The Creative Spirit

Allyson: So we recorded a podcast. Welcome to the table. Welcome to the table. Hello. Thank you so much. This is chapter four. We are so excited that you are with us. Now we're going to mix things up a little bit. This is usually the part of the show where I go and say, hey, this is the fun, cool chapter of the Bible we're going to talk about, the theme of the conversation. But today we have something even more exciting. We have a guest, our very first guest. We are so excited. Her name is Jess and instead of me trying to introduce her, Jess, how about you introduce yourself? Yeah, so I'm Jess. I'm a POC Urban Missionary and I operate at the national level across Canada. And what I do is I work with artists and just creating spaces for them to not only encounter the love of Jesus, but also for them to be able to. share their gifts with others that need sharing. That is so amazing. Okay, we are so excited to get into your ministry, just the passion and the love of creativity that God has put on your heart. But before we can get into that, something that Allison and I are incredibly dedicated to is good food. On this episode we didn't end up going out for food beforehand, but we did have a very, very specific question for you Jess. In Calgary, where's your favorite place to eat? And just tell us all about it. Yeah, right now I've been on ⁓ an Italian kick lately so... ⁓ just in Ontario and one of my good friends there, she's Italian and we just like had some of the best Italian food like all week. I feel like I've carb loaded so much and have had nowhere for those carbs to go so I probably gained a couple pounds. And then I was literally just in Edmonton today and checked out this cafe that I'd never heard of before. It was called Va Cafe. Another Italian spot and literally had the best roast beef panini of my entire life. in Calgary specifically, at Skózáfába's on 17th. Oh yes. Also incredible, incredible Italian subs. I literally had that just this last week and it was phenomenal. so that's just been my thing right now. What are you ordering if you go tomorrow for lunch? What are you getting? I'm usually a chicken parm girlie. ⁓ I ordered something else last week. Or not last week, sorry. The last time I was there and I can't remember what it was called. Chicken farm I got the see now I can't remember what was there's The second the second item on their menu right after there's the classic Italian whatever is under that on the menu was also very No, it wasn't that I can't remember the menu How do you say the restaurant again I think that I'm just I'm probably wrong That's closer than I was gonna get. Usually two zeds like it's like that sound like pizza. Yeah, it might be skocefava's but yeah, anyway Anyone can correct me in the comments? That's on 17th, everyone knows it. If anyone knows how to pronounce it that'll be helpful. Okay, fantastic. ⁓ Okay, well, let's pray and then get into our conversations. it. Perfect. ⁓ Holy Spirit, thank you for this space and gathering of your people around your table. We thank you that we get to be part of your beautiful story. We thank you for all the many diverse and unique ways in which you captivate our hearts. Would our lives reflect glimpses of your glory? We ask that you would bless our conversation tonight and bless every single person who listens to it. Please increase our faith through the stories that we share here. We love you. Amen. Okay, so Jess, in your introduction, you mentioned your ministry. Before we get into specifically what you do in that ministry, the first question I wanted to ask you is what's like the heart or the why behind that ministry? Like how did you get to that space where that's where you wanted to invest your time and resources? Yeah, I think for me it had been a... over a decade long journey honestly of like feeling called to ministry, feeling called to artists and creatives but not knowing exactly where I fit and all of that and obviously kind of the natural tendency. For anyone to do when they have a ministry calling is to start working at a church, go to Bible college, become some kind of youth pastor and work your way up, which I did exactly that. I started off as a junior high pastor and then ⁓ because we were also, so this was at Journey Church, which people might be familiar with, but. ⁓ At the time, something that was kind of unheard of was taking two churches and merging them together. you know, for as long as we've known, we've only ever known of like, you know, church splits happening. So it was really interesting for our denomination specifically to be like, Hey, like, let's just take these two churches. One that was like thriving, but just didn't have a space. And then the other that had a space, but was not thriving in terms of like numbers, people, ⁓ and just like not having enough to be able to cover the mortgage of that building. And so, ⁓ we ended up doing a merger, which was like, incredible thing you just never hear of this thing. can't think of a single other church merger I've ever heard of actually. it's really unique and it was really cool and so I had been hired on as a junior high pastor. But then they also were in need of a creative pastor. And so I kind of took that on. And it's like funny looking back now because I'm like, who trusted me with this? I was a 20 something year old, trying to care for the creative for like this 700 person church and like still figuring out what that looked like. And it was interesting to me because... Again, like there just wasn't much of a framework for creative ministry or like what creative pastoring could look like. I, know, we have like worship pastor things, have youth pastor things and we have lead pastor things like conferences, workshops, these things. And there was just never anything for me, which was a little frustrating. So I'm like, I am new to this and I have no resources. have no like mentors or like coaches that I could look up to that have been in this space. Why is that? And so that kind of started the journey of like, yeah, what up with church and what up with creatives and the creative space. Cause it's just something that's been so interesting to kind of see the journey of. ⁓ Yeah, again, the longer I've worked in the industry, like the more and more I was kind of like, this is frustrating because like I started to find friends in the industry, started actually working ⁓ on like sets with people that were like unchurched, but amazing artists, like amazing artistry. And even just like hearing the stories of people who had grown up in church and left church or ⁓ just like wouldn't ever step foot in church because of, you know, what they've, assumptions that they've made about it. And part of me was just deeply grieved. I'm like, there's just amazing artists. And I'm even like right now looking at this, this like stained glass, I think it's a print, but it kind of emulates a stained glass thing. And I think about all the artists that were commissioned by the church and had a high calling, not only just to like make beautiful things, but actually was there, there aren't being used to point people to the creator. And I think somewhere along the like in our church history, in yeah, our collective history, we've kind of forgotten about the soul of an artist and the importance of an artist. Like, we've weirdly created this narrative, like, yeah, we care about your gifts and we love what you can offer to the church, but that's all that we want from you. And to me, that became a massive pastoral concern where I'm like, no, like, a bunch of these artists are leaving the church because... We're trying to use them like vending machines, like creative vending machines where we want their art, but we don't want them. that's kind of the reason why this ministry came about. Renaissance was just to create spaces, to care for artists the way that they needed to be cared for. And part of it is like, artists are some of the most misunderstood. ⁓ just again of like just the way that their brain is wired ⁓ the that they feel so deeply about their craft about like the work that they're doing ⁓ and the of ⁓ understanding on like the other side of it where it's like we don't actually understand why artists do the things that they do or like why they are the way that they are ⁓ which is ⁓ again crazy ⁓ like is an artist and God is a creator ⁓ and creative as well ⁓ And so there's an aspect of his heart that we are missing out on when we say, don't understand artists or we don't care for artists. No, absolutely. I love everything that you just said. I've had the opportunity to be in Europe a couple of times. And the one thing that always strikes me, I always try and check out like a cathedral or two, like just the church architecture. And that's always something that I feel like we're missing, especially in North America. Like the passion behind the art, the cathedral architecture. It was an act of worship. I always want to say Sangria Familia, but that's not what it's called. is it called? Sangria? It's not Sangria. ⁓ And I think it's something that we have, especially in the West, lost. the, again, just hearing you recognize that ⁓ and call it out, I think is so, ⁓ so important. I also really liked what you said about... ⁓ Artists just not getting the recognition that they deserve. I have family who is in the creative space And I'm I'm the exact opposite. I'm a business guy I love spreadsheets and powerpoints which I think can get pretty creative, but my family tends to disagree with me on that one but no I seeing how they operate and Just how that they don't get the recognition that they often deserve Yeah, that really speaks to me on a personal level. So one of the things that you had mentioned at the end was again, just that creative heart of God. I'd love to hear more about that and your perspective on it. Yeah, God is, again, like we read in scripture that God is not just a creative, but he's also the creator. ⁓ And I think we often jump to the fact that like, yeah, he is the God of the universe and he is the God that will redeem and restore and renew all things, all creation and all created things. And when we look at scripture from the very beginning, ⁓ like we start to see his genius and his brilliance, like even just starting in Genesis one when he's creating the heavens and the earth and everything within it, there's a symmetry within his work of creation. ⁓ When we read the scripture, there's also like a poetic symmetry to it as well. And then we fast forward a little bit to when we see that when he created humans for the first time, we see that humans are the highest form of creation, that nothing that God has ever made or will make will ever exceed the work of humanity. ⁓ We are his masterpiece. And then we'll fast forward a little bit more. We find ourselves with what we know as the fall. Adam and Eve were deceived and all of humanity and creation fell under this curse. Reading this you kind of realize there is an increased depth to it once you realize exactly why God cares so fiercely about creation It's because it's something that he made it's something like it is his baby. This is his thing and so God being a creative God is not an accident because there was an immense amount of creativity ⁓ that would then be needed to do the work of redemption and restoration not only in us, but in all of creation. And so I kind of take the heart of God being, or at least like the creative heart of God being like an artist who just cares so deeply about his work. And this is kind of... I like to think like kind of that artist trope of like why artists are so weirdly obsessed with the things that they make is just because it's something that you made with your hands. It's something that is just so unique to you and so special to you. And it's a labor of love. Like it just comes from the depths of your soul, the depths of your spirit from within you becoming an actual like thing. And for God, it was like, yeah, not just the work of creation, but like humankind, people that he so desperately just wants to be with. And so... It's very much an artist's heart, but it's also very much a father's heart. And that's one of the beautiful things I think that God as a creative or having a creative heart looks like to me. Can you unpack that a little bit of what it looks like for you as like a daughter of God to experience the heart of the father and the heart of God as the creative? identity as a really came to life for me ⁓ I realized that God was an artist. I grew up ⁓ a very musical family. My dad ⁓ a drummer, an electric player, my mom is a worship leader. ⁓ music was just always happening in our house. My dad would have bandmates over. ⁓ have rehearsals every single night, and then they would do a gig at the end of the week, ⁓ to kind of ⁓ stress for them. music has just always been so like deeply ingrained in our family ⁓ it was just funny because again, it's the same thing where it's like when you are a musician or whatever. I always just felt a little bit like odd. ⁓ I'd ⁓ with my peers and they're all like ⁓ amazing, like intelligent, brilliant people. And I'm like, I'm like kind of the weird musical person because I cry when I had, when I had math homework. my brain just... ⁓ that way. And so this affected me like even in my teens growing up because I was like I don't even know what I meant to do because I just feel so deeply connected to my gifting as a musician, as a creative, but I don't see... a future or like a career in this. All of my friends are getting into school for engineering, for med school or what earth like science, like very noble, very cool things. And I was like, I feel lost. don't, I don't, cause I also grew up. I wasn't a classically trained musician. I'd learned everything by ear. And so even trying to get into a music program, like he still needed some level of training to be able to get into it. And so that kind of just shot all of my hopes and desires to even like do anything musical related as a career. ⁓ And so obviously the Lord has amazing ways of kind of changing the trajectory of your life. And so he encountered me on a mission trip when I was 19 years old and feeling at my lowest, just not having any purpose or like not knowing what to do with my life. had flunked out of school. Guys, my GPA was 0.7. okay. That's a good thing. Audible gas in the room. Like it was bad. And so again, just kind shot any chance for me to ever get into school for anything. ⁓ met me on a mission trip and just radically called me to ministry, which was crazy because I just, I didn't want anything to do with the church. was like, me. The only reason I'm on this mission trip is because like I kind of just wanted a vacation and I wanted to hang out with my friends. were in the Dominican Republic. Perfect. So I'm like, yeah, I'm going to go. then just like every other encounter that people have, like God. just grabbed me by the jugular and was like, nope, you're doing ministry. And I was like, okay, sick. Okay, then what? then again fast forward, yeah, we got into Bible College, which was again like an increase like a crazy Testimony in and of itself because I was just ahead of 0.7 GPA. ⁓ cool? It was gonna take me ⁓ ended up getting to Embers University, which was like again unheard of because ⁓ a academic institution ⁓ ⁓ took time to listen to my story ⁓ it was just like hey like we saw your letter of appeal ⁓ the Dean was moved and so you can you can come study and yeah and so that was again one of those like God things but ⁓ I never really like understood my identity as a daughter of God until a couple years ago when I had stepped down from ministry. I was kind of getting to a point where I was feeling burnt out. Again, same thing where it's like, I don't actually know if like this is where I'm meant to be like operating as a minister, as a pastor. Like I just, this can't be all that God has for me. And not to say that like my job that I was working was terrible or anything, but it was just one of those like, tensions of being a creative, being an artist, being a pastor. And again, just like I'm not quite fitting in this nine to five kind of life where churches typically are. The mold. I'm in a box and I don't want to be inside. Exactly. And it wasn't until I had stepped down and like my... I had no title, had no job, had no prospective jobs in mind. I just knew that I had to step down and just rest in God and kind of just reclaim a little bit of what was robbed from me in that season of burnout. That's to say that like, mean, that was a, that's a very small sliver of what was happening in that, in that same season. I was also juggling, ⁓ kind of just family health issues and just like things here and there. And so it was just for me, it like just constant crisis mode. And so it wasn't until like everything was stripped away that I was like, God, need you. And also who am I? Right. Because I've operated 10 years of like being a creative pastor, of being a creative. at a church of like being needed which was amazing but also needed a little too much. And so when all of that is kind of stripped back, stripped and removed, like who am I? I don't know. So I had to wrestle with the Lord and being like, okay, if I'm not working at a church and if I'm not doing this art thing and if I'm not doing this, like what am I? Like who am I? Who am I to you? And it was in that moment where the Lord just like met me radically and was like, well, you are my daughter. That's who I made you to be. In this season, like you have just ran with it for like 10 years straight when all of my life. really wanted from you was for you to just minister to my heart. You have spent so much of your life giving to the church, creating for the church, writing for the church, ⁓ that you've actually forgotten to do that for me first. And I was wrecked. was like, ⁓ God, okay. Just undoing this 10 years of like all of this. I was looking for like a job application, not all of this other stuff. Yeah, well it was super funny because I remember stepping down and I just clearly heard from the Lord, you're not applying to anything. Wow. Don't. Okay, so like old request old request but also like an insane amount of faith to believe that he would provide for me because I'm like I'm not making any money Yeah, what how am I gonna pay for my bills? How am I like? Where am I getting my next meal from like this is crazy ⁓ And he did. All he, all he wanted me to do was just spend time with him and be with him. And I think we get caught up in, especially working in a church, our job being like our ministry to the Lord, which in some aspects, yes. but then we start to live in this like cycle of, you know, just do, do all these things. then, like I already read my Bible because we read it for staff meeting. think I'm good. And then not actually enriching. your personal relationship with him. And so like in that season that I was off of work and like this wasn't even before like going into the missionary thing like this was just me and unemployed on a Tuesday and being like God I need you. But that's where he met me and that's where he kind of like reminded And it wasn't because like I didn't make you to be a creative pastor. I didn't make you to be This thing like I just made you to be you and I just need you to be with me. Yeah So what does ministering to his heart look like for you now fast forward? a lot of things actually I think ⁓ it's I try to align it with like how I spend my Sabbath as well ⁓ But some days it'll look like... It will look like writing and just like reading scripture and spending singing to him. Like one of my heroes in the Bible, David, like that's what he did in the fields. Even though he was tending the sheep, he was also ministering with the heart of the father through song. ⁓ Other days, it looks like taking photo walks and just like observing nature, observing life, observing life all around us and just seeing the ways that God kind of shows up. comments. Like, hey, if I'm in the mountains, like, God, you made those. And then just allowing him to speak to me through that. It also just looks like having coffee with some of my closest friends and... hearing the ways that the Lord had been working through them throughout the week. In the good and the bad. Right. The ways that they've navigated difficult situations and how the Lord has held them through that and even celebrating some of the beautiful moments that happen and all the joys of life that are to be celebrated. Yeah, that's kind of... to me what it looks like to also minister to the heart of the Father doesn't look like one specific thing. Yeah. Yeah. Something that you've mentioned a couple times is again, just God's like unique relationship with artists and acknowledging that sometimes the church doesn't assist in that. What are ways you've seen that done well? That can either be through what you're attempting through your missionary work, things you've seen in the past. Are there any good examples of when you went, ⁓ the church really captured the heart of God and being able to communicate with artists in a way that's helpful? Yeah. mean, like, if you look at back, even just early church history, like the church did that very well. They commissioned artists frequently to, portray scripture visually and that was the way to do it because like people weren't literate and so like how else were you know people able to receive the gospel of Jesus other than through maybe song through pictures through music, through architecture, buildings. Like even like we were just talking about cathedrals and the silicas, like the reason why they were constructed as high as they were, as possible, as high as possible was like ⁓ architects and engineers wanted you to marvel at the wonder, like the wonder of God by looking up. just look up and that's what these buildings would do for people and it would just you could stare at them for hours I mean we even go inside a cathedral you're like you see the paintings on the roof and you're looking up and so it just like that physical kind of of like actually looking up cause people to be like ⁓ yeah okay I think there's something beyond what see and what we know. The church was... excelled at that. ⁓ think it got lost along the way when you start to realize that obviously spending four generations building a building isn't the most effective or productive way to make, to build buildings. So we kind of see this thing of productivity over, or productivity efficiency over beauty. ⁓ And then that's kind of where we see like, we've compromised a little bit of that aspect because it's like well we need something done yesterday. Now that's not to say that like we aren't doing any better now. There have been really cool movements which have also like surprisingly been called Renaissance like all over the world, is really cool. There's one out of the UK Renaissance movement and they're hard again is to like essentially the same as mine but to kind of just see a Renaissance of like artists in the church. Just bringing art back into our services into like the way of life ⁓ at church ⁓ to bring artistry back into what we do, to bring beauty back into what we do. I think Church of the City in New York also has this this Renaissance movement as well, which again is the same thing where it's like they are looking for Christian artists to like usher in the next Renaissance of artistry, which is again needed. I think the basis of what we're all doing is like we just need to see beauty in a broken world and we need the artists to do that and so. I think those are kind of two modern examples of how I've seen that done really well. And that, like you were saying, that's so needed, especially there's countless examples of, well, more mainstream art is... just becoming more secular, ⁓ less and less focused on exalting the heart of the father. So who's left to do that if we don't empower Christian artists to just be able to use their creativity as a gift, as an act of worship. So again, it's just fantastic that both yourself and just, it seems like God is very focused right now on reminding his children that he's creative and he wants the giftings of his children's to. be amplified, especially in the creative space, which is amazing. One thing just as you were talking, because you mentioned that you have a passion for music. It's something that's really important to you. I would love to get your opinion on what are just fun ways we could mix up worship music. heard many different opinions. I'd just love to get yours on both the pros, the cons of modern worship music, ⁓ but what could we do to get the creatives more involved in that space? ⁓ Yeah, I this question. ⁓ Worship, especially like our beloved CCM, contemporary Christian music, I think is awesome, but it's also very formulaic. And it kind of gets to a point where like almost everything starts to sound the exact same. And you're like, wait, this is a different song, but we've been singing it for 20 minutes. What's going on? Which is like not a bad thing, but also it's like, it does raise a question of like, okay, are we actually being creative with what we're making? what we're putting out into the world. ⁓ I've been, and this is not a knock to any Christian artists or worship collectives right now, but I have been way more inspired by mainstream artists and people in different genres lately than I have been by CCM. And again, it's not to say that the music they're making is bad, but because it's become so formulaic, I'm just getting a little bored of it. I've been really inspired inspired by this DJ called Fredigan. You've never heard of him. But he is this UK based DJ. But he is a kind of artist that like he is an artist. He thinks through like visuals, he thinks through like musical auditory experience. He thinks through like, you know, if you were to be someone that were at this concert, like what would the experience be for you? And I think those kind of people are aware of like the experience that is being created are needed. ⁓ 100%. So like feel free to take a look at one of his sets later on but like he had a recent set I think like a month or two ago and it was just in this massive building and like visually stunning like he had these giant like fabric I don't even know what to call them like fabric sheets just like hanging from the roof yeah like they looked like with lighting it kind of looked like you were in the clouds. And then he just like again lighting auditory like was it a whole experience and that's something that is like unforgettable ⁓ yeah, and then you go back to our Christian music. I'm like, well all of its kind of forgettable. Yeah, you your course you've got your Three verse. Yeah, you got your bridge, but then you like you look you think of a service to I'm like I can't remember a service that like like a church service that Stuck with me and it's not just because it was like maybe the past or whatever, but like a worship set that's actually stuck with me. I can't remember the last time like I've had that. And so I'm like, what's going on? Like, and so part of it is like, again, we're just not tapping into the importance of creativity and beauty when it comes to these things. We're allowing ourselves to go through the motions. Absolutely. And we suffer for it. ⁓ I think also this is kind of like adjacent but also not really but like you look at our Christian music I was having a conversation with the pastor the other day actually but like we there hasn't been like a lament type song that has charted in the top 100 in like a long time or even if ever I have to double check. Might be like the old hymns maybe. but like we're also not good at tapping into those like harder feelings that are like, we don't like hearing sad songs is what I'm trying to say. Yeah. And so like, cause you know, you come to church and you don't want to be hearing like a woe is me type of song. Sure. But we've kind of strayed away from lament. Which is funny because like two thirds of the Psalms are laments. And there's a whole book of lamentations. That's something that always makes me laugh when people talk about the Psalms and they're like, just love the Psalms. It's just so happy and just so joyful. I'm like, we are listening to different Psalms. The Psalms I'm listening to are very depressed. They get to God eventually, but they're very sad at the beginning. 100%. Whenever I'm reading Psalms, I'm like half the time, hear like heavy metal music. Because I'm like, this is David. Why have you forsaken me? Like stuff like that. ⁓ The Christian metal scene is creative. I have been loving it. Again, we can bond over ⁓ yeah 100%. I've also just been listening to like metal music and I'm like this is fun. Why are we not doing this? Get it on a Sunday service. Yeah. But yeah. That's what the angels sound like. could look at them. True. Biblically accurate angels. I'm like, yeah, your soundtrack is like a... I think. I personally think. Biblically accurate angels rock out the rock and roll. Honestly, they're so metal. Like, the wings and eyes and everything. That's amazing. What am I saying here? But yeah, I think there's something to be said about our... inability to really like, not an inability, but I think we've just created this mold, this framework of what church service and church is supposed to be like. And then it becomes difficult for anyone that's like walking into the room that has like just suffered through a tragedy, like loss of parent, loss of sister, lost a brother, lost a friend, and us not having songs for it. Totally. Yeah. And, Yeah, I just always found that interesting. And not to say that again, like there aren't songs like that, but... like mainstream CCM type stuff. how do you think we cultivate the gift of the creative specifically in a way where it's like cultivated as worship? And I'm thinking in particular of like the up and coming generation, so they don't go through our similar experiences. How do we get to them and show them the heart of the father, the voice of the Holy Spirit and cultivate it to be worship because the secular world is coming in with a lot of things and we can all agree there's a lot of ways where the church is definitely not leading the way on. How do we make sure the younger generation doesn't get left behind? Yeah, I think... This is also where discipleship just becomes really important. think again we live in such an individualistic society and I want to throw up every time I hear that word because it's actually horrible. Like life was never meant to be lived alone. Like we look in scripture, no one ever did life alone. Like not even Jesus, like he surrounded himself with his 12 best friends. like ⁓ have, I especially millennials too, like we've just grown up with this like I gotta do this on my own kind of like lone wolf mentality and part of that's also like Gen Z kind of inherited that as well which is a little bit concerning but I'm like ⁓ yeah that's where the work of discipleship and like surrounding yourself with ⁓ people who know Jesus but know you ⁓ know ⁓ the kind of giftings that you have, kind of like passions that you have. You need to surround yourself with like-minded people. we look back at even like the early church, ⁓ not the early church, but early like art history. ⁓ Every artist had some kind of protege with them and they often like lived together ⁓ and would like ⁓ literally do life ⁓ together a studio and like ⁓ be side by side. And sometimes like not just like a protege, like multiple, I think it was like... on Rimmatis and the Club Monet and all of them and they all had this like studio space where like four of them would just create together. And some of their best work was made together, which was really cool. Can I bring in the Bible? Because like God himself does this way before anybody else figures out that it's a good idea. This is back in Exodus. Exodus 31, the Lord speaks to Moses, look I have appointed by name a certain person who is the son of someone else, the son of someone else, blah blah blah, tribe of Judah. I have filled him with God's spirit, with wisdom, understanding, and the ability in every craft to design artistic works in gold, silver, and bronze, to cut gemstones for mounting, and to carve wood for work in every craft. I have also selected another person, of the tribe of Dan, ⁓ to be him. I have put wisdom his heart of every skilled artisan in order to make all that I have commanded you. The tent of meeting, the Ark of the Testimony, the Mercy Seat that is on top of it, and other furnishings the tent. ⁓ God himself anoints specific through his Spirit to be creatives, ⁓ to build the Tabernacle. in the apprenticeship part, which is so cool to me when you bring it up. that is a foundational scripture for any Christian artist, we see, again, this is like the first instance of the Holy Spirit actually coming down on people, Bezalel and the Holy App, to create... You got the names. Of course. To not only like create this incredible community of artisans, and like not just artisans, but like the best of the best in every single craft. You have metal workers, you have carpenters, you have stonemasons, you have people that probably do plumbing. Like I don't even know what they would have been called back then. The water works people. You had textile workers like you had all of these people working together to create this insane like if you look at the dimensions and all like the mesh I'm like this is insane and and so You have this community of like artisans coming together to create Not just like this thing, but it's actually the dwelling place of God. The dwelling place of the Lord. That is no small feat. That is like one of the highest. Yeah, that's like we're having kisses earth. Exactly. Like this is one of the highest like responsibilities that God is giving to his people and not just his people, but like to creatives. And so you kind of look at these feats and you realize, no, like none of them ever did anything alone. And so like that aspect has been lost in our society and we need to kind of reclaim that and redeem that a little bit where it's like no we actually have to like do this hand in hand together and I know sometimes you wanna like go and do your own thing which is like great but then also don't forget that you also need to surround yourself with people otherwise you just become a stray sheep So with that, are there any good examples of how that's going well? Or any modern day examples of, in your personal experience, how are people getting connected? Again, you've mentioned a couple times, creatives just speak in their own language. So what does that look like practically? What are spaces that reflect this? there's something really cool happening in Calgary where you're seeing all these like little artists collectives kind of popping up ⁓ also broader ⁓ in Canada, you're seeing all like Songwriter collectives happening. You're seeing all these like filmmaker collective happening photographer collectives like it's really cool seeing that ⁓ and I ⁓ again it comes out of place of man I love my craft, but I don't love doing this by myself ⁓ and so ⁓ Yeah, think ⁓ part of it is like artistry is such a, and being an artist is such a vulnerable thing too. Cause it's like, this is my baby. I don't want anyone to judge me for what I've made. Like I don't want anyone to say anything bad. ⁓ And I think because of that, that's again, why kind of artists have secluded themselves even just like from society. Cause it's just like, that's where that misunderstood kind of paradigm comes from. But also like, no one's going to get this. So why would I share it with anyone? Now I'm seeing like the flip side of it where a lot more people are being a little bit more open and like, yeah, this is my work. Like you might not like it, but I do. And so here it is. And so I think that's been a really cool thing to see as of late. And I actually wanted to expand on that. Something you'd mentioned earlier on was being able to connect with creatives who aren't of faith, but being able to create really ⁓ meaningful relationships with them and then even being able to minister. I'd love to hear your thoughts on just the, it sounds like amazing potential of meeting these creatives where they're at, being able to, like you were just saying, meet them at their most vulnerable, where they're being their most authentic selves in their own creativity. And how can you just like share God's love in that space? Yeah. Yeah, I've had like several deeply profound conversations with artists that are unchurched. ⁓ One of my friends, she's like a singer-songwriter grew up in kind of Christian family but just wasn't for I guess some of the narratives that Christianity has when it comes to certain things so she just distanced herself from the church and would just never step foot in the church And so it's interesting because, again, just kind of being an artist, She's had this sensitivity to the spirit. and has always been deeply moved by like any like some some of the songs that we've written for church. She's like she's been deeply moved by some of the things I've written my other friends ⁓ but it just wouldn't be enough for her to like actually come to church and ⁓ I remember like having a conversation she's just like man like I love I love ⁓ the idea of Jesus and I love the idea of faith. I just don't love the church. And so to me that kind of just was like, okay, I think there's, like some remedying work we need to do with like, ⁓ with artists because ⁓ anyone that is an artist a part of artist heart ⁓ and has that understanding of what God ⁓ is for people and for this world and for creation. ⁓ I think there's just a lot of other things that people end up being influenced by ⁓ that up kind of taking up their... ⁓ I guess like their time and their energy when it comes to like spiritual things. So then you have a lot of these artists that are into like the new agey things and like witchcraft and like all of these, because they've searched elsewhere and have found truth, like and I'm saying this with air quotes, in these other things. us Christians have kind of missed the opportunity to actually present the gospel as the source of truth to them. But like God is a loving father and God is an artist just like you. And we've missed out on opportunity to be able to reach ⁓ artists which again are basically like they are an unreached people group. And like yeah it's just they need Jesus. We all do. ⁓ But yeah, I, yeah, those are kind of just things that I think about when it comes to that. For yourself as a creative and in your experience, trying to connect more with ⁓ these creatives, a way that creatives just feel well? 100%. Honestly, yeah, just like... recognizing that they are artists and creatives and like if they have work that they've shown you like encourage them in that. Hey this is tell me more about this tell me more about like being intentional goes such a long way with with creatives because that's really like what they desire is like I just want people to ask me about my art because people rarely do. ⁓ that's helpful for me because then I can be like, I don't understand any of this, but I can then ask, explain this to me. Totally. And then yeah, yeah, just even like, I'd love to see where your head was at when you made this. Like, I just want to know more about this piece and why it means a lot to you. Like, just having these kinds of conversations just opened up a world of... Possibility with people. And also holding space for there's not always language for what they see or understand. ⁓ And how much energy and exhaustion it can take just to explain things. ⁓ Holding space for that too. one closing question. Sure. Just because it's something that always fascinates me and I love to get other people's perspective and especially yours. What do think heaven's going to look like? Because heaven... Conceptually is where all things are made, right? So we take earth we make all things right from a creative perspective Tell us tell some fun things that you'd like to see in happen. sit in the camp of I think ⁓ earth will be renewed and restored ⁓ And so not like we're gonna be packing bags and going anywhere. I think ⁓ ⁓ random right here, ⁓ but everything that we've ever known about earth is like It's gonna be what God had originally intended for it to be I frequently think about the The verse in in Genesis were like It describes ⁓ Adam and Eve just freely roaming in the garden and so was God. But he was also like himself was freely roaming in the garden. And I like, I grieve that we lost that in the fall, but I yearn for that when, when, you know, Jesus comes back and renews and restores all of creation. So I look forward to that. So to me, that's what I think heaven is gonna be like. Where it's like all things made new, all things restored. We get to go back to the garden, how it was intended, and just freely roam with our father. I really like that idea. Amazing. I don't think we quite understand what freedom is. So even to conceptualize what it means to like freely roam with God. You're like, oh, I don't know if I even know how to think about that. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. And I think about that. like, I don't even know what that would look like. Yeah. But I'd love to. I dream about it. Yeah, exactly. Oh, that's amazing. Yeah. Well, Jess, thank you so much for having this conversation with us. Yeah. And just sharing about the heart of creatives giving us some insight into just... a group that is so in need of God's love and just sharing your wisdom again, having heard a little bit about your ministry, just it's so encouraging to see what God's doing both through you and also just this movement of bringing creatives closer to the heart of the Father, which is so needed in our day and age. So again, thank you for being here. I'm going to pray us out and then we'll wrap this up. Heavenly Father, thank you so much that you are creative. Thank you with the fact that we are your project and how passionately you care about this little project that you call Earth and that you call humanity. Thank you that we, in our own way, are your masterpiece. And even when we don't feel like it, you view us as your masterpiece. Thank you that... as we continue that you do not give up on us, that you have a heart for the creatives and that you are passionately pursuing them and are raising up people to chase after them like Jess. ⁓ We honor Jess and God, just thank you for everything you're doing. Thank you for good food. Thank you for beautiful buildings. And we pray that we can get a few more in North America, because I think we really need some. So Heavenly Father, again, thank you for this beautiful day. Thank you for Jess. Amen. Well friends, welcome to the table. Thanks for being here. Jess, where can we connect with you? Where can people learn what you're all about? Yeah, you can find me on Instagram at JessicaJSanche. You can also find a little bit of what I do with my ministry at rennaissancecanada.co. I also do have a podcast out called Renaissance Creative Podcast, ⁓ where I chat with pastors about ⁓ creative theology, artistry, beauty, what it looks like for ⁓ us to bridge the gap between the arts and the church. Well, thank you being We've been honored by this conversation. Yeah, thanks for having me. God bless. ⁓