Lifestyle Support for Complex Pets

WEBVTT
00:00:00.640 --> 00:00:01.439
Beep beep.
00:00:02.080 --> 00:00:02.959
Beep beep beep.
00:00:03.279 --> 00:00:07.679
Yeah, John loves outtakes, so um just keep listening at the end.
00:00:07.759 --> 00:00:10.480
There's gonna be all kinds of fun things that happen there.
00:00:13.519 --> 00:00:15.039
Welcome, Hive Mind.
00:00:15.199 --> 00:00:17.760
We are buzzing with excitement about today's guests.
00:00:17.920 --> 00:00:18.480
We have Dr.
00:00:18.640 --> 00:00:21.760
Elise Christensen Bell and Ursa Aikri.
00:00:22.239 --> 00:00:22.480
Dr.
00:00:22.719 --> 00:00:29.760
C is a Cornell-trained veterinary behaviorist and every high school parent's nightmare, a pet psychiatrist.
00:00:31.039 --> 00:00:35.759
Brilliant struggling animals are the only puzzles that she wants to solve.
00:00:36.000 --> 00:00:36.240
Dr.
00:00:36.399 --> 00:00:42.399
C is joining us to talk about her new adventures in the field of veterinary behavior medicine with Ursa.
00:00:42.799 --> 00:00:51.840
Ursa is a certified dog behavior consultant and certified dog behavior consultant with over 20 years working with the toughest behavioral cases.
00:00:52.079 --> 00:01:00.000
She founded Canis Major Training in Denver, managed behavior programs for the Kentucky Humane Society and the Dumb Friends League.
00:01:00.159 --> 00:01:09.840
She did behavior research with Hill's Pet Nutrition and was the onset trainer for the AKC's All Kinds Super Bowl campaign this past February.
00:01:10.319 --> 00:01:12.159
I am your co-host, Dr.
00:01:12.239 --> 00:01:15.840
Amy Pike, a board-certified veterinary behaviorist.
00:01:16.079 --> 00:01:17.680
And I love that Dr.
00:01:17.760 --> 00:01:21.680
Christensen was every high school parent's nightmare.
00:01:21.840 --> 00:01:23.120
I don't think that's the reason.
00:01:23.359 --> 00:01:24.239
I don't think that's the reason.
00:01:24.560 --> 00:01:29.599
I think there's probably other nefarious reasons that we were just not maybe gonna cover on today's podcast.
00:01:30.879 --> 00:01:34.400
There's some secrets, some skeletons in the clubs of another podcast episode.
00:01:34.640 --> 00:01:34.879
100%.
00:01:36.480 --> 00:01:38.640
And I am your other co-host, Dr.
00:01:38.719 --> 00:01:41.840
Amy Lern, also a board-certified veterinary behaviorist.
00:01:42.000 --> 00:01:45.760
Um we're so excited for you to be our guests on this podcast.
00:01:45.920 --> 00:01:47.359
I we're already having fun.
00:01:47.519 --> 00:01:50.480
I think this episode is gonna be fun in so many different ways.
00:01:50.719 --> 00:01:52.480
We're gonna love talking to you.
00:01:52.799 --> 00:02:03.920
And I am so interested in this new thing that you are creating, this new format that you're rolling out so that we can um kind of talk about supporting pet parents.
00:02:04.159 --> 00:02:10.479
We are rolling out a new format for our podcast, so there's gonna be all kinds of different fun slip-ups and mistakes.
00:02:11.120 --> 00:02:13.680
That's just gonna be fun from every avenue.
00:02:14.560 --> 00:02:15.439
We're here for it.
00:02:15.680 --> 00:02:16.960
Yay! Excellent.
00:02:17.360 --> 00:02:18.400
York guinea pigs.
00:02:18.479 --> 00:02:19.280
Oh my goodness.
00:02:19.520 --> 00:02:24.719
So, of course, everybody knows that we are coming to you live from the PRN PharmaCal Studios.
00:02:24.879 --> 00:02:27.360
Hey, do you guys know what PRN stands for?
00:02:27.599 --> 00:02:30.719
Uh, yeah, Perimenopausal raised raise.
00:02:34.879 --> 00:02:37.840
Uh I don't actually think that's what it stands for, though.
00:02:37.919 --> 00:02:38.479
That is true.
00:02:38.960 --> 00:02:39.280
That is true.
00:02:40.159 --> 00:02:45.520
And also should be investigated further, but but that's not really what PRN stands for.
00:02:45.840 --> 00:02:49.439
It's actually a Latin phrase meaning as the circumstance arises.
00:02:49.759 --> 00:03:01.759
And do you know how long the veterinary community has been trusting PRN PharmaCal to be here when needed, with industry-leading research and innovative products to improve animal health and quality of life?
00:03:02.000 --> 00:03:08.479
Yes, since 1978, they've been at it as long as NASA has had female astronauts.
00:03:08.639 --> 00:03:09.199
Isn't that cool?
00:03:09.439 --> 00:03:09.919
Woman power.
00:03:10.159 --> 00:03:14.479
I know I think we are, yeah, women, pyramidoponal rage.
00:03:14.560 --> 00:03:17.039
We're talking about all kinds of girl problems.
00:03:17.439 --> 00:03:17.599
Right?
00:03:17.919 --> 00:03:18.879
Equality.
00:03:19.199 --> 00:03:19.919
Oh my goodness.
00:03:20.240 --> 00:03:32.479
PRN Pharmacal is a proud sponsor of the Behavior Buzz podcast and is committed to the physical and emotional health of animals everywhere, which makes sense why their slogan is PRN Pharmacal here when you need us.
00:03:32.800 --> 00:03:33.199
Nice.
00:03:33.439 --> 00:03:38.000
So let's get started by finding out what's getting us all buzzed today.
00:03:38.240 --> 00:03:39.680
I was doing some searching.
00:03:39.840 --> 00:03:47.520
I was trying to stay on theme, but then I got a little distracted because then I looked up like them cocktails and then went down a rabbit hole.
00:03:47.759 --> 00:03:50.639
And so I found the devil's margarita.
00:03:50.800 --> 00:03:52.080
And I was like, I love it.
00:03:52.319 --> 00:03:54.479
That's calling my name, I think I'm for sure.
00:03:55.280 --> 00:03:56.240
That's what I'm gonna have.
00:03:56.400 --> 00:03:57.439
I'm having that one.
00:03:57.680 --> 00:04:02.719
And that is just simply lime juice, simple syrup, tequila with red wine.
00:04:02.879 --> 00:04:04.560
Oh, that's so interesting.
00:04:04.879 --> 00:04:06.240
That's a weird combo.
00:04:06.719 --> 00:04:06.960
It is.
00:04:07.280 --> 00:04:08.159
How is it?
00:04:08.479 --> 00:04:09.520
It's delicious.
00:04:09.759 --> 00:04:11.120
Oh, nice, nice, nice.
00:04:11.439 --> 00:04:13.840
I'm drinking one that has kind of similar ingredients.
00:04:13.919 --> 00:04:19.600
It's actually called the Hot Flesh, uh, which I thought appropriate for my parametapazal rage.
00:04:19.839 --> 00:04:26.959
Um, it's also made with blanco tequila, lime juice, orange juice, muddled jalapenos, and a tahine rim.
00:04:27.279 --> 00:04:28.959
What about you, Elise and Ursa?
00:04:29.120 --> 00:04:30.079
What are y'all drinking?
00:04:30.399 --> 00:04:33.120
Well, it's, you know, morning here.
00:04:33.439 --> 00:04:36.160
So I couldn't do the whole bus thing.
00:04:36.240 --> 00:04:37.439
So I have a mocktail.
00:04:37.680 --> 00:04:38.879
I decided, I couldn't decide.
00:04:38.959 --> 00:04:44.319
I was like, should I be on theme and make a really complex one, or should be also on theme by making complexity simple?
00:04:44.480 --> 00:04:48.639
So I just went with this lovely hibiscus ginger beer.
00:04:48.720 --> 00:04:49.040
Oh, pretty.
00:04:49.279 --> 00:04:56.240
Rimmed with a salty hibiscus combination and um crushed ice and a little bit of lime.
00:04:56.399 --> 00:04:56.800
That looks like it's a little bit.
00:04:56.879 --> 00:04:57.920
Oh my gosh, that's amazing.
00:04:58.160 --> 00:04:58.639
It has no name.
00:04:58.720 --> 00:05:00.399
I'm just gonna call it the Wednesday morning.
00:05:00.639 --> 00:05:00.959
Perfect.
00:05:01.839 --> 00:05:05.839
And save it for tonight, and you can have the Wednesday night with some vodka in it.
00:05:06.000 --> 00:05:06.160
Yeah.
00:05:06.319 --> 00:05:06.399
Yeah.
00:05:06.720 --> 00:05:08.240
Or tequila, since that's the theme.
00:05:08.399 --> 00:05:08.560
Yeah.
00:05:08.720 --> 00:05:09.360
But evidently.
00:05:09.600 --> 00:05:10.560
Sounds great.
00:05:11.120 --> 00:05:12.399
What about you, Ursa?
00:05:12.959 --> 00:05:16.879
You know, I'm gonna be the boring one today uh because it is morning.
00:05:17.040 --> 00:05:20.720
Um, I am drinking a double espresso with oat milk.
00:05:20.959 --> 00:05:23.759
Um, but it's out of my favorite mug.
00:05:23.920 --> 00:05:24.720
It inspires me.
00:05:24.800 --> 00:05:26.240
It says the hell I won't.
00:05:29.439 --> 00:05:31.279
So that's the energy I'm gonna bring.
00:05:31.360 --> 00:05:32.079
But that's perfect.
00:05:32.319 --> 00:05:36.399
If I were to choose a cocktail cocktail, it would be a Corpse Survivor number two.
00:05:36.639 --> 00:05:42.240
Oh, which is gin, Lilla Blanc, and lemon juice in absinthe.
00:05:42.480 --> 00:05:44.560
So delicious.
00:05:44.879 --> 00:05:45.519
We'll have to try that.
00:05:45.759 --> 00:05:46.879
That sounds amazing.
00:05:47.120 --> 00:05:52.160
Maybe I'll have one later in honor of the podcast when it's when it's happy hour here.
00:05:53.519 --> 00:05:53.680
Yeah.
00:05:54.000 --> 00:05:55.839
It's five o'clock anywhere sometime.
00:05:56.000 --> 00:05:56.240
True.
00:05:56.480 --> 00:05:56.959
That is true.
00:05:59.600 --> 00:06:01.279
It's five o'clock anywhere sometime.
00:06:01.600 --> 00:06:02.000
Sometime.
00:06:02.480 --> 00:06:04.800
At any point in time, it's five o'clock.
00:06:05.439 --> 00:06:08.000
Clearly, I've had too much to drink already.
00:06:08.160 --> 00:06:10.639
So I want a t-shirt that's missing.
00:06:13.199 --> 00:06:15.680
Oh my gosh, remember Hive Mind.
00:06:15.920 --> 00:06:19.759
You can find all of our signature cocktail and mock tile recipes on our website.
00:06:19.839 --> 00:06:22.160
That's behaviorbuzz.com.
00:06:22.319 --> 00:06:25.600
Behaviorbuzz with a half a dozen C's.
00:06:27.120 --> 00:06:28.800
So many Zs.
00:06:30.879 --> 00:06:31.519
I'm out.
00:06:31.600 --> 00:06:34.720
I can't think of any more Z words, so I just came up.
00:06:37.759 --> 00:06:41.040
So let's dive into our actual conversation.
00:06:41.199 --> 00:06:43.519
Enough fooling around you hooligans.
00:06:44.319 --> 00:06:45.120
Several.
00:06:46.560 --> 00:06:53.439
What I would like to know, I want to start with um uh each of us kind of getting to know you guys a little bit better.
00:06:53.600 --> 00:06:54.160
So, Dr.
00:06:54.319 --> 00:06:59.920
C, how and when did you decide that you wanted to be a veterinarian and a behavior specialist?
00:07:00.079 --> 00:07:03.439
I know the story, and I'm so excited for everybody else to know too.
00:07:03.759 --> 00:07:06.160
I hope I remember what story I told you.
00:07:07.839 --> 00:07:10.240
So to truth say a lie.
00:07:10.879 --> 00:07:11.600
I know, right?
00:07:11.680 --> 00:07:19.120
So I always wanted to be veterinarian as soon as I met my first veterinarian, which was an old-time country vet that saw my first dog.
00:07:19.279 --> 00:07:22.800
He did a magic trick, he saw my dog, and I was like, this is it, this is the job for me.
00:07:22.879 --> 00:07:25.439
And I was probably like, I don't know, four or something.
00:07:25.680 --> 00:07:29.680
But I decided to become a veterinary behaviorist when I was 16.
00:07:29.759 --> 00:07:36.639
And I remember the day I left class early because I finished a vocabulary test before everybody else, and I was bored.
00:07:36.800 --> 00:07:39.680
And I went to the library because that's how I rolled in high school.
00:07:39.759 --> 00:07:44.480
That's one of the reasons everybody hated to be my parent, going to the library all the time.
00:07:44.720 --> 00:07:58.240
And I read a book that's very, very dated now that I wouldn't recommend from a standpoint of modern behavior, but it really tied into the what I was seeing in general practice when I was, you know, cleaning kennels like all veterinarians our age did, right?
00:07:58.480 --> 00:08:01.279
And that was that behavior problems were a huge part of practice.
00:08:01.439 --> 00:08:03.360
The clinician I worked with hated them.
00:08:03.600 --> 00:08:08.800
And he worked on them very diligently, but he, you know, in the back, he was like, oh man, so many behavior things.
00:08:08.959 --> 00:08:11.600
And so when I read that book, I was like, this is it.
00:08:11.680 --> 00:08:12.720
I'm gonna do this.
00:08:12.879 --> 00:08:16.160
And then I just never looked back, uh, probably because I'm neurodivergent.
00:08:16.240 --> 00:08:19.199
And once I'm getting stuck on one thing, I'm like, and that's the thing, right?
00:08:19.360 --> 00:08:20.480
And then I just did that.
00:08:20.639 --> 00:08:24.319
So from 16 on, it was veterinary behavior or bust.
00:08:25.120 --> 00:08:27.199
So crazy that you knew that early on.
00:08:27.279 --> 00:08:27.920
I love it.
00:08:28.319 --> 00:08:29.199
It is crazy.
00:08:29.360 --> 00:08:30.240
I love it.
00:08:30.480 --> 00:08:32.559
Well, Ursa, you've done a lot in your time too.
00:08:32.639 --> 00:08:36.080
You've done shelter behavior work, uh, behavior research with Hills.
00:08:36.159 --> 00:08:38.240
You built a training facility from the ground up.
00:08:38.320 --> 00:08:43.679
And this year you were the onset trainer for the AKC's Super Bowl campaign.
00:08:43.919 --> 00:08:48.879
How did all of that lead you to focus now specifically on complex behavioral cases?
00:08:49.600 --> 00:08:53.919
Man, I maybe I'm the opposite of the laser focus of Elise.
00:08:54.320 --> 00:08:56.080
I like to do everything.
00:08:57.200 --> 00:09:00.799
Um, so I've been in the field for about 25 years now.
00:09:00.960 --> 00:09:10.159
And I got in because I took a puppy that I adopted uh when I moved out of my parents' house to a training class, and the trainer was like, You seem pretty good at this.
00:09:10.320 --> 00:09:12.320
Do you want to like be my assistant?
00:09:12.639 --> 00:09:17.360
And I had plans to go to school to study astrophysics.
00:09:17.600 --> 00:09:20.799
Oh little left hand there.
00:09:21.440 --> 00:09:21.840
Yeah.
00:09:22.080 --> 00:09:25.039
And I was like, yeah, that sounds like a fun hobby.
00:09:25.360 --> 00:09:27.600
And instead, it became my career.
00:09:27.840 --> 00:09:33.039
So I I spent about nine years, eight and a half, nine years in shelter behavior.
00:09:33.279 --> 00:09:43.120
And man, I feel like that is just the best place to, you know, experience a wide variety of behavior issues.
00:09:43.279 --> 00:09:46.480
And as we all know, shelters have very limited resources.
00:09:46.559 --> 00:09:48.399
So you have to do a lot with very little, right?
00:09:48.960 --> 00:09:53.679
Um, so it's almost like the worst case scenario of trying to change behavior.
00:09:53.840 --> 00:10:00.799
Um, so everything else in comparison just seems, I don't want to say easy because it's not, but just very less less hard.
00:10:01.519 --> 00:10:03.200
Yeah, yeah, not straightforward.
00:10:03.440 --> 00:10:03.679
Yeah.
00:10:04.320 --> 00:10:11.120
So I just, you know, because I have uh done so many different things, I like to take opportunities, right?
00:10:11.360 --> 00:10:13.679
Like I just love to experience different things.
00:10:13.840 --> 00:10:17.120
I love to learn new stuff, I love a challenge.
00:10:17.360 --> 00:10:24.559
And, you know, the the thing is I keep coming back to working with people with really severely behaviorally challenged pets.
00:10:24.720 --> 00:10:27.519
And part of that is because I actually really like working with people.
00:10:27.840 --> 00:10:31.279
So I know a lot of trainers get into the field because they're like, I want to work with dogs.
00:10:31.440 --> 00:10:31.919
I hate people.
00:10:32.000 --> 00:10:32.639
I hate people.
00:10:32.960 --> 00:10:35.600
I I love working with people.
00:10:35.840 --> 00:10:41.759
And when I have had phases in my career where that wasn't a part of the equation, it didn't do it for me as much.
00:10:42.000 --> 00:10:43.759
So, you know, having worked with Dr.
00:10:43.919 --> 00:10:47.679
Hussi now for gosh, what, six years now, five years?
00:10:47.919 --> 00:10:48.799
Yeah, a long time.
00:10:48.960 --> 00:11:02.720
Um and, you know, having a lot of experience with these really complex, challenging cases that have a lot of factors and you know, the owners are kind of at their wits' end and a lot of the time feels like I'm the last stop for them.
00:11:03.120 --> 00:11:05.279
Um that's so meaningful to me.
00:11:05.440 --> 00:11:10.000
Like that is such an important purpose for me and and what I know.
00:11:10.080 --> 00:11:20.240
And it's just the the the highest purpose that I can think of to use what I've learned and what I know is, you know, helping people that feel like they're in crisis, really.
00:11:20.639 --> 00:11:26.639
So um, but yeah, and then the Super Bowl thing, I have a connection in marketing, and they were doing this campaign for the AKC.
00:11:26.720 --> 00:11:27.519
This is last year.
00:11:27.600 --> 00:11:30.320
I guess we actually filmed it on a year and a half ago.
00:11:30.559 --> 00:11:33.200
And um, I was just like, yeah, of course I'll do that.
00:11:33.279 --> 00:11:34.320
That sounds super fun.
00:11:34.639 --> 00:11:35.120
That's cool.
00:11:35.440 --> 00:11:35.759
I love that.
00:11:36.159 --> 00:11:41.679
And it was and all the dogs were friendly, and I got to touch them all, which never happens, right?
00:11:42.240 --> 00:11:42.720
I know.
00:11:44.559 --> 00:11:51.120
So, yeah, anytime I get an opportunity like that, where it's like, oh, all the dogs want you to pet them, I'm like, yeah, I'll be there.
00:11:51.279 --> 00:11:51.840
Awesome.
00:11:53.759 --> 00:11:54.480
I love that.
00:11:54.720 --> 00:11:57.519
And you guys do come from kind of two different training paths.
00:11:57.679 --> 00:12:07.360
Doctors, see, you're on one side evaluating pets for medical conditions and all the things that kind of affect behavior, recommending diagnostics, evaluating their health, prescribing medications, right?
00:12:07.440 --> 00:12:09.440
All the stuff that we do in the doctor world.
00:12:09.600 --> 00:12:13.279
Well, Ursa, you're in the living room at home with everybody, right?
00:12:13.440 --> 00:12:18.159
Teaching the dog, coaching the humans, like in the in the war zone.
00:12:18.399 --> 00:12:22.000
How did you guys decide to build things together, right?
00:12:22.080 --> 00:12:24.559
And and what does that collaboration look like?
00:12:25.120 --> 00:12:30.480
For me, you know, I I did some training before and during vet school.
00:12:30.720 --> 00:12:36.399
And then obviously I took this as direct a path as I could to becoming an animal psychiatrist.
00:12:36.639 --> 00:13:01.600
And what I found over the years is as much as I love training and behavior modification, and I love being creative with behavior modification plans, is that it just isn't the best use of the client's money and time and effort to rely on me as their dog psychiatrist to support them with the coaching they need throughout the week on the behavior modification front.
00:13:01.840 --> 00:13:10.720
And I can't set up a practice that would pay my bills where I could be available to my clients in person doing their behavior modification.
00:13:10.960 --> 00:13:12.559
It just isn't rational.
00:13:12.879 --> 00:13:39.679
So, what I really think is the most helpful for my clients is for them to focus their time with me, not on rearranging their behavior mod, et cetera, although I do get them started with that, but instead to rely on an expert behavior consultant that knows how to work with a veterinary behaviorist, how to track behaviors, not you know, diagnosing things or prescribing meds, but knows when different meds should work, right?
00:13:39.840 --> 00:13:42.799
That kind of thing, and knows when the client should be reaching back out.
00:13:43.039 --> 00:13:55.120
So they're really my friend at the factory on helping these clients get the best results so that when clients are hiring me, I can focus on what literally nobody else can do, which is the veterinary psychiatry part of it.
00:13:55.279 --> 00:13:56.159
Are we using meds?
00:13:56.320 --> 00:13:57.360
Are we using supplements?
00:13:57.519 --> 00:14:01.360
Have we really thoroughly evaluated diagnostics for medical problems?
00:14:01.600 --> 00:14:03.679
Have we implemented treatment for those medical problems?
00:14:03.759 --> 00:14:11.039
And if not, how can I support the family and the veterinarian to getting those things done over time, if not right away?
00:14:11.279 --> 00:14:22.480
So that way when clients are spending time and effort with me, they're getting the most out of the brain that they hired and able to pair that with another brain where they're able to get the most out of what they hired with them.
00:14:22.720 --> 00:14:35.120
So for me as a clinician, I really strongly feel like I hear from my clients that are working with expert behavior consultants along with a veterinary behaviorist, they feel more supported, they get faster improvements.
00:14:35.279 --> 00:14:42.080
And what I always want to do in my practice is graduate these clients as soon as possible, right?
00:14:42.240 --> 00:14:46.639
I am always looking for speed because that's how my brain works.
00:14:47.120 --> 00:14:53.679
So I really get excited when I see a patient and three months later, they're stable, ready to graduate, right?
00:14:53.919 --> 00:14:56.399
So I love working with somebody like Ursa.
00:14:56.639 --> 00:15:15.840
And because of that, the more I work with behavior consultants intimately with these cases, and you know, I have for a really long time, I was really noticing that there's all these things that clients really just can't learn because there's so much they're learning from scratch without having somebody hold their hands.
00:15:15.919 --> 00:15:24.080
And it's not just the behavior modification, it's how to maintain a lifestyle over time with these complex pets.
00:15:24.320 --> 00:15:31.039
And it's not just sort of like the emotional support and you know, do we need a human animal bond type therapy thing?
00:15:31.120 --> 00:15:32.399
Like that's great, and they should have that.
00:15:32.639 --> 00:15:35.840
That's not what I do, it's not what Ursa does, although we do provide a lot of support.
00:15:36.240 --> 00:15:43.039
What they really also need help with is just the mechanics of how can I make this lifestyle work for me and work for my pet best.
00:15:43.519 --> 00:15:52.080
And I just really love doing that with them because a lot of times they have accidentally made their life a lot harder than it needs to be.
00:15:52.559 --> 00:15:58.080
And so we can come back and say, look, this is legitimately difficult, but doesn't have to be this difficult.
00:15:58.320 --> 00:16:03.679
Let's backtrack and really evaluate what's going to support you as a family.
00:16:03.840 --> 00:16:05.840
And that I just I love it so much.
00:16:05.919 --> 00:16:12.879
It I can see families feeling so much better, so much more supported, and able to just take a deep breath for a long time.
00:16:12.960 --> 00:16:14.799
You know, they haven't been able to for a really long time.
00:16:15.039 --> 00:16:19.440
So that's one of the reasons that I was I've been cooking on this idea for a long time.
00:16:19.519 --> 00:16:24.480
And Urs and I were talking about it as we worked together for the last few years and finally we're like, let's just try it.
00:16:24.559 --> 00:16:25.759
Like, what do we have to lose?
00:16:25.840 --> 00:16:26.000
Right.
00:16:26.159 --> 00:16:26.639
I love it.
00:16:26.879 --> 00:16:27.039
Yeah.
00:16:27.200 --> 00:16:28.879
But uh Amy and I completely agree.
00:16:28.960 --> 00:16:35.919
And I mean, that's why we've structured our practice similarly, and that that hands-on support is so, so, so important.
00:16:36.320 --> 00:16:39.840
Um that we we just don't have the time to do.
00:16:40.080 --> 00:16:44.879
Not the it's not that we don't have the knowledge or the, you know, the skill level, it's that we just don't have the time.
00:16:45.200 --> 00:16:46.000
So yeah.
00:16:46.799 --> 00:16:53.600
Well, and for me, it's a no-brainer in terms of like, you know, as someone who takes on cases that a lot of trainers don't want, right?
00:16:53.840 --> 00:17:00.639
Because of the complexity, because of things that are like medical or physical factors that are complicating things.
00:17:00.960 --> 00:17:06.480
And to have, you know, a vet behaviorist as part of my client's team, right?
00:17:06.880 --> 00:17:16.880
Because I'm not qualified to diagnose, I'm not qualified to recommend medication, I'm not qualified to suggest diagnostics, other than like, hey, maybe you should talk to like this type of doctor.
00:17:17.119 --> 00:17:21.039
And so to have someone that I can be like, she knows all of that.
00:17:21.680 --> 00:17:24.319
So you should go to her and she'll take care of that side.
00:17:24.480 --> 00:17:31.519
Because if we don't get those things figured out, no amount of behavior modification is going to make much progress, right?
00:17:31.599 --> 00:17:39.200
If there's a some sort of physiological complicating factor, we've got we've got to get that teased out so that we can actually get a foothold with the the B mod.
00:17:39.759 --> 00:17:47.200
And so having somebody to do all that is invaluable to me as a behavior consultant.
00:17:47.599 --> 00:17:47.839
Yeah.
00:17:49.359 --> 00:17:52.079
Well, let's talk about those people that you're trying to reach.
00:17:52.240 --> 00:17:56.400
Um, you guys use the phrase amazing pet people with complex pets.
00:17:56.799 --> 00:18:01.039
Who are your clients and what does their daily life actually look like for them?
00:18:02.000 --> 00:18:24.400
So, you know, when we say amazing pet people, what we are talking about is like those devoted people who are uh dedicated to uh managing their pet's life, to trying to improve the pet's quality of life, to finding, you know, uh if not solutions, then at least ways to make things better, even though they are at the end of their rope.
00:18:24.799 --> 00:18:25.119
Right.
00:18:25.599 --> 00:18:31.440
I have a client who just said the other day, I'm pouring and pouring and pouring into my dog and I'm getting almost nothing back.
00:18:32.079 --> 00:18:38.400
And she doesn't say that because she doesn't love her dog, she's doing it because she loves her dog, but she's also exhausted.
00:18:38.480 --> 00:18:38.640
Yeah.
00:18:38.960 --> 00:18:41.440
She's uh she's out of gas uh for this.
00:18:41.759 --> 00:18:43.759
And that's someone amazing, right?
00:18:43.920 --> 00:18:48.000
Someone who is caring for this living thing to their detriment, right?
00:18:48.079 --> 00:18:51.759
And sacrificing a lot to make this animal's life better.
00:18:52.000 --> 00:18:53.119
And doing so willingly.
00:18:53.279 --> 00:18:54.960
You know, she didn't say this with bitterness.
00:18:55.359 --> 00:18:56.960
She was just like, man, this is hard.
00:18:57.599 --> 00:18:59.279
And to me, that's someone amazing.
00:18:59.359 --> 00:19:07.119
And it's not about, you know, uh what how fancy the dog food is or if they go to the dog park every day or is the best doggy daycare or whatever.
00:19:07.359 --> 00:19:16.240
It's about them making these sacrifices to try to make their dog's life better and uh trying to to learn as much as they can to do it the right way, right?
00:19:16.880 --> 00:19:36.480
So, you know, uh these amazing pet people with complex pets, and you know, the complex pets are the ones with layered behavior problems that don't get better with, you know, sort of the typical approach that foundational training probably isn't gonna help, or maybe the first meds that are prescribed don't really help that much.
00:19:37.119 --> 00:19:50.319
But a lot of the time daily life for them is a slog, you know, it's the same issues over and over and over again where they're just trying to keep a grip on things, or like they're trying to do their best to keep things manageable.
00:19:50.559 --> 00:19:53.680
Uh, but a lot of the time that grip feels very tenuous.
00:19:53.839 --> 00:19:54.000
Yeah.
00:19:54.319 --> 00:19:55.200
And it's exhausting.
00:19:55.279 --> 00:19:58.880
It's mentally, emotionally, and physically exhausting to live with a pet like this.
00:19:59.440 --> 00:20:09.279
So, you know, those are the kinds of people that we are trying to reach to help them understand, like, you know, like Elise said earlier, it maybe doesn't have to be this hard all the time.
00:20:09.759 --> 00:20:18.559
There's probably not going to be a quick fix for the behavior problems that you're you're dealing with, but there are things that you can do to make it feel not so hard every single day.
00:20:19.039 --> 00:20:19.519
Right, right.
00:20:19.839 --> 00:20:21.119
And it's hard for us too, right?
00:20:21.200 --> 00:20:23.119
Like we also get frustrated.
00:20:23.279 --> 00:20:24.480
We want to help them.
00:20:24.640 --> 00:20:30.079
We I and I'm speaking for you guys, but I'm I'm I assume that you feel the same way.
00:20:30.240 --> 00:20:32.000
I wish that there were like eight of me, right?
00:20:32.079 --> 00:20:42.160
Like I can one of me is gonna take care of the medications and the supplements, and one of me is gonna work on the training plan, and one of me is gonna be that social emotional support, and one of me is gonna, right?
00:20:42.240 --> 00:20:44.640
Oh, yeah, there's no, I can't, there's not that many of me.
00:20:44.720 --> 00:20:57.680
And so having this uh, it takes a village, having this support system, this team to work together so that we're meeting all of those needs, medical, physical, emotional support, you know, is really an important part of this.
00:20:57.839 --> 00:21:01.440
So, you know, that looks like what you guys are creating.
00:21:01.519 --> 00:21:04.160
I want to know more about the complex pet partnership.
00:21:04.319 --> 00:21:04.720
What is it?
00:21:04.799 --> 00:21:06.240
You know, how are you meeting those needs?
00:21:06.400 --> 00:21:07.680
Tell me, tell me more.
00:21:08.319 --> 00:21:12.960
Well, what we're doing is, you know, to your point about like, I wish there were more of me.
00:21:13.039 --> 00:21:15.680
Like in so many ways there was sort of like doing so many of me.
00:21:15.920 --> 00:21:18.880
But what I is just on ouch drinking.
00:21:19.359 --> 00:21:19.519
Yeah.
00:21:20.160 --> 00:21:23.119
Can I just have my cocktail and I don't know, watch it's creepy.
00:21:23.519 --> 00:21:41.279
But um what I was noticing in practice was there was so much information that, you know, I've been doing dog behavior in some way, shape, and form since I started training dogs for the like teenage drug abuse unit when I was like 14, right?
00:21:41.359 --> 00:21:47.759
Like, so you know, when you've been like doing stuff, whether you were good at it or I thought I was good at it, but I was 16, it was not that good.
00:21:47.920 --> 00:21:48.160
You were good.
00:21:48.799 --> 00:21:49.359
You were pretty good.
00:21:49.599 --> 00:21:55.680
Um I thought it was amazing, but you know, like many young trainers, I also just had a really amazing dog who made me look really good.
00:21:55.920 --> 00:21:57.519
Um, but you know what?
00:21:57.680 --> 00:21:59.440
I all of that, you know.
00:22:00.240 --> 00:22:11.680
Those many years of experience, you can't deliver that information in a way that people can absorb in an appointment, even the way I do appointments, which is like every two to four weeks, right?
00:22:11.839 --> 00:22:14.720
And get all the information you need to track the behaviors.
00:22:14.880 --> 00:22:16.640
How are we really doing side effects?
00:22:16.720 --> 00:22:19.519
If we're using medications, all that stuff, but you can't do it all the same time.
00:22:19.759 --> 00:22:37.759
So, this program, since we've got six weeks together, we have it staged out to really help people that are managing these complex pets take the lifestyle management and systematize it so they can get it into their regular life without feeling like they're throwing spaghetti at the wall.
00:22:37.920 --> 00:22:49.440
Because, you know, for people like us that have been doing this a long time, that have had complex pets ourselves and supported all different types of families, we have a lot of, you know, quote unquote wisdom, right?
00:22:49.599 --> 00:22:55.759
Like so this program really allows us to support families in doing that.
00:22:55.920 --> 00:23:11.359
And it's especially important for families that are either DIYing it completely or are working with maybe their GP, their general practitioner, and a trainer, but really having a hard time learning how to be the glue for their complex pet.
00:23:11.519 --> 00:23:14.079
And that makes sense because they can't possibly know how to do that.
00:23:14.160 --> 00:23:16.240
They really need explicit instruction.
00:23:16.559 --> 00:23:24.640
And um, the good news is that those skills are not hard to learn if you have somebody that truly loves people and knows what they are going through.
00:23:24.880 --> 00:23:40.079
So our goal is to help these families find and be safe in an environment with other people that are going through the same things that is supervised and encouraged by experts.
00:23:40.400 --> 00:23:42.960
So they're not running off into scary forests, right?
00:23:43.039 --> 00:23:58.000
Because that's really, really common for our clients because they're going down every possible rabbit hole that they can find to solve these problems and really setting them up so that, you know, hopefully their pet is getting better and then their lives together can just be more fun.
00:23:58.079 --> 00:24:18.400
Because it's one of the things that I see as a clinician is that because the situations are so high stakes, is that clients come to every interaction and everything they think about with so much pressure and fear of failure and even feeling like for sure it's gonna fail, like not even fear of failure, but deterministic will fail.
00:24:18.559 --> 00:24:20.000
I don't even know why I'm trying.
00:24:20.240 --> 00:24:30.240
So giving them a space to feel safe and then learn that they can make things simpler and lighten up and have fun, and that that can actually improve their success rates.
00:24:30.480 --> 00:24:39.119
But it's really impossible to do that level of in-depth coaching in appointments and then also do the regular work that we're supposed to do.
00:24:39.440 --> 00:24:40.160
It's so true.
00:24:40.319 --> 00:24:48.880
And and like we had a client this week, it was our first recheck, but she was just like I mean, she was just so profoundly like overwhelmed about everything.
00:24:49.039 --> 00:24:52.640
But she was like, you know, the biggest thing that you gave me is you didn't blame me for this.
00:24:52.880 --> 00:24:58.240
100% because she had been blamed before, like, and so it's like I really appreciate that.
00:24:58.400 --> 00:25:01.920
Like, that is yeah, you know, if we can provide that for you, that's awesome.
00:25:02.079 --> 00:25:02.480
That's half.
00:25:03.920 --> 00:25:11.759
It always makes me so sad because I hear clients say, Oh, my vet or my past trainer or whatever made me feel like this is my fault.
00:25:12.000 --> 00:25:20.720
And whether or not, like I know that sometimes clients hear what they want to hear, and sometimes it's not exactly verbatim, but regardless, they felt that, right?
00:25:21.119 --> 00:25:25.039
So whatever happened between them and that other provider, they felt blamed.
00:25:25.200 --> 00:25:36.480
And it always makes me so sad because I understand that feeling, like as a parent, as a you know, a dog parent, just a human that was raised by heathens but still somehow has a lot of Catholic guilt.
00:25:36.960 --> 00:25:41.119
Uh I I totally empathize with that.
00:25:41.279 --> 00:25:47.680
And, you know, I think probably my number one goal is for my clients to feel supported, not blamed.
00:25:47.759 --> 00:25:48.319
Yeah, right.
00:25:48.720 --> 00:25:54.240
Like I am not going to make them feel guilty because they're here working with us.
00:25:54.480 --> 00:26:00.240
Like that is such a small elite percentage of pet parents, right, that seek this kind of help.
00:26:00.400 --> 00:26:03.279
Like you're already doing the most, right?
00:26:03.440 --> 00:26:09.839
And just because you haven't always done it right, like you're getting better as you learn more, and that is something to be celebrated, right?
00:26:10.000 --> 00:26:10.720
And recognized.
00:26:10.799 --> 00:26:13.759
So like they they feel like they're failing, right?
00:26:13.920 --> 00:26:22.319
And so, I mean, other than maybe they misheard, or maybe they truly were told um that it was their blame, where do you think that shame comes from?
00:26:22.400 --> 00:26:27.279
And like, how do you guys address that before you even start teaching the dog anything?
00:26:27.759 --> 00:26:28.240
Pressure.
00:26:28.400 --> 00:26:39.119
I mean, I think we hear all of this messaging about what pet ownership is supposed to look like and what it's supposed to be like, and we hear it from social media and we hear it from our families and our friends.
00:26:39.359 --> 00:26:44.240
I I have this image in my head all the time, and I can't remember who to attribute it to.
00:26:44.400 --> 00:26:45.759
Someday I'll find it again.
00:26:45.920 --> 00:26:48.240
But it was uh an image of a bell curve, right?
00:26:48.319 --> 00:26:50.880
So, like, you know, big peak in the middle.
00:26:51.200 --> 00:26:56.480
And it was like on one side of the bell curve are dogs that don't like any other dogs, right?
00:26:56.960 --> 00:26:59.759
And then on the other side of the bell curve are dogs that like every dog they meet.
00:27:00.000 --> 00:27:02.319
And the vast majority are here in the middle.
00:27:02.880 --> 00:27:04.960
But and they're selective, just like humans, right?
00:27:05.039 --> 00:27:06.880
They choose who they want to spend their time with.
00:27:07.039 --> 00:27:11.599
But we, the ones we see in public are the ones that like every other dog, right?
00:27:11.759 --> 00:27:17.759
Those are the ones that people take out into the world, and that's what we see, and that's what we assume every dog is supposed to be like.
00:27:17.920 --> 00:27:18.400
Yeah, right.
00:27:18.559 --> 00:27:22.240
That those dogs that are just social butterflies, happy to be here, love everyone.
00:27:22.480 --> 00:27:35.119
And I think that pressure that is put on us by this pet, you know, centric society that we live in creates the guilt when our dog can't go to the dog park, when they can't go sit at the brewery, when they can't meet everybody that comes into the home.
00:27:35.359 --> 00:27:39.359
We feel like, oh, we've failed because look at all these dogs that are friendly and mine's not.
00:27:39.519 --> 00:27:39.680
Yeah.
00:27:39.920 --> 00:27:40.319
Yeah.
00:27:40.640 --> 00:27:46.160
To me, I I I see a lot of a parallel between that and parenting human children, right?
00:27:46.400 --> 00:27:46.720
Totally.
00:27:48.480 --> 00:27:50.240
And especially, are we all parents?
00:27:50.400 --> 00:27:51.279
Are you guys both parents?
00:27:51.440 --> 00:27:51.599
Yeah.
00:27:51.680 --> 00:27:52.000
Uh-huh.
00:27:52.319 --> 00:27:52.480
Okay.
00:27:52.720 --> 00:27:52.960
Yeah.
00:27:53.119 --> 00:27:55.759
So, right, and especially as mothers, I feel like.
00:27:56.000 --> 00:27:56.160
Yeah.
00:27:56.480 --> 00:27:58.079
Historically, mom guilt.
00:27:58.400 --> 00:27:59.839
There's so much mom guilt.
00:27:59.920 --> 00:28:02.000
It's to me, it's not dissimilar.
00:28:02.240 --> 00:28:02.480
Yeah.
00:28:02.640 --> 00:28:02.799
Right.
00:28:03.200 --> 00:28:04.480
I would exactly agree.
00:28:04.799 --> 00:28:06.880
Because our kids are on that spectrum too, right?
00:28:06.960 --> 00:28:13.920
It's like some are perfect angels, perfection from the get-go, most in the middle.
00:28:14.160 --> 00:28:19.200
And then other ones, you know, whether it be due to like neurodivergency or you know, other issues.
00:28:19.519 --> 00:28:20.240
They're having a bad day.
00:28:20.480 --> 00:28:21.359
Yeah, they're having a bad day.
00:28:21.519 --> 00:28:22.480
They're being humans.
00:28:22.640 --> 00:28:22.960
Yeah.
00:28:23.200 --> 00:28:25.039
Yeah, but there's so much judginess.
00:28:25.200 --> 00:28:29.359
It's like if our kids aren't perfect, that reflects on what we did as a parent.
00:28:29.440 --> 00:28:29.599
Right.
00:28:29.839 --> 00:28:32.240
And, you know, I think we get the same with our pets.
00:28:32.400 --> 00:28:37.519
Like, I, you know, I just see so much on social media of next door is a great example, right?
00:28:37.680 --> 00:28:38.079
Oh gosh, yeah.
00:28:38.240 --> 00:28:44.720
And it's kind of a cesspool, but I'll see please on next door from people that are like, please, can we not do fireworks?
00:28:45.039 --> 00:28:46.880
My dog is terrified of fireworks.
00:28:46.960 --> 00:28:48.799
Could everybody please tone down the fireworks?
00:28:48.960 --> 00:28:53.440
And inevitably there will be comments about like, well, it's your fault for not training your dog.
00:28:53.680 --> 00:28:55.759
And it's like, it's not like that.
00:28:55.920 --> 00:28:56.960
It's not that simple.
00:28:57.200 --> 00:28:57.519
Yeah.
00:28:57.839 --> 00:28:58.640
I wish it was.
00:28:58.880 --> 00:28:59.680
Man, so I know.
00:28:59.920 --> 00:29:00.400
I wish it was.
00:29:00.720 --> 00:29:10.240
I think that's one of the things that we spend time on in the very beginning of our um work with Complex Pet Partnership when people first join is the first week or two.
00:29:10.319 --> 00:29:20.079
We're really spending time kind of clear, I mean, it sounds really woo, but like cleaning the space up, getting not just the mental space, but yes, that, but also just the environment.
00:29:20.160 --> 00:29:24.400
Like how much stuff do you have that when you look at it makes you feel crappy, right?
00:29:24.720 --> 00:29:29.440
Stuff that you've tried before, you got a big pile of it, it's dusty, it's gross, covered in dog hair.
00:29:29.599 --> 00:29:32.000
And whenever you look at it, you remember a really bad time.
00:29:32.160 --> 00:29:35.279
Like we just go through and we just get rid of all of that crap, right?
00:29:35.359 --> 00:29:36.559
We reorganize it.
00:29:36.720 --> 00:29:38.079
Like get it out of there, right?
00:29:38.240 --> 00:29:43.200
Take pictures of anything so that if you need to show it to a practitioner, they know what you had, right?
00:29:43.359 --> 00:29:45.920
Because that's so helpful for us because clients don't always know what it was.
00:29:46.000 --> 00:29:48.799
They're like, oh, I had this thing and I don't know, it looked like this, right?
00:29:48.960 --> 00:29:54.640
So take pictures of it and you know, we talk to people about how to organize it, depending on how that works for them.
00:29:54.880 --> 00:29:57.759
And we do the same for any medications or supplements.
00:29:57.920 --> 00:29:58.880
Let's get pictures of it.
00:29:58.960 --> 00:30:00.799
Let's make sure we know what doses you tried.
00:30:00.880 --> 00:30:02.960
If you remember, take a picture of the label.
00:30:03.119 --> 00:30:04.240
How are we going to organize it?
00:30:04.400 --> 00:30:07.599
And now, if you are not using it, how are we going to get rid of it?
00:30:07.920 --> 00:30:15.680
Then we go through things like, hey, is there anything that you might feel you would lose if this got better?
00:30:16.079 --> 00:30:16.319
Right?
00:30:16.400 --> 00:30:20.480
Like, is there any part of you that's a um being served by this problem?
00:30:20.799 --> 00:30:23.759
Because it's not meant to be like, uh, well, no wonder.
00:30:24.000 --> 00:30:25.359
It's not a gotcha.
00:30:25.519 --> 00:30:34.400
It's just like, let's just admit, like sometimes there are reasons that we aren't able to do the stuff that's in front of us as far as a task.
00:30:34.720 --> 00:30:41.519
And the problem or the concern is actually a lot more interesting than we might have given it credit for.
00:30:42.079 --> 00:30:44.720
And it's worth just like digging into that a little bit.
00:30:44.960 --> 00:30:48.640
So we do a lot of just clearing out some space before we even get started.
00:30:48.960 --> 00:30:51.920
Okay, now how are we gonna make a system that works for you?
00:30:53.039 --> 00:30:54.480
Is that Marshall?
00:30:54.960 --> 00:30:56.799
Oh my God, I was just gonna say that.
00:30:57.039 --> 00:31:00.960
You cut into my you cut into my new my little quid.
00:31:01.440 --> 00:31:19.119
So I was gonna say this could revolutionize the way we treat our pets because my dog is gated out of my room right now so that he doesn't become a clusterfuck in the middle of this interview, and he is staring at me, whining to get in the room so he can climb in my lap, which he can't do because he'll totally f up the microphone and everything.
00:31:19.440 --> 00:31:21.839
So he's just sitting there going, I know he doesn't have to go out.
00:31:21.920 --> 00:31:24.720
I let him out literally right before this this uh podcast.
00:31:24.799 --> 00:31:28.559
And he's just like, me so much.
00:31:32.319 --> 00:31:33.279
Oh my god.
00:31:33.839 --> 00:31:37.599
So anyway, back to the interview.
00:31:39.440 --> 00:31:42.240
Does anybody want a 95-pound 10-year-old Pipple?
00:31:42.480 --> 00:31:43.599
Because he's he's free.
00:31:43.759 --> 00:31:44.559
He's free silent.
00:31:44.960 --> 00:31:45.519
He's free.
00:31:46.079 --> 00:31:50.640
It's like I threw a shoe at him earlier to like just like do anything.
00:31:51.680 --> 00:31:52.720
Yeah, like stop.
00:31:53.200 --> 00:31:54.480
And he's like, nope, I don't care.
00:31:54.559 --> 00:31:55.279
You can throw whatever.
00:31:55.440 --> 00:31:57.359
Throw a weight at me, shoot me with a gun.
00:31:57.440 --> 00:31:57.839
I don't care.
00:31:59.680 --> 00:32:01.039
Step on my neck.
00:32:01.519 --> 00:32:03.279
Sorry so much on the movie.
00:32:05.599 --> 00:32:20.799
So you guys, you guys, the the guests on the show, you people are both clear that this program is coaching, yeah, not Marshall, um, is coaching and education, not veterinary behavior treatment.
00:32:21.119 --> 00:32:22.720
Why is that line so important?
00:32:22.880 --> 00:32:25.920
You know, why do we want to differentiate between those two categories?
00:32:26.000 --> 00:32:32.319
And how do you help people that you are helping understand what falls on each side of that?
00:32:32.799 --> 00:32:36.319
Well, for one thing, we can't establish a VCPR this way.
00:32:36.480 --> 00:32:37.440
So, you know, Dr.
00:32:37.599 --> 00:32:43.680
C doesn't have a veterinary client patient relationship with these folks, so she can't prescribe and treat, right?
00:32:43.839 --> 00:32:45.359
So that's off the table.
00:32:45.680 --> 00:32:53.039
And then, you know, from my perspective, we're gonna have a really diverse group of people in terms of what behavior issues they're dealing with.
00:32:53.279 --> 00:33:12.160
And so even though I think that, you know, a lot of the time we can do things that help a wide range of behavior issues, we can't really dig down into the specifics if like someone shows up with a dog with resource guarding and one has intra-household aggression, and one has screaming reactivity, and you know, those are all going to be treated somewhat differently.
00:33:12.240 --> 00:33:17.920
And so we're not here for that because that would really get us into the weeds and it wouldn't be helping everyone in the group, right?
00:33:18.240 --> 00:33:19.039
It's a different program.
00:33:19.359 --> 00:33:20.079
It's a different program.
00:33:20.400 --> 00:33:21.359
Yeah, exactly.
00:33:22.400 --> 00:33:41.359
Um it's about strengthening their relationship with their dog, teaching them how to advocate, teaching them how to get all of their providers and their team on board and working together so that they have all the scaffolding that they need to be successful with these behavior issues that they're dealing with, right?
00:33:41.680 --> 00:33:48.880
We know what it's like, both firsthand and secondhand, through all of our clients to live with pets with behavior issues.
00:33:49.119 --> 00:33:54.640
And, you know, again, we have tools that we can provide people to make it suck less, right?
00:33:54.799 --> 00:34:20.320
So that it doesn't have to be as hard and help them challenge their assumptions about what they think they have to be doing or what they should be doing, and really get down to like what's helpful to be doing, what makes their life better, what makes their dog's life better, aside from directly treating these behavior issues, like what is going to make living with your pet a little more joyful and a little less overwhelming and frustrating.
00:34:21.039 --> 00:34:25.360
So that's the piece that we're here for that I think historically has been really neglected.
00:34:25.599 --> 00:34:33.920
You know, it's it's a slog and it's expected to be a slog and you're expected just to, I guess, do it and not feel the way about it, right?
00:34:34.320 --> 00:34:35.679
Right again, just like parenting.
00:34:35.840 --> 00:34:38.079
It's like, well, you have to do it, so suck it up, right?
00:34:39.039 --> 00:34:42.000
And and like we're here to tell people you don't have to suck it up.
00:34:42.079 --> 00:34:44.239
Like it's okay to acknowledge that it sucks.
00:34:44.400 --> 00:34:45.679
It's okay to acknowledge that it's hard.
00:34:45.760 --> 00:34:49.119
It's okay to acknowledge I'm pouring into my dog and I'm not getting anything back.
00:34:49.280 --> 00:34:51.039
Like those are real feelings.
00:34:51.280 --> 00:34:57.199
And the more you stuff them inside the box and ignore them, like you're not doing anybody a service doing that.
00:34:57.360 --> 00:34:58.639
Like it's okay to acknowledge that.
00:34:58.719 --> 00:35:08.079
And it's not just about feelings, it's also about actionable things that you can do to again just make things get down to what's actually helping you.
00:35:08.239 --> 00:35:08.480
Yeah.
00:35:08.880 --> 00:35:09.119
Yeah.
00:35:09.280 --> 00:35:25.039
And like we even spend time, I know you guys have talked about this on the podcast before, making sure that people are able to evaluate like who are the people in their lives that talking about this situation with is gonna help them, bring them energy, bring them support.
00:35:25.280 --> 00:35:27.679
And who is not a good call, right?
00:35:27.920 --> 00:35:46.000
And giving family scripts, people scripts about how to manage those people who really just are not good for that client to deal with with their pet and working through the negotiations of social uh situations so that they just like they're so they feel like they have a plan, they're not alone with it, they can practice it.
00:35:46.559 --> 00:35:57.119
And again, just every place we can think of how can we make this easier and more systematized so that it's like you get in the car, you put on your seatbelt, you just do it, you don't think about it because you have practice and you know how to do it now.
00:35:57.199 --> 00:36:00.639
You don't feel like you're just fluttering in the wind trying to find an answer.
00:36:00.880 --> 00:36:01.519
That's great.
00:36:01.679 --> 00:36:03.840
I love that they must feel so supported.
00:36:04.000 --> 00:36:05.519
This is wonderful.
00:36:05.760 --> 00:36:09.599
And now you guys have actually built some tools too for this program.
00:36:09.679 --> 00:36:12.400
So walk us through some of the ones you're most proud of.
00:36:12.719 --> 00:36:13.519
Oh my gosh.
00:36:13.599 --> 00:36:15.440
Uh we can't stop making stuff.
00:36:17.360 --> 00:36:19.360
I'm like, oh my god, oh my god, I had a thing.
00:36:19.440 --> 00:36:20.320
We gotta do this.
00:36:20.800 --> 00:36:29.280
The things that, you know, the thing that I focus on a lot when we actually the the first thing that we created is called a behavior care tracker.
00:36:29.360 --> 00:36:30.239
And it's on my website.
00:36:30.320 --> 00:36:32.239
You can get like the simpler version.
00:36:32.480 --> 00:36:33.440
It's free, right?
00:36:33.599 --> 00:36:37.280
We have a more complex version that we use in the complex pet partnership.
00:36:37.519 --> 00:36:51.840
My goal was, and we'll have better ways of doing this in the future too, but clients don't know, even with explicit verbal instruction, what information their veterinary behaviorist needs to change their plan and support their pet best.
00:36:52.400 --> 00:37:06.000
And a lot of times, if their general practitioner is managing their medications and supplements and diet and all that stuff, their general practitioner also doesn't know what they need to ask to change a plan, right?
00:37:06.079 --> 00:37:07.039
And have it move forward.
00:37:07.119 --> 00:37:10.400
Like making a first step plan for a behavior case is not hard.
00:37:10.639 --> 00:37:16.639
It's when things are not working well enough or there's side effects that people get lost, right?
00:37:16.719 --> 00:37:19.199
Well, that happens pretty quickly unless you have an easy case, right?
00:37:19.440 --> 00:37:40.960
So we made a behavior care plan tracker so that we could solve the problem of people getting concise information to their care team in real time and having their care team connected in real time versus I go to see my behavior consultant, they tell me something, then I talk to my vet, I tell them what the behavior consultant said, then I tell my behavior consultant what the vet said.
00:37:41.119 --> 00:37:58.800
The client who's not prepared to be the middle person is now the new person, and they're delivering information to two different professionals, and those professionals are relying on what the clients think they heard, which we know isn't always accurate because they can't possibly remember everything, right?
00:37:59.039 --> 00:38:16.239
So the care plan tracker allows everybody on the care team to connect in real time about what behaviors are we working on, what medication, supplements, diets are we using, and to, and the more complex version also tracks how behaviors are changing over time as we change medications and treatments.
00:38:16.480 --> 00:38:28.000
So that one for me is the basics of what I'm trying to create longer term in an easier-to-do format as we get more and more um technologically advanced.
00:38:28.159 --> 00:38:30.079
You know, by me, I mean me, right?
00:38:30.400 --> 00:38:34.159
So that is so helpful for me.
00:38:34.320 --> 00:38:38.639
It it's it works best for clients who are willing to do a spreadsheet because right now it's in a spreadsheet.
00:38:38.719 --> 00:38:46.320
But long term, it won't have to be because we'll be able to use more conversational approaches to get the data organized and um systematized for everybody to see.
00:38:46.639 --> 00:38:51.199
The other one that I really love is this time energy tracker.
00:38:51.280 --> 00:39:03.199
And what it does is it helps clients go through their days with their pets and in different increments of time, depending on the client, marking down like, hey, what is it that I'm doing or that my animal's doing?
00:39:03.360 --> 00:39:07.679
And is that giving me energy or taking energy from me or is it neutral?
00:39:07.840 --> 00:39:11.440
And is it looking like something my pet is excited and happy to do?
00:39:11.599 --> 00:39:14.719
Is it neutral for them, or is it actually a problem for them?
00:39:14.880 --> 00:39:15.039
Right.
00:39:15.199 --> 00:39:16.480
And then we compare, right?
00:39:16.639 --> 00:39:22.480
If we've got lots of reds, like I'm red and my dog is red, is that something that we have to do?
00:39:22.719 --> 00:39:22.960
Right.
00:39:23.039 --> 00:39:24.639
Do we have to do that?
00:39:25.119 --> 00:39:27.280
A lot of times we don't, right?
00:39:27.599 --> 00:39:44.880
But because these families are very intense, high ethics, very concerned and supportive of their animal's quality of life, they are literally going through a checklist of like 50 things that amazing pet people do, but they're actually not things that amazing pet people need to do.
00:39:45.039 --> 00:39:47.199
What they are is a list of things.
00:39:47.519 --> 00:39:55.679
So that time energy approach really allows people to see visually and to critically evaluate what's actually working for both of them.
00:39:55.760 --> 00:39:59.840
Because again, that's where we can make things simpler because accidentally it might be making their lives harder.
00:40:00.159 --> 00:40:05.840
One of my favorite moments as a behavior consultant is when I can say to my client, like, do you want to just not do that?
00:40:06.159 --> 00:40:07.440
And you're like, oh my God.
00:40:07.599 --> 00:40:07.760
Yeah.
00:40:08.079 --> 00:40:09.840
Like the permission to not walk.
00:40:10.880 --> 00:40:12.159
Can I not do that?
00:40:12.400 --> 00:40:16.239
Can I not introduce the dog to my entire family when they come visit for the holidays?
00:40:16.639 --> 00:40:18.400
Like, I cannot do that.
00:40:21.119 --> 00:40:22.320
Yeah, exactly.
00:40:22.480 --> 00:40:23.199
Yeah, yeah.
00:40:23.440 --> 00:40:25.360
I have a couple favorite tools too.
00:40:25.519 --> 00:40:28.800
Um, mine are a little more like soft skills.
00:40:29.039 --> 00:40:42.159
I love um when clients are willing to track data because I do think it helps keep things clean and objective to some degree, um, which helps with especially if we need to troubleshoot a behavior plan, that can be super, super helpful.
00:40:42.400 --> 00:40:47.920
But I also really love tools that help the human in moments when they're struggling.
00:40:48.079 --> 00:40:52.000
And one of my favorites that we put together is what we call our hard day first aid kit.
00:40:52.559 --> 00:40:59.360
And it's basically like a little graphic with a first aid kit for when you're having a really bad day with your dog.
00:40:59.519 --> 00:41:02.400
And so it's like, what can you do to stop the bleeding?
00:41:02.639 --> 00:41:05.280
What can you do to treat the wound?
00:41:06.320 --> 00:41:08.800
What can you do, you know, to start healing?
00:41:09.039 --> 00:41:12.239
And they can kind of just pick what they need right then.
00:41:12.400 --> 00:41:21.760
So it's not about like adding another thing to their list, it's not about making any progress or changing anything with their behavior plan.
00:41:21.920 --> 00:41:28.079
It's just about like, what do you need today to make things just feel a little bit better, to stop the bleeding, right?
00:41:28.400 --> 00:41:40.960
And I really like that because sometimes I think people get so just overwhelmed that they don't think about like pausing for a moment and giving themselves a little like first aid, basically.
00:41:41.280 --> 00:41:49.360
Um, and then it get, you know, if they do that for long enough, it gets to the point where they're they can't, you know, they they can't, it's it's too big for that now.
00:41:49.519 --> 00:41:49.840
Yeah.
00:41:50.000 --> 00:41:57.440
So, you know, our goal is to help clients use this as needed all the time so that they can sustain their efforts.
00:41:57.840 --> 00:42:03.039
So you can recover because like these, these managing these guys, there's so many peaks and valleys, right?
00:42:03.199 --> 00:42:13.519
And so it this the constant emotional roller coaster without a plan for the human to recover is a huge potential negative prognostic indicator.
00:42:13.679 --> 00:42:19.039
So we just tell them slap this sucker on your fridge or someplace where you'll see it if you need it.
00:42:19.280 --> 00:42:22.719
And you can just pick from this menu of things that will help you recover.
00:42:22.800 --> 00:42:31.199
And during the course, we you know walk through for people as individuals, like, hey, you know, they don't have to share anything they don't want to with us, but like, hey, as you're looking at this, is there anything that feels like it would work for you?
00:42:31.360 --> 00:42:36.079
Circle it, you know, like so it's easy to find when you're feeling really emotionally dysregulated.
00:42:36.400 --> 00:42:36.719
Yeah.
00:42:37.039 --> 00:42:41.679
The other one that I really like is one that we call the advocacy compass.
00:42:42.000 --> 00:42:58.000
And it's basically like a little script for clients when they feel like they are being dismissed or not being heard, or they're not exactly sure how to speak up for themselves or for their dog.
00:42:58.159 --> 00:43:04.960
And so it's sort of like, hey, if you disagree or you feel uncertain about something, like here's some things that you can say.
00:43:05.199 --> 00:43:07.679
When you feel dismissed, hear some things that you can say.
00:43:07.840 --> 00:43:09.840
When you need more information, here's some things.
00:43:10.079 --> 00:43:20.559
So it's helpful for folks who either might be feeling unsure or might be conflict averse, where it's like, I don't want to say something that's gonna make somebody upset.
00:43:20.880 --> 00:43:31.760
It gives them a little bit of confidence to advocate for themselves and their dog with their providers in a way that is collaborative, not you know, defensive or prickly.
00:43:32.079 --> 00:43:38.159
And I think that can really help for them not just to see some examples of what they can say, but to know that it's okay to do that, right?
00:43:38.320 --> 00:43:44.159
Like you can speak up for yourself and your dog in a way that doesn't make things feel worse, right?
00:43:44.480 --> 00:43:44.719
Yeah.
00:43:44.880 --> 00:43:48.480
And we can like we talk about how to make an emergency kit for your dog and stuff like that too.
00:43:48.559 --> 00:43:52.559
Like you can keep that little affixy script, the the compass, in your emergency kit.
00:43:52.719 --> 00:43:55.599
So you can take it with you if you needed to.
00:43:55.920 --> 00:43:59.599
Any place you're going with your dog, just laminate it, take it with you, and you'd be like, okay, I'm in my car.
00:44:00.000 --> 00:44:00.960
I'm going into my vet.
00:44:01.039 --> 00:44:01.760
I'm stressed out.
00:44:01.920 --> 00:44:04.000
Like I'm not sure my vet really gets what I'm dealing with.
00:44:04.320 --> 00:44:06.639
I'm going to just review these techniques.
00:44:06.719 --> 00:44:07.920
It's right here in the bag.
00:44:08.000 --> 00:44:09.679
I'm in my go bag for my dog, right?
00:44:09.760 --> 00:44:14.000
So if you don't own a laminator, you can take a picture of it on your phone.
00:44:15.679 --> 00:44:18.480
I could just bring it into the 21st century.
00:44:19.199 --> 00:44:25.360
If I didn't have books piled on it, I would show you the fact that I have laminating sheets on my desk right now.
00:44:27.920 --> 00:44:32.239
Because I have my phone to take pictures with right here in my hand.
00:44:34.559 --> 00:44:35.440
Always with me.
00:44:36.079 --> 00:44:43.280
So I love how organized and supportive all of these things are and really accessible, right?
00:44:43.360 --> 00:44:47.519
That's a buzzword, but also a really important focus.
00:44:47.840 --> 00:44:53.599
One of your side quests is to help neurodivergent individuals care for their complex pets.
00:44:53.760 --> 00:44:57.119
Tell us more about how we're able to do that.
00:44:57.519 --> 00:45:03.360
Well, I mean, I I am surrounded by neurodivergent people and M1.
00:45:04.079 --> 00:45:08.480
So when I and I, you know, advocate for some neurodivergent kids.
00:45:08.960 --> 00:45:15.360
And what I have noticed is one, I really love that, which is not surprising because I do the work that I do, right?
00:45:15.599 --> 00:45:29.119
And if you are working in both of those zones, you'll very quickly see a lot of crossover between managing a complex pet and living with neurodivergent people and being a neurodivergent person.
00:45:29.280 --> 00:45:46.639
Like environment, we talk about, you know, Urs and I talk about this in um in our own practices, um, you know, how we're setting up environmental accommodations, how we are teaching coping strategies, all things that people that are neurodivergent, if they've had the the privilege of having some support, are familiar with.
00:45:46.960 --> 00:45:51.760
So I just happen to really love uh working with people that are neurodivergent.
00:45:51.840 --> 00:45:55.519
Like the other day I had a client that was texting in and it was just coming off like really rude.
00:45:55.599 --> 00:45:57.280
I was like, why is she being so spicy?
00:45:57.519 --> 00:46:03.519
And I was like, I wonder if this is just like a really direct person, right?
00:46:03.679 --> 00:46:11.039
And darn soon we got to the appointment and it was like, yes, three minutes and 30 seconds ago, my dog did blah blah blah.
00:46:11.119 --> 00:46:12.159
It's like, ah, right?
00:46:12.320 --> 00:46:20.400
You know, like so so, and then for me, it was so much easier to be like, all right, this is this not client, is not trying to be mean.
00:46:20.480 --> 00:46:25.599
Like she's just really upset that actually this process that I asked her to do is very inconvenient and kind of a pain in the ass.
00:46:25.840 --> 00:46:26.719
And I was like, you know what?
00:46:26.800 --> 00:46:30.800
You're right, it is a pain in the ass, and it's been on my list of fix for like 20 years, right?
00:46:30.880 --> 00:46:32.719
I'm gonna like escalate it, right?
00:46:32.960 --> 00:46:53.840
So for me, I I'm my practice is certainly not perfect at this, but we're constantly working to make the delivery of our information easier to access, not just by trying to make it more compatible for people with different brains, but also to make it simpler to read, more fun to take action on.
00:46:53.920 --> 00:47:00.320
And those are all things that are just constantly moving parts in my practice that I really want to continue to improve.
00:47:00.800 --> 00:47:09.840
But it's just because I I just love it and I see so many cool things from all of the neurodivergent people that's around me.
00:47:10.079 --> 00:47:31.039
And I see that people that don't have the experience of learning about autism and ADHD and these um associated comorbidities or co-occurring conditions that can come with them, they're not able to support families that are supporting complex plants in exactly the same way because they just don't have the depth of experience.
00:47:31.440 --> 00:47:33.360
So I love it because I love complexity.
00:47:33.440 --> 00:47:36.639
If you don't love complexity, you should never don't be a veterinary behaviorist, right?
00:47:37.519 --> 00:47:38.880
So so I love it.
00:47:39.039 --> 00:47:40.559
I love helping um these folks.
00:47:40.639 --> 00:47:42.559
I love how creative their brains are.
00:47:42.880 --> 00:47:50.079
And my hope is to continue to be a more and more safe place for families that are managing all of this.
00:47:50.400 --> 00:47:57.679
Because um, you know, like like Ursa, I'm in this field partially because I love people and I love the human animal bond.
00:47:57.840 --> 00:47:59.199
I love dogs, I love aggressive dogs.
00:47:59.280 --> 00:48:00.320
They're so interesting, right?
00:48:00.400 --> 00:48:02.800
I love aggressive cats, so spicy and fascinating.
00:48:02.880 --> 00:48:04.239
And I'm like, oh wow, look at you.
00:48:04.320 --> 00:48:06.719
That was that was a hilarious choice.
00:48:06.960 --> 00:48:10.559
And um, wow, very smart.
00:48:10.639 --> 00:48:12.320
Um, but that's gonna we have that's a problem.
00:48:12.400 --> 00:48:13.679
We're gonna fix that, right?
00:48:13.840 --> 00:48:22.159
Um, it's very um fulfilling, but also fun because it allows for so much more, invites so much more creativity.
00:48:22.400 --> 00:48:24.239
So I'm just having a really great time with it.
00:48:24.320 --> 00:48:25.519
But it's it is actually hard.
00:48:25.679 --> 00:48:36.320
Like I was working on some like disability access stuff yesterday, and I was like, gosh, this is gonna take me like two days to try to fix this, like two full days of work to try to fix this session, right?
00:48:36.400 --> 00:48:40.480
And I was like, dang, this is gonna, I'm gonna have to set this like an appointment with myself, right?
00:48:40.880 --> 00:48:42.480
But you know, we keep working on it.
00:48:42.639 --> 00:48:52.320
I think, you know, I started doing Brazilian jujitsu like a year ago, and it was the first time as an adult I'd ever tried to learn anything brand new to me.
00:48:52.639 --> 00:48:56.880
And let me tell you, it hands me my ass every day whenever I go in.
00:48:56.960 --> 00:49:01.599
I never want to get on the mat because I know I'm gonna feel like an idiot, right?
00:49:01.760 --> 00:49:03.360
And I'm not gonna know what I'm doing.
00:49:03.519 --> 00:49:07.599
I've been told many times how to do the thing, I can't remember it, right?
00:49:07.760 --> 00:49:14.800
And so it's actually been really helpful for me because I'm like, this is what our clients are going through, right?
00:49:14.960 --> 00:49:26.000
Like they are just starting from scratch, learning something new, and I'm demonstrating something to them that you know, I'm gonna trot off in like 30 seconds about at my usual rate of speech.
00:49:26.559 --> 00:49:30.880
And they're gonna nod at me like I nod at my professors on the map and be like, mm-hmm.
00:49:31.360 --> 00:49:32.239
Got it.
00:49:32.960 --> 00:49:34.159
And no idea.
00:49:34.719 --> 00:49:40.239
Not only are they learning something completely new to them, but we expect them to then teach it to their teacher.
00:49:41.039 --> 00:49:41.119
Right.
00:49:41.360 --> 00:49:41.599
Yes.
00:49:42.159 --> 00:49:43.519
That I think about that all the time.
00:49:43.599 --> 00:49:50.880
I'm like, I I have this green learner and this other green learner, and and we're expecting one to teach the other.
00:49:51.039 --> 00:49:54.239
Like that requires so much patience, right?
00:49:54.480 --> 00:50:01.280
We can't just expect them to pick up on it automatically so that they can also then instruct another living creature.
00:50:01.440 --> 00:50:02.000
Yeah, exactly.
00:50:02.239 --> 00:50:03.760
No, look, I've been in jujitsu a year.
00:50:03.840 --> 00:50:05.119
I still can't tie my belt right.
00:50:05.280 --> 00:50:05.679
Right, right.
00:50:07.920 --> 00:50:09.840
I, you know, I say this all the time.
00:50:10.000 --> 00:50:17.280
I think that our profession is one of the few where we're actually expected to teach somebody else how to do our job.
00:50:17.599 --> 00:50:22.400
Like, I don't go to my hairstylist and ask her how to teach me how to cut my own hair.
00:50:22.480 --> 00:50:22.639
Right.
00:50:22.800 --> 00:50:23.199
She does it.
00:50:23.280 --> 00:50:24.719
And then I walk out and I'm done.
00:50:24.880 --> 00:50:28.000
I don't take my car to the mechanic and be like, tell me how to change, right?
00:50:28.079 --> 00:50:28.880
You know, whatever.
00:50:29.039 --> 00:50:38.320
Um, but my clients are supposed to do my job of changing the behavior of their pet, which is so complex and so hard.
00:50:38.480 --> 00:50:39.039
That's so true.
00:50:39.360 --> 00:50:51.760
And you know, I think it it ties to the idea of like supporting neurodivergent, not just really any client, but especially neurodivergent people, of which, you know, I don't have a diagnosis, but like at least I'm surrounded by people that do.
00:50:51.920 --> 00:50:53.440
Everyone I love does.
00:50:54.159 --> 00:50:58.800
And I think for me, it's so much about like staying curious, right?
00:50:59.199 --> 00:51:11.440
And and wanting to understand how my clients uh think and and see the world and process and you know what's compelling for them and what's easy for them, what's hard for them.
00:51:11.599 --> 00:51:13.760
And it's just like what we do with dogs.
00:51:13.920 --> 00:51:16.239
Like, I want to be curious about this dog.
00:51:16.320 --> 00:51:17.679
Like, what makes them tick?
00:51:17.760 --> 00:51:18.239
What do they love?
00:51:18.320 --> 00:51:18.960
What do they hate?
00:51:19.280 --> 00:51:25.679
It's to me, it's just, you know, that curiosity about just other living creatures that aren't me that don't live in my head.
00:51:26.079 --> 00:51:30.880
It's so enriching to understand how other beings move through the world.
00:51:31.199 --> 00:51:42.079
And not just important for me to be able to help them, but it's also uh, you know, an honor, I think, to be able to understand that from somebody else's point of view.
00:51:42.159 --> 00:51:50.000
Like it makes things so much better when we get the privilege of like seeing how somebody else experiences the world.
00:51:50.320 --> 00:52:04.480
So, you know, just to kind of throw that in there in terms of, you know, I don't have firsthand experience with neurodivergence, but you know, we treat everyone like they're an individual and and try to get to the bottom of like what helps you specifically, right?
00:52:04.800 --> 00:52:05.360
Absolutely.
00:52:05.840 --> 00:52:09.360
Yeah, you're saying like all that learning, it's also all the unlearning, right?
00:52:09.440 --> 00:52:13.679
Like whether whether an owner has had normal dogs their whole life, right?
00:52:13.760 --> 00:52:20.079
And so now they're having to like unlearn, like, okay, my that dog tolerated all this stuff that I'm not supposed to do, right?
00:52:20.400 --> 00:52:20.960
A hundred percent.
00:52:21.599 --> 00:52:29.519
The amount of noise out there and in the myths that surround our profession, like the unlearning is really hard.
00:52:30.000 --> 00:52:30.400
It's real.
00:52:30.719 --> 00:52:31.280
It's intense.
00:52:31.440 --> 00:52:33.199
Yeah, it's intense.
00:52:33.440 --> 00:52:48.719
Yeah, we we take that on in our coaching stuff too, because it's such an important part of feeling good about the work you're doing with Complex Dog is being able to release some of the myths that you know you you that were working, quote unquote, or for you previously.
00:52:48.880 --> 00:52:51.039
Maybe they were, maybe not, just you got by with it.
00:52:51.119 --> 00:52:55.519
Um, and now you can't because you have a dog and that really needs you to know.
00:52:55.840 --> 00:52:56.159
Yeah.
00:52:56.320 --> 00:52:56.639
Yeah.
00:52:57.519 --> 00:53:00.960
Well, and it's hard to let go of things that you've internalized.
00:53:01.039 --> 00:53:01.760
I mean, we know that.
00:53:01.840 --> 00:53:02.800
We all know that, right?
00:53:03.119 --> 00:53:05.920
Again, like as parents, as women, like you name it.
00:53:06.320 --> 00:53:10.320
God, I was a teenager in the 90s and I'll never recover from that.
00:53:10.559 --> 00:53:28.159
Like, so it's really hard to let go of things you've internalized, even when it's something like, you know, treating your dog a certain way or whatever, like that can be so hard to unpack and let go of and move on from and change your mindset.
00:53:28.320 --> 00:53:35.440
And I mean, I know we even have research to show that like people have with entrenched views, the more evidence you show, the more entrenched they get, right?
00:53:35.519 --> 00:53:36.239
In some cases.
00:53:36.400 --> 00:53:48.480
And so that is such a challenging factor in working with folks who have these sort of like internalized ideas about what the life with their dog should look like or what they should how they should be treating the dog or whatever.
00:53:48.719 --> 00:53:58.079
Um I had a client the other day that I could see, I was meeting with them virtually, and their dog put their feet up on the desk and they were like, oh my god, I'm so sorry.
00:53:58.159 --> 00:53:59.760
I can't believe that they did that in front of you.
00:53:59.920 --> 00:54:01.280
And I was like, I don't care.
00:54:01.519 --> 00:54:02.320
Yeah, exactly.
00:54:02.639 --> 00:54:03.119
I know.
00:54:03.760 --> 00:54:08.239
Like my dog literally eats from my plate, I feed her from my plate when I eat.
00:54:08.400 --> 00:54:10.880
Yeah, like I don't care.
00:54:11.119 --> 00:54:13.039
I just want dogs to live a happy life.
00:54:13.199 --> 00:54:15.440
If it's a problem for you, we can talk about it.
00:54:15.519 --> 00:54:15.760
Right.
00:54:15.920 --> 00:54:21.280
But like, in no world is your dog putting their feet on your desk a problem for me that I'm even going to register.
00:54:21.360 --> 00:54:22.400
Like, yeah, no kidding.
00:54:22.559 --> 00:54:23.039
Yeah, that happens.
00:54:23.280 --> 00:54:25.199
Unless they're gonna growl at you and bite you.
00:54:25.440 --> 00:54:26.559
Yeah, like, yeah, yeah.
00:54:26.719 --> 00:54:29.119
Yeah, I don't want your dog to bite you or anyone else.
00:54:29.199 --> 00:54:30.239
And beyond that, I don't care.
00:54:30.480 --> 00:54:30.719
Exactly.
00:54:30.880 --> 00:54:34.000
Let them get on the couch, let them get on the bed, it's all good.
00:54:34.239 --> 00:54:36.000
Totally, yeah, yeah.
00:54:36.239 --> 00:54:40.239
So even unlearning stuff like that, that's like relatively harmless, right?
00:54:40.400 --> 00:54:44.559
Yeah, but still, I'm like, you don't have to worry about it if it doesn't bother you.
00:54:44.960 --> 00:54:45.440
Truth.
00:54:45.840 --> 00:54:46.480
Yeah.
00:54:46.800 --> 00:54:56.079
Well, we talked about a lot of stuff, but if you had one thing that you want to leave with the hive mind, which is our audience, to take away from today's episode, what would that be?
00:54:56.719 --> 00:55:00.480
I would say you're not failing your pet, right?
00:55:00.719 --> 00:55:04.800
Your pet is complex, complexity needs support.
00:55:05.039 --> 00:55:09.039
You're doing your best, and that is all that anybody can do.
00:55:09.519 --> 00:55:11.360
So you are not failing your pet.
00:55:12.079 --> 00:55:22.559
And I think on top of that is that uh there's never been a better time to be an amazing pet person with a complex pet because there is so much knowledge now.
00:55:22.800 --> 00:55:25.679
You just have to land in the right spot, right?
00:55:25.760 --> 00:55:28.239
You just need to connect with the right people.
00:55:28.639 --> 00:55:32.960
And when you do, you probably see things change so much and you'll feel so much better.
00:55:33.440 --> 00:55:41.360
I think it's actually a really exciting time to be a person in that position, although, you know, I didn't wouldn't say that people want to walk into that for no reason.
00:55:41.599 --> 00:55:59.840
Um, for pet professionals and veterinarians that might listen to your podcast, what I would love them to remember is as much as possible to work towards releasing the idea of owner blame for these situations because I hear it so much.
00:56:00.000 --> 00:56:13.760
And in my veterinary colleagues, sometimes I hear them withholding treatment from these patients because they don't feel like the families have tried hard enough with say exercise or training, right?
00:56:13.920 --> 00:56:25.519
And that is a a problem because there's no other part of veterinary medicine where we would withhold treatment because the clients are not doing everything we told them to do, right?
00:56:26.159 --> 00:56:33.199
And the more we blame our clients for not doing stuff, the more resentful and burnout we get.
00:56:34.159 --> 00:56:36.800
Which is terrible for our profession, our mental health.
00:56:36.960 --> 00:56:40.320
So the more we can just remember, people are doing the best they can for what they have.
00:56:40.480 --> 00:56:43.679
I know it's not my not my saying, I don't know where it came from, but it's true.
00:56:43.920 --> 00:56:46.480
I think the happier we are able to be, right?
00:56:46.559 --> 00:56:52.000
We can deliver the information, we can encourage them, we can't make anybody do anything.
00:56:52.239 --> 00:56:58.639
And if they aren't able to do something, let's say they're not able to do it versus they're not doing it.
00:56:59.199 --> 00:57:07.360
So that we can continue to meet them where they are and encourage them versus getting more angry and more resentful that they're just not doing the thing, right?
00:57:09.280 --> 00:57:09.519
Right.
00:57:10.239 --> 00:57:18.000
And I I would add to that, um, you know, making assumptions about what clients can, can't, will, and won't do.
00:57:18.159 --> 00:57:24.239
And I say this as a recovering uh person who tells myself stories about everything, right?
00:57:24.639 --> 00:57:32.159
Like I spent a lot of my life assuming what other people were thinking and feeling about me or whatever, right?
00:57:32.639 --> 00:57:35.199
And um it doesn't serve you, right?
00:57:35.360 --> 00:57:44.000
It doesn't serve you, it doesn't serve your client to make assumptions about what they say, you know, about their behavior, what they're again willing to do or able to do.
00:57:44.480 --> 00:57:49.360
I think it ties back to staying curious, asking, like collaborating.
00:57:49.519 --> 00:57:50.559
Hey, how does this feel?
00:57:50.719 --> 00:57:51.519
How does this sound?
00:57:51.599 --> 00:57:52.559
What do you think about this?
00:57:52.719 --> 00:57:53.840
What was hard about that?
00:57:53.920 --> 00:57:55.119
Like what stopped you?
00:57:55.599 --> 00:58:02.079
Rather than just sort of closing off and assuming, like, oh, well, they just don't feel like it, or they don't want to, or they won't.
00:58:02.239 --> 00:58:04.480
Um, you know, I hear that language from other trainers.
00:58:04.719 --> 00:58:04.880
Yeah.
00:58:05.039 --> 00:58:05.519
And I get it.
00:58:05.679 --> 00:58:08.880
Like it can totally working with people and pets is frustrating.
00:58:09.199 --> 00:58:11.599
And there are times where you want to scream and pull your hair out.
00:58:11.679 --> 00:58:13.760
And I love people and I still feel that way sometimes.
00:58:14.320 --> 00:58:28.239
But you know, once you get the venting out of the way, I think the praxis of staying curious and being collaborative and and working with what the person is willing to do, you know, being okay with that.
00:58:28.639 --> 00:58:30.639
Saying, like, okay, they're not willing to try that.
00:58:30.719 --> 00:58:31.360
So next.
00:58:31.440 --> 00:58:32.159
Yeah, next thing.
00:58:32.559 --> 00:58:33.039
Yeah, yeah.
00:58:33.119 --> 00:58:33.280
Right.
00:58:33.519 --> 00:58:34.079
Yeah, yeah.
00:58:34.239 --> 00:58:34.400
Right.
00:58:34.639 --> 00:58:34.880
Yeah.
00:58:34.960 --> 00:58:37.199
So if we compare those two things, right.
00:58:37.760 --> 00:58:38.480
Can we spark some joy?
00:58:38.800 --> 00:58:38.880
Right.
00:58:39.440 --> 00:58:46.159
If we compare for families that are managing these complex pets, like, hey, yeah, maybe you've taken some wrong turns, whatever.
00:58:46.239 --> 00:58:47.440
Like, we can work on it, right?
00:58:47.599 --> 00:58:49.679
Let's let's change it, let's try some new things.
00:58:49.840 --> 00:59:01.840
And we compare that with our practitioners, being able to meet them where they are and not blaming them for not being able to do 80 million things, you know, not being able to get on the mat and be a black belt on week seven, right?
00:59:03.280 --> 00:59:09.360
If we can do that, then we have a lot stronger support for the human animal bond.
00:59:09.599 --> 00:59:15.840
And that's what keeps our patients in their homes where hopefully they're safe and belong.
00:59:16.320 --> 00:59:19.360
And then everybody's happy and the world is a better place.
00:59:19.920 --> 00:59:20.239
Yay.
00:59:20.800 --> 00:59:23.599
Yay! Butterflies and rainbows.
00:59:24.719 --> 00:59:25.599
Unicorns.
00:59:26.559 --> 00:59:27.039
100%.
00:59:29.599 --> 00:59:34.800
So I want to kind of pull back the curtain a little bit and get to know you as people.
00:59:35.199 --> 00:59:37.920
Um, maybe completely off topic, right?
00:59:38.000 --> 00:59:41.199
We don't have to kind of even stay focused in the behavior world.
00:59:41.360 --> 00:59:51.599
But uh, you know, I want you guys to share a story, an anecdote, kind of something that happens in your real life, or even just a question maybe that you wish we had asked.
00:59:52.000 --> 01:00:03.280
You know, I once worked, I once worked at a veterinary clinic where every Christmas they had a veterinarian who had a journal that she kept all year of funny things that people said.
01:00:03.920 --> 01:00:08.800
And then at the the holiday party, they would guess who said what.
01:00:09.039 --> 01:00:09.760
Oh, interesting.
01:00:10.000 --> 01:00:13.280
And the the that's amazing.
01:00:13.440 --> 01:00:13.760
Yeah.
01:00:14.559 --> 01:00:15.760
Was really funny.
01:00:16.000 --> 01:00:19.039
And uh, I showed up in that book so many times.
01:00:19.280 --> 01:00:21.519
I was like, I said that.
01:00:21.760 --> 01:00:22.719
I can't, okay.
01:00:22.800 --> 01:00:24.559
I guess I probably did say that.
01:00:24.880 --> 01:00:26.239
That's that's cracked.
01:00:26.400 --> 01:00:30.159
But then, of course, put on the spot, I'm like, I can't come up with anything clever but fun.
01:00:31.599 --> 01:00:37.679
My my best friend will be like, uh who uh Elise also knows and we've worked with, she's a trainer as well.
01:00:37.840 --> 01:00:41.199
She'll be like, oh yeah, remember that funny or clever insightful thing you said.
01:00:41.280 --> 01:00:43.199
And I'm like, no, I don't actually.
01:00:43.440 --> 01:00:45.039
That was really smart of me.
01:00:45.199 --> 01:00:45.599
Wow.
01:00:46.639 --> 01:00:48.719
Past me was brilliant.
01:00:49.599 --> 01:00:50.800
Past me was one time.
01:00:50.960 --> 01:00:52.559
Oh, I do have a funny one.
01:00:52.800 --> 01:00:56.559
One time I got this letter in the mail when I was working in New York City.
01:00:56.719 --> 01:01:02.400
It was this like long, glowing letter about how she was so happy she had come to meet me.
01:01:02.639 --> 01:01:04.800
And, you know, she did everything that I said.
01:01:05.039 --> 01:01:06.239
Her dog was doing so much better.
01:01:06.320 --> 01:01:09.039
And then she listed off the things that she thought I said.
01:01:09.360 --> 01:01:11.760
Oh man, that was totally not what you said.
01:01:12.079 --> 01:01:16.000
And let me just tell you, no, none of these things.
01:01:16.400 --> 01:01:17.840
I was like, wow.
01:01:18.159 --> 01:01:19.599
I mean, it's funny.
01:01:19.840 --> 01:01:21.920
I'm glad your pet's better.
01:01:22.480 --> 01:01:23.599
Despite this.
01:01:24.480 --> 01:01:35.519
But if if you had bet me$20 about this list of things, I would have been like, you're gonna need seven more veterinary behaviorists after that.
01:01:36.880 --> 01:01:37.280
Right?
01:01:39.280 --> 01:01:47.760
I was, I I wish I had kept it because I, you know, you know, it should like lured me in with the like, you know, oh, you're so amazing, right?
01:01:47.840 --> 01:01:48.719
Like, I love my job.
01:01:48.800 --> 01:01:52.000
I get so much positive reinforcement in my job, I don't get anywhere else, right?
01:01:52.800 --> 01:01:55.360
So I was like, of course I'm getting a thank you know, because I'm amazing.
01:01:55.519 --> 01:01:56.960
And then I'm looking through the list.
01:01:57.119 --> 01:01:58.639
I was like, oh my god though.
01:01:58.880 --> 01:01:59.360
What?
01:02:01.760 --> 01:02:02.079
What?
01:02:02.639 --> 01:02:03.920
Yeah, yeah.
01:02:04.400 --> 01:02:12.239
And that's why I learned to take what people say with a grain of like when a client is like, oh, my other trainer told me, blah, blah, blah.
01:02:12.400 --> 01:02:14.639
And you know, there was a time where I'd be like, what the fuck?
01:02:14.800 --> 01:02:16.400
Like, I can't believe it, blah, blah, blah.
01:02:16.639 --> 01:02:19.519
And now I'm like, okay, that's what you heard.
01:02:19.760 --> 01:02:28.880
But because I had my my best example is I had a client, it was a family, they adopted a dog, the dog was scared of the husband, just living in the house, scared of the husband.
01:02:28.960 --> 01:02:32.480
And, you know, we were doing some conditioning, right?
01:02:32.559 --> 01:02:34.320
Just conditioning to the appearance of the husband.
01:02:34.400 --> 01:02:37.199
So, like, hey, when the husband shows up, treats happen.
01:02:37.360 --> 01:02:40.239
And they were like, Okay, so we wait for her to stop barking and then we throw treats.
01:02:40.320 --> 01:02:41.679
And I was like, no, no, no, no, no.
01:02:42.000 --> 01:02:43.360
Husband means treats.
01:02:43.519 --> 01:02:48.480
And we, I reiterated this every session for probably four or five sessions.
01:02:48.639 --> 01:02:54.960
And then in my last uh session that I had with them, they were like, Oh my gosh, she's so much better because we did exactly what you said.
01:02:55.039 --> 01:02:57.760
We waited for her to stop barking and then threw the treats.
01:02:57.920 --> 01:02:59.039
I was like, Great, great.
01:02:59.119 --> 01:02:59.840
I'm glad she's better.
01:03:00.000 --> 01:03:00.320
I love it.
01:03:00.400 --> 01:03:00.800
I love it.
01:03:00.880 --> 01:03:01.760
I mean, it can work that way.
01:03:01.840 --> 01:03:02.480
That's amazing.
01:03:02.880 --> 01:03:13.039
And I was like, oh my God, like you can I can't trust what and it just makes me think about you know how much weight we put on like eyewitnesses in our culture.
01:03:13.679 --> 01:03:14.159
I yeah.
01:03:14.559 --> 01:03:16.559
And it's like, no, no, no.
01:03:16.719 --> 01:03:20.800
People can't rem literally can't remember anything else.
01:03:21.280 --> 01:03:22.320
I have their medical records, right?
01:03:22.400 --> 01:03:24.000
So when they're like, my vet's said blah, blah, blah.
01:03:24.079 --> 01:03:25.360
I'm like, nope.
01:03:25.679 --> 01:03:26.719
Oh, yeah, I don't think so.
01:03:27.039 --> 01:03:28.400
Nope, they said it all.
01:03:28.719 --> 01:03:34.159
I write down everything because I'm like, I want to be clear that I can go back and be like, here's what you said.
01:03:35.360 --> 01:03:35.679
True.
01:03:35.920 --> 01:03:37.039
Here's what I said.
01:03:37.199 --> 01:03:39.280
It was not what you think.
01:03:39.760 --> 01:03:44.320
But yeah, you know, I try to give people the benefit of the doubt.
01:03:44.480 --> 01:03:51.840
And uh, and that just that has just been reinforced over the course of my career because yeah, yeah, you can't trust an eyewitness.
01:03:52.159 --> 01:03:53.679
No, I mean, I've been the eyewitness.
01:03:53.760 --> 01:04:03.280
Like I was just talking to um, because you know, I'm a medical advocate for a lot of medically complex people, and I was just talking to one of the practitioners the other day, and I was like, Yeah, so I did XYZ and I was giving the medication three times a day.
01:04:03.360 --> 01:04:05.039
And the doctor was like, I'm sorry, what?
01:04:05.199 --> 01:04:06.880
And I was like, I'm sorry what?
01:04:07.519 --> 01:04:10.239
She's like, you should only be doing that two times a day.
01:04:10.320 --> 01:04:12.960
I was like, I could have sworn you said three times a day.
01:04:13.360 --> 01:04:14.800
I would never say three times a day.
01:04:14.880 --> 01:04:17.280
I was like, damn it, I'm a I'm a doctor.
01:04:19.920 --> 01:04:20.960
I know, right?
01:04:21.280 --> 01:04:23.199
So yeah, that's true.
01:04:23.360 --> 01:04:24.639
It's just amazing.
01:04:25.360 --> 01:04:28.960
Well, here at the Behavior Buzz, we know you are all busy bees.
01:04:29.199 --> 01:04:32.320
Get a busy bees who live and die by the science like we do.
01:04:32.400 --> 01:04:36.960
So we'll put all of the references uh mentioned from today's show on the website.
01:04:37.119 --> 01:04:40.719
So buzz on over to the honeypot page to find those.
01:04:41.119 --> 01:04:42.559
Thank you guys so much, Dr.
01:04:42.719 --> 01:04:43.519
C and Ursa.
01:04:43.760 --> 01:04:47.280
This was such a fun topic, such a fun conversation.
01:04:47.440 --> 01:04:48.960
We got to laugh a lot.
01:04:49.199 --> 01:04:54.559
I love that you are champions for spicy pets and uh making the world better place.
01:04:57.360 --> 01:05:00.559
That's right, making the world a better place for everyone.
01:05:00.800 --> 01:05:13.199
We had an amazing conversation about astrophysics and and I appreciate that you have this amazing ability to create important, vital, and accessible content.
01:05:13.280 --> 01:05:14.800
So thank you so much for all of that.
01:05:15.119 --> 01:05:17.199
Yeah, can we talk about dark matter next time?
01:05:17.360 --> 01:05:17.519
Sure.
01:05:17.840 --> 01:05:18.400
Yeah, next time.
01:05:18.639 --> 01:05:19.679
I think we definitely should.
01:05:19.840 --> 01:05:22.159
And the and the boson particles.
01:05:22.639 --> 01:05:23.280
Yes.
01:05:23.920 --> 01:05:25.760
I don't even know what those are.
01:05:26.159 --> 01:05:26.800
I know.
01:05:29.280 --> 01:05:30.639
It'll blow your mind.
01:05:30.960 --> 01:05:33.039
I'm gonna learn a lot next time.
01:05:34.480 --> 01:05:35.679
Thanks so much for having us.
01:05:35.760 --> 01:05:36.159
It's great.
01:05:36.559 --> 01:05:37.679
Thank you so much.
01:05:40.639 --> 01:05:45.519
Thank you to our premium sponsor, PRN PharmaCal, the makers of Reconcile.
01:05:45.679 --> 01:05:52.559
Reconcile is an FDA approved drug for the treatment of canine separation anxiety in conjunction with the behavior modification plan.
01:05:53.039 --> 01:05:59.760
PRN PharmaCal is committed to meeting the evolving needs of modern veterinary medicine and dedicated to developing products.
01:06:00.239 --> 01:06:03.119
To strengthen the bond between pets and their people.
01:06:04.719 --> 01:06:10.480
And HiveMind, we thank you especially because without listeners like you, we would have nothing to buzz on about.
01:06:10.639 --> 01:06:16.239
So grab a drink or a mocktail or a coffee and join us next time for cocktails and conversations.
01:06:16.480 --> 01:06:18.639
Follow us on all our socials.
01:06:18.880 --> 01:06:27.360
Facebook at Behavior Buzz, Instagram at BehaviorBuzz, and our website, behaviorbuzz.com.
01:06:27.840 --> 01:06:29.119
Be positive.
01:06:29.519 --> 01:06:30.719
Be informed.
01:06:31.280 --> 01:06:33.280
Now buzz off.
01:06:35.519 --> 01:06:37.519
Okay, if you don't like it, that's fine.
01:06:37.840 --> 01:06:38.480
All right.
01:06:42.639 --> 01:06:44.000
I know he doesn't have to go out.
01:06:44.079 --> 01:06:46.960
I let him out literally right before this podcast.
01:06:47.039 --> 01:06:48.960
And he's just like, me.
01:06:50.159 --> 01:06:52.000
I have so much FOMO.
01:06:52.159 --> 01:06:54.159
Please have so much FOMO.
01:06:54.880 --> 01:06:55.920
Oh my God.
01:06:58.480 --> 01:07:00.000
Hi, Marshall.
01:07:01.280 --> 01:07:02.719
Oh goodness.
01:07:04.559 --> 01:07:14.800
Clients don't know, even with explicit verbal instruction, what information their veterinary behaviorist needs to change their plan and support their pest.
01:07:15.679 --> 01:07:16.400
Their pest.
01:07:16.559 --> 01:07:17.039
Their pests.
01:07:17.440 --> 01:07:19.280
Their pest bests.
01:07:19.679 --> 01:07:20.320
Yes.
01:07:20.719 --> 01:07:21.519
Okay, wait.
01:07:22.639 --> 01:07:24.880
I thought we did this one already, but we didn't.
01:07:25.679 --> 01:07:25.840
No.
01:07:26.239 --> 01:07:27.519
Now we're doing it.
01:07:28.079 --> 01:07:28.880
Hold on.
01:07:29.280 --> 01:07:32.239
Good good thing we can cut out while we think about it.
01:07:33.360 --> 01:07:35.360
We should get to play the Jeopardy theme.
01:07:46.880 --> 01:07:48.239
Are you guys hearing banging?
01:07:48.480 --> 01:07:48.719
Yes.
01:07:48.800 --> 01:07:50.159
I'm getting it.
01:07:50.639 --> 01:07:51.920
Getting poke put in.
01:07:52.000 --> 01:07:52.480
So he's gonna be able to do that.
01:07:52.639 --> 01:07:55.039
We're gonna try and help drown it out as much as possible.
01:07:55.280 --> 01:07:56.400
Okay, I didn't hear that part.
01:07:56.480 --> 01:07:58.159
I was just like, are we gonna get in trouble with John?
01:07:58.719 --> 01:08:00.000
No, I'm gonna be in trouble with John.
01:08:00.400 --> 01:08:00.480
Yeah.
01:08:01.199 --> 01:08:01.840
Nope, it's your fault.
01:08:02.559 --> 01:08:03.599
Everything is your fault.