Stephan Meier - The Employee Advantage

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Hi and welcome to this episode of Be Good,
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brought to you by BVNH Consulting,
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a global consultancy specializing in the application of behavioral science for successful behavior change.
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Every month,
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we get to speak with a leader in the field of behavioral science,
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psychology,
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and neuroscience in order to get to know more about them,
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their work,
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and its application to emerging issues.
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My name is Eric Singler.
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Managing Director of the BVA Family,
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Founder and CEO of BVA Nudge Consulting.
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And with me is my talented colleague,
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Suzanne Kirkendall,
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CEO of BVA Nudge Consulting,
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North America.
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Hi,
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Suzanne.
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Hi,
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Eric.
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Thanks very much.
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I'm very excited to be introducing today's guest,
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Professor Stephan Meyer.
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Stephan is the James P.
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Gorman Professor of Business Strategy and the Chair of the Management Division at Columbia Business School.
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Previously,
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he worked as a senior economist at the Center for Behavioral Economics and Decision Making at the Federal Reserve Bank.
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He's also taught courses on strategic interactions and economic policy at Harvard University and the University of Zurich.
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Professor Meyer focuses on issues at the intersection of behavioral economics,
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business strategy,
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and the future of work.
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He's recently published his first book,
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The Employee Advantage,
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How Putting Workers First Helps Business Thrive,
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which will be at the end of this month.
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the focus of our conversation today.
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His work has been published in the leading academic journals,
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including the American Economic Review and Management Science,
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and he's been profiled by the press such as The Economist,
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Wall Street Journal,
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Financial Times,
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New York Times,
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and the Los Angeles Times.
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Stefan,
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welcome to the Be Good podcast.
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Thank you so much for having me,
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Suzanne and Eric.
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It's a pleasure.
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Thank you,
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Suzanne.
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And
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Stéphane, thank you so much again for being with us today for this episode of Be Good.
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Before talking about your amazing book,
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The Employee Advantage,
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we would like to know a little more about you and your career.
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I think you earned an
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MA in History,
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Economics and Political Science from the University of
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Zurich in Switzerland.
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and then completed a doctorate in economics at the same institution.
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Could you tell us about how you came to be interested in behavioral science and later,
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I think,
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in the human side of strategy?
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Thank you.
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Yeah,
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thank you so much,
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Eric.
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Yeah,
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I actually have a master's in history.
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But while I had the master in history,
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you know,
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my first minor was economics,
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and I did more and more economics.
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I still finished the master in history,
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but did my master thesis already in economics.
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It was about whether economists are selfish or not,
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and whether the economics training selects selfish people or whether it indoctrinates them.
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So the more you learn that humans should be selfish and rational,
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do you become like that?
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Or does it attract already people that are a little bit more selfish?
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It turns out it's not much selection,
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not much indoctrination.
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It's much more selection.
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And then I started to do a PhD in economics.
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And
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Weilow is really hoping and those models,
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economic models.
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really helped me to make sense of the world because they have very clear predictions how humans behave.
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But just by introspection,
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I knew that it's almost,
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I mean,
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either I'm the exception or others are making mistakes left and right as I do and not only care about their own monetary payoffs.
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And so that's how I started to be more interested in behavioral economics at that time.
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Behavioral economics was like a new growing field.
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Zurich actually had a couple of very influential economists working on those topics.
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And so that's how I became much more interested in it than my PhD on behavioral.
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So my thesis,
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PhD thesis was the economics of non-selfish behavior.
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So what actually motivates people beyond money to help,
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to collaborate.
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when it is not necessarily in their monetary best interest to do so.
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After that,
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I then started to work at the Fed because I wanted to have also a policy impact.
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And the Federal Reserve back at that time was starting the Center of Behavioral Economics.
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I was the first economist who was hired there.
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And it was a really exciting time to...
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Think about how can we imply psychology and economics or behavioral economics in a more policy field.
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The Federal Reserve Bank has a lot of impact and is populated by brilliant economists who are trained in very traditional classical economics.
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And instilling this behavioral aspect was very exciting.
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For me,
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I'm not a monetary economist.
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I also figured out the impact I can have on monetary policy is limited because
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I know basically nothing about it.
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And so then while I was at the Fed in Boston,
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I also taught a class at the Kennedy School.
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And then I really got interested in professional schools.
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And so that's how I ended up in a business school.
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where I thought I can really combine kind of the research aspect to having impact on my students and also learning from leaders.
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You know,
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they're all,
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my MBA students are professionals.
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They all worked a couple of years and my exec ed participants,
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you know,
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they're leaders in their field.
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And so I can learn from them as well.
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When I started at the business school,
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I started teaching strategy,
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business strategy,
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classic business strategy,
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you know,
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like
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Should Walmart go upscale?
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Should PepsiCo get rid of their snacks division and focus only on beverages?
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Does it make sense that Disney has a streaming platform or should they stick to,
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you know,
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just having their movies in hotels?
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And in that,
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there is a lot of economics,
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obviously,
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like competition,
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you know,
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how do you differentiate?
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And what is interesting,
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so
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I then...
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Went into the classroom and taught about this classic strategy.
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Went to my office and did research on like,
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what motivates people beyond money?
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Like,
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how can we incentivize them to do?
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Why do they make mistakes?
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And then go into the classroom and teach like,
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people are rational,
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firms are optimizing.
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And only much later in my career,
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I kind of made the connections between the two much more.
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In fact,
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it needed a pandemic.
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for me to realize,
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and
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I should have realized that much earlier,
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but I only did then,
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that it put like a spotlight on what doesn't work well at work,
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and that it's all about humans.
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And I know a lot about humans,
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and I know a lot about organizations when I teach business strategies.
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Then I combined it to this human side of strategy and thought,
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you know,
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there are humans in organizations,
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those who make strategy,
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you know,
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the executive team.
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The customers are humans.
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So how to actually figure out how competition works when people who buy the product make some systematic mistakes or have certain biases.
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And then obviously the employees are humans as well.
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And if we don't understand kind of what makes them tick or work at work,
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I think it's really difficult to like define a good strategy that is aligned with those motives.
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So that.
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Maybe too long of an answer,
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but that's kind of my arch from like being a historian or starting history to like getting into behavioral science and behavioral economics and then combine it with what I do now in the business school about like,
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you know,
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what businesses should do in competing against others and creating like amazing products and services.
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Could you share with us any mentors that had a particularly strong influence on you?
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researchers or people who have played an influential role in your professional career.
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Yeah,
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I think like one person who really was really important for me in this journey was my supervisor,
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Bruno S.
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Frey.
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So he is a economist at
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Zurich who
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I worked with and he was kind of my mentor.
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And he was very unconventional always,
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you know.
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He is an economist by training,
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but he always wanted to see what the boundaries of economics is,
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how to think about differently.
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And he wrote actually early on work on how incentives backfire.
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And then later he worked a lot on happiness research.
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And he was very influential for me because he pushed me and all the other PhD students he had.
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to think out of the box,
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do very ambitious projects,
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and not be constrained by what standard economics is telling us we should do or how humans should behave.
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That was extremely influential for me.
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I had another,
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I only met him much later,
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an economist who is in San Diego,
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James Andreoni.
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He works a lot on altruism.
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pro-social behavior,
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donations.
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And
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I met him much later,
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but my PhD was like,
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I cited probably...
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Every single of his papers,
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I loved the work he was doing.
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And later I actually met him and he became a dear friend.
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And he also had a great influence of kind of how,
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what type of work I would do.
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Amazing.
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So as we mentioned at the beginning,
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we would really like to talk about your fantastic book,
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The Employee Advantage.
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Before we get into the nitty gritty details,
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we'd like to ask some bigger picture questions.
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So first of all,
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could you tell us why did you write this book?
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Yeah.
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So as I mentioned,
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somehow the pandemic changed something for me,
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how I thought about work and how we have to change work.
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And,
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you know,
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part of what I start also the book is kind of this low engagement.
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During the pandemic,
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it became pretty clear,
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you know,
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that people were not so happy at work.
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You know,
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they were great.
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great resignations and people quite quitting and people were thinking about like is this really all I want to do in my work and it became clear that we're not doing that great of a job in actually making sure that our employees are
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engaged and motivated now that was not just a pandemic it was actually if you look at engagement surveys it it was it was low for many many years and
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So something we're not,
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we're just not doing well.
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And then I had this conversation with the executives I teach.
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I always say,
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well,
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you know,
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my employees are the most important asset.
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And like,
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this is the most important thing I had.
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And I was like,
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well,
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if that's true,
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you're either not doing a good job in making sure that you care about them.
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And you might not know,
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or you're just lying.
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Or you just really don't put.
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the workers first.
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So that's then when I combined in order to actually put workers first,
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you need to understand what motivates them in the first place.
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And so that's kind of when I became very,
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very passionate about like solving,
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I think,
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an important problem with the knowledge that I have about like what actually motivates human beings and how to then translate this into like actionable strategies for leaders to implement in their organization.
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So,
267
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of course,
268
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there are a lot of great strategies and insights that we'll get into.
269
00:12:57.938 --> 00:13:04.140
But if you were to give the one big headline or the one key takeaway that you want your readers to get from this book,
270
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what would that be?
271
00:13:06.441 --> 00:13:06.822
Yeah,
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that's a hard one.
273
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It's like choosing among your favorite children.
274
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But I think like one thing that goes almost through all of those strategies are like when we have to involve.
275
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and listen to our employees and by doing so also empowering them as well.
276
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And I think many now think,
277
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well,
278
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aren't we doing that already?
279
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And like,
280
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I don't think we do.
281
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So when you go to a marketing executive,
282
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you know,
283
00:13:43.918 --> 00:13:44.238
and say,
284
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is it a good idea if you would ask your customer once a year how they're doing?
285
00:13:50.143 --> 00:13:50.383
You know,
286
00:13:50.443 --> 00:13:51.324
they would all laugh.
287
00:13:52.372 --> 00:13:53.072
their asses off.
288
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It's like,
289
00:13:53.414 --> 00:13:54.193
of course not.
290
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We need constant input and feedback.
291
00:13:57.935 --> 00:13:59.776
And that's how we actually get better.
292
00:14:00.697 --> 00:14:01.077
In fact,
293
00:14:01.157 --> 00:14:01.737
Bezos,
294
00:14:03.998 --> 00:14:06.020
the founder of Amazon,
295
00:14:07.200 --> 00:14:09.261
who's very customer-centric,
296
00:14:09.822 --> 00:14:10.262
once said,
297
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the good thing about the customer is they're always dissatisfied.
298
00:14:13.984 --> 00:14:15.004
So we always,
299
00:14:15.845 --> 00:14:16.565
and it's so good,
300
00:14:16.625 --> 00:14:17.726
even if we do the best,
301
00:14:17.766 --> 00:14:19.267
they're so dissatisfied.
302
00:14:19.268 --> 00:14:20.307
What he meant is like,
303
00:14:20.327 --> 00:14:21.228
we can always improve.
304
00:14:21.760 --> 00:14:22.681
If they're dissatisfied,
305
00:14:22.701 --> 00:14:23.301
we can do better.
306
00:14:24.302 --> 00:14:24.482
Now,
307
00:14:24.902 --> 00:14:26.603
think about what we do with our employees.
308
00:14:26.643 --> 00:14:27.323
We ask them,
309
00:14:27.844 --> 00:14:31.886
most firms ask them once a year in some engagement survey how they're doing.
310
00:14:31.986 --> 00:14:35.748
They're ignoring those results most of the time.
311
00:14:35.888 --> 00:14:40.431
Every employee knows this and so doesn't participate in those surveys in the first place.
312
00:14:41.291 --> 00:14:44.333
And if you would tell them what is really good about the employees,
313
00:14:44.353 --> 00:14:45.714
they're always dissatisfied.
314
00:14:46.715 --> 00:14:48.976
Nobody would agree with that.
315
00:14:49.116 --> 00:14:51.097
that's exactly how we can move forward.
316
00:14:51.417 --> 00:14:51.998
Listening,
317
00:14:52.578 --> 00:14:56.960
getting them involved and empowering them to making some decision.
318
00:14:57.120 --> 00:15:09.347
Almost all of the strategies that I talk about with those different motivators have part of involving employees in the process or the workforce in them.
319
00:15:09.387 --> 00:15:11.708
So that's kind of the on the high level,
320
00:15:12.509 --> 00:15:13.389
involving,
321
00:15:13.950 --> 00:15:18.412
listening and empowering is a very important.
322
00:15:18.512 --> 00:15:22.140
part of all those strategies to become employee-centric.
323
00:15:22.667 --> 00:15:22.887
Yeah,
324
00:15:23.148 --> 00:15:26.750
your employees as customers is a really interesting analogy,
325
00:15:26.811 --> 00:15:27.111
I think,
326
00:15:27.171 --> 00:15:28.772
for people to start to reframe.
327
00:15:29.413 --> 00:15:32.455
What would you say are the main benefits of putting employees first?
328
00:15:32.495 --> 00:15:32.976
How does that,
329
00:15:33.316 --> 00:15:33.556
you know,
330
00:15:33.976 --> 00:15:36.398
relate to organizational performance?
331
00:15:36.659 --> 00:15:38.660
What kind of examples could you give us from the literature?
332
00:15:39.121 --> 00:15:39.321
Yeah,
333
00:15:39.961 --> 00:15:40.122
yeah,
334
00:15:40.222 --> 00:15:41.002
that's a good point.
335
00:15:41.042 --> 00:15:41.323
Because,
336
00:15:41.623 --> 00:15:41.883
you know,
337
00:15:41.884 --> 00:15:42.263
in the end,
338
00:15:42.303 --> 00:15:45.166
my book is actually about like organizations as well.
339
00:15:45.266 --> 00:15:45.506
You know,
340
00:15:46.046 --> 00:15:46.267
I mean,
341
00:15:46.307 --> 00:15:46.887
there are,
342
00:15:47.928 --> 00:15:49.930
you might believe that it's a good thing anyway,
343
00:15:50.010 --> 00:15:51.531
and the right thing to do to put.
344
00:15:52.091 --> 00:15:52.892
employees first,
345
00:15:52.932 --> 00:15:57.816
but what I really argue is that it's going to have benefit for the organization.
346
00:15:57.856 --> 00:16:03.381
I think the main benefits are like productivity and engagement really goes up.
347
00:16:04.382 --> 00:16:05.202
So that's one.
348
00:16:06.323 --> 00:16:07.625
And in times where like,
349
00:16:08.205 --> 00:16:08.485
you know,
350
00:16:08.486 --> 00:16:10.387
we actually want to do more with less,
351
00:16:10.467 --> 00:16:10.727
you know,
352
00:16:10.767 --> 00:16:14.370
that's kind of how to do a little bit more with less and people are more engaged or not.
353
00:16:14.811 --> 00:16:17.173
The second is it needs to innovation.
354
00:16:18.214 --> 00:16:18.454
You know,
355
00:16:18.474 --> 00:16:19.555
in a time when
356
00:16:20.059 --> 00:16:21.861
We have to innovate constantly.
357
00:16:21.901 --> 00:16:24.703
I know buzzwords like agile organizations,
358
00:16:24.983 --> 00:16:25.243
you know,
359
00:16:25.304 --> 00:16:26.665
it's the people who are agile.
360
00:16:26.745 --> 00:16:32.329
So we actually need to have an environment to make our employees agile.
361
00:16:32.810 --> 00:16:34.431
Third is like quit rates go down.
362
00:16:34.591 --> 00:16:35.772
So turnover goes down.
363
00:16:35.812 --> 00:16:37.714
It's a very costly thing to lose,
364
00:16:38.955 --> 00:16:42.738
especially if you want to lose people that you don't want to lose constantly.
365
00:16:42.739 --> 00:16:45.581
And then you need to rehire and train.
366
00:16:46.642 --> 00:16:48.063
And last but not least,
367
00:16:48.363 --> 00:16:51.726
I think it really affects the experience of the customer as well,
368
00:16:51.766 --> 00:16:56.890
especially if the employees have contact with their customers.
369
00:16:57.170 --> 00:16:57.410
You know,
370
00:16:57.430 --> 00:17:05.877
I don't think you can create an atmosphere where the customers are happy if the employees are miserable.
371
00:17:06.898 --> 00:17:14.704
And so one interesting and I think great example in terms of companies is Costco here in the U.S.
372
00:17:16.366 --> 00:17:16.686
You know,
373
00:17:16.706 --> 00:17:17.827
it's a retailer.
374
00:17:18.167 --> 00:17:19.047
competitor to
375
00:17:19.547 --> 00:17:23.789
Walmart or the Sam's Club model in Walmart.
376
00:17:23.829 --> 00:17:28.390
And they're very employee-centric in multiple ways.
377
00:17:29.370 --> 00:17:35.052
But one important one is that they provide like really clear career path.
378
00:17:35.292 --> 00:17:40.253
You start entry level and you kind of know this is your way to go up.
379
00:17:40.313 --> 00:17:42.574
And about more than 90%
380
00:17:43.294 --> 00:17:46.475
of their leadership team is promoted internally.
381
00:17:47.315 --> 00:17:49.057
And then you can see what is the benefit of that.
382
00:17:49.217 --> 00:17:49.477
You know,
383
00:17:49.717 --> 00:17:52.079
like they're not leaving as much.
384
00:17:52.119 --> 00:17:53.701
So turnover is much,
385
00:17:53.761 --> 00:17:58.405
much lower than at other comparable retailers.
386
00:17:58.845 --> 00:18:03.769
The customers are super happy because the employees are very happy.
387
00:18:05.010 --> 00:18:06.051
That then allows,
388
00:18:06.151 --> 00:18:08.013
because the customers are so happy,
389
00:18:08.073 --> 00:18:09.915
they're also more loyal to the brand.
390
00:18:09.935 --> 00:18:11.876
You can introduce more private labels.
391
00:18:12.277 --> 00:18:14.919
Kirkland is the private label that Costco has.
392
00:18:15.279 --> 00:18:16.620
where the margins are much higher,
393
00:18:17.721 --> 00:18:22.645
and the people actually spend more money per square feet than others do.
394
00:18:23.025 --> 00:18:24.347
So there are clear benefits.
395
00:18:24.348 --> 00:18:27.769
You see it in the performance of the organization.
396
00:18:28.890 --> 00:18:30.131
They're just doing much better.
397
00:18:30.692 --> 00:18:34.195
And there are other companies who are able to do that.
398
00:18:34.235 --> 00:18:35.716
There are also studies on that.
399
00:18:35.856 --> 00:18:36.036
Now,
400
00:18:36.437 --> 00:18:37.097
the studies,
401
00:18:38.138 --> 00:18:39.079
as you can imagine,
402
00:18:39.980 --> 00:18:41.581
it's often correlational.
403
00:18:41.701 --> 00:18:43.462
It's not so easy to...
404
00:18:45.424 --> 00:18:50.667
There are many studies to show that happy employees also need better performances,
405
00:18:50.727 --> 00:19:00.933
but causality is sometimes hard to establish because it could also be the amazing companies are easier to,
406
00:19:01.353 --> 00:19:05.195
it's easier for them to be nice to their employees as well.
407
00:19:05.615 --> 00:19:07.697
But I'm not just talking about monitoring.
408
00:19:07.698 --> 00:19:11.479
I talk about being really focused on your employees and thinking about...
409
00:19:11.480 --> 00:19:12.019
I don't know.
410
00:19:12.335 --> 00:19:23.683
We're talking later about those different motivators outside of money that are really important and lead to an engaged workforce and as a result,
411
00:19:23.703 --> 00:19:24.584
a thriving business.
412
00:19:25.384 --> 00:19:27.526
Last question before handing it back to Eric.
413
00:19:27.586 --> 00:19:29.187
You started to allude to it,
414
00:19:29.327 --> 00:19:34.891
but I want to get this common objection out of the way early so people can stay with us.
415
00:19:35.547 --> 00:19:40.350
There is this widespread belief that being employee-centric comes at the expense of profits.
416
00:19:40.530 --> 00:19:43.972
So you either are for the employees or you're for the shareholders,
417
00:19:43.992 --> 00:19:45.913
but you're not going to be able to benefit both.
418
00:19:46.093 --> 00:19:47.234
Why do you think people think that?
419
00:19:47.235 --> 00:19:48.615
And can you rebut that for us?
420
00:19:49.876 --> 00:19:50.176
Well,
421
00:19:51.076 --> 00:19:51.296
yeah,
422
00:19:51.417 --> 00:20:00.982
I think it's a very important mindset shift that needs to happen from what I call in the book kind of this either-or thinking or zero-sum,
423
00:20:01.082 --> 00:20:01.362
you know,
424
00:20:01.422 --> 00:20:02.043
we either...
425
00:20:02.603 --> 00:20:07.344
Either we can be nice to the employees or to the shareholders to like,
426
00:20:07.385 --> 00:20:07.505
no,
427
00:20:08.485 --> 00:20:10.345
what we actually can do is like win,
428
00:20:11.146 --> 00:20:11.346
win,
429
00:20:11.446 --> 00:20:11.706
win.
430
00:20:12.466 --> 00:20:13.826
Why that's the case,
431
00:20:14.007 --> 00:20:16.027
I think part of it has to do with,
432
00:20:16.967 --> 00:20:17.228
you know,
433
00:20:17.268 --> 00:20:18.608
kind of this economic thinking,
434
00:20:18.628 --> 00:20:20.088
why people work or don't work.
435
00:20:20.869 --> 00:20:21.129
You know,
436
00:20:21.209 --> 00:20:22.889
in those economic models,
437
00:20:23.089 --> 00:20:23.289
well,
438
00:20:23.329 --> 00:20:25.090
like people don't like work.
439
00:20:25.902 --> 00:20:27.923
The economic model is like,
440
00:20:28.264 --> 00:20:32.767
I would not do anything because I want to do leisure is what I want to do.
441
00:20:33.868 --> 00:20:34.808
Work is a burden,
442
00:20:34.968 --> 00:20:35.689
it's painful,
443
00:20:36.049 --> 00:20:42.053
and I only do it if I get either controlled to do it or monetary compensated.
444
00:20:42.674 --> 00:20:47.357
And that now leads to a real potential either or.
445
00:20:47.557 --> 00:20:47.837
You know,
446
00:20:47.917 --> 00:20:52.160
if it's like I have to pay me more in order to do more,
447
00:20:52.541 --> 00:20:52.821
you know,
448
00:20:52.881 --> 00:20:54.022
then it's like a bargain.
449
00:20:54.614 --> 00:20:59.457
That I potentially have with somebody on a bazaar to buy a t-shirt.
450
00:20:59.638 --> 00:20:59.898
You know,
451
00:20:59.978 --> 00:21:03.800
I pay you more and that comes out of my,
452
00:21:04.941 --> 00:21:05.221
you know,
453
00:21:05.401 --> 00:21:07.343
happiness or rent or whatever.
454
00:21:07.583 --> 00:21:08.724
Or I pay you less,
455
00:21:08.744 --> 00:21:11.225
that comes out of your margin there.
456
00:21:11.646 --> 00:21:13.907
But I think what we have to think about,
457
00:21:13.908 --> 00:21:14.228
and again,
458
00:21:14.288 --> 00:21:15.388
that's where the customer,
459
00:21:15.729 --> 00:21:16.229
the employees,
460
00:21:16.230 --> 00:21:17.310
the new customer helps.
461
00:21:17.510 --> 00:21:18.490
Think about customers.
462
00:21:19.151 --> 00:21:19.351
Now,
463
00:21:19.731 --> 00:21:23.474
customer centricity is first of all not lowering the price.
464
00:21:24.130 --> 00:21:27.833
Customer centricity is improving the experience of the customer,
465
00:21:28.434 --> 00:21:29.835
making the customer happy.
466
00:21:31.076 --> 00:21:31.897
And as a result,
467
00:21:32.097 --> 00:21:33.538
the businesses are doing better.
468
00:21:34.339 --> 00:21:36.500
And so the same is,
469
00:21:36.640 --> 00:21:37.261
I argue,
470
00:21:37.361 --> 00:21:39.183
and I think is true for employees.
471
00:21:39.723 --> 00:21:42.205
Let's improve the experience the employees have.
472
00:21:42.625 --> 00:21:43.706
Let's make them happier.
473
00:21:44.467 --> 00:21:45.187
And as a result,
474
00:21:45.188 --> 00:21:49.171
the businesses are doing better for those reasons we talked about before.
475
00:21:49.211 --> 00:21:49.491
You know,
476
00:21:49.551 --> 00:21:51.152
turnover goes down and so on.
477
00:21:51.192 --> 00:21:53.034
Innovation goes up and so on and so forth.
478
00:21:54.219 --> 00:21:57.501
So I think we have to really think about this win-win,
479
00:21:58.202 --> 00:22:02.345
how we can actually help our workforce to do their best work.
480
00:22:02.605 --> 00:22:03.466
And as a result,
481
00:22:03.986 --> 00:22:05.948
the organization actually benefits.
482
00:22:08.250 --> 00:22:08.710
Stéphane,
483
00:22:09.031 --> 00:22:14.915
now I think we have a clear idea of your perspective.
484
00:22:15.956 --> 00:22:20.960
We would like now to dive deeper into the details of your book.
485
00:22:21.400 --> 00:22:21.941
And first,
486
00:22:22.161 --> 00:22:23.182
you mentioned that...
487
00:22:24.082 --> 00:22:31.945
many employees worldwide are not engaged in their work or their organization.
488
00:22:32.385 --> 00:22:37.306
Could you tell us more about this disengagement and why do you think it happens?
489
00:22:38.166 --> 00:22:38.406
Yeah.
490
00:22:39.207 --> 00:22:39.367
Yeah,
491
00:22:39.368 --> 00:22:39.547
I mean,
492
00:22:39.548 --> 00:22:39.927
the number,
493
00:22:39.947 --> 00:22:43.688
if you look at like Gallup surveys about engagement levels,
494
00:22:45.289 --> 00:22:46.969
it looks that in the US,
495
00:22:47.309 --> 00:22:50.030
I think like about 60 something percent.
496
00:22:50.430 --> 00:22:54.173
of employees are disengaged at work or not fully engaged.
497
00:22:54.593 --> 00:22:55.113
Worldwide,
498
00:22:55.133 --> 00:22:58.015
it's even a little higher about that.
499
00:22:58.476 --> 00:23:01.058
You see that also in people who want to quit,
500
00:23:01.198 --> 00:23:02.379
want to change jobs.
501
00:23:03.659 --> 00:23:07.902
I think there was a study just came out about more than 50%
502
00:23:07.903 --> 00:23:08.323
or 60%
503
00:23:09.203 --> 00:23:13.707
of employees actually want to change their job in 2025.
504
00:23:13.727 --> 00:23:15.768
So that shows you that something is not going well.
505
00:23:15.828 --> 00:23:15.948
Now,
506
00:23:15.949 --> 00:23:16.769
the question is like,
507
00:23:16.789 --> 00:23:17.769
what is not going well?
508
00:23:18.230 --> 00:23:18.390
And
509
00:23:18.630 --> 00:23:23.094
I do think what is not going well is we're not putting enough emphasis on,
510
00:23:23.514 --> 00:23:23.795
you know,
511
00:23:25.976 --> 00:23:28.779
what the experience of the employees are.
512
00:23:29.219 --> 00:23:31.601
Because as with customer centricity,
513
00:23:31.841 --> 00:23:32.102
you know,
514
00:23:32.202 --> 00:23:34.163
just saying that you care about the customer,
515
00:23:34.203 --> 00:23:35.465
which of course everybody does,
516
00:23:36.485 --> 00:23:40.569
is not the same than really being obsessed about the customer.
517
00:23:40.949 --> 00:23:42.651
And the same is true for employees.
518
00:23:42.951 --> 00:23:44.192
Just saying that we care,
519
00:23:45.533 --> 00:23:46.394
everybody does that.
520
00:23:47.198 --> 00:23:48.299
I've never met an employee,
521
00:23:49.059 --> 00:23:50.080
an executive that's like,
522
00:23:50.100 --> 00:23:50.300
well,
523
00:23:50.720 --> 00:23:51.321
my employee,
524
00:23:51.381 --> 00:23:52.041
my workforce,
525
00:23:52.061 --> 00:23:52.861
I don't care about them.
526
00:23:53.222 --> 00:23:53.882
Of course they do.
527
00:23:55.143 --> 00:24:07.689
But it's one thing to care and one to actually put the priorities on that and really do the hard work to make sure that the employee experience is better.
528
00:24:08.250 --> 00:24:08.810
And again,
529
00:24:08.870 --> 00:24:09.851
as we talked before,
530
00:24:09.971 --> 00:24:10.231
you know,
531
00:24:10.232 --> 00:24:11.331
it starts with listening,
532
00:24:11.732 --> 00:24:11.972
you know,
533
00:24:12.012 --> 00:24:14.853
actually listening to the employees who are frustrated.
534
00:24:15.133 --> 00:24:16.074
Right.
535
00:24:16.382 --> 00:24:21.263
And understanding why are they frustrated and then change some of the practices,
536
00:24:21.904 --> 00:24:23.284
some of the leadership style.
537
00:24:23.584 --> 00:24:23.844
You know,
538
00:24:23.864 --> 00:24:24.784
what is also hard,
539
00:24:26.025 --> 00:24:29.546
it reflects a little bit on people as the famous saying goes,
540
00:24:29.946 --> 00:24:31.246
people are not leaving jobs,
541
00:24:31.266 --> 00:24:32.326
they're leaving bosses.
542
00:24:33.067 --> 00:24:34.487
And so when you listen,
543
00:24:34.767 --> 00:24:36.668
you will figure out as a leader,
544
00:24:36.908 --> 00:24:37.168
you know,
545
00:24:37.228 --> 00:24:38.508
you're not doing everything right.
546
00:24:39.368 --> 00:24:40.309
That's hard to take,
547
00:24:40.349 --> 00:24:42.069
especially if you made it so far,
548
00:24:42.109 --> 00:24:42.409
you know,
549
00:24:42.449 --> 00:24:44.250
there's big egos as well there.
550
00:24:45.130 --> 00:24:46.230
So you now have to reflect.
551
00:24:46.250 --> 00:24:46.490
And so,
552
00:24:46.910 --> 00:24:47.171
you know,
553
00:24:47.251 --> 00:24:49.431
something I'm not doing right,
554
00:24:50.551 --> 00:24:51.052
I try to,
555
00:24:51.092 --> 00:24:51.732
in the book,
556
00:24:52.172 --> 00:24:53.852
tell a little bit what you can do right.
557
00:24:54.072 --> 00:24:54.333
You know,
558
00:24:55.053 --> 00:24:55.933
what did you miss?
559
00:24:56.633 --> 00:24:58.334
And where should you put more emphasis on?
560
00:24:58.414 --> 00:25:00.874
But if you don't prioritize it,
561
00:25:01.735 --> 00:25:01.975
you know,
562
00:25:01.976 --> 00:25:03.015
it's not just going to happen.
563
00:25:03.475 --> 00:25:04.475
It's going to be hard work,
564
00:25:05.095 --> 00:25:06.216
but I think it's going to pay off.
565
00:25:07.796 --> 00:25:08.236
Stéphane,
566
00:25:08.556 --> 00:25:14.518
we have started to talk about motivation and money.
567
00:25:15.170 --> 00:25:22.090
But you argue that motivation is neither solely about money nor about having
568
00:25:22.970 --> 00:25:25.291
Ping-pong tables in the office.
569
00:25:25.551 --> 00:25:26.031
Regarding,
570
00:25:26.091 --> 00:25:26.392
first,
571
00:25:26.672 --> 00:25:28.893
money as a primary motivator,
572
00:25:29.313 --> 00:25:33.155
what do studies tell us about its effectiveness?
573
00:25:34.115 --> 00:25:34.255
Yeah,
574
00:25:34.375 --> 00:25:38.237
I think it's a very important part and also kind of a mindset shift to think about,
575
00:25:38.277 --> 00:25:38.497
like,
576
00:25:38.498 --> 00:25:38.677
you know,
577
00:25:38.737 --> 00:25:43.059
people are not just working for money.
578
00:25:43.239 --> 00:25:43.399
Now,
579
00:25:43.899 --> 00:25:44.880
money is important.
580
00:25:45.300 --> 00:25:45.560
You know,
581
00:25:45.600 --> 00:25:45.780
like,
582
00:25:47.081 --> 00:25:47.381
I mean,
583
00:25:48.601 --> 00:25:49.582
I don't volunteer.
584
00:25:50.302 --> 00:25:51.843
I also work and get a paycheck.
585
00:25:51.923 --> 00:25:52.743
I care about money.
586
00:25:53.163 --> 00:25:54.264
Money is an important part.
587
00:25:54.864 --> 00:25:57.505
Especially on the lower end of the income distribution,
588
00:25:57.885 --> 00:25:59.606
money is critically important.
589
00:26:01.167 --> 00:26:03.488
If you can't make ends meet,
590
00:26:04.528 --> 00:26:10.390
if you have to worry every day that you don't have enough money if my kid has a dental emergency,
591
00:26:11.271 --> 00:26:12.751
you're not doing your best work.
592
00:26:12.811 --> 00:26:13.432
That's for sure.
593
00:26:13.492 --> 00:26:19.074
You have to increase wages to actually make sure everybody is financially secure.
594
00:26:19.582 --> 00:26:25.305
But there is a level of income then where it just doesn't matter as much anymore.
595
00:26:26.226 --> 00:26:26.406
Where,
596
00:26:26.646 --> 00:26:26.906
you know,
597
00:26:26.907 --> 00:26:28.027
we still care about money,
598
00:26:28.167 --> 00:26:36.071
but like it's like many other things that really motivate people to go forward.
599
00:26:36.151 --> 00:26:36.311
Now,
600
00:26:36.832 --> 00:26:37.312
one of the,
601
00:26:38.132 --> 00:26:38.412
I think,
602
00:26:38.492 --> 00:26:39.133
mistakes,
603
00:26:39.153 --> 00:26:41.814
and that's kind of what I call about ping pong table solutions,
604
00:26:41.834 --> 00:26:43.275
and it's not just ping pong tables.
605
00:26:43.615 --> 00:26:43.855
You know,
606
00:26:43.895 --> 00:26:45.336
it's like free snacks,
607
00:26:45.796 --> 00:26:46.757
yoga classes,
608
00:26:46.917 --> 00:26:47.818
massage thing,
609
00:26:48.038 --> 00:26:48.358
whatever.
610
00:26:49.375 --> 00:26:50.476
wellness programs,
611
00:26:51.517 --> 00:26:51.757
I mean,
612
00:26:52.337 --> 00:26:53.558
I have nothing against them,
613
00:26:53.979 --> 00:27:08.211
but they are not really solving the problem because nobody or very few people would choose to a company that has a ping-pong table or would leave the company because they don't have a ping-pong table.
614
00:27:09.252 --> 00:27:10.193
And what I talk about,
615
00:27:10.433 --> 00:27:11.955
it's also if you think strategy,
616
00:27:13.716 --> 00:27:15.658
if ping-pong tables are the kicker,
617
00:27:16.054 --> 00:27:16.334
You know,
618
00:27:16.614 --> 00:27:19.637
if you have a ping pong table and you would do everything will be amazing,
619
00:27:19.638 --> 00:27:19.837
you know,
620
00:27:19.937 --> 00:27:21.318
everybody would have a ping pong table,
621
00:27:22.499 --> 00:27:27.242
but or free snacks bar or like the wellness class or whatever.
622
00:27:27.643 --> 00:27:29.724
But that's not really what motivates people.
623
00:27:31.185 --> 00:27:31.686
It might be,
624
00:27:32.086 --> 00:27:34.708
it might look great on like recruitment material.
625
00:27:35.729 --> 00:27:37.470
But on a day to day basis,
626
00:27:37.911 --> 00:27:38.191
you know,
627
00:27:38.251 --> 00:27:39.392
it's many other things,
628
00:27:40.553 --> 00:27:42.134
very different things that actually
629
00:27:42.554 --> 00:27:46.196
make people engaged and jazz and they really want to do their best work.
630
00:27:48.276 --> 00:27:49.157
And it is what
631
00:27:49.817 --> 00:27:52.018
I would like to ask you now.
632
00:27:53.198 --> 00:28:01.382
So we understand the limitation of motivation through money or kind of superficial initiative like ping pong or
633
00:28:01.862 --> 00:28:02.302
I don't know,
634
00:28:02.402 --> 00:28:02.942
well-being,
635
00:28:03.022 --> 00:28:04.743
isolated well-being program.
636
00:28:05.984 --> 00:28:11.306
But you suggest that there are four key elements that
637
00:28:12.166 --> 00:28:20.608
enable an organization to become human-centric and benefit at the end of the day from the employee advantage.
638
00:28:21.009 --> 00:28:30.891
First is about the need to create a motivating and specific purpose that you call shoot for the moon.
639
00:28:32.492 --> 00:28:40.354
So could you tell us more about why it is so important for employees that their organization has a...
640
00:28:40.514 --> 00:28:40.914
clear-cut pose.
641
00:28:41.375 --> 00:28:41.535
Yeah,
642
00:28:42.075 --> 00:28:42.616
absolutely.
643
00:28:42.656 --> 00:28:42.796
Yeah.
644
00:28:43.096 --> 00:28:43.216
So,
645
00:28:43.236 --> 00:28:43.497
I mean,
646
00:28:43.517 --> 00:28:47.980
those four motivators are coming out of like year-long of research in psychology,
647
00:28:49.922 --> 00:28:50.783
in the economics.
648
00:28:50.784 --> 00:28:50.923
I mean,
649
00:28:51.003 --> 00:28:58.029
part of like what psychologists would call self-determination theory has those motivators.
650
00:28:59.799 --> 00:29:00.459
as part of them.
651
00:29:00.940 --> 00:29:01.160
Now,
652
00:29:01.781 --> 00:29:09.007
the purpose or meaning or shoot for the moon is critically important because people want to create,
653
00:29:09.327 --> 00:29:09.667
you know,
654
00:29:09.767 --> 00:29:25.800
be part of something that is more than themselves or like achieves a bigger goal than just making profits or just going to work and like fulfilling a contract that they have with their employees.
655
00:29:25.801 --> 00:29:27.562
You want to be part of something bigger.
656
00:29:28.070 --> 00:29:31.311
I call it Shoot for the Moon because I tell the story in the book about,
657
00:29:31.751 --> 00:29:32.011
you know,
658
00:29:32.591 --> 00:29:34.332
NASA and like President
659
00:29:34.832 --> 00:29:35.592
Kennedy said,
660
00:29:35.652 --> 00:29:35.852
like,
661
00:29:35.872 --> 00:29:36.052
you know,
662
00:29:36.072 --> 00:29:38.113
when we know kind of the story a little bit,
663
00:29:38.133 --> 00:29:38.393
you know,
664
00:29:38.733 --> 00:29:39.173
he said,
665
00:29:39.213 --> 00:29:39.393
like,
666
00:29:39.394 --> 00:29:39.613
you know,
667
00:29:39.653 --> 00:29:41.234
we should bring a man to the moon.
668
00:29:41.314 --> 00:29:43.514
He reduced the mission to that goal.
669
00:29:43.934 --> 00:29:45.915
And then everybody in the organization,
670
00:29:45.955 --> 00:29:48.616
including that famous janitor who said,
671
00:29:48.617 --> 00:29:48.876
you know,
672
00:29:49.056 --> 00:29:50.236
I'm not mopping the floor.
673
00:29:50.416 --> 00:29:51.857
I bring a man to the moon.
674
00:29:53.197 --> 00:29:57.038
And somehow those being part of something bigger.
675
00:29:57.690 --> 00:29:59.451
is extremely motivating.
676
00:30:00.311 --> 00:30:00.591
You know,
677
00:30:01.211 --> 00:30:03.752
we're spending so much time at work.
678
00:30:04.492 --> 00:30:04.732
You know,
679
00:30:04.752 --> 00:30:07.053
it's part of our identity.
680
00:30:07.253 --> 00:30:07.493
You know,
681
00:30:07.533 --> 00:30:09.533
I want to go back in the evenings.
682
00:30:11.854 --> 00:30:16.856
I spent time for something that is bigger than just this paycheck.
683
00:30:17.836 --> 00:30:19.436
I actually solved the problem.
684
00:30:20.197 --> 00:30:24.958
We did some research in one particular in Sweden.
685
00:30:25.338 --> 00:30:27.339
A research study I did in Sweden where we looked,
686
00:30:27.340 --> 00:30:27.560
you know,
687
00:30:27.561 --> 00:30:28.680
what creates meaning,
688
00:30:29.921 --> 00:30:31.522
and that's kind of the purpose.
689
00:30:31.943 --> 00:30:32.663
And actually,
690
00:30:32.664 --> 00:30:33.644
it turns out a lot of,
691
00:30:33.784 --> 00:30:34.024
you know,
692
00:30:34.044 --> 00:30:35.005
we can get meaning.
693
00:30:35.105 --> 00:30:37.046
People are very different what meaning is.
694
00:30:37.186 --> 00:30:37.427
You know,
695
00:30:37.447 --> 00:30:44.031
it could be solving a really hard problem that really solves something,
696
00:30:44.071 --> 00:30:46.673
a significant problem for society.
697
00:30:47.214 --> 00:30:51.497
A lot of meaning and purpose also gets created by when it's social.
698
00:30:52.618 --> 00:30:53.178
When it's in...
699
00:30:53.418 --> 00:30:56.960
in effect in a positive way other people.
700
00:30:58.401 --> 00:30:58.522
So,
701
00:30:58.562 --> 00:30:58.822
you know,
702
00:30:58.942 --> 00:30:59.402
helpful,
703
00:30:59.502 --> 00:31:06.167
it's helpful to others or useful for society and society as a collective of human beings.
704
00:31:07.328 --> 00:31:09.169
And I think it's a very important,
705
00:31:09.229 --> 00:31:11.811
very few people get out of bed in the morning and say like,
706
00:31:11.851 --> 00:31:14.853
today I'm going to make a little bit more money for my organization.
707
00:31:16.094 --> 00:31:17.615
But like they get up like today,
708
00:31:18.135 --> 00:31:18.815
I'm solving,
709
00:31:18.996 --> 00:31:22.318
I'm working on a really hard problem that can help others.
710
00:31:22.822 --> 00:31:23.902
That's very motivating.
711
00:31:24.843 --> 00:31:27.004
But there is a key challenge,
712
00:31:27.484 --> 00:31:31.245
which is to ensure that this purpose,
713
00:31:31.866 --> 00:31:32.866
even if it is clear,
714
00:31:33.106 --> 00:31:38.008
is integrated into everyone's daily work.
715
00:31:38.268 --> 00:31:39.849
So the question for you,
716
00:31:40.069 --> 00:31:47.252
how can an organization design a purpose that becomes a kind of tangible reality in employees'
717
00:31:49.133 --> 00:31:50.093
day-to-day tasks?
718
00:31:50.233 --> 00:31:51.134
Yeah.
719
00:31:51.135 --> 00:31:51.814
I mean,
720
00:31:51.815 --> 00:31:52.074
one is...
721
00:31:53.214 --> 00:31:53.454
Eric,
722
00:31:53.494 --> 00:32:00.497
this is a great question because just having that lofty goal or going back to the NASA example,
723
00:32:00.978 --> 00:32:05.139
just knowing that we're bringing a man to the moon,
724
00:32:05.599 --> 00:32:10.842
how does the guy who mobs the floor internalize that goal?
725
00:32:12.242 --> 00:32:15.043
And I think there are a couple of things that are important.
726
00:32:15.163 --> 00:32:17.864
Often what I tell executives and also in the book,
727
00:32:18.485 --> 00:32:21.726
think about can your employees in their own world?
728
00:32:22.154 --> 00:32:22.514
Word.
729
00:32:23.094 --> 00:32:24.535
Explain what the goal,
730
00:32:24.795 --> 00:32:26.635
the purpose of the organization is.
731
00:32:27.476 --> 00:32:32.257
And not just tell the mission that is like painted on the wall,
732
00:32:32.757 --> 00:32:37.699
but actually tell what am I doing in order to help that goal.
733
00:32:38.279 --> 00:32:39.199
And if they can't,
734
00:32:40.280 --> 00:32:45.641
then I didn't do a good job in actually communicating that as well.
735
00:32:46.081 --> 00:32:48.202
The other is like it has to be linked to.
736
00:32:48.442 --> 00:32:50.323
everything we do in the organization.
737
00:32:50.383 --> 00:32:53.645
If it's just a phrase that is painted on the wall,
738
00:32:53.985 --> 00:32:54.305
you know,
739
00:32:54.385 --> 00:32:55.606
employees are not stupid.
740
00:32:55.826 --> 00:32:59.028
They actually see whether it's lift or not.
741
00:32:59.568 --> 00:33:00.549
And if it's not,
742
00:33:00.629 --> 00:33:03.210
that's very not only not motivating,
743
00:33:03.211 --> 00:33:06.592
it's actually demotivating in doing so.
744
00:33:06.692 --> 00:33:13.756
So you have to create the way that the employees really feel that there is an advantage,
745
00:33:13.796 --> 00:33:15.437
that we're having a purpose.
746
00:33:15.877 --> 00:33:16.437
It's interesting,
747
00:33:16.438 --> 00:33:17.398
I had a conversation.
748
00:33:17.638 --> 00:33:18.399
a couple of years ago,
749
00:33:19.240 --> 00:33:20.481
and I talk about it in the book,
750
00:33:20.521 --> 00:33:25.165
about an emergency room who wanted their doctors being motivated more.
751
00:33:25.265 --> 00:33:26.406
So it turns out,
752
00:33:26.407 --> 00:33:26.627
you know,
753
00:33:27.127 --> 00:33:28.749
if you think about an emergency room,
754
00:33:29.910 --> 00:33:31.111
there's a lot of purpose,
755
00:33:31.331 --> 00:33:31.592
you know,
756
00:33:31.672 --> 00:33:32.432
saving lives.
757
00:33:33.493 --> 00:33:34.775
But after a while,
758
00:33:34.995 --> 00:33:37.297
that job becomes a little mechanical.
759
00:33:37.717 --> 00:33:37.978
You know,
760
00:33:38.058 --> 00:33:38.218
like,
761
00:33:38.698 --> 00:33:40.100
here comes in another guy,
762
00:33:40.961 --> 00:33:42.042
I have to fix the knee.
763
00:33:43.226 --> 00:33:44.567
And it becomes a little bit like,
764
00:33:44.607 --> 00:33:44.887
you know,
765
00:33:45.067 --> 00:33:49.410
actually that guy who managed a lot of emergency room said,
766
00:33:49.450 --> 00:33:49.590
like,
767
00:33:49.591 --> 00:33:49.790
you know,
768
00:33:49.810 --> 00:33:50.750
they're a little jaded.
769
00:33:52.852 --> 00:33:54.232
And so he was thinking about,
770
00:33:54.252 --> 00:33:54.412
like,
771
00:33:54.432 --> 00:33:56.334
how can we actually motivate them more?
772
00:33:56.335 --> 00:33:56.574
I mean,
773
00:33:56.614 --> 00:33:56.974
he had a.
774
00:33:57.833 --> 00:33:58.994
I think he had a bad idea.
775
00:33:59.074 --> 00:33:59.694
He thought like,
776
00:33:59.714 --> 00:33:59.974
can we,
777
00:34:00.154 --> 00:34:01.214
for every patient,
778
00:34:01.234 --> 00:34:05.977
we can donate some money to a good cause and create meaning that way?
779
00:34:06.377 --> 00:34:06.757
And I said,
780
00:34:06.777 --> 00:34:06.897
no,
781
00:34:07.077 --> 00:34:14.120
you need to make the connection between that knee and what that knee is not just fixing a knee.
782
00:34:14.920 --> 00:34:18.802
That fixing a knee is a dad who then,
783
00:34:19.102 --> 00:34:19.422
you know,
784
00:34:19.522 --> 00:34:23.824
plays football with his son or daughter.
785
00:34:24.724 --> 00:34:25.405
That's a knee.
786
00:34:26.005 --> 00:34:26.285
you know,
787
00:34:26.425 --> 00:34:28.666
who helps their partner if they're older,
788
00:34:28.786 --> 00:34:29.046
you know,
789
00:34:29.086 --> 00:34:38.689
to get the groceries and kind of making that connection that fixing the knee is actually a much bigger part than just like mechanically fixing that knee.
790
00:34:39.810 --> 00:34:43.371
And somehow it depends obviously by organization,
791
00:34:43.431 --> 00:34:49.613
but like making clear what's the purpose and what is actually the big problem that we're solving.
792
00:34:50.553 --> 00:34:53.536
And then helping the employees on a daily basis,
793
00:34:53.537 --> 00:34:53.776
you know,
794
00:34:53.836 --> 00:34:56.378
formulate it in their own words what it actually is.
795
00:34:56.818 --> 00:35:06.887
And then making that connection as often as possible that they can actually feel that we're having and part of that greater good.
796
00:35:07.027 --> 00:35:07.487
Even though
797
00:35:08.248 --> 00:35:11.951
I might only be a little part in that whole,
798
00:35:11.952 --> 00:35:12.151
you know,
799
00:35:12.152 --> 00:35:13.472
I'm just mopping the floor.
800
00:35:14.553 --> 00:35:18.737
But like they will see that mopping the floor is a critical piece.
801
00:35:19.501 --> 00:35:24.785
of making that operation to bring a man to the moon a reality.
802
00:35:26.307 --> 00:35:26.587
Okay,
803
00:35:26.707 --> 00:35:28.568
so first criteria,
804
00:35:29.149 --> 00:35:31.471
first objective is a clear purpose.
805
00:35:31.531 --> 00:35:31.811
Maybe,
806
00:35:32.211 --> 00:35:32.592
Suzanne,
807
00:35:32.692 --> 00:35:35.554
time to speak about the second criteria.
808
00:35:35.994 --> 00:35:36.195
Yes,
809
00:35:36.415 --> 00:35:40.178
so the second key factor you talk about is trust.
810
00:35:40.918 --> 00:35:44.842
So why is mutual trust between leaders and employees so critical?
811
00:35:46.863 --> 00:35:49.005
I think trust is...
812
00:35:49.385 --> 00:35:50.865
The flip side of autonomy,
813
00:35:51.065 --> 00:35:51.326
you know,
814
00:35:51.406 --> 00:36:00.228
being empowered and having discretion and figuring out the right way of doing it is extremely motivating.
815
00:36:00.229 --> 00:36:00.468
You know,
816
00:36:00.469 --> 00:36:03.569
we see it in people who become entrepreneurs,
817
00:36:03.629 --> 00:36:09.991
even though we know kind of on average it's not as lucrative to be an entrepreneur because 90%
818
00:36:09.992 --> 00:36:10.971
of the businesses fail.
819
00:36:11.531 --> 00:36:18.493
And so there are only few who become the Googles or the Amazon of this world.
820
00:36:19.565 --> 00:36:22.487
But people still like it because they're then their own boss.
821
00:36:22.808 --> 00:36:24.369
You can make your own decision.
822
00:36:24.429 --> 00:36:24.589
Now,
823
00:36:24.949 --> 00:36:29.973
you can mimic something like that in organization where you give people more autonomy and empower them.
824
00:36:30.453 --> 00:36:33.235
But that only works if trust is involved.
825
00:36:34.316 --> 00:36:46.884
If I trust you to actually do the right thing and that trust combined with that I can actually now do something on my own is extremely motivating.
826
00:36:47.405 --> 00:36:47.785
And that…
827
00:36:48.233 --> 00:36:49.894
Creates not just motivation,
828
00:36:49.994 --> 00:36:58.782
creates those innovations that we care a lot in organizations nowadays.
829
00:36:58.822 --> 00:37:03.165
And this is a critical piece of having a motivated workforce.
830
00:37:03.185 --> 00:37:04.746
If you don't trust your employees,
831
00:37:06.127 --> 00:37:06.348
I mean,
832
00:37:06.368 --> 00:37:06.728
it's very,
833
00:37:06.788 --> 00:37:07.268
very hard.
834
00:37:08.249 --> 00:37:09.530
If you're like the macroman,
835
00:37:09.590 --> 00:37:11.232
and we all know that picture.
836
00:37:11.352 --> 00:37:17.036
We all worked for that boss or have some tendency in us.
837
00:37:17.997 --> 00:37:19.598
about being a micromanager.
838
00:37:20.639 --> 00:37:30.487
The micromanager is the most hated persona in organizations because of the distrust that comes with the micromanaging piece.
839
00:37:31.388 --> 00:37:34.671
And trust also encourages employees to speak up.
840
00:37:34.991 --> 00:37:38.454
And our listeners might remember our conversation with Amy Edmondson,
841
00:37:38.574 --> 00:37:41.816
who refers to this as psychological safety.
842
00:37:42.397 --> 00:37:43.738
So why is that so important?
843
00:37:43.758 --> 00:37:46.180
And how can we build that trust in organizations?
844
00:37:46.940 --> 00:37:47.221
Yeah.
845
00:37:47.661 --> 00:37:48.141
Exactly.
846
00:37:48.542 --> 00:37:49.983
I completely agree.
847
00:37:50.123 --> 00:37:52.404
Like part of the trust is like,
848
00:37:52.544 --> 00:37:52.805
you know,
849
00:37:53.285 --> 00:37:54.086
I mentioned before,
850
00:37:54.166 --> 00:37:56.007
one of the overarching thing is to listen.
851
00:37:56.767 --> 00:37:56.967
Now,
852
00:37:57.428 --> 00:37:58.128
if you listen,
853
00:37:59.089 --> 00:38:01.571
and everybody is afraid to actually tell the truth,
854
00:38:02.231 --> 00:38:02.471
you know,
855
00:38:02.511 --> 00:38:03.512
then you don't need to listen.
856
00:38:03.552 --> 00:38:03.752
I mean,
857
00:38:03.792 --> 00:38:05.854
then don't bother asking them.
858
00:38:07.915 --> 00:38:10.817
But if you really want to know what's not going well,
859
00:38:12.338 --> 00:38:14.680
how we should change and getting really input,
860
00:38:15.300 --> 00:38:16.261
you need to create
861
00:38:16.813 --> 00:38:17.794
what Amy calls,
862
00:38:17.814 --> 00:38:17.934
yeah,
863
00:38:17.974 --> 00:38:22.357
psychological safety or that environment where it's okay to criticize.
864
00:38:22.577 --> 00:38:26.139
It's okay to point out that I'm doing something wrong.
865
00:38:27.340 --> 00:38:27.460
Or
866
00:38:28.221 --> 00:38:33.144
I think like the overarching strategy of the organization is going in the wrong direction.
867
00:38:33.584 --> 00:38:36.686
And if you don't create that environment,
868
00:38:37.347 --> 00:38:37.627
you know,
869
00:38:37.667 --> 00:38:44.752
you're not getting the real feedback that actually allows you to do really tangible and important work to improve going forward.
870
00:38:44.812 --> 00:38:45.613
So yeah,
871
00:38:45.713 --> 00:38:46.213
trust is...
872
00:38:46.617 --> 00:38:48.538
Important for empowerment,
873
00:38:49.019 --> 00:38:55.123
but also important to actually get the right inputs from the employees.
874
00:38:55.763 --> 00:38:56.604
And as a result,
875
00:38:57.224 --> 00:38:59.826
if I feel like my opinion is valued.
876
00:39:00.942 --> 00:39:07.167
That not only provides like I'm actually able to share what I really want to say,
877
00:39:07.608 --> 00:39:11.291
but that's also a very motivating thing in general.
878
00:39:11.771 --> 00:39:15.694
We all have opinions and we all want to share those opinions.
879
00:39:15.695 --> 00:39:17.035
It's a part of our identity.
880
00:39:17.636 --> 00:39:29.706
And if we are able to share because the leader is trusting us in creating that psychological safety or that culture where it's okay to share also stuff that is not as nice to hear.
881
00:39:30.182 --> 00:39:30.823
At the moment,
882
00:39:30.903 --> 00:39:31.183
I mean,
883
00:39:31.263 --> 00:39:34.225
I think that creates like an engaged and motivated workforce.
884
00:39:34.746 --> 00:39:35.066
Right.
885
00:39:35.146 --> 00:39:45.214
So having leaders and managers shifting from perhaps micromanagement or that hierarchical approach more to being an engaged coaching role of sorts.
886
00:39:45.474 --> 00:39:48.037
And I think Eric's got questions about some ways to do that.
887
00:39:48.477 --> 00:39:49.117
Yeah,
888
00:39:49.217 --> 00:39:54.822
there is this key role of manager.
889
00:39:56.143 --> 00:39:56.403
As
890
00:39:57.044 --> 00:39:58.845
Suzanne mentioned,
891
00:39:58.885 --> 00:39:59.005
you...
892
00:40:00.498 --> 00:40:08.505
highlight how it is important for a leader to be an engaged coaching.
893
00:40:09.185 --> 00:40:14.770
Could you explain this specific role of leader as coach?
894
00:40:15.110 --> 00:40:15.250
Yeah,
895
00:40:15.751 --> 00:40:16.211
absolutely.
896
00:40:17.292 --> 00:40:27.360
And it has to do with kind of the contrast to micromanager because what a micromanager does is constantly involved in order to control.
897
00:40:28.561 --> 00:40:29.242
And I think...
898
00:40:29.582 --> 00:40:33.565
What the flaw is sometimes when people want to create,
899
00:40:33.605 --> 00:40:35.307
empower or create autonomy,
900
00:40:36.007 --> 00:40:38.349
they scale back on the control,
901
00:40:38.510 --> 00:40:39.390
which is a good thing.
902
00:40:40.111 --> 00:40:44.975
But they also scale back on the engagement or how frequently they're engaged.
903
00:40:44.995 --> 00:40:45.255
You know,
904
00:40:45.295 --> 00:40:45.816
they're kind of,
905
00:40:45.876 --> 00:40:46.156
Eric,
906
00:40:46.696 --> 00:40:47.597
you're in charge now.
907
00:40:48.858 --> 00:40:49.098
You know,
908
00:40:49.158 --> 00:40:52.641
I think the goal is you should move that division,
909
00:40:52.861 --> 00:40:53.242
you know,
910
00:40:53.822 --> 00:40:55.243
or move that goal forward.
911
00:40:55.984 --> 00:40:58.206
See you when you're done.
912
00:40:59.162 --> 00:41:00.482
And the problem is like,
913
00:41:00.842 --> 00:41:01.083
you know,
914
00:41:01.103 --> 00:41:01.863
there's always stuff,
915
00:41:01.923 --> 00:41:02.863
there's always hiccups,
916
00:41:02.883 --> 00:41:04.303
there's always stuff that doesn't work.
917
00:41:04.984 --> 00:41:08.264
And so all the interactions we are having then are negative.
918
00:41:08.825 --> 00:41:09.105
You know,
919
00:41:09.185 --> 00:41:10.225
like after a month,
920
00:41:10.745 --> 00:41:11.625
something doesn't work.
921
00:41:11.645 --> 00:41:13.426
And then you come to me and say like,
922
00:41:13.506 --> 00:41:13.766
Eric,
923
00:41:14.446 --> 00:41:14.866
of course,
924
00:41:14.926 --> 00:41:15.306
of course,
925
00:41:15.346 --> 00:41:16.427
it's not that direction.
926
00:41:16.807 --> 00:41:18.467
You should have gone in that direction.
927
00:41:19.568 --> 00:41:26.569
And so what we actually should do in order to set people up for success when they're empowered,
928
00:41:26.990 --> 00:41:28.750
if giving constant feedback.
929
00:41:28.870 --> 00:41:30.371
being very engaged,
930
00:41:31.092 --> 00:41:31.873
involved,
931
00:41:32.293 --> 00:41:36.577
in order to set up the autonomy for success and not for failure.
932
00:41:37.297 --> 00:41:42.021
And that's sometimes hard to do because I just empowered you to do it.
933
00:41:42.102 --> 00:41:43.563
I don't want to be involved right now.
934
00:41:44.444 --> 00:41:46.485
But you should actually be involved more,
935
00:41:46.505 --> 00:41:46.766
you know,
936
00:41:46.866 --> 00:41:48.347
constant involvement,
937
00:41:48.367 --> 00:41:49.268
constant feedback,
938
00:41:49.328 --> 00:41:50.349
constant check-ins,
939
00:41:50.769 --> 00:41:51.650
not to control,
940
00:41:52.230 --> 00:41:54.853
but actually to make sure you set up the...
941
00:41:56.534 --> 00:41:57.795
the autonomy for success.
942
00:41:57.796 --> 00:41:59.576
So that's what I mean with engaged.
943
00:41:59.696 --> 00:41:59.936
You know,
944
00:41:59.996 --> 00:42:01.117
you're very engaged,
945
00:42:01.658 --> 00:42:04.880
but as a coach and not as a control freak.
946
00:42:06.061 --> 00:42:08.022
So you're engaged in order to support.
947
00:42:08.442 --> 00:42:09.543
So that's the coach part.
948
00:42:09.903 --> 00:42:11.764
And not you're engaged to actually,
949
00:42:11.945 --> 00:42:12.205
you know,
950
00:42:12.285 --> 00:42:13.886
always control you.
951
00:42:13.887 --> 00:42:22.712
And I think it's a very important but hard thing to do because especially if you have the tendency and I'm personally a little bit of a control freak myself,
952
00:42:23.633 --> 00:42:23.933
you know,
953
00:42:24.093 --> 00:42:25.354
and then being,
954
00:42:25.394 --> 00:42:25.634
you know,
955
00:42:25.754 --> 00:42:28.917
Providing autonomy is sometimes hard.
956
00:42:28.937 --> 00:42:30.578
Then you have to be involved,
957
00:42:31.219 --> 00:42:32.340
but not controlling,
958
00:42:32.680 --> 00:42:33.861
but involved to support.
959
00:42:33.921 --> 00:42:37.544
And that needs a little bit of change of how we manage.
960
00:42:38.525 --> 00:42:44.410
But I think it's a very important part in order to make autonomy or empowerment work.
961
00:42:45.551 --> 00:42:45.811
Okay,
962
00:42:45.991 --> 00:42:47.593
so a clear purpose,
963
00:42:47.913 --> 00:42:52.837
trust and autonomy and being if you are a leader or an emerging.
964
00:42:54.370 --> 00:42:55.491
a manager,
965
00:42:55.591 --> 00:42:58.232
an engaged coach.
966
00:42:58.492 --> 00:43:01.173
A third factor,
967
00:43:01.233 --> 00:43:02.813
a third key factor,
968
00:43:03.014 --> 00:43:06.535
is related to employee tasks,
969
00:43:06.635 --> 00:43:10.997
what you call providing just right tasks at work.
970
00:43:11.457 --> 00:43:17.379
Could you define what constitutes just right tasks to be motivating?
971
00:43:18.240 --> 00:43:18.760
Yeah,
972
00:43:18.761 --> 00:43:18.880
yeah.
973
00:43:18.881 --> 00:43:19.020
I mean,
974
00:43:19.060 --> 00:43:19.460
in the book,
975
00:43:19.461 --> 00:43:22.982
I tell the story about my son starting to read.
976
00:43:23.242 --> 00:43:23.582
Uh...
977
00:43:23.862 --> 00:43:25.442
But you can think about it like any time.
978
00:43:25.462 --> 00:43:25.703
You know,
979
00:43:25.823 --> 00:43:27.743
let's say you like Sudoku.
980
00:43:28.723 --> 00:43:28.943
Now,
981
00:43:29.264 --> 00:43:33.345
I can give you a very easy level one Sudoku,
982
00:43:34.085 --> 00:43:37.746
and you're already on the level four type of Sudoku.
983
00:43:38.386 --> 00:43:38.986
It's boring.
984
00:43:39.006 --> 00:43:39.246
You know,
985
00:43:39.266 --> 00:43:39.826
it's easy.
986
00:43:39.926 --> 00:43:40.787
It's baby stuff.
987
00:43:42.387 --> 00:43:43.467
And I give you one,
988
00:43:43.487 --> 00:43:43.948
and it's like,
989
00:43:43.988 --> 00:43:44.108
oh,
990
00:43:44.128 --> 00:43:44.688
that's boring.
991
00:43:44.808 --> 00:43:45.908
Or should I do more of those?
992
00:43:46.268 --> 00:43:48.809
Or I can give you a level 10 Sudoku,
993
00:43:49.489 --> 00:43:51.450
which there's no way you can solve it,
994
00:43:51.490 --> 00:43:52.790
and after a while you give up.
995
00:43:53.251 --> 00:43:54.213
It's just too hard.
996
00:43:54.734 --> 00:43:59.262
What motivates people is when they have this just right task,
997
00:43:59.943 --> 00:44:02.227
just right according to their skills,
998
00:44:02.288 --> 00:44:02.889
ambition.
999
00:44:03.553 --> 00:44:03.893
And,
1000
00:44:04.954 --> 00:44:05.094
and,
1001
00:44:05.334 --> 00:44:06.795
and knowledge that they have.
1002
00:44:07.996 --> 00:44:09.117
And just right means that,
1003
00:44:09.257 --> 00:44:09.577
you know,
1004
00:44:09.717 --> 00:44:10.438
you're,
1005
00:44:10.439 --> 00:44:11.419
you can solve it.
1006
00:44:11.459 --> 00:44:14.501
So you feel good about yourself that you can actually master this,
1007
00:44:14.861 --> 00:44:16.182
but it pushes you a little bit,
1008
00:44:16.222 --> 00:44:16.442
you know,
1009
00:44:16.462 --> 00:44:17.383
it's not too easy.
1010
00:44:18.263 --> 00:44:19.624
But it's not too hard.
1011
00:44:20.004 --> 00:44:23.527
The problem is a lot of people are actually either under or,
1012
00:44:23.987 --> 00:44:24.267
you know,
1013
00:44:24.628 --> 00:44:25.348
under or over,
1014
00:44:25.628 --> 00:44:28.690
under over skilled for certain tasks.
1015
00:44:29.331 --> 00:44:30.451
Tasks are too easy,
1016
00:44:30.592 --> 00:44:31.412
too mundane.
1017
00:44:32.777 --> 00:44:33.658
too repetitive,
1018
00:44:34.018 --> 00:44:35.579
or the tasks are too hard,
1019
00:44:35.599 --> 00:44:40.202
or they're not trained well to feel good about themselves.
1020
00:44:40.502 --> 00:44:40.702
Now,
1021
00:44:40.982 --> 00:44:42.743
so that's kind of the just right task.
1022
00:44:43.003 --> 00:44:43.143
Now,
1023
00:44:43.203 --> 00:44:44.404
if you think about Sudoku,
1024
00:44:44.644 --> 00:44:45.885
or reading or everything,
1025
00:44:46.385 --> 00:44:48.166
once you mastered level four,
1026
00:44:49.207 --> 00:44:49.547
you know,
1027
00:44:50.648 --> 00:44:52.449
now level five is right.
1028
00:44:52.509 --> 00:44:54.490
And now once you have no level five,
1029
00:44:54.510 --> 00:44:55.451
it is level six.
1030
00:44:56.351 --> 00:44:58.833
And so you constantly need to evolve.
1031
00:44:59.401 --> 00:45:01.843
And that's what's the hard part as well as leaders,
1032
00:45:01.903 --> 00:45:05.145
because you need to provide your employees.
1033
00:45:05.146 --> 00:45:11.830
And I think it's more important than ever nowadays where the half-life of skills is going down,
1034
00:45:11.930 --> 00:45:15.072
where everybody's aware that we need new skills.
1035
00:45:15.172 --> 00:45:18.974
Stuff is moving so fast that people don't want to get stuck.
1036
00:45:19.095 --> 00:45:19.315
I mean,
1037
00:45:19.375 --> 00:45:25.299
most people actually leave organizations because they're bored out of their minds.
1038
00:45:25.379 --> 00:45:27.941
They're like stuck in what they're doing.
1039
00:45:27.942 --> 00:45:28.221
You know?
1040
00:45:29.001 --> 00:45:39.769
The question is like how to actually provide as leaders opportunities where you match the skills and ambition of their employees to the just right task and constantly evolve.
1041
00:45:40.430 --> 00:45:41.891
And that's hard to do.
1042
00:45:42.171 --> 00:45:42.471
You know,
1043
00:45:42.611 --> 00:45:46.534
I sometimes tell my exec participants now,
1044
00:45:46.834 --> 00:45:48.075
just for your whole team,
1045
00:45:48.455 --> 00:45:48.716
you know,
1046
00:45:48.736 --> 00:45:51.898
you just figure out what's the just right tasks of every team member,
1047
00:45:52.378 --> 00:45:56.001
match them to the just right tasks and constantly evolve.
1048
00:45:56.585 --> 00:45:57.045
And there's like,
1049
00:45:57.046 --> 00:45:57.186
well,
1050
00:45:57.206 --> 00:45:57.826
it's impossible,
1051
00:45:57.827 --> 00:45:58.026
you know,
1052
00:45:58.066 --> 00:45:59.147
I have like 10 members.
1053
00:45:59.167 --> 00:45:59.347
I mean,
1054
00:45:59.407 --> 00:46:01.389
even for 10 team members,
1055
00:46:01.390 --> 00:46:01.989
it's very,
1056
00:46:02.050 --> 00:46:02.830
very difficult.
1057
00:46:04.431 --> 00:46:06.753
And so now I talk a lot about also technology,
1058
00:46:06.773 --> 00:46:07.594
how that can help.
1059
00:46:07.854 --> 00:46:09.395
Because if you think about it,
1060
00:46:09.456 --> 00:46:11.497
that sounds a little bit like an AI task.
1061
00:46:12.678 --> 00:46:12.978
You know,
1062
00:46:13.139 --> 00:46:13.299
when
1063
00:46:14.179 --> 00:46:15.641
Netflix, you know,
1064
00:46:15.761 --> 00:46:18.583
like what Netflix does is figures out like,
1065
00:46:19.043 --> 00:46:20.324
what is Eric watching?
1066
00:46:21.685 --> 00:46:23.187
What is your favorite genre,
1067
00:46:23.347 --> 00:46:23.587
Eric?
1068
00:46:23.867 --> 00:46:25.328
I love documentary.
1069
00:46:25.709 --> 00:46:25.949
Okay.
1070
00:46:26.257 --> 00:46:29.220
So Eric loves nature documentaries.
1071
00:46:29.640 --> 00:46:33.784
Netflix knows that and shows you more nature documentary.
1072
00:46:34.285 --> 00:46:37.027
Susan watches more dramas?
1073
00:46:38.549 --> 00:46:38.709
Yeah,
1074
00:46:38.849 --> 00:46:39.850
dramas and comedies.
1075
00:46:40.290 --> 00:46:40.530
Okay,
1076
00:46:40.591 --> 00:46:41.011
comedies.
1077
00:46:41.051 --> 00:46:42.532
She likes comedies.
1078
00:46:42.672 --> 00:46:42.793
So
1079
00:46:43.233 --> 00:46:46.236
Netflix shows her more comedies.
1080
00:46:46.256 --> 00:46:48.538
And I really like history documentaries.
1081
00:46:49.018 --> 00:46:50.700
So now after a while,
1082
00:46:50.840 --> 00:46:51.080
you know,
1083
00:46:51.160 --> 00:46:51.681
I'm bored.
1084
00:46:52.005 --> 00:46:52.565
With like,
1085
00:46:52.605 --> 00:46:54.326
is MSL too many of high history?
1086
00:46:54.346 --> 00:46:55.387
I want to switch.
1087
00:46:55.407 --> 00:46:57.388
I want to actually watch documentaries.
1088
00:46:57.389 --> 00:46:58.449
So I'll watch a documentary.
1089
00:46:58.509 --> 00:46:59.109
Now Netflix,
1090
00:46:59.169 --> 00:47:00.090
the assistant then knows,
1091
00:47:00.210 --> 00:47:00.390
oh,
1092
00:47:01.030 --> 00:47:01.331
Stefan,
1093
00:47:01.351 --> 00:47:01.551
I mean,
1094
00:47:02.311 --> 00:47:03.732
he now watches something else.
1095
00:47:03.752 --> 00:47:05.173
So let's show him something else.
1096
00:47:05.933 --> 00:47:10.016
So it then constantly personalizes kind of the experience that I have,
1097
00:47:10.216 --> 00:47:10.696
that Eric,
1098
00:47:10.756 --> 00:47:13.138
that Susan have on Netflix.
1099
00:47:13.698 --> 00:47:16.500
Now we can think about that in the workplace as well.
1100
00:47:16.560 --> 00:47:18.581
And there are like AI power tools.
1101
00:47:19.165 --> 00:47:22.127
that now do that for organizations that are,
1102
00:47:22.627 --> 00:47:22.867
I mean,
1103
00:47:23.167 --> 00:47:25.428
they're called like internal marketplaces,
1104
00:47:25.849 --> 00:47:30.791
where it's like systems where people go on to those marketplaces and say,
1105
00:47:30.811 --> 00:47:31.072
you know,
1106
00:47:31.112 --> 00:47:32.252
I want to learn something new.
1107
00:47:32.432 --> 00:47:33.793
I will be interested in X,
1108
00:47:33.794 --> 00:47:33.913
Y,
1109
00:47:33.973 --> 00:47:34.213
and Z.
1110
00:47:34.353 --> 00:47:37.735
Then it matches it to projects in the organization.
1111
00:47:37.795 --> 00:47:39.636
So I just wrote a case about MasterCard,
1112
00:47:40.417 --> 00:47:41.717
who actually implements this,
1113
00:47:42.878 --> 00:47:48.261
where then it shows me projects on like social media project in...
1114
00:47:48.837 --> 00:47:49.997
In Dubai or like,
1115
00:47:50.357 --> 00:47:50.598
you know,
1116
00:47:50.599 --> 00:47:53.318
or maybe you ask the social media project in Switzerland.
1117
00:47:54.519 --> 00:47:58.260
Turns out the HR system doesn't know that I care about Switzerland a lot.
1118
00:47:59.180 --> 00:47:59.420
Now,
1119
00:47:59.780 --> 00:48:01.961
I then be part of that project.
1120
00:48:02.081 --> 00:48:03.181
The system then knows,
1121
00:48:03.301 --> 00:48:03.421
oh,
1122
00:48:03.481 --> 00:48:06.622
now Stefan actually knows something about social media.
1123
00:48:06.623 --> 00:48:08.963
So it updates kind of what my skills is,
1124
00:48:09.043 --> 00:48:10.763
what my ambitions are.
1125
00:48:11.263 --> 00:48:16.845
It starts to learn more about what I want to do and what not and provides kind of internal those.
1126
00:48:17.173 --> 00:48:20.135
just right tasks going forward.
1127
00:48:20.175 --> 00:48:22.896
So that's just one way how we can think about,
1128
00:48:23.777 --> 00:48:24.037
you know,
1129
00:48:24.317 --> 00:48:30.341
leveraging that motivator of what I call just right task or in psychology,
1130
00:48:30.381 --> 00:48:35.864
they call it competence or the feeling of competence that is very important for people,
1131
00:48:36.164 --> 00:48:36.404
you know,
1132
00:48:36.405 --> 00:48:38.365
to feel good about themselves and doing their best work.
1133
00:48:39.226 --> 00:48:39.786
And Suzanne,
1134
00:48:39.806 --> 00:48:41.867
there is a fourth criteria.
1135
00:48:42.228 --> 00:48:42.828
That's right.
1136
00:48:42.928 --> 00:48:44.649
The final and fourth fact.
1137
00:48:44.849 --> 00:48:46.270
is also really important,
1138
00:48:46.390 --> 00:48:50.553
which is collective identity and a sense of belonging.
1139
00:48:51.274 --> 00:48:55.337
So why is this important and how can leaders foster this,
1140
00:48:55.457 --> 00:48:56.858
including in a virtual environment,
1141
00:48:56.938 --> 00:48:58.559
which is a different sort of management task?
1142
00:48:59.179 --> 00:48:59.640
Exactly.
1143
00:48:59.680 --> 00:49:01.561
So I call it working together works,
1144
00:49:01.581 --> 00:49:02.762
but it's exactly what you said.
1145
00:49:02.862 --> 00:49:06.004
It's like positive social interactions,
1146
00:49:06.064 --> 00:49:06.725
belonging,
1147
00:49:07.385 --> 00:49:11.848
support in like human to human interaction.
1148
00:49:11.908 --> 00:49:12.028
Now,
1149
00:49:12.409 --> 00:49:13.870
if you ever played on a
1150
00:49:15.054 --> 00:49:17.256
on a sports team who works well,
1151
00:49:17.756 --> 00:49:18.016
you know,
1152
00:49:18.017 --> 00:49:20.198
you kind of know the power of like,
1153
00:49:20.639 --> 00:49:20.919
you know,
1154
00:49:21.019 --> 00:49:28.185
together we can sometimes create more or achieve more than the individual parts.
1155
00:49:29.185 --> 00:49:34.730
And so working together really works and it's extremely motivating.
1156
00:49:35.350 --> 00:49:35.871
However,
1157
00:49:37.092 --> 00:49:38.613
it doesn't just come like that.
1158
00:49:38.673 --> 00:49:38.973
You know,
1159
00:49:39.073 --> 00:49:41.675
you actually have to be very intentional and manage that.
1160
00:49:41.776 --> 00:49:41.996
Well,
1161
00:49:42.036 --> 00:49:44.498
that's where the leader now play a role.
1162
00:49:45.162 --> 00:49:49.024
And it's interesting that you mentioned virtual environment or like hybrid,
1163
00:49:49.064 --> 00:49:51.505
because when you think about those four factors,
1164
00:49:51.945 --> 00:49:52.165
you know,
1165
00:49:52.166 --> 00:49:53.686
when you think about remote work,
1166
00:49:54.706 --> 00:49:57.447
there are two factors that influence kind of the decision.
1167
00:49:58.048 --> 00:49:59.808
And they go in opposite directions.
1168
00:50:00.369 --> 00:50:04.650
One is the need for autonomy and flexibility or trust,
1169
00:50:05.151 --> 00:50:07.151
where like if you want to maximize that,
1170
00:50:07.331 --> 00:50:07.572
you know,
1171
00:50:07.752 --> 00:50:11.733
everybody should do whenever they want to work or wherever they want to work.
1172
00:50:11.913 --> 00:50:13.214
I'll give you a full.
1173
00:50:14.799 --> 00:50:17.402
full flexibility and trust you that you do the work,
1174
00:50:17.482 --> 00:50:18.563
which is an important part.
1175
00:50:19.243 --> 00:50:26.470
The working together works is like something about in-person relationships is also critically important.
1176
00:50:27.091 --> 00:50:27.231
Now,
1177
00:50:27.291 --> 00:50:28.572
if you want to maximize that,
1178
00:50:28.612 --> 00:50:31.615
maybe we need to bring everybody back to the office constantly.
1179
00:50:32.976 --> 00:50:35.779
And so I think that actually creates some of the tensions,
1180
00:50:36.400 --> 00:50:38.502
business leaders or organizations now.
1181
00:50:38.950 --> 00:50:40.131
have been struggling with,
1182
00:50:40.171 --> 00:50:40.432
like,
1183
00:50:40.472 --> 00:50:42.133
how much should we bring people back?
1184
00:50:42.214 --> 00:50:46.658
How much should we give them flexibility or not?
1185
00:50:48.700 --> 00:50:49.201
But I think,
1186
00:50:49.441 --> 00:50:49.661
you know,
1187
00:50:50.342 --> 00:50:54.507
why it's important to be working together works and having those positive relationship.
1188
00:50:55.328 --> 00:50:58.030
I don't think it's necessary to have that 40 hours a week,
1189
00:50:59.692 --> 00:50:59.932
you know,
1190
00:50:59.952 --> 00:51:01.054
or think like one of the...
1191
00:51:01.814 --> 00:51:02.454
working together,
1192
00:51:02.534 --> 00:51:03.755
belonging or whatever.
1193
00:51:03.855 --> 00:51:06.715
One benefit is like those spontaneous interactions,
1194
00:51:06.735 --> 00:51:06.975
you know,
1195
00:51:06.995 --> 00:51:07.896
the water cooler,
1196
00:51:07.956 --> 00:51:11.677
kombucha tap moments or whatever people talk about.
1197
00:51:12.097 --> 00:51:12.277
Now,
1198
00:51:13.317 --> 00:51:16.078
we don't do that 40 hours a week anyway.
1199
00:51:17.098 --> 00:51:24.060
And we can be much more intentional about creating those positive interaction than we did.
1200
00:51:24.600 --> 00:51:25.601
And in the past,
1201
00:51:26.001 --> 00:51:29.562
I do think a lot of leaders were phoning it in somehow.
1202
00:51:29.922 --> 00:51:30.342
They thought,
1203
00:51:30.562 --> 00:51:36.865
just because we're in the same office creates those positive or belonging or whatever.
1204
00:51:38.106 --> 00:51:38.366
I mean,
1205
00:51:39.147 --> 00:51:41.488
a lot of my exec ad participants say like,
1206
00:51:41.508 --> 00:51:41.688
you know,
1207
00:51:41.689 --> 00:51:46.811
the downside of remote or hybrid work is culture.
1208
00:51:46.911 --> 00:51:47.851
We're losing the culture.
1209
00:51:49.312 --> 00:51:49.912
And I say like,
1210
00:51:49.932 --> 00:51:50.153
well,
1211
00:51:50.773 --> 00:51:51.033
you know,
1212
00:51:51.113 --> 00:51:53.114
when we were all in the office five days a week,
1213
00:51:53.154 --> 00:51:53.754
I think 50%
1214
00:51:54.175 --> 00:51:56.056
of workplaces had toxic work cultures.
1215
00:51:56.176 --> 00:52:00.158
Just because we're together doesn't create belonging at all.
1216
00:52:00.618 --> 00:52:01.818
And in fact,
1217
00:52:02.859 --> 00:52:03.699
if we're in person,
1218
00:52:03.700 --> 00:52:07.680
we can be really nasty to each other if we want it to be.
1219
00:52:08.120 --> 00:52:12.361
So we have to be very intentional to creating those positive interactions,
1220
00:52:12.921 --> 00:52:14.442
whether that's virtual or not.
1221
00:52:15.482 --> 00:52:15.762
You know,
1222
00:52:15.822 --> 00:52:18.343
we're having now a lovely conversation on Zoom,
1223
00:52:19.203 --> 00:52:23.644
which would be not possible in the real world because it's like Paris.
1224
00:52:23.964 --> 00:52:24.184
I mean,
1225
00:52:24.185 --> 00:52:25.705
it would happen to be both in New York,
1226
00:52:26.265 --> 00:52:26.825
Susan and I,
1227
00:52:27.165 --> 00:52:27.345
but,
1228
00:52:27.745 --> 00:52:28.025
you know,
1229
00:52:28.146 --> 00:52:29.826
it would be very difficult to do that.
1230
00:52:31.167 --> 00:52:33.448
is some personal interaction important?
1231
00:52:33.548 --> 00:52:34.789
I personally do believe so.
1232
00:52:35.669 --> 00:52:35.929
You know,
1233
00:52:35.969 --> 00:52:38.971
that meeting people in person has something very special,
1234
00:52:40.212 --> 00:52:45.455
but it doesn't need to be that often and it needs to be very intentional anyway.
1235
00:52:45.495 --> 00:52:51.358
We can manage that as leaders to create very positive social interactions.
1236
00:52:52.758 --> 00:52:58.883
And one of the other things that you talk about is each individual having their own unique aspirations.
1237
00:52:59.103 --> 00:53:02.546
And you've talked about customizing the employee experience.
1238
00:53:03.307 --> 00:53:08.491
Can you give a little bit more advice about how to do that and create what you call moments at work that matter?
1239
00:53:09.752 --> 00:53:09.972
Yeah.
1240
00:53:10.693 --> 00:53:10.873
Yeah.
1241
00:53:11.033 --> 00:53:11.393
It's like,
1242
00:53:11.674 --> 00:53:11.934
you know,
1243
00:53:12.014 --> 00:53:13.755
people are very different in what motivates.
1244
00:53:13.855 --> 00:53:14.116
You know,
1245
00:53:14.396 --> 00:53:15.897
while on average,
1246
00:53:16.438 --> 00:53:18.259
those four motivators are important.
1247
00:53:18.659 --> 00:53:18.900
You know,
1248
00:53:19.020 --> 00:53:21.502
some people are more motivated by autonomy.
1249
00:53:22.650 --> 00:53:23.130
than others.
1250
00:53:23.190 --> 00:53:25.151
Some care about the purpose more than others,
1251
00:53:25.711 --> 00:53:26.851
and so on and so forth.
1252
00:53:27.431 --> 00:53:31.113
And I think we can do a much better job now to actually personalize,
1253
00:53:31.553 --> 00:53:31.853
again,
1254
00:53:31.873 --> 00:53:35.314
in the way that the consumer-centric organizations do really well.
1255
00:53:35.974 --> 00:53:38.195
And it is,
1256
00:53:38.475 --> 00:53:40.315
thinking about consumers again,
1257
00:53:41.236 --> 00:53:44.136
we have to be very careful about the data as well in that
1258
00:53:45.257 --> 00:53:46.297
I'm sometimes annoyed,
1259
00:53:46.377 --> 00:53:49.158
frightened to figure out like...
1260
00:53:49.846 --> 00:53:54.410
Amazon seems to know much more about me than I know about me.
1261
00:53:54.450 --> 00:53:54.690
I mean,
1262
00:53:54.710 --> 00:53:56.172
they show me stuff that was like,
1263
00:53:56.993 --> 00:53:58.053
I just talked to my wife.
1264
00:53:58.074 --> 00:53:58.314
I mean,
1265
00:53:59.154 --> 00:54:02.858
I just talked to my wife about this and now they already show me ads for XY.
1266
00:54:03.358 --> 00:54:05.200
So we have to be very careful.
1267
00:54:05.692 --> 00:54:07.053
in how we implement this.
1268
00:54:07.533 --> 00:54:15.439
But if the goal is to actually create a better work environment where it's not a one-size-fits-all and be very transparent,
1269
00:54:16.340 --> 00:54:19.622
I think then it can be a very personal experience.
1270
00:54:19.642 --> 00:54:22.665
Those internal marketplaces I explained to you before,
1271
00:54:23.485 --> 00:54:24.426
that's a very personal.
1272
00:54:25.407 --> 00:54:30.711
We might have started in the same job position and division,
1273
00:54:31.091 --> 00:54:32.552
but because we are interested in our...
1274
00:54:32.772 --> 00:54:33.553
different things.
1275
00:54:33.693 --> 00:54:35.374
Our ambition level might be different.
1276
00:54:35.795 --> 00:54:39.838
We're matched to very different job projects potentially.
1277
00:54:40.259 --> 00:54:42.140
Our experience is going to be very different,
1278
00:54:42.180 --> 00:54:42.961
but we volunteer.
1279
00:54:43.621 --> 00:54:46.484
We wanted to do that and it's very transparent what it does.
1280
00:54:46.924 --> 00:54:47.345
And again,
1281
00:54:47.765 --> 00:54:50.708
going back to what I started at the very beginning,
1282
00:54:50.828 --> 00:54:52.889
involving employees,
1283
00:54:52.989 --> 00:54:53.850
talking to them,
1284
00:54:54.110 --> 00:55:00.276
being very transparent about it is kind of the goal to create this more personalized experience.
1285
00:55:00.764 --> 00:55:03.186
where we have those individual moments that matter,
1286
00:55:04.046 --> 00:55:04.907
that matter to me,
1287
00:55:05.587 --> 00:55:07.548
that are very different than what matter to you,
1288
00:55:07.648 --> 00:55:07.989
Susan,
1289
00:55:08.049 --> 00:55:08.989
or what matters to you,
1290
00:55:09.509 --> 00:55:09.790
Eric.
1291
00:55:11.951 --> 00:55:12.391
Stéphane,
1292
00:55:12.751 --> 00:55:15.953
we are sadly at the end of our conversation,
1293
00:55:16.093 --> 00:55:23.898
but I have a final question for you about the future of work,
1294
00:55:24.899 --> 00:55:26.740
one which is in principle...
1295
00:55:26.800 --> 00:55:27.160
inspired,
1296
00:55:27.260 --> 00:55:29.341
suggested by one of our listeners,
1297
00:55:29.401 --> 00:55:29.841
Jeremy
1298
00:55:30.381 --> 00:55:37.023
Dufoy, regarding new technological and data possibilities related to employees.
1299
00:55:37.543 --> 00:55:44.505
What benefits do you envision for implementing and maintaining an employee-centric culture?
1300
00:55:44.625 --> 00:55:49.646
And what are the risk organizations could be Ausha of?
1301
00:55:51.647 --> 00:55:51.927
Yeah,
1302
00:55:51.967 --> 00:55:52.807
it's a great question.
1303
00:55:52.808 --> 00:55:53.027
You know,
1304
00:55:53.067 --> 00:55:54.528
technology moves so fast.
1305
00:55:54.568 --> 00:55:56.028
There are so many opportunities.
1306
00:55:56.408 --> 00:55:58.329
There's also a lot of anxiety,
1307
00:55:59.550 --> 00:55:59.970
obviously,
1308
00:56:00.030 --> 00:56:00.570
about like,
1309
00:56:00.590 --> 00:56:00.831
you know,
1310
00:56:00.871 --> 00:56:02.291
is my job going to be gone?
1311
00:56:02.351 --> 00:56:02.592
You know,
1312
00:56:02.672 --> 00:56:04.753
what is automated as well?
1313
00:56:05.253 --> 00:56:05.493
I mean,
1314
00:56:05.613 --> 00:56:09.395
I think one important part is it's a choice.
1315
00:56:09.695 --> 00:56:11.396
We have choices.
1316
00:56:13.197 --> 00:56:13.458
You know,
1317
00:56:13.498 --> 00:56:16.839
technology sometimes feels like technology is like hitting us.
1318
00:56:17.140 --> 00:56:18.220
It's coming our way.
1319
00:56:19.101 --> 00:56:19.621
And that's true.
1320
00:56:19.661 --> 00:56:21.462
There's technological advancements,
1321
00:56:21.842 --> 00:56:22.923
whether we want it or not.
1322
00:56:23.383 --> 00:56:24.044
But in the end,
1323
00:56:24.084 --> 00:56:24.744
as leaders.
1324
00:56:25.024 --> 00:56:27.106
we can implement it in one way or the other.
1325
00:56:27.266 --> 00:56:30.990
We actually have the choice to do it one way or the other.
1326
00:56:31.150 --> 00:56:41.880
And I think what is important to keep those motivators that I talked about in mind and think about how can we strengthen them and not destroy them.
1327
00:56:42.360 --> 00:56:44.882
And there is a real danger about destroying them.
1328
00:56:44.942 --> 00:56:45.963
Let's talk about trust,
1329
00:56:46.404 --> 00:56:47.064
for example.
1330
00:56:47.164 --> 00:56:47.465
You know,
1331
00:56:47.505 --> 00:56:48.946
like with technology,
1332
00:56:49.667 --> 00:56:50.928
you can surveil.
1333
00:56:51.680 --> 00:56:55.042
people in ways that you were never able to do before.
1334
00:56:56.062 --> 00:56:56.383
You know,
1335
00:56:56.503 --> 00:56:58.904
I can see how many keystrokes you do,
1336
00:57:00.105 --> 00:57:00.385
you know,
1337
00:57:01.806 --> 00:57:06.168
and it's frightening what those surveillance technologies that are taking off,
1338
00:57:06.208 --> 00:57:09.670
which of course destroy motivation right away.
1339
00:57:10.170 --> 00:57:14.213
Or I can use technology to be a more engaged coach,
1340
00:57:14.653 --> 00:57:19.175
to actually provide more information that is very personalized about us,
1341
00:57:19.215 --> 00:57:19.856
to help me.
1342
00:57:20.320 --> 00:57:22.882
to be one of those engaged coaches.
1343
00:57:23.222 --> 00:57:26.665
And kind of through all of those motivators,
1344
00:57:26.666 --> 00:57:32.390
you can think about how technology can help and enhance the motivators and how it can destroy.
1345
00:57:32.931 --> 00:57:33.471
And in the book,
1346
00:57:33.511 --> 00:57:34.592
I try to talk about,
1347
00:57:34.652 --> 00:57:34.852
like,
1348
00:57:34.853 --> 00:57:35.072
you know,
1349
00:57:35.112 --> 00:57:36.253
how to actually use them.
1350
00:57:36.694 --> 00:57:36.814
Now,
1351
00:57:36.834 --> 00:57:37.975
it moves so fast,
1352
00:57:37.976 --> 00:57:38.255
you know,
1353
00:57:38.715 --> 00:57:39.996
there is not that much about,
1354
00:57:40.157 --> 00:57:42.078
or I'm not even sure I mentioned
1355
00:57:42.799 --> 00:57:44.640
Gen AI in the book,
1356
00:57:44.660 --> 00:57:47.703
but it's the same with a lot of those technologies.
1357
00:57:47.843 --> 00:57:48.103
You know,
1358
00:57:48.183 --> 00:57:49.064
how can that help?
1359
00:57:50.432 --> 00:57:53.073
And if we don't implement it in a human-centric way,
1360
00:57:53.634 --> 00:57:54.674
there is first of all,
1361
00:57:55.474 --> 00:57:57.375
your resistance from the workforce,
1362
00:57:58.355 --> 00:58:00.816
but it's also we're not actually leveraging to the same,
1363
00:58:02.117 --> 00:58:07.719
to the potential that it could have by actually make work even better than it is right now.
1364
00:58:09.640 --> 00:58:10.400
Last question,
1365
00:58:11.061 --> 00:58:11.601
Stéphane.
1366
00:58:12.121 --> 00:58:19.464
If you had to give one piece of advice to a leader wanting to get started.
1367
00:58:19.744 --> 00:58:26.028
and effectively transform their organization into an employee-centric culture?
1368
00:58:26.288 --> 00:58:27.109
What would it be?
1369
00:58:28.530 --> 00:58:28.690
Yeah,
1370
00:58:28.790 --> 00:58:31.751
so I think I have to go back to what I said at the beginning.
1371
00:58:31.912 --> 00:58:33.873
I would actually start with listening.
1372
00:58:34.913 --> 00:58:35.154
You know,
1373
00:58:35.234 --> 00:58:37.255
have like a real listening.
1374
00:58:38.026 --> 00:58:43.790
tour or listening to go to your employees on every level and ask them.
1375
00:58:44.691 --> 00:58:44.891
Now,
1376
00:58:45.431 --> 00:58:46.552
as we talked before,
1377
00:58:47.272 --> 00:58:50.215
if you didn't create an environment where it's okay to share,
1378
00:58:50.315 --> 00:58:52.736
then it's obviously you have to start with that first.
1379
00:58:54.317 --> 00:58:55.638
But if you start listening,
1380
00:58:55.898 --> 00:58:57.079
what is not going well,
1381
00:58:57.580 --> 00:58:58.881
I think you learn a lot.
1382
00:58:59.981 --> 00:59:00.281
There is,
1383
00:59:00.342 --> 00:59:00.782
that's what,
1384
00:59:02.163 --> 00:59:02.423
you know,
1385
00:59:02.443 --> 00:59:03.984
I tell the story about Hubert Jolly,
1386
00:59:04.264 --> 00:59:06.466
who took over as CEO of Best Buy.
1387
00:59:06.942 --> 00:59:08.484
There he did a listening tour.
1388
00:59:09.164 --> 00:59:10.586
I just finished a book about
1389
00:59:11.286 --> 00:59:12.227
Oscar Munoz,
1390
00:59:12.728 --> 00:59:13.529
who was the
1391
00:59:13.929 --> 00:59:16.992
CEO of United when it was in trouble.
1392
00:59:16.993 --> 00:59:17.673
He did that.
1393
00:59:17.773 --> 00:59:18.053
You know,
1394
00:59:18.113 --> 00:59:21.797
he like went around and listened to these employees.
1395
00:59:21.837 --> 00:59:24.579
And you learn a lot what is going wrong.
1396
00:59:25.821 --> 00:59:31.146
And then you have a long list to start working down from there.
1397
00:59:32.290 --> 00:59:34.392
It's a great starting point for advice.
1398
00:59:34.532 --> 00:59:35.652
So thank you so much again,
1399
00:59:35.653 --> 00:59:36.093
Stefan,
1400
00:59:36.233 --> 00:59:37.154
for your time today.
1401
00:59:37.174 --> 00:59:39.755
This was a fantastic and very important conversation.