S3 E5: The Truth About Step-Parenting, Exes & Blended Families with Kris Byrnes

Before It Breaks Ep 5 VIDEO MASTER EDIT: Welcome back to Before It Breaks with Gabriella Pomare. This is the podcast where we talk about what happens before things break. But it's also about what happens after they do, because separation is rarely the end of the story. People meet new partners, they fall in love again, families expand, and children move between homes. New partners become step-parents and former partners remain connected because they share children. And suddenly you're not just building a relationship between two people. You're trying to create something new inside a family system that already has its own history and loyalties and routines and fears and relationships. And I think we often talk about blended families in sort of very neat language. We talk about moving on, finding love again, making a fresh start, becoming a new family. But the reality can be so much more complicated than that. You can fall completely in love with someone and still feel really insecure about the fact that they share children with somebody else. You can understand why they still need to communicate with an ex and still find that communication really difficult at times. And you can care deeply about your partner's children while also struggling with where you fit, what authority you have, how much you're expected to take on, and whether you're allowed to admit that sometimes step-parenting, it is hard. And there are also difficult questions for the parent entering the new relationship. How do you create security for a new partner without making your children feel displaced? How do you establish boundaries with an ex while still maintaining the co-parenting relationship that your kids need? How do you make room for a new relationship without asking your children to pretend the family they had before no longer mattered? And when everybody has competing needs, How do you work out what healthy boundaries actually look like? And so that is what we're gonna get into today. Dating when children are already part of the picture. Ex-partners remaining present in the background or sometimes very much in the foreground. Jealousy, insecurity, loyalty, step-parenting, blending families, and the conversations couples need to have if they're gonna make all of those relationships work together rather than against one another. And there's something people say after separation that's usually meant to be reassuring. You'll meet someone else. It's said almost as a promise, particularly in those first months when everything feels unfamiliar and the future you thought you were moving towards has suddenly disappeared. One day you'll feel differently. One day somebody new will come along. One day you'll fall in love again, and the heaviness of all of this will not feel so permanent. And sometimes, Yeah, that's exactly what happens. You do meet someone when you weren't expecting to, or perhaps you were very much hoping to, and suddenly there's that feeling you thought you might never have again. Somebody wants to know you. Somebody's asking questions about your life because the answers are still new to them. There are dinners and messages and that slightly ridiculous period at the beginning of a relationship where you can talk until midnight, even though you have to be awake at six. And for the first time in a long time, you start imagining a future that looks so much more exciting, not scary. But if there are kids involved, that future comes with an entire world that already existed before the relationship did. And I think that is one of the things we don't talk about enough when we start talking about dating after separation. You're not just meeting a person, you're meeting their whole history, you're meeting the kids they love more than anything. You're meeting a calendar that may already be divided into weekends and school nights and holidays and changeovers. I've been there, I get it. You're meeting a former partner who may still text and call and sit beside them at school events and discuss medical appointments and negotiate Christmas mornings and make decisions about the small human beings they created together. You're meeting traditions that you weren't there for and memories that you're not in. Photos from a whole nother life and the version of a person that you love that belong to a family structure that existed way before you arrived. And I don't think that any of that necessarily makes a new relationship less important, but it does make it different. Because falling in love with somebody who has children often means accepting that the relationship will never exist inside a completely sealed world of its own. There will be other people in the architecture. There'll be children whose needs sometimes disrupt your plans. And there may be an ex-partner who remains present, not because there's still romance, but because there's responsibility. There'll be weekends that, yeah, plans change at last minute, and holidays that require negotiation, school events where everyone's standing in the same place, pretending that none of it feels really awkward. And conversations that sometimes have to include a person that you didn't choose. Because they share a child with the person that you did. And I think we make people feel slightly ashamed for finding that hard. It is so hard. Because the socially acceptable response is supposed to be something like, Of course the kids come first. Of course I understand they need to speak to their ex. Of course I knew what I was signing up for. But I'm not sure people ever entirely know what they're signing up for. You can understand something intellectually. But still be surprised by what it feels like emotionally. You can know that your partner needs to communicate with their former partner and still feel something uncomfortable in your body when their name lights up on the phone late at night. You can absolutely believe that a child should have access to both parents and still feel disappointed when the weekend you thought would belong to the two of you changes because one of the kids needs something. Yeah, you can be secure and rational and mature and emotionally intelligent and still occasionally feel like there's a relationship history you'll never be able to compete with. Because another person shed pregnancy announcements and newborn nights and first birthdays and school enrollments and Christmas mornings and all of those enormous life moments, that bond that people, even after the romantic relationship has ended, have. And I think sometimes we're too quick to label that feeling jealousy. As though once we give it that name, the solution is simply to become less jealous. Maybe sometimes it is jealousy. Maybe sometimes it's grief for not getting to be first. Sometimes it's insecurity about where you fit. And sometimes it's the fear that no matter how loved you are, you will always be standing slightly outside a family story that again without you. Sometimes it's not about wanting the ex to disappear at all. It's about needing reassurance that there's actually room for you too. And that's so much more of a complicated conversation. Because there's an important distinction between asking your partner to erase their history and asking them to create security in the relationship they're building with you now. Those are not the same thing. If you're dating somebody with kids, the ex-partner cannot simply be treated like every other ex. There are kids connecting those two people. Which means there are conversations that have to happen and events they need to attend and decisions they do need to still make together. The former romantic relationship can end while the parenting relationship will continue for decades. And I do think that it's one of the hardest ideas for a new partner to genuinely absorb. Because most of us enter relationships with the expectation that there will be boundaries around the past. You know, the ex moves backwards, the new relationship moves forward. When there are kids, the lines are just not that neat. The past will occasionally text about tomorrow's school pickup. And the past will call because a child is sick. The past is standing ten meters away at Saturday morning sport. The past is in the family photos the children still keep because, of course, I mean, that's their family too. And if you treat every one of those things as evidence that the old relationship hasn't ended, the new relationship can become incredibly anxious. But equally, if the person with children dismisses every insecurity by saying, Well, you knew I had kids, that can create a completely different kind of loneliness. Because knowing somebody as children is not the same as knowing what it will feel like when their life has to bend around those children in a way that maybe yours previously didn't. And knowing there's an ex isn't the same as knowing what it feels like when your ex becomes part of your relationship's logistics. Knowing your partner has responsibilities is not the same as understanding how often those responsibilities are gonna interrupt spontaneity and intimacy and travel and finances, plans, everything that shapes your home. And I think that's why blended families require a level of honesty that first families sometimes don't need in quite the same way. You have to talk about the things that feel very unromantic very early. You have to talk about the ex. You have to talk about discipline. You have to talk about money. You have to talk about what happens if the children don't like you. And you have to talk about whether you're allowed to tell a child they can't speak to you in a particular way and whether your partner will support you if you do. You have to talk about how much authority you're going to have inside a home that you're also going to be living in. And you have to talk about whether you're expected to help parent without actually being allowed to parent. You have to talk about what the children come. First actually means, because that phrase sounds unquestionably correct until it's used to justify a relationship receiving whatever is left over after everyone else has had their needs met. Yeah, I get it. Kids should be protected. Children shouldn't be made responsible for adult insecurity. And kids shouldn't feel they need to compete with a new partner. But I don't think it's healthy for a couple relationship to become permanently disposable either. Because eventually, if you are building a life together, that relationship needs somewhere to stand. And I think that's one of the hardest parts of step parenting. It's that tension. You may be told not to overstep, and simultaneously you're expected to do school pickups. You're reminded that you're not the parent, or being asked to contribute financially, emotionally, and practically to the house. And you may be expected to love the kids as if they're your own. But also somehow know precisely when to step back because they're not. And that is extraordinarily complicated. I don't think we talk enough about how hard it can be, how lonely it can be. There are stepparents who adore the kids in their lives and still sometimes wish they had more freedom. There are stepparents who feel enormous affection, but not the same instinctive love the biological parents feel, and then they feel guilty for admitting it, even just to themselves. And there are people who entered a relationship believing love would be enough and later discovered that love doesn't automatically tell you how to handle loyalty conflicts, parenting styles, discipline, ex-partners, competing expectations, rules. And the moment a child says, Hey, you're not my mom. And I think we need to stop pretending that those feelings make someone a bad person. Because blending a family is not simply about finding a kind adult and placing them beside a parent and expecting love to spread evenly throughout the household. Families don't blend because adults announce they're blended. They blend through ordinary life, through repetition, through school mornings and dinners and long car trips and somebody remembering which cereal a child likes. They blend through sitting through sport in the rain and through giving a child space when they don't want to talk. And through being there without demanding gratitude, through allowing a relationship to grow at the pace the child can tolerate rather than the pace the adults would prefer. And perhaps most importantly, through respecting the fact that a child's original family doesn't disappear simply because a new one is being built around them. I think adults can be very tempted to rush that part because we're desperate for emotional certainty. We want to know everybody's okay. We want the children to know the new partner. We want the new partner to feel included. And we want family dinners to feel natural. We want the new Christmas photos to look like everybody's always belonged together. But children may be carrying feelings that adults don't see. A child can genuinely like a stepparent, but still wish their parents were together. They can enjoy time in the new house and then feel guilty when they return to their other parent. And they can love a new sibling, but also resent. What that sibling represents. They can be affectionate one weekend, distant the next weekend. Loyalty is complicated. And kids often experience changes in family identity long after the adults believe that they're adjusted. And sometimes a new partner can experience that as rejection. They think I've done something wrong. Have I done something right? Why are they keeping me at a distance? Perhaps because belonging can't be demanded. It has to become safe, and that takes time. And there's also this really strange experience of dating somebody who's completely different when they're parenting. And I think that catches people by surprise too. And so that's what I want to talk about today. Because dating with stepchildren and becoming a step parent are often described as though they're simply the next chapter after separation. When in reality, they can be some of the most emotionally complex relationships we ever build. There can be enormous love in them. There can be extraordinary chances. There can be children who gain another adult who loves them, and parents who find relationships that are healthier than the ones they left, siblings who would never otherwise have existed, and family structures that become bigger and warmer and richer than anybody imagined. But getting there requires far more than simply loving the person. It requires boundaries and patience and security and a willingness to tolerate discomfort. And a willingness to let children move slowly. And perhaps more than anything, the capacity to acknowledge feelings like jealousy and fear and insecurity and resentment before they begin running the relationship from underneath it. And that's the conversation that I'm having today with Chris Burns, a step-parent coach who works with people navigating exactly these questions. The emotional reality of step-parenting, blended families, ex-partners, boundaries, relationships. And all of the difficult feelings that come with loving somebody whose life and family began long before you entered it. All right, Chris. Thank you for joining me today on Before Breaks. The tables have turned this time. And I was so surprised by the DMs I've been getting and the interest on you coming on here. So thank you so much for having me. I'm so rapt to be sitting down with you again and just being in your energy. We had such a great conversation on my podcast. So I know we'll have another fantastic convo again now. So for those that don't know me, I'm Chris. I am a stepmum of 10 years, and I'm also a mum to two of my own little ones. I have practiced neurolinguistic programming for about seven years now. I have had a podcast and previous business in coaching and last year I made the dramatic flip to go into a niche that felt very scary and terrifying, but something that I'm deeply passionate about, you know, bringing awareness to and bringing support to, which was step parenting. I believe that step moms are in a role that no one trained them for and blended families are one of the hardest, most difficult seasons to navigate for any family that's goes through all of the different transitions and all of the different, I suppose, journeys that each individual person in the family goes through and then your own journey in addition to that. So knowing that there's minimal support out there and minimal conversations around it, I, you know, just ke it kept getting brought to me, to my attention and the conversations kept coming to my DMs naturally and organically when p some some was like, your stepmom, I am too. Can I ask you this? And You know, it was so organic the way that it came about. And I ended up just sitting down and going, you know what? I think, I think I'm gonna close the doors on my other business and my other podcast, which seems so scary because I'd had them both for so long and I worked so hard to get them to where they were. And then I just went, No, let's do it. Let's see what happens here. And this has just been the most phenomenal journey over the last 12 months, just getting the business to what it is, to working with so many families. I don't just work with women one-on-one coaching. I work with men, couples. And just allowing them to finally feel the feel free, find their voices again, find their power, feel empowered in making decisions as they navigate a really hard season and find themselves again. I think a lot of men and women lose themselves when they navigate separation, divorce, blended families, step parenting, you know, it all sort of correlates together. And yeah, my passion is supporting them and men and women to feel good in that in that realm. It's needed. And I think there's not enough support out there because it is still a bit niche and it's something that you don't necessarily want to talk about maybe or admit to people how much you are struggling and how difficult it is and as you know I've been through it, I get it. And I almost thought that being in a relations like a relationship when I first got married would be harder or easier. I don't know, but this is so much harder and navigating all the complexities that do come with repartnering and kids and, you know, exes. So good on you because I think people really knew do need the space that you're working with. Thank you. It's a it For me, there were times where it felt incredibly lonely. I didn't have any I was twenty four when I became a stepmom. I was a baby. Yeah. And I think now at the time I didn't feel that young and I didn't feel like it was that big of a deal, but I was alone and a lo isolated for a lot of the things that I was experiencing and and feeling. There was no one to validate what I felt. That was just, you know, me, myself and I sort of going through it. And I had my beautiful partner who is now my husband, of course, but at that time he was my boyfriend who, you know, came with two beautiful little girls who I was blessed to have as as my stepdaughters and still do. do you think you had any idea then of what you were getting yourself into. my god, no. No way. No way in hell. I had no idea. I was just like, yeah, I like kids. Like, that's cool. Like you know I also was a child of divorce. So I had had some really difficult step parents through my experiences. So my only intention was to be everything that they weren't were not to me. Right. So I had this rule of thumb and I suppose throughout that time though too, I was navigating being a stepmom, but I was also trying to prove that I wasn't like my stepparents. So I was overgiving and overcompensating, over-delivering in every possible capacity. It was like a badge of honor. Like I'm the best stepmom in the world. We go to three parks a day. We do this, we do that. Something that I've said on my podcast before, but it was something that I I wore proudly. Like I do a great job at this thing. and I will be nothing like the men and women that were in the role of stepparent for me. but it did burn me out and that and and I was just gonna say, Did you feel burned out? I did, I burned out and I felt resentful and I felt alone and no one got it. No one understood. What was the flip, maybe, or the switch then? Because you know, that period of burnout, don't you kind of say, I'm walking away, this is all too hard, I'm so young, it's too much responsibility. Yeah, I think I'd had feelings of it's too much, but there was never feelings of walking away. For me, I was very committed, and I think that just shows my my character of loyalty. I've always been fiercely loyal in that way. It's like once I say I'm gonna do something. We're we're seeing it through to the end kind of thing. Nothing can stop that. And that's the the, I suppose, the the mantra that it was at that time. And leaving wasn't an option for me. But I know for a lot of people it is. And that is the thought that plays out. But I did have that heightened level of I must I have so much responsibility. I'm doing so much. Why is it me? Why am I the only one that cares this deeply? But then I had to learn, it wasn't that I was the one that was caring the most. It was that I wanted to be perceived in a certain way the most. And that's a pretty hard pill to swallow when you hold that mirror up and you're like, no, this is about me. This isn't actually a reflection of how deeply I care and love kids. This is about me wanting to be liked. Yeah. And once I held that up, I was like, okay, it's time to set some boundaries, to pull back a little bit in a healthy way. Nothing that the girls would not even would not be able to tell you I pulled back in any degree, right? But for me. It was, okay, maybe I'm gonna start saying no more. Maybe I'm gonna start putting myself first. Yeah, yeah. Yeah, I feel that. I think it really is about the boundaries and what rules you do have in the home. So that's what we're gonna get into today. But what do you think? I mean, you start dating someone with kids, it's something new, but you're falling in love with this person and maybe you don't know the kids yet or you're starting to get to know them. What do you think people underestimate about dating someone with kids and entering into that sort of relationship? I think they underestimate that the kids need to come first. And I say that with Two edges to that sword, right? So yes, the kid you go into a relationship dating someone with children, do not underestimate that those children must be a priority in every single decision that you and your partner make. And you need to remove yourself from being the priority straight off the bat. later, when the relationship has blossomed, when you have connection, when you're living in a home together, when you're maybe married, when there's another child involved, later you get to prioritize your relationship and prioritize your marriage and have, you know. moments where you might go away for a week and you don't take the kids and things like that. Like, of course, those things matter and those things are absolutely necessary. But when you w your question being around when you start dating, I believe do not underestimate those kids must come first, no matter what scenario is playing out. You know, you need to step aside a little bit because this is a new world for them. This is a whole new season for them and they will get to know you in their own time, but it's not about you. Right. And a lot I think a lot of step parents or Men or women coming into new relationships where there's kids involved, really make it about them and wanting to be liked and wanting it to be an automatic, blended family and happy home. It's not going to be that straight away. You need to be patient and you need to let them sort of come to you and connect with you. So it's not just about the kids though, I think, because you're entering this family dynamic where there's this whole history and there are traditions and there's an X and there's a way of doing things. How does someone enter into that kind of relationship knowing all of that and what do they do from the start? I think you must have the ability and the emotional intelligence. Go and do some work on yourself, baby. If you haven't already, it's really important that you are working on yourself. But I think having emotional intelligence, A, that that's a perfect world. But B, it's having an awareness, having an awareness to your flexibility, your own behaviors and your own patterns, your own projections playing into the relationship and what you might be expecting. There's something that we call a covert contract, right? And a covert contract is an unconscious expectation that you put on someone who So just remember, you can't, no one can meet your expectations if you're not communicating them, right? You need to be very clear, crystal clear in what you want and what you expect. And if you're not doing that, then walk into that relationship with your non negotiables. What's most important to you? What do you value the most in a relationship? If that person can't meet them, give them the chance to say that they can't. Give them the option. Don't just wait for them to show up and do what you think that they should be doing. This is new for them too. I think be really intentional with your time, time together when it's just you two. knowing that that can flip at any any given moment. You know, kids get sick, co-parents need a weekend off. There's things that change, sports get cancelled, this happens, that happens. It's like, you know, don't be disappointed when something gets canceled because a child's with a priority. That's going to happen. Have an expectation of that. and yeah, and I think just be really intentional with how you show up into your relationship and into into your communication. Yeah. Do you think little rituals that people should be putting in place early on from that outset? I mean, before those feelings start coming in, the resentment, feeling guilty, jealousy. Because I think, and at least with a lot of the parents I work with, and I'm sure you too, you don't want to admit those feelings. You don't want to say, Hey, I'm feeling really jealous of the relationship maybe you have with your ex right now or your kids or whatever it might be. Or I'm feeling guilty, you know. So what do you do from the beginning to set you know, up those rituals where you are protecting the new relationship and you're still dating this person and getting to know them without letting those emotions, I guess, take over. Yeah, I think one of the coolest things that I've seen clients do is actually have that open table conversation. What's what I call an open table combo, where it's like there's nothing off limits and you be as open as you need to be in order to have some vulnerability and some honest deep. And it is it's early in the relationship, right? A lot of people, if there's no kids involved, you're not going this deep this early, right? Generalization there, but most won't. But because there are kids, you need to be aware. No, you don't get to shy away from what you want. You don't get to avoid the truth. You get to come in and you get to be really open and honest and you get to receive that as well from someone else as a partner. And I think that's a beautiful thing and something that a lot of relationships don't get to do until years later. So it is quite fast-tracked. so having that open table strategy from the get it's like, hey, let's put everything on the table here and let's unpack that together. And we can't leave the table until we've unpacked it, right? I think there's, you know, little tools like that that can be handy. but again, communication, it's everything. If you are in a high conflict co-parenting scenario, one of the best things for my clients is three minute timer. You get three minutes each event, talk about the person and then you're done. You do not get to speak about them in that 24-hour period again. Yeah. You do not have permission from each other. Right? That means no talking to friends, no talking to your mom, no no ringing anyone about it. You hold space for each other for three minutes, get it off your chest, something dramatic's happened, something chaotic, family court, whatever is going on, get it off your chest and then turn turn the f timer off. It's done. Because it can become toxic, can't it? Because you're obsessing over this person in your mind. And sometimes it might just be a text that comes through and you're making it so much bigger. Yes. And then then, as you say, it spirals. Ten hours, twenty-four hours, forty-eight hours, and we're still talking about this person. Yes. And it's not just to your partner, it's you've had the convo with your partner. You you you know, let's say hypothetically, you get out of family court. You have the conversation with your partner, then your mom calls to check in, then your best friend calls, your sister, your sister-in-law, your brother-in-law. Suddenly you've spent six hours replaying the same thing, reinforcing the same toxic language and toxic patterns of everything you've just been through. And by the end of the night, you wonder why you're resentful. And you wonder why you're mad and you don't want to go to bed next to your partner and you're cracking with the It probably had nothing actually to do with them. And they weren't to blame, but you've created this whole. scene in your head, you know? For sure. And you're so angry at that ex partner as well too, where you've got all these fresh emotions and that you're just projecting it onto the house and that energy is toxic and it's not a way to live. Particularly in front of the kids. I mean, that's the hardest part because it's still their other parent. And even if it is a high conflict dynamic, we forget that we're now in this person's house with these kids and we do need to have that chat. But it's hey, it's still mum or dad. So As nice as we can be, we have to be about that person in front of them. And even you know, parents that aren't unpacking and fr around the kids and the kids don't know what's going on. It's an energy that they feel and absorb. It's your energy, right? If you're snappy, if you're having a bottle of wine, you know, sitting down with a bottle of wine with your partner and be I don't want to talk right now, we need art all the time and they're like, What? We we haven't seen you for ages. Like, what do mean? Yeah. So being really hyper aware, I think, is so important of your behaviour and and what you choose how you choose to show up in the home as well. I always say kids learn from what they see. So they do see that shrug or that eye roll. And it might just be that they're trying to tell you what a nice time they had at mum's or dad's. But that's setting you off and you're getting so angry about it because you d dislike this person you probably don't even know very well. And they see it in your face and then they stop wanting to tell you how good their time was at the other parents or what they set up to. A hundred percent. And and you know, it it becomes e emotionally abusive. It does. And women and men can can say, No, I'd never abuse my child I'd never do that. Well, you are. When you're weaponizing your child's, you know, ability to tell you the truth and be honest with you and feel emotionally safe with you and you're using what their good experiences are as negative experiences because they might hurt your feelings and you might not like it, that is weaponizing your child is abusing a child and it's not healthy. it's not good for their growth, development. It's not good for them to know that, okay, so I can't mention certain things and you're not a safe adult to me. As their parent, your role is to be the safest adult in the room, but you're teaching them that you're not safe. It's true and it's so important and we forget that and we are supposed to be the mature adults and we should know these things, but we don't because dating and relationships and parenting is really hard. But how normal is jealousy around an ex, even when you know there's maybe nothing romantic left between them? d I think there's jealousy, yes, a hundred percent that can be playing out, but it's also a comparison because you're stepping into a role that someone was already in, let's say, and then you're coming into traditions, you're coming into family dynamics, you're coming into bedrooms might be set up, there's favorite colours, favorite books. Favorite movies, things that you don't know, things that you don't really connect with as well, you might not connect with, I should say. you know, especially if it's that the child is the opposite gender to you and you you haven't been around kids before. You know, there is so much in that. But specifically jealousy, yeah, jealousy can exist and it's kind of normal. It's actually super normal, I think, for you to feel envious of something that you didn't get to experience. And I think that a lot of stepmoms would say, you know, it sucked. I loved that my husband, I'll I'll say from my own experience, I loved that my husband knew so many things about parenting, like you know, do you what to buy, what not to buy when I was pregnant, when we had our baby, like he was so nonchalant with so many things. I'm like, What do you mean? Is he gonna be okay? He's It's cool, he's like he's fine, he's a baby, like or he'd wrap him up, you know, the wraps. He would wrap him so tight. I'm like, he's not won't be able breathe. Yeah. And he goes, No, they love it. Like it soothed him straight away. And so he was just phenomenal in so many little micro things that I didn't know because I'd never done the first time, like the newborn thing, right? Interesting. So I loved it, but I also really, really hated that I didn't get that part, that learning with him. Experience. Too I I felt sad about that. Mm about the first. But there is and I think a lot of women would feel the same. So yeah, you can have jealousy, let's call it. It's really a reflection of your ego and just, you know, wanting wanting the the perfect world, I suppose. And really just coming back to ooh What's most important to you? And can you be flexible with that? Yeah, it's hard because I think any relationship you enter into, you wonder about the ex girlfriends or the ex partners. You're always going to, but majority of the time they're not there anymore and they don't have to be. But the reality is when someone has kids, that person's always gonna be around. Yes. Between school events as you would know and parties and they're gonna text and they're gonna communicate. How do you deal with that? I mean what happens when a new partner comes along and they're saying no, I want no communication. But yeah, that's not possible. No, it's not possible. But I think there is, you know, as you would know, p there's parallel parenting and co-parenting. And a lot of people choose to parallel parent, which is I think a really healthy way of co-parenting. You know there's a reason a lot of couples aren't together. They don't like each other anymore. So why have a why entertain this this big healthy, friendly when I say healthy I mean like what sure what society deems healthy, this super friendly co-parenting relationship where everyone's involved in and meshed in each other's lives. I don't think it's that healthy. I think it can be really unhealthy and toxic when it's that way because it's all fake. It's all for performance. You don't actually like each other. And, you know, your kids are learning to perform around their parents. And I just don't think that's right. Whereas parallel parenting with you, you know, it's limited access in terms of the co-parents. It's child focused. It's speaking what about what the children need, mentally, emotionally, physically, spiritually, and that is that. And there is no need to inquire about each other's lives or be around each other longer than what's needed. And I think that's great. I do think that is co parenting too, in the sense that I agree, you don't have to sit down and be best friends. You don't have to go to dinners together. I mean, we don't do Christmas, birthdays, any of that. but I do think there's a difference between, hey, how's my kid going? I'm gonna call them today. I might update you about school. But yes, you do not need to know what's going on in their personal life. And I mean, at the end of the day, that relationship's done. A hundred percent. so I think that, you know, just ha if if there are co parents, if you come into a relationship where they're maybe maybe they're talking every day and they're still sending photos and things like that and it's You know, a what you're coming in as the new partner and you're like, my gosh, this feels pretty unhealthy. I'm not really down with this. I don't talk to my ex every day. You want me to, you know, give them a call every day? That this feels weird. Setting those boundaries might feel really unfamiliar to say the biological mother, if you're the woman coming into the picture, that might feel unfamiliar and uncomfortable from her because she's like, before she came along, we talked all the time and sent photos back and forth. Yeah, that was lovely. But when you have a partner as well, your partner's probably not gonna be into that either. So it's just setting some boundaries and establishing some healthy healthy tools and strategies to have as co-parents because once you both repartner, your focus is on your relationship, not each other, and that's how it should be. and keeping the co-parenting around the kids. It's simply child focused. It's the right thing for the children as well to thrive. Yeah, I I I don't disagree with that. But how do I guess do you distinguish between something that's an insecurity of the new partner and a boundary that's actually needed? And insecurity will come out in a leaky way. It will come out in a tantrum. It will come out in you know, saying something underlining. It will come out in slamming a door, rolling the eyes, right? It comes out leaky. Whereas if you've got someone that sits down and says, Hey, I've noticed how often you guys speak. And I can totally appreciate that this is about the kids and, you know, you want to catch up on each other's days and stuff like that. But often it ends up being about you. You're like, well, what's going on with you personally? And I'm not really comfortable with that. I'd love for you to set some boundaries around, you know, time to talk to your children or You know, when they can call, like the I've got a client right now who's really struggling with the mum to the and the client is a a stepmum and the mum is calling twice a day, every day, morning and afternoon on FaceTime. And this child is seven and they're walking around the house with their mum on FaceTime and she's, you know, she's in the kitchen. She's like, I just I don't wanna have this exchange and I also don't wanna feel like I have to hide in my own home. What can I do about that? And it's setting some boundaries, having some conversations. Don't wait until you blow your lid. Right? Just have those conversations with your partner and with your stepchild. I find this conversation so interesting and it's a hard one for me to have because I'm not stepmum. No in fairness. I deal with step mums and obviously my son has a stepdad, he also has a stepmum and that's been very challenging dynamic. But then I think, you know, for example, I love the twice a day FaceTime. But I agree you do need that boundary of it can't just be whenever and no, don't walk around the house freely. And I I've seen at my own house of yeah, we don't want him walking around showing dad the whole house and the intimate parts of our life. But I also see how special it is for him. So I do, I personally struggle with the idea of what's a boundary, what's good for my son, as you say, what's good for me, but does he really need it? Yeah. What would you say three of the most important boundaries are if someone was listening? Okay, three of the most important boundaries. Okay, great. Let me think about that. so three of the most important boundaries are going to be around your your time, what happens on your time, what that looks like, what that feels like. It doesn't need to be like you know, if you've got a stepchild fifty percent of the time or your own child fifty percent of the time, do you want to be walking on eggshells in your home? Do you want to be hiding in a room because they're on the phone to the co-parent? But also what you allow, they also allow for you, right? So if you're allowing their dad dad to call twice a day, because you're like, I do that. I want to be able to do that. Cool. So what are you willing to sacrifice within that? What are you willing to go, okay, maybe I don't need that ph the double phone call, you know, morning and afternoon, because that bothers me so much. And I'm sure it's bothering them, right? And having that compromise internally with yourself. So setting that tone, setting that boundary within yourself. What do I actually want in my own home? How do I want that to look and feel? I think having conversations, vulnerable conversations with your partner is non-negotiable. Whilst children come first, that's never, never not the case. Your relationship needs to be a priority. Be open with your communication with each other. Be true to your conversations with each other. do again, covert contract. Do not place a covert contract in this relationship, speak. Up. That is a clear boundary and a clear intention in the relationship. and also co I think having boundaries with that co-parent, you don't need to tolerate anything. And what you tolerate will continue. It is on you. You are responsible for what you allow in your home. That is on you. So have the boundaries, have that front door closed. Because if you're cracking that door a little bit and they're coming in and they're, you know, being too much or they're being toxic or, you know, they're spending too much time on the phone or they're abusing then we go into heart conflict matters where it could be. abusing someone over the phone or hearing something in the background that mom will step stepmom's doing and be like, well, what did what does she think she's doing? She doesn't get to tell you to do. And then there's conflict. What you allow will continue. So you do not have to entertain having that person in your home. And I think being really strong on close that front door if you need to, lock it with a key if you need to and open it when needed. Okay. there's things you can put in place to protect your peace. Be really mindful of how what you're allowing and how much it's disrupting your your rhythm in your home. Yeah, and look I think that takes time as well. When you're early and it's a new relationship, that might take a bit longer to form those boundaries. And then as it becomes a very solid relationship, and I think particularly when you start living together, that's when those solid boundaries really do need to take place and start. Absolutely. How much responsibility would you say a biological parent needs to take in terms of setting up these boundaries and also creating security for their new partner? Because you always see that phrase, you know, but you knew I had kids, you knew what I was getting or you were getting yourself into. So yeah, how much does come down to the biological parent? it's absolutely a responsibility. Like if you're not doing those things for the new partner and allowing also giving them authority, what also how much authority do you want them to have? How much leadership do you want to give them? Don't expect them to lead, but then punish them when they when they lead too hard. Or they raise their voice for the first time to your child and you're just like, whoa, no, not your place, and you shut them down completely. Yeah. Be really radically responsible for how you what you choose to allow them to sorry, what space you allow for them to take up in your life and your home and with your child. and I think, yeah, they do know what they're getting themselves into in terms of there's a bonus child, there's a kid involved, but it's on you to lead that, right? They don't know what they're doing. They're in a role no one's not really know they're getting. They there's kids. They've got no idea. They they're gonna look after them. But that whole idea you were just saying about authority and discipline, w when do you have that conversation? When is too early, when is too late? Is there a idea? I think that there's any opportunity where that where that adult is responsible for your child. So let's just say they start having sleepovers, but you go to a gym class on a Sunday morning, they've slept over and you're like, I can leave my son I've got a partner now, I can leave my son with a you or or daughter with a partner and you're leaving them for an hour, we they need to know what they can and can't do. Or they're gonna overcompensate, they're gonna overgive, they're just gonna say yes to everything. You're gonna come home and your kid's gonna be sh you know, sugar brained off their head, running around, you're like, my god, what you done? They won't know because they're just trying to please the child, they're just saying yes to everything because they didn't know they could say no. So have those conversations with your partner and be really intentional around that. And I think it comes as early as as soon as they're in any responsibility for the child. if they're not, if they're one part removed and it stays that way for many years, that's fine. That's like each to their own. But just be really honest about, okay, things are gonna change. This is what that's gonna look like. But if they're not having much to do with the kids or you've got teenagers and they don't need much of you again as well, or they're young adults and it's like, no, we only catch up twice a year. Like there's very so many different layers. But I think with little kids involved, as soon as that new partner is responsible for them, it's it's time to have that conversation. Yeah. And I think it's also, I mean, I'm sure you're of the same view, it's the two adults. Being able to have those conversations and set those rules early on but separate to the kids. So I always hate when I hear the stories where, you know, I went and disciplined a child and then my partner got angry and it was in front of the child. 'Cause you're straight away undermining that new relationship and their authority. And then how do you rebuild from that? A hundred percent something my husband and I really pride ourselves on is even if we disagree with the other parent, we we're like, Yep, that dad's right, but exactly we will act that way and then I'll be like, You should not have said that to her. You can't talk to her like like he'll be like, why did you do that? That's not what we talked about. And I'll be like, sorry. So we were speaking earlier, and you do always hear the phrase, you know, kids come first, children come first. But do you think that can be damaging to a relationship a relationship to particularly a new one? Because then I almost feel like the couple gets the leftover time and the leftover part of the relationship when the focus is solely on the kids? I think if you're getting the leftover time that that's a choice. And you're choosing not to be intentional with the time that you have and not being actual actually like really purposeful with intention around okay, pl with planning, with logistics. We have the kids on these days. Yeah, things can go wrong and things can change last minute for sure. But if you, let's say, have every second weekend off, for what purpose are you not choosing to, you know, book in a gym session together at the minimum, go for a walk, go to a cafe together? Get quality time together, prioritize yourselves. If you're not if you're you know, for me when you said that, I was like, that's just being lazy. I think people are being lazy, they're not prioritizing each other. Yeah. Because there is time, there's always time. You make time for what's important. There was a window there of opportunity where my husband and I, I think it was when my son was a newborn and I had the we had the two girls, but we were finding he was travelling a little bit for work. I can't remember what it was specifically, but we were finding we would get up at four and have a coffee together. Yes. Right? And it sounds ridiculous. And we knew that it was like so early and so silly, but I would train at five. So I was getting up at four. He was training at nighttime. We'd have dinner and we had sports and all the things and we weren't speaking to each other really until, you know, we were going to bed. But then I'm shattered. I'm like passed out of sleep. And he's like, I we don't get any time together. So I was like, Can you get up with me in the mornings? Let's have that hour of power together where we can have a coffee, sit down, what you know, watch the sun come up, do all the things and have that convo. It really allowed us to connect back to each other and we don't do that specific thing anymore, but we are very intentional with choosing to show up for each other. Because if you're not, you're just being lazy. Of course, there's time. I agree. I agree in any kind of relationship, even without the kids as well. I think it got to be hard when the kids are around too, because you often deal, particularly with parents who have children from a prior relationship, with that guilt of separation. Yeah. And that guilt of what they're exposing their kids to. It's can we hold hands? Can we be affectionate to one another. Can I say, Hey kids, you watch a movie, we're gonna sit here and have our takeaway or have our glass of wine. Do you deal with couples, in particular one adult who, yeah, is struggling with that guilt of the separation and and what they're showing their kids? Yeah, I think definitely. And I think the the men and women that I've worked with that do hold that guilt also start parenting from guilt, which can be a bit of a, you know, challenging season for them when they start operating in that way because parenting guilt led parenting is just it is toxic. It is leaky. It is projecting your pain onto children and you might be again overcompensating for certain things and feeling really guilty around other things or, you know, I think it impacts the home dynamic in a really dramatic way. And if there is guilt or shame operating in your relationship and then projecting into the children and the projecting into the parenting experience, I think that people need to be really intentional with what with their responsibility of that and and how are they choosing to to impact their family. Because that's an energy in the home too that impacts things in a dramatic way. Yeah, that and look, that makes sense. But do you think there is a time when look, I don't know, it's a new relationship, when do you, you know, show affection in front of your children or make not that you're making your new partner the priority, but I think you do at some point. You need to say, Hey, I love this person, we're together, we're sitting down on the couch, we will lie down on the couch together, you guys lie on your little floor mats. When when do you think is the right time for all of that? I think for the first time for a lot of people, and this is a big generalization for anyone listening. I think your relationship off the back of a divorce or separation is the first opportunity those kids will have to see what a healthy relationship looks like, to see and witness and have evidence of two adults loving on each other, what healthy affection looks like, what compassion, generosity, you know, kindness, and what real love gets to look like in in a home of us, even if it is a step parent and a parent. It's a mum and a dad, right? In that in that formation of the the experience of the fla family. And I think if it that's their first window of opportunity, you do it exactly as you want to. You show them what love looks like. You love each other hard and fiercely and be protective of each other. And if you ever choose to disagree in front of the kids or they witness anything or they question why you know, are you guys fighting? It is your responsibility to repair in front of them. It is a big part of it. It is something we are really proud to say that we have always done. It is always, I'm sorry I spoke to you that way in front of and we say it in front of the kids and we hug and make up. Even if we've done it privately, we'll come out for a second performance, just to make sure that they witness that and they see that you can repair after something, you know, having a disagreement or after saying things you don't mean. because their only evidence prior to that is that when you're mean to each other or when you don't like each other anymore, you end. Yeah. And for that trauma response to come up in children in your home, I think that's one of the biggest pieces as well in in the step parent and parent exp relationship. And I love that. But it's true, it's almost harder. 'Cause a lot of the work I do, obviously, my role as a family lawyer and I hear it all the time is kids get so scared of they've heard so much thrown around at home, you know, I want to divorce you, we're ending it, I'm leaving you, leo leave, divorce, all of that. And then they see their parents enter into this new relationship. And I hope they do. They see the love and the affection because they do need you know, role models in front of them that show them what a beautiful family looks like. And that's important for their futures. But I think they're gonna have that never-ending scared feeling or that panic of, no, I've just seen dad, mom, whoever, and step parent have this fight. Is that person leaving? Am I losing another parent again? Is my family breaking? That's a lot of pressure. Yeah. Do we have to move again? Like there's so much in that for sure for kids. So yeah, I think if you're living together or you're dating and you want to lay on the lounge with your partner, lay on the lounge with your partner. partner, give them a cuddle, ask the kids to jump up if they're comfortable. If they're not, cool. You don't need to put pressure on it, but you can always open the invitation. Hey, do you want to sit with dad and I? Like or mum and I, or what does that look like for you? as I think just being honest about where you're at and showing the kids that that's okay. Yeah. And do you think that when there is a new adult in the home and and there is conflict, which there inevitably will be, because I don't believe in any relationship, there's zero conflict and repair is great and I think that's important in front of the children. But do you think kids start to feel ever an element of blame, like because we already in this, you know, family and there will be arguments about kids. It's hard. Do you think they start taking on some of that blame and guilt? Sure they can, definitely. And they feel responsible for that too. And it's different. Kids have different e emotional bandwidths and energies and and self awareness and maturity as well. You know, one child can be off with the fairies and not even notice there was an argument and the other one's just like, my gosh, we're moving out. What could what do I toys do I get to take? So it's kids experience and hold. you know, different energy in the home as well. but I think that the your responsibility as a either parent or step parent is to have an awareness that you're the adult and you have to be the one that's one one step ahead of this for the children. Notice it. If you see a kid that maybe notice the disagreement, talk to them, have a conversation with them. Hey, I love you. I'm not going anywhere. We're good. We just don't you know how you and your sibling don't get agree with everything and you sometimes fight? Sometimes that's us too. I like We love each other. And we're we're allowed to have little tiffs here and there. We're allowed to say things we don't mean, just like you guys, because we're humans and it's our first time on earth too. Like having that vulnerable conversation with a child can be really healthy for them to actually have that awareness of like, okay, I can be safe I in my home even when the parents are disagreeing. It's not a fight, it's a disagreement, I have often said in my experience. 'Cause you're being honest with them, but you're getting down on their level too. What do you do though? And I know you will hear this all the time when you start getting there, you know. But you're not my mum, but you're not my dad. How dare you, you know, do this, stop me from doing this. what are you doing in my home? So for me, and I can't tell you I actually I don't know if this is right or wrong, I'll be honest about that. But for my experience, when I ever have received that, I've gone, yeah, no, I know. I'm definitely not mom. I'm your stepmom. And I say it like that, like I like. no, no, no, I'm not mom. I'm your stepmom. And this is my home. And this and we don't hurt each other, like, you if they're hitting each other or doing the wrong thing or whatever it was. You know, in my home, we don't operate this way. In my family, we don't do things this way. And no, no, I'm not your mum, but I am your stepmum. And I'm and I've always made that really clear. This has not been said for many, many years, mind you. My I don't think my stepdaughters would would want to say that to me. They'd be like, my gosh, that's cruel because I do so much. I'm so invented. And I'm 10 years in now, it's a bit different. But if you're, you know, even if it's just, you know, you're not stepmom yet, but your dad's partner, your dad's girlfriend, or your mum's boyfriend, the the terminology gets to be, yeah, I know, but I'm dating your dad and it's really important to me. that when I'm responsible for you guys that you don't hurt each other because that would really hurt dad's feelings to know that you guys don't love love on each other when he's not here. But also I don't want to see that. I don't want to be around that. Like talk to them. When so when a child's going, Yeah, but you're not my mum, no you're not. Mm-hmm. Like, why are you defending that? Why do you feel the need to protect that? Because you're not their mom. Don't you think it's that anger that it's that fight back of, well, I don't want to be anyway, and then that creates such bigger problems. For sure. And it's if you start with that, if you're like, no, why would I want to be your parent anyway? That's so hurtful for a child. They're testing you. Don't forget, they are fully testing how much space you will hold to them and how much pain they can give you before you walk away. There's a lot of kids that will test you, I was that stepchild and I did it very well. My stepfather now, who is still with my mother, who I love dearly, he met my mum and it wasn't a very good time in either of my mum or my life. I was sixteen, and the first thing he said to me was, I'm gonna marry your mum one day. He they'd just met. And I said, my fucking dead body. Right? And he loves to bring it up at any given point. But I was so sure that he was not coming into our world. He was not permitted, he was not allowed, and I Did some crazy annoying things as a teenager to get rid of him, but he stuck it out, right? I tested him. I tested him again and again and again. These kids are gonna test you. Have you learnt from that? yes. Of course, yeah, yeah. I I did. Would I have done it differently? No. I don't think that I would because he did come in too too hard and too strong. And think he's learnt from that. It's like, I probably didn't need to say those words to first meeting a teenage girl. And that was your journey too. For sure. And I needed him not to be that full on from the start. Like he wanted This happy family. He wanted to be in our lives and have, you know, move in together and do this. And I'm like, whoa, whoa, whoa, do. Like, calm down. so that's probably his lesson more than my own. But yeah, I think that for for any step parents that might be listening that are just feeling like they can't have those conversations now with the kids. Like let's say a child is like, you know, you're not my real parent, you're not my mom. No, you're not. So don't try and defend that, but tell them what you are. Yeah. Remind them what you are to them. Remind them how loved they are. Remind them that no matter what they throw at you, you're not going anywhere. And it's okay to be angry and not agree with the different rules that you might have in your home, but it's not up to them to to be, you know, being mean. It's okay to be angry, it's not okay to be mean. That's nice. I I do really like that. I think that's helpful. I think too with a lot of kids is they do genuinely love or want to love this new parent or this step parent or girlfriend, boyfriend, whoever it might be. But I think children deep down probably do wish their parents would get back together and life would go back to normal. Two things, I guess. How do you think you cope with that as the person entering that family? But also, how do you make a child feel safe enough to know it's okay to experience these different feelings? You're not hurting my feelings. You wish your parents were back together, but this is our new family. So let's start building on this new family and still love your other parent. So I think that through through the lens of the step herd or the parrot, it's like, you know, have really it really encourage a healthy relationship, no matter what you think, feel, or believe about the other parent, be protective of the child's relationship with the other parent. Even if hypothetically you think that person is lazy, you think that person is inconsiderate, that person is selfish, that person has caused you hell, they are manipulative, they are narcissistic. If you have all this hobby picture of what they are to you, right, you do not have a right to change the child's perception of that parent. Let them think that that parent's a hero. Let them think that parent's the hardest worker in the room. Let that child think and feel what they need to think and feel in order to have a healthy relationship with their parent. They will work out in their own time. You have to be sure about protecting that, I think is really important. and as for the child, if even when a child might vent to you about their parent, like their biological parent, mom or dad, if they start venting to you as a step parent, it's not on you to start venting back. Yeah. You do not have a right to do that. Protect. The relationship that child has with their parent. Encourage healthy communication. Say, hey, you know, I'm really sorry to hear that that, you know, that's what happened. Have you thought about talking to Mum or have you thought about talking to Dad about that? Be the thing that you would want the other parent to do, even if they wouldn't, do that anyway, right? Show up as that anyway. I think that's so important because otherwise it becomes let's just say, let's say you've got a teenage art. stepchild and they come to you bitching about their biological parent and you're like, finally we got to talk about it. We think we can be best friends now or we can talk about Yeah, this is my this is my time to shine, right? I've got so much I want to share. You are damaging your relationship more than you're creating a healthy space. You're showing them what that that they have permission to speak about you that way as well when they choose to. And in three or four months when they've, you know, rekindled and they made up with their parent, they're gonna remember the things you said and they're gonna resent you for it. And then you've damaged that relationship. That doesn't Do you think maybe we put way too much pressure on step parents and maybe way too early that they need to fall in love and love these new children and and be this role model to them when realistically it takes time? Yeah, I think d definitely we do. And I think that the biological parent who is dating, you know, the potential step parent has to have some clear boundaries and some awareness to that. You know, don't expect just because you're living together that that she or he's gonna want to have the kids while you go do whatever you wanna do. You need to Have those conversations. you know, if you've got a boys' night out and you think that she's gonna have the kids overnight, check in. Have that ask that question, how are you comfortable with that? Yeah. Because she might not be ready for that. Yeah. In my experience, I was fine. I'm good the go live your life. I'm cool with the kids. I loved being with them. I was a very nurturing maternal human being prior to having stepchildren of my own. I was always like this. But for a lot of women, they're like, Whoa, I don't know. Like that if you're going out, I can have a Sunday night off. Like they should be with their mum or they should be with their dad. And not quite often the biological parent is like, I don't want them left with that person. I w if you can't have them, I will. So there's a lot of conversations that I think need to happen between the two co-parents and the step parent, potential step parent and the biological parent and just being really open with it, right, through the whole process because things will continue to grow and change and transitions will happen. And you just need to be open around communication. It's a complicated dynamic. I mean, my sister has three stepkids and I think I told you when we met. She's the one that put me on to you. She's a very big fan. Have you watched these reels? I'm learning so much. And she was the same. She was really young. when when she took on took on, I don't know the right language. Yeah, yeah. But you know, when she started this new relationship. And I think as a family, none of us really understood it. I wasn't separated at the time. So it was all still a unfamiliar dynamic. And I would remember the same sort of thing. She'd say, Hey, my husband or the partner at the time, he's going away for a boy's trip for a couple of days, but the kids are gonna be with me. And I would straight away say, Why are the kids with you? I mean, this is your time. We can go and do stuff. We can hang out. They can be with their mom. And she goes, No, no, no. I'm part of this family now and they're just as much my responsibility. And I'm gonna spend time with them. And I and it sounds terrible, but I think from an extended family perspective, that's hard to understand sometimes too when you're not in that dynamic. So I think it does take a lot of support and learning and open communication, even with your own family, to say this is the way we do things. for sure. I think it was like a couple months in in when we started living together and Steve had a trip to China. And for whatever circumstances or reason, Mum was like, well, no, that like it's your week, they'll stay with Chris. And I was like, I was fine with it, but I was also like, okay. I've got the kids for the week. Okay, I got this. I can do this, right? All by myself. Like it felt like a big responsibility, but also I was like, I'm not gonna turn that away. There's no way to move news, I'd like, no, no, you're away. Yeah, I can't possibly. So I did the tennis and I did swimming and I did well, not swimming, sorry, guitar lessons and all the things that needed to be done. I did the school pickups and drop offs and lunch boxes and blah, blah, blah. And, you know, I could have opted out of that, but I chose not to. And I think that women, your sister sounds a lot like me in that regard in terms of she once she committed, she was all in and there was no way around it. And there's are women that are like that and there's women that aren't. Yeah. and I think that being open is just the the pivotal thing in a step parent experience, be an open book with your communication, with your expectations, with what's important to you, with what you want, like be really, really open about it. I think it takes a special person. I don't think everyone can do it. And from my experience, from the people I speak to and trust me, from the DMs I have read over the last week. Yes. It is hard. It is challenging. And I don't think it is suited to every individual. And that's not a bad thing. It's not necessarily a good thing. But I think and as you would know, it takes a lot of growing and learning and you've got to be adaptable. And that brings me, I want to go through a deer, Gabriella, with you, because I put some feelers out early this week, which you may have seen. Amazing. And I got lots and lots of messages, different ones. And I didn't want to go too into that, you know, this X does that and this does that. And this is how I'm struggling, because I think a lot of what we've chatted about has gone through that. There's one I thought, let's go through it. And you may have already answered. And I think you're very big on the boundary. So I feel like I already know what the answer is. Okay, great. But let's do it and give me your thoughts. All right. So this was from one of my followers, and she was very excited when she knew you were coming on. I'll keep it anonymous, but she said, Dear Gabriella, my ex-husband and I share a young son. And until recently, we co-parented pretty well. We weren't friends necessarily, but we would communicate directly just about him and his school and his activities. But he called our son really regularly, I was fine with that. He was really warm. He was engaged at changeover. And our son felt very secure in the relationship with him. But since he started a new relationship, that has changed dramatically. His partner has Children of her own, and she's increasingly jealous of the attention that he gives our son. And she's made it clear that under no circumstances does she want him speaking to me unless absolutely necessary. And I now feel like almost every interaction between us is being filtered through her. But at the same time, his relationship with our son has changed too, and that's why I'm concerned. No calls, less enthusiasm, less involvement. He doesn't even walk in a changeover. I understand that the new relationship needs boundaries. I don't expect the relationship between me and my ex to look like it did before the relationship. But at what point does a boundary become control? Okay, great. This is yeah, there's a few pieces to this that I want to unpack. And first of all, I think that this is really important that you can understand that this relationship, your co-parent relationship has changed to being child focused and you can't control that. That's not for you to to worry about or ch want to change. What you can do is have a really vulnerable open conversation with your ex partner and say, hey, I've noticed that things have shifted in terms of the energy you're bringing to our son. And I'd really love for you to you don't have to call every day, but he was really enjoying those phone calls and talk about why that's affecting the child. Not why that's affecting you, but why that's affecting the child. maybe it could be, you know, bi daily calls where it's every second day, it's in the afternoon at 4 p.m. What does that look and feel like for you? and even including the new stepmum, right? Taking the ego aside, let's remove the ego for a moment. And what if you sent that text to the dad, but you also said, Hey, to the woman, her name and dad, you're sending a message to both of them. I would really like to make sure that, you know, my son and their dad have a really healthy relationship. And obviously I'd would love for them to have a really healthy relationship with their new step siblings and step parent. I would like to ensure that dad and son are having these conversations every second night or whatever that is. But w sending that text n b if you think and I think this is a little bit sneaky of me, but if you think that she's reading every message. Start addressing every message to her and him. Why not? How would that impact you? Take the ego aside of no, no, because it should only be me and him talking. Yes, it should, but it's not. So if you know it's not, don't avoid it. Let's tackle it head on. That's smart. Send a message to both of them together. Do it in a really healthy way that's not cool. Making it about yourself, not making about we used to talk every day and you know, now we're not. No, that that's changed. You that's something that you can't change. No. That has shifted. He has a new partner. His values also may change with her. He what what you both once aligned on will change when he repartners. And it might change when you repartner too. Time will tell. But right now you have to deal with what's in front of you. And it is you have a woman that has boundaries. Maybe she's gone through a lot with an ex herself. She's coming into it. It would sound it does sound insecure and it does seem jealous, but you also don't know why she's behaving that way. You don't have the un the st the backstory as to why she feels so strongly on that. So try not to judge that too harshly because she's coming in and she's do thinks she's doing what's best to protect. Probably her piece and you know, and knowing that maybe having a new woman in the picture might impact the relationship anyway. so she's like, no, we're just gonna set this this tone now and then you know, I don't have to deal with problems later. Maybe she's done that before and things didn't go well. True. but coming back to to this beautiful listener who has submitted this question, you it will make sense. Time will tell, time will heal. It will all make sense eventually. This actually gives you some more freedom. To not have to sort of check in with your ex as well all the time and not have to have that open communication, that line constantly open and available to them. So when you get a new partner and they have some feelings around that, you don't actually have to entertain those feelings because you're, you know, treat people how you want to be treated. Yeah. Do you think though there is ever that line between boundaries and a new way of doing things and almost exercising too much control when it is having then a direct impact, for example, on the kid or children? Yeah, definitely. Definitely. But if it if the child's having a negative impact from these new boundaries, well, you need to talk about it. That is important. It it don't avoid talking about it because it's if it's a only affecting you and the child's thriving and they're cool and you're just making this a thing about when it's coming from your need and your want for control and your want for things to say the same, different conversation. If you've noticed a change in the child's behavior, if you've noticed they're feeling left out or unincluded or they're missing their dad, have that conversation, but have it with the two of adults. Don't just because she's annoying you with the control piece and the jealousy piece, I get it. It's annoying. You don't want to speak to her, you don't want to parent with her. That's not what you signed up for. I totally get that. But how much, you know, what do you actually have to lose by bringing her into the circle of the conversation? Because once she also might you know, maybe if you included her and you were the nicest person in the room, what can she say? What's bad about that? And you might actually become friends. Yeah. And for a lot of people that I'm like, it doesn't sound like this person's gonna become friends. No, I don't think so. I don't think ever. But I do think that there can be a healthy, amicable, co-parent relationship where maybe the new stepmum is involved and maybe she can actually feel seen and and heard. And, you know, if she's a mum too, maybe there's things that she wants to say around it that are important to her and maybe you could hear that out. Yeah, I think that's fair. Open communication. Well, thank you. Thanks for sharing that. Of course. Well, I loved having you on and I think it's such an important conversation. Because we speak so much about relationships generally. You know, in the past I've spoken so much about divorce and co-parenting. But when you start bringing it all together, it is so different and it's so complicated. Yeah, it absolutely is. And I'm so grateful to have come on this show and just shared this message and this work that I do. And hopefully it this helps, you know, just one person is always the intention every time I'm on a podcast. So hopefully it just helps one person and just back on that listener for one moment. That what I just said Will probably be triggering for you and you'll probably be like, I'm angry and I don't want to listen to this and shut up, Chrisa. But I say that with so much love and I say that with holding you to it to your highest standard. And sometimes we do need to hold that mirror up about, you know, what are we making and about ourselves, you know? And can this come back to what are we going to do to move the needle to move forward? And you need to like a lot of what you say, I'm like, I don't do that. I'm not, you know, I'm not a good mum or I'm not a good parent. But Then I listen and I say I've learned something today and it's something I can at least implement and that is so important. Of course. So I always say you're never gonna agree with a hundred percent of what you hear on any podcast or any book you read, but if you take away even one thing and that changes your life or your child's life, what a beautiful thing. Yeah. And where can people find you? They can find me. gosh, it is StepparentCoach on social media, so just at stepparentcoach. They can't find me on p my podcast. Sorry, I'm losing my train of thought of w where where do you find me? On my podcast is our Step Parent Podcast on Spotify and YouTube. So jump on over there and yeah, my DMs are always open. Thank you. No, thank you. Thanks for having me.