know, Pennsylvania is water rich, and that's one of the why some of the reasons why they're attracted to Pennsylvania is because of our water resources.
00:30:06.480 --> 00:30:15.200
So if they can, you know, have a closed loop system, that is much less of a demand on our water resources here.
00:30:15.519 --> 00:30:19.039
We've took talked a lot about the infrastructure.
00:30:19.119 --> 00:30:23.119
Let's talk a little bit about managing the community impacts.
00:30:23.279 --> 00:30:30.319
We've all touched on it, but could you look at the ordinance and just share some of the types of things?
00:30:30.480 --> 00:30:43.039
We talked just briefly about buffers, but buffers, buffers can be distances, buffers can be physical uh buffers, uh buffers can be architectural requirements.
00:30:43.200 --> 00:31:02.000
Some of the newest data centers have uh uh new architectural designs along the roof, a parapet that drives the sound back into the building roof area versus just a flat roof with a lot a lot of uh fans.
00:31:02.160 --> 00:31:03.440
Can you talk about that, Ashley?
00:31:04.319 --> 00:31:23.759
So yeah, again, different mechanisms for as they design these buildings, like so you do have buffers, but even the way the building's designed, even talking about like again, using if it's gonna be a massive structure, you know, a hundred plus thousand square feet uh square foot building, um, what can they do?
00:31:23.839 --> 00:31:26.559
So like mitigating heat island effect, right?
00:31:26.720 --> 00:31:27.920
Heating, heating measures.
00:31:28.079 --> 00:31:29.759
How are how can they do that?
00:31:29.920 --> 00:31:39.359
Um, you know, uh you can also uh talk about um you know, renewable energy to the extent possible.
00:31:39.519 --> 00:31:45.359
Can you put solar panels on top of the facility to help some of generate some of that energy?
00:31:45.519 --> 00:31:50.640
And again, won't impact the entire community infrastructure for electric.
00:31:50.960 --> 00:32:05.759
Um again, looking at lighting even and and things of those mechanisms, what is the standard for that and what what has been established for those zones and making sure, you know, again, these are secured facilities most often than not.
00:32:05.920 --> 00:32:10.079
So, what will be the impacts of of lighting of the facility?
00:32:10.319 --> 00:32:19.680
Um but talking also too about the community impacts of the use and what it will bring.
00:32:19.759 --> 00:32:22.640
You talked uh we talked about traffic in warehouses, right?
00:32:23.119 --> 00:32:25.680
Data centers don't necessarily generate traffic.
00:32:26.240 --> 00:32:27.519
They don't even have truck docks.
00:32:28.960 --> 00:32:29.119
Right.
00:32:29.359 --> 00:32:39.200
Uh so so there's things things like that where it's like, okay, you know, you you're mitigating that part of the infrastructure of the roads for the community.
00:32:39.359 --> 00:32:50.079
Um but again, more looking at those natural resource impacts, but also to inf the the water and soar impacts and the electric and natural gas, all of that.
00:32:50.640 --> 00:33:01.119
And even the from the location, uh I highlighted brownfields in large part because people don't, as a rule, live next to brownfields.
00:33:01.279 --> 00:33:09.519
Uh people in Lauraldale might argue with me, the old X side building is still there, the county is still engaged with EPA on that.
00:33:09.599 --> 00:33:29.680
Uh but generally speaking, uh when we talk about the impacts, we're trying to look at every potential impact and saying how do we either eliminate that issue or significantly control that issue through an ordinance.
00:33:29.839 --> 00:33:33.119
Uh the last area on the list, long-term accountability.
00:33:33.359 --> 00:33:33.759
Mm-hmm.
00:33:34.079 --> 00:33:45.440
So, and this comes into, I know that some of the other ordinances that we've seen for review at the County Planning Commission level um have talked about different um pre-construction impact studies.
00:33:45.599 --> 00:33:54.559
So, again, looking at noise, looking at um vibration, um there's long-term monitoring that could be uh required.
00:33:54.720 --> 00:34:05.920
And you said I'm sure Dean can speak to monitoring as far as water resources, like monitoring uh groundwater wells and aquifer, uh also surface water.
00:34:06.160 --> 00:34:21.280
So those are long-term kind of accountability things that municipalities can consider both prior to the pro you know, prior to the project being constructed, but then working into their ordinance language of after that building's there and what that will look at.
00:34:21.679 --> 00:34:21.920
Right.
00:34:22.000 --> 00:34:49.039
And in ordinances that uh I have seen and worked with, for example, with the issue of noise, there's required to be a noise impact study during the uh the zoning process, the conditional use or special exception process, and uh one also after it's been in operation, a noise study to ensure that it's not exceeding the requirements.
00:34:49.119 --> 00:35:10.159
And and one area where ordinances can can be the most helpful and can most mitigate the impacts is by having quantifiable standards, a certain number of decibels uh that can be heard at the property line and no more, uh, that takes into account uh the area where it's in what's called ambient noise.
00:35:10.320 --> 00:35:19.440
You're going to have a different uh standard uh next to an interstate highway as opposed to in a more quiet rural area.
00:35:19.679 --> 00:35:23.280
Uh and are they meeting that quantifiable standard?
00:35:23.360 --> 00:35:27.920
Both are they able to with the impact study based on equipment that they use?
00:35:28.079 --> 00:35:30.000
Are they using noise canceling equipment?
00:35:30.079 --> 00:35:32.079
Are they using landscape buffering?
00:35:32.320 --> 00:35:35.440
Certain natural buffering is noise absorbent.
00:35:35.519 --> 00:35:40.960
There are sound barriers similar to what you see along highways that can be that can be used.
00:35:41.280 --> 00:35:44.320
So there noise is just one example of this.
00:35:44.719 --> 00:35:46.159
So, what about vibrations?
00:35:46.320 --> 00:35:52.559
Um, I'm familiar with a case in Loudon County, Virginia a couple of years ago.
00:35:52.719 --> 00:36:03.760
Uh with the new switch from water cooling to air cooling, it wasn't just a sound issue, it became a vibration issue.
00:36:04.000 --> 00:36:19.920
And because they had standards on vibration in their ordinance when the plant uh data center started up, they had a town two miles away where people could feel the vibrations.
00:36:20.079 --> 00:36:33.760
They were able to shut the operation down immediately and force them to put in new a new fan system that uh dramatically lowered uh the vibrations.
00:36:34.079 --> 00:36:45.039
There's an example, if you don't know that from some other example, you potentially miss that and you've got uh a rough situation on your hands.
00:36:45.679 --> 00:36:47.280
Long-term accountability.
00:36:47.440 --> 00:36:59.199
There's another issue, and I know I was one that brought this up early this year to uh our planning uh commission, and I've had this discussion at the national level.
00:37:00.480 --> 00:37:09.760
There's two concerns that I have about uh the types of structures that are going up.
00:37:10.480 --> 00:37:17.920
While a lot of people don't like warehouses, warehouses can be adapted to a lot of different uses.
00:37:18.159 --> 00:37:26.239
On 61 Leesport, there it's not a huge warehouse, but uh I believe it was a moving and storage, it's now a church.
00:37:26.400 --> 00:37:29.599
Uh very easily was retrofitted to a church.
00:37:29.920 --> 00:37:40.960
Data centers are designed for one purpose, uh and they're not easily uh adapted to some other use.
00:37:41.119 --> 00:37:44.000
So the issue of decommissioning comes into place.
00:37:44.239 --> 00:37:46.639
And I think it comes in two flavors.
00:37:47.199 --> 00:37:59.599
One, and this is my personal belief, uh I remember talking about the changes in financial rules for tech companies at the end of the last century.
00:37:59.840 --> 00:38:09.679
People began to finally say around 1999, well, I guess it isn't about whether you're making money or not, it's your stock value.
00:38:09.920 --> 00:38:24.559
And those I think all of us are old enough to remember, maybe not actually, but uh that there were companies that their stock was worth several times any kind of assets that they had.
00:38:25.199 --> 00:38:36.159
And about the time people believed the rules had changed, and that was okay, March of 2001 came and we had the tech bubble burst.
00:38:36.639 --> 00:38:42.000
I believe there's a possibility for the same thing to happen with generative AI.
00:38:42.320 --> 00:38:57.920
Uh, everyone is jumping on the AI, and again, generative AI bandwagon, and there are there are even more companies that are utilizing the services of these major AIs as the backbone for something new.
00:38:58.719 --> 00:39:18.960
How do we deal with decommissioning in the case where a company goes bankrupt uh that owns a building, or decommissioning in that 20 years, 30 years from now, there's a completely different model that no longer requires a data center.
00:39:19.920 --> 00:39:20.400
Right.
00:39:20.639 --> 00:39:37.199
So we do talk about in our planning advice um to our municipalities about discussing decommissioning, and I will tell you that decommissioning is kind of um a question amongst the planning community of is it necessary for these facilities?
00:39:37.360 --> 00:39:45.840
Because we've also seen decommissioning for other um large land use impacts like solar array farms and and and things of that.
00:39:46.159 --> 00:39:57.039
So um, but we we do recommend it and and what we do want it's more to think about again the safe shutdown of of the equipment and the removal of that equipment.
00:39:57.199 --> 00:40:03.440
Again, there's um you're talking as we know, we we do have an electronic waste collection here in Berks County.
00:40:03.519 --> 00:40:04.800
We're fortunate to have that.
00:40:05.119 --> 00:40:19.519
But there are other waste materials for this specific use that shouldn't be the responsibility of the community, the municipalities exactly to take care of when and if that use is forfeited.
00:40:19.679 --> 00:40:24.239
Um and so we talk about that again, recycling of those materials.
00:40:24.559 --> 00:40:31.039
Also talking about site restoration and thinking about the you know best management practices for stormwater and water.
00:40:31.199 --> 00:40:41.440
How can we reclaim some of that and how can we have that that that owner be responsible for that um besides being added to a brownfield list at some point?
00:40:41.679 --> 00:40:45.280
Um so yeah, that's been mentioned and discussed.
00:40:45.679 --> 00:41:00.239
Yeah, we uh in our in ordinances uh we have in place uh financial security requirements where bonds or a letter of credit is put in place for uh a hundred percent of the amount of decommissioning at present value.
00:41:00.480 --> 00:41:06.559
And in in one ordinance that I've worked with, it is uh re-evaluated every five years.
00:41:06.880 --> 00:41:08.159
That's a great idea, really.
00:41:08.559 --> 00:41:18.880
And it uses uh a technical publication, the engine engineering news record, to determine uh what is the appropriate amount to be placed for decommissioning.
00:41:19.039 --> 00:41:25.119
Uh, because it this isn't this isn't the first use or the only use where there are decommissioning requirements.
00:41:25.280 --> 00:41:35.039
In the late 90s, we used them for cell towers for the fear that we would they would be abandoned as technology changed and the municipality would be left to take them down.
00:41:35.760 --> 00:41:51.840
Uh in with uh some solar farms they're used to make sure that the surface is reclaimed because lots of times that is agricultural land and it uh should be reclaimed if if possible as as agricultural land to make sure that the panels are are removed.
00:41:52.320 --> 00:42:09.440
And with data centers, it is important that because these are such spec so specialized that uh it's not flex space and it it needs to be able to be uh to be demolished safely, components removed, and there are also uh materials.
00:42:09.599 --> 00:42:18.400
Some of the water that's used for the closed loop system contains uh coolants, glycol-based coolants that need to be uh need some special handling.
00:42:18.719 --> 00:42:32.719
Uh so there it's for the protection of the public, not just the aesthetics, but also uh also the safety of the public uh in some cases to have decommissioning financial security in place and have it within the ordinance.
00:42:33.840 --> 00:42:39.519
So people go on to the website, uh the these are the core outlines.
00:42:39.679 --> 00:42:47.280
If you could uh take us a little bit into the document where they get that and how they might utilize it.
00:42:47.360 --> 00:42:53.440
Uh first of all, you sent this almost immediately, I believe, in April to all the municipalities.
00:42:53.840 --> 00:42:54.559
Yes, that's correct.
00:42:54.719 --> 00:43:05.360
So, yes, this is shared, uh was shared with all the municipalities when we do our required municipal planning codes review of all the ordinances.
00:43:05.519 --> 00:43:09.519
We have been referencing this if we haven't seen it in what has been prepared.
00:43:09.679 --> 00:43:18.639
Um, as Joan just pointed out about the decommissioning costs being reviewed every five years, that actually was on our advice for um the municipalities.
00:43:18.880 --> 00:43:25.599
So this is housed again on the Planning Commission's uh website under our planning advice uh page.
00:43:25.920 --> 00:43:36.000
And on that page, besides just you're able to download the PDF of the actual planning advice document, you also have the resources that we use.
00:43:38.079 --> 00:43:41.519
We're not talking about two or three websites.
00:43:41.840 --> 00:43:48.239
There are maybe twenty or more links, and you've broken them out into different categories.
00:43:48.719 --> 00:43:49.440
Yes, yes.
00:43:49.599 --> 00:44:07.599
So we have um I don't have the web page right in front of me, but um we've broken it down of like again some state local references, some out of state references again, talking about Maryland and Northern Virginia and slides that have been taken from different presentations that we've attended.
00:44:09.039 --> 00:44:13.360
But yes, that is all of that is there, and we will be regularly updating that.
00:44:13.519 --> 00:44:22.719
I don't think I know one thing like we want to make sure that we have the governor's grid standards, but then also like a reference to the governor's executive order about data centers.
00:44:22.960 --> 00:44:23.760
So yes.
00:44:24.239 --> 00:44:26.239
So I I have that in front of me.
00:44:26.400 --> 00:44:39.599
Uh the the first category, and I won't read through all of them, are probably 10 or more links that are Pennsylvania county resources, documents, uh websites, et cetera.
00:44:40.159 --> 00:44:46.480
Then you have uh another section of Pennsylvania municipality resources.
00:44:47.119 --> 00:44:48.639
I I should point this out.
00:44:48.800 --> 00:44:54.079
In most cases, the ordinance itself will reside with the municipality.
00:44:54.480 --> 00:45:04.719
The rare exceptions would be in some of our more rural areas where there's an unincorporated municipality, and then the county in Pennsylvania is doing that work.
00:45:05.199 --> 00:45:09.280
There's also Pennsylvania State Resources, again, a number of links.
00:45:09.519 --> 00:45:12.480
You have links to Loudoun County, Virginia.
00:45:12.800 --> 00:45:17.119
Uh again, I do not want to become Loudoun County, Virginia.
00:45:17.360 --> 00:45:31.679
I've heard them talk uh extensively about the tax uh benefit for the rest of their residents and uh uh entities paying property tax, that's great, but I don't want to be the data center capital of the world.
00:45:31.840 --> 00:45:49.679
Uh we also have the American Planning Association resources, and then Penn State University has a website, Villanova University has a website, and then there are a number of environmental uh resources that are also uh listed.
00:45:50.400 --> 00:45:58.960
One of the things that I come back to uh is what we said at the beginning, and I'm gonna ask Dean to weigh in on this.
00:45:59.360 --> 00:46:13.679
Uh the utility-grade solar industry was ahead of the planning with municipalities in Pennsylvania.
00:46:15.039 --> 00:46:29.199
One of the messages, and and probably the key message I want to say to the public in Berks County, your municipality needs a good enforceable data center ordinance.
00:46:29.519 --> 00:46:39.199
To not have that in place, you're negotiating from a position of weakness and may end up with a lot of different problems.
00:46:39.440 --> 00:46:59.119
We don't need to uh identify the site, but there is a utility-grade solar uh operation up and running that uh really didn't follow best practices, created some serious issues for their neighbors.
00:46:59.280 --> 00:47:04.960
Uh it does appear, and I literally went past it on uh Saturday.
00:47:05.039 --> 00:47:09.679
Uh I was out at East Bend Manufacturing, and it looks great now.
00:47:10.639 --> 00:47:21.280
But during construction and even a couple years after construction, it still had not uh met the permitting requirements.
00:47:21.440 --> 00:47:31.280
Just explain how does that happen and help everyone understand why it's so important to get this stuff established up front, the ordinances.
00:47:31.760 --> 00:47:41.119
Yeah, well the solar project you're talking about and even data centers disturb hundreds, sometimes hundreds and hundreds of acres of earth.
00:47:41.440 --> 00:47:49.599
And the way they're constructed, sometimes they'll just go in and just strip the entire earth uh of all vegetation.
00:47:49.760 --> 00:48:08.159
Um and that's what will happen out at the site that you're referencing, and it just caused all kinds of runoff problems because obviously vegetation holds precipitation in place, and it slowly lets it release or go into the ground, um, which reduces the stormwater runoff.
00:48:08.480 --> 00:48:22.480
Uh but this site uh again stripped hundreds of acres at once, created a basically a big parking lot, uh, and uh the the runoff, the amounts of runoff that were coming off that were were very problematic.
00:48:23.360 --> 00:48:25.440
Not only to that site, but also neighbors.
00:48:25.840 --> 00:48:26.480
The adjacent farm.
00:48:26.639 --> 00:48:26.960
Yeah, neighbors.
00:48:27.440 --> 00:48:28.159
Preserved farm.
00:48:28.800 --> 00:48:29.199
Yeah.
00:48:29.440 --> 00:48:33.119
So uh those that those kind of situations are very problematic.
00:48:34.159 --> 00:48:34.480
Go ahead.
00:48:35.039 --> 00:48:55.039
I think one thing maybe to touch on is that again, uh especially with data centers, not only is the technology of how they're cooled and and coming together and and and whatnot, but lessons learned though from that solar farm project that we had is there's some processes that have been put into place.
00:48:55.360 --> 00:49:00.639
So for any um solar array that comes into the county, there should be a pre-application.
00:49:01.199 --> 00:49:05.360
Um we've recommended and we do have an adva a planning advice document for that example.
00:49:06.320 --> 00:49:07.599
It's right next to the data centers.
00:49:08.239 --> 00:49:16.880
And we've updated and modified that where we talk about um meeting with the conservation district prior to the their permit application even going in.
00:49:17.199 --> 00:49:27.199
Um we've talked about phasing development, because again, with that project they came in and just clear cut and removed the vegetation, whereas we recommend phasing that.
00:49:27.360 --> 00:49:34.320
So maybe start, okay, start one big huge section, but leave this as is for right now until you're ready to move on.
00:49:34.559 --> 00:49:37.519
Um so there's been things that we've all learned, right?
00:49:37.599 --> 00:49:40.639
Um with projects that have come in and at this scale.
00:49:41.280 --> 00:49:45.280
And being aware of pre-existing conditions, that was another issue.
00:49:45.440 --> 00:50:08.400
There was a uh propensity for flooding from one side of this road through a culvert and flooding the farmer's area, but it was few and far between because it had uh vegetation, and when they stripped that, it became a raceway.
00:50:08.880 --> 00:50:17.920
And to the extent that the farmer had to dig redig multiple wells, his wells for his dairy herd uh were fouled.
00:50:18.239 --> 00:50:24.400
Uh it can really cause problems if you don't do this properly.
00:50:24.639 --> 00:50:42.719
Yeah, and part of also when I'm on the other side of the table with any type of real estate development, whether it's commercial or or residential, I always recommend have that staff meeting with the municipality first as part of the before you submit the plan.
00:50:43.519 --> 00:51:14.400
Spend the time and a lot less money than an engineered preliminary plan to do the concept plan and have that meeting, uh that hour meeting with the township staff and maybe a member of Borough Council or the Board of Supervisors or City Council, because they they know the area, they know what the pitfalls might be of a specific piece of property, they also uh will know uh uh what the pros and cons might be of that property and where the opposition would be and how you can address that early.
00:51:14.559 --> 00:51:22.320
That that first meeting is is so valuable that pre-application meeting is is critically, critically important.
00:51:23.199 --> 00:51:34.960
And Dean, you you um give the same advice, these large projects kind of explain it's it's similar, it's a little different relative to the community, but uh why it's important.
00:51:35.280 --> 00:51:59.840
Yeah, we we definitely advocate for uh what we call a pre-application meeting to come in, talk to us, uh lay out what you're planning and and what kind of practices you're putting on uh to control runoff, obviously, uh and we can help them move through the regulatory process and make sure that they meet the regulations that they're that they're required to.
00:52:00.159 --> 00:52:22.559
Yeah, these these projects are complicated, and when a developer, really in any large project, takes that time, it not only uh in the case of a township can help the community not deal with a lot of back and forth and concerns, it can actually save a developer money.
00:52:22.880 --> 00:52:39.199
Because if they don't do things properly and they don't know what's going on, or they propose something in an area that is just absolutely not going to fly with the conservation district, uh they're paying to go back and forth and back and forth.
00:52:39.440 --> 00:52:41.119
Engineers get paid.
00:52:41.280 --> 00:52:44.800
In the case of the township, it's engineers and and attorneys.
00:52:45.039 --> 00:52:49.519
So that is a I think an important uh piece in the process.
00:52:49.840 --> 00:53:12.559
In the time that we have left and uh a handful of minutes, I'd like uh each of you to kind of give a closing thought, a minute or so, excuse me, of what you would say uh to the public and uh to municipal leaders uh from your area of expertise.
00:53:12.880 --> 00:53:13.519
Start with Joan.
00:53:13.840 --> 00:53:15.039
Okay, thank you, Commissioner.
00:53:15.119 --> 00:53:24.480
It's data centers uh are a new use, uh, but they have been around for quite some time as as we started the program with.
00:53:24.719 --> 00:53:29.119
They're not going away, and you can't legislate them away.
00:53:29.360 --> 00:53:41.840
However, you can mitigate the impacts, and you can do that by carefully drawn ordinances, and you can do that uh in your application of the ordinances in a way that's fair.
00:53:42.079 --> 00:53:44.159
There's going to be opposition from the public.
00:53:44.320 --> 00:53:51.599
There's a lot of public fear, there's a lot of rumors that go around on uh social media and websites.
00:53:51.920 --> 00:53:59.360
Uh there's a lot of good to the internet, and there's a lot of good to social media, but unfortunately it also spreads misconceptions and rumors.
00:53:59.679 --> 00:54:07.199
And municipal officials need to really have good open communication uh with the residents.
00:54:07.360 --> 00:54:11.280
It does a lot to build trust, and trust is key.
00:54:12.880 --> 00:54:14.239
So let's keep going here.
00:54:14.719 --> 00:54:20.559
Yeah, I just want to let your viewers know that the conservation district is very concerned about these type of development projects.
00:54:20.719 --> 00:54:24.719
However, we can't advocate for or against anything like this.
00:54:24.880 --> 00:54:35.679
We just are here to make sure that they meet the regulatory requirements and the development is done in a way that is it reduces the impact as much as we possibly can.
00:54:38.000 --> 00:54:40.000
I would just like to echo the sentiment.
00:54:40.159 --> 00:54:43.760
So the County Planning Commission welcomes your calls, your emails.
00:54:43.840 --> 00:54:50.880
You can email us at our general email box if you have any questions or concerns, we invite that um conversation.
00:54:51.039 --> 00:55:09.360
Um but I think to to kind of talk about the items or talking about a development or or potential proposals for data centers, um, as part of our role at the county, we track every land development proposal that comes into our office from the municipalities for review.
00:55:09.599 --> 00:55:19.039
Um so to check that out and to understand what is being built in Berks County, you can visit our What is Burks Building subdivision and land development dashboard.
00:55:19.199 --> 00:55:22.239
Um I think that if we can, we can share that on the screen.
00:55:22.320 --> 00:55:27.519
But again, you will find that uh right on our main webpage for the County Planning Commission.
00:55:27.599 --> 00:55:31.360
Um and so I direct you there to get some answers and understand.
00:55:31.519 --> 00:55:36.159
And if you want more answers or you have questions, please feel free to contact us.
00:55:36.719 --> 00:55:50.880
Well, thank you to our guest, uh Joan London, uh shareholder with Kozlov Stout, Dean Druckenmiller, Executive Director with the Berks County Conservation District, and Ashley Showers, Director of the Berks County Planning Commission.
00:55:51.039 --> 00:55:59.360
If you want more information from any of our guests, uh the information is up on the screen to contact any one of them.
00:55:59.679 --> 00:56:17.519
And I hope that you've learned something valuable about not just data centers, but more importantly, the process and why it is critical that every municipality in Berks County adopt an enforceable data center ordinance.
00:56:17.760 --> 00:56:26.639
I'm your host, Berks County Commissioner Christian Leinbach, thanking you for joining us for another edition of County Connection.
