30 | When Coping Isn't Enough Anymore | Burnout Recovery with Kathrine Parnell

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What if the reason you're so tired isn't because you're doing too much, but because you spent too long being who everyone else needs you to be.
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You can be responsible, dependable, successful, and still quietly lose touch with yourself.
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Today's guest gives us a surprisingly simple way to begin figuring out what actually matters to us.
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And all you need is a pen, a piece of paper, and about 60 seconds.
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So pull up a chair.
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This one might help you hear a voice you haven't listened to in a long time.
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Your own.
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Pull up a chair.
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There's no rush here.
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This season, we're sitting with the hard days.
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The ones that don't resolve quickly.
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The ones that change us in ways we we didn't ask for.
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Here at the counter, nothing needs to be fixed.
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You don't have to have the right words.
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You don't have to have it all figured out.
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You can just come as you are and stay a while.
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This is hard days at the counter.
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Sometimes the things that helped us survive eventually stop helping us live.
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We keep functioning, keep showing up, keep checking the boxes.
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From the outside, everything may even look fine, but underneath there's a quiet ache, a sense that somewhere along the way we've become disconnected from ourselves.
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Today's conversation is for the people who are still coping, but they know deep down they're longing for something more than just survival.
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Today at the counter, I'm joined by Katherine Parnell.
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She is a licensed therapist, author, and founder of Stone and Sky Retreats.
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For more than 20 years, she has worked in the field of mental health, helping people navigate burnout, identity shifts, life transitions, and the quiet exhaustion that often hides behind competence and success.
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She is the author of Keeping It Real, Discovering Your Authentic Self.
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And through her retreats and writing, she helps people slow down, reconnect with themselves, and discover who they are beneath the expectations, roles, and responsibilities that they carry.
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Katherine, thank you for joining us at the counter today.
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Thank you, Laura.
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It really is just such a pleasure to be here with you today.
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And I'm excited about our conversation.
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Today's topic is when coping isn't enough anymore.
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How do people know when they have moved beyond a difficult season and into a place where coping alone is no longer enough?
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Wow, that is I'm glad you bring that up because the coping, we all have instinctively these coping strategies.
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And then sometimes we have to reach beyond those coping strategies and look for something else.
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But when coping strategies are feeling mechanical, when they are not necessarily something that is yours, maybe it was something you watched somebody else do or something you've been taught to do, then quite often it doesn't really integrate into the essence of who you are.
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And that can be really difficult to maintain, to sustain those strategies that just should start to just integrate into meaningful life.
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And so when a person starts to feel exhaustion, they are their engagement or their desire to engage in the things that they really used to enjoy, uh, when that is reduced, when relationships start to suffer, those are indicators that the mechanisms that you're using are not the most effective for you.
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And it really does go back to, I think we first have to ask the question, why aren't they effective?
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And quite often it's because they really aren't your coping strategies.
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They're not designed for you, they were designed for someone else.
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Yeah, I get that.
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People, because someone will say, Oh, well, you feel this, I did too.
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You should try this.
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Right.
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But that doesn't work.
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Exactly.
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Exactly.
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Yeah, it's amazing how many, you know.
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I mean, I think everybody has people like to help each other.
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And so they really feel that connection when they've gone through something that has maybe produced similar feelings and they do want to extend some ideas, some suggestions, but we really have to measure those against who we are, who our identity is.
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And that that gets a little complicated sometimes, Laura, because sometimes we don't know who we are.
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Sometimes we get a little lost in the distress of life in our relationships.
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And so we have to do some work to figure that out first.
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Exactly.
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Especially if they've been through trauma or abuse and they're used to people pleasing and they don't even know how to take care of themselves, they don't know how to advocate for themselves or even have personal boundaries anymore.
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You're absolutely right.
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I know you work with people who appear successful, capable, and are high functioning.
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Why do so many people who seem fine on the outside feel exhausted or disconnected on the inside?
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There's a term that came to light a few years ago and it's become quite popular in the world of autism and ADHD, and the term is masking.
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And I don't know that everyone recognizes that we all mask, every single one of us.
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We show, I show up to work, we have a filter at work, right?
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There are things that I might think on the inside of my head, and I think I can't say that.
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I've gotta, I've gotta be this persona, I've gotta be this character.
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And we all do that to some degree at work.
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Hopefully, we're able to be a little more unfiltered in our home environments, but not always.
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And so when we have been masking, when we are fulfilling our daily activities out of expectation, expectations of other people, societal expectations, even expectations that we have decided are important to us, if they're not aligned with our values, if it's not aligned with who we are, the essence of who we are now in this moment, then it's exhausting.
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It burns us out.
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And we end up moving into resentment, we end up moving into just a greater sense of distress that's just a chronic state.
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And when you're in that chronic state, it wears the body down.
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There's so much evidence about autoimmune disorders and physical symptoms that occur as a result of prolonged periods of stress.
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And that really comes back to people living a life that they don't feel aligned with and they're continuing to struggle with.
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So I chuckled when you said that we should have filtered.
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I've gone through a couple life challenges that I think my filter literally just burned up and was gone.
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And so my mom and I have this term, we call it our outside voice.
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Uh-huh.
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That means it's outside your head.
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Are you really wanting to say that?
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Right.
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Right.
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It's so true.
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It's so true.
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We have we all do it.
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I my my children would joke with me.
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Uh, most of them are adults now, but they would joke about how I would be very frustrated with them, would be and have a tone, my mom tone, and then I'd pick up the phone for a business call and have a completely different demeanor.
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And that the business call, that call took more energy because I had to shove down the frustration that I was feeling with my children in that moment.
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And not necessarily it's not about pretending because I was still that business person, but I had to push down some other things that I was feeling to be able to show up and be present for that phone call.
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And so it does take a lot more energy when you are having to navigate more than one world in the same space.
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I'm just gonna say this now, Mom.
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I'm sorry when you listen.
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Because we actually have joked about at one point where she may be fussing at me for letting the dog be crazy or just fussing at me because I did something wrong.
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Phone rings and she's like, Oh, hi.
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And I'm like, hello, you were just like ripping me a new one, really.
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And then she'd get off the phone and go from that back to then you need to finish.
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And it was like, I forgot about it for a long time.
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And then not too long ago, we were talking about it and and laughing about it.
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But you're right, it takes a lot of energy to pause what you were doing and switch roles.
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I think if people are going through health crisis or even burnout, whatever they're going through, situations, they have to be who they are needing to be in that role, right?
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Which is exhausting even more than just trying to do what you normally do.
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It is, it is, it is exhausting, and it leads to dysfunction in relationships.
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We're not showing up as our best.
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And it doesn't mean that you have to have your mom voice on, in my example, with the business call, right?
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It doesn't mean that you have to, that you can't be a different version for what is needed in the moment.
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But there is hopefully a thread that runs through all of it that is consistent.
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And that thread is what I talk about in my book is being self.
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And that is the core.
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That's the essence of who you are, so that you're not at odds with your behavior versus your value.
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Because anytime that anytime you find that you are in a great deal of distress, you can always pull it back to your values and your behaviors are not lining up.
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It's not in alignment.
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And and your values shift, Laura.
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They shift the things that you valued when you were 13 years old, I'm sure are very different than the things that you value now as an adult.
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And so, and it shifts as your roles.
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I mean, I when I became a mother, my values shifted enormously.
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And as I walked through a divorce, my values shifted again.
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And so it's meant to.
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We are meant to be evolutionary, but all too often we've hung on to some things that no longer serve us.
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They no longer have a place in our lives, but they became rooted.
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And so we just think that, oh, I'm supposed to be this person and it can create a lot of distress.
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We actually need to dig those things up and get rid of them.
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Right.
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So you say burnout can look a lot like success.
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Can you unpack that a little?
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Because I think a number of the listeners may recognize themselves in that statement.
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There is an identity that each of us, if we asked today, if we stood two ten people side by side and we said, tell me what success means to you.
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Most people will measure it by financial.
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Most people will measure it by status.
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Those are the top two things that people come up with when they measure success.
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And most of the time, they those are things that people have looked at and possibly not experienced and thought that that's what would bring them satisfaction.
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And so they chase after it and they can in fact experience it and yet not experience the successful feeling that they thought they were going to have with it.
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So again, it goes back to really measuring your values and saying, okay, is that important?
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So, you know, if I say, well, I want to have five million dollars in the bank, well, what do I think that that's going to bring me?
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Is it the ability to go into Costco and buy anything I want that day?
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Well, are material things really important to me?
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And if they're not, then why am I chasing after that five million dollars in the bank?
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And so we can sometimes get stuck on what we think is going to be the measure of success.
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And in the process, that burns us out because we're not pursuing something that is inherently our desire.
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It is somebody else's desire.
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It was a flashy advertisement on television, or it was our neighbor showed up and they had the car.
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So I thought that was the car I had to have.
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It very much can become the essence of success, can really become the precursor and the thing that advances us into burnout.
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I can tell you I have been with a number of folks as a pastor at the end of their life, or people who were in hospice.
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And I have never once had anybody say, I wish I'd spent more time working, making way more money, or all those crazy dreams.
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That the one thing that they all tend to say is, I wish I spent more time with my family.
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Yes.
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And they may say family kids, grandkids, but usually it's family.
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And I wish I had lived my dreams.
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Right.
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Right.
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So yeah.
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We're we're chasing stuff oftentimes that doesn't really mean what we think it means.
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And if we stop and find the root of what it is that we want, like you said, does it mean I can go to Costco?
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Because we all know Costco and Sam's, you can't come out for under 300 bucks.
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Does it mean I can go and do that and not have my car declined?
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Right.
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Okay, that that's a comfort that I need my finances.
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Okay.
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Or, you know, do I want the neighbor's car?
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Well, it's cool.
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Or is it because I know that they always get the safest, most reliable car?
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Right.
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Why am I envy that?
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Absolutely, absolutely.
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So we really have to understand where those things originate within us and examine is that still relevant for me?
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Is that I talk about going through a divorce and being a single parent for a little while before I remarried, there were things that had to shift.
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There were things that became very valuable to me that were not valuable in my first marriage.
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And subsequently, remarrying, there were things that with insight, I thought, oh, now I know I don't want to do that again.
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Now this is going to be at the top of my list.
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It speaks to that evolution, but you really have to, at the heart of it, understand who it is that you are in that moment and where those values originate.
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What do you think happens when someone feels spends years being productive, responsible, dependable, and capable without ever really checking in with themselves?
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A lot of pain, Laura.
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A lot of pain.
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And oftentimes a view of the world as somehow the injustice of it, that somehow somebody did them wrong.
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They should have had more the blaming of their circumstances when, in fact, none of us have absolute control over what comes at us.
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And we all experience grief, we all experience loss, we all experience transitions and death.
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Those are all certainties.
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But what we do with them is where we have the control.
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How we respond to the situations, what we believe about the situation is where we have control.
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As you said before, at the end of a person's life, it's very unusual if they talk about the regrets that they have materialistically.
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It's almost always about relationships.
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And that's where the regrets are held.
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I think that we really do ourselves an injustice by thinking we have to subscribe or just be victims to what is being delivered to us.
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We can take difficult circumstances and convert those circumstances into things that really encourage growth, instigate growth in our lives.
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I have a motto, and all of my employees and my family, they all know.
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They hear it, and I'm sure they go, oh, she's saying it again.
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But it is that things happen for us and not to us.
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That is a genuine core mantra that I walk through life with.
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It doesn't matter if I look at my very influential moment where my father passed away, life-changing moment.
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Do I believe that that happened for me?
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Absolutely.
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Absolutely.
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Because I see the pieces of that that developed me and made me into the person I am today.
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And so we can take these painful moments, we can take the moments of suffering.
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And it doesn't mean that we celebrate the suffering.
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I wouldn't go that far, but I would say that we can recognize that in the suffering, there's opportunity for us to develop into better versions of who we are.
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I like that you said that because I I was asked on an I was interviewed on a podcast this morning, and I said that the question was, I had walked through breast cancer, and how could I find that to be a blessing?
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Well, when I got the diagnosis, heck no, it wasn't a blessing.
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It was like, oh, good grief.
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But as I now look back and shortly after all the treatments and all of that craziness, I knew it was a blessing.
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I asked, I'm like, Lord, why?
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Why did I have to go through this?
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And he's like, You're gonna use this.
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And I was like, Okay.
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So people they don't understand when I say it truly was a blessing.
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Like when people go through divorces or whatever their situation, their health, their financial, whatever they're going through, I think it can teach them things going forward.
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Like you said, you knew what you didn't want in a marriage.
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My first husband died.
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So when I was starting to date again, I had a list of I want my next person to have a good sense of humor.
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If my doggies step out of line, be willing to pop their butts and say, we don't act like that.
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Um, I wanted them to get along with my family and my friends.
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I wanted them to have a good job.
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I didn't say what the job had to be, but I think we live and learn, and and like you said, it changes who we are, what we do, what we expect, and what we want.
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Exactly.
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Exactly.
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Yeah, it all has so much potential if we can understand it, if we can really not lean into victimization.
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Victimization is not what it's about.
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It is about recognizing how much control we have and what are the areas where we can influence, even with something that's going on in our lives.
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How can we share that influence?
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I would imagine that when you tell people that that it was a blessing, they may think at first like this woman is not well.
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She but then beyond that, what amazing influence you have the potential to have because you have that credibility and you have walked through it, uh a very difficult circumstance where your life was threatened and still be able to say that you developed growth out of it.
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That's remarkable.
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I just I wish because I work with a lot of abuse and trauma victims, and they come in with that's their label.
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Like, who are you?
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Not I'm a mom, I'm a daughter, I'm a I'm a victim of abuse.
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And it's like, okay, why are you claiming that?
00:19:00.640 --> 00:19:06.240
Like you said, it may have happened to you, but in that case, yes, you you some bad stuff happened.
00:19:06.240 --> 00:19:07.599
But what can we do with it?
00:19:07.599 --> 00:19:09.039
What can we take from it?
00:19:09.039 --> 00:19:11.519
What can we look for moving ahead?
00:19:11.519 --> 00:19:12.880
What skills do you have?
00:19:12.880 --> 00:19:17.599
You are strong, you're resilient because you went through it and you dealt with it.
00:19:17.599 --> 00:19:19.119
Not everybody does.
00:19:19.119 --> 00:19:25.759
And so I just it that being stuck in that victim label is like, oh please, let's take a little sideways.
00:19:25.759 --> 00:19:27.759
It's a little small step.
00:19:27.759 --> 00:19:30.799
Your book is called Keeping It Real.
00:19:30.799 --> 00:19:34.880
What does authentic good gracious, my tongue's not working?
00:19:34.880 --> 00:19:37.519
What does authenticity actually mean?
00:19:37.519 --> 00:19:39.440
God, I can't even say that word, can I?
00:19:39.440 --> 00:19:40.400
Authenticity.
00:19:40.400 --> 00:19:42.240
What does authenticity mean?
00:19:42.240 --> 00:19:45.519
And why is it often harder than people expect?
00:19:46.799 --> 00:19:58.880
Well, I may sound like a broken record here, but it absolutely goes back to the values and understanding who you are in that and then living out of that.
00:19:58.880 --> 00:20:01.440
That is what authenticity is.
00:20:01.440 --> 00:20:08.000
It doesn't mean that I don't have different aspects of me, different roles in my family.
00:20:08.000 --> 00:20:12.880
Of course, I am much more known than with people that I work with.
00:20:12.880 --> 00:20:18.480
And that doesn't mean that I am disingenuous or not authentic in both of those spaces.
00:20:18.480 --> 00:20:30.319
When I wrote the book, it really was very healing for me to walk through the process and tell the stories about the experiences that I've had, they're not all pretty stories.
00:20:30.319 --> 00:20:35.200
They're not, you know, some of them are glorious reminders of great things happening.
00:20:35.200 --> 00:20:44.400
And some of them for a long time carried a weight of shame with them over choices I had made or experiences that I had endured.
00:20:44.400 --> 00:20:54.720
And so, but once I began to realize the process of unpacking that and saying, okay, I experienced it or I made this choice that wasn't so fabulous.
00:20:54.720 --> 00:20:55.599
And then what?
00:20:55.599 --> 00:20:57.599
What does the next page tell us?
00:20:57.599 --> 00:21:09.759
And because if I didn't learn something from it, I was very much going to repeat the same mistakes over and over again and then be in that boat where I'm blaming everybody else around me because I'm not getting what I really desire.
00:21:09.759 --> 00:21:25.359
I'm in the process of recording it, and it's been delightful again to go back and revisit these stories and look at it and think, my goodness, there's been so many opportunities for learning that somebody else might say so many hard things I've gone through.
00:21:25.359 --> 00:21:34.000
But I look at what I was what I was able to perceive or what I was able to generate as a result of some really difficult things.
00:21:34.240 --> 00:21:39.440
One of the themes in your book is the role family expectations play in shaping identity.
00:21:39.440 --> 00:21:47.200
How do we recognize when we're living from the expectations that we may have inherited instead of values we intentionally choose?
00:21:47.440 --> 00:21:48.720
It doesn't matter who you are.
00:21:48.720 --> 00:21:51.839
None of us were set on a rock and just raised ourselves.
00:21:51.839 --> 00:21:58.960
We had people that helped bring us up, that were caregivers, whether it's parents, grandparents, foster, whatever it is.
00:21:58.960 --> 00:22:02.160
And so we We absorb those influences.
00:22:02.160 --> 00:22:12.079
We absorb their beliefs about the world, about money, about relationships, about faith, all of those aspects are initially absorbed.
00:22:12.079 --> 00:22:14.880
So we're never going to discard.
00:22:14.880 --> 00:22:20.640
We're never going to be able to completely separate and say, well, this is their stuff and this is completely mine.
00:22:20.640 --> 00:22:36.319
But as we move into adulthood, and this actually can begin in adolescence, recognizing what is ours, and again, going back to those values, those values are intuitively placed in us and they rise to the top.
00:22:36.319 --> 00:22:42.640
And then if we can extract those and say, okay, that's what I'm going to use to govern is those values.
00:22:42.640 --> 00:23:02.960
If honesty is something that is incredibly important for me, and I was raised with a parent who just couldn't tell the truth if their life depended upon it, then I'm probably going to have some inner conflict there because I'm going to have some behaviors that were modeled for me that I might instinctively try to demonstrate.
00:23:02.960 --> 00:23:05.599
But I've got this value of being honest.
00:23:05.599 --> 00:23:11.279
So we really have to do the work to step back and learn how, one, what is our value?
00:23:11.279 --> 00:23:20.480
And then two, how do I activate that value in my life so that it is producing the results that I am wanting?
00:23:20.480 --> 00:23:21.039
Definitely.
00:23:21.279 --> 00:23:28.400
Many people become known as a strong one, a helper, a peacemaker, a caregiver, maybe an achiever.
00:23:28.400 --> 00:23:32.799
How do we know when a role that once served us is no longer serving us?
00:23:33.039 --> 00:23:41.680
Laura, when you are any time in life when you are experiencing distress, that is the time to examine these questions like you're having today.
00:23:41.680 --> 00:23:42.799
How do we know?
00:23:42.799 --> 00:23:46.640
How do we know that what I'm living right now is not authentic?
00:23:46.640 --> 00:23:49.200
How do I know that I am burning out?
00:23:49.200 --> 00:23:51.359
The clue is distress.
00:23:51.359 --> 00:23:55.599
Now, the challenge with that is sometimes we bury that distress.
00:23:55.599 --> 00:23:57.119
We've learned to bury it.
00:23:57.119 --> 00:24:02.000
And then as I mentioned before, we start, I don't know why I keep having these migraines.
00:24:02.000 --> 00:24:04.079
And I don't know why I can't sleep.
00:24:04.079 --> 00:24:09.039
And it the physical manifest begins to be evident.
00:24:09.039 --> 00:24:17.440
And those things at their root are rooted in a chronic level of stress, which produces inflammation.
00:24:17.440 --> 00:24:27.839
And I am certainly not a medical, I'm not a doctor, but there is enough evidence out there that all of us can read that tells us these are the signs that we need to pay attention.
00:24:28.079 --> 00:24:28.559
It's funny.
00:24:28.559 --> 00:24:29.839
So I pulled out a book.
00:24:29.839 --> 00:24:34.400
I have a book called Feelings Buried Alive, Never Die by Carol, Carol K.
00:24:34.400 --> 00:24:35.200
Truman.
00:24:35.200 --> 00:24:41.920
And this book is so funny because often when clients come to me, they'll say, I've been having migraines, right?
00:24:41.920 --> 00:24:48.960
Or this body part hurts, or I've always had problems with my colon, or and I'll look it up.
00:24:48.960 --> 00:24:52.640
Have you ever felt this or this or this?
00:24:52.640 --> 00:24:56.559
And they're like, Is that yeah, anger's where?
00:24:56.559 --> 00:24:59.200
Oh my gosh, all I had to do was forgive people.
00:24:59.200 --> 00:25:30.720
Oh no, I can't forgive, but our body is so amazing, and it comes and it it doesn't necessarily know what to do with those feelings at the time, it just knows we're feeling them, and how many people take their emotions because they're either in a different work and they can't deal with it, or they're at home and they can't deal with it, and we stuff them and we stuff them and we stuff them and we stuff them, and then we get so used to stuffing them that we continue to stuff them, and then all of a sudden they present as a health issue, and you're like, holy moly, where did that come from?
00:25:30.720 --> 00:25:31.920
I don't know where that came from.
00:25:31.920 --> 00:25:36.400
It's out of the blue, and it's like, haven't you have a headache for like three months now?
00:25:36.400 --> 00:25:36.880
Really?
00:25:36.880 --> 00:25:38.799
You've not been sleeping for how long?
00:25:39.039 --> 00:25:43.839
And they pursue the medical care and the medical providers are stumped, right?
00:25:43.839 --> 00:25:50.160
They say, I mean, I've talked to countless people who say, I've been to every provider and nobody can give me an answer.
00:25:50.160 --> 00:25:55.039
And is it possible that they have something that has not been recorded in the medical books?
00:25:55.039 --> 00:25:58.559
Okay, but that's a probably a remote possibility.
00:25:58.559 --> 00:26:16.160
It is more likely that chronic perseverative states of high stress, of not giving attention to their body, of bearing those early signs, the body doesn't just show up one day and all of a sudden I'm in full-blown attack on myself.
00:26:16.160 --> 00:26:18.559
It is a gradual process.
00:26:18.559 --> 00:26:29.200
And when we don't, when we've been taught by our families or by society not to acknowledge those things, then we learned that it doesn't do us any good.
00:26:29.200 --> 00:26:30.640
Just bury it, bury it.
00:26:30.640 --> 00:26:34.720
And I think, especially as women, I have a very strong career.
00:26:34.720 --> 00:26:40.960
And moving into a career, it is pretty widely acknowledged that you're not supposed to be emotional when you're in a career, right?
00:26:40.960 --> 00:26:43.440
As a woman, you're supposed to be more stoic.
00:26:43.440 --> 00:26:51.119
But then on the other hand, we also have men who have been having to live by the same guidelines of you're not allowed to be emotional.
00:26:51.119 --> 00:26:57.039
Don't display what we call negative emotion instead of recognizing that that comes from a place.
00:26:57.039 --> 00:27:01.440
And when we release it, it doesn't have to be something that is bad.
00:27:01.440 --> 00:27:06.240
It doesn't have to create disaster in our lives and it doesn't have to generate fear.
00:27:06.240 --> 00:27:10.559
It can actually just be a really natural part of living that we move through.
00:27:10.559 --> 00:27:14.480
And when we do that, we're able to release that stress cycle.
00:27:14.480 --> 00:27:22.799
And it's pretty profound when you look at the evidence of what that does when you release it for the body's ability to go back and heal.
00:27:23.119 --> 00:27:27.359
Just be curious if your body's aching, have I been doing something?
00:27:27.359 --> 00:27:30.240
Or is there something that doesn't feel right or feels off?
00:27:30.240 --> 00:27:32.160
It can be as simple as that, right?
00:27:32.160 --> 00:27:38.960
But I think we're just so used to going, I'm getting older, or I chase the kids or the grandkids around, or it's just me.
00:27:38.960 --> 00:27:39.920
It's like, no.
00:27:39.920 --> 00:27:44.960
And caregivers seem to be the worst at caring for themselves.
00:27:45.200 --> 00:27:46.400
Absolutely, absolutely.
00:27:46.400 --> 00:27:48.240
Again, the expectation.
00:27:48.240 --> 00:27:58.240
Caregivers, I'm sure you know this, hold an enormous amount of internal guilt and the in inner conflict of I must provide this care.
00:27:58.240 --> 00:28:03.039
And yet they still have these desires of wanting to live a life.
00:28:03.039 --> 00:28:09.279
Nobody, nobody wakes up and says, I just can't wait for the day that I'm going to care for my spouse or for my parent.
00:28:09.279 --> 00:28:12.720
That is not a dream that people put into their minds.
00:28:12.720 --> 00:28:24.000
And so when that does occur, it is very natural for people to slip into that mode of expectation versus my dream that I feel like I'm having to bury.
00:28:24.160 --> 00:28:30.720
And then if that person, if they're caregiving for someone at the end of their life, and then that ends, they're well, what do I do now?
00:28:30.720 --> 00:28:32.319
They were my whole life.
00:28:32.319 --> 00:28:33.119
That's what I hear.
00:28:33.119 --> 00:28:33.920
They were my whole life.
00:28:33.920 --> 00:28:34.720
What do I do now?
00:28:34.720 --> 00:28:41.519
Or if they've raised kids and they've cared for them and got them off to school or off to college, what do I do with myself now?
00:28:41.519 --> 00:28:42.160
Right.
00:28:42.160 --> 00:28:44.319
What what did you want to do before?
00:28:44.319 --> 00:28:46.079
Maybe you want to do it again.
00:28:46.559 --> 00:28:47.599
Absolutely.
00:28:48.319 --> 00:28:54.960
Let's take a pause and just take a slow breath in and let it out.
00:28:54.960 --> 00:29:01.119
And ask yourself, who am I when I'm not taking care of everyone else?
00:29:01.119 --> 00:29:05.599
Or maybe what role am I carrying that may no longer fit?
00:29:05.599 --> 00:29:11.759
What might I discover if I listen to myself honestly?
00:29:11.759 --> 00:29:17.519
I know a lot of people are thinking, uh-oh.
00:29:17.519 --> 00:29:29.359
So, Katherine, what do you see happen when someone's life looks successful on paper, but no longer aligns with what matters most to them?
00:29:29.519 --> 00:29:36.400
Well, it calls for an adjustment, and that in and of itself can also lead to loss.
00:29:36.400 --> 00:29:38.640
I just encountered this just the other day.
00:29:38.640 --> 00:29:48.160
Somebody was really feeling fulfilled in many ways in a job that they had, and yet there were some things that were missing.
00:29:48.160 --> 00:29:55.599
And so they decided after a lot of thought to depart from that job and to do something different.
00:29:55.599 --> 00:30:11.039
There's a lot of feelings that were coming up for that individual because they had anticipation, of course, of what they're stepping into, but also a tremendous amount of grief, a tremendous amount of loss over what they were stepping away from.
00:30:11.039 --> 00:30:19.599
I think sometimes we get confused about that and we think that means that it was a bad decision because grief was experienced or because loss was experienced.
00:30:19.599 --> 00:30:23.680
And of course, I'm using an example today of a voluntary transition, right?
00:30:23.680 --> 00:30:25.599
And not all of us experience that.
00:30:25.599 --> 00:30:27.279
Sometimes it's imposed on us.
00:30:27.279 --> 00:30:33.039
We need to understand that those feelings can sit side by side and they should sit side by side.
00:30:33.039 --> 00:30:35.920
And it's okay to feel it all.
00:30:35.920 --> 00:30:36.799
It's okay.
00:30:36.799 --> 00:30:40.480
And we need to make room for that, make space for that in our lives and in our minds.
00:30:40.640 --> 00:30:46.400
One of the grief programs I use says any change we experience may or may not need to be grief.
00:30:46.400 --> 00:30:51.680
It may be your child going from one school to the next school because of changing grades.
00:30:51.680 --> 00:30:56.160
Maybe their teacher goes out on maternity leave and now they have a substitute.
00:30:56.160 --> 00:31:00.079
Maybe they voluntarily said, This job's not working for me.
00:31:00.079 --> 00:31:01.440
I need to go somewhere else.
00:31:01.440 --> 00:31:09.039
Yes, there may be some grief over leaving your coworkers and the status or the position or the easy drive.
00:31:09.039 --> 00:31:16.079
But when you look at the pros of what the new job is going to offer, it doesn't mean we negate the old feelings.
00:31:16.079 --> 00:31:21.279
We need to still deal with them, or we're gonna take some extra baggage with us to this wonderful new place.
00:31:21.279 --> 00:31:22.000
That's it.
00:31:22.000 --> 00:31:22.559
That's it.
00:31:22.559 --> 00:31:23.680
I don't want to do that.
00:31:23.680 --> 00:31:31.039
I know you do a lot of your retreats in Scotland and you describe it as more than a simple place to visit.
00:31:31.039 --> 00:31:36.400
What was happening inside of you on your first visit there that you just felt so drawn to it?
00:31:36.640 --> 00:31:39.359
Laura, it was absolutely transformational.
00:31:39.359 --> 00:31:47.599
My family and I were driving through the Highlands, and we were doing basically an entire tour of uh the entire span of the country.
00:31:47.599 --> 00:31:55.839
And we ended up for a few days in the highlands, and we drove in and there were these beautiful mountains.
00:31:55.839 --> 00:32:01.839
I now know it as the Glencoe Mountain Range, and pulled in there and got out.
00:32:01.839 --> 00:32:05.839
And I was not, it's important to know that I was not an outdoorsy girl.
00:32:05.839 --> 00:32:09.119
I, if I went camping, I was camping in a travel trailer.
00:32:09.119 --> 00:32:11.440
I cooked my s'mores in the microwave, Laura.
00:32:11.440 --> 00:32:14.079
So I was not an outdoors girl.
00:32:14.079 --> 00:32:19.200
And so I got out of the car and stood there looking at these mountains.
00:32:19.200 --> 00:32:25.680
And of course, it's it's exactly how you would imagine with the fog, the mist rolling in, and it's just moody.
00:32:25.680 --> 00:32:30.880
And I'm looking and I instantly felt connected to the earth.
00:32:30.880 --> 00:32:40.559
I had never felt that before in my life, didn't really understand what I was feeling, but found this draw of I just want to be here.
00:32:40.559 --> 00:32:44.079
And it felt instantly quiet inside of me.
00:32:44.079 --> 00:32:54.079
And for those who know me, that's a miracle in and of itself because I am constantly generating new thoughts, new ideas for my company or for myself, my family.
00:32:54.079 --> 00:33:03.519
And so for quiet to just be put upon me and for me to stand there and be in awe of this majestic view was was quite profound.
00:33:03.519 --> 00:33:05.519
We came home after that trip.
00:33:05.519 --> 00:33:09.440
I'd seen also when I was looking at these mountains that there were these little trails.
00:33:09.440 --> 00:33:11.440
And I thought, oh, there's people out there walking.
00:33:11.440 --> 00:33:14.319
Okay, I don't know what that's about, but that that looks fun.
00:33:14.319 --> 00:33:25.440
And uh came home, did a little more research, convinced my adult children to do this hike called the West Highland Way in the Highlands of Scotland.
00:33:25.440 --> 00:33:31.279
And it is a 96-mile trek through the Highlands and never done anything like that before.
00:33:31.279 --> 00:33:34.799
I'm not a hiker, not an outdoors person, thought I want to do this.
00:33:34.799 --> 00:33:40.079
So convinced them and uh we trained for it and we did it this last summer.
00:33:40.079 --> 00:33:46.799
And I taking my my children over, I didn't know if they would experience something similar.
00:33:46.799 --> 00:33:54.799
You know, I thought maybe this is just a me thing, I'm a little bizarre about it, now a little obsessed with it, and maybe it's just me.
00:33:54.799 --> 00:33:58.240
But they experienced the same thing.
00:33:58.240 --> 00:34:04.000
And I have talked to so many people that go over and say, What is this?
00:34:04.000 --> 00:34:06.160
What is this about this space?
00:34:06.160 --> 00:34:22.079
So when I developed Stone and Sky Retreats, it was with the thought in mind that so often when we when we come into a space for the first time, we see all the new things and we can experience it as a new person and it feels exciting.
00:34:22.079 --> 00:34:28.960
But the more that we see it, it becomes familiar and we start to lose sight of all of the details about it.
00:34:28.960 --> 00:34:46.719
And so I thought about that in regards to our life and how we struggle to see our own authenticity, how we struggle to understand our own values because we have tuned up, we've turned up the volume of everything around us and we've turned down the volume of us, of our voice.
00:34:46.719 --> 00:34:57.679
And I knew Scotland would just be an amazing backdrop to be able to go and have that quiet induced on people and they could then hear themselves.
00:34:57.679 --> 00:35:13.679
And so that's what we're doing with Stone and Sky Retreats is we're taking people to one of the most beautiful, one of the most the oldest places on the planet and uh allowing people the opportunity to get quiet so that they can hear themselves again.
00:35:13.840 --> 00:35:17.199
Why do you think people are drawn to various places?
00:35:17.199 --> 00:35:20.320
I know I personally love going anywhere in the mountains.
00:35:20.320 --> 00:35:22.639
So now I'm intrigued with Scotland Mountains.
00:35:22.639 --> 00:35:24.639
Why do you think we're drawn to places?
00:35:24.639 --> 00:35:32.079
And what do you think those places awaken us for things that maybe we're not expecting, like you saw in your family and other scents?
00:35:32.400 --> 00:35:33.599
That's a great question.
00:35:33.599 --> 00:35:38.239
And I don't entirely know why what it is.
00:35:38.239 --> 00:35:41.119
There's a concept of the DNA.
00:35:41.119 --> 00:35:43.920
In fact, I had someone ask me the other day, are you from Scotland?
00:35:43.920 --> 00:35:45.840
And I said, No, but my DNA is.
00:35:45.840 --> 00:35:52.960
And so I would imagine that has a great deal, knowing what is important, looking at my own family history.
00:35:52.960 --> 00:36:09.519
I do have family roots that go back several generations in Scotland and understanding, for example, what really kind of helped solidify things for me, one of the big moments for me is the idea that I am a woman and I am an and I am a business owner.
00:36:09.519 --> 00:36:22.880
And to know that I have a line of women in my family going back generations, that actually solidifies me a little bit more because it's not just about me now.
00:36:22.880 --> 00:36:28.239
I recognize this is something that has been kind of carried through this line of women.
00:36:28.239 --> 00:36:45.599
And I think that when we look at places, it has that same power to understand that there were people that walked that trail long before I was even thought of that possibly have the same traces of DNA that I am carrying today.
00:36:45.599 --> 00:36:48.880
That's pretty wild to think about it that way.
00:36:48.880 --> 00:36:54.880
So I think that places do offer us the opportunity to get ourselves quiet.
00:36:54.880 --> 00:36:59.440
New places can be a lot more powerful than what is the familiar.
00:36:59.440 --> 00:37:01.280
I figured it worked for me.
00:37:01.280 --> 00:37:05.760
And if it worked for me, then it probably would work for a handful of other people as well.
00:37:06.000 --> 00:37:08.159
I know people struggle to slow down.
00:37:08.159 --> 00:37:14.559
Lives are busy, chaotic, and sometimes when people do slow down, they feel very uncomfortable.
00:37:14.559 --> 00:37:16.960
What have you learned about stillness?
00:37:17.679 --> 00:37:23.280
I was one of those people, Laura, that when when it got quiet, that was miserable.
00:37:23.280 --> 00:37:27.760
My brain would just start to produce because I didn't want the quiet.
00:37:27.760 --> 00:37:33.280
I had to learn how to be okay with being uncomfortable.
00:37:33.280 --> 00:37:37.519
And so when the people talk a lot about meditation, I mean that's a pretty common thing.
00:37:37.519 --> 00:37:38.800
I work in mental health.
00:37:38.800 --> 00:37:42.079
The concept of mindfulness is presented over and over again.
00:37:42.079 --> 00:37:44.159
We know it's a powerful tool to use.
00:37:44.159 --> 00:37:47.360
Lots of people don't understand how to use it.
00:37:47.360 --> 00:37:56.480
They think that it's supposed to be the absence of thought, they try to fight it, and they don't understand that it is meant to produce some discomfort.
00:37:56.480 --> 00:38:13.679
The goal is to become comfortable with discomfort, to be able to stay regulated in that space, even though a thought or a feeling is being produced that isn't what your brain is saying you exactly want to do in that moment.
00:38:13.679 --> 00:38:19.280
So that has been the journey for me of figuring out it's okay to be quiet.
00:38:19.280 --> 00:38:24.239
It's okay, it was simple things like going to a restaurant and sitting by myself.
00:38:24.239 --> 00:38:26.559
That was not something I could do before.
00:38:26.559 --> 00:38:29.440
I was very uncomfortable with that concept.
00:38:29.440 --> 00:38:31.679
And now I crave it.
00:38:31.679 --> 00:38:43.599
I crave having space where I can just go inward a little bit and not feel like I've got demands on me and expectations that are being imposed on me.
00:38:43.760 --> 00:38:52.559
I am very much an extrovert, but there's a point if I'm doing a speaking event or I'm at a conference where I have had too much people.
00:38:52.559 --> 00:38:53.440
Yes.
00:38:53.440 --> 00:38:54.719
Just way too much.
00:38:54.719 --> 00:38:58.320
I am the one who doesn't want a roommate unless it's my husband.
00:38:58.480 --> 00:38:58.719
Right.
00:38:58.960 --> 00:39:02.960
I don't want to go back and have somebody else have the TV blaring.
00:39:02.960 --> 00:39:06.559
I need quiet to to process all of the people.
00:39:06.559 --> 00:39:11.679
And then after I have my timeout that I put myself on, then absolutely I can join you at Disney.
00:39:11.679 --> 00:39:14.159
I need to recharge.
00:39:14.159 --> 00:39:17.199
I need to get rid of the excess so I can recharge.
00:39:17.199 --> 00:39:19.280
And then I'm ready to go again.
00:39:19.280 --> 00:39:21.440
I tell people, okay, I'm uncomfortable now.
00:39:21.440 --> 00:39:22.800
I have to go be by myself.
00:39:22.800 --> 00:39:24.960
And they're like, isn't that the most uncomfortable thing?
00:39:24.960 --> 00:39:27.760
I'm like, no, I just need to go and be by myself.
00:39:27.760 --> 00:39:29.679
Now, for some people, that's taking a bath.
00:39:29.679 --> 00:39:31.440
For some people, it's journaling.
00:39:31.440 --> 00:39:38.639
Any of those sound good, but sometimes it's just removing yourself from one place where there's just so much noise going on.
00:39:39.039 --> 00:39:39.760
Right, right.
00:39:39.760 --> 00:39:50.079
And that is one of the things that we really were careful about as we were curating these retreats and figuring out what kind of a model, because there's so many different styles of retreat.
00:39:50.079 --> 00:39:55.760
You can go on ones where it is about isolation, it is about really being individual.
00:39:55.760 --> 00:40:12.800
And we wanted something, though, that would allow opportunity for people to find their individuality and work on their own authenticity, but also be able to practice it and develop relationships with other people in a really safe space.
00:40:12.800 --> 00:40:14.559
That is what we have done.
00:40:14.559 --> 00:40:21.199
And then, of course, integrating workshops coupled with being able to see the landscape of Scotland.
00:40:21.199 --> 00:40:26.239
Because I thought it's unforgivable to take people all the way to Scotland and they sit in a house all day.
00:40:26.239 --> 00:40:31.599
But you've got to be able to get out and to experience the land and experience the people and the culture.
00:40:31.599 --> 00:40:33.280
That's what we do on these retreats.
00:40:33.519 --> 00:40:34.880
That sounds so much fun.
00:40:34.880 --> 00:40:40.400
When people stop performing, what do they discover by paying attention to themselves?
00:40:40.559 --> 00:40:45.280
They discover an incredible core of who they are.
00:40:45.280 --> 00:40:49.119
There is, and it's so pleasing because it's the essence itself.
00:40:49.119 --> 00:40:54.159
It's you without all the trimmings, without all the extras that are piled on.
00:40:54.159 --> 00:40:55.199
It's just you.
00:40:55.199 --> 00:40:57.119
And there's nothing wrong with that.
00:40:57.119 --> 00:40:57.679
Nothing.
00:40:57.679 --> 00:41:00.880
It is pure, it is perfect, it is purpose.
00:41:00.880 --> 00:41:06.719
And so when people step into that, the distress that they were experiencing dissolves.
00:41:06.719 --> 00:41:08.079
The distress isn't there.
00:41:08.079 --> 00:41:08.960
It is peace.
00:41:08.960 --> 00:41:17.760
And like I've said about me craving that quiet time, when you experience it, you want it again and again.
00:41:18.000 --> 00:41:23.519
For someone who feels disconnected from themselves now, where does reconnection begin?
00:41:23.760 --> 00:41:27.199
It begins with first identifying what your values are.
00:41:27.199 --> 00:41:32.800
There's a little exercise that people can do that can expose what their values are.
00:41:32.800 --> 00:41:37.920
And this can be a little bit scary sometimes for people because sometimes what's revealed is not what they wanted.
00:41:37.920 --> 00:41:39.920
Um the exercise is very simple.
00:41:39.920 --> 00:41:43.440
It is about getting out a piece of paper and a pen.
00:41:43.440 --> 00:41:54.079
I think it's very important to do it with a piece of paper, with writing it down, because when we keep it in our head, our brain will actually change the answers to give us what we want rather than what is.
00:41:54.079 --> 00:41:56.800
I have people sit down and write out.
00:41:56.800 --> 00:41:58.400
We take 60 seconds.
00:41:58.400 --> 00:42:01.840
Sometimes we'll go up to two minutes if people are really needing that.
00:42:01.840 --> 00:42:03.920
But write out right now.
00:42:03.920 --> 00:42:05.760
Tell me the things that are important to you.
00:42:05.760 --> 00:42:07.280
And they write those things out.
00:42:07.280 --> 00:42:14.320
And it can be sometimes people list a person, they list a characteristic, a trait, an idea, a place, whatever.
00:42:14.320 --> 00:42:15.440
There's no wrong.
00:42:15.440 --> 00:42:16.960
It's just write it out.
00:42:16.960 --> 00:42:20.000
It's just that free association where the brain just kind of dumps.
00:42:20.000 --> 00:42:24.639
Sometimes people usually have a flood of things that first come out.
00:42:24.639 --> 00:42:30.400
There is often an instinct to hold back on something and say, oh, no, no, no, that's not actually important.
00:42:30.400 --> 00:42:34.719
And I really try to preface the work with anything that comes.
00:42:34.719 --> 00:42:36.719
There is nothing that we say no to.
00:42:36.719 --> 00:42:39.440
If it came to your thought, it gets written down.
00:42:39.440 --> 00:42:45.119
And then we step back from that and we look at the top three to five things.
00:42:45.119 --> 00:42:47.840
Three is a much simpler way to look at it.
00:42:47.840 --> 00:42:50.639
And we say, those are the values.
00:42:50.639 --> 00:42:52.079
Those are the top priorities.
00:42:52.079 --> 00:42:58.719
And this has been hard for people because sometimes what has come up for a lot of people when they do this is money.
00:42:58.719 --> 00:43:03.039
And then they go, I don't want that to be above relationships.
00:43:03.039 --> 00:43:04.639
Why am I valuing that?
00:43:04.639 --> 00:43:17.280
And it doesn't necessarily mean that that's where they have to land, that they have to live the rest of their life out, aligning with this concept of money is the most important, but it can really help them understand what they think about money.
00:43:17.280 --> 00:43:19.679
Is it money or is it security?
00:43:19.679 --> 00:43:20.880
Is it safety?
00:43:20.880 --> 00:43:22.079
Is it freedom?
00:43:22.079 --> 00:43:23.199
Is it pleasure?
00:43:23.199 --> 00:43:26.320
There are so many different aspects that are wrapped up in that.
00:43:26.320 --> 00:43:32.400
That would be the introduction to discovering who you are is doing that values exercise.
00:43:32.639 --> 00:43:36.719
Like that, and I especially love when people use pen and paper.
00:43:36.719 --> 00:43:39.599
Whenever they journal, I'll hear people, okay, I've got my phone out.
00:43:39.599 --> 00:43:41.360
And I'm like, no, no, no, no, no, no.
00:43:41.360 --> 00:43:49.119
I want you to physically grab a pen and actually the motion of writing from here down is so important.
00:43:49.360 --> 00:43:49.519
Right.
00:43:49.679 --> 00:43:58.559
Because, like you said, if you keep it up here or you keep it in your phone, we're so accustomed to, oh, I can just backspace that or I can delete it or I can replace it.
00:43:58.559 --> 00:44:02.159
But if you write it, it's like yes, not eliminating the record.
00:44:02.159 --> 00:44:03.519
Definitely, definitely.
00:44:03.519 --> 00:44:14.559
Katherine, if someone is listening today and they realize they've spent years coping, performing, and pushing through, but no longer feel connected to themselves, what would you want them to know?
00:44:14.800 --> 00:44:15.920
It's not too late.
00:44:15.920 --> 00:44:17.679
It literally is not too late.
00:44:17.679 --> 00:44:34.320
Even if you told someone you only have one week to live the rest of your life on this earth, I would still encourage them to get quiet, step inside, and figure out what's important so that whatever time they have left is lived with authenticity.
00:44:34.320 --> 00:44:46.400
And when you have that authenticity, if you if your listeners are listening today and they think about I'm in distress, I'm struggling with some things, that is an indicator that they are missing something.
00:44:46.400 --> 00:44:49.599
Something is inauthentic about the way that they're living.
00:44:49.599 --> 00:44:53.679
So I would encourage them to start to do the work and they won't regret it.
00:44:53.679 --> 00:45:01.119
It doesn't matter if they just take one step or if they take a hundred steps or 96 miles like I did across Scotland, the work will pay off.
00:45:01.440 --> 00:45:10.800
If this conversation has resonated with you today, you can learn more about Katherine and her transformational retreats at stoneandskyretreats.com.
00:45:10.800 --> 00:45:15.760
You can also check out her book, Keeping It Real, Discovering Your Authentic Self.
00:45:15.760 --> 00:45:18.800
And I'll put links for both of those in the show notes.
00:45:18.800 --> 00:45:21.440
Katherine, thank you so much for joining me today.
00:45:21.679 --> 00:45:22.719
Thank you again, Laura.
00:45:22.719 --> 00:45:24.800
It really has been lovely to have the conversation.
00:45:25.039 --> 00:45:27.920
Sometimes healing begins when we stop asking.
00:45:27.920 --> 00:45:33.280
And start asking, How am I really doing?
00:45:33.280 --> 00:45:37.760
Maybe authenticity isn't becoming someone new.
00:45:37.760 --> 00:45:41.760
Maybe it's remembering you were who you were before.
00:45:41.760 --> 00:45:48.000
Exhaustion, expectations, survival, and you convinced yourself otherwise.
00:45:48.000 --> 00:45:51.199
My friend, hear this blessing today.
00:45:51.199 --> 00:45:53.920
May you find the courage to slow down.
00:45:53.920 --> 00:45:59.119
May you notice the places where you've been surviving instead of living.
00:45:59.119 --> 00:46:02.800
May you release the pressure to keep performing.
00:46:02.800 --> 00:46:12.559
May you reconnect with the values, dreams, and truths that matter most, and may you trust that who you truly are is not lost.
00:46:12.559 --> 00:46:19.599
Perhaps that simply waiting for you to come home and you can be there for them.
00:46:19.599 --> 00:46:22.159
Until next time, they pull up a chair.