Atkins Labcast Episode 62 - Harriet Tarbuck

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In this episode, I zoom with Harriet Harbaugh.
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Harriet is a Melbourne-based uh community organizer, podcaster, photographer.
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She's got a bunch of different uh guys.
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I first met Harriet relating to the photo collective.
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Now we've all well, many of us have been a part of photographic associations and groups.
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But it's very rare that you come across these groups that are that are sort of just there to celebrate art and celebrate photography, not gatekeep, and not build standards and not judge and assess and all this kind of stuff.
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So photo collective is about sharing and building a community, which I found incredibly attractive.
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Harriet is also uh co-podcaster with my guest, not the last episode, the episode before, uh Sally Brownville, uh, for their When Harry Mets Sally podcast, which is a really great listen.
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We'll have links in the show notes.
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And she's a curator and a collaborator, and she teaches at the Photo Studies College.
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I really enjoy this conversation.
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She's got one of the best accents in the world.
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I hope you enjoy this little hour with Harriet Palmer.
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Yeah.
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Hey Harriet, welcome to the podcast.
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Hi, Paul.
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Thanks so much for having me.
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And you're coming to me from where in where in Narm are you?
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Where in Melbourne are you?
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I'm in uh Preston.
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So I've actually just moved house.
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So I have been in Brunswick West for 11 years.
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Oh wow.
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And I've just gone across the north now and now I'm in Preston.
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So not far, but it's a big move after 11 years.
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11 years, and you've you completed the move on the weekend.
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That was like yesterday.
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Uh it was sorry, it was a week ago.
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So this time last week, we were moving.
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Yes.
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So hence why you're still alive right now, because you've you've had a few days where I've just started.
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We're just settling, just starting to recover, um, feeling like this is sort of home.
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Still feel like we're in a little bit of an Airbnb, but getting settled and yeah, feeling feeling good.
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It's it's it's such, I mean, what do they say?
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Divorce, moving, death.
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Yeah, the big ones, right?
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Yeah, they are.
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I think we did really well, actually.
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My my husband and I are both event coordinators, essentially.
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We've got backgrounds in event organizing.
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So we just took it on like a big kind of you know, work event, and we did really well.
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We had one massive fight about three minutes in to the very first day of trying to pack a van, and then we got it out of our systems and everything was great after that.
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So he's not one to go and run and hide and leave you to do it or anything like that as well.
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Oh, no, no, no.
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He's he's been amazing.
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He's been doing everything from you know, loading the vans to painting the walls to cleaning to everything.
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He's he's a rock star.
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That's amazing.
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I wish I I mean, maybe if you could give me his contact details, because I am the worst.
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Like, I hate moving so much.
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Um, like, you know, I just hate moving so much.
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And I I last time it was like almost total collapse.
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And my poor fabulous Kate, she carried us through the whole thing.
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Just go and do something else.
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I think once I'm in gear and being told what to do, but I think it's just such a big mental load change.
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Huge, isn't it?
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You spent your life moving, haven't you?
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I have, yeah.
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Other than this, 11 years.
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So so tell us about it.
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You you're obviously not from around here, although Adelaide people have funny accents.
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Yeah.
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Um, no, I I read that you'd studied in Leeds in the UK.
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So so tell me about your moving about as a child and all that sort of stuff.
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Okay, well, I so I lived in about five, I think I we moved to the fifth country when I was eight.
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Whoa.
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So we we moved a lot.
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So my mum's English and all her family are in England, and my dad's Australian, all his family are in from Sydney.
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And um yeah, they they mum mum and mum and her family moved over in the 60s, um, and so that was the start of it, really.
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And so we've really gone backwards and forwards ever since.
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And when I was younger, mum and dad moved around a lot.
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Dad was a civil engineer, so we went and traveled the world with his work, and mum worked as well.
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And um, yeah, so there was a lot of moving.
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So I think when by the time I was 30, I by the time I moved into the last house when I was 34, I'd lived in 29 houses in my life.
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Wow.
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So it there was a lot of moving.
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Um, and then, you know, the last place I'd been in for 11 years.
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So it's the longest time I've ever lived anywhere.
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So it was it was big, yeah.
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Did you find that the um that the idea of being in one place for 11 years, did that become like a bit more of an anchor for you?
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Because other than that, what is what was your anchor?
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What what sort of allowed you to be comfortable with that man of moving?
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Yeah, it's uh it's really interesting.
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And of course, with the um, you know, the the wisdom of hindsight, you know, you discover all these things sort of about yourself as you as you as you get older and how you coped and what have you.
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And um I think you know, it it has made it was a fantastic way to be brought up and it was, you know, a wonderful experience traveling the world.
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We lived in Asia and the Middle East and all these incredible places.
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Um, so and we, my brother and I, very um, oh, what's the word I'm looking for?
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Um, you know, we can fit into any situation really.
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We're really good at making friends and acquaintances and adapting.
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We can adapt really well.
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Um, and you know, for a long time I thought that that was just the best way that I could have ever, you know, been brought up.
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Um, it wasn't until I had my son, which is why we ended up kind of quite still in one place for a long time, um, that I sort of realized that, you know, there was a lot of um uh disruption with that kind of life as well.
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It was amazing in many ways, but you know, we we moved a lot and we I was always getting ready to leave a place and make friends in a new place and trying to figure out how to hold on to old friends while making new friends, and so there was a lot of kind of disruption there.
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Um, and I think, you know, again with this idea of kind of looking back, I think for me photography was always something that I really clung to, even because I had my first camera when I was sort of six years old, and so photography was something I really crung to to sort of make pictures of the things I was doing and the place I was in to sort of remember it in a way.
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Um, so yeah, that's wild.
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Yeah, I didn't quite re realise it at the time, but looking back, I I think that's you know, I've always been trying to document my life.
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Yeah, yeah.
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How do you how do you feel about?
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I mean, I I love photography for this very same reason, but there is something about it where our memories are loaded because of the photographs.
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And you know, and you taking them is a different story than mum and dad taking them because they then controlling the narrative.
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Yeah.
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How do you feel about when you're looking back in your photography and when you've compared it to what actually happened?
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And of course now you've got a a child of your own.
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You you're sort of reflecting on your childhood and you've chosen not to do what you had done yourself, right?
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So with photography as a record recording tool, have you found it you know, messing with the memories a bit, or is it you feel a a true record of what happened?
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It's so interesting, isn't it?
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That kind of idea of is the thing that happened that you're looking at in the photo, did it actually happen, or is it just the memory that you've created from that picture that you remember, you know?
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Um it's such a really it's a really interesting topic.
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Um Yeah, I think that in many ways, I do think like, you know, nothing's black and white in life, and you know, there's not one answer.
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I think that it's really photography does help us remember.
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It helps us recall, you know, the times in our life that we are photographing.
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I wonder though, that if it because we are constantly being reminded of those by looking at those pictures, I wonder if we forget other things that are not in the pictures.
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I agree, I agree.
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It's just a look, it's a tool, and memories and moments are like magnets, they sort of stick together when they've got a power of their own.
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And a really nicely taken photograph has has the power to, I think, to to really seize that moment.
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And yes, you do gather around it.
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That that really makes sense.
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So, what have you done?
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Like the act of taking photos is one thing, but the process of curating that stuff so it actually becomes a proper record, how have you tackled that?
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Yeah, so well, over my life.
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Yeah, like have you just got a box of six by four prints from over the years, or have you stuck it in albums and are you one of those people who writes your metadata under each photograph?
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Or what do you do?
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Oh, the the digital side of things is a bit of a mess for me, actually, to be honest.
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It's it's it's okay, there's some order there, but um, yeah, when when it was all film photography, I was much more organized.
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I actually have, yeah, having moved, I've got all my photo albums like in the corner over there, you know.
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And so um, yeah, I would take photos and I would get the do the quick prints and then I'd put them all in albums and put them in negatives at the back of the album, you know.
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So everything seemed a lot more organized.
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And yeah, I still have my photo albums that I look through every now and again.
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Um, so that felt for me a lot more organized.
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Um, even when I was sort of in my 20s and early 30s and still using a lot of film photography in that way, um, yeah, I I was still kind of um logging it like that, but it's so much harder digitally, I think.
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It I mean, no matter how much I try and keep my um, you know, my uh shop in order, so to speak, uh, you know, it's just file after file after file, and and then you copy things and you move them and you think, oh, is that a copy or did I just move it?
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Oh, I've got to keep everything, and then you just you just have this abundance of images and files, and it's yeah, it's a lot harder, I think, to control.
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And then of course, because you're taking rather than taking 36 images, you're taking 360.
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Exactly, exactly, exactly.
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And then you kind of always think, oh, well, what if there's a gem in there?
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I've got to keep everything.
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Well, there is, there are gems in there, and the wild thing is that the context changes by as you get older, and and maybe your child becomes interested in these or another family member does.
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And so the context keeps changing.
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So the right, the desire to preserve is like it's so important, isn't it?
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It's like so important, yeah.
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It in fact I spoke to one of my you know closest people in life last night who's in England, and she said that after she last moved, she did a big ceremonial sort of burning session, and she said she burnt loads of pictures.
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And I said, I said, How could you have done that?
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And she goes, No, I had to cleanse.
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It was all stuff that I was holding on to, and have a juice if you need to cleanse stuff, and I was like, Oh my goodness, how could you burn photographs?
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But then that's you know, me holding on to everything.
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Oh yeah, like okay, so you're as bad as I am.
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I'm yeah, yeah, okay.
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I've I've really struck out trying to do digitally what I did film-wise, as far as treating my Lightroom catalog and using all the features that are there.
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And I'm a member of Controlled Vocabulary, which is a group that talks about metadata all the time.
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And you know, it but I feel the robots are probably going to sort it out for us at some stage.
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And you know, I'm I'm also happy for the robots.
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I mean, if there's a good thing about AI, I feel that I mean there's a lot of good things about AI, but I feel that sorting photographs will be one of those things, don't you?
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Yes, delete all the double ups, please.
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Find the ones that I'm yeah, because I suppose if you're sharing a photograph, then you know there's a value because you've sent it to a contact or something like that.
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And if you've looked at it several times or made something with it, then it knows that there's a value in that photo.
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So yeah, the robots will work it out, I reckon one day.
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Will they see the art in it though?
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That's the question.
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You know, or will they are they all are they gonna look at like, oh, this has got a blink in it, this isn't sharp, this is are they is that how they're gonna sort it out, or will they see it?
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Yes, it will.
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They will not see the art.
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Yeah, they will not have your your eye.
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Now, that's the other thing I wanted to talk about.
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The your traveling, you said it it it got you into a situation where you're very good at moving within groups and and making new friends and contacts and that the one thing that has like the beacon that you created in Photo Collective, um, I fell in love with a few years ago when I thought someone is doing something what that I feel is completely um without intention of making money, but it's just out from the heart that is a really important because collaboration is everything in this world.
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Like we're all screwed, robots or whatever, we're screwed without each other.
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Yeah.
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Um and the photo collective, it's in the name.
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Um, and it's a beautiful thing.
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And oh, thank you, Paul.
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I wanted to talk to you about that because where did it come from?
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I think it's it's probably one of the, I mean, I I don't know your photography, I've seen your website, I've combed it, but I think it's probably one of the most beautiful things you've made.
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Tell me about it, where it came from and what was the thinking behind it.
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Oh, thank you.
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That's so such kind words.
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It's really nice to hear, actually, because um sometimes you think in a world that is inundated with photos and groups and award programs, and you you sort of think, uh, you know, are we relevant still sometimes?
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But um, that's really, really lovely to hear.
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Um, so I guess like um in 2013, I was working with Tom.
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So Tom Goldnum, a business partner.
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I was working with him doing event work, and he said he was working on a documentary project that he was doing, and um he said, Oh, I've got a few ideas um I want to talk to you about.
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So I was sort of doing a little bit of like helping him out, just volunteering, helping him out on a few bits and bobs to do with that project.
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And afterwards he said, Oh, I've got a few ideas I want to talk to you about.
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And so we sort of met up for a coffee and had a bit of a chat.
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And he he, because he'd just done this big project, he saw that there was a real um space within the industry for people making project work um and then not being funding for it.
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So because he went to Ghana um with this project and he just couldn't get funding for it, and um it was a real problem.
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So he he sort of came to me with that um and said, Look, I really want to be able to try and fund projects for people make you know that are doing important work.
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Um, and so we sort of mulled that around for a while and realized that that is to start a business there is very hard because you need finance and you need money, and and we didn't have that at the time, we were just starting.
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So um, so we ended up pivoting and going in a few different ways.
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And we started the first thing we started together was Australian photography awards.
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So that became something where we could still celebrate Australian photography, we could still bring community together, we could still celebrate what was happening in this wonderful country of ours, but um we could make a business out of it because as you say, you know, we all do it for the love of it.
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Uh, but you also have to, you know, pay the rent and put food in the fridge.
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Exactly.
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You've got to feed your children, and um, you know, if you can't feed yourself, how are you gonna support others?
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So um we realized that Australian Photography Awards was by far the best way to try and get some income at the same time as trying to do the things we wanted to do, and then it's sort of developed from there.
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So we've had many initiatives over the years.
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Some have um been really successful, some have been quite successful, um, some have had to stop because they they, you know, in the last few years since those lockdown years, um, you know, the world changed.
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And, you know, there's some things that we really love doing, but they just don't make us any money.
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And we need money to keep going and to keep providing.
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And so we've had to kind of put things on hold and focus on other things that will keep our business going and keep our organization going.
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And hopefully, as things kind of settle more and more as time goes on, um, we can bring those other beautiful initiatives back that don't need so much, that don't bring in so much money, but are the things that fill our hearts and souls.
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Yeah.
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I felt I felt the the thing that I found most attractive to it, it didn't have the smell of perfection, determination, and so the over sharpened pencil that all the other awards did.
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It had the storytelling aspect of it and it was gentle and fun.
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And you know, the the awards, I've only been to I think three awards now, and they were just you know h happy, relaxed, yeah, pleasant.
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And I don't I don't I wasn't witness uh to any of the judging process, but I thought these the choices were always strong.
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And but they were gentle and quiet, and it wasn't about perfection and and insane quality and that, which I really struggle with because I think it turns a lot of people away.
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We we don't need more in-focused pictures.
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Um, we need better storytelling.
00:18:23.279 --> 00:18:25.279
And I mean, how sharp can a photo be?
00:18:25.279 --> 00:18:30.640
Like you know, it's just like digital, like how many pixels can you have in here to sharpen it?
00:18:30.799 --> 00:18:36.720
Um I mean it's a dumb metaphor, really, because it's it's about a lot more than that, but it's it's the right, it's the right way to look at it.
00:18:36.720 --> 00:18:38.480
I think the the world would understand that.
00:18:38.480 --> 00:18:45.839
And that that sort of chase for the ultimate image, uh, and then the idea of someone being XYZ of the year type of thing.
00:18:45.839 --> 00:18:46.880
I'd I don't know.
00:18:46.880 --> 00:18:50.880
I just felt when I went to the first awards that it was just such a lovely feeling.
00:18:50.880 --> 00:18:52.480
And I thought, wow, this is cool.
00:18:52.480 --> 00:18:58.160
This is sort of celebrating some beautiful, simple work for people who just love doing what they're doing, you know.
00:18:58.400 --> 00:19:04.000
Well, for us, I think it was a a case of um, you know, what are we bringing that's different?
00:19:04.000 --> 00:19:11.519
You know, there's no point doing this if we're just gonna be celebrating all the same work that everyone else is celebrating, you know?
00:19:11.519 --> 00:19:13.279
And there are crossovers.
00:19:13.279 --> 00:19:20.160
Sometimes things that do well in our awards do well in, you know, the other awards as well, because you know, great photography is great.
00:19:20.160 --> 00:19:27.519
Um, but for us it was very much like our one of our kind of slogans is we want to find meaning and knowledge through photography.
00:19:27.519 --> 00:19:38.319
So, yes, we can make beautiful pictures, yes, you know, we can make sure they're sharp and they're well cropped and they're all these things, but what else is this photograph saying to me?
00:19:38.319 --> 00:19:40.160
You know, is it telling me a story?
00:19:40.160 --> 00:19:41.359
Is it giving me knowledge?
00:19:41.359 --> 00:19:43.119
Is it making me feel emotive?
00:19:43.119 --> 00:19:48.480
Like they're the things that kind of we say what's below the surface of the image.
00:19:48.480 --> 00:19:52.319
So on the surface we see, you know, this beautiful picture.
00:19:52.319 --> 00:19:53.119
What else?
00:19:53.119 --> 00:19:54.160
What else is there?
00:19:54.160 --> 00:19:57.359
You know, and for us, that that what else is really important.
00:19:58.000 --> 00:19:58.960
Yeah, I think so.
00:19:58.960 --> 00:19:59.759
And I think most people.
00:19:59.759 --> 00:20:01.440
People get that.
00:20:01.440 --> 00:20:07.440
And I think a lot of people who not interested in awards found themselves, wow, this is an interesting group to be a part of.
00:20:07.440 --> 00:20:10.400
You know, and I think that's where the collective is is a strong thing.
00:20:10.400 --> 00:20:14.559
Well, I hope I hope it finds its way forward because the the awards are one thing.
00:20:14.559 --> 00:20:23.599
I really enjoyed the magazine when it was running, and I understand your partnership with Memento would have made that really tricky for that to stop because physical print is tough.
00:20:23.759 --> 00:20:25.039
And it's really tough.
00:20:25.359 --> 00:20:26.640
Magazines are even tougher.
00:20:26.880 --> 00:20:27.839
Yeah, yeah, yeah.
00:20:27.839 --> 00:20:29.920
And they were Memento were great.
00:20:29.920 --> 00:20:35.920
They we had a relationship with them where they they printed it and we distributed it and made it.
00:20:35.920 --> 00:20:37.839
So, you know, it was a real partnership.
00:20:37.839 --> 00:20:42.720
And um yeah, I mean, that's something like you know, what I alluded to before.
00:20:42.720 --> 00:20:44.880
We really love to keep that going.
00:20:44.880 --> 00:20:53.119
The the magazine, you know, it covered its costs and you know, but it didn't like bring in, like it's not going to keep Photo Collective going.
00:20:53.119 --> 00:21:12.559
Um, but if we can find another partner that is, you know, we can work with um in that way where we we're not kind of doing that big outlet on the on the print side of things, um, and there's a collaboration there that someone, you know, can um work with us on, you know, we would love to start that up again.
00:21:12.559 --> 00:21:25.039
Um, I think the other thing is um in the last couple of years, look, just being very honest here actually, um, we've we all had to kind of find how we were going to make it work within our own lives as well.
00:21:25.039 --> 00:21:36.880
So um, you know, Tom got a full-time job, um, Gussie, who's the the third part of our little trifecta, he um has been doing a master's degree for the last couple of years.
00:21:36.880 --> 00:21:38.559
He's just finishing up now.
00:21:38.559 --> 00:21:41.920
Um, you know, I I've been getting more and more into teaching.
00:21:41.920 --> 00:21:46.079
So we all have other lives that we're trying to kind of facilitate as well.
00:21:46.079 --> 00:21:49.920
And we're sort of we need to figure out how photo collective fits into that.
00:21:49.920 --> 00:21:52.000
Um, because it's not this thing that can.
00:21:52.000 --> 00:22:05.119
We were sort of hoping as we as we went into lockdown, um, you know, we thought it would, well, before those COVID years, we thought it would be the thing that would, you know, be our main uh careers or our main jobs.
00:22:05.119 --> 00:22:09.599
Um once the world changed, um, we realized it wasn't going to be.
00:22:09.599 --> 00:22:11.759
And so we had to adapt that a little bit.
00:22:11.759 --> 00:22:16.720
So um things have kind of again quieted down a little bit.
00:22:16.720 --> 00:22:23.200
We don't necessarily have the time to put magazines together and to find the funding for that at the moment.
00:22:23.200 --> 00:22:29.759
Um, what we do have the time for is to keep Australian Photography Awards going, which is the heart of Photo Collective.
00:22:29.759 --> 00:22:41.680
And then hopefully, you know, as time goes on, we that that time might loosen up a little bit so that we can invest a little bit more into kind of making that magazine happen again.
00:22:41.680 --> 00:22:52.480
And then hopefully, you know, if we can find the time, then that could bring in, you know, attention and a bit of money, and maybe a collective will be the thing that sustains us in the end.
00:22:52.799 --> 00:22:55.440
Yeah, well, I mean, the pragmatism though is so important.
00:22:55.440 --> 00:23:02.640
And I think a big part of the problems the world's in at the moment is that a lot of people in control are not prepared to be pragmatic.
00:23:02.640 --> 00:23:12.160
They're being and they're not being nostalgic because that's a gentle term, but they're just clinging to the past to hopefully wind the world back to 100 years or something.
00:23:12.160 --> 00:23:12.960
I don't know what they want.
00:23:12.960 --> 00:23:16.799
Um, certainly not looking at the world as it is now and what it needs, are they?
00:23:17.359 --> 00:23:18.079
Yeah, exactly.
00:23:18.079 --> 00:23:18.480
Exactly.
00:23:18.720 --> 00:23:19.599
Yeah, it's been a tricky year.
00:23:19.599 --> 00:23:21.519
How's the how's the year been for you guys?
00:23:21.519 --> 00:23:24.559
I mean, uh, like I know you're a commercial photographer as well.
00:23:24.559 --> 00:23:27.279
Uh you you've got a great website with some beautiful work.
00:23:27.279 --> 00:23:30.319
Um, how have you found the the the year been?
00:23:30.880 --> 00:23:32.960
Yeah, it's been a really interesting one.
00:23:32.960 --> 00:23:40.799
So I would say for me, because I got into teaching, um, so I've been teaching for the last this is my fourth year teaching.
00:23:40.799 --> 00:23:41.359
Oh wow.
00:23:41.359 --> 00:23:44.559
And I've got that bit of stability now, which has been really great.
00:23:44.559 --> 00:23:48.559
So, and this year I went to two and a half days.
00:23:48.559 --> 00:23:53.279
So, half a week I'm teaching, which has been really, really great for me.
00:23:53.279 --> 00:24:00.000
Um, it's given me that stability and really enforced a bit of routine, which you don't often have when you're freelancing.
00:24:00.000 --> 00:24:02.160
Um, so that's been really, really great.
00:24:02.160 --> 00:24:11.519
And actually, so for me personally, this year has been um a lot more stable because of what the boys are up to, photo collective.
00:24:11.519 --> 00:24:16.079
We've decided to put Australian Photography Awards to the beginning of next year.
00:24:16.079 --> 00:24:26.079
Um, normally we have our event in October, but October's a crazy time of year for our industry, and we've always seem to be trying to fit in amongst all these other things that are happening.
00:24:26.079 --> 00:24:30.799
So, for quite a few years, we've been wanting to bring it to the beginning half of the year.
00:24:30.799 --> 00:24:32.160
So that's what we've done.
00:24:32.160 --> 00:24:38.880
So we're just building up for it now, and we'll be opening entries over the summer, and we'll be doing it at the beginning of this year.
00:24:38.880 --> 00:24:46.559
So, this year for me, we haven't run APA, which has been um, you know, a lot of work that I've not had to do.
00:24:46.960 --> 00:24:50.079
Um you feel the breeze of I felt the breeze of it.
00:24:50.160 --> 00:24:52.880
Yeah, and then I've been teaching, which has got the stability.
00:24:52.880 --> 00:24:54.559
I still work commercially.
00:24:54.559 --> 00:24:57.359
Uh, I'm not chasing that so much anymore.
00:24:57.359 --> 00:25:05.200
Um, I I have about four or five clients that give me, you know, enough work throughout the year, and then I often get, you know, the odd jobs as well.
00:25:05.200 --> 00:25:07.680
And that's that works for me now.
00:25:07.680 --> 00:25:08.640
Oh, that's great.
00:25:08.640 --> 00:25:15.119
So I I found actually this year I found uh a real balance, um, which has been really nice.
00:25:15.119 --> 00:25:21.519
And I know a lot of people can't say that because the industry on a whole has been really tough this year.
00:25:22.240 --> 00:25:22.880
That's been a few years.
00:25:22.880 --> 00:25:41.759
But you know, you again your pragmatism to to take on work and and and sort of build that work up, uh, take on to two and a half days, has given you time to enjoy your photography, probably if you're other than family, you know, give you breathing space so you're not kind of like wrestling with it, trying to get more out of it.
00:25:41.759 --> 00:25:43.759
Um really sensible decision.
00:25:43.759 --> 00:25:45.839
PSC's a fabulous organization.
00:25:45.839 --> 00:25:47.200
Have you fitted in well?
00:25:47.200 --> 00:25:49.039
You know, you've four years to been teaching there.
00:25:49.200 --> 00:25:49.440
Yeah.
00:25:49.599 --> 00:25:51.279
Um did you study there at all?
00:25:51.440 --> 00:25:54.240
Or or I didn't know, I didn't study there.
00:25:54.240 --> 00:26:02.559
Um, in the end of 2021, um, Daniel Berker Smith actually approached Tom and I and said, Do you want to teach this class?
00:26:02.559 --> 00:26:06.880
Um, which is the business and industry class for the bachelor degree.
00:26:06.880 --> 00:26:19.119
So at the end of the bachelor degree in the last two tiers, um, we run a business and industry class where they have to do a mentor program, reach out into industry and network, and they also essentially have to write a business plan.
00:26:19.119 --> 00:26:26.799
And so he actually approached us, he was the dean of PSE at the time, um, and he approached us to run that class, which was fantastic.
00:26:26.799 --> 00:26:30.640
So it was really good that first year I did it with Tom, which was fantastic.
00:26:30.640 --> 00:26:36.319
It's good to have that buffer, um, uh, which was really, really great.
00:26:36.319 --> 00:26:39.440
Um, and then Tom went on to do other things and I stayed.
00:26:39.440 --> 00:26:42.160
And I I've loved being there actually.
00:26:42.160 --> 00:26:44.079
I really I love working for them.
00:26:44.079 --> 00:26:46.880
They've gone through quite a lot of changes in the last few years as well.
00:26:46.880 --> 00:26:56.480
They've just been bought out this year, and so Julie Moss is um no longer CEO and or managing director, and so um, yeah, big, big changes there.
00:26:56.480 --> 00:27:09.680
But the team there's great, the the other lecturers are wonderful, all the other staff are really fantastic, and the conveners, um uh Serena, Christian, and Steph are just so like they're so supportive and they just have your back all the time.
00:27:09.680 --> 00:27:12.319
So um I really enjoy it there.
00:27:12.319 --> 00:27:14.160
I feel like it's my home base now.
00:27:14.400 --> 00:27:15.119
Oh, that's great.
00:27:15.119 --> 00:27:17.200
Did the buyout make you anxious at all?
00:27:17.200 --> 00:27:28.720
Because, you know, sometimes I you know, you hear about organizations being consumed by larger organizations, and I assume it would be someone who who owns a whole lot of RTOs that's taken.
00:27:28.720 --> 00:27:30.559
It can make did it make you anxious?
00:27:30.880 --> 00:27:36.559
Oh, look, it was, you know, it there's always a shakeup that happens when these things go on.
00:27:36.559 --> 00:27:44.160
And, you know, you they, you know, these organizations come in and they say nothing's gonna change, and of course things change, you know.
00:27:44.160 --> 00:27:49.119
They're they're trying to shake things up and and do things to their, you know, the best way they know how.
00:27:49.119 --> 00:27:51.920
Um, but for the most part, it's been pretty good.
00:27:51.920 --> 00:28:00.000
There were a couple of times where it's all churned and then it settles, and then someone else takes over and it churns, and then it settles again.
00:28:00.000 --> 00:28:11.359
So um, yeah, look, it it was yeah, I'm not gonna lie, like it was a it was a um interesting period when when they came in and took over.
00:28:11.680 --> 00:28:12.960
It's dramatic of you.
00:28:14.160 --> 00:28:20.799
But look, it's been great, and it it it for the the day-to-day running of it for us, it feels very stable still.
00:28:20.799 --> 00:28:25.279
It's it still feels like you know, PSC, the deck like how it has been.
00:28:25.599 --> 00:28:26.160
Yeah, great.
00:28:26.160 --> 00:28:27.039
Yeah, that's fabulous.
00:28:27.039 --> 00:28:28.799
I mean, it's got a great reputation for that.
00:28:28.799 --> 00:28:37.759
And um, I just you know, like the uh as a as a seem seemingly nervous person, I always think great institution like that, what's next?
00:28:37.759 --> 00:28:39.279
You know, are they how are they doing?
00:28:39.279 --> 00:28:42.480
And I mean the reports from the students, everyone's still having a great time.
00:28:42.480 --> 00:28:44.000
So that's great.
00:28:44.000 --> 00:28:52.960
I I know here in South Australia our Centre for Creative Photography had a similar thing happen and they've struggled a bit, they've lost their physical space for their dark rooms and all that sort of business.
00:28:52.960 --> 00:29:04.319
And and it and I think uh I think there's something about and I'm I'm not trying to I'm not being the old guy in the room about this, but there's something about using film and and dark rooms to understand.
00:29:04.319 --> 00:29:20.240
You know, I I think when making art in general, and we'll get onto art next, but I was just thinking it's important to have a bit of understanding of art history so that you know that you're not because we're all influenced by imagery and imagery from whatever century it was, we're influenced by it.
00:29:20.240 --> 00:29:29.839
And it's nice to know what our influences are and respect it and you know, and so I think there's something about studying it and and building on it that's really important.
00:29:30.640 --> 00:29:31.759
Yeah, I agree.
00:29:32.799 --> 00:29:42.319
So when when did art when did recording photographs to sort of understand where you've come from or where you're going and what where you are right now, when did it pivot to art for you?
00:29:42.319 --> 00:29:49.279
Because there is definitely, I mean, I can see photojournalism in your work, but it's another edge you're seeing something beyond that.
00:29:49.279 --> 00:29:52.799
What where does that come from and what are you trying to say with your work?
00:29:53.119 --> 00:29:54.799
Yeah, that's it's really interesting.
00:29:54.799 --> 00:29:59.119
I I'm just like this is I I feel like it's quite a new thing for me actually.
00:29:59.119 --> 00:30:10.079
Um, and I feel like, you know, I've always been documenting, like I said, kind of my life and where I've been, and and not even like sometimes I look back and I think, oh my god, if only I was a bit more intentional.
00:30:10.079 --> 00:30:16.160
I could have been really prolific and been making all these projects for decades, but um, you know, I was never like that.
00:30:16.160 --> 00:30:23.519
So I it was just more for me, just photographing, you know, what was happening and and my friends and what we were doing.
00:30:23.519 --> 00:30:36.799
Um, but it's really just in the in the last decade that I've started, and even you know, a decade ago when we started Australian Photography Awards, I I like I couldn't never have called myself an artist.
00:30:36.799 --> 00:30:46.640
Like that just it felt so foreign and felt like it wasn't like a photographer, yes, a documentary photographer, a creative maybe, but an artist, I just felt like that wasn't me.
00:30:46.640 --> 00:30:48.640
I I wasn't creative like that.
00:30:48.640 --> 00:31:08.960
Um, but I guess in more recent years, um maybe the influence of seeing all this amazing work that comes through the awards and that comes through Photo Collective has kind of challenged me to push myself outside of just um what I've always done, which is document documenting.
00:31:08.960 --> 00:31:17.200
And um, when uh Tom actually gave me a film camera at the end of 2019 and said, I think you should have a play with this.
00:31:17.200 --> 00:31:23.119
And I I I grew up in the dark rooms, like when I studied in the UK, I was in the dark rooms the whole time.
00:31:23.119 --> 00:31:26.559
All my pro all my assessments were done with film photography.
00:31:26.559 --> 00:31:30.240
And um, I've always done a little bit of it over the years.
00:31:30.240 --> 00:31:38.400
Um, but he gave me um a Yeshika twin lens and he said, you know, get involved with this, I think you'll really love it.
00:31:38.400 --> 00:31:53.359
And then again, not to harp on about it, but then then the world closed down and we were in lockdown and and there was no work, and so I had all this time to actually like love photography again, and it not to be my job, but to be the thing that I wanted to photograph.
00:31:53.359 --> 00:32:11.680
And so I think that's when I was started using film cameras, and I started, you know, having that time to really love it, and I think that's when I started finding like a bit more of my own kind of uh messaging or style that I wanted to say through the photography.
00:32:11.680 --> 00:32:35.519
Um, and now I think like interestingly, I was having this conversation a few weeks ago with someone, um, and this idea of an artist, like we're all artists, I think, you know, and and there's this really weighted kind of um uh kind of uh feeling that comes on that word that you have to be kind of exhibiting at the NGV or you have to be renowned or be a name.
00:32:35.519 --> 00:32:49.920
But actually, if you're creating your art, you're you're an artist, whether that's a doodle, you know, or whether you're um, you know, or whether you're kind of exhibiting at the NGV, that it's all a level of being an artist.
00:32:49.920 --> 00:33:00.720
So I'm trying to just like let those um uh um parameters kind of go a little bit and just um be in that place.
00:33:01.039 --> 00:33:10.720
So do you think that that sort of not willing to call yourself an artist was because you know you in your growing up that was that was not a thing that was often talked about.
00:33:10.720 --> 00:33:17.200
I mean, father being a civil engineer, um you know, that's not technically classed as an artistic pursuit.
00:33:17.200 --> 00:33:21.599
However, great civil engineering is is art, you know.
00:33:22.079 --> 00:33:23.440
Pretty creative and artistic.
00:33:23.839 --> 00:33:34.000
I know, and and history has shown like it might not be at the time uh considered so, but when you look at back at great work, it's people say it's it's it's art.
00:33:34.000 --> 00:33:40.720
It's um I mean there's the whole adage that if you make it and hang it, uh it's art, you know.
00:33:41.039 --> 00:33:41.440
Totally.
00:33:41.920 --> 00:33:44.880
Um but you've only just moved to subscribing to that.
00:33:44.880 --> 00:33:46.160
Is that what what I'm hearing?
00:33:46.480 --> 00:33:53.920
I think I'm just like trying to relax on the idea of not not worrying about putting too much pressure on on it, you know.
00:33:53.920 --> 00:34:09.840
And I think um I I've had a lot of imposter syndrome in my life, and especially since entering the photography industry and starting photo collective and and what have you.
00:34:09.840 --> 00:34:15.280
And I think I've kind of got to a point now I'm in my mid-40s and I'm like, oh, I'm over this.
00:34:15.280 --> 00:34:17.440
I don't wanna I don't wanna have this anymore.
00:34:17.840 --> 00:34:18.320
Too hard.
00:34:18.559 --> 00:34:25.199
You know, it's just like I don't want to worry about what other people think or worry about whether I should be here or should be doing this or not.
00:34:25.199 --> 00:34:30.239
I am here, and maybe that's just a little bit with that little bit of age, you know.
00:34:30.239 --> 00:34:39.599
I've been work doing this for 20 years now almost, and if I don't deserve to be here now, then you know, if you don't like it, don't listen or don't subscribe, you know.
00:34:39.599 --> 00:34:42.159
This is what I'm doing.
00:34:42.320 --> 00:34:50.800
So I think like bold and brave, but it's it's it's so important to to live it for yourself and not not for what other people might think.
00:34:51.199 --> 00:34:51.840
Totally.
00:34:51.840 --> 00:34:53.599
And so I think it's all tied up.
00:34:53.599 --> 00:35:03.039
Like I'm sick of and that that's not to say I'm never like, you know, never have that kind of fear of like, you know, whether I should be there or not, but um, but I'm just like I'm over it.
00:35:03.039 --> 00:35:13.199
I'm not gonna worry about like, you know, like I was asked to do a panel discussion on marketing and communications a few weeks ago, and I was like, oh, this isn't really my wheelhouse.
00:35:13.199 --> 00:35:16.239
Can we talk about storytelling and photography, please?
00:35:16.239 --> 00:35:24.320
You know, and and the lady, Christina Simons, was like, yes, but you're an entrepreneur, Harriet, and you do marketing in all your businesses.
00:35:24.320 --> 00:35:35.039
And I was like, oh, well, when you put it like that, and then I got on this panel with these actual marketing people, and I was like, Oh, I think I held my own in that, you know.
00:35:35.039 --> 00:35:44.320
And so it's like I've just I'm gonna do me, and I'm not gonna spend the next, you know, 20 years of my life worrying whether I should be here or not.
00:35:44.320 --> 00:35:46.960
If I'm not supposed to be here, don't invite me.
00:35:47.440 --> 00:35:48.559
That's wild, isn't it?
00:35:48.559 --> 00:35:53.039
No, well, I mean, I from an outside I never detected any of this.
00:35:53.039 --> 00:35:58.639
Um, and I think it's just the bulk, like I've I've been a part of all of the industry associations.
00:35:58.639 --> 00:36:04.960
Uh, you know, I've been president of this and you know, I I believe in them and I love seeing people getting together doing stuff.
00:36:04.960 --> 00:36:08.159
But you know, starting your own.
00:36:08.159 --> 00:36:13.679
Like my I've been told we should do it because, you know, it like it needs to be done.
00:36:13.679 --> 00:36:15.199
I'm going, what?
00:36:15.199 --> 00:36:30.559
And and and and then I I mean honestly, the the the the yardstick has been what I feel from an outsider the polish and success that you guys put on for the collective, I thought, I don't know if I could do it like that.
00:36:30.559 --> 00:36:35.199
Um and and and have it, you know, with have it feel so finished.
00:36:35.199 --> 00:36:40.239
I your imposter syndrome, I think it's uh it sounds like it's in you're right, it's inside your head and that's it.
00:36:40.320 --> 00:36:43.599
It doesn't I think we all have it to a certain degree, don't we?
00:36:43.599 --> 00:36:49.760
It's just whether when we it's whether we choose to just squash it down a little bit or or listen to it, I guess.
00:36:50.320 --> 00:36:53.519
And it probably keeps us all fresh and makes sure we're not getting humble, you know.
00:36:53.519 --> 00:36:59.280
Well, that's the other thing, because otherwise you'd probably be a psychopath or you know, something like that.
00:36:59.280 --> 00:37:00.719
Um super interesting.
00:37:00.719 --> 00:37:09.920
So tell me about um with with the making of art and the studying, are you finding because you're you're you're still teaching business at PSC?
00:37:10.079 --> 00:37:10.639
Yeah, yeah.
00:37:10.960 --> 00:37:16.960
Okay, so do is it do the does the does the the institution have a lecturer's show or something?
00:37:16.960 --> 00:37:18.159
What what are you showing next?
00:37:18.159 --> 00:37:22.880
And what's what are you working on private work inside that or is it just all a bit much at the moment?
00:37:23.199 --> 00:37:30.960
Yeah, so it's interesting because it's always I always say unfortunately it's a last thing in all the list of things I do that as in the personal work.
00:37:30.960 --> 00:37:31.360
Yeah.
00:37:31.360 --> 00:37:46.639
Um uh yeah, it's uh it's unfortunately the sort of the last thing that comes in, but um I am I'm actually so uh Tom and Gussie, who are working at Deacon, are putting on a little show that they've asked me to be a part of, so that's really nice.
00:37:46.639 --> 00:37:52.480
I'm starting to kind of look through work and select some stuff to be a part of that group show, which is really nice.
00:37:52.480 --> 00:38:01.599
Um and I've actually, like I said, in the last few weeks, I've done a few little talks actually, and I'm I'm thinking it might be time to kind of get something out there.
00:38:01.599 --> 00:38:14.000
So um uh a while ago I did a talk at a camera club and I kind of went onto my website and realized I hadn't updated it in quite a few years, and it was very, very stagnant.
00:38:14.000 --> 00:38:21.360
And um, so I quickly kind of spent a couple of hours just throwing some stuff on there, and it's not my website's not great.
00:38:21.360 --> 00:38:25.199
Um, but I just thought I need to put some more updated stuff on there.
00:38:25.199 --> 00:38:36.880
And by the time I spent a few hours on there, I thought, oh, I've got some, I'm doing stuff, you know, I've got some stuff, I've got some projects here, I've been doing stuff, and so I think it's really important.
00:38:36.880 --> 00:38:47.679
Like we often sit at home on our computers with our, you know, light rooms or our capture ones or whatever it is we use, and we and we, you know, we're kind of doing stuff in our own little bubble.
00:38:47.679 --> 00:39:15.760
But if it's not going out into the world and if it's not kind of you're not sort of engaging with it in that kind of way, then I feel like well it's harder to feel like you're doing something, you know, even if it's just kind of putting it out on your website or putting it out on Instagram or um showing people at a workshop or whatever it is, um it if there's got to be sort of some kind of point to it.
00:39:15.760 --> 00:39:22.159
And you know, for some people, the point might be just to make and not not show it, and that's fine as well.
00:39:22.159 --> 00:39:43.360
But I guess for me, um I've realized that you know, by putting it out, even just in little drips and drabs, um, it it makes me feel like, yeah, maybe I can say I'm an artist and I'm working on something, and and even just putting it on the website and putting all those projects on there, it's like, oh, I'm actually I'm not as stagnant as what I thought I was.
00:39:43.679 --> 00:39:44.239
Yeah, yeah.
00:39:44.239 --> 00:39:53.760
And the risk, I think the risk of testing yourself with projects, regardless, I mean you're not getting a gold star from it, but you're putting it out there and then you're listening to what people say about it.
00:39:53.760 --> 00:39:58.719
And I think there's some value about the light of day with that sort of work, isn't there?
00:39:59.039 --> 00:39:59.280
Totally.
00:39:59.280 --> 00:40:01.519
making project work Paul?
00:40:01.760 --> 00:40:03.039
Yeah, yeah, I am.
00:40:03.039 --> 00:40:12.480
And it's very like uh I was always someone who worked from my back catalogue and pulled things together from it.
00:40:12.480 --> 00:40:18.159
And I was always wondering whether and this is a good question for you, whether that because you've said you've done the same thing.
00:40:18.159 --> 00:40:27.519
You've got a a show that's coming up that that that's um that Tom's a part of and Gus and you're thinking of you're going through finding some work to go with it.
00:40:27.519 --> 00:40:38.320
Now I've always done that and I've felt is the point the flip over perhaps for me is it about oh I'm going to intentionally make something for this show and am I going to tackle that?
00:40:38.320 --> 00:41:06.800
I feel that that keeps me on my toes more because the last show that I was in that I thought I want to try a completely new technique and do something different rather than the same old you know I'm I'm typically medium format uh reportage style stuff, you know, sort of quirky muted looking things but um you know sort of grand and I've always done really big things but uh I I I figured that oh there's a limit to that I know how to do it.
00:41:06.800 --> 00:41:11.920
And I just want to you're in the industry you're playing with the tools you're talking to people all the time.
00:41:11.920 --> 00:41:13.599
It feels like you should be a part of it.
00:41:13.599 --> 00:41:15.119
I think it it helps, doesn't it?
00:41:15.360 --> 00:41:17.119
Yeah, I think so absolutely.
00:41:17.119 --> 00:41:35.920
And it kind of encourages you it makes you feel like for me it's making me feel good like having this conversation with you talking about art talking about the work um even like yeah I was putting some work together to center someone and just even little things like that knowing that other people are seeing it it's going out there.
00:41:35.920 --> 00:41:44.000
Yeah it just makes you kind of feel like oh I'm active I'm not being passive I'm being active you know even if it's just in a small way.
00:41:44.400 --> 00:41:51.039
And you know with the magazine and and your previous work you you've always been curating as part of oh yeah what you do.
00:41:51.039 --> 00:41:53.119
Now that's a that's an interesting role.
00:41:53.119 --> 00:41:59.519
I mean I think I really think curators are going to save the world because they're kind of deciding what are we going to show?
00:41:59.519 --> 00:42:09.760
Yeah yeah you know they're they're you know what is in and what is out without being Tim Gunn mean you know it's like it's it's actually helping putting the story together and hold it.
00:42:09.760 --> 00:42:12.639
How do you feel about curation these days?
00:42:12.639 --> 00:42:17.119
Is it something that you're just doing a bit of or are you Yeah I love it.
00:42:17.280 --> 00:42:22.559
I love um I love looking at work and finding the story in it.
00:42:22.559 --> 00:42:27.280
Yeah I love I love working with people um and doing that.
00:42:27.280 --> 00:43:09.280
Yeah it's really really rewarding I think and you know I think a lot of times photographers can come to me with like a whole lot of work and they they kind of they can't see the wood through the trees because there's they're too invested into it and being able to kind of go oh this this this this and and and yeah make us make the sequence happen uh make the sequence sing um is really beautiful I I really there's something about kind of putting those images next to each other and like seeing it it sort of like rises almost um yeah I love it I love it it's really great and it's working with other people as well I love that kind of collaboration.
00:43:09.599 --> 00:43:13.119
Yeah collaboration's an amazing uh you know an amazing thing.
00:43:13.360 --> 00:43:14.559
Yeah it's fantastic.
00:43:14.880 --> 00:43:21.679
Do do you find at um uh photo studies college that you're involved in any of the art side of the college at all?
00:43:21.920 --> 00:43:50.400
Yeah so I'm actually I teach another course as well which is airfolio um it's for the earlier tiers so tier one and two um yeah so I I do a folio class with them so it's really wonderful there actually and not only am I I'm sort of seeing um students as they first come into the college and opening their minds up to not only different genres but different themes of photography and helping them work towards a genre or a theme and making a story within their photography.
00:43:50.400 --> 00:43:53.199
So the real like nuts and bolts of photography.
00:43:53.199 --> 00:44:03.199
And then at the other end I'm like figuring out what they want to do and getting them connected into industry and figuring out how we get them from being a student to what they want to do.
00:44:03.199 --> 00:44:10.639
So yeah I I in the business side of things I don't really see many photos um but in the folio side I see lots.
00:44:10.639 --> 00:44:12.559
So it's a good balance.
00:44:13.039 --> 00:44:33.119
It was interesting um when I interviewed uh Sally a week or so ago um she made a comment that it really stopped in my tracks because it kind of reversed everything that I thought was going on and maybe I'm just thinking Adelaide centric here but I said to her I didn't think there are any jobs in photography but there are plenty of business opportunities.
00:44:33.119 --> 00:44:58.800
And she said no no no no scrap that there's plenty of job opportunities in photography there are companies hiring photographers you know major corporations brands in Australia that are hire now you are as a teacher um uh of for of business I would think uh you would be the hero of PSC because you're teaching people how to make a how to feed themselves with their love.
00:44:58.800 --> 00:45:04.719
Um are there jobs in photography or is Sally dealing with it's a Nissan States thing?
00:45:04.719 --> 00:45:08.000
Because I don't think Adelaide there's anyone getting any jobs as a photographer.
00:45:08.239 --> 00:45:19.599
Oh it's so tricky isn't it I did hear that uh her say that um on the podcast um yeah it's just so tricky I think I think there's lots of work out there if you're willing to do it.
00:45:19.599 --> 00:45:36.400
It might not be necessarily the um uh you know the thing that you envisioned when you wanted to be a photographer um but there's a lot of work to be done and there's a lot of work to get paid for and then that would pay you for your time to do the thing that you love.
00:45:36.400 --> 00:45:40.320
So um I think there are there are work jobs out there.
00:45:40.320 --> 00:45:49.599
I also think that um what I say to my students is like in this day and age diversifying your practice is the most important thing.
00:45:49.599 --> 00:45:57.840
So no one very few people are just a photographer anymore and very few people are hired for just being a photographer.
00:45:57.840 --> 00:46:18.239
Most people need a little bit of videography in their wheel belt they need a little bit of social media or content training um bit of graphic design maybe so um yeah I'd say more than uh that's the most important thing that like what else can you kind of bring to the table?
00:46:18.239 --> 00:46:32.239
And if it is just photography, how are we going to um yeah try and figure out how you can just like stay in that lane because a lot of people are needing uh a multifaceted kind of multi-dimensional worker now.
00:46:32.559 --> 00:46:50.159
Yeah I mean I loved um Sally's comment about she and her partner have always worked out one of them will have a full-time job and whilst the other can do their crazy whatever's and I think that's that's genius and I I think if anything I've seen probably since the pandemic although it was so strange.
00:46:50.159 --> 00:47:00.320
I mean you guys the the the context with which Victoria took it you guys really saved the rest of Australia I think any rate by the severity of your lockdowns.
00:47:00.320 --> 00:47:22.320
We all had a nice isolated little state and we were allowed to move about quite well and I know how much you guys suffered I'm taking away in any aspect but some strange things did happen uh during lockdown and I think photographers did in summer circumstances quite well not you know not long afterwards and there was a good couple of strong years that that worked from it.
00:47:22.320 --> 00:47:40.480
But in this period probably maybe I'm talking about my life as um you know I'm 55 so I think I was born in 1970 you're 1980 aren't you eighty yeah yeah yeah um so maybe in the last sort of 20 years the most the things I've seen mostly is people having to not be a full-time photographer anymore.
00:47:40.480 --> 00:48:22.559
They have to change their and that there's something about the desperation of trying to make a full-time living out of something or at least get rich and buy the Porsche whatever the whatever thing you're told you could do by the by the um not so won't say marketing people already spoke nicely about marketing people but you know the you know the the the business hypers the yeah yeah the influencers the influencers yeah um I I think you know yeah that aside I think relaxing and taking and not trying to ring a ring the life out of photography is a a really important thing because it's it is an art form even if you're trying to do a business to it and art never seems to survive when one is struggling for money.
00:48:22.559 --> 00:48:26.880
You know we always said a struggling artist makes the best art but we all know that was bullshit.
00:48:26.960 --> 00:49:16.320
We all know that totally and also like that poor struggling artist like why do we have to struggle why can't we just be artists why do we have to have to struggle bit but um we watch Netflix and we all know Netflix is just artists you know on top of a few business people like a ton of artists making beautiful things some of them getting paid very little yeah and yet we it's our drug at the moment it's I know more more maybe not just Netflix but you know all of them yeah yeah it's all good but it's interesting so it when I sort of took on the course or when Tom and I took on the course um it was very much steered to having a freelance photography practice like that was the business plan was steered to having a freelance photography practice and um you know you're gonna be a sole trader and what are you going to do in photography?
00:49:16.320 --> 00:49:27.599
And now I'm just when when the new class comes in I'm just I just say you know the most important thing is to tailor this business plan to exactly what you want.
00:49:27.599 --> 00:49:54.880
Don't tailor it to a freelance business practice if you want to work full time at another job and do photography on the side you know let's figure out how that photography is going to sustain itself and hopefully make you a little bit of money but if going out and getting a full-time job is more your wheelhouse so that you can do photography for the love of it and hopefully maybe those that balance will shift over time and that's great.
00:49:54.880 --> 00:50:08.960
You know and I think that's a big change that's happening um now that yeah that there's this sort of you don't have to necessarily go gangbusters into like advertising photography.
00:50:12.000 --> 00:50:19.440
There's much more flexibility yeah yeah it's so interesting and I I I quite like the more relaxed feeling about it.
00:50:19.440 --> 00:50:27.440
I remember the AIPP saying well they're possibly still arguing that you really shouldn't be a member if you're not a full-time photographer.
00:50:27.440 --> 00:51:09.840
And I I know that's not reality and I I'm just saying there probably will be a percentage of the those who want to see that that institute uh thrive again would be saying but if this is not a reality it's um it's that well it might be reality it's a reality for some I mean a lot of my closest friends are full-time photographers um but I think it's not particularly relevant to ignore those that are mixing it up because they're doing beautiful beautiful work otherwise I mean look at Rowena Meadows work you know she's she's a um you know she's a a psychologist um and she's a family photographer and she doesn't particularly want to drive photography harder because it means she could would photograph less interesting people.
00:51:09.840 --> 00:51:16.800
Yeah um yeah and I think it's it's uh like genius to to to think that through and be relaxed about that.
00:51:17.119 --> 00:51:21.119
And and both those sides of what she's doing really influence the other as well.
00:51:21.119 --> 00:51:41.599
You know she's learning so much from the photography side that influences her therapy practice and vice versa you know you can see that kind of even in the you know the you look at the yard trips that she does and they're so fun and bright and kooky but there's so much meaning and kind of um psychology within those images as well.
00:51:41.920 --> 00:51:42.960
I think it was always there.
00:51:43.199 --> 00:52:06.000
Her curiosity her curiosity for way people think and live yeah is has been there her entire life and yeah yeah well she did psychology when she was younger she did it for photography yeah yeah but I would I would bet that as a 10 year old she was looking at people working them out yeah yeah I would bet that too yeah yeah yeah yeah yeah I say tell me how do you like being a podcaster?
00:52:06.239 --> 00:52:20.400
Oh it's wonderful really yeah I really I really enjoy it um it's so good at it you two the conversations I just love and the banter between the two of you is is brilliant.
00:52:20.719 --> 00:52:45.679
Well you've got to kind of like yeah there's a bit of stepping on toes and a bit of trying to get a word in edgeway sometimes on both sides I think yeah you both are chatty patties you really are very chatty and we both you know we end up going down our tangents and we want to kind of keep going and then the other one wants to take over and but I think it adds a good dynamic to um the conversation but I I love it I I mean it's it's quite interesting.
00:52:45.679 --> 00:53:14.320
I'm not very I am challenged being the face of something so um with photo collective very it very much isn't about any of us you know we're very hidden and actually for quite a long time people didn't even know who we were really it was the organization it's all about other people um and uh yeah so that's that's kind of the way I kind of do most of my practice in all the different shapes and forms except for the top billing on this podcast.
00:53:14.320 --> 00:53:36.239
Except like my name is in the is in the podcast now and also you know when you've got a partner in crime like Sally Brownville she is just like she's you know pushing for us to get out there and on all the radio shows and on all the things and she wants to be you guys have done so great building an audience so quickly like it's great.
00:53:36.239 --> 00:54:17.840
Yeah we've done really well and that's a lot to do with her because she's just tenacious she's just doesn't um not that she doesn't care but she she just like is she's unashamably herself and she just is putting it out there and she's going for it you know and whereas when I would be you know we'll go to like events together and you know the star of the event will be there and she'll be like standing next to them you know and she'll go hurry on come on come on come on we got to get in and I'm like oh Sally I'm just gonna I just don't I just want like I would like slowly like find a little way in and just say oh I really love your work and she's a she's like queuing up and then she's like hi I've just got to say you know so I think we balance each other really well.
00:54:17.840 --> 00:54:20.079
And but she's just going for it.
00:54:20.079 --> 00:54:31.920
And yeah a lot of a lot of it you know we're very much a partnership and there's a lot that I do in the background as well but a lot of that kind of like really getting our name out there is is up is down to her just going for it.
00:54:31.920 --> 00:54:35.760
So yeah I'm very lucky to have um a great partner in crime there.
00:54:36.000 --> 00:54:37.119
Yeah no she's amazing.
00:54:37.119 --> 00:54:38.639
It's it's I love the format.
00:54:38.639 --> 00:54:43.920
I love the the short tight interviews and I like the seasonal nature of it.
00:54:43.920 --> 00:54:51.840
Like mine has been such a long slushy thing over I don't know 15 or so years just sort of just like the tide going in and I'd like to do it.
00:54:51.840 --> 00:54:53.039
It's fun talking to people.
00:54:53.039 --> 00:54:59.280
Yeah actually structuring I think it does help what you've done in in building the sort of tight structured uh little organization.
00:54:59.599 --> 00:55:21.199
It just it works for us because otherwise um we just we need we both need parameters in our life so um uh sorry um we both need parameters in our life because we both got lots of things going on so we and to get together like it's one thing if you're just doing it on your own you can find the time but when both of us have to find the time it's a bit trickier.
00:55:21.199 --> 00:55:28.800
So we knew that early on that it would be okay let's record it all now and then we can put it out you know over the next few months.
00:55:28.800 --> 00:55:36.159
Yeah it's been I but I'm the same I love the conversations like that is the bit that's just a joy for me.
00:55:36.159 --> 00:55:44.000
I love getting in that room I love speaking with people um you know we've done a few on Zoom which is great when people are in the room it's fantastic.
00:55:44.000 --> 00:55:45.519
That's the bit I really love.
00:55:45.519 --> 00:55:52.239
I actually like when people come up and say oh I've listened to the podcast that's when I get a bit like oh what did I say?
00:55:52.480 --> 00:55:53.440
What did I say?
00:55:53.599 --> 00:56:06.800
I'm embarrassed so that that that's a bit more awkward for me funnily enough but yeah the conversations themselves are just I mean what a what a privilege to speak to some of these amazing people.
00:56:07.199 --> 00:56:13.119
I agree and the fact that they're willing to sit down and have a chat and um it is great.
00:56:13.119 --> 00:56:13.760
It is great.
00:56:13.760 --> 00:56:29.280
So hey we're we're just on our on our hour um and and and our time has flown by and it's probably kind of appropriate to to to to finish up as a thank you for um for for sitting down with me which has feels really lovely.
00:56:29.760 --> 00:56:37.440
Oh it's so nice to yeah our paths have crossed a few times but we we tend to be at events where we kind of get five minutes and then that's it.
00:56:37.440 --> 00:56:40.880
So it's been really nice to just yeah chat.
00:56:41.280 --> 00:56:51.440
Yeah it's been interesting and I found like the the broad like I it's nice to know what what's driving you and and the broadness with which I understood what you've been up to.
00:56:51.440 --> 00:56:56.719
It's like it's it's a whole great fabulous story and it doesn't sound like there's any end to it.
00:56:56.719 --> 00:57:06.079
It looks I I can't wait to see where Photo Collective uh you know continues as iterations and I love the pragmatism around we can't do this right now.
00:57:06.079 --> 00:57:10.480
I think magazines people understand something deeply physical like that.
00:57:10.480 --> 00:57:18.000
There is something special though having it I mean I'm looking at one now sitting on my coffee table and it just sits there and you can pick it up and flip through it.
00:57:18.000 --> 00:57:22.239
Yeah and you can but then again I worry about the things that are not in it.
00:57:22.239 --> 00:57:25.519
You know what what what did you cut out and all those sorts of things.
00:57:25.760 --> 00:57:30.559
So and that's the beautiful process of that curation and editing again.
00:57:30.559 --> 00:57:30.960
Yeah.
00:57:30.960 --> 00:57:41.119
Yeah yeah yeah yeah well thank you so much for your time Harry well thanks so much Paul and thanks for everything that you do in the industry as well and uh make space to have conversations like this as well.
00:57:41.119 --> 00:57:43.119
It's just yeah it's been really really lovely.
00:57:43.440 --> 00:57:47.280
That's a pleasure it's been it's been a been a lovely hour and um wish you all the best.