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00:00:05.599Hi everyone, Nick Petrella here.
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00:00:11.039This episode is sponsored by Steve Weiss Music, percussion specialist since 1961.
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00:00:59.840Welcome to the Arts Entrepreneurship Podcast, Making Art Work.
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00:01:07.920We highlight how entrepreneurs align their artistry, passion, and vision to create and pursue opportunities to capture value in the arts.
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00:01:16.079The views expressed by guests on the Arts Entrepreneurship Podcast are solely their own, and do not necessarily represent the views of the podcast or its hosts.
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00:01:34.239Here are your hosts, Andy Heise and Nick Petrella.
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00:01:40.400Hi Arts Entrepreneurship Podcast listeners.
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00:01:41.280I'm Andy Heise.
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00:01:42.719And I'm Nick Petrella.
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00:01:44.719Tom Teasley is joining us today.
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00:01:56.400He's an internationally acclaimed percussionist, composer, educator, author, and multimedia artist whose work explores the intersection of rhythm, culture, technology, and the human connection.
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00:02:10.240Described by the Washington Post as a musical wizard and a multi-instrumental genius, he's built a career that spans jazz, world music, theater, silent film, contemporary performance, education, and immersive sound experiences.
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00:02:36.960Thank you for having me.
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00:02:38.479Delighted to be here.
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00:02:41.360Your musical career spans more than 30 years.
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00:02:45.520Let's start by having you walk us through your journey as a professional musician.
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00:02:58.719Well, uh well, you know, back when I started playing in the old days, uh, when people were still writing on stone tablets, uh kids were not on their iPhones all the time.
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00:03:00.960And so they they started bands.
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00:03:08.639And I happened to be in a neighborhood where uh, you know, there were some older kids than I that that played different instruments.
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00:03:12.080I played uh, I didn't really even play the drums.
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00:03:15.039I wanted to, and I had a snare drum.
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00:03:18.240And uh so one thing led to another.
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00:03:27.360I I got a couple, I got a couple more instruments, and by the time I was 12, uh, we were, you know, we were playing at dances and parties.
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00:03:29.680You know, this was before the DJs and stuff like that.
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00:03:38.879So so at a very young age, you know, I was supplementing my paper out money and so and then ultimately replaced it with uh with gigging.
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00:03:47.120And I was I was pretty much self-taught uh until my last two years of high school.
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00:03:57.759And I got with a good teacher, uh uh Al Murs, who was playing with the National Symphony, and he got me to the place where I kind of faked my way into Peabody.
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00:04:05.759And uh and I once once I I thought before I went there, I thought, oh man, I've you know I've I've I've got it down.
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00:04:07.199This music thing's easy.
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00:04:14.000And then uh and then I got there and saw like like you know what I had been missing the last you know 13 years.
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00:04:18.079Uh but but I I worked really hard, at least for a couple of years.
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00:04:31.199I had kind of a spotty career at school bit because uh because since I kind of came from the street, I was I was working, you know, I started gigging soon and and would would go on the road periodically.
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00:04:38.800Ultimately, uh it took me a while, but I graduated and I started touring uh with a blues band.
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00:04:41.360Uh and we spent a lot of time in New Orleans.
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00:04:54.000That was kind of a pivotal point for me because I was hearing a lot of world percussion, world rhythms, world music, uh experiences, but but filtered through the American experience.
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00:05:08.000You know, I was hearing Calypso and African and all that, and and it it immediately got me to the place where I was thinking, wow, uh, you know, I wasn't hearing this when I was learning these Motown songs exactly, and I certainly wasn't learning that at Peabody.
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00:05:18.560Uh, and so that instilled an interest to go to uh to master percussionists from Africa and India and the Middle East.
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00:05:33.759And since I had been in music school and later on I was studying with Joe Morello, and that gave me the tools to kind of put together uh the ways that these instruments and rhythms and techniques were similar.
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00:05:37.120So it was a short while after that.
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00:05:46.160I I was doing a little bit of international touring, but I was specifically invited to perform at an international music festival in Bahrain.
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00:05:59.040And uh, and I have a solo percussion I was doing with looping and all that kind of stuff, but I I heard these Bahraini drummers playing, and they were playing, it wasn't like the Middle Eastern music I was I had been studying.
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00:06:06.560Um so I immediately went to the producer of the festival and I said, you know, I I I want to play with those guys.
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00:06:08.399I don't I don't know what we're gonna do.
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00:06:18.399And so that that led to uh, you know, the the cultural minister from Bahrain that was there, the US Embassy was brought in as my fiscal sponsor.
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00:06:28.560So so that kind of st you know put me on a conveyor belt of doing of doing a lot of work for the State Department, which I know is another another uh question later on.
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00:06:51.600Yeah but but but that led to ultimately to my working with uh some theater companies and because I was doing these uh these epic things from uh by Mary Zimmerman, these you know that that were frequently influenced, but like uh we did Arabian Nights, for example, and so so all of these world music concepts.
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00:07:12.000And then that because I was doing that, that led to uh to a solo career doing doing that similar work, and ultimately uh that has has kind of pivoted into a place now where I'm I'm taking some of this work and using it for sound healing, which I know is another question.
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00:07:14.240So that that's kind of the Cliff Notes version there.
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00:07:18.240So so from the very beginning, it's it's been pretty eclectic.
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00:07:55.279It's been very eclectic, and I guess I guess this would be a point where I I might say to somebody that's listening to this, that is let's say they're in school and and they're trying to figure all this stuff out, uh I'd say what you want to make sure that you are doing is finding a continuing thread of your work, your work, that that defines you uh so that uh that that crosses multiple areas because it's very likely that you're gonna end up doing something that you're not being trained in school to do.
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00:08:13.040So the more that you can keep an open mind and yet uh find all of the elements that are interesting to you, musical and non-musical, and try and string them together in a way that defines you, then you become, I hate to say it, but you you become the product.
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00:08:20.959You you become the end thing, not not a world percussionist, or not a hot jazz percussionist, or not uh not an orchestral percussionist.
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00:08:25.279So so I I just want to kind of plant that seed that we'll talk about later.
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00:08:26.240Perfect.
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00:08:38.879So and it also sounds like from I mean from the outset, you started playing in bands and you recognize that oh, if I if I learn these tunes, there's opportunities for me to go out and play, maybe make a little money.
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00:08:44.240Uh so that's always sort of been in your your psyche or approach to to playing music.
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00:08:46.240It has served me well.
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00:08:58.159Uh, you know, I it I always, you know, for from literally the time I was 12, you know, I I I I I considered myself a gigging musician, you know.
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00:09:05.440And uh and you know, that there there were times where I sh I showed up and I for I forgot my drumsticks or I forgot something.
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00:09:11.440You know, I did I did the kind of stupid stuff that a 12 13-year-old would do, but but I learned it then, you know.
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00:09:27.039So so uh yeah, you know, it it and the more that you can put yourself in that frame of mind, like I I I teach uh still at UDC, which is an inner city school and um in the District of Columbia, of course.
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00:09:42.000And you know, I've got students coming from all kinds of backgrounds, and you know, I I want them to know that you know you you are setting yourself up to be as professional as a lawyer or a doctor, you know, carry yourself that way and act that way.
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00:09:43.519Yeah, yeah, yeah.
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00:09:48.559I love that you said, you know, you learned a lot of things, uh, because I was I was gonna follow up with you about that.
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00:09:54.559You know, there's certainly like playing in a band, certainly you're learning songs and kind of figuring out what it means to play in a band.
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00:10:05.279But what what are some of those other skills that you develop from that experience that maybe again aren't they're not like you're not gonna find it in in a music curriculum or something like that?
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00:10:06.080Yeah.
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00:10:20.480Uh well w one one thing is is being somebody you want to be on the bus with, you know, because that there there are tons of fabulous players that that they're they're just a pain to be around, you know.
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00:10:23.200And and so so that's number one.
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00:10:29.600And I I I don't feel like that was a problem with me necessarily, but but I certainly witnessed it with other people.
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00:10:35.759Yeah, and there were there were times where I felt myself kind of drifting into into that too.
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00:10:38.000So so that would be number one.
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00:10:48.240Uh number two is I was always trying to save money for something I wanted to do, you know.
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00:10:57.360So uh, you know, when I was 12, you know, I wasn't thinking about starting an IRA yet, but but but I was thinking about the next instruments I wanted.
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00:10:57.759Yeah, sure.
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00:11:10.240So so uh so it got me to the place where I was in the mindset of my music work supports my music career in the future.
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00:11:20.240So I I think that's I think that's an important element that if somebody can instill that earlier, it's not too early ever to get that going.
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00:11:23.840What whatever it is, you know, whether it's music or art or paint, you know, whatever.
00:11:24.159 -->
00:11:25.440And it's funny you're saying this.
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00:11:32.879I I just told one of our children the other day, I said, all those instruments I have, I've made money with every one of them.
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00:11:38.320I just didn't go out and buy them and put them on a wall or in a on a shelf or something.
00:11:38.320 -->
00:11:41.679So that you have that type of mental set, it sounds sounds like.
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00:11:44.480Yeah, uh, you know, and and it continues to this day.
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00:11:50.879Like, you know, I'm I'm I'm uh I I I'm I'm still putting out records, you know, I I hire a publicist, you know.
00:11:50.879 -->
00:11:58.639I I I you know, I I I feel like uh I am at a place where you know I I could just be kind of kicking back.
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00:12:03.919Uh but but I'm still driven because because because I'm curious and interested.
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00:12:04.240Yeah.
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00:12:09.600But uh but it but I'm also contributing to the economy, you know, and and contributing to other people.
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00:12:23.039And I and I'll just say this is kind of uh tangentially, that I think that there are a lot of opportunities that do not exist now that did exist when I was starting out.
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00:12:25.600But I think they've been replaced by a lot of other things.
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00:12:38.559So I'm I'm seeing some of my younger students who are getting very savvy with with uh with with with using music for uh for video games and streaming and all kinds of things.
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00:12:43.200So there's a lot of there's a lot of opportunities you just need to to explore what they are.
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00:12:44.240That's great.
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00:12:45.039Yeah.
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00:12:51.840And uh correct me if I'm wrong, but I I read somewhere that your first sort of drum setup was was homemade.
00:12:51.840 -->
00:12:54.240It was like a broken drumstick and a wood block or something.
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00:12:55.360I I can't remember where I read it.
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00:12:58.799Well, yeah, yeah, that was like in this 15 questions uh from Germany.
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00:12:59.600Oh, yeah, yeah.
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00:13:01.519So so so well it is true.
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00:13:10.240Uh you know, I so so we're we're going back, you know, but before the the 12-year-old my rock star career.
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00:13:17.200But uh but when I when I was element in elementary school, I I I I maybe I should have started here.
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00:13:26.320But uh they used to have in the cafeteria, they would have the the this the drums there, you know, because there was no other place to put them.
00:13:26.320 -->
00:13:31.440And uh so kids, you know, of course, I I'm waiting to go in the cafeteria.
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00:13:36.399I tap uh tap on the snare drum, and it was like electricity went through me.
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00:13:40.639So so it was like I I I I knew that that was something I had to explore.
00:13:40.639 -->
00:13:43.919So I had at that point I had absolutely nothing.
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00:13:51.679So somebody else had had one of the other guys who was studying drums or something, uh, had a had thrown away a broken drumstick.
00:13:51.679 -->
00:13:54.559So I found the broken drumstick and there was a piece of wood.
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00:13:56.080So that was the first thing.
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00:14:00.399And then and then ultimately, uh, you know, I I had a little paper up money.
00:14:00.399 -->
00:14:05.840So I bought two drumsticks, you know, like like like new from the store, you know, and still had the block of wood.
00:14:05.840 -->
00:14:08.559I think ultimately I might have gotten a practice pet.
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00:14:12.320But uh, but yeah, so so it it but it was fun.
00:14:12.320 -->
00:14:17.840You know, I I I I did not think, oh, this this poor kid doesn't, you know, only has a broken drumstick.
00:14:17.840 -->
00:14:19.200It was it was it was my toy.
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00:14:20.639It's just the way it was, right.
00:14:20.639 -->
00:14:33.279And I'm wondering, like, did that that approach to uh playing drums or it's starting to to make some noise with with sticks and wood, does that approach that sort of like let's make do with what we have, does that approach sort of filter in throughout your other projects?
00:14:33.600 -->
00:14:42.960Well, I I'd say it does, but but where that really manifests, and I know that's kind of a later question too, but uh where it really manifests is when I'm traveling.
00:14:42.960 -->
00:14:57.600So, so uh for example, I I did a tour to Iraq, and uh the the stipulation was including my clothes, uh I I needed to have a rig that was 40 pounds.
00:14:57.600 -->
00:15:01.279Uh because because I was going, I was, you know, I was traveling on helicopters and things.
00:15:01.279 -->
00:15:03.600So uh you know, I I cheated by 10 pounds.
00:15:03.600 -->
00:15:06.720Oh, and they said, oh, and we want you to bring your own sound too.
00:15:06.720 -->
00:15:31.440So so uh so so I had I had this this small Yamaha uh powered speaker, and then and then uh Remo put together some uh PVC uh drums, you know, like a Jimbee and and uh what else I think Toka maybe helped me out with a PVC Rick and Darbuka.
00:15:31.440 -->
00:15:33.919And you know, and there's very little.
00:15:33.919 -->
00:15:35.919I brought one of my nicer frame drums.
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00:15:48.320But but yeah, and and then and now what I'm doing because I I I work periodically with uh this this thing I've developed called the art of the duo.
00:15:48.320 -->
00:16:03.600So so that that sets me up with uh a variety of different duo partners, uh, from trumpet to uh Chinese uh Hammer Dalsimore Young Shin and uh Celtic Fiddle and Clarinet and all these different things.
00:16:03.600 -->
00:16:06.720So so each one of those has a different setup.
00:16:06.720 -->
00:16:16.639And uh this gets this leans a little bit more into my musical aesthetic than just the functionality of it.
00:16:16.639 -->
00:16:36.960But but as a result of the study that I did for the um, you know, with combining all these these instruments and techniques, what I discovered was that instruments and rhythms there are there are more ways in which they are similar and than which they are different.
00:16:36.960 -->
00:16:44.480So it's not unusual for me to take uh uh uh a darbuka and and and play like some funk rhythms.
00:16:44.480 -->
00:16:53.919Uh, you know, I I just posted something recently where I was playing Charlie Parker uh melodies, well, the the rhythmic articulations on a darbuka.
00:16:53.919 -->
00:17:08.880And uh and I'm working on something now where I'm uh playing Jimbe and Cajon uh and trying to kind of recreate some of the Al Green grooves with with drums and uh and konga that that he was using too.
00:17:08.880 -->
00:17:18.400So so I'm I'm you know, and and as I continue to celebrate birthdays, I also become interested in in how how how light can these instruments be, you know.
00:17:18.400 -->
00:17:22.640It used to be it used to be when I would go check out an instrument, oh this sounds great.
00:17:22.640 -->
00:17:23.279This sounds great.
00:17:23.279 -->
00:17:27.279Now now before I touch it, I pick it up, oh this yeah, this this will work.
00:17:28.160 -->
00:17:28.559That's right.
00:17:28.559 -->
00:17:29.759Yeah.
00:17:29.759 -->
00:17:31.200Yeah, so I I love that.
00:17:31.200 -->
00:17:39.119It's it's about the outcome, not necessarily the the inputs uh uh when when you're when you're thinking about you know whatever it is you're doing.
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00:18:03.200Yeah, and uh, you know, I I uh I'm doing I'm I do uh I I shouldn't maybe mention that the what my one of my projects now is I'm working on a on a a new a new book uh though probably also manifest as an online course that that is basic all basically all of that and with specific exercises.
00:18:03.200 -->
00:18:11.359I I have a book that was published by Alfred, an American approach to world percussion, that was that kind of skimmed the surface of that, but this will be a much deeper dive.
00:18:11.839 -->
00:18:12.559That's awesome.
00:18:12.559 -->
00:18:22.319And you know, the the weight has practical implications because the bigger things are, right, when you ship instruments as a musician, they go by size and weight.
00:18:22.319 -->
00:18:23.039Right.
00:18:23.440 -->
00:18:28.000And and and you know, and traveling is is such a hassle anyway.
00:18:28.000 -->
00:18:31.680So uh, but and it hasn't gotten any easier.
00:18:31.680 -->
00:18:42.480But yeah, I but I but I I feel like I I did a uh two-month residency in Beijing, China, uh teaching at Beijing Language and Culture University.
00:18:42.480 -->
00:18:46.640I went with Chao, uh my my duo partner who plays the Yangxin.
00:18:46.640 -->
00:18:58.319And uh I think I'd all I brought was uh a cajon, a djembe, and a frame drum, and a melodica, and and some small shakers and things like that.
00:18:58.319 -->
00:18:59.279It was plenty.
00:18:59.519 -->
00:19:00.160Yeah, yeah.
00:19:00.160 -->
00:19:17.039Well, we're gonna talk about uh traveling here in a bit, but you know we've been friends for 25 years or so, and it's been fun for me to watch how your career has eve evolved and to see how you uh approach film, world music, and so on.
00:19:17.039 -->
00:19:27.119Where do you get your insp inspiration and uh is it from possible collaborations with with musicians or is it music or some degree of both?
00:19:29.680 -->
00:19:35.200Uh you know, I saw I saw I saw the question and I was I was giving it some thought.
00:19:35.200 -->
00:19:46.160And I'd have to say that probably first it is remaining open, and second, opportunities.
00:19:46.160 -->
00:19:50.960So so it it this this get kind of circles back to what I was talking about.
00:19:50.960 -->
00:20:14.640So for example, uh one of the projects I did for quite some time, which I didn't talk about, was uh a project I did with my colleague Charles Williams, where where we did a lot of poetry that I had uh set to music, a lot of Lynx and News and James Weldon Johnson and and other other po so I mean how much more esoteric can can you do, really?
00:20:14.640 -->
00:20:18.559You know, you know, a percussion and and poetry thing.
00:20:18.559 -->
00:20:22.880And uh, you know, and we were trying to fight the cliche of like the the bongo player, right?
00:20:22.880 -->
00:20:29.599Yeah, um but uh but we toured all over the world doing that.
00:20:29.599 -->
00:20:40.319And so uh and we and we recorded a couple records, but one of them was was heavily based on Langs and Hughes and the James Weldon Johnson uh God Trums Bones.
00:20:40.319 -->
00:20:49.839Uh and as it's as it turned out, uh a theater director got a copy of that record of The Godstrom Bones.
00:20:49.839 -->
00:20:51.839So uh here I was.
00:20:51.839 -->
00:20:54.480I was I was setting words to music.
00:20:54.480 -->
00:20:56.319That's what you do in theater, right?
00:20:56.319 -->
00:21:00.000So uh so she said, would would you be interested in doing that?
00:21:00.000 -->
00:21:04.559Uh and and she said, We're we're doing this Mary Zimmerman, Arabian Knights.
00:21:04.559 -->
00:21:17.039Uh so yeah, you know, at that point I I I had I had not gone to the Middle East yet, but but I but there the it was looming and I was I was a student of that.
00:21:17.039 -->
00:21:19.279So it was it was kind of in the background.
00:21:19.279 -->
00:21:32.960So so I did I did this show, and that was successful enough that for I'd say 10 to 12, maybe 15 years, uh that was kind of like a full-time part-time job for me.
00:21:33.119 -->
00:21:33.440Wow.
00:21:33.440 -->
00:21:33.839Yeah.
00:21:34.079 -->
00:21:43.680So uh doing sound design and live sound design, recorded sound design, recording and recordings of of the soundtracks of the of those pieces.
00:21:43.680 -->
00:21:57.279So so that kind of because I was doing that, that dovetailed with my going more uh to mostly the Middle East, but not only as a cultural envoy.
00:21:57.279 -->
00:21:59.759So so those two those two elements.
00:21:59.759 -->
00:22:01.440were feeding each other.
00:22:01.440 -->
00:22:16.160And uh, you know, I I at the Folger Theater, I did uh conference at the birds, the uh Farita Tar poetry, uh, you know, and and then I I did these ones from China and and Africa.
00:22:16.160 -->
00:22:30.880And so then somebody who was in the theater world who was in the theater world, but also a psychotherapist came to hear me do one of those and said, you know, this is really interesting.
00:22:30.880 -->
00:22:37.200And as it so turned out I was gonna I was gonna be doing a solo concert and I was just discovering the handpan.
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00:24:50.079So uh I played a little bit of that on on that and he said you know this is really amazing and I think this would work really well because what we do is we we take uh a group of professional psychotherapists and we present all over the world at the psychotherapy conventions stage readings that are on topic so so from the from the traveling from the State Department to to the theater kind of back to the State Department then uh this this opportunity to work with these psychotherapists and then a couple of them said you know this works really good I do uh guided meditations for returning USA ID workers uh would you mind doing that for me so uh so it was it it seemed like like this was a very natural continuancy it did it it was i i don't see any of these as like this this is my avant-garde jazz thing this is my new age world this is the my cultural envoy it was and it's true that that these were opportunities but but it was I feel like part of the reason I got these opportunities was because I I remained open to it and and it wasn't like you know I you know I I I I want to be a beboper you know or I or I I want to I I want to be I want to be like you know the the world music police or something you know it was like I whatever you know I I I I I want I want to contribute with music and sound and I'll also say this that if you can find if you can find a reason to do this that is beyond the professional activity but it but if you feel like you're really making a contribution that's what keeps you going like when when when times are rough you know so so that that that's something for a young person to keep in mind too because you know it's easy just to get career career career career you know you know so so and that's you know you you gotta you gotta pay your bills and you gotta you gotta eat but but the more that you can find a a reason to do this that's beyond that that's the and that that empowers everything that you do in my opinion.
00:24:50.400 -->
00:24:57.680Yeah for sure and you know that even when you're bringing two things together your your musical approach is like why not?
00:24:57.680 -->
00:25:01.599Why can't you do Charlie Parker on a Darabuka and things like that.
00:25:03.039 -->
00:25:45.680Real quick before Andy asks his uh next question uh when you're working with the psychotherapists uh is that grant funded uh sometimes it is the they usually have their own uh their own financial pool so uh that that means like when these things are at at conferences the conferences are pretty well funded oh okay what what what what I've been doing recently though is I've been taking that experience and creating and creating my own my own standalone program that is that is not with a psychotherapist and and that that's what that's what I'm I'm branding as biorhythms.
00:25:45.680 -->
00:26:16.000So so that's taking place in uh in in a few different settings it's taking place in frequently in in kind of like high-end yoga studios uh I I've done it at universities uh I I have a a program I'm gonna be doing soon where I do a rhythmic training for opera singers believe it or not and uh and and usually and that that will be a a two or three day program and at the end of that I'll I'll incorporate that.
00:26:16.000 -->
00:26:39.920So so I'm finding a way to kind of weave that in uh to some of my existing uh offerings and then standalone I'm I'm I it's it's it's an area that that I'm I'm finding myself uh very very intrigued with uh where where I'm able to take the the artistic aesthetic that I crave and then and then find the the functional healing connection.
00:26:40.400 -->
00:26:42.079Always creating opportunities.
00:26:42.799 -->
00:27:11.359Yeah yeah and and what you just said is exactly the question I was going to ask because you know a performance on stage about artistic expression primarily you know thinking about the audience experiencing that along with you but this is a different type of thing that you're creating right so you're creating this by these bio rhythms uh the this body of work but it the purpose is different than than an audience sitting in a in a in a in a performance hall or whatever so how do you think about how do you think about that?
00:27:11.599 -->
00:27:27.039Yeah you know and and this is probably the uh a time where I should or should not say this but it's true and and and and it's it's that I've never I've never I've never personally gone to one of those things where where people are doing like the crystal bowls and the gongs and stuff like that.
00:27:27.039 -->
00:27:37.839It's probably snobbish of me but but but the somebody doing that that that where it's not coming from a musical aesthetic I think would would irritate me.
00:27:37.839 -->
00:27:42.720So I don't think I don't I don't think it would relax me.
00:27:42.720 -->
00:29:57.279So I I I tend to agree with you on that yeah so when I when I do that you know let's say I just did one recently uh at a at a yoga studio and and I think of it as a as a as a 90 minute long form performance a composition okay uh and and I'm you and I'm using uh there so so there there is some of like the sound frequency things with the gongs and and and and I'll I'll I'll I'll work with like metal instruments including the hand pin and the and the bowls but but there's there's a there is a structure there and then I'm also working uh with frame drums and taking some uh African concepts where you have this duality of two and three happening at the same time you know which is you know used in Haitian music and Santiera music to to induce trance and and then taking some of the Indian tea highs and reductions and things like that where where there is always something that or a rhythm that is uh consistent and then on top of that a rhythm that is inconsistent but then comes out so so I liken it to to kind of like orally massaging their their their fish you know so so uh you know it so there is that now I I am starting to do that same program and this and this is this it gets into an area where uh it's like okay I've got this biorhythm so so where where is it gonna go you know I mean I'm I'm I'm already doing it at uh you know as as a as a total relaxation event we'll call it but uh but there is a library that asked me to do it there so uh then people are seated so so it at that point it becomes maybe 60 65 70 experiential but but a little bit of explanation I don't don't do a deep dive into into the rhythmic stuff but but I'll talk a little bit about it and I and I'm considering that maybe that could be that would be an interesting lecture uh you know for for the right kind of uh work and maybe that would be something where I would then go to psychotherapy convention on my own and just talk and talk and talk about it.
00:29:57.279 -->
00:30:05.599And and so so it it's it's it's still under development and to enter in terms of in terms of the the end usage of it.
00:30:05.839 -->
00:30:16.720Yeah yeah well that but I that's I think that's so cool they think about a single project but then you think about sort of the the different tentacles or whatever the different ways in which it can exist in the world.
00:30:16.720 -->
00:30:17.279Right.
00:30:17.680 -->
00:30:47.359And that's kind that's kind of like the the one of the broad points I'm trying to get across is is is that that's the way where I I I I was on tour in New Orleans and I heard Johnny Vadakovich playing with Professor Longhair and it was like whoa and then that that's that spawned up my interest in the in this music from different cultures and then and then I didn't really have an end game in mind other than I was passionate about it.
00:30:47.359 -->
00:31:00.160And then opportunities arose and I I wasn't really thinking about how can I capitalize on the opportunity it was more like this is cool you know what where where else could this lead?
00:31:00.400 -->
00:31:11.839Yep yep yep yeah that's awesome that's great so earlier you mentioned traveling and I'd like to unpack that a little bit um traveling is grueling and you've done a lot of touring over the years.
00:31:12.079 -->
00:32:08.720What would you tell younger musicians who are enamored by the idea of touring Wow um develop uh some good sleep hygiene I'm still working on that myself uh that you know it uh it it it kind of depends I I mean of course uh Nick with with what you and I do with with the percussion thing you know and and and maybe you less bit because you're there there would frequently be instruments supplied but when you're traveling with with instruments that's a whole nother game uh but but but have if if if that's what you're doing then have I would recommend having a travel rig you know so so so you're you're you're not traveling with your your finest your finest gear and then and then just be very realistic about what can happen.
00:32:08.720 -->
00:32:15.839Like when I go into travel mode uh we can talk about some of some of the mishaps I think that was a question later.
00:32:15.839 -->
00:33:31.759Next one but uh but yeah so so when I go into travel mode it's like it's like okay you know I I gotta be somewhere you know uh and this this is where I'm at so so uh a a plane gets delayed uh any anything that happens I I I just remain okay this this this is what it is uh I I might be at home I might be somewhere else but this is where I am now so so so just hanging loose during during that is very important and then uh you know the more that you can start to if you're if you're traveling internationally to different cultures you're not familiar with familiarize yourself with those cultures and then and then that that's the biggest takeaway for me is like I've been studying Middle Eastern music you know a lot studying with with great players and stuff like that and you know I get off the plane and I smell the culture and this is like oh wow you know so so so it it's it's like it it's grueling but but it it's the best gift for you you know if if if you if you allow yourself to absorb to absorb that gift and not get caught up in in the ultimate frustrations which you will undoubtedly encounter.
00:33:32.000 -->
00:33:57.359Yeah I like that advice yeah pop on some biorhythms and yeah there you go just go with it yeah um and and so so on touring has there been anything that happened that you you learned that lesson and you said okay I'm gonna carry this forward with me yeah so uh I I was I mean that there there have been dozens as you might as you might imagine but but but that this one is memorable.
00:33:57.599 -->
00:35:15.280So uh I think I'd mentioned earlier that I I was going to Iraq right so um I I you know if you as you might imagine uh you know i that there are all these shots you have to get and and basically papers you have to sign like like I I at this point I'd been to the Middle East several times and somebody and said Tom we'd really like for you to do this uh but I you know needless to say uh there's a little trepidation on my part of course so uh so anyway and I was gonna be I was gonna be all over Iraq so so I was gonna start in Erbil in in the north in the Kurdish area and uh so I arrive there you know I had a transfer from Frankfurt and usually when I when I arrive at these you know I I show them my you know my my paperwork all written in Arabic you know the I I had no idea what it said it could have said it could have said behead the infidel for all I know but but uh but anyway so and the guy looks at it like yeah I have no idea why you're here uh yeah as you might imagine it's not it's not really a tourist destination so usually when I go to these places there the the State Department has like these expediters you know that that you know and they they they come and meet you and and it they just all you do is follow them and they take care of everything.
00:35:15.280 -->
00:35:49.920So there nobody's there and uh you know and and there's like five people in the airport waiting room you know and I I'm you know the the white guy with the funny hat you know and all the drums it's like how hard could I be to find and uh so so my wife gets a call you know I think it was like three o'clock in the morning you know from one of the State Department people said did Tom make his uh transfer in Frankfurt because we we don't we don't see him here at the airport you know and thus you know my wondering how hard I could have been to miss.
00:35:49.920 -->
00:37:28.559So this was during that time when they weren't when they were they were sending out uh uh you know contracts you know the black water and those guys so uh so so ultimately uh somebody she you know some she gives the phone number and my my bat my phone and my battery's just got a little bit of juice and it left but I get a call from uh somebody there in Erbeal and said we're we're sending somebody uh to to get you so okay and then and then they come to the airport uh policeman there and Urbeel says uh we're closing the airport you gotta go it's like closing the airport I didn't know airports ever closed so and and then you gotta go because you know yeah it's like where do I go you said well you got to go wait outside so uh so here I am you know uh little did I know I was probably safer in Erbeal than I might have been in like some US cities at uh outside an airport but I didn't know that but but here I am standing out there and and these you know these these contractors come up you know in this hard vehicle uh throw me in the car and say do exactly what we say you know it was like what about the other 30 minutes I was standing out here with a bullseye on my head but uh so so I'd say that that was that was one of the most memorable then the the the the rock tour had offered a lot of those uh when I was in Erbil I was I was teaching at uh it was basically like a junior college and then I went to Baghdad and while I was there I played with the Baghdad Symphony or a chamber group from there.
00:37:28.559 -->
00:40:34.159I played with an ood player playing kind of Arabic jazz uh I did a lot of work with poets and then I I I found my way going to this area called Talil and it was an army base and I was there during uh Ashura do you do you guys know Ashura it's it's the event uh in Islam that separates the Sunni and Shia tribes uh so suffice to say not the time uh for like you know a white guy to be coming there with a bunch of drums and so uh so there there was a death threat you know for me you know and so they say Tom you know there there's there's there's a death threat on you we have credible evidence wow and they didn't even hear you play yet right now that was my thought you know usually that comes afterwards uh but uh um you know so so said you know you don't have to you don't have to do this but uh but you gotta know there there are these kids that you know kids like in their 20s that uh that are have walked like for five miles to hear the the American drummer right and and stuff so so I said okay let's do it and and and obviously it was fine because I'm here telling the story and then I found my way uh to Basra uh Basra is like in the far south that so that that's where it got really deep and and they connected me with this African Iraqi population that I never I never knew existed that like only play rhythms from that part of Iraq on these oh you can't see uh uh uh pull it out so you can see the audience can't see it but on on the on these drums that are that are only made there and uh and it was it was it was amazing but it was during it was during the Sashuriga so so so these these guys that you know became like my best friends uh you know they they were having to like come and bring drums one at a time uh you know so that they wouldn't be seen carrying drums right and then there was another time when I was in uh I I was in Jerusalem so so I was spending time in the West Bank and then I spent time in Israel and I and while I was in the West bank West Bank it was during Ramadan but I put together a a a drumming group you know that took place in the old city that that was a combination of of uh Palestinian and Israeli drummers guess what they got along great the the the the only the only joke was who had the best humus uh but and and that was broad that was for a performance but they there were no guest invited so that that would they showed it on television like when when I was on the plane coming back home but yeah I mean there's just so so many of those things but but it it reinforced over and over and over to me that music is far more than the aesthetic quality of is it good music or not.
00:40:34.159 -->
00:40:45.679I mean I'm I'm still it's still my life's work to to pursue that and to pursue my my venue in that but but but but it's powered by the fact that I think it's important.
00:40:45.679 -->
00:40:53.360It's not important if I miss a note you know it it's important that that I communicate something.
00:40:53.360 -->
00:41:08.719Another time in Iraq uh I did a program for some school kids and uh they were they were I was the first American that they had seen that wasn't wearing a uniform and carrying a long arm.
00:41:08.719 -->
00:41:24.800So I you know I'm carrying a darbuka and I smile it's already a victory you know it you've you've all uh it's all it the the it's already uh a diplomatic victory I've already communicated something that they're gonna go back and and tell their their parents and their and their friends about.
00:41:25.119 -->
00:41:28.400Now isn't that part of the point of sending you there?
00:41:28.719 -->
00:41:31.039Yeah it was absolutely the point.
00:41:31.039 -->
00:41:46.639So so when I would go it it was basically uh they they sent me to to to do teaching but however I feel like I learned way more than I taught and then uh and then to collaborate with indigenous musicians for the local audiences there.
00:41:46.639 -->
00:43:28.480Got it so so that that was that was the thing where uh it was very different than most of the like the rhythm road kind of thing where they're sending uh Americana music jazz bluegrass what whatever it is something that is uniquely american but but they were very intrigued with with sending somebody to these locales and then having an opportunity for them to actually take part in a in a dialogue and and that's what spa that and and so just kind of talking about how things you know go in a circular way that's what spawned this this project now that I have called the art of the duo because what when I was doing that uh it was it was always it was always not always but almost always with one other person and so and and the music because I frequently wasn't we weren't speaking the same language or very little so uh so the music became the way of communicating so when I started this art of the duo I it was it was to kind of tap into that energy and then also to be something that was uh the polar opposite of of of like of of AI you know or or or even even stuff that's very slickly programmed you know where where an audience is actually seeing a dialogue an unrehearsed uh dialogue musical communication unfolding in real time that will never happen again right thanks for listening if you like this podcast please subscribe visit arts entrepreneurship podcast dot com to learn more about our guest and how you can help support artists the arts and this podcast
