WEBVTT
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After divorce, the thought of letting someone else close again brings up a lot of questions.
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Can I trust myself?
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Will I feel comfortable in my own body?
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And how do I ask for what I need?
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Today I'm Bent Not Broken.
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I'm joined by Hannah Smith, a licensed counselor and certified sex therapist who helps individuals and couples explore identity, intimacy, and self-acceptance.
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Her approach centers on helping people understand themselves and build connections where they can be who they truly are.
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We're talking about rebuilding confidence, finding your voice, and approaching intimacy on your own terms.
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Hannah, welcome to the show.
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Hi, thank you for having me.
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Let's get started.
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What drew you to counseling and sex therapy?
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And what do you wish more people understood about your work?
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Oh, goodness.
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Okay.
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So that could be a very long story to make it a little bit shorter.
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I am somebody who has a long history of interrogating the inside of my own mind.
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I started doing it when I was in childhood and needed to learn a lot about myself.
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For my entire life, I've always been very interested in how people work and how I work.
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As I got older, I started to realize that I am very comfortable with sexual topics in the way that some other practitioners maybe aren't so much.
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Everybody is really good at what they do, but there is a need and a niche for people who are comfortable talking about sexual topics.
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I really enjoy that work.
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I think it's a lot of fun, honestly.
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And so that's what really drew me to putting my interest in counseling into specifically sex therapy.
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Okay.
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I want to go back to something you just said about interrogating yourself in your own mind.
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I know I'm guilty of this as well.
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We all have those thoughts and doubts.
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And we ask ourselves, you know, am I good enough?
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Will I be loved?
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All of those things.
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Are those the kind of thoughts that you were interrogating yourself with?
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Oh, God.
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Yeah, I'm sure that came up quite a lot.
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So the full story is I am a neurodivergent person and didn't know until I was an adult.
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And so what that sounded like for me was more so like, oh, literally, how does this world work?
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How do people work?
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It seems like I think about things a little bit differently than maybe some other people do, which is part of why within sex therapy, I also specialize in working with folks who are outside the norm and other neurodivergent folks.
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A lot of what I was figuring out was the literal patterns of how do people's behaviors then influence their thoughts, then influence their emotions, and then influence their reactions, and starting to build an understanding of how all of those pieces start to work together, which is really interesting when you're doing therapeutic work because people are always coming in and asking, why is my brain doing this?
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Or why do I have this feeling that I can't let go of, or this fear that I can't let go of?
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And so I do a lot of work in helping people break down the process into their pieces and parts so we can identify what isn't working for them and start to actually change some of those behaviors.
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We don't really change thoughts and feelings because that's impossible.
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You don't do that.
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But we do change some of the behaviors and choices so that people start to move more where they want to go.
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Okay.
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Now, when women leave a marriage, a lot of times they feel like they've lost themselves in that marriage.
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And how can they begin reconnecting with who they are and what they truly want?
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Oh, yeah, that's a so big question into a small space.
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One of the first things we'd want to look at is what exactly do they think they feel like they've lost?
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When people come and see me, a lot of times what they have they describe losing is their sense of identity or their sense of joy and playfulness, because you can't have good sex if you're not playful.
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And usually by the time people come and see me, especially after a divorce, they've had a long history of having to silence themselves or having to mute their joy or just not being in an environment that was conducive to them finding their joy.
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And so what happens is people come in and realize they don't have a sense of what that even feels like anymore.
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I've seen people who came in after decades of dealing with just trying to survive a bad relationship.
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And they're like, I don't even know what I like.
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I don't know that I ever knew what I liked.
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And so we kind of have to start from the ground up and go with like very basically what feels good to your body, what feels good to your brain, even like non-sexually, is usually where we'd start with that, and start to build into what does joy feel like in your body?
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What are some other ways that you feel that joy?
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Building into finding both the platonic and sexual pleasure that they've lost.
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Interesting.
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You touched on that because many times women, especially coming out of abusive relationships, or maybe there was verbal abuse, maybe some physical abuse, a lot of times their needs were dismissed and maybe even criticized.
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So, how can they begin trusting their own voice again?
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So that's a very good question, and not to provide too simplified of an answer, but really honestly, the first thing is remembering that your body has infinite wisdom.
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Your body and brain are actually really, really, really, really good at taking care of themselves.
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And so usually step one is just learning to listen to yourself again.
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And that can be really hard when you've had a lot of reinforcement.
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You talked about verbally and psychologically abusive relationships.
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When people come out of those spaces where it was not safe to have their own needs and to have their own feelings or even express those to the other person, then just the first step is starting to listen to your own mind and trust your own mind again, and starting to listen to and trust your own body again.
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Neither of these things are capable of lying to you.
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Literally impossible.
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It will never ever lie to you.
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Are there specific exercises that you start working with women coming out of these so they can start learning to listen to what their body is telling them?
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Yeah.
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So your basic mindfulness techniques, I know the cliche is always go do yoga and mindfulness and stuff.
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There's a reason why it's a cliche.
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It's because it's actually really effective.
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And anything that allows you to get back in touch with your body will help with that.
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On a sex therapy specific tool, one of the tools I will use is a protocol called Sensate Focus.
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This can be done either partnered or solo.
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I actually end up having people do this kind of work solo a lot.
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Big thing into small space.
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The point of sensate focus is to focus on your sensations.
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And so we will start with a series of touching exercises that build up over time where you are focusing only on temperature, texture, pressure.
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Anything else is a distraction and you get to ignore it.
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And the whole point of that is to give you something that is not super stressful.
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Sometimes pleasure can be stressful for people to focus on, something that is not abstract.
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So trying to make your brain quiet or do anything with that abstract and will usually stress people out.
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So it's just temperature, texture, pressure.
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Am I feeling hot or cold?
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Am I feeling rough or smooth?
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Am I feeling firm or light?
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And you can do that with yourself in a myriad of different contexts, sexually and not.
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How can experiences in a previous marriage affect someone's comfort with emotional and physical intimacy in a new relationship?
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So our brains measure survival success based on past experience.
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And so what that means, because the only thing your brain ever wants to do is survive a situation.
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It wants to keep the meat puppet alive, right?
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So when you're in a situation where surviving, which doesn't just mean like I'm staying physically alive, but also protecting your mental health as much as possible as well, people build up all sorts of survival strategies for that bad relationship that don't serve them in new relationships.
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So commonly, what this looks like is people experiencing anxiety when they don't expect to experience it, like defensiveness and hesitation, even with a safe partner.
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Actually, the safer the partner, the worse that tends to be.
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Like it's there's so, so, so many things.
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It sounds like one mechanism could be, and I can relate to this.
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I put up walls.
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Yeah.
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I only really want to let people know so much.
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Probably the parts that were safe to let people know.
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And when you're in a maybe controlling or a mentally or physically dangerous relationship, the parts that are safe to let people know become few and far between.
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True.
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And the the catch 22 to this is let's say that you're getting out of that more toxic relationship into one that's really safe.
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Two things happen.
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One, your brain and body have acclimated to the chaos and now think that that is normal.
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And so a thing that bodies do is anything that is new, regardless of how good it is, is gonna be treated with suspicion because it's simply not used to it.
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So actually feeling safe starts to feel weird and scary because you're not acclimated.
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I was just gonna say, so can we put up red flags as a defense?
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Or is that more of something like that comes from the gut that maybe we should be listening to?
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That's a really complex question because, and that's something that we have to work through kind of step by step with clients because sometimes they will see things as red flags that aren't.
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It's like, oh, just because it feels uncomfortable doesn't necessarily mean it's a red flag.
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This is where we get into like what kind of relationship do you want to have?
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What kind of communication style do you want to have?
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How vulnerable do you want that to be?
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And is whatever this person is asking of you in service to that kind of relationship that you want?
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So just being uncomfortable is not necessarily a red flag, but it's not something you want to ignore either.
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Like if you, I'm biased, so I'm like, hey, go work with a therapist.
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But if you don't have a therapist around, ask your friends, ask your family, ask people who you trust.
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Hey, this is happening, please sanity check me on this because I know I'm gonna be a little extra sensitive after what I just came out of.
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No, for a woman who might feel a bit self-conscious about her body after divorce, especially maybe in midlife, what would you encourage her to explore first?
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So part of how part of my way of working, this will not be the same as everybody else, is I'm very much a let your freak flag fly kind of person.
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You have been boxed in long enough.
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Let's not box any of that anymore.
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So it would be like if you want to wear bright colored clothes, do the thing.
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If you want to show skin, do the thing.
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If you want to go dance by yourself or restraint, go do the thing.
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Anything you kind of stopped yourself from doing, asterisk, please try to be physically safe while you do this.
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But anything you have stopped yourself from doing, go do that stuff.
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Because the yes, body-focused stressors, like do I look good enough, certainly have a big thought-based, like cognitive component to them.
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There's a big cultural component too.
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But I'm a, I am a you learn best through experience person.
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And so we can go through those thoughts all day long, but until you actually go out and dance, you're not gonna feel any different.
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Until you wear the bright clothes that you didn't let yourself wear, you're not gonna feel any different.
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You eventually have to go do the thing.
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In other words, face your fears.
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Kind of, yeah.
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Yeah.
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Yeah.
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Now, how can we begin questioning messages we've absorbed about sex, aging, or what it means to be a good wife?
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That feels like a very big question.
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Are there more specific things that you think your viewers would be interested in?
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No, I think it kind of goes back to what I started asking for in the beginning.
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We're talking about coming out of relationships where maybe we've been pigeonholed, maybe we lost our voice, maybe we lost our way.
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We're trying to kind of figure out where we are and maybe you thought you were a good wife, but after coming through a divorce, doubt that.
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And what do these things mean now?
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Now that I'm no longer defined by being a wife and married, being a woman single and learning about herself again.
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Yeah.
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So I think the first thing I would encourage people to do, I do this a lot in my work, just like breaking things down into their bits and pieces.
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One of the things we do a lot is we're looking for definitions of things.
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And so I would be curious about what do you mean by good wife?
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What are the component parts of being a good wife?
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So we can look at, again, what kinds of things do you want to keep?
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What feels like yours, what aligns with your personal values, and what's the stuff that maybe other people or a larger culture or family or your terrible ex or whatever put on you?
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And that's the stuff that we start to get rid of.
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And again, the getting rid of part is very experience-based.
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You kind of have to go through and do the things that are aligned with your own values and not necessarily the stuff that was given to you that doesn't feel like you.
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And that can be a really long and delicate, nuanced maybe process.
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So again, asking your therapist, ask your family, ask your friends, anybody who you trust to give you that good feedback is going to be helpful in helping you figure out what parts are me and what parts were given to me.
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And I don't want to keep any more.
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Yeah, I would tend to agree.
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And I think one of the really important parts of that is going back to the fact that we're using good as a word.
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Like what does good wife actually mean?
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So I generally, this is part of my theoretical orientation in therapy, is I'm an acceptance and commitment therapist without going into all of what that is.
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Essentially, we're not interested in good, bad, right, wrong.
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Those are moral questions that will change based on whoever you ask.
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We're interested in helpful versus unhelpful.
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Is this helping me get toward my goal, or is it not helping me get toward my goal?
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If we're going for dinner on the table at five as the thing, and you're telling me that that doesn't work for you, doesn't feel good for you, that is not one of your goals, then probably the helpful instead of unhelpful behaviors we would choose is okay, as you're dating, communicate that with the people that you're dating.
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Hey, I prefer to eat later, or I don't really like cooking, or whatever.
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Let's do meal planning stuff.
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Don't pretend to do things that don't work for you because those are unhelpful behaviors.
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We don't care about good, bad, right, wrong.
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We care about helpful, unhelpful.
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Love that.
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What can help someone recognize when they feel ready to date again, but especially when loneliness is part of that picture?
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So you'll you'll notice I like to do things kind of in binaries to help things be a little bit more simple.
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So here's another one of the binaries.
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I will always encourage people to make decisions out of abundance and self-love rather than scarcity and fear.
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And so when we're talking loneliness specifically, if you are seeking out partnership because you are afraid you're gonna die alone and you're and you do not believe in your ability to create a happy, healthy life on your own or create community in other ways, I would not encourage you to seek partnership yet.
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Because I want you to feel confident enough in yourself to be able to honestly not fall into the same traps that you fell into in your last relationship.
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I want you to be able to tell people no.
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I want you to be able to tell people yes, I want you to be able to figure out what your boundaries and your requests and your expectations are from a place of I love myself so much and I have such abundant opportunity and care and community that I can bring another person into my already good life.
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Because the other person should not make your life good, they should augment your already existing happiness.
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This is a good segue into my next question.
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What does a healthy conversation about boundaries, consent, and intimacy sound like?
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And could you give us an example of how to start it?
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So when we're having a conversation about boundaries and intimacy, particularly, then this is true for any nuanced, maybe important conversation, then I'm always going to encourage people to talk about things from their perspective, from their needs, their expectations, and their boundaries.
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Another big concept into a small space, boundaries are not about another person's behavior, they're about your own, is what I'm going to do in the face of a certain situation.
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And so what this could sound like, let's say a common one that I see.
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I get people who are concerned about porn use and things like that.
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And so, if we're going to have a conversation about is it okay to talk about porn use?
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Sure.
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Okay, so let's use porn use as the example because it's something that I hear a lot in my practice.
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So people coming in and wanting to talk about what are our boundaries around porn use, then what that conversation can sound like is hey, here's how I feel about porn use.
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Here's my background with that.
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Here are some of my requests for you, because a request is something that the other person can say no to.
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All of healthy communication should be consent-based.
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And then the boundaries might be like, hey, if you are engaging in this kind of thing or you have this preference around porn, then that's not a sexual relationship I necessarily want to engage with.
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And so you are allowed to say those things.
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These conversations, I do not encourage them to be from the perspective of you will do this or you will not do that, because one, that's not consent-based.
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And two, you'll fail because that is all about their behavior, not your own, and you have no control over their behavior.
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So I will always encourage things to be focused on you, using your good I statements, tell people what you want and what you need, and allow them to respond to you, even if it means the relationship may not work out.
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Because saying no shouldn't be the reason why you stay with somebody who doesn't work for you.
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I agree.
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It's about Respect too.
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Yeah.
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When getting to know someone new, what are some signs that they respect your needs and that it's safe to be yourself?
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So, even related to the past example, that the person across from you does not respond with anger at you.
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People are allowed to have their own feelings.
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So frustration can happen sometimes, confusion can happen.
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That's okay.
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It's if it's directed at you, that's not great.
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So they will they can have their own response that is still about them.
00:23:09.240 --> 00:23:11.240
They do not externalize that at you.
00:23:11.400 --> 00:23:14.440
You are not attacked, you are not yelled at, anything like that.
00:23:14.600 --> 00:23:19.560
And they communicate and respect the request and boundary.
00:23:19.720 --> 00:23:29.480
That doesn't always mean that they say yes, but that means that maybe they come back with, okay, I hear you and I understand what you're saying.
00:23:29.640 --> 00:23:31.400
Also, here are my thoughts.
00:23:31.560 --> 00:23:32.680
Is there wiggle room?
00:23:32.759 --> 00:23:34.120
Is there a negotiation?
00:23:34.360 --> 00:23:39.320
And if you say no, then that no is respected, always, every time.
00:23:39.880 --> 00:23:46.040
It's when you say no and it's not respected, and they cross into those boundaries.
00:23:46.360 --> 00:23:47.160
Waving red flags.
00:23:48.920 --> 00:23:50.840
Yes, that's the red flag, right?
00:23:50.920 --> 00:23:55.960
That so many of us can get into trouble, especially as people pleasers.
00:23:56.440 --> 00:23:59.800
You know, that's yeah, people pleasing is a big one.
00:23:59.880 --> 00:24:06.360
And we have to remember that people pleasing is still, like everything else, about us and not about the other person.
00:24:06.440 --> 00:24:11.160
It's you trying to keep yourself safe by managing the other person's feelings.
00:24:11.320 --> 00:24:16.280
That way lies madness because you cannot control another person's feelings.
00:24:16.440 --> 00:24:23.640
Trust me, if I could crack your skull open and turn the feelings dial, all therapy would be one session long and it would take five minutes.
00:24:23.800 --> 00:24:25.480
That is not how it works.
00:24:26.759 --> 00:24:27.880
Understood.
00:24:28.120 --> 00:24:28.759
Yeah.
00:24:29.080 --> 00:24:40.200
So for the woman listening who wonders whether she'll ever feel confident, connected, or comfortable with intimacy again, what's one small step she can take this week?
00:24:42.040 --> 00:24:50.600
I think one small step would be doing something that allows you to make friends with your body.
00:24:51.400 --> 00:24:56.840
So this can be anything from trusting your body to go for a walk.
00:24:57.000 --> 00:25:13.560
It's a little cold here right now, but going and laying in the sunshine and like just trying to notice how the sunshine feels on your skin, like listening to music that you love, like masturbating for the first time in years, like whatever feels good for you.
00:25:13.880 --> 00:25:19.000
Do one thing that helps you trust your body and make friends with it.
00:25:19.160 --> 00:25:24.120
Because it is the only thing you are guaranteed to have until you die.
00:25:24.759 --> 00:25:25.960
Very true.
00:25:27.160 --> 00:25:29.480
Hannah, this has been a great conversation.
00:25:29.720 --> 00:25:32.120
How can people get a hold of you?
00:25:32.200 --> 00:25:33.560
I'll put it in the show notes.
00:25:33.720 --> 00:25:36.840
Do you have a website, a book, anything?
00:25:37.080 --> 00:25:38.200
I do have a website.
00:25:38.440 --> 00:25:43.400
It is hanasmithcounseling.com, all spelled the way you think it is.
00:25:43.720 --> 00:25:48.840
And uh yeah, I have an Instagram, but I don't do a whole lot on it right now.
00:25:48.920 --> 00:25:51.080
So my website is the best way to get to me.
00:25:51.480 --> 00:25:52.520
Okay, sounds good.
00:25:52.759 --> 00:25:53.160
All right.
00:25:53.720 --> 00:25:54.680
Thank you again.
00:25:54.759 --> 00:25:56.360
This has been a great conversation.
00:25:56.600 --> 00:25:58.120
Thank you for having me.
00:00:34.280 --> 00:00:40.359
After divorce, the thought of letting someone else close again brings up a lot of questions.
00:00:40.600 --> 00:00:42.039
Can I trust myself?
00:00:42.359 --> 00:00:45.079
Will I feel comfortable in my own body?
00:00:45.320 --> 00:00:48.120
And how do I ask for what I need?
00:00:48.439 --> 00:00:50.439
Today I'm Bent Not Broken.
00:00:50.519 --> 00:01:02.120
I'm joined by Hannah Smith, a licensed counselor and certified sex therapist who helps individuals and couples explore identity, intimacy, and self-acceptance.
00:01:02.359 --> 00:01:10.280
Her approach centers on helping people understand themselves and build connections where they can be who they truly are.
00:01:10.520 --> 00:01:17.799
We're talking about rebuilding confidence, finding your voice, and approaching intimacy on your own terms.
00:01:18.039 --> 00:01:19.719
Hannah, welcome to the show.
00:01:20.039 --> 00:01:21.560
Hi, thank you for having me.
00:01:21.799 --> 00:01:23.240
Let's get started.
00:01:23.480 --> 00:01:27.480
What drew you to counseling and sex therapy?
00:01:27.560 --> 00:01:31.480
And what do you wish more people understood about your work?
00:01:32.120 --> 00:01:33.079
Oh, goodness.
00:01:33.240 --> 00:01:33.560
Okay.
00:01:33.960 --> 00:01:38.439
So that could be a very long story to make it a little bit shorter.
00:01:38.680 --> 00:01:45.239
I am somebody who has a long history of interrogating the inside of my own mind.
00:01:45.480 --> 00:01:49.799
I started doing it when I was in childhood and needed to learn a lot about myself.
00:01:50.040 --> 00:01:55.320
For my entire life, I've always been very interested in how people work and how I work.
00:01:55.640 --> 00:02:05.959
As I got older, I started to realize that I am very comfortable with sexual topics in the way that some other practitioners maybe aren't so much.
00:02:06.120 --> 00:02:13.800
Everybody is really good at what they do, but there is a need and a niche for people who are comfortable talking about sexual topics.
00:02:13.959 --> 00:02:15.480
I really enjoy that work.
00:02:15.560 --> 00:02:17.639
I think it's a lot of fun, honestly.
00:02:17.800 --> 00:02:25.639
And so that's what really drew me to putting my interest in counseling into specifically sex therapy.
00:02:25.959 --> 00:02:26.280
Okay.
00:02:27.240 --> 00:02:32.519
I want to go back to something you just said about interrogating yourself in your own mind.
00:02:32.759 --> 00:02:34.920
I know I'm guilty of this as well.
00:02:35.079 --> 00:02:37.560
We all have those thoughts and doubts.
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And we ask ourselves, you know, am I good enough?
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Will I be loved?
00:02:42.519 --> 00:02:43.399
All of those things.
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Are those the kind of thoughts that you were interrogating yourself with?
00:02:47.720 --> 00:02:48.199
Oh, God.
00:02:48.439 --> 00:02:51.480
Yeah, I'm sure that came up quite a lot.
00:02:51.720 --> 00:02:57.480
So the full story is I am a neurodivergent person and didn't know until I was an adult.
00:02:57.639 --> 00:03:03.720
And so what that sounded like for me was more so like, oh, literally, how does this world work?
00:03:03.879 --> 00:03:04.920
How do people work?
00:03:05.160 --> 00:03:17.079
It seems like I think about things a little bit differently than maybe some other people do, which is part of why within sex therapy, I also specialize in working with folks who are outside the norm and other neurodivergent folks.
00:03:17.319 --> 00:03:44.120
A lot of what I was figuring out was the literal patterns of how do people's behaviors then influence their thoughts, then influence their emotions, and then influence their reactions, and starting to build an understanding of how all of those pieces start to work together, which is really interesting when you're doing therapeutic work because people are always coming in and asking, why is my brain doing this?
00:03:44.360 --> 00:03:49.240
Or why do I have this feeling that I can't let go of, or this fear that I can't let go of?
00:03:49.399 --> 00:04:04.519
And so I do a lot of work in helping people break down the process into their pieces and parts so we can identify what isn't working for them and start to actually change some of those behaviors.
00:04:04.680 --> 00:04:07.079
We don't really change thoughts and feelings because that's impossible.
00:04:07.160 --> 00:04:07.959
You don't do that.
00:04:08.199 --> 00:04:13.959
But we do change some of the behaviors and choices so that people start to move more where they want to go.
00:04:14.759 --> 00:04:15.079
Okay.
00:04:15.879 --> 00:04:23.319
Now, when women leave a marriage, a lot of times they feel like they've lost themselves in that marriage.
00:04:23.560 --> 00:04:28.600
And how can they begin reconnecting with who they are and what they truly want?
00:04:28.839 --> 00:04:33.959
Oh, yeah, that's a so big question into a small space.
00:04:34.120 --> 00:04:39.639
One of the first things we'd want to look at is what exactly do they think they feel like they've lost?
00:04:39.800 --> 00:04:53.000
When people come and see me, a lot of times what they have they describe losing is their sense of identity or their sense of joy and playfulness, because you can't have good sex if you're not playful.
00:04:53.159 --> 00:05:10.839
And usually by the time people come and see me, especially after a divorce, they've had a long history of having to silence themselves or having to mute their joy or just not being in an environment that was conducive to them finding their joy.
00:05:11.079 --> 00:05:19.319
And so what happens is people come in and realize they don't have a sense of what that even feels like anymore.
00:05:19.479 --> 00:05:26.519
I've seen people who came in after decades of dealing with just trying to survive a bad relationship.
00:05:26.680 --> 00:05:28.759
And they're like, I don't even know what I like.
00:05:28.919 --> 00:05:30.839
I don't know that I ever knew what I liked.
00:05:30.919 --> 00:05:47.159
And so we kind of have to start from the ground up and go with like very basically what feels good to your body, what feels good to your brain, even like non-sexually, is usually where we'd start with that, and start to build into what does joy feel like in your body?
00:05:47.319 --> 00:05:49.719
What are some other ways that you feel that joy?
00:05:50.199 --> 00:05:56.039
Building into finding both the platonic and sexual pleasure that they've lost.
00:05:57.079 --> 00:05:57.959
Interesting.
00:05:58.199 --> 00:06:15.399
You touched on that because many times women, especially coming out of abusive relationships, or maybe there was verbal abuse, maybe some physical abuse, a lot of times their needs were dismissed and maybe even criticized.
00:06:15.560 --> 00:06:20.279
So, how can they begin trusting their own voice again?
00:06:21.639 --> 00:06:37.079
So that's a very good question, and not to provide too simplified of an answer, but really honestly, the first thing is remembering that your body has infinite wisdom.
00:06:37.319 --> 00:06:42.599
Your body and brain are actually really, really, really, really good at taking care of themselves.
00:06:42.839 --> 00:06:47.399
And so usually step one is just learning to listen to yourself again.
00:06:47.560 --> 00:06:50.599
And that can be really hard when you've had a lot of reinforcement.
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You talked about verbally and psychologically abusive relationships.
00:06:54.360 --> 00:07:18.120
When people come out of those spaces where it was not safe to have their own needs and to have their own feelings or even express those to the other person, then just the first step is starting to listen to your own mind and trust your own mind again, and starting to listen to and trust your own body again.
00:07:18.360 --> 00:07:21.479
Neither of these things are capable of lying to you.
00:07:21.639 --> 00:07:22.680
Literally impossible.
00:07:22.759 --> 00:07:24.360
It will never ever lie to you.
00:07:24.759 --> 00:07:36.279
Are there specific exercises that you start working with women coming out of these so they can start learning to listen to what their body is telling them?
00:07:36.519 --> 00:07:36.919
Yeah.
00:07:37.079 --> 00:07:42.279
So your basic mindfulness techniques, I know the cliche is always go do yoga and mindfulness and stuff.
00:07:42.439 --> 00:07:43.959
There's a reason why it's a cliche.
00:07:44.199 --> 00:07:46.360
It's because it's actually really effective.
00:07:46.439 --> 00:07:51.800
And anything that allows you to get back in touch with your body will help with that.
00:07:51.959 --> 00:07:59.560
On a sex therapy specific tool, one of the tools I will use is a protocol called Sensate Focus.
00:07:59.719 --> 00:08:02.439
This can be done either partnered or solo.
00:08:02.599 --> 00:08:06.279
I actually end up having people do this kind of work solo a lot.
00:08:06.599 --> 00:08:08.680
Big thing into small space.
00:08:08.839 --> 00:08:13.240
The point of sensate focus is to focus on your sensations.
00:08:13.560 --> 00:08:24.199
And so we will start with a series of touching exercises that build up over time where you are focusing only on temperature, texture, pressure.
00:08:24.439 --> 00:08:27.240
Anything else is a distraction and you get to ignore it.
00:08:27.399 --> 00:08:34.039
And the whole point of that is to give you something that is not super stressful.
00:08:34.200 --> 00:08:39.560
Sometimes pleasure can be stressful for people to focus on, something that is not abstract.
00:08:39.720 --> 00:08:46.360
So trying to make your brain quiet or do anything with that abstract and will usually stress people out.
00:08:46.519 --> 00:08:49.159
So it's just temperature, texture, pressure.
00:08:49.320 --> 00:08:51.080
Am I feeling hot or cold?
00:08:51.320 --> 00:08:53.320
Am I feeling rough or smooth?
00:08:53.480 --> 00:08:55.399
Am I feeling firm or light?
00:08:55.560 --> 00:09:00.759
And you can do that with yourself in a myriad of different contexts, sexually and not.
00:09:01.399 --> 00:09:09.639
How can experiences in a previous marriage affect someone's comfort with emotional and physical intimacy in a new relationship?
00:09:10.039 --> 00:09:17.159
So our brains measure survival success based on past experience.
00:09:17.319 --> 00:09:21.960
And so what that means, because the only thing your brain ever wants to do is survive a situation.
00:09:22.039 --> 00:09:24.600
It wants to keep the meat puppet alive, right?
00:09:25.000 --> 00:09:48.919
So when you're in a situation where surviving, which doesn't just mean like I'm staying physically alive, but also protecting your mental health as much as possible as well, people build up all sorts of survival strategies for that bad relationship that don't serve them in new relationships.
00:09:49.080 --> 00:10:01.960
So commonly, what this looks like is people experiencing anxiety when they don't expect to experience it, like defensiveness and hesitation, even with a safe partner.
00:10:02.120 --> 00:10:05.240
Actually, the safer the partner, the worse that tends to be.
00:10:05.480 --> 00:10:08.919
Like it's there's so, so, so many things.
00:10:09.319 --> 00:10:12.759
It sounds like one mechanism could be, and I can relate to this.
00:10:13.319 --> 00:10:14.759
I put up walls.
00:10:15.159 --> 00:10:15.559
Yeah.
00:10:15.879 --> 00:10:19.639
I only really want to let people know so much.
00:10:20.759 --> 00:10:23.639
Probably the parts that were safe to let people know.
00:10:23.879 --> 00:10:34.919
And when you're in a maybe controlling or a mentally or physically dangerous relationship, the parts that are safe to let people know become few and far between.
00:10:35.399 --> 00:10:36.039
True.
00:10:36.279 --> 00:10:44.919
And the the catch 22 to this is let's say that you're getting out of that more toxic relationship into one that's really safe.
00:10:45.080 --> 00:10:46.279
Two things happen.
00:10:46.600 --> 00:10:52.199
One, your brain and body have acclimated to the chaos and now think that that is normal.
00:10:52.279 --> 00:11:03.480
And so a thing that bodies do is anything that is new, regardless of how good it is, is gonna be treated with suspicion because it's simply not used to it.
00:11:03.639 --> 00:11:10.039
So actually feeling safe starts to feel weird and scary because you're not acclimated.
00:11:10.439 --> 00:11:16.519
I was just gonna say, so can we put up red flags as a defense?
00:11:16.600 --> 00:11:21.960
Or is that more of something like that comes from the gut that maybe we should be listening to?
00:11:22.360 --> 00:11:34.199
That's a really complex question because, and that's something that we have to work through kind of step by step with clients because sometimes they will see things as red flags that aren't.
00:11:34.279 --> 00:11:39.080
It's like, oh, just because it feels uncomfortable doesn't necessarily mean it's a red flag.
00:11:39.319 --> 00:11:43.559
This is where we get into like what kind of relationship do you want to have?
00:11:43.720 --> 00:11:46.039
What kind of communication style do you want to have?
00:11:46.199 --> 00:11:48.279
How vulnerable do you want that to be?
00:11:48.600 --> 00:11:56.120
And is whatever this person is asking of you in service to that kind of relationship that you want?
00:11:56.360 --> 00:12:01.639
So just being uncomfortable is not necessarily a red flag, but it's not something you want to ignore either.
00:12:01.799 --> 00:12:05.720
Like if you, I'm biased, so I'm like, hey, go work with a therapist.
00:12:05.879 --> 00:12:11.000
But if you don't have a therapist around, ask your friends, ask your family, ask people who you trust.
00:12:11.240 --> 00:12:19.879
Hey, this is happening, please sanity check me on this because I know I'm gonna be a little extra sensitive after what I just came out of.
00:12:20.840 --> 00:12:32.199
No, for a woman who might feel a bit self-conscious about her body after divorce, especially maybe in midlife, what would you encourage her to explore first?
00:12:33.159 --> 00:12:45.799
So part of how part of my way of working, this will not be the same as everybody else, is I'm very much a let your freak flag fly kind of person.
00:12:46.039 --> 00:12:47.720
You have been boxed in long enough.
00:12:47.879 --> 00:12:49.480
Let's not box any of that anymore.
00:12:49.639 --> 00:12:53.799
So it would be like if you want to wear bright colored clothes, do the thing.
00:12:53.960 --> 00:12:55.639
If you want to show skin, do the thing.
00:12:55.799 --> 00:12:59.399
If you want to go dance by yourself or restraint, go do the thing.
00:12:59.559 --> 00:13:05.720
Anything you kind of stopped yourself from doing, asterisk, please try to be physically safe while you do this.
00:13:05.879 --> 00:13:10.679
But anything you have stopped yourself from doing, go do that stuff.
00:13:11.000 --> 00:13:22.439
Because the yes, body-focused stressors, like do I look good enough, certainly have a big thought-based, like cognitive component to them.
00:13:22.600 --> 00:13:24.439
There's a big cultural component too.
00:13:24.679 --> 00:13:28.759
But I'm a, I am a you learn best through experience person.
00:13:29.000 --> 00:13:35.159
And so we can go through those thoughts all day long, but until you actually go out and dance, you're not gonna feel any different.
00:13:35.319 --> 00:13:39.639
Until you wear the bright clothes that you didn't let yourself wear, you're not gonna feel any different.
00:13:39.720 --> 00:13:41.799
You eventually have to go do the thing.
00:13:42.439 --> 00:13:44.439
In other words, face your fears.
00:13:44.759 --> 00:13:45.960
Kind of, yeah.
00:13:47.000 --> 00:13:47.480
Yeah.
00:13:47.960 --> 00:13:48.279
Yeah.
00:13:49.399 --> 00:13:57.080
Now, how can we begin questioning messages we've absorbed about sex, aging, or what it means to be a good wife?
00:13:57.480 --> 00:13:59.720
That feels like a very big question.
00:13:59.960 --> 00:14:04.439
Are there more specific things that you think your viewers would be interested in?
00:14:05.960 --> 00:14:10.039
No, I think it kind of goes back to what I started asking for in the beginning.
00:14:10.199 --> 00:14:18.360
We're talking about coming out of relationships where maybe we've been pigeonholed, maybe we lost our voice, maybe we lost our way.
00:14:18.519 --> 00:14:29.799
We're trying to kind of figure out where we are and maybe you thought you were a good wife, but after coming through a divorce, doubt that.
00:14:30.039 --> 00:14:32.919
And what do these things mean now?
00:14:33.480 --> 00:14:46.279
Now that I'm no longer defined by being a wife and married, being a woman single and learning about herself again.
00:14:46.519 --> 00:14:47.080
Yeah.
00:14:47.319 --> 00:14:55.720
So I think the first thing I would encourage people to do, I do this a lot in my work, just like breaking things down into their bits and pieces.
00:14:55.960 --> 00:15:00.120
One of the things we do a lot is we're looking for definitions of things.
00:15:00.279 --> 00:15:04.120
And so I would be curious about what do you mean by good wife?
00:15:04.279 --> 00:15:07.960
What are the component parts of being a good wife?
00:15:08.120 --> 00:15:12.840
So we can look at, again, what kinds of things do you want to keep?
00:15:12.919 --> 00:15:25.480
What feels like yours, what aligns with your personal values, and what's the stuff that maybe other people or a larger culture or family or your terrible ex or whatever put on you?
00:15:25.639 --> 00:15:30.519
And that's the stuff that we start to get rid of.
00:15:30.679 --> 00:15:34.519
And again, the getting rid of part is very experience-based.
00:15:34.759 --> 00:15:44.360
You kind of have to go through and do the things that are aligned with your own values and not necessarily the stuff that was given to you that doesn't feel like you.
00:15:44.519 --> 00:15:52.039
And that can be a really long and delicate, nuanced maybe process.
00:15:52.279 --> 00:16:06.679
So again, asking your therapist, ask your family, ask your friends, anybody who you trust to give you that good feedback is going to be helpful in helping you figure out what parts are me and what parts were given to me.
00:16:06.759 --> 00:16:08.439
And I don't want to keep any more.
00:16:58.519 --> 00:17:00.519
Yeah, I would tend to agree.
00:17:00.759 --> 00:17:09.319
And I think one of the really important parts of that is going back to the fact that we're using good as a word.
00:17:09.480 --> 00:17:12.759
Like what does good wife actually mean?
00:17:13.080 --> 00:17:23.240
So I generally, this is part of my theoretical orientation in therapy, is I'm an acceptance and commitment therapist without going into all of what that is.
00:17:23.559 --> 00:17:28.440
Essentially, we're not interested in good, bad, right, wrong.
00:17:28.600 --> 00:17:33.240
Those are moral questions that will change based on whoever you ask.
00:17:33.480 --> 00:17:36.840
We're interested in helpful versus unhelpful.
00:17:37.000 --> 00:17:41.320
Is this helping me get toward my goal, or is it not helping me get toward my goal?
00:17:41.480 --> 00:18:03.400
If we're going for dinner on the table at five as the thing, and you're telling me that that doesn't work for you, doesn't feel good for you, that is not one of your goals, then probably the helpful instead of unhelpful behaviors we would choose is okay, as you're dating, communicate that with the people that you're dating.
00:18:03.640 --> 00:18:09.320
Hey, I prefer to eat later, or I don't really like cooking, or whatever.
00:18:09.480 --> 00:18:11.080
Let's do meal planning stuff.
00:18:11.320 --> 00:18:17.880
Don't pretend to do things that don't work for you because those are unhelpful behaviors.
00:18:18.040 --> 00:18:19.560
We don't care about good, bad, right, wrong.
00:18:19.640 --> 00:18:21.320
We care about helpful, unhelpful.
00:18:21.640 --> 00:18:22.440
Love that.
00:18:23.800 --> 00:18:31.640
What can help someone recognize when they feel ready to date again, but especially when loneliness is part of that picture?
00:18:32.600 --> 00:18:39.000
So you'll you'll notice I like to do things kind of in binaries to help things be a little bit more simple.
00:18:39.080 --> 00:18:40.840
So here's another one of the binaries.
00:18:41.080 --> 00:18:50.600
I will always encourage people to make decisions out of abundance and self-love rather than scarcity and fear.
00:18:50.840 --> 00:19:14.440
And so when we're talking loneliness specifically, if you are seeking out partnership because you are afraid you're gonna die alone and you're and you do not believe in your ability to create a happy, healthy life on your own or create community in other ways, I would not encourage you to seek partnership yet.
00:19:14.759 --> 00:19:24.759
Because I want you to feel confident enough in yourself to be able to honestly not fall into the same traps that you fell into in your last relationship.
00:19:24.920 --> 00:19:27.560
I want you to be able to tell people no.
00:19:27.720 --> 00:19:48.759
I want you to be able to tell people yes, I want you to be able to figure out what your boundaries and your requests and your expectations are from a place of I love myself so much and I have such abundant opportunity and care and community that I can bring another person into my already good life.
00:19:48.920 --> 00:19:55.240
Because the other person should not make your life good, they should augment your already existing happiness.
00:19:56.440 --> 00:19:59.160
This is a good segue into my next question.
00:19:59.400 --> 00:20:04.600
What does a healthy conversation about boundaries, consent, and intimacy sound like?
00:20:04.759 --> 00:20:08.040
And could you give us an example of how to start it?
00:20:08.520 --> 00:20:31.560
So when we're having a conversation about boundaries and intimacy, particularly, then this is true for any nuanced, maybe important conversation, then I'm always going to encourage people to talk about things from their perspective, from their needs, their expectations, and their boundaries.
00:20:31.720 --> 00:20:40.759
Another big concept into a small space, boundaries are not about another person's behavior, they're about your own, is what I'm going to do in the face of a certain situation.
00:20:41.000 --> 00:20:45.720
And so what this could sound like, let's say a common one that I see.
00:20:45.880 --> 00:20:51.160
I get people who are concerned about porn use and things like that.
00:20:51.400 --> 00:20:56.759
And so, if we're going to have a conversation about is it okay to talk about porn use?
00:20:57.000 --> 00:20:57.560
Sure.
00:20:58.040 --> 00:21:06.200
Okay, so let's use porn use as the example because it's something that I hear a lot in my practice.
00:21:06.520 --> 00:21:18.759
So people coming in and wanting to talk about what are our boundaries around porn use, then what that conversation can sound like is hey, here's how I feel about porn use.
00:21:19.080 --> 00:21:21.640
Here's my background with that.
00:21:22.040 --> 00:21:28.440
Here are some of my requests for you, because a request is something that the other person can say no to.
00:21:28.600 --> 00:21:32.360
All of healthy communication should be consent-based.
00:21:32.680 --> 00:21:46.840
And then the boundaries might be like, hey, if you are engaging in this kind of thing or you have this preference around porn, then that's not a sexual relationship I necessarily want to engage with.
00:21:47.000 --> 00:21:49.560
And so you are allowed to say those things.
00:21:49.880 --> 00:22:01.160
These conversations, I do not encourage them to be from the perspective of you will do this or you will not do that, because one, that's not consent-based.
00:22:01.320 --> 00:22:09.720
And two, you'll fail because that is all about their behavior, not your own, and you have no control over their behavior.
00:22:09.960 --> 00:22:25.720
So I will always encourage things to be focused on you, using your good I statements, tell people what you want and what you need, and allow them to respond to you, even if it means the relationship may not work out.
00:22:25.960 --> 00:22:32.200
Because saying no shouldn't be the reason why you stay with somebody who doesn't work for you.
00:22:32.520 --> 00:22:33.000
I agree.
00:22:33.080 --> 00:22:34.600
It's about Respect too.
00:22:34.759 --> 00:22:35.400
Yeah.
00:22:36.040 --> 00:22:43.960
When getting to know someone new, what are some signs that they respect your needs and that it's safe to be yourself?
00:22:45.080 --> 00:22:54.520
So, even related to the past example, that the person across from you does not respond with anger at you.
00:22:54.680 --> 00:22:56.440
People are allowed to have their own feelings.
00:22:56.520 --> 00:22:59.720
So frustration can happen sometimes, confusion can happen.
00:22:59.880 --> 00:23:00.600
That's okay.
00:23:00.759 --> 00:23:03.640
It's if it's directed at you, that's not great.
00:23:03.960 --> 00:23:09.080
So they will they can have their own response that is still about them.
00:23:09.240 --> 00:23:11.240
They do not externalize that at you.
00:23:11.400 --> 00:23:14.440
You are not attacked, you are not yelled at, anything like that.
00:23:14.600 --> 00:23:19.560
And they communicate and respect the request and boundary.
00:23:19.720 --> 00:23:29.480
That doesn't always mean that they say yes, but that means that maybe they come back with, okay, I hear you and I understand what you're saying.
00:23:29.640 --> 00:23:31.400
Also, here are my thoughts.
00:23:31.560 --> 00:23:32.680
Is there wiggle room?
00:23:32.759 --> 00:23:34.120
Is there a negotiation?
00:23:34.360 --> 00:23:39.320
And if you say no, then that no is respected, always, every time.
00:23:39.880 --> 00:23:46.040
It's when you say no and it's not respected, and they cross into those boundaries.
00:23:46.360 --> 00:23:47.160
Waving red flags.
00:23:48.920 --> 00:23:50.840
Yes, that's the red flag, right?
00:23:50.920 --> 00:23:55.960
That so many of us can get into trouble, especially as people pleasers.
00:23:56.440 --> 00:23:59.800
You know, that's yeah, people pleasing is a big one.
00:23:59.880 --> 00:24:06.360
And we have to remember that people pleasing is still, like everything else, about us and not about the other person.
00:24:06.440 --> 00:24:11.160
It's you trying to keep yourself safe by managing the other person's feelings.
00:24:11.320 --> 00:24:16.280
That way lies madness because you cannot control another person's feelings.
00:24:16.440 --> 00:24:23.640
Trust me, if I could crack your skull open and turn the feelings dial, all therapy would be one session long and it would take five minutes.
00:24:23.800 --> 00:24:25.480
That is not how it works.
00:24:26.759 --> 00:24:27.880
Understood.
00:24:28.120 --> 00:24:28.759
Yeah.
00:24:29.080 --> 00:24:40.200
So for the woman listening who wonders whether she'll ever feel confident, connected, or comfortable with intimacy again, what's one small step she can take this week?
00:24:42.040 --> 00:24:50.600
I think one small step would be doing something that allows you to make friends with your body.
00:24:51.400 --> 00:24:56.840
So this can be anything from trusting your body to go for a walk.
00:24:57.000 --> 00:25:13.560
It's a little cold here right now, but going and laying in the sunshine and like just trying to notice how the sunshine feels on your skin, like listening to music that you love, like masturbating for the first time in years, like whatever feels good for you.
00:25:13.880 --> 00:25:19.000
Do one thing that helps you trust your body and make friends with it.
00:25:19.160 --> 00:25:24.120
Because it is the only thing you are guaranteed to have until you die.
00:25:24.759 --> 00:25:25.960
Very true.
00:25:27.160 --> 00:25:29.480
Hannah, this has been a great conversation.
00:25:29.720 --> 00:25:32.120
How can people get a hold of you?
00:25:32.200 --> 00:25:33.560
I'll put it in the show notes.
00:25:33.720 --> 00:25:36.840
Do you have a website, a book, anything?
00:25:37.080 --> 00:25:38.200
I do have a website.
00:25:38.440 --> 00:25:43.400
It is hanasmithcounseling.com, all spelled the way you think it is.
00:25:43.720 --> 00:25:48.840
And uh yeah, I have an Instagram, but I don't do a whole lot on it right now.
00:25:48.920 --> 00:25:51.080
So my website is the best way to get to me.
00:25:51.480 --> 00:25:52.520
Okay, sounds good.
00:25:52.759 --> 00:25:53.160
All right.
00:25:53.720 --> 00:25:54.680
Thank you again.
00:25:54.759 --> 00:25:56.360
This has been a great conversation.
00:25:56.600 --> 00:25:58.120
Thank you for having me.
