The Perfection Trap with Thomas Curran

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Welcome to the Be Good podcast,
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where we explore the application of behavioral economics for good in order to nudge better business and better lives.
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Hi,
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and welcome to this episode of Be Good,
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brought to you by BVNH Consulting,
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a global consultancy specializing in the application of behavioral science for successful behavior change.
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Every month,
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we get to speak with a leader in the field of behavioral science,
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psychology,
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and neuroscience in order to get to know more about them,
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their work,
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and its application to emerging issues.
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My name is Eric Singler,
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founder and CEO of BVA Nudge Consulting,
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and with me is my colleague,
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my dear colleague,
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Ted Uthoff,
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CEO of BVA Nudge Consulting UK and Global Chief
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Growth Officer.
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Hi,
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Ted.
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Hi,
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Eric.
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Happy to be back on the podcast with you for this episode.
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It's been a while.
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So
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I'm delighted to be introducing our guest for this episode,
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Professor Thomas Curran.
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Thomas is the Associate Professor in the Department of Psychological and Behavioral Science at the London School of Economics.
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And he's a world-leading expert on perfectionism and author of the best-selling book,
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The Perfection Trap,
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the science of why we never feel enough,
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which will be the focus of our conversation today.
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Thomas's TED Talk on Perfectionism received over 3 million views at last count,
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and Professor Curran has written for major international publications such as Time magazine and the Harvard Business Review.
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And his work has been featured on the BBC,
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on CNN,
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and in The New Scientist,
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New York Times,
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and the Wall Street Journal.
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Thomas,
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welcome to Be Good podcast for the first time.
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Oh,
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it's a pleasure to be here.
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I can't wait for our chat.
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Thank you for the kind introduction.
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Thomas,
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thank you again so much for being with us today.
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Before talking about the perfection chart,
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we would like to know a little more about you and your career.
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So
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I would like to ask you some questions.
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First,
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I think you earned a Master of Science by research from the University of
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Bedfordshire and a PhD in Psychology.
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from the University of Leeds.
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Could you tell us about how you came to be interested in psychology first and maybe also in burial science?
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Gosh,
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well,
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my background is not the traditional one.
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So just to,
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yeah,
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spoiler alert before we go into it,
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but
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I don't have a typical,
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I wanted to be,
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I was an athlete when I was younger,
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so I played football and
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professional football for Aston Villa so I was on their academy until I was 14 and unfortunately I got cut really brutally which is what happens sometimes you know you don't quite make the grade and they say bye-bye we're not keeping you on and that was a very devastating formative experience for me because I thought so you will be not the new Neymar no exactly no but I thought I was that's that's the tragedy and
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I thought I was going to be the next David Beckham or
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Ryan Giggs whatever and uh
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Didn't quite happen,
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but it was,
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I mean,
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obviously that was a blessing in disguise because that made me want to go to university and study a bit further.
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And if maybe I hadn't been cut,
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I wouldn't have done that.
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And so I would have had a completely different life trajectory.
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So it was a bit of a blessing in disguise.
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Even in the moment,
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it was really devastating.
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So I wanted to go and do sport,
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something to do with sport,
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because it's really interesting that I did a undergraduate degree in sport and exercise science.
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I learned a lot about the human body by
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biomechanics of human action but also interestingly i learned a lot about the psychology of human behavior particularly um what it means to perform under pressure uh how you could stay resilient under adversity um and also what motivates people to keep going when things get tough and that was something that really i don't know captured my imagination i suppose so
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that's why my master's i focused on psychology because i wanted to know more about that area i wanted to know what's going on inside the athlete's mind.
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So I studied a lot of...
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um youth sports participants and we're interested in things like burnout and engagement and motivation and what makes them tick and all the rest of it uh and i carried that on for my phd and towards the end of the phd this concept of perfectionism kept coming back because in the athlete world right high performers elite performers perfection highest
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and you know excessive standards are really the kind of norm so but you see a lot of perfectionism in this context and combined with a perfectionistic...
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views seeing the world in myself you know I put myself under a lot of pressure and
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I blamed myself and things went wrong and then I went right back to those forms of experiences being cut by the academy now devastating the wars and how I blame myself
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And I saw a lot of perfectionism myself,
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I saw a lot of perfectionism in people I was studying.
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So that was where it started.
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And then post PhD,
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I started to do a lot of work in perfectionism,
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how it impacts young people in particular and says the mental health.
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And then
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I did the first study to look at how perfectionism was changing among young people,
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because that was something that interested me.
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I wanted to know whether there's a growing phenomenon.
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We found it was.
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And then that's when I got invited to do the TED talk.
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And then that's where I got invited to do the book.
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And then here we are today.
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With you guys talking about perfectionism.
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So I'd like to think that in my own little way,
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I've managed to put perfectionism on the map and I'm quite proud of that team.
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Thanks a lot.
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Could you now share with us if you have any mentors that had a particularly strong influence on you,
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any researchers,
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other people who have played an influential role in your professional career?
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Yeah,
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my...
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PhD supervisor,
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Dr.
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or Professor Andrew Hills.
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I was kind of lucky to have Andrew in my life because Andrew was a young academic when I was coming through to do my PhD at Leeds.
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He had a lot of energy to give me and he's a very good thinker,
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a very sharp thinker,
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particularly in the conceptual area of perfectionism.
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He's made some profound insights on perfectionism as a multidimensional characteristic rather than the sort of the unidimensional characteristic.
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Maybe we can go into that.
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And he's also...
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done a lot of work looking at how you analyze perfections from a multi-dimensional perspective as well because it's not as easy as it sounds but once you've got multiple pieces that's a difficult thing to statistically aggregate and I don't know so he's done a lot of work there very influential to me and then the two big titans I suppose in the field of Gordon Flett and Paul
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Hewitt have done a lot of the heavy lifting over the years developing and model of perfectionism and then developing questionnaires and testing it both in the field and also in the clinic so those are the two I would say
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big inspirational figures in my life.
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Thanks,
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Thomas.
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And you mentioned them quite early on in the book about some conversations you had in Toronto and really kind of thinking about perfectionism in a new way.
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Before we hop there,
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you mentioned,
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you know,
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playing football and kind of having a moment of letdown and change of your plans.
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You describe yourself as a perfectionist.
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Can you tell a little bit more about how that's manifested in your life and how that kind of led you on the trajectory of?
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of your study and your scholarship um oh there's so many layers to it but growing up where i came where i did in the working class community um football was your big escape really one of the biggest gateways the other one is education but you've got to be really good because you don't have like the support networks or the additional tutoring and all the rest of it that maybe other kids do so you so the easier one a
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little bit that way and also the really fun one
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is to throw yourself into something like sports right so that was kind of that was that was the way that i saw myself succeeding and of course that comes crashing down in an instant right and and then you have to re-evaluate yourself and re-evaluate your place in the world and what you're going to do and how you'll get how what's the alternative like what's the alternative route now but this one's been closed off uh so
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that's where as i mentioned that's where education and pushing myself in that sphere came.
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But I've always been quite an anxious person,
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always been a bit of an anxious kid.
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And so I don't do things by halves.
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And of course,
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you know,
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once I throw myself into something,
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I really want to do it to the maximum.
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And that,
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I think,
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comes from a lot of insecurities about not feeling good enough or not feeling like,
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you know,
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this is an area or a space that I belong in.
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And so in order to compensate or overcompensate for those feelings,
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I tend to work really hard.
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I tend to try to put on my best face.
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I try to make sure that everyone sees I'm working and,
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and.
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doing a good job and all the rest of it and those neuroses these anxieties um as you go higher and higher you'd think they would ameliorate right but they don't they just get harder and harder and harder to deal with they become more powerful and they become actually uh um
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like you know they can become quite negative as an influence on your life you know you can really worry now once you go higher that you're going to get found out that people are going to see oh you know this guy
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is actually really stupid and he doesn't belong here and he doesn't know what he's talking about he's not across the statistics he's not across the details so you overcompensate even more to try to prove that you have the abilities to no one else but yourself really like every time you do something well you're relieved because you didn't screw up right so you're just proving to yourself that you can do these things and and
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you know the higher you go the worse it gets and that was kind of my experience through my phd through my postdoc and
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into my early academic career,
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I was just pushing,
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pushing,
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pushing,
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pushing,
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proving,
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proving,
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proving.
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And ultimately it culminated in some difficult mental health circumstances,
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a lot of burnout.
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And that was...
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The moment where I realized this thing I was studying was also the thing that was having a negative impact on my life.
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And for you,
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Thomas,
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it was football and then academics.
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I'm American,
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as you can tell.
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And I think about kids when I was a kid and kids who I knew in the U.S.
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now.
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And I lived in Singapore for 11 years.
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There's a lot of pressure on quite young kids.
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If it's not football,
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it's basketball.
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If it's not basketball,
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it's dance.
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If it's not dance,
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it's violin.
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If it's not violin,
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it's whatever,
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right?
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It's kind of a two-pronged question.
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Are we doing a disservice by our kids to push for this kind of excellence and focus when they're just kids?
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And I guess the other part of my question is,
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you call perfectionism a trap.
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I mean,
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it's literally in the title of the book.
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What makes it a trap and how do we think about it that way instead of how it's held kind of on high?
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Well,
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the story of excellence is…
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is a very good thing you know there's nothing wrong we wanted to do well and having ambitions and high goals um i think the the issue becomes where where it's fed from and why you were doing it that's the key um and perfectionism comes from a place of insecurities it's a sense of i need to do more because to prove to myself i'm good enough or to prove to other people that i'm good enough and if
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if kids if we if we create environments for kids where they have to prove themselves via metrics and
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exam scores or test results or through performances and in their athletics and sports endeavors then we inadvertently i think teach them that they're only really worth something when they've done well in a certain activity or domain and that they're worth less if they haven't succeeded right and that changes the meaning of that success very subtly but importantly from a place of purpose meaning ambition wanting to do well to a place of having to almost justify ourselves we
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always feel like we're
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We're in the court of appeal for ourselves all the time,
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trying to exonerate ourselves of our sins or of our inadequacies,
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right?
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And that's like existing in quicksand,
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right?
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Because you can never ever stay above the surface.
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There's always going to be moments where you're going to find challenge and things are going to get on top of us.
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And that's where the mental health difficulties start to come in.
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So I don't think strife or excellence is a bad thing,
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but it's just about why and how,
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why we're doing it that could be problematic.
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Early on in the book,
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you talk about perfectionism is not just this kind of blanket term or thing.
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In fact,
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you look at kind of three types of perfectionism.
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You talk about other-oriented,
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self-oriented and socially prescribed.
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I know that's complex,
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but quite quickly for our listeners,
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can you draw a bit of white space between the three?
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Yeah,
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perfectionism is not a unidimensional trait as most people conceive of it.
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They think,
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oh,
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it's just high standards.
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as you know extreme conscientious actually perfection is way more than those things it's uh it is high standards and we do have a term for for excessive standards called self-oriented perfectionism which comes from within but when you study perfectionism and you talk to a perfectionist you see time and time again they'll tell you perfectionism doesn't just come from inside but it also affects felt from the outside too so they
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They feel that other people expect them to be perfect.
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So not only do they expect themselves to be perfect,
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but if I expect myself to be perfect,
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then other people expect me to be perfect too,
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right?
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So this is called socially prescribed perfectionism.
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And then there's a third type of perfectionism you see in the clinic and in the field,
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and that's other kinds of perfectionism,
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which is perfectionist standards turned outward onto other people.
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So if I expect myself to be perfect and I'm pulling myself over hot coals to achieve excessive standards,
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well,
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it's only fair that you do that as well,
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right?
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Like that just seems justified,
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right?
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So there's this...
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projection of perfection outwards onto other people that occurs at the same time as high standards,
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at the same time as high social perceptions.
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So these three elements,
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self,
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social,
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and other,
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are what we understand to be a multi-dimensional perspective of perfectionism.
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And you can have different levels of each one.
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Some people can hire themselves,
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some people can hire social,
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and all the rest of it.
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But nevertheless,
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that's how we measure it.
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And you argue that perfectionism is not just a personality trait.
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as you were mentioning,
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but it's really a societal issue that we need to face.
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Can you elaborate a little bit on that distinction and then why that's so important for us to actually face this and discuss it?
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Yeah,
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I'd describe perfectionism as a characteristic.
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So we have temperaments and dispositions that are more or less hardwired and about
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50% of our personality traits are inherited.
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So a lot of how we turn out is genetic.
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And perfectionism is
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Not too dissimilar,
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about 30-40%
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of perfectionism is inherited,
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but the rest is socially acquired.
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And when we're talking about socially acquired,
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what we're really talking about is an adaptation to the world around us.
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How we calibrate our behaviours,
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the way we speak to other people,
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the way we present ourselves online and in person,
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to conform to certain societal expectations and standards in a world that...
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is expecting high standards that wants you to present your best put your best foot forward in a world where social media has so many glowing glittering images of perfection and where schools college and and all the rest that you're expected to continually excel well i think perfectionism is really the cultural adaptation to those
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excessive standards and i think what we're seeing in those rising levels that i talked about earlier is a
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as a direct result of young people in particular responding to excessive pressure with more perfectionistic tendencies.
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I think,
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Thomas,
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we have now a clear idea about your global perspective,
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but we would like to go and to dive deeper into the details of your book.
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First,
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I think your research shows that perfectionism has increased significantly
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in recent decades?
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What are,
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according to you,
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the main societal forces driving this trend?
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Well,
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I think,
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first and foremost,
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one of the things I focused on in the book is socially prescribed perfectionism because that's what's increasing most deeply.
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But if I may,
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I will start with self-oriented because self-oriented perfection isn't rising as quickly,
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but when you look at the average...
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00:16:33.393 --> 00:16:48.622
ratings that young people give to measures of self-oriented perfectionism remember self-oriented perfection is high and excessive standards for oneself they start really high like around about five and a one to seven scale that's a really high place to start and it's been like that for many many decades so
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00:16:48.623 --> 00:17:01.549
i think in the in the west in particular um we have had a lot of self-oriented perfectionism um already and that's not necessarily a bad thing right if you have self-oriented perfectionism without socially prescribed perfectionism
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00:17:02.621 --> 00:17:05.663
And then there's the reasonably healthy,
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well I would be hesitant to say healthy because there are issues that are going to perfection,
305
00:17:09.565 --> 00:17:17.190
but nevertheless that can carry you quite far and if you live in a society that is accommodative of those high standards,
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i.e.
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that you get rewarded for the effort that you put in,
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as was the case decades ago,
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still is sort of the case today,
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there's been a bit of a stagnation in terms of social mobility.
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00:17:28.576 --> 00:17:29.937
but nevertheless if you combine a
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an accommodative society and economy with high levels of self-awareness and perfectionism,
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there's an argument that that's a very good mix.
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00:17:37.562 --> 00:17:46.788
But what we're seeing more recently is high levels of self-awareness and perfectionism combined with high and rising levels of socially prescribed perfectionism.
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00:17:47.109 --> 00:17:52.572
And that's a real problem because what you have there is high self-standards in combination with a lot of concern.
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Concern about how we're looking,
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00:17:53.813 --> 00:17:55.274
concern about how we're appearing,
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a lot of worry and anxiety and fears of failure.
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00:17:59.537 --> 00:18:15.626
a lot of indecisiveness about whether we're doing things correctly and and as a consequence a lot of allied mental health difficulties anxiety depression ruminative thought patterns compulsive tendencies and all the rest of it which are linked to those perfectionistic concerns and
320
00:18:15.627 --> 00:18:27.593
i think we're seeing those rising expectations because simply put uh young people now come into a growing up into a completely different world social media is almost certainly
321
00:18:28.077 --> 00:18:56.725
a contributor to those high and raising social expectations i don't think there's any doubt about that but social media is an advertising platform in its essence and we've had these pressures in our lives um you know for many many decades i think what's different about social media is it's put us put it there 24 7 we can't escape it and it's we're the content creators right so we're the we're the people that create that aura of discontent into which those targeted advertisers thrive so it's kind of a perfect advertising concoction if you could ever think one
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very very powerful tool and so i do think social media is the role but you know look you know schools have become more competitive we know that college admission has become much more competitive we know that i mean think
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00:19:08.888 --> 00:19:26.173
14 of applicants uh it's ivy league a decade ago now it's under seven percent so that's a huge drop in the um admission to elite college which obviously young people see and their parents see and they pass on that expectation and pressure to do one in school and college through.
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00:19:26.373 --> 00:19:27.434
high levels of expectation,
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more surveillance,
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monitoring,
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and all the rest of it.
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00:19:29.855 --> 00:19:32.657
So there are many different factors,
329
00:19:32.717 --> 00:19:38.802
many different reasons that I think we're seeing high levels of pressure and a lot more perceptions of social pressure in particular rising.
330
00:19:39.962 --> 00:19:45.046
And we're worried about that because it's that mix of high self-oriented and high socially prescribed,
331
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which has really problematic consequences in terms of the mental health of young people.
332
00:19:50.450 --> 00:19:54.853
How do neoliberal values self-
333
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optimization,
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meritocracy,
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personal responsibility,
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fuel perfectionism.
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The values of optimization and...
338
00:20:07.690 --> 00:20:12.132
And maximization is very important to the neoliberal world,
339
00:20:12.212 --> 00:20:17.994
particularly when it comes to efficiency.
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00:20:21.115 --> 00:20:30.279
If you could think about the most efficient way for people in society to grow economies in the fastest possible way and shortest possible time,
341
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it would be for them themselves to do the pushing.
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00:20:33.501 --> 00:20:37.202
it would be for them themselves to be almost the um
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uh cracking the whip on themselves right they wouldn't need an organization or a firm to do it for them like perhaps was the case in the past that actually they they embody that almost neurotic sense of striving to do more to consume more to uh to work more right and i
344
00:20:54.722 --> 00:21:03.630
kind of we can leave them alone to do that because they've taken on and adopted that that value system and i think what we're seeing young people who in the past
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00:21:03.770 --> 00:21:18.794
who were tyrannized by what karen horny called the tyranny of should like you should behave in a certain way you should look a certain way you should work you should work in a certain way you should parent in a certain way we have today a different tyranny and maybe a tyranny of could right that you could be um
346
00:21:19.274 --> 00:21:31.198
an influencer you could be a billionaire you you could own or be the ceo of the company like these are things that are possible because the options and opportunities are limitless and whilst that freedom and that um
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00:21:31.678 --> 00:21:33.319
And that sense of possibility,
348
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on the one hand,
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is a very positive thing because we are free to strive.
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On the other hand,
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it can be extremely,
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00:21:40.541 --> 00:21:42.861
extremely crushing too,
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because there is no end point.
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There is no point at which we feel like we can ever be content because that continual wheel of growth keeps us in a place of scarcity,
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in a place of lack,
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in a place of deficit.
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and
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And the more we run,
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work and strive,
360
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the more exhausted we become,
361
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the more burned out we become,
362
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the more anxious we become.
363
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And even if we make progress,
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it's not enough because there's always something more.
365
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It's like trying to chase the horizon.
366
00:22:10.148 --> 00:22:10.788
The closer you get,
367
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the further it moves from our reach.
368
00:22:13.789 --> 00:22:17.671
So I think imbuing these values of neoliberalism,
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on the one hand,
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as I say,
371
00:22:20.532 --> 00:22:22.433
probably spurs a lot of economic growth,
372
00:22:22.453 --> 00:22:23.954
which I suppose is good for society.
373
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But on the other hand,
374
00:22:25.108 --> 00:22:26.067
at an individual level,
375
00:22:26.068 --> 00:22:26.728
at a personal level,
376
00:22:26.729 --> 00:22:30.030
it creates a lot of perfectionism and with it mental health difficulties.
377
00:22:31.911 --> 00:22:32.251
Thomas,
378
00:22:32.291 --> 00:22:37.395
we have already spoken about the effect of social media.
379
00:22:37.895 --> 00:22:41.978
I would like to ask you about the education system,
380
00:22:42.578 --> 00:22:50.404
which plays a key role in shaping young people's attitude towards success and failure.
381
00:22:50.824 --> 00:22:53.986
Could you explain this role and talk about it?
382
00:22:54.246 --> 00:22:56.627
education system and perfectionism.
383
00:22:58.107 --> 00:22:58.687
Yeah,
384
00:22:58.707 --> 00:23:05.669
the education system as it's currently constructed is really a sorting or a clearinghouse,
385
00:23:05.729 --> 00:23:05.889
right?
386
00:23:05.949 --> 00:23:06.930
Like you're sifting,
387
00:23:06.950 --> 00:23:07.490
you're ranking,
388
00:23:07.510 --> 00:23:14.632
you're sorting kids into ranked classes so that you can prepare them for the ultimate goal,
389
00:23:14.672 --> 00:23:17.433
which is to reach college education,
390
00:23:17.613 --> 00:23:17.993
right?
391
00:23:18.093 --> 00:23:19.713
And particularly in the US,
392
00:23:20.514 --> 00:23:20.754
you know,
393
00:23:20.755 --> 00:23:21.254
that's done...
394
00:23:21.770 --> 00:23:24.691
That shift in sorting ranking is done through standardized testing.
395
00:23:24.711 --> 00:23:25.791
It's also the case in the UK.
396
00:23:26.991 --> 00:23:27.151
And,
397
00:23:27.152 --> 00:23:27.332
you know,
398
00:23:27.372 --> 00:23:37.394
kids are exposed to excessive amounts of standardized testing from a very young age to make sure that they're allocated in the correct classes so that they're charred through to the,
399
00:23:37.395 --> 00:23:37.574
you know,
400
00:23:37.654 --> 00:23:45.576
to the correct teachers and all the rest of it so that they're entered into the right exams and so they can maximize their chance of getting to a good college.
401
00:23:45.577 --> 00:23:49.618
And this is fine.
402
00:23:49.619 --> 00:23:50.158
It's efficient.
403
00:23:50.518 --> 00:23:50.998
with bah
404
00:23:51.394 --> 00:23:52.515
We were talking about E-Levels,
405
00:23:52.535 --> 00:23:54.136
it's a very efficient way to do things.
406
00:23:54.156 --> 00:23:55.436
If you can measure and rank,
407
00:23:55.516 --> 00:23:59.098
you've got the most efficient system to get kids in,
408
00:23:59.239 --> 00:24:04.422
to allocate kids into the correct colleges.
409
00:24:04.862 --> 00:24:06.683
But it does have a cost,
410
00:24:06.684 --> 00:24:06.803
right,
411
00:24:06.804 --> 00:24:07.884
as an individual cost.
412
00:24:07.885 --> 00:24:15.348
An individual cost is that young people come to define themselves based on how they're performing and where they're ranking relative to other kids.
413
00:24:15.408 --> 00:24:18.730
And so exam results become a massive part of their self-esteem.
414
00:24:19.170 --> 00:24:21.652
They learn very quickly that when they've done well,
415
00:24:22.113 --> 00:24:23.834
that they're worth something in the world,
416
00:24:23.854 --> 00:24:27.818
that people give them attention and appreciation and validation.
417
00:24:27.878 --> 00:24:29.339
But when they haven't done so well,
418
00:24:29.759 --> 00:24:32.121
those things are withheld or suddenly deferred.
419
00:24:33.743 --> 00:24:39.528
And that teaches them that they need to keep excelling,
420
00:24:39.548 --> 00:24:42.230
that they need to keep working as hard as they possibly can.
421
00:24:42.270 --> 00:24:46.033
And even an objectively high achievement isn't enough because they have to keep going.
422
00:24:46.053 --> 00:24:46.774
They have to keep.
423
00:24:47.174 --> 00:25:08.310
for the next exam and the next exam and the next exam and so this inculcates in in young people i think anyway a sense of dependency on their achievement and how do we guarantee that we achieve well we work them to the maximum and we try to be perfect that's just a natural response and adaptation to the very pressurizing mind
424
00:25:09.814 --> 00:25:10.034
Thomas,
425
00:25:10.194 --> 00:25:13.675
I'd like to talk a little bit about the consequences of that perfectionism.
426
00:25:13.735 --> 00:25:15.035
You've touched on this a bit,
427
00:25:15.115 --> 00:25:19.737
but you highlight a strong link in the book between perfectionism and mental health issues,
428
00:25:20.057 --> 00:25:21.117
specifically anxiety,
429
00:25:21.257 --> 00:25:21.717
depression,
430
00:25:21.897 --> 00:25:23.218
even suicidal ideation.
431
00:25:23.678 --> 00:25:25.638
Can you explain this link a little bit?
432
00:25:26.979 --> 00:25:27.099
Yeah,
433
00:25:27.100 --> 00:25:33.480
so perfectionism is what's called a trans-diagnostic risk factor for a lot of mental health difficulties.
434
00:25:34.001 --> 00:25:38.762
And the reason it's a trans-diagnostic risk factor is because it has a couple of built-in vulnerabilities.
435
00:25:39.318 --> 00:25:42.019
They make it very distinctive as a personality characteristic.
436
00:25:42.940 --> 00:25:45.421
The first building vulnerability is vulnerability to stress.
437
00:25:45.501 --> 00:25:52.924
So if your whole self-esteem is dependent on how you look and the perfect facade that you're trying to project into the world,
438
00:25:53.364 --> 00:25:56.926
then anything that shatters that has a shattering impact,
439
00:25:57.026 --> 00:25:58.866
not just on what you've done,
440
00:25:58.906 --> 00:26:00.687
but also who you are as a person.
441
00:26:01.107 --> 00:26:06.850
You've revealed the impervious self that you're trying to hide and you are excessively self-critical.
442
00:26:08.230 --> 00:26:14.373
and extremely find and ruminate and brood over those mistakes,
443
00:26:14.413 --> 00:26:16.514
failures and setbacks intensely.
444
00:26:17.934 --> 00:26:19.335
And we see that time and time again in love,
445
00:26:19.336 --> 00:26:19.615
by the way.
446
00:26:19.616 --> 00:26:22.296
We put perfectionists in stressful situations,
447
00:26:22.656 --> 00:26:24.957
particularly when they fail publicly.
448
00:26:25.958 --> 00:26:28.519
The emotional responses are very pronounced,
449
00:26:28.539 --> 00:26:30.119
so very high levels of shame,
450
00:26:30.179 --> 00:26:30.900
high levels of guilt,
451
00:26:31.000 --> 00:26:32.100
high levels of embarrassment.
452
00:26:32.540 --> 00:26:33.561
Their self-esteem plummets,
453
00:26:33.601 --> 00:26:34.501
as does their pride.
454
00:26:35.302 --> 00:26:36.182
and
455
00:26:36.542 --> 00:26:38.604
And so that stress vulnerability,
456
00:26:38.664 --> 00:26:42.007
that stress reactivity is one of the reasons why,
457
00:26:42.487 --> 00:26:42.727
you know,
458
00:26:42.807 --> 00:26:48.172
over time you see a lot of mental health problems aren't just linked to anxiety or obsessive tendencies,
459
00:26:48.232 --> 00:26:49.393
but low mood,
460
00:26:49.453 --> 00:26:50.654
depression and,
461
00:26:50.694 --> 00:26:50.934
you know,
462
00:26:51.195 --> 00:26:52.476
and worse in some cases.
463
00:26:52.856 --> 00:26:59.962
But there's also another reason why perfectionism is linked to mental health difficulties and why it's linked to a whole host of them rather than just one or two.
464
00:27:00.503 --> 00:27:03.145
And that's because perfectionists move themselves away from other people.
465
00:27:03.146 --> 00:27:04.346
We don't talk about this.
466
00:27:04.898 --> 00:27:05.899
part of perfectionism enough,
467
00:27:05.919 --> 00:27:06.339
I don't think,
468
00:27:06.340 --> 00:27:07.700
and I didn't touch on it enough in the book.
469
00:27:07.701 --> 00:27:08.480
I wish I had.
470
00:27:09.061 --> 00:27:19.088
But one of the things that you see a lot in the literature is that perfectionists find it incredibly difficult to connect with other people because there's an inauthenticity about their interactions.
471
00:27:19.108 --> 00:27:21.049
So they're constantly putting on a facade.
472
00:27:21.309 --> 00:27:24.071
They're calibrating what they say and how they behave in the presence of others.
473
00:27:24.471 --> 00:27:28.754
And that is in no way conducive to warm and reciprocal social relations.
474
00:27:28.774 --> 00:27:34.178
And so the more that they find themselves rejected by other people because they are unable to be vulnerable
475
00:27:34.478 --> 00:27:35.859
the more they move themselves away.
476
00:27:35.899 --> 00:27:37.321
They feel that people don't understand them.
477
00:27:37.322 --> 00:27:40.043
They isolate themselves and they feel a lot of loneliness.
478
00:27:40.063 --> 00:27:47.169
And that loneliness and alienation is also linked to a lot of very difficult mental health consequences.
479
00:27:47.970 --> 00:27:51.253
And so that's one of the reasons why I wanted to write the book,
480
00:27:51.273 --> 00:27:55.056
to really sort of raise the alarm that this isn't something that we can just try and,
481
00:27:55.057 --> 00:27:55.236
you know,
482
00:27:56.077 --> 00:27:59.480
manage around the edges and sand away the hard edges.
483
00:28:00.061 --> 00:28:00.541
That actually,
484
00:28:00.542 --> 00:28:00.741
you know,
485
00:28:00.781 --> 00:28:01.342
there's a really...
486
00:28:01.602 --> 00:28:10.450
there's really problematic mental health consequences that come from living life under the influence of tagging.
487
00:28:12.291 --> 00:28:13.933
You spoke about this a little bit at the beginning,
488
00:28:13.993 --> 00:28:14.233
Thomas,
489
00:28:14.253 --> 00:28:20.938
but there's probably a kind of common belief and maybe even a celebrated belief that perfectionism drives excellence.
490
00:28:21.699 --> 00:28:25.042
But your research suggests it can actually lead to procrastination,
491
00:28:25.522 --> 00:28:26.443
burnout and worse.
492
00:28:26.964 --> 00:28:27.944
Why does that happen?
493
00:28:28.165 --> 00:28:29.626
And can both things be true?
494
00:28:30.858 --> 00:28:30.978
Well,
495
00:28:30.979 --> 00:28:32.619
it happens for two reasons.
496
00:28:32.979 --> 00:28:37.241
And one's linked to the stress reactivity that I talked about just a moment ago.
497
00:28:38.822 --> 00:28:39.723
But perfectionists,
498
00:28:40.163 --> 00:28:40.583
you know,
499
00:28:40.803 --> 00:28:42.684
they do work really hard.
500
00:28:43.145 --> 00:28:43.685
Of course they do.
501
00:28:44.085 --> 00:28:47.747
But the moment they hit challenge is when you start to find out a lot about them.
502
00:28:47.847 --> 00:28:50.829
Because if they find those motives difficult,
503
00:28:51.089 --> 00:28:52.490
they've experienced a lot of guilt,
504
00:28:52.610 --> 00:28:53.650
embarrassment and shame,
505
00:28:54.211 --> 00:28:59.433
then they're going to be reluctant to put themselves in a position where they're going to feel those things again because those emotions are so intense.
506
00:28:59.814 --> 00:29:00.314
So when we...
507
00:29:01.126 --> 00:29:04.889
Another thing we do in the lab is when we put people under stressful and challenging situations,
508
00:29:04.929 --> 00:29:06.830
maybe we tell them that they failed at a task.
509
00:29:07.171 --> 00:29:07.991
Often we use sport,
510
00:29:08.071 --> 00:29:09.352
which goes back to my school background,
511
00:29:09.353 --> 00:29:12.995
because it's a really good microcosm of the competitive world.
512
00:29:12.996 --> 00:29:14.796
If we give people a task and say,
513
00:29:14.856 --> 00:29:18.519
you've got to cover a certain amount of distance in a certain amount of time on a bike,
514
00:29:18.520 --> 00:29:19.079
for instance,
515
00:29:19.480 --> 00:29:21.461
and you should be able to do that based on your fitness comfortably,
516
00:29:21.961 --> 00:29:22.642
and away you go.
517
00:29:24.523 --> 00:29:25.804
We'll do something a little bit naughty,
518
00:29:25.864 --> 00:29:27.325
like we'll tell them they didn't meet the goal.
519
00:29:27.806 --> 00:29:28.086
And then
520
00:29:28.346 --> 00:29:30.089
we'll give another opportunity to try again.
521
00:29:30.109 --> 00:29:31.552
And one of the things we're interested in is,
522
00:29:31.812 --> 00:29:34.137
is not just their emotional responses that are valid,
523
00:29:34.138 --> 00:29:35.379
but also the behavioral response.
524
00:29:35.459 --> 00:29:37.402
Like what do they do on our second attempt?
525
00:29:37.943 --> 00:29:38.725
And what you see.
526
00:29:39.664 --> 00:29:41.565
across many laboratory experiments,
527
00:29:41.625 --> 00:29:42.246
some in our labs,
528
00:29:42.266 --> 00:29:42.946
some in other labs,
529
00:29:43.207 --> 00:29:47.169
is that when you tell a perfectionist they've failed and ask them to try again,
530
00:29:47.289 --> 00:29:49.771
their effort on the second attempt drops off a cliff.
531
00:29:50.111 --> 00:29:54.394
Like they just stop trying because they put everything of themselves at that first effort.
532
00:29:54.414 --> 00:29:55.715
They didn't achieve it.
533
00:29:56.055 --> 00:29:57.856
They feel a lot of embarrassment and shame.
534
00:29:57.896 --> 00:30:01.959
And so in order to avoid those motions the second time round,
535
00:30:02.219 --> 00:30:03.520
they just pull themselves away,
536
00:30:03.800 --> 00:30:04.061
right?
537
00:30:04.561 --> 00:30:08.744
And so that that avoidance of difficult situations is characteristic of perfectionism
538
00:30:09.044 --> 00:30:11.406
You also see it in procrastinating behaviors as well.
539
00:30:11.466 --> 00:30:13.548
When you've got a big task coming up,
540
00:30:14.228 --> 00:30:18.392
the anxiety about completing it is so fierce that you just move yourself away.
541
00:30:18.393 --> 00:30:19.412
You don't feel those feelings,
542
00:30:19.413 --> 00:30:20.473
so you do other things,
543
00:30:20.493 --> 00:30:21.214
go on Netflix,
544
00:30:22.475 --> 00:30:24.677
have a social media scroll or whatever,
545
00:30:24.737 --> 00:30:27.279
just to get out of that difficult headspace.
546
00:30:27.699 --> 00:30:28.099
And of course,
547
00:30:28.620 --> 00:30:28.760
yes,
548
00:30:28.780 --> 00:30:30.661
it soothes the anxiety in the moment,
549
00:30:30.681 --> 00:30:32.583
but you're just damaged by the passage of time.
550
00:30:33.884 --> 00:30:35.625
And so avoidance,
551
00:30:35.685 --> 00:30:36.326
withdrawal,
552
00:30:36.366 --> 00:30:37.227
procrastination,
553
00:30:37.247 --> 00:30:38.688
that's one of the reasons why perfection is.
554
00:30:38.952 --> 00:31:02.874
find it difficult to perform and by the way meta analysis studies show this there is no relationship to perfectionism performance in the workplace none whatsoever zilch we can't find it it doesn't exist that's one of the reasons the other reason of course is the burnout you know confections work really really hard but they work too hard and they they're inefficient in their strobe right they put all their efforts towards things they can control like you know mundane stuff like emails or you you know,
555
00:31:02.914 --> 00:31:04.796
just writing up a report or...
556
00:31:05.200 --> 00:31:33.616
uh stuff that you know really doesn't require it high level diligence but they'll put it in anyway because they know they can control the outcomes and over time that intense effort into controllable stuff ends up into bad because they don't feel like they're making any progress rather than they feel that they're achieving much because they're not putting their effort into the stuff where the high value rewards are right the innovative stuff the risk-taking stuff like the other people are and so they're seeing themselves move away for the same amount of effort and you can imagine how demoralizing that is so that's why they burn out so
557
00:31:34.096 --> 00:31:34.476
Yeah,
558
00:31:34.477 --> 00:31:38.538
there's a paradoxical relation to perfectionism and performance that on the one hand,
559
00:31:38.558 --> 00:31:40.600
people think it's this thing that carries us forward.
560
00:31:41.000 --> 00:31:42.301
But when you really dive into it,
561
00:31:42.302 --> 00:31:43.301
you see a canal at the back.
562
00:31:45.062 --> 00:31:47.583
We've talked a lot about perfectionism and performance,
563
00:31:48.064 --> 00:31:51.265
but you also talk about perfectionism and how it can affect relationships.
564
00:31:51.806 --> 00:32:00.270
Can you explain a little bit how it creates tension in both personal and professional interactions when there might be a perfectionist or two perfectionists facing off?
565
00:32:00.891 --> 00:32:01.011
Well,
566
00:32:01.031 --> 00:32:02.151
that's the nightmare scenario.
567
00:32:04.016 --> 00:32:28.307
I like you know we've all had the demanding boss in our lives we could and certainly you know I'm no different you recognize another range of perfectionists when you meet on the demands are excessive they're too high and they simply can't they can't be met and there's a lot of criticism of worry and rumination and fear of failure that kind of starts to build in organizations where you have leaders who are perfectionistic and
568
00:32:28.308 --> 00:32:29.708
by the way that's bad for the organisation.
569
00:32:29.972 --> 00:32:33.034
Because once you start to build that fear of failure within an organization,
570
00:32:33.094 --> 00:32:34.255
people stop taking risks,
571
00:32:34.256 --> 00:32:35.396
they stop communicating with each other,
572
00:32:35.397 --> 00:32:37.177
they stop opening up to mistakes.
573
00:32:37.537 --> 00:32:38.918
And once that starts to happen,
574
00:32:39.418 --> 00:32:39.619
then,
575
00:32:39.859 --> 00:32:40.099
you know,
576
00:32:40.139 --> 00:32:41.380
you could be two,
577
00:32:41.520 --> 00:32:41.760
three,
578
00:32:41.980 --> 00:32:46.963
four phases down the line of a product development before you realize something catastrophic or something serious,
579
00:32:47.044 --> 00:32:47.244
right?
580
00:32:47.245 --> 00:32:48.384
So it's really,
581
00:32:48.905 --> 00:32:49.125
you know,
582
00:32:49.126 --> 00:32:51.066
it's a really problematic thing for an organization.
583
00:32:52.307 --> 00:32:52.547
But yeah,
584
00:32:52.987 --> 00:32:54.408
you see this all the time.
585
00:32:55.169 --> 00:32:55.729
It creates,
586
00:32:55.929 --> 00:32:58.371
overall interpretation creates a lot of interpersonal hostility,
587
00:32:58.391 --> 00:32:59.432
a lot of conflict.
588
00:32:59.928 --> 00:33:16.400
um so in the working environment it's not a good thing in your personal life as well it's also not a good thing you know as i mentioned it can move us away from our people because there's inauthenticity and if we're too demanding on our partner that can lead lead to a lot of resentment over time and you know as much as you love someone there's
589
00:33:16.460 --> 00:33:27.468
only so much you can take when it when you're being expected over and over and over again to to to be this perfect person they hold up in their mind's eye which you know nobody is because nobody's perfect so it
590
00:33:28.128 --> 00:33:49.766
is a lot of evidence also in the relational sphere in the personal relationship that it can create a lot of difficulty in in personal relationships too so yeah look creates a lot of mental health difficulties doesn't make us before any better and can be really difficult in an interpersonal sphere so i'm i'm running out of stuff here like i don't know there's much positive like seven we'll get there we'll get there thomas
591
00:33:50.006 --> 00:33:57.032
a lot of our listeners are business leaders so i would like to give a dive in the topic.
592
00:33:57.033 --> 00:33:59.013
topic of work environment,
593
00:34:00.254 --> 00:34:06.799
I think many business leaders view perfectionism as a positive trait that drives high performance.
594
00:34:07.359 --> 00:34:15.145
What does the research actually say about the relationship between perfectionism and workplace productivity?
595
00:34:15.765 --> 00:34:15.885
No,
596
00:34:16.025 --> 00:34:17.386
no relationship at all.
597
00:34:17.827 --> 00:34:20.028
No relationship at all.
598
00:34:20.029 --> 00:34:21.569
And I think it is a big insight.
599
00:34:22.050 --> 00:34:23.090
It's a huge insight.
600
00:34:23.110 --> 00:34:25.272
There's a meta-analysis
601
00:34:25.392 --> 00:34:43.703
by den hararian colleagues which we've done a few years ago found no relationship we just updated that study by adding a few more um investigations and also broadening the uh conceptualization of perfectionism and again we find minimal trivial relationship to perfectionism and performance when you think about how much effort these people put in
602
00:34:44.379 --> 00:35:12.718
right it's just not a productive use of time to to to strive in a perfectionistic way there's a lot of redundancy there and and uh and a lot of inefficiency right because perfectionists they are able to keep up but if you think about how much indecisiveness there is in how much procrastination there is how much avoidance there is like it's a superhuman effort that they're able the remarkable thing is that they are able to keep up given all of that self-handicapping in that they engage in.
603
00:35:13.739 --> 00:35:14.019
And so,
604
00:35:14.119 --> 00:35:14.379
you know,
605
00:35:15.159 --> 00:35:15.820
a business leader,
606
00:35:15.840 --> 00:35:16.540
you know,
607
00:35:16.580 --> 00:35:20.481
whenever I talk to business leaders or do speeches on perfectionism,
608
00:35:20.541 --> 00:35:21.601
one of the things that I really,
609
00:35:21.761 --> 00:35:24.722
it pains to emphasize is that,
610
00:35:25.162 --> 00:35:25.402
you know,
611
00:35:25.522 --> 00:35:28.903
it might sound great to have these high and aspirational,
612
00:35:28.963 --> 00:35:30.063
really excessive goals.
613
00:35:30.064 --> 00:35:30.183
And,
614
00:35:30.184 --> 00:35:30.744
you know,
615
00:35:30.864 --> 00:35:31.584
we do perfection,
616
00:35:31.604 --> 00:35:32.284
we'll hit excellence,
617
00:35:32.285 --> 00:35:32.984
that kind of thing.
618
00:35:33.084 --> 00:35:33.264
Right.
619
00:35:33.304 --> 00:35:38.026
But the evidence is clear that it's just not a formula for success.
620
00:35:38.986 --> 00:35:43.387
You have highlighted that workplaces often reinforce...
621
00:35:43.947 --> 00:35:46.588
socially prescribed perfectionism.
622
00:35:48.048 --> 00:35:54.530
So in what ways does a perfectionist work culture contribute to burnout,
623
00:35:54.650 --> 00:35:55.910
reduce creativity,
624
00:35:56.410 --> 00:35:56.831
and even,
625
00:35:56.871 --> 00:35:57.751
you mentioned,
626
00:35:57.752 --> 00:35:58.091
I think,
627
00:35:58.211 --> 00:36:00.151
lower overall performance?
628
00:36:00.212 --> 00:36:00.972
There's loads of ways.
629
00:36:00.973 --> 00:36:02.452
And it starts with onboarding.
630
00:36:02.453 --> 00:36:05.713
You don't have to work to organizations and firms.
631
00:36:07.053 --> 00:36:08.254
And it's understandable.
632
00:36:08.255 --> 00:36:13.075
We want to sing about our achievements and our productivity.
633
00:36:13.355 --> 00:36:16.037
and what we expect of colleagues and all the rest of it,
634
00:36:16.038 --> 00:36:17.818
particularly in those elite professions.
635
00:36:18.679 --> 00:36:24.583
I do understand that actually there is a necessity to have a high level of diligence in many,
636
00:36:24.663 --> 00:36:25.624
many elite professions.
637
00:36:26.324 --> 00:36:31.608
But that's very different from setting the bar of expectation,
638
00:36:31.648 --> 00:36:35.591
which particularly for new employees can feel very intimidating.
639
00:36:35.711 --> 00:36:38.292
Even though you don't mean it to be intimidating,
640
00:36:38.312 --> 00:36:41.775
even though you want to show young people that they're entering.
641
00:36:42.495 --> 00:36:58.624
you know an established and high performing environment what it can look like to young people is oh my goodness i'm already sinking and i haven't even started so so you know you have to be really careful almost from the onboarding moment of onboarding that you are
642
00:36:59.345 --> 00:37:10.991
that you're emphasizing the values and core beliefs of an organization in such a way that meets new colleagues where they are in the process of their journey and learning development and that
643
00:37:11.191 --> 00:37:15.333
And then that goes all the way through the onboarding and training and meeting the team.
644
00:37:15.393 --> 00:37:21.616
And I think organizations have a responsibility for young people to give them a safe space,
645
00:37:21.656 --> 00:37:24.137
particularly when they're new,
646
00:37:24.217 --> 00:37:25.578
because they are going to make mistakes.
647
00:37:25.598 --> 00:37:27.078
They are going to be learning the ropes.
648
00:37:27.459 --> 00:37:28.699
So letting them know that's okay,
649
00:37:28.739 --> 00:37:29.480
that's expected,
650
00:37:29.520 --> 00:37:30.180
that's normal.
651
00:37:30.700 --> 00:37:33.141
Normalizing setbacks,
652
00:37:33.802 --> 00:37:35.683
normalizing your own mistakes within teams,
653
00:37:35.684 --> 00:37:36.663
I think is a really good practice.
654
00:37:36.823 --> 00:38:06.311
if you've made a mistake on a particular day i think it's important to talk about that explain it diagnose it why did it happen how do we make sure you know this growth is a good the growth mindset is a it's something that you know i do have some misgivings about but when we're at the beginning of our journeys i think it's so important that we do emphasize that we're you know this is a culture of growth and that failure is permissible and mistakes are permissible and we're open and we talk about them um because all these things you know they sound like they're they're
655
00:38:07.447 --> 00:38:29.174
they're letting people off with mediocrity right that they sound like you know oh we're just going to settle for good enough right but but um actually no they they they provide the space for people to think a bit laterally they provide the space for people to think a bit differently and take a few risks here and there and that's where the innovation is right that's where the breakthroughs are and so paradoxically safe
656
00:38:29.194 --> 00:38:32.495
environments allow for a little bit of latitude in terms of performance and mistakes.
657
00:38:32.935 --> 00:38:41.302
can actually be much more high-performing environments for people than those stifling perfectionistic virus where you can't put a foot wrong.
658
00:38:41.382 --> 00:38:41.542
Ed,
659
00:38:41.742 --> 00:38:45.265
now we would like to talk about advice,
660
00:38:45.325 --> 00:38:46.486
recommendations,
661
00:38:46.646 --> 00:38:47.587
solutions.
662
00:38:48.387 --> 00:38:48.548
Yeah,
663
00:38:49.148 --> 00:38:51.510
enough of the origins and the bad news,
664
00:38:51.610 --> 00:38:51.910
Thomas.
665
00:38:52.070 --> 00:38:55.313
Now we are going to put the pressure on you about some solutions.
666
00:38:55.493 --> 00:38:57.114
And I think where Eric and I probably,
667
00:38:57.235 --> 00:38:58.636
when we were reading the book,
668
00:38:59.156 --> 00:39:02.639
what made us particularly excited is that you call out
669
00:39:03.219 --> 00:39:06.580
A similar thing that we have to say to our clients when it comes to applying behavioral science.
670
00:39:07.160 --> 00:39:07.460
Yes,
671
00:39:07.620 --> 00:39:10.781
there is an opportunity for individual solutions and intervention.
672
00:39:11.461 --> 00:39:14.242
But if you want to get serious about tackling perfectionism,
673
00:39:14.402 --> 00:39:17.043
you also have to look at some systemic structural solutions.
674
00:39:18.083 --> 00:39:19.223
Can you talk a little bit about that?
675
00:39:21.484 --> 00:39:22.024
Ultimately,
676
00:39:22.464 --> 00:39:24.645
I would consider myself to be a humanist.
677
00:39:24.646 --> 00:39:26.105
I'm also a materialist.
678
00:39:26.145 --> 00:39:29.706
I think if we focus too much on the individual,
679
00:39:30.666 --> 00:39:32.707
we lose sight of the broader context.
680
00:39:32.947 --> 00:39:37.193
that has created the adaptations which have resulted in perfectionism.
681
00:39:38.253 --> 00:39:40.695
And one of the frustrations I have with self-help,
682
00:39:40.696 --> 00:39:40.915
you know,
683
00:39:40.916 --> 00:39:41.976
I didn't write a self-help,
684
00:39:41.977 --> 00:39:42.456
you know,
685
00:39:42.696 --> 00:39:46.559
this book isn't a fluffy blanket that people can get cozy in,
686
00:39:46.679 --> 00:39:46.899
right?
687
00:39:46.999 --> 00:39:51.102
And it was a book that I wanted to challenge people themselves,
688
00:39:51.122 --> 00:39:55.505
but I also wanted to challenge the way that they see society as well.
689
00:39:56.006 --> 00:40:02.190
I know that that was a challenge with the publisher because they didn't want me to go down that route.
690
00:40:02.191 --> 00:40:04.832
But I think for my intellectual integrity,
691
00:40:04.872 --> 00:40:05.813
it is important that
692
00:40:06.413 --> 00:40:09.834
If I'm finding trends here that are operating at a societal level,
693
00:40:09.914 --> 00:40:12.896
that's to say that the mean levels of perfectionism are changing for everyone,
694
00:40:13.396 --> 00:40:22.860
then that doesn't point to an individual problem or a failure or some kind of solution that's required within the self,
695
00:40:22.960 --> 00:40:25.221
but something that actually is much broader.
696
00:40:25.581 --> 00:40:26.321
And what,
697
00:40:27.061 --> 00:40:27.842
for me anyway,
698
00:40:28.802 --> 00:40:34.545
the heart or the root of this problem is a culture in a society that has become obsessed with
699
00:40:35.105 --> 00:40:35.465
Um...
700
00:40:36.025 --> 00:40:37.546
in efficiency,
701
00:40:38.026 --> 00:40:38.426
growth,
702
00:40:39.086 --> 00:40:39.727
productivity,
703
00:40:40.427 --> 00:40:48.110
and has lost sight of the human needs with regards to security,
704
00:40:48.870 --> 00:41:03.216
with regards to a sense of purpose and meaning in the work that we do beyond the kind of transactional or the instrumental outcomes like pay and status
705
00:41:03.217 --> 00:41:04.497
and prestige and all the rest of it.
706
00:41:04.917 --> 00:41:05.457
And so one of those...
707
00:41:05.713 --> 00:41:05.953
You know,
708
00:41:06.033 --> 00:41:18.579
one of the things I write in the book is that I think at some level we have to become a little bit more agnostic about growth because we're at a stage in our economic development where growth is not being met with higher living standards.
709
00:41:18.580 --> 00:41:18.979
In fact,
710
00:41:19.019 --> 00:41:19.899
it's quite the opposite.
711
00:41:19.919 --> 00:41:20.260
Actually,
712
00:41:20.320 --> 00:41:25.722
we're seeing the American economy power forward at this moment in time whilst life expectancy falls,
713
00:41:25.782 --> 00:41:27.063
education attainment falls,
714
00:41:27.103 --> 00:41:32.305
mental health outcomes are deteriorating and there's become a disconnect really between.
715
00:41:32.665 --> 00:41:55.918
how fast an economy is growing and the living standards and and felt experiences of its people and and i'm not saying i'm against economic growth not at all i think it's an extremely important vehicle for societal progress but if it's not serving the needs of people then it's just empty growth it's hollow growth and actually it's creating more stress more anxiety as we try to push ourselves even harder um
716
00:41:55.919 --> 00:42:02.281
whilst uh finding the you know the reality is uh is is uh communities Peace.
717
00:42:03.125 --> 00:42:24.763
but they're getting poorer right it's where i grew up in a poor community you know we've had a lot of economic growth in the uk but my community has become poorer year on year so um so the lived experience uh is also something i think we need to uh bear in mind not just like the big picture economics and so that's why i say in the book if we become a bit more agnostic about growth focus more on human well-being um
718
00:42:25.383 --> 00:42:32.189
that a lot of the anxiety and pressures that surround perfectionism would be ameliorated along the way i think basic income is probably the
719
00:42:32.309 --> 00:42:49.298
biggest one um and that's and that's going to be important i think in an age of ai when a lot of jobs are displaced and there's a transitional period that we're going to experience particularly as ai becomes more sophisticated i think i think things like basic income are going to become a necessity really um
720
00:42:49.338 --> 00:43:01.245
in order to manage that transition but i don't think that's a bad thing i think that's a good thing because um in an age of abundance um if we continue to hold people in the quicksand of scarcity.
721
00:43:01.793 --> 00:43:04.754
and make them work for their existence,
722
00:43:05.074 --> 00:43:06.794
then they're going to feel perfectionistic.
723
00:43:06.814 --> 00:43:09.775
They're going to feel like they must strive to do more.
724
00:43:09.776 --> 00:43:09.975
You know,
725
00:43:09.976 --> 00:43:11.856
that tyranny of could and should that I talked about.
726
00:43:12.256 --> 00:43:17.738
Whereas if we give people security to explore their passions and hone their skills in ways that are,
727
00:43:17.858 --> 00:43:18.098
you know,
728
00:43:18.538 --> 00:43:20.478
concordant with their skills and abilities,
729
00:43:21.039 --> 00:43:21.379
then that's,
730
00:43:21.499 --> 00:43:21.819
I think,
731
00:43:21.899 --> 00:43:25.860
going to free people to be a lot more innovative and take more risks,
732
00:43:25.880 --> 00:43:27.780
which ultimately is very good for economic growth.
733
00:43:27.781 --> 00:43:27.981
In fact,
734
00:43:28.021 --> 00:43:29.581
basic income is one of the key things that actually...
735
00:43:29.881 --> 00:43:46.486
unites left the right a lot of libertarians are very keen on basic income just as there are people who would describe themselves as socialists so i think i think basic income is a big one um i mean i describe all sorts of things that could be done in the book um and
736
00:43:46.487 --> 00:43:56.349
i don't want people to misunderstand that chapter this that was a utopia that i think will happen but more of the full experiment about what could happen in terms of perfectionism if
737
00:43:56.729 --> 00:44:16.260
society was organized in a slightly different way and will we need perfectionism to get by would we need perfectionism to survive in in in our jobs and so forth um and uh and so yeah that's that's why i wanted to finish on that on a more big picture because i think perfectionism is really a societal problem rather than in due joy i
738
00:44:16.261 --> 00:44:25.145
can concur this is not a cozy uh blanket of a read in fact as my partner saw me reading it as we prepared for the podcast he said about time
739
00:44:25.965 --> 00:44:27.287
That's what I'm saying when I'm reading this book.
740
00:44:28.550 --> 00:44:30.393
But you've kind of been talking on this topic,
741
00:44:30.473 --> 00:44:30.733
Thomas,
742
00:44:30.793 --> 00:44:31.074
about,
743
00:44:31.454 --> 00:44:31.695
you know,
744
00:44:31.915 --> 00:44:33.798
the importance of redefining success then.
745
00:44:33.858 --> 00:44:37.645
So what could or should a healthier definition of success look like?
746
00:44:38.749 --> 00:44:41.910
at the individual level or at the organizational or societal level?
747
00:44:42.930 --> 00:44:43.170
I mean,
748
00:44:43.991 --> 00:44:44.391
look,
749
00:44:44.931 --> 00:44:47.792
success is ultimately about progress,
750
00:44:47.832 --> 00:44:50.013
but progress doesn't have to be measured in units of GDP.
751
00:44:51.733 --> 00:44:53.554
Progress can be measured in all sorts of other units.
752
00:44:53.574 --> 00:44:55.554
It could be measured in how healthy a population is,
753
00:44:56.435 --> 00:44:56.675
you know,
754
00:44:56.695 --> 00:44:57.755
our life expectancy.
755
00:44:57.855 --> 00:45:03.437
It could be measured in levels of happiness or satisfaction or well-being.
756
00:45:03.438 --> 00:45:04.117
It could be measured...
757
00:45:04.397 --> 00:45:05.358
in all sorts of,
758
00:45:05.378 --> 00:45:05.618
you know,
759
00:45:05.678 --> 00:45:07.219
community markers around,
760
00:45:07.220 --> 00:45:07.400
you know,
761
00:45:07.440 --> 00:45:09.021
how robust and resilient our community is.
762
00:45:09.141 --> 00:45:10.442
There's all sorts of,
763
00:45:10.562 --> 00:45:10.802
you know,
764
00:45:10.862 --> 00:45:18.969
measures that we could take in progress that have got nothing to do with material outcomes or how fast or how well we're growing or developing.
765
00:45:18.970 --> 00:45:21.951
They've got everything to do with what's important to us humans.
766
00:45:23.212 --> 00:45:23.393
And,
767
00:45:23.653 --> 00:45:23.913
you know,
768
00:45:23.914 --> 00:45:24.193
as I said,
769
00:45:24.213 --> 00:45:24.874
I'm a humanist,
770
00:45:24.894 --> 00:45:25.835
so I believe that,
771
00:45:25.915 --> 00:45:26.155
you know,
772
00:45:26.156 --> 00:45:29.277
we are intrinsically wired to love each other,
773
00:45:29.438 --> 00:45:32.160
to build social community and connection,
774
00:45:32.260 --> 00:45:33.421
to find purpose.
775
00:45:34.137 --> 00:45:41.083
and meaning and modern society is almost,
776
00:45:41.084 --> 00:45:50.991
it's extremely alienating of those needs or can be extremely alienating of those needs if all we're worried about is the transactional value of ourselves,
777
00:45:51.411 --> 00:45:53.173
how we project ourselves over other people,
778
00:45:53.174 --> 00:45:54.013
how much money we make,
779
00:45:54.053 --> 00:45:55.575
what our status is and all the rest of it.
780
00:45:56.976 --> 00:45:57.276
And so,
781
00:45:57.516 --> 00:45:57.737
you know,
782
00:45:57.738 --> 00:45:58.537
an individual level,
783
00:45:58.757 --> 00:46:01.800
I think we perform better when we do have a sense of meaning and purpose.
784
00:46:02.020 --> 00:46:02.661
That's a nuts
785
00:46:03.465 --> 00:46:14.833
And that's why I would encourage people to pursue their passions and do subjects and the areas of work that they have a lot of intrinsic motivation for.
786
00:46:14.873 --> 00:46:16.374
That's the same with organisations,
787
00:46:16.694 --> 00:46:16.935
you know,
788
00:46:17.135 --> 00:46:20.557
giving people purpose and meaning in the work as well as,
789
00:46:20.558 --> 00:46:20.757
you know,
790
00:46:20.797 --> 00:46:23.499
those material benefits are really important.
791
00:46:23.619 --> 00:46:24.580
Giving them the autonomy,
792
00:46:24.700 --> 00:46:25.961
showing that you trust them to,
793
00:46:27.322 --> 00:46:27.582
you know,
794
00:46:27.842 --> 00:46:29.463
perform their duties competently.
795
00:46:29.483 --> 00:46:29.704
You know,
796
00:46:29.724 --> 00:46:31.525
all these things are really important for.
797
00:46:31.745 --> 00:46:50.218
for a sense of happiness and well-being and then at a societal level as well as i said you know focusing more on human development indicators as opposed to economic development indicators i think is important and i believe that if you could do that you also get the economic benefits too because a healthier happier society is also more predictable so
798
00:46:50.418 --> 00:47:01.205
i agree with you thomas but some real high performers some of whom are really famous at the top of their industry you know titans of industry top of their game they're gonna fear or they're going to...
799
00:47:02.197 --> 00:47:29.993
combat you by saying letting go of some perfectionism is going to make them or their organization less successful or their team less winning what would you say to them well i would i mean i would say i would say to them uh well there's many ways you could tackle this like you can look at the data and you could say that perfectionism doesn't it isn't linked to success so what you're seeing in your own world is survivor bias right you're you're seeing the very top and the people at the very top of
800
00:47:30.013 --> 00:47:35.015
have gone through some selection process tell you they're perfectionistic that they have these excessively high goals or they work you know
801
00:47:35.555 --> 00:47:55.304
13 hours a day 14 hours a day and therefore that must be what made them successful when there are so many other factors right luck circumstance uh yeah the family background you know if you're a sports person genetics right so many factors that are important to success beyond that you know that those perfectionistic behaviors but that's the first work,
802
00:47:55.584 --> 00:47:56.345
you might tackle it.
803
00:47:57.385 --> 00:47:59.966
But whether that would hold any water for these individuals,
804
00:48:00.006 --> 00:48:00.447
I don't know.
805
00:48:00.527 --> 00:48:02.207
But that's probably one of the ways I'll tackle it.
806
00:48:02.548 --> 00:48:03.908
Another way I'll tackle it is that,
807
00:48:04.048 --> 00:48:06.489
why does it have to be that way?
808
00:48:06.750 --> 00:48:06.970
Like,
809
00:48:06.971 --> 00:48:08.150
if you go to the continent,
810
00:48:08.570 --> 00:48:08.811
right,
811
00:48:09.871 --> 00:48:11.372
and you look at the growth rates in Europe,
812
00:48:11.412 --> 00:48:13.033
they're way lower than the US.
813
00:48:13.753 --> 00:48:14.433
And people say,
814
00:48:14.493 --> 00:48:14.673
well,
815
00:48:14.693 --> 00:48:15.014
you know,
816
00:48:15.034 --> 00:48:16.054
there's something wrong with Europe,
817
00:48:16.055 --> 00:48:16.654
what they're doing,
818
00:48:16.655 --> 00:48:16.894
you know,
819
00:48:16.954 --> 00:48:17.395
they're lazy,
820
00:48:17.415 --> 00:48:17.595
yada,
821
00:48:17.635 --> 00:48:17.775
yada,
822
00:48:17.795 --> 00:48:17.955
yada.
823
00:48:17.995 --> 00:48:20.716
But maybe they just don't want to work themselves 30 hours a day.
824
00:48:20.816 --> 00:48:21.957
Maybe they don't.
825
00:48:22.417 --> 00:48:24.918
Maybe they value other things other than productivity.
826
00:48:24.998 --> 00:48:26.659
Maybe they value time in their communities.
827
00:48:26.739 --> 00:48:28.279
Maybe they value time with their families.
828
00:48:29.140 --> 00:48:37.883
Maybe they value giving their productive energies to things that are important for the broader society rather than just their employer.
829
00:48:38.904 --> 00:48:39.584
And my question is,
830
00:48:39.624 --> 00:48:40.324
what's wrong with that?
831
00:48:41.205 --> 00:48:42.085
Why is that a problem?
832
00:48:42.145 --> 00:48:51.549
Why is the European philosophy that perhaps sacrifices economic growth and productivity for more harmony in their broader lives?
833
00:48:51.909 --> 00:48:53.009
Why is that a bad thing?
834
00:48:53.070 --> 00:48:53.410
Why are we,
835
00:48:53.490 --> 00:48:53.830
because,
836
00:48:54.050 --> 00:48:55.390
and the reason why is because we see it in very,
837
00:48:55.711 --> 00:48:55.951
you know,
838
00:48:56.391 --> 00:48:57.731
simplistic terms around,
839
00:48:57.751 --> 00:48:57.992
you know,
840
00:48:58.052 --> 00:48:59.452
it's only about the economics.
841
00:48:59.932 --> 00:49:00.372
But actually,
842
00:49:00.412 --> 00:49:00.653
you know,
843
00:49:00.793 --> 00:49:02.793
being a human is much broader than just that.
844
00:49:03.174 --> 00:49:04.734
So I'd probably tackle it in those two ways.
845
00:49:04.735 --> 00:49:06.095
But whether that holds any water with them,
846
00:49:06.155 --> 00:49:06.555
I don't know,
847
00:49:06.556 --> 00:49:08.936
because I haven't interacted with these individuals and I'm not really sure.
848
00:49:08.937 --> 00:49:10.637
I'm not really sure
849
00:49:11.017 --> 00:49:12.017
I'll win the argument.
850
00:49:12.397 --> 00:49:13.218
They're not ready for you.
851
00:49:13.278 --> 00:49:13.978
They're not ready for you,
852
00:49:13.998 --> 00:49:14.278
Thomas.
853
00:49:15.839 --> 00:49:16.239
Thomas,
854
00:49:16.859 --> 00:49:17.760
unfortunately,
855
00:49:17.761 --> 00:49:18.420
and sadly,
856
00:49:18.520 --> 00:49:21.121
we are at the end of this conversation,
857
00:49:21.201 --> 00:49:21.341
but
858
00:49:22.102 --> 00:49:27.388
I would like to ask you three final questions.
859
00:49:27.928 --> 00:49:28.329
First,
860
00:49:29.090 --> 00:49:33.515
one piece of advice to someone struggling with perfectionism.
861
00:49:33.915 --> 00:49:35.537
How to help him?
862
00:49:37.940 --> 00:49:38.120
Wow.
863
00:49:38.632 --> 00:49:44.994
One piece of advice.
864
00:49:46.774 --> 00:49:49.275
I think I would say,
865
00:49:49.335 --> 00:49:52.156
there's a lot of specific advice behind this big piece of advice,
866
00:49:52.196 --> 00:49:56.177
but the main thing is to try as much as you can to let things go.
867
00:49:58.498 --> 00:50:06.360
The thing that's most inhibiting about perfectionism is it just doesn't let us move forward paradoxically for the reasons we talked about.
868
00:50:07.212 --> 00:50:10.094
And sometimes you just have to,
869
00:50:10.334 --> 00:50:13.396
you just have to recognize that it's never going to be perfect,
870
00:50:13.536 --> 00:50:15.258
that you cannot possibly make,
871
00:50:15.478 --> 00:50:15.718
you know,
872
00:50:15.818 --> 00:50:16.899
think your work perfect.
873
00:50:16.900 --> 00:50:18.140
You cannot make yourself perfect.
874
00:50:18.260 --> 00:50:19.340
Just an impossibility.
875
00:50:20.161 --> 00:50:21.982
And so black things go,
876
00:50:22.362 --> 00:50:25.064
like put your work out into the world,
877
00:50:25.204 --> 00:50:25.385
right?
878
00:50:25.525 --> 00:50:26.665
Do your presentation,
879
00:50:26.866 --> 00:50:28.727
go to your boss and ask for your promotion,
880
00:50:28.867 --> 00:50:29.948
put the report out there,
881
00:50:30.248 --> 00:50:31.569
write the book and publish it.
882
00:50:32.169 --> 00:50:32.389
Okay.
883
00:50:32.690 --> 00:50:33.510
At some levels,
884
00:50:33.570 --> 00:50:34.991
you just got to let yourself,
885
00:50:35.131 --> 00:50:36.112
give yourself the permission to.
886
00:50:36.352 --> 00:50:57.418
put something out there and know that it's going to be received badly or well or whatever or indifferently but just knowing that the mere act of moving forward the mere act of producing something that you think is going to help other people is the most important thing um and so that's probably the biggest piece of advice let
887
00:50:57.438 --> 00:51:04.900
it just get it out there you know don't be afraid feel the fear and do it anyway i think it's probably the best philosophy for perfection okay
888
00:51:05.160 --> 00:51:05.800
Thanks a lot.
889
00:51:05.960 --> 00:51:06.401
Second,
890
00:51:07.141 --> 00:51:08.021
last question,
891
00:51:08.041 --> 00:51:08.801
I would say.
892
00:51:11.042 --> 00:51:15.524
Do you see the perfectionist culture identifying,
893
00:51:16.104 --> 00:51:21.026
or do you think we are reaching a tipping point where change is possible?
894
00:51:21.267 --> 00:51:22.827
Give us some hope,
895
00:51:23.047 --> 00:51:23.547
please.
896
00:51:24.988 --> 00:51:26.369
I think there are some good signs.
897
00:51:27.649 --> 00:51:29.890
Young people in particular seem to have,
898
00:51:32.591 --> 00:51:34.612
I don't think we give them enough credit for...
899
00:51:35.116 --> 00:51:40.020
being aware of their environment and how society actually,
900
00:51:40.500 --> 00:51:40.740
you know,
901
00:51:40.820 --> 00:51:42.421
particularly when it comes to social media at this moment,
902
00:51:42.441 --> 00:51:44.343
there's a massive moral panic around social media.
903
00:51:44.363 --> 00:51:45.623
But I think when you speak to young people,
904
00:51:46.224 --> 00:51:49.226
they know all this stuff that older people are fretting about.
905
00:51:49.246 --> 00:51:52.468
They realize it's not the healthiest place for them to be.
906
00:51:53.089 --> 00:52:01.314
And they do have safeguards that they themselves impose on their engagement with social media to make sure that it doesn't run away with them.
907
00:52:02.115 --> 00:52:03.316
And by the way,
908
00:52:04.764 --> 00:52:09.308
There's a broader context to the anxiety crisis beyond just social media,
909
00:52:09.309 --> 00:52:10.469
but that's for another discussion.
910
00:52:12.130 --> 00:52:12.451
And so
911
00:52:12.851 --> 00:52:13.952
I think in young people,
912
00:52:14.312 --> 00:52:18.776
I see green shoes of hope because I think that they do get this deep down.
913
00:52:19.277 --> 00:52:27.143
And I think that they have a slightly different way of living or a slightly different expectation of the way of living that can look like laziness,
914
00:52:27.604 --> 00:52:32.048
that can look a little bit like they're a bit more aloof or whatever.
915
00:52:32.612 --> 00:52:33.152
But actually,
916
00:52:33.212 --> 00:52:39.896
I think maybe they're just taking back control of their lives and they're prioritizing areas that bring them fulfillment and joy.
917
00:52:39.936 --> 00:52:41.977
And I think if there's any green shoots of hope,
918
00:52:41.978 --> 00:52:47.360
it's probably in young people's attitudes towards work and consumption,
919
00:52:47.420 --> 00:52:48.921
which I think is slightly different to their parents.
920
00:52:51.303 --> 00:52:51.763
Last,
921
00:52:52.123 --> 00:52:52.563
Thomas,
922
00:52:52.884 --> 00:52:54.064
what's next for you?
923
00:52:54.344 --> 00:53:00.668
Are you working on any new research or project related to this topic or other topic?
924
00:53:01.576 --> 00:53:02.717
Yeah,
925
00:53:02.857 --> 00:53:08.481
so we've got a big study coming out that takes a broader look at perfectionism.
926
00:53:08.501 --> 00:53:13.705
And one of the things I was really interested in was what's happening to perfectionistic kinds of thinking,
927
00:53:13.745 --> 00:53:15.647
cognition among young people.
928
00:53:15.648 --> 00:53:18.869
And we're seeing a lot of concern over mistakes increase,
929
00:53:19.029 --> 00:53:20.530
just like social subscription.
930
00:53:20.531 --> 00:53:28.316
We're seeing a lot of indecisiveness and fear of failure increase among young people.
931
00:53:28.536 --> 00:53:46.111
doubts about their actions we're also seeing that increase so we've done a lot big you know 20 year cohort we're looking at these perfectionistic four places which are also on the rise among young people so we're building out a broader picture of uh the way in which young people think and feel and how it's changing over the years uh
932
00:53:46.112 --> 00:53:57.280
so that's the next big study that's coming through hopefully that'll be published soon i hope to write something uh in a few years time on this idea this concept of tyranny of could because i think that's a them.
933
00:53:57.500 --> 00:54:13.784
a very uh um uh fruitful area of uh psychological exploration in terms of you know uh young people's uh the way that they view the world and optimization and maximization and all that sort of stuff so probably
934
00:54:13.804 --> 00:54:26.148
do something there or maybe think about doing something there so but at this moment in time you know i'm i'm uh i've also got a young family so i'm trying to palette stuff as well um but that's that's for them up to the next period right and i so agree Ruthie Thomas,
935
00:54:26.149 --> 00:54:26.968
this idea of kind of
936
00:54:28.004 --> 00:54:31.131
The world tells you you could and be limitless,
937
00:54:31.291 --> 00:54:35.060
and of course we are limited animals.
938
00:54:36.084 --> 00:54:37.325
So thanks so much for joining us,
939
00:54:37.326 --> 00:54:37.625
Thomas,
940
00:54:38.466 --> 00:54:39.747
for being here on the Be Good podcast.
941
00:54:39.767 --> 00:54:41.668
Is there anything you'd like to leave our listeners with?
942
00:54:42.169 --> 00:54:46.552
A last piece of advice or where they can find out more about your work and where to find you and follow you?
943
00:54:48.013 --> 00:54:48.774
Last piece of advice.
944
00:54:49.554 --> 00:54:51.736
Always don't need to just play yourself to anyone.
945
00:54:51.737 --> 00:54:53.297
You are enough as you are.
946
00:54:54.258 --> 00:54:57.820
And that's a universal human truth.
947
00:54:58.901 --> 00:55:00.482
Where can you find stuff about me?
948
00:55:00.763 --> 00:55:01.723
I've got a website,
949
00:55:01.783 --> 00:55:02.524
thomascurran.com.
950
00:55:02.584 --> 00:55:03.264
begood.co.uk.
951
00:55:03.645 --> 00:55:05.205
So everything that I'm doing is on there.
952
00:55:05.206 --> 00:55:06.486
And if you want to reach out or contact,
953
00:55:06.506 --> 00:55:07.607
or if you do read the book,
954
00:55:08.547 --> 00:55:09.568
I'd love to hear from readers.
955
00:55:09.569 --> 00:55:10.588
So do reach out.
956
00:55:10.648 --> 00:55:15.411
I really like to find out how people receive the book.
957
00:55:15.491 --> 00:55:17.192
So don't be shy.
958
00:55:18.192 --> 00:55:18.573
Perfect.
959
00:55:19.193 --> 00:55:21.354
So that is it for this episode of Be Good.
960
00:55:21.534 --> 00:55:22.995
There is never enough time,
961
00:55:23.115 --> 00:55:25.116
but let us know what you thought about this episode.
962
00:55:25.636 --> 00:55:28.218
Find us on X at BDNUG Consulting.
963
00:55:28.678 --> 00:55:29.859
Until the next time,
964
00:55:30.559 --> 00:55:32.300
remember to be good and
965
00:55:32.652 --> 00:55:33.395
Be good to yourself.
966
00:55:33.696 --> 00:55:33.877
Thanks,
967
00:55:33.917 --> 00:55:34.158
Thomas.
968
00:55:34.760 --> 00:55:35.322
Be Good,
969
00:55:35.603 --> 00:55:37.812
a podcast by the BVA Nudge Unit.