Basic Christianity: Forgiveness with Jacob Hudgins

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In this episode of Balancing the Christian Life, we talk about the importance of forgiveness.
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Welcome to Balancing the Christian Life.
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I'm Dr Kenny Embry.
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Join me as we discover how to be better Christians and people in the digital age.
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Sin is a big problem that requires a big solution.
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Yeah, we sin a lot so much so that it doesn't seem like a big deal, except it is a big deal.
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So what's the solution to this big deal?
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Forgiveness.
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I think we probably think of forgiveness as just the other half of this puzzle.
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It's the jelly in a PB&J.
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You just can't talk about sin without talking about forgiveness.
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But that is precisely what I wanted to do.
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Last time, we talked about the problem of sin with my friend Keith Stonehart, and this time I wanted to talk about the more optimistic side of this coin forgiveness.
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To talk about this idea, I brought in another old friend, Jacob Hudgens.
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He's an evangelist in College Station, Texas, and an author of several books, including a devotional about grace and another one about what he calls the school of Christ.
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Specifically, I wanted to see what the importance of forgiveness truly is, and we do that.
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I want you to watch out for a few things, including how Jesus showed us what true forgiveness should look like.
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We'll also look at what forgiveness costs, and not just Jesus.
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Think about what real forgiveness costs you.
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We'll also see how personal, spiritual forgiveness changes things.
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On a few practical pieces of advice when it comes to forgiveness.
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Yeah, that's a lot about a simple but profound idea.
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So, Jacob, let's start here.
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What is forgiveness?
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Well, forgiveness is where an offense has been committed and there is a consequence of the offense, and forgiveness is where the debt is released and we're no longer on the hook for what we've done.
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So it has dimensions that have to do with how God views our sin and his willingness to release us from those debts, and it also has dimensions that have to do with us and other people.
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Jesus connects those when he says forgive us our debts as we forgive our debtors in the Lord's prayer.
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So there's a connection between God overlooking letting go of our sins and us doing the same for others.
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Well, you entered into almost churchy language immediately.
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Um, we, we understood if I were telling my kids to you guys need to get it, get over this, you guys need to forgive yourself, each other and and just stop being stupid.
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Uh, they would understand that.
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But is this different in a personal context versus religious context?
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so you're right about that.
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But I think that perhaps the one difference is that very often our forgiveness issues are much more about personal offenses and things that are not necessarily evil in themselves but are hurtful, whereas things that have to do with God are evil, and when we sin against God, it's not just that we hurt his feelings, it's that we've done something that's evil.
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But I do think there is a strong connection in the idea of how do we manage having a relationship going forward with people who have hurt us or done wrong, and in that sense we have God as a model, god as an example of not giving up on people just because they're not doing what they should, and God not thinking people are irredeemable, which I think.
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When we have experience with other people, we start to feel that way, especially certain people.
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We just feel like this will never work.
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I'm done with this, and some of what God does shows us he looks at people differently, but a lot of what Jesus teaches says that just can't be the way Christians think.
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I completely agree with you on that.
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I think I completely agree with you on that.
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I think, especially when we started thinking about the person of Jesus and who Jesus is and what he did.
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I mean, I suspect that your prayer life might be a little bit like mine, where it's the tagline for every prayer I've ever said which is forgive us of our sins or forgive me of my sins, for every prayer I've ever said which is forgive us of our sins or forgive me of my sins, and it kind of becomes that thing that I add in there, because I know that's what makes it a real prayer and I don't really think about what I'm asking for.
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And again, when I was talking to Keith Stonehart about sin, we so quickly want to rush to the, the, the solution, which is forgiveness.
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But, as you were talking about there, jesus is the model of forgiveness.
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In what ways is he that model?
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I mean, he would tell, uh, he would tell, uh, he would tell Peter that, that, that, that we should forgive one another 70 times 7.
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So I guess that puts us up to a 490.
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And I guess, if we need to, well, we both know, I mean, that's figurative language.
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So what does Jesus teach us about forgiveness?
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So Jesus has a completely different uh perspective.
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I think everybody you read the gospels and everybody around him sees it uh and even today, like we're all, even as a society, that is is really moving away from a biblical foundation.
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We're all fascinated by jesus.
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We can tell there's something unique about him and I think forgiveness is a huge part of what he brings.
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That's unique and it's a willingness to say I know you're not.
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They feel like I can come to this man and don't know about the Pharisees, I don't know about the religious leaders, but I can come to Jesus and I'm a tax collector, I'm a prostitute and I can find something in him that nobody else is giving, which is the acceptance of I'm willing to love you in spite of the fact that you've sinned.
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So that I think Jesus teaches us that there's more to people than their sins, and we can't just throw people out because they have not been perfect, even if they've given themselves over to a lifestyle of sin, like some of those people had.
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He is willing to accept and reconsider, even sacrifice his own reputation for those people, even sometimes get hurt.
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Judas betrays him.
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He is even willing to forgive those who are killing him while they do it.
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So Jesus is, like, fully committed to this way of living.
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He is going to forgive people even if it hurts him, even if he has to do it over and over again.
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Think about how many times the disciples did dumb and hurtful stuff to him that probably would have earned a dismissal from one of us.
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But he's very patient with them, and so I think he teaches us that forgiveness is a worthwhile priority.
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I think the fact that his life still resonates shows us that like this is something that is ageless, but it's also personally taxing.
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Like it costs you something.
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It costs Jesus so much to forgive people.
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It costs him his reputation, it costs him physical suffering, and yet you don't come out of that saying, well, he was dumb to think that way.
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Instead, you come out saying this may be so important that it's worth all of that.
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So I think we need both of those perspectives that it's worthwhile, but it's also going to hurt.
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You know, one of the stories that Keith and I started talking about was the story of Hosea and I started talking about was the story of Hosea, who was intentionally married to a prostitute, and the idea there being there's nothing that Hosea did that warranted the kind of treatment he got from Gomer, and in many ways, I feel like Hosea in some ways looks like a very weak man because he has a wife that he keeps on coming back to, that keeps on abusing him and keeps on using him, but ultimately, by the time you get to the end of the story, he is a brokenhearted man.
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But he's a very strong man and I think that's one of the misperceptions that we can often have with forgiveness.
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Do you think forgiveness makes us stronger or weaker?
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Oh, absolutely stronger.
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But I do think there is that misconception that still persists that you're not holding people to account, you're letting people take advantage of you.
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And I do think I want to be clear.
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I do think that there are situations where people who are in an abusive relationship might say you know whativeness is not really the issue there, and I'm not saying even Jesus is recommending you keep getting abused.
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But there is.
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You read his words in Matthew 5 about turning the other cheek and loving your enemies, and I think a lot of people would see that as weak.
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You know, they would see a strong person as retaliating and defending themselves.
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But that's just part of Jesus' perspective.
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He's going to say there's strength in the seeming weakness and forgiveness.
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Again, I keep coming back to this Jesus' life resonates with people because there is far more strength in the restraint and the care and compassion he had than there is in somebody who would just come out and I don't know, do a Samson and just kind of tear everybody apart.
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Yeah, that's a form of strength, but Samson's also incredibly weak.
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And so I do think one of the things we struggle with with forgiveness is not really that we come across as weak, it's that we feel our wrongs deserve better justice than what forgiveness would give us.
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For some reason, when I'm hurt, it's worse than anybody else's pain that's ever experienced pain, and so that sense of injustice especially when I haven't done anything to deserve it, like you mentioned a minute ago with Jose and Gomer.
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I don't deserve this treatment.
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I've done the right thing, they've treated me poorly, and so there's no way those two are going to meet and I'm going to be okay with it.
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It just seems so unfair and I think that creates a tremendous level of emotional pushback for it.
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Can we take it for granted?
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Is forgiveness one of those things that, as Christians, we just sit back and you know, sending is my job, forgiveness is God's job.
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Let me do my job and I'll let him do his.
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Yeah, well, we continue in sin.
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That grace may abound.
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It's something that I think it goes back to what you said a moment ago.
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When we don't think sin is as serious as it is, then we don't think forgiveness is as big a deal as it is.
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Right to how we view other people's sin, Because we look at it as if God has got all the money in the world and so him forgiving a little debt from me is not a big deal, and when we think of it that way, then surely that's not going to be as big a deal as when you hurt me because I don't have that much to give.
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So that is the exact opposite of Jesus' parable about how much we've actually been forgiven versus how much we actually are called on to forgive.
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So I think it goes back to we become glib about what our sin really is, the rebellion it represents and the cost that it took to let it go for God, and instead we presume on that a little bit and then we think it just is way too much to ask for us to let go of somebody else's smaller things.
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Well, you said that forgiveness is a big deal.
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Make the case for me.
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Steel man that argument.
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Why is forgiveness a big deal?
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Well, the there's several dimensions of the people holding on to the hurts that have been done to you and the bitterness and anger that that causes in you will destroy you.
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It will ruin your life.
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You just ask the question.
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You go meet someone and they're 80 years old and they're crotchety and angry and you ask the question how do people get to be crotchety and angry?
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It's because they never learned to forgive and they have kept an account of every wrong that's ever happened to them.
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So if you want the answer that modern man would appreciate it's.
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This is something that is for your best life and your mental health to learn to let things go.
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You can't just store up everything that's ever gone wrong in your life, or else you will become a person that you and everyone else hates.
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Now, that's one answer, by the way let's give it its due as well, because I think that is where a lot of people get hung up.
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They will, they will sit for years and stew on on something that some people will not even remember, and and that's, that's that will.
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I mean you will lose.
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You will lose, uh, precious time, but but you will.
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You will lose the ability to, to, to progress on to something, and that is you won't say it, but let me say it that's stupid, that is just supremely stupid, because what you're doing is you are giving somebody else control over what you do.
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You have given them your brain rent-free, and that is a supremely stupid thing to do, because they can't.
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You are giving them control of you.
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Again, I apologize, and I realize what you're saying right now is that's not a spiritual thing, that's really more a psychology thing.
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But the psychology of that is absolutely true that if you do not, from a psychological point of view, learn how to forgive, you will make yourself miserable.
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Does that make sense?
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Yes, oh, absolutely.
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I think there is a biblical case there when Paul says let all wrath and anger and bitterness be put away from you, with all malice, and be kind to one another, tender, hard and forgiving.
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Like you, you look at all of those.
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They're all representations of how anger will consume your life and poison you if you don't learn to forgive.
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Uh, but I do think that that uh perspective, where we we hold onto things, not only do other people control us, but we stay stuck in a certain state where we're the victim and we forget what we've done.
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And it's not about I've never hurt anybody and we say things like I can never understand how anyone would do that, which is really not using our imaginations very well, if we can't understand how other people would do wrong things or how we would, that whole mentality is such a dead end, spiritually speaking, that forgiveness is just the clear way out of it's sort of like um I heard this expression one time you can't be greedy if your hands are always open, you know if you're, if you're always giving things away, you can't be greedy.
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And you can't be bitter if you're always forgiving.
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It just won't work.
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You can't do both.
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And so there's a Bible solution to a very serious anger, depression problem that persists in our culture and grievance type stuff.
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So that's one answer type stuff.
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So that's one answer.
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I would say.
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Part of what forgiveness is important for doing is it helps us grow deeper spiritually.
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I've had some things that have gone on in my life where they were long-term, big picture wounds that I just wrestle.
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I mean I just wrestle with.
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Can I forgive this person, can I get over this?
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And I would pray Jesus model prayer forgive us our debts as we forgive our debtors.
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And I would pray that daily because I think it's intended to be a daily prayer and I would every day.
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It was like how am I doing on this?
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It's like poking the bruise.
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You know how, how do I feel today and and ask for strength to let go of that today.
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And.
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I'll tell you um time passes, the Lord heals and works in our lives.
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But but it was much harder than I would have ever guessed just from reading that verse.
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It's a verse.
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It just says forgive, but forgiveness can be a process and a process of growth and healing and learning new perspectives and trying to think differently.
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And then when you are given the gift of being able to move forward, you see the brilliance of it and I feel like I'm in a different place than I was struggling with all of those things.
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So I am concerned a bit that we in our nation have exchanged biblical thought for some really shallow thinking about topics like this, where Paul would say about topics like this, where Paul would say why can't you be defrauded?
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Why can't you get the wrong end of the stick?
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What is it in you that is so important that you can't ever suffer?
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How can you serve a suffering Savior and nothing bad ever happens to you, or you whine and complain, and that to me.
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I really do think that if Paul were to march into some of our churches, he would just chew us all out about that, like can you guys not get along, get over some of this stuff Really, like Jesus died for you to forgive you, and you can't even let the smallest things go.
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So to me there is a depth there, depth there, and then I will just say that that whole process, you know, you grow and you can tell you are becoming more like Jesus, because when we're able to let things go, we view people differently and we begin to be more open, the way he is.
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We begin to say you know what, kenny?
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I know we've had our problems, but I love you and we're brothers and we're going to be okay.
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Instead of it being, oh great, here comes Kenny again.
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Do you hear what he said about me?
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That one time, you know, and so our relationship strengthened, our churches strengthened and we're able to.
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You know, other people look at us who are outside and begin to say, hey, maybe, maybe that's a place where I'll be received instead of rejected, because you know outside, and begin to say, hey, maybe that's a place where I'll be received instead of rejected, because I have some things that need to be forgiven.
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You just keep expanding the circle out.
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We become more like Jesus and everything is transformed.
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I can keep going with that answer but I think you get my drift.
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Well, if the benefits of forgiveness are so obvious and you make them sound great I mean, this is just the best thing since sliced bread, and I don't eat bread Then why isn't everybody doing it, hudgens?
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It's hard, it's hard, it's hard.
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It's hard to just think back to when you were a child and the first few times you were hurt deeply by something someone said or did, and you think back to how betrayed you felt, how disorienting it was.
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I'm not sure that we ever really acclimate to wounds like that.
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I suspect this is just my personal experience, but there are some people I kind of expect to hurt me, or I kind of expect to not care.
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But when the people who I expect to do right by me don't, when I've given my full hearted effort and they spit on it, it's a special kind of pain.
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And so when I talk about forgiveness, I don't and and you know I we've had situations in our family where you know there's been adultery and, and you know, long-term pain and long-term betrayal.
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These things are not easy.
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It's not a you snap your fingers and you're over it.
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Nor is it like, hey, just read your Bible and get over it.
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It's a process.
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It's painful and there's a part of you that, like we've said before, it feels like they're getting away with it if you let it go.
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You know that this person should be defined by this forever.
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But I think that that whole idea of transforming the heart from just a wounded heart to a heart that's willing to go all the way and accept and maybe even rebuild a relationship with someone who's hurt.
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Like that.
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It's just hard.
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I don't think that the answer is any deeper than that.
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It's extremely hard and I also mentioned that.
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Like for me it was a year's process and just that's, just that one situation.
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So I don't think everybody's up for that.
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Like they're not saying, hey, I want to spend years trying to get over something.
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They don't see any need for it, I'll just be mad and stay mad and, just you know, talk bad about them whenever I see them.
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So, uh, I don't.
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I want to be clear as much as I'm a proponent for forgiveness, I don't, um, uh, criticize people for for being hurt and for struggling.
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How do you deal with your pain?
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I understand, I understand that fully, but I just think we have to say but, but we serve a forgiving Savior and there has to be that, but in there.
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If there's not, I've got a problem.
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I'm not sure how Christians are different from the world if we're not going to listen to Jesus about something that's so near and dear to our hearts.
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I think God expects us to forgive, to really understand his position better, that if it's so hard for us, why do we think it's so much easier for God?
00:23:57.387 --> 00:24:03.612
That sin is sin, but, but I mean sin.
00:24:03.612 --> 00:24:05.804
The problem of sin is, but I mean sin.
00:24:05.804 --> 00:24:35.094
The problem of sin is the same problems that we have with people who act like knuckleheads around us, which is it's hard for us to get back into a relationship with somebody that has already given us proof that they have and will treat us poorly, that they have and will treat us poorly, and that's if you can learn how to do that, you're a good person, you're a better person, you're a stronger person, as we've already talked about.
00:24:35.094 --> 00:24:48.002
But I think I don't know and I disagree with you with this, if you want to, hudgens but I think he calls on us to forgive so that we can understand who he is and what he does.
00:24:48.002 --> 00:24:49.445
Does that make sense to you?
00:24:50.587 --> 00:24:51.329
Yeah, absolutely.
00:24:51.329 --> 00:25:01.522
And I actually think it can build a feeling of relationship with God where, in a way I hate to say it this way, but it kind of humanizes God.
00:25:01.522 --> 00:25:11.788
I hate to say it like that, Cause you there's some things I don't mean by that, but you know what I mean Um, that makes God relatable, because we feel the pain, Like when he gets frustrated.
00:25:11.788 --> 00:25:17.230
Especially there are times in the old Testament where he says you know, you guys know better than this.
00:25:17.230 --> 00:25:23.432
And, uh, I I find myself saying the same thing to my children, for one.
00:25:23.432 --> 00:25:31.285
But, um, you know, saying the same thing about somebody, maybe in the church, like, hey, you know better than this, why are you acting this way?
00:25:32.060 --> 00:25:39.384
And there's a special kind of frustration and hurt that comes with that, and so it's like, yeah, I get it.
00:25:39.384 --> 00:25:40.648
God, I'm right there with you.
00:25:40.648 --> 00:25:41.422
I have felt that.
00:25:41.422 --> 00:25:46.402
But the hard part is owning that sometimes I make God feel that way.
00:25:46.402 --> 00:25:47.243
That's the hard part.
00:25:48.446 --> 00:25:49.588
Yeah, yeah.
00:25:49.588 --> 00:25:55.854
And you said you don't want to humanize God, and I guess what I would say is I think God is trying to holy eyes us.
00:25:55.854 --> 00:26:10.588
I mean, the thing about it is God owns that and, to the extent that we have to participate in the same thing he does, it just makes us more aware of the magnitude of what he has to do.
00:26:10.588 --> 00:26:19.535
What he does well, not even that he has to do, I mean, he has to only because of the moral code that he does not violate.
00:26:19.535 --> 00:26:23.238
He can let us rot Well, you know that.
00:26:23.238 --> 00:26:28.402
Um, he could let us rot well, you know that.
00:26:28.422 --> 00:26:47.561
But let me ask you this, because I think one of the things that you've already made an allusion to this it's it's one thing to forgive somebody, but there are times when it doesn't make any sense at all for you to get back into a relationship with somebody who, where it can be dangerous.
00:26:47.561 --> 00:26:50.309
Can you speak to that?
00:26:50.309 --> 00:26:58.388
Because I think one of the things that is important for Christians to understand is there are some things that you need to forgive.
00:26:58.388 --> 00:27:08.192
You need to forgive, but there are things that you need to learn through the forgiveness process that go forward in a relationship.
00:27:08.192 --> 00:27:09.134
Do you see what I'm saying?
00:27:10.720 --> 00:27:24.973
Yeah, I would say, like I think of Jesus saying don't give what's holy to the dogs, or cast your pearls before swine lest they turn and trample them and tear you to pieces.
00:27:25.835 --> 00:27:48.273
That idea of there are people who they're dangerous, and I think that we have to admit that without saying I, you know, I'm going to try to judge everybody to see whether they're dangerous, but there are times where you, you learn that about people from, uh, from being in relationship with them, uh, so, uh, the question then becomes you know, do I forgive them?
00:27:48.334 --> 00:27:54.661
And I think the answer is yes, I forgive, like we've described, um, but I think there's another step there.
00:27:54.661 --> 00:28:01.000
That's sort of the what are the practical fallouts after I've kind of let this go from my own heart.
00:28:01.000 --> 00:28:13.082
Um, you know, there are people, there are people who I'm not going to have the same relationship with because, not because I'm still mad about something, but because I don't trust them.
00:28:13.082 --> 00:28:37.481
And there are people whose behavior has proven, especially over time, that they're a little bit I don't like the word toxic, but a little bit dangerous, and so I think that idea of what's the ongoing fallout is not the same as do I get to hold onto my anger and live in my pain and frustration.
00:28:37.481 --> 00:28:41.461
To me those are two separate issues and I think those get conflated when we discuss forgiveness.
00:28:41.803 --> 00:28:45.231
So there are know there, there are.
00:28:45.231 --> 00:29:00.224
So, for example, you know you have a marriage that that breaks up over an affair and there can be forgiveness, but there doesn't necessarily have to be okay, but this to forgive this, this couple has to stay together, um, that sort of thing.
00:29:00.224 --> 00:29:09.867
Uh, and I would just say, you know there are, like the one that always comes up is the I don't know why this always happens.
00:29:09.867 --> 00:29:18.902
I don't know, maybe it happened too much in the past but the treasurer at the church who's caught stealing money, you know you can forgive him, but do you put him back in charge of the treasury?
00:29:18.902 --> 00:29:28.432
You know, I guess it's been happening since Judas's day, by the way, but that idea, do we keep putting trust in a person?
00:29:28.432 --> 00:29:30.834
It's like, well, there may be a process to get different.
00:29:30.834 --> 00:29:32.576
I mean to reestablish trust.
00:29:36.269 --> 00:29:37.680
To me those are just different issues.
00:29:37.680 --> 00:29:38.346
Yeah, me too.
00:29:38.346 --> 00:29:53.152
I think I have been thinking for a long time now that one of the highest callings that God has called us to is wisdom, that there is the idea of wisdom and what it means to apply God's law.
00:29:53.152 --> 00:30:03.259
So the New Testament is not Leviticus, it's not Deuteronomy, it's not a list of laws.
00:30:03.259 --> 00:30:04.372
It's basically a modeling of laws.
00:30:04.372 --> 00:30:11.275
It's, it's, it's basically a, a modeling of a life, well-lived, uh, and I think that's the.
00:30:11.777 --> 00:30:14.723
There are definitely things that we were told to do and told not to do.
00:30:14.723 --> 00:30:34.247
For the most part, when you, when you think about the relationship again, I guess one of the things I come back to and I've I've referenced this several times is that paul and barnabas over john mark and I don't think that was I don't necessarily think that was a forgiveness situation.
00:30:34.247 --> 00:30:45.153
It might have been I I just we are given so few details about that that entire uh, blow up, fight, whatever you want to call it.
00:30:45.153 --> 00:31:03.550
But I think one of the things that happened makes a lot of sense to me, because Barnabas and Paul wouldn't travel together again over something, but both of them found ways to be important in the kingdom.
00:31:03.550 --> 00:31:20.326
Still, we hear a lot more about Paul, but it is impossible for me to think that Barnabas would make him stop, because we read later on about how John Mark is one of the people that Paul wants to see after a while.
00:31:21.426 --> 00:31:33.532
I think one of the things that I think about that there are times when Christians can just reach an impasse and we are both better served by not working together.
00:31:33.532 --> 00:31:35.221
Do you see what I'm saying?
00:31:35.221 --> 00:31:37.202
I'm not trying to ramble.
00:31:37.202 --> 00:31:38.223
I promise Jacob.
00:31:40.365 --> 00:31:44.931
I think there are just times where we have legitimate disagreements.
00:31:44.931 --> 00:31:57.044
To me there's no wrong done in the Paul Barnabas situation, not like one of them wounded the other, and so to me it's not a forgiveness issue.
00:31:57.044 --> 00:32:00.106
But I do think we work closely together.
00:32:00.106 --> 00:32:14.166
We're going to have some philosophical differences and to me I can really see it Like here's Paul he's got the personality where he says you know, this work is too important to have this guy desert us again and you know we're doing the work.
00:32:14.166 --> 00:32:18.046
You want to come, you got to be in all in and you totally see that in Paul's personality.
00:32:18.046 --> 00:32:20.386
Here's Barnabas he's all about the people.
00:32:20.386 --> 00:32:23.328
He's like hey, he learned his lesson, give him another chance.
00:32:23.368 --> 00:32:31.015
We got to be accepting and warm with people and they just have a difference of opinion, like they just don't see it the same way, and you can see that happen like that.
00:32:31.015 --> 00:32:38.299
That's totally a picture from modern times, where any two people just view the world differently and make the different decisions about a certain situation.
00:32:40.461 --> 00:32:55.376
So so I just think, that what's happening here is sometimes we have to say let's keep doing the work and let's not be bitter and angry at each other.
00:32:55.376 --> 00:32:58.769
But you know, this may be better if we're not together.
00:32:58.769 --> 00:33:20.271
And there are people like that, and I think it's important to value each other's work in the kingdom in those situations and not say, well, I don't like his opinion about X or Y, so I'm going to act like he's not even a believer, and I think I'm impressed that you don't ever see that from either Paul or Barnabas.
00:33:20.271 --> 00:33:22.508
There's no aspersions cast in any way.
00:33:24.640 --> 00:33:38.813
Not that are recorded, that's for sure, but I think one of the things that well, let me ask you about this, and we've made reference to this pretty straightforwardly what does forgiveness teach us about God?
00:33:46.000 --> 00:34:06.954
I think the main thing is that God still wants relationship and he wants it so badly with us that he is willing to find a way, even when the way is closed, and he's willing to take the cost on himself.
00:34:06.976 --> 00:34:25.751
But all of the things that fall under that umbrella of what Jesus did and how God became just, and the justifier all of that to me is the subheading to the main headline, which is God wants a relationship so bad with you that he will find a way to put away your sin.
00:34:25.751 --> 00:34:48.155
And when I say that about God, I again keep coming back to us, because that becomes the question for us Do I want relationships with my brothers and sisters, with my family members, with my fellow man so much that I would be willing to put away sin and forgive?
00:34:48.155 --> 00:34:58.387
And because to me that helps so much to reframe it, as this is about love and not about me, it's about do I care about people?
00:34:58.387 --> 00:35:06.833
And so God shows this tremendous level of care where he says he could have just thrown the whole project away.
00:35:06.833 --> 00:35:14.181
I mean, nobody's good enough, no one's righteous, not going to happen, and yet he wants it bad enough.
00:35:14.181 --> 00:35:19.936
So I think that in almost every situation, if we want it bad enough.
00:35:19.936 --> 00:35:25.851
We can maintain relationships despite people sinning against us and hurting us.
00:35:29.920 --> 00:35:37.293
Often in our congregations we know the guy who's going to come forward at the invitation song and things like that.
00:35:37.293 --> 00:35:46.795
Is there a difference between personally forgiving somebody and then forgiving somebody as a church?
00:35:49.880 --> 00:35:59.925
Well, I think, um, I think the church is the compilation of a lot of individuals, um, but I I do think I've I've noticed this in talking to people.
00:35:59.925 --> 00:36:11.331
Um, people are afraid to talk to the church, and I think I know why.
00:36:11.331 --> 00:36:21.168
I think it has to do with some traditional reactions that they expect when something serious has happened.
00:36:21.168 --> 00:36:24.570
They expect people to react in a harsh and judgmental way.
00:36:24.570 --> 00:36:29.027
I've not seen that in my lifetime, which I'm thankful for.
00:36:29.027 --> 00:36:39.768
I have seen, when someone has a serious sin to confess, that the group welcomes them and embraces them.
00:36:39.768 --> 00:37:00.429
But I think that, you know, those are the kinds of things that take a long time to unwind, and the struggle with doing things as a group is that any one person can mouth off and suddenly the whole church sounds like they're intolerant.
00:37:00.429 --> 00:37:13.733
Uh, and I, I had that situation when I moved to a new church and I had only been that church for a few months and someone came and asked me if I do this, will somebody here say something?
00:37:13.733 --> 00:37:22.702
And I'm like, okay, so I'm supposed to tell you what 300 people might say that I don't even know, you know, and so, like that, that is different.
00:37:22.742 --> 00:37:30.427
But I think, as a church, what's important is that we have leaders who are leading by receiving and welcoming.
00:37:30.427 --> 00:37:42.835
I think it's important that we have preaching that encourages people to bring their issues and not hide them, not just Bible robots who always say and do the right thing.
00:37:42.835 --> 00:37:43.556
We're actual people.
00:37:43.556 --> 00:37:53.134
And then to say can we find ways to keep these people in front of us and include them as part of the group?
00:37:53.134 --> 00:38:00.606
Maybe that's you know, they need to be parts of worship, or maybe that's we need to keep checking on them, but it doesn't need to be.
00:38:00.606 --> 00:38:09.030
They did their penance and came forward and now, you know, we kind of stick them in the back room or we don't talk about what happened or something like that.
00:38:10.101 --> 00:38:14.351
So to me there are some church things that are a little different from the personal part.
00:38:14.351 --> 00:38:29.228
But I am a little wary of using the church as if that process of going forward and telling everyone in the church as a way of adding a requirement where the church is controlling things.
00:38:29.228 --> 00:38:30.351
I'm aware of that.
00:38:30.351 --> 00:38:41.422
It, to me, is very Catholic in the sense that Catholicism has the church usually standing between a person and God, and that's not our job as a church.
00:38:41.422 --> 00:38:44.128
They don't need our forgiveness to get God's forgiveness.
00:38:44.128 --> 00:38:56.452
So there are some things about that that may be a little uneasy, but at the same time I understand people wanting to let others know I'm trying to do right again.
00:38:56.452 --> 00:38:57.639
I need your help, and I think that's definitely a positive.
00:38:58.420 --> 00:39:00.327
So let me just sum up here.
00:39:00.327 --> 00:39:06.762
It sounds like forgiveness is that thing that basically puts two people who are at odds back into a relationship.
00:39:06.762 --> 00:39:11.452
That makes sense, that it's something that we need to do.
00:39:11.452 --> 00:39:14.465
We need to do it for ourselves, we need to do it for the others.
00:39:14.465 --> 00:39:18.340
It's also something that helps us identify with God.
00:39:18.340 --> 00:39:26.813
These are all things that are important, and God does it on a regular basis and see if you agree with this.
00:39:26.813 --> 00:39:29.083
And it's not his job.
00:39:29.083 --> 00:39:47.413
It's his gift that this is something that we don't deserve and it's not something that he's going to go in from nine to five to make sure that our sin is forgiven, but it is the gift that he gives us when we decide to have that kind of relationship with him.
00:39:47.413 --> 00:39:49.965
Does this all make sense to you?
00:39:50.847 --> 00:39:52.052
Yeah, absolutely.
00:39:52.052 --> 00:40:00.054
I would add you don't have Christianity without forgiveness, right?
00:40:00.054 --> 00:40:02.641
Jesus makes no sense without forgiveness.
00:40:02.641 --> 00:40:04.402
Jesus makes no sense without forgiveness.
00:40:04.402 --> 00:40:14.190
It is the signature teaching of Jesus' life, which means it's the most important teaching of the most important man who's ever lived.
00:40:14.190 --> 00:40:24.318
And if we want to be Christians and receive forgiveness from God, we can't not forgive.
00:40:24.318 --> 00:40:29.221
It just doesn't work.
00:40:29.221 --> 00:40:51.190
And I am alarmed at times when I see and I mean you can hear it, because when you stumble on someone's bitterness, it's abundantly clear that very often Christians can be Christians for 50 or 60 years and sit in the church pew and quote Ephesians, and yet we don't actually forgive the people who've hurt us.
00:40:51.190 --> 00:40:56.251
And I just think there's a disconnect there that we just have to call out.
00:40:56.251 --> 00:40:58.960
I don't want to be a Christian who doesn't follow Jesus.
00:40:58.960 --> 00:41:01.565
I want to be a Christian who does what Jesus?
00:41:01.625 --> 00:41:01.945
did.
00:41:01.945 --> 00:41:14.634
So I want to say I'm thankful for a God who's willing to forgive in this way, and I am challenged by what that means for me, with my hurts and struggles.
00:41:17.882 --> 00:41:21.070
Let me get you to go back and unpack just a little bit more.
00:41:21.070 --> 00:41:27.501
You say this is basically Jesus's signature move, that this is what Jesus was all about.
00:41:27.501 --> 00:41:33.454
Let's face it Most people who are looking for Jesus weren't looking for forgiveness.
00:41:33.454 --> 00:41:36.425
This was not what they needed the Messiah to be.
00:41:36.425 --> 00:41:38.871
They needed the Messiah to kick Rome out.
00:41:38.871 --> 00:41:45.052
Why do you say that this is Jesus's main purpose?
00:41:45.052 --> 00:41:45.782
Do?
00:41:46.003 --> 00:41:50.679
you say that this is, this is uh, jesus's uh main purpose.
00:41:50.679 --> 00:41:55.822
Well, I think there is uh for one.
00:41:55.822 --> 00:41:57.003
He's here for forgiveness, to forgive others.
00:41:57.003 --> 00:41:59.389
Um, you know he comes for that purpose, so that he can be God's one.
00:41:59.389 --> 00:42:01.914
He uses to bring forgiveness to the people.
00:42:01.914 --> 00:42:05.751
Um, but you can also see how he?
00:42:05.751 --> 00:42:08.117
He, yeah, he is different.
00:42:08.358 --> 00:42:09.922
It is not what they're expecting.
00:42:09.922 --> 00:42:16.081
They do want him to come, kick the Romans out, but think about who he draws to himself.
00:42:16.081 --> 00:42:23.309
It is not the people who don't need forgiveness, it's everybody who does.
00:42:23.309 --> 00:42:26.855
So you've got the, the Pharisee and the tax collector.
00:42:26.855 --> 00:42:32.791
And the Pharisee is saying I thank you that I'm not like other men, I'm not like the scumbag tax collector.
00:42:32.791 --> 00:42:37.016
And the tax collector says God, be merciful to me, a sinner who comes to Jesus.
00:42:37.016 --> 00:42:41.188
Are the people who need forgiveness and who doesn't come are the people who think they're fine.
00:42:41.670 --> 00:42:43.262
Jesus talks to the blind man about.
00:42:43.262 --> 00:42:47.809
You know, these guys think that they see and so their sin remains.
00:42:47.809 --> 00:42:51.860
But if you know that you're blind, then you can come to me and receive sight.
00:42:51.860 --> 00:42:59.914
So that idea becomes a way he in that uniquely God genius way.
00:42:59.914 --> 00:43:02.806
It's like an off-speed pitch.
00:43:02.806 --> 00:43:13.610
They're not expecting it, but it ends up separating the world into the people who are willing to see God's mercy and the people who are not, and then the people who are willing to extend mercy to others and the people who are not.
00:43:13.610 --> 00:43:18.672
So, um, I just see that as a thread and the disciples pick up on it.
00:43:18.672 --> 00:43:23.862
They hear him pray and Jesus points it out you know, if you want God to forgive you, you forgive others.
00:43:24.422 --> 00:43:25.242
And Jesus points it out.
00:43:25.242 --> 00:43:29.887
You know, if you want God to forgive you, you forgive others.
00:43:29.887 --> 00:43:30.447
Tell the story of the man.
00:43:30.447 --> 00:43:32.590
You know, the man who is forgiven a great debt and won't forgive a small debt.
00:43:32.590 --> 00:43:34.971
And Peter says how many times do I have to forgive?
00:43:34.971 --> 00:43:38.213
Because Peter, by the way, is all up on it, he hears it.
00:43:38.213 --> 00:43:41.016
Jesus says your brother sins against you.
00:43:41.016 --> 00:43:41.817
Go tell him his fault.
00:43:41.817 --> 00:43:43.641
You've gained your brother.
00:43:43.641 --> 00:43:45.362
And Peter says whoa, whoa, whoa, whoa, whoa.
00:43:45.362 --> 00:43:46.103
I have to forgive him.
00:43:46.103 --> 00:43:47.846
How many times?
00:43:48.166 --> 00:43:51.409
Like seven, and Jesus blows his mind.
00:43:51.710 --> 00:43:52.931
So I just look at that.
00:43:52.931 --> 00:43:56.936
It's a consistent teaching theme, it's a consistent character theme.
00:43:56.936 --> 00:43:57.617
It's who he is.
00:43:57.617 --> 00:44:00.061
People are drawn to him because of this.
00:44:00.061 --> 00:44:04.632
You think about the woman caught in adultery and she comes to him and he says I don't condemn you either.
00:44:04.632 --> 00:44:15.427
You know, that whole idea of something about him is uniquely accepting of people even though they're sinners, and then, of course, him dying for the sins of the world.
00:44:15.427 --> 00:44:24.014
So I look at that and I say that's unique and that's the signature thing.
00:44:24.014 --> 00:44:28.023
And when people talk about Jesus it's just the thread that goes through his whole life.
00:44:28.023 --> 00:44:38.530
So I just want to call disciples of Jesus to be more like Jesus in that area, to appreciate our forgiveness and then to extend it to other people.
00:44:38.530 --> 00:44:40.663
I just don't see any other way to follow Jesus.
00:44:42.547 --> 00:44:56.873
Like I said last time time, I was talking to Keith about the problem of sin, and this is obviously the solution to sin, the only, the only other solution is if we just stopped sending altogether and then we get started on that.
00:44:56.873 --> 00:45:11.329
The reason I wanted this to be a separate episode is because sin is is a big problem and forgiveness is a big solution, and I think both of them get trivialized.
00:45:11.329 --> 00:45:12.713
Do you agree with that?
00:45:13.539 --> 00:45:13.960
Yes, I do.
00:45:13.960 --> 00:45:20.442
I think we very much take God's role in forgiving us for granted, so it can vary.
00:45:20.442 --> 00:45:32.927
Well, paul says in Romans 2 that we can presume on the riches of God's grace, and I take that to mean we assume it'll always be there you know, I can always repent later.
00:45:33.039 --> 00:45:34.143
God will always have me back.
00:45:34.143 --> 00:45:35.007
It'll be fine.
00:45:35.007 --> 00:45:36.565
It's just what God does.
00:45:36.565 --> 00:45:38.101
And so we end up.
00:45:38.101 --> 00:45:47.929
You know that inevitably has an effect on how we live, but then I also think that we minimize our own need to forgive other people.
00:45:47.929 --> 00:45:50.815
So I think both of those are under-emphasized.
00:45:52.239 --> 00:45:52.521
I agree.
00:45:52.521 --> 00:45:53.827
Okay, what did I miss?
00:45:56.721 --> 00:45:57.041
I don't know.
00:45:57.041 --> 00:46:01.192
I think I've given you several of my impassioned rants, so I'm probably just about out.
00:46:01.192 --> 00:46:02.903
I'm probably just about out.
00:46:03.505 --> 00:46:05.068
Well, they're good, impassioned rants.
00:46:05.068 --> 00:46:05.791
I like that.
00:46:05.791 --> 00:46:13.619
I end all the podcasts, as you know, with be good and do good.
00:46:14.041 --> 00:46:15.403
What's good about us forgiving others?
00:46:15.403 --> 00:46:20.012
There is a beauty in living your life free of the hurts that you've gone through.
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There is beauty in understanding and relating to people who have hurt you, asking the question why did they do this?
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Have I ever done something like that?
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Understanding that I have also hurt people and I'm not any different.
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I'm not any better uh, that I need to be able to let this go, because we're the same person me and the person who me.
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There's good in seeing your wounds redeemed and transformed into healing and sometimes even into things that can bless you and bless other people in the future that you would have never guessed when the hurts were happening.
00:46:55.987 --> 00:47:10.501
There is beauty in being able to come to God again and again and saying I know how evil this is and what I've done, but I'm just so thankful for your mercy.
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There is good in being reconciled to God and being reconciled to people when you know that none of us deserve it.
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So the beauty of a tough relationship that doesn't just quit when we sometimes bump into each other and hurt each other's feelings.
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The beauty of a tough relationship that doesn't just quit when we sometimes bump into each other and hurt each other's feelings, the beauty of that kind of closeness in a marriage or in a friendship or in a brother-sister relationship or in somebody that's a friend, the beauty that says I'm not going away just because we've had a problem.
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I just see beauty in forgiveness, because it makes us into entirely different, deeper, more mature people.
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So I think that's good.
00:47:51.840 --> 00:47:52.742
All right, jacob.
00:47:52.742 --> 00:47:54.188
Thank you, I appreciate it, man.
00:47:55.461 --> 00:47:56.244
Thank you so much, brother.
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Jacob is a great guy and I appreciate his understanding of forgiveness.
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As he pointed out, forgiveness comes at a cost, whether it's the ultimate sacrifice on the cross or us learning to swallow our pride.
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It's way too easy to downplay what forgiveness really means.
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I don't know about you, but I've heard countless conversations about forgiveness.
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Most of them have a point.
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Forgiveness isn't just for the person who messed up.
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It's also about freeing ourselves from that burden.
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Like a lot of things in Christianity, it's easy to preach about forgiveness.
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We know we're supposed to do it, we know God's done it for us and we know we're called to extend that same grace to others.
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But let's be real.
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This is something every Christian struggles with.
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We've all been hurt, sometimes deeply, and it's important to acknowledge that pain.
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Don't rush into trusting someone again quickly, but, as Jesus taught us in the Lord's Prayer, forgive us our debts as we have forgiven our debtors.
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It goes both ways.
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Forgiveness is a journey and not a quick fix.
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It's a choice we have to make again and again, just like God keeps forgiving us.
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It's part of what heals and restores all relationships.
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So you know, the Balancing the Christian Life conference is November 7th through 9th.
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You still have time to sign up.
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Just go to my website, balancingthechristianlifecom, and sign up for it there.
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It's free, but has places where you can help defray the costs.
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So until next time, let's be good and do good.