Deep End Training: Building Safer Facilities Through Aquatic Technician Development

Daniel Peters: Welcome to the AOAP's discussion from the Deep End podcast, where we share real stories and practical ideas to help you run safer, stronger aquatic programs and facilities. I'm Daniel Peters, your host, and I'm joined today by my co-host, Kirsten Barnes. AOAP is a nonprofit dedicated to improving aquatic education, recreation, and safety through training, resources, and community. Today's conversation is a special one because we're joined by two longtime aquatic leaders. ⁓ deep experience, strong industry relationships, and shared commitment to advancing our profession. We'll talk about careers in aquatics, what's changing in the field, the importance of relationships and leadership, and of course, a little of AOAP's conference talk too.
Kirsten Barnes: First, we're excited to welcome Mark Basnight. Mark was part of the initial group that took AOAP from a concept to reality, and he's been a long time AOAP volunteer and cheerleader. Since 2023, Mark has also been the deputy director where he supports conference vendors and sponsors and helps bring the wow factor to conference. Mark brings more than 40 years of aquatics experience, including over 20 years in the public and municipal sector, along with private sector leadership, as regional sales manager for Lincoln Aquatics. He's also served on multiple boards, worked with NRPA Aquatics and supported AOAP as a vendor liaison for years. Also joining us is Bob Cappell, Director of Sales for Recreational Water Products in North America at Prominent Fluid Controls, and that's a mouthful. Bob's career spans more than three decades in aquatics and water treatment, including work in design, installation, product development, and industry leadership. He's been involved in AOEP since its inception, serves on multiple committees, and is widely respected for his expertise in water disinfection and secondary treatment systems. And as those of you who joined us in Reno know, he plays a mean guitar. Together, Mark and Bob led a motivated group of professionals to put pen to paper and make the dream of an education program for facility techs a reality when they helped launch AOAP's annual Aquatic Technician School in 2023. And in case you've never met them, they're also just really fabulous people.
Bob Kappel: Thank you. I know.
Mark: Thanks for that. That was awesome.
Daniel Peters: Indeed, awesome people indeed. Mark, let's start with you. You've worked across ⁓ aquatic sales boards and now AOAP leadership. How has that wide range of experience shaped the way you see the industry today?
Mark: Well, I mean, it's been a great journey and I've basically gone full circle in just about every phase of this industry and survived many booms and plateaus and budget cuts. And honestly, that journey has kind of humbled me because early on, I believed that I knew everything about aquatics, you know, occasionally like looking over my shoulder to see what other folks were doing. And then the light bulb comes on and you discover your mentor and things about start to change. know, for me, I realized it was really simple and aquatics, it's all about relationships and the relationships you build basically build your character, you know, throughout your profession. And what changed since my early years is how fast everything moves. You know, information now is really, really quick. Back in the day, was. really slow. In fact, when I started in aquatics, there weren't computers, weren't cell phones. We didn't have all that stuff. And so nowadays, spreads really, really quickly. And you got to be aware of that. And I value the patience and the proven practices over all the hype. And what is marketed today, basically is sometimes a copied version of something that Bob and I have seen in years past. So if anything, my experience has made me less reactive and probably more proactive. I don't chase trends. I don't look at what actually works long-term. I look at what works proven. And in aquatics, proven is everything, including relationships. know, remember the job is not just about maintaining a facility or... products or training lifeguards, you're actually managing people's livelihoods. So when I finally put that all into perspective, that's philosophy I began to push forward.
Kirsten Barnes: That's awesome, Mark. You know, Bob, your path has taken you from hands-on design and installation to product development and leadership. What first pulled you into that world of water treatment? And more importantly, what's kept you passionate about it for so long?
Mark: you
Bob Kappel: That's a great question. I spend a lot of time thinking about that because how long do you have? It's a long story with a very interesting beginning because I never imagined myself in aquatics. When I moved to Wisconsin in 1994, I took a job at a ski resort golf course, Devil's Head Resort. And one of the duties I was given was taking care of the pools. And I got my CPO. I learned about pH. I learned about chlorine content. I learned about controllers and one of my first mentors there, Clyde Hagerfield was very patient with me and sat down with me alongside the pool. And he taught me everything I needed to know at that point about running those pools that I had responsibility for. And it wasn't until years later, after many iterations and working service and working in management roles and working eventually into ⁓ controller design, UV design and production. I realized that it was not a job anymore. It became, I loved it. And I was actually coining a phrase at the time. And I'm no, I'm not probably not the first, but took my sales guy hat off and I became a pool guy because I love the industry so much. And I don't know how that happened, but it just became part of me. And it's been a passion since then because I love the industry. I love seeing good things happening. I love seeing people be successful. I love helping people be successful, but also bringing people product products and techniques and information that's useful to them so they can run a better facility and pass on. to making a great environment for swimmers, for patrons, or whatever type of water that you're getting into. it's really been an evolution. And it's nothing that I really knew that was happening at the time. It just became just part of me. And I love water treatment. It's one of my favorite things to talk about. Just ask anybody to party when their eyes glaze over and they're done talking to me about pH. It's ⁓ quite an adventure. So I love it.
Daniel Peters: That's awesome. Peace out.
Bob Kappel: And you know, you asked a question there too, and I'm sorry, I kind of went off on a long ramble there, but what keeps me passionate is that I was given some opportunities by some people that took me under their wing. And Mark made a mention of the term mentor and threw up my years in the industry. I've been very, very lucky to have some great mentors in my life, like Kent Williams and Wolfram Hartwig and John Whitmore. Bob Bradley, some of these names go way, way back. Frank Strand with the old Strand Troll products. And I feel like it's my job to pay that forward, to be able to help people getting into the industry and maybe even some veterans, giving them some insights that I've gained over the years. And ⁓ where I am right now is that I'm coming towards the end of my career. It's not the end, but ⁓ getting to that age where retirement is part of my plan. And I want to make sure that I leave my information behind and not take it with me. So it's really important for me right now to teach others everything that I can possibly share with them. That's
Kirsten Barnes: And I think Bob, you have such a unique approach. For those of you who have ever taken a CPO, AFO, AquaTech class, it's very technical, the science piece of it. And Bob, you just have such a great way of bringing it down to a basic level so people have an entry point and can really start to learn. And I don't think that's something that everybody can do.
Bob Kappel: Thank you. appreciate that because one of the things that's real easy for us professionals to get lost in the world of acronyms and, that we think are really simple and really basic are really hard to grasp for somebody that's not. And so it's really important to remember where you are, what point you are in your career and making sure that you make it so that people can understand, because I could get up there and deep dive into a lot of things when I'm teaching a class. But when I see those eyes glaze over, I know that after real back and be able to take it down to bite size pieces and small amounts that's they're digestible for people and they can better understand because some of the topics are pretty complex and pretty scientific.
Mark: .
Daniel Peters: Sounds like you're setting yourself up to kind of give back to what you've been given at the start of your career. which is all we can do.
Bob Kappel: I have to. How could I not? The people are generous with their time and so I want to be the same with mine.
Daniel Peters: when you moved from the field into a broader industry leadership role, what surprised the most about the way Aquatic operates on the business and relationships side? You touched on relationships already, What surprised you the most there?
Mark: It was very humbling for me to be an operator and be coming to the sales side. And what I quickly learned was I had a lot to learn. Aquatics again, it's a relationship industry. And I quickly learned it's not, you know, what you know, it's who you know. And, you know, Bob touched on that. The mentor part of our industry is huge. And I, as well as Bob, had some amazing mentors that took me under their wing as well and, you know, helped shaped my career. And, you know, in the beginning, you're more hands on earlier in your career, you focus on customer wants and customer needs and water quality, you know, kind of all the intangible pieces, but stepping into a broader leadership role, you start to see and trust that, you know, your trust is the real currency. mean, people need to trust you in the industry. if they don't trust you, you're not going to go very far. And the strongest businesses aren't just the ones with the best inventory or the best prices. They're the ones that are most consistent with relationships. And, you know, those are the people that are relying on you day in and day out on your everyday business, you know, and you got to be consistent with that. And I was also struck about how smaller industry really is. It's not that big of industry, but it feels bigger when you're in it day to day. Once you zoom out and realize reputations travel extremely fast, ⁓ you become more of a focus and especially when things go wrong, you know? You can't be there just when things are right. You have to be there for people when things go wrong just as well. And I didn't, early on I didn't appreciate how loyal our industry is. You know, people aren't just buying safety equipment or systems. They're investing time and passion and identity into what they're building as well. You know, we helped shape that, and I didn't realize and respect the emotional connection, but that's a huge part of what drives decisions on people and how they run their aquatics facilities. ⁓ So the shift for me was understanding that the successes in the quality isn't just about technical expertise. ⁓ It's about your credibility and your consistency and how well you manage your relationships over the long haul.
Kirsten Barnes: And if you've ever gone to an event with Mark, you know he has relationships with everybody. He knows everyone, you guys. Well, Bob, you've seen the evolution of water treatment and technologies over the years. What changes do you think have made the biggest difference for operators and facility owners?
Mark: I'm sorry.
Bob Kappel: That's a great question, Kirsten. And I think for me, it's the advancement of science and the application of science in the industry. A lot of water treatment in the past, going back a long time now, has been... knowledge, it's been passed along and without the science behind it. Now there was science at the time, but the science was not being explained. So as with anything, I think it's really important for us when we do take an action ⁓ in a pool, whether it be adding chemicals, we add a piece of ⁓ ⁓ there's science that backs that up and ⁓ that's real. Because I can tell you there's a lot of folks out there that are rehashing old technologies that were here in the 80s and the 90s. And they weren't viable then and they're not viable now, but everybody forgot about them or the people that were involved with that have since moved on. And now it's coming back around again. And it's still not scientific. It's just strap a magnet to a pipe using a piece of Velcro and all of a sudden all the water molecules are aligned perfectly. And it doesn't sound right because it's not. And so I think one of the biggest technologies to come along has been UV for disinfection and chloramine control for indoor facilities, the ability to monitor airborne contamination, and then also remote control of products, being able to view your pool from a remote location, basically anywhere you are, as long as you have a smart device with you. ⁓ think those are really the biggest improvements. ⁓ that have been made with technology that are useful in the industry. When you boil it down though, we're still just using chlorine and making sure the pH and the alkalinity is right. And it's been the same since forever. there's advancements and there's not. And so I think you really need to have your feet in both old school, regular operation, all the basics. And then the fancy technology helps you fine tune it and make a better environment. But at its very core, it's still just the nuts and bolts of water chemistry. And that's what you have to have your best understanding. There's no magic there. It's just understanding and knowledge.
Daniel Peters: of you have spent a lot of time building trust across the industry. What does such a strong professional relationship look like in aquatics and what does it matter so much? Start with you Mark.
Mark: The must is golden. You know, you gotta follow through on what you promise and what you say. It's a must. If you don't, you're gonna lose respect in the industry and respect is basically your character. and Bob jump in at any time, but ⁓ if you its decision, stand behind it, good, bad, or otherwise, admit when you're wrong. You know, ⁓ I'm not right, you know, ⁓ Bob's not right. And, you know, I'll admit when I'm wrong, but you know, if I make a decision, I'm going to stand behind it and I don't make excuses for my decisions, but you got to be part of the solution, not part of the problem. ⁓ And the thing you know, don't never... like bash or blame your competitors or their equipment or whatever the case may be. To me, that's not good business. It's not a good practice because everybody's out there trying to make a buck. All their stuff works. Go with what's proven, go with what you believe in and respect your passion. And always try to leave a footprint for others to follow. That's my motto. Always leave a footprint for others to follow.
Bob Kappel: I think Marky hit on some gold there because It's really hard for me to separate business from my personal relationships because I treat them all the same. I don't look at business as being, well, I did that. It's just, it's only business. Don't worry about it. And you use it almost as an excuse to treat somebody poorly that's moved. It's not personal. It's just business. Well, I don't, for me, I think you go through life. got one pass through here and What you leave behind is memories of who you are with other people. And Mark brought up the word trust. Look, I look at all relationships, not just the important ones, but also minor ones you may have in life as marriages. And marriage is hard. And anybody that's been married can attest to that, that it's not always, it's great, it's amazing. And however there are difficult times and you have to have enough trust and faith and honesty. with any relationship so that you can weather the inevitable. And that inevitable is always going to be somebody's going to let you down in some way, whether big or small. But if your relationship is strong, you can weather that incident and get through it because you know, on the backside of it, you do have that faith, that love, trust in each other, and you carry on. And that's what makes a solid relationship, whether it be business or just interpersonal relationships. It's critical that you build that up and you have that strength in relationship to whether those storms that will come. Because as a manufacturer, we're going to make a mistake. We're going to mess up. We're going to do something that doesn't make a customer happy. However, we know that we're dedicated to that customer and we're going to make it right in the end. And as long as the intentions are always good, there's a way to make things right again. The other side of that is you may run across people whose intentions aren't always good, aren't always wholesome and seek to take advantage of you. And that's when it's the way I always say, as long as you know who you're dealing with, you can kind of figure out any route you need to take in those cases. So that's kind of my advice on the relationship side of things.
Daniel Peters: Yeah, I think it's very important to have those foundations built up so that when things happen, you have those resources to go to.
Bob Kappel: Exactly. It's going to happen. mean, it's inevitable.
Daniel Peters: ⁓ We'll talk about a little bit of a AUAP and leadership. Mark, you've been connected to AUAP for years, including serving as a vendor liaison. What have you learned about AUAP's role in bringing the industry together?
Mark: Well, you're right. I've spent a lot of years with the OAP actually since day one. I have not missed a conference and been part of it and ⁓ it's in my blood. And that experience through all these years has really helped define my role as the deputy director. And what I've learned is that the leadership isn't about being the loudest voice in the room. It's about, you know, being the steady one. You you're dealing with a wide range of perspectives and personality. and everyone comes in with different priorities. But my role has become less about pushing an agenda and more about finding alignment with our board, our attendees, and especially our vendors. You know, one of my first observations that I learned was that credibility is earned through time. And people watch what you do a lot more than what you say, so you gotta be careful. And if you show up, follow through and stay fair, even when it's not convenient. you start to build that kind of trust that actually moves things forward and people will follow, you know? So as far as bringing the industry together, really comes down to is creating a common ground. Like in aquatics, it's not hard to find that if you're focused on the big things like, you know, water quality and safety and education and professionalism. You know, when you keep the conversation centered there, progress eventually develops. So I've also learned the value of listening. And, you know, that was probably one of the toughest things for me, because I always feel like I have something to say, but, you know, I've learned the value of listening and some of the best ideas don't come from the top. come from professionals in the field. ⁓ deal with the everyday challenges that, you know, we experience and given those voices in a place that the tables become a big part of strengthening my knowledge and the industry as a whole. And maybe it probably is important, you know, I've seen that in today's progress. It doesn't happen overnight, it's built through relationships and patients and willingness to keep showing up day after day after day. And if I've bring people together at all, it's really been about being consistent and staying focused because the long term matters. ⁓ You know, and making sure that everyone feels like they have a stake in where the industry is heading. I think that's really important. You know, it's just not my word. It's not our board's word. It's not Bob's word. Everybody has a word on how we move forward and all their voices are really important. And I want to hear every single one of them because all of them could be great ideas.
Kirsten Barnes: That's awesome, Mark. There's so many people and so many young professionals right now in the industry that have great ideas. know, Bob, you've served on boards and instructor groups and committees and task forces. What keeps you motivated to stay involved beyond the scope of your day-to-day work?
Bob Kappel: I think that echoes back to something I said earlier, and it's just my love for the industry and to see the industry move forward be better for everybody. Just be a better place for employees, be a better place for patrons. And if there's in some small way that I can help. foster that through anything ⁓ I'm in because and I don't know when it happened again. I don't know how it happened because again When I was a teenager and I was going to university, I had no idea I was going to be a become an aquatics professional and do the water quality thing. And then it just happened. But the love for the industry, the passion is what gets me up and wanting to do more to help to share what I've learned over the years and which has come with blood, sweat and tears. Mark can attest to this is that there's days here in the trenches and you're just wondering, will this day ever end? And you're hoping it does, but you can't put that much energy into a system without getting something back out. And I think that's where we are right now. It's just one needing to keep feeding the industry with as much good things as we possibly can. And it's going to help everybody be better. And I think of about the days when I have five kids and when we used to take my kids swimming when they were little, I was obviously a critic on the water that they were getting into. And I want everybody's kids to have that experience where I look, I always say that the experience in a swimming pool, it should be a transparent experience. And the pun is intended because if you notice the water or if you notice the error, then something's wrong because you shouldn't notice the water. You should just be focused on having fun. So if there's something I can do to help make that experience great for kids, great for families, great for moms and dads. whoever may be getting into the water. That's what drives me. That's what my engine every day and gets me up. ⁓
Daniel Peters: For both of you, ⁓ does leadership look like in aquatics when the goal is not just selling a product or running a facility, but improving the whole profession?
Mark: Well, I'd start by saying, leave aquatics better than you found it. If you're in this industry to become rich, start looking for another profession. Again, a footprint. you as an operator, you have to set standards, not only for yourself, but for your staff. that's really important. If you don't have standards for others to follow, guess what? Things are going to fall apart, and they're going to catch up to you really quickly. ⁓ And as Bob has noted on numerous times, share your knowledge. you know something and somebody that doesn't know it, share that knowledge. It's so important to share knowledge in our industry. ⁓ advocate our profession. Not everybody advocates for a profession. I think that is so important. because I believe, and you might hear this later on down the road, but I believe that lifeguards need higher pay. ⁓ they a fantastic job and they don't get recognized ⁓ as the professionals they are, and these operators, ⁓ they deserve to get as pay as they can possibly get. ⁓ And probably the last thing leave it with is collaboration. And that's what I'm so proud about AOAP is they've done a great job at collaboration. And that's something that ⁓ I haven't brought. work ethic until I joined AIP and they've taught me about collaboration.
Bob Kappel: great points mark. ⁓ to expand on that a little bit, one of the things that I do when I teach a class is I create what I call parking lot. So ⁓ get the whiteboard out, I get a chalkboard out. That's old fashioned term, right? ⁓ a dry erase board, whatever it may be. And I asked the audience, said, What is it today that you want to learn? What's what keeps you up at night? What is the problem that's making your hair go gray. And that's the approach that I take with with selling. It is basically solution selling and I don't even care about the product. I want to make sure that the people they have a need, they have a problem and I'm going to provide them either with knowledge or equipment that's going to help make their day easier. And even sometimes it means not selling anything because They say, well, I want to buy XYZ. And I said, well, I appreciate that, but XYZ is not right for you. And here's why. And I won't sell it to them. So it's really wanting the best for others. And it's helping people come to a solution that'll make their life and their daily workday easier. And that's my approach.
Kirsten Barnes: And I know that you were talking about that from a selling equipment standpoint, but I hope everybody listening in the field feels that way when someone comes to their desk or into their office and says, I want to know about programs, swim team, water, whatever that is. I hope that they take that solution mindset because that's what really makes the difference for people and builds those relationships that you both talked about.
Bob Kappel: Kirsten, right, it's just meeting people where they are and finding out what their headaches are. we to be cognizant of the fact that each one of us has a toolkit. ⁓ And have knowledge. ⁓ And all that knowledge will help any given situation. But there may be that one nugget in there that ⁓ yes, have exactly what you need. And you the people
Kirsten Barnes: Yeah.
Bob Kappel: with the issue might not even know that they have an issue or they know what they need to do to solve the issue, obviously, because they're looking for help. So it's our job as professionals to be able to take that question, that concern, that problem, and help them come to a successful resolution. Absolutely.
Kirsten Barnes: Absolutely. I love it. Well, so to both of you, what advice would you give to someone who's early in their career who really wants to build a long term future in aquatics?
Mark: Well, the first thing you do is need to ask yourself, do you have the passion that it takes? Because if you didn't have passion in this industry, you are not going to survive. Again, you're not here to make a million dollars. You have to have the passion in this industry. And like Bob said, I don't know how I fell into aquatics. It was back in my early days at Chico State working with my good buddy, Jim Wheeler, that I became a lifeguard to. be self-sufficient and next thing I know, I wanted to be a college coach and next thing I know, I'm running aquatic facilities. And I'm like, you gotta be kidding me. I didn't see that career path coming. But you know, to also answer your question, I think people need to attend conferences and workshops and be on local and state and national boards. You you need to get involved, And like I mentioned before, you gotta have a mentor and you gotta become a mentor, I think something that is really important too is don't stagnate. The last thing you can do is stagnate your operations and your facilities because from my experience, operations that teach and train exclusively internally have the biggest issues. And also, you don't have to be a pool guard. Explore your options. You could be a beach guard, a water park guard, or a river, pond, pool, it doesn't matter. I didn't start off in aquatics, guarding pools and operating pools. I was out of river. That was my first life-jar job. So, explore what your options are if you want to get into it because there's lots to do.
Bob Kappel: The best I can do is ⁓ just amplify a few that Mark did say. I really that the first thing is find a mentor. Find somebody ⁓ you're comfortable with ⁓ and pick their as much as you possibly If not just find two or three from different... places in the industry. Also, with regards to that, don't forget the history, understand that we all stand on the shoulders of giants. I mean, there is the first people in the industry back in the 40s and 50s. And we have to understand what they were dealing with and understanding and remembering some of the people that have come before us and appreciating the work that they put in was I think it's critically important not knowing our history. We're going to repeat our mistakes if we don't know our history. Always learn. Mark said, always, always be hungry for knowledge. One of the things that when I was coming up, I was very fortunate to have back when I worked for Newman pools was a boss that would let me go anywhere to go to attend a conference and take classes. There was no limit, which I know back then it was different than it is now. Cause now, and especially for agencies, it's really hard. But there's online stuff you can do these days. And so never stop learning. What frustrates me is when people say that, why I'm an AFO or I'm a CPO, as if that's some kind of college degree. Well, maybe, but tell me the difference between somebody with a fresh college degree and somebody who's been in the industry for 20 years, plus has the college degree, who's going to be better at doing their job? I would say the person with the wisdom and the experience of the 20 years in the field. So always learn, always look for learning opportunities, go to conference, take classes, and along with that, meet people. Mark said it again, is that network, network, network, network. The more people you can meet, the more mentors you're going to find, the more knowledge and questions you're going to be able to ask and learn from. And it's just those, I think those three things, just finding good mentorship, always be hungry to learn, and also meet people, network. Those three things will really pay off in the long run if you're dedicated to the industry. And then I think lastly, don't, whatever your role is, be prepared to take that hat off and just be a pool person. Just be an aquatics professional. You don't have to be the director of this or the manager of that. Just love the industry and take it as a whole because there's many aspects to the industry. And you need to know about those two as well because my specialty is not lifeguarding. It's in the technical side of things. However, I do know quite a bit about lifeguarding because of the people that I've met, the people I've talked to and the lifeguard manager. So I've learned through them. So again, this is where the networking is critical.
Daniel Peters: I think you said a big where you have to kind of take off your hat and or have a lot of hats in the industry. That's something we've heard from a lot of our other guests as well. But now we have to talk about AUAP's Aquatic Technical School. Let's start at the beginning. what problems were seeing in industry that made you say we need something like a tech school? Why did you identify hands-on training as the missing piece?
Bob Kappel: I can tell you the moment that the tech school idea came together, I was having breakfast with a member of the CMAC at a not AOAP conference. It was a different conference. And we're sitting there lamenting over the fact that we were noticing a diminishment of the technical skills of people coming into the industry. I think I can read into this a little bit is that it's just a way of our society right now is that there are less people getting into trades these days than ever before. I think people aren't used to repairing their own stuff at home that they're used to a service person to come in and take care of it. And so people are less hands on, ⁓ less understanding and I'm just going to use this as a dumb example, but how to use a screwdriver. But moving that up to how to use a digital multimeter. How do you learn how to use that? So we're trying to encourage good people to come in as service techs through education, because we've seen one, a diminishment in people's natural skills are bringing into these roles. So we want to help up the skill level of people that are getting into these roles. And then the people that do have the roles as technicians. We want them to be better at what they do, become more marketable, able to command better salaries, just able to move up the ladder into maybe management roles or more supervisory roles. ⁓ So again, it's for the betterment of the industry, but it's always over just a breakfast over an omelet or some scrambled eggs or bacon, I forget what it was, but we both that there is some issues with. People just didn't seem to have the technical skill levels coming in at the entry side of things as they did in the past.
Mark: ⁓ how that born too is so I was sitting down, it might've been with breakfast with Bob and he goes, I got an idea. And I'm like, I'm listening. ⁓ And he well, you know, I'm seeing a gap that keeps repeating itself ⁓ over and and over as this industry grows. And I'm like, I'm listening. And so we started talking about implementing, you know, tech school into AOAP. I'm like, Bob, you are a genius. This is awesome. And, you know, and that's kind of what really drove the need for a stronger education technology, you know. And when I was out visiting different facilities back in my sales days, you know, I had always pitched AOAP to all these operators and all the techs are like, I want to go, but there's no tracks there for. and I'm like, ⁓ we gotta get tracks for technicians. But instead we took it one step further, you know, and added on the tech school. ⁓ And this, what this did was just not only provide more information and better training to these guys, but it was something that provided them some hands-on training that made them better technicians that they could bring back. ⁓ So many of the technicians that I dealt with back in the day, the old handshake guys that learned from Emmanuel, you know, I've been doing it this way for 30 years and they're going to be doing it this way for 30 years more. Maybe so, but that doesn't mean that it's right or that is wrong. But you know, there's so much more information out there that they really needed to learn and understand because a a technician doesn't just follow steps. ⁓ You know, they need to understand why they're doing something and then that allows them to be a better technician. So at the end of the day, a better technician doesn't just monitor water. They raise the standard for the entire industry. And that was the goal that Bob and I wanted to pursue is we want to make his part of the profession better than it was.
Bob Kappel: And to dovetail into that, one of the things that we've seen with a lot of technicians is they become just parts replacers rather than being able to diagnose what the issue is and fixing that specific thing. They just start throwing parts at a problem until they was like throwing darts at a dart board with the blindfold on. It may, you may solve it. You may not. I've seen situations with equipment where people have thrown thousands of dollars at a problem and it turned out it wasn't what they thought it was at all. And so they just wasted all that time, all that money and wound up fixing something that didn't really require much at all, but they were way off on the wrong tangent because they weren't diagnosing the issue. So we're hoping to improve the industry by bringing diagnostic skills to people, hands-on experiences so that they take that, just better at their job and better for the industry. And it's good for everybody. There's no downside to it. So we're pretty excited about the school and what it brings to the industry. And we want to elevate the industry a more professional level.
Daniel Peters: All right, can you share a moment or example where you saw the bulb go off for a participant during a hands-on portion of the tech school?
Bob Kappel: So I think it all the time. And if you're watching, especially when you're presenting and you're watching ⁓ the of your people, all of a sudden you'll see somebody that'll start, you'll see them kind of roll their head back and they'll close their eyes and then they'll start to go get a smile on their face and they'll start nodding with you. And at that moment, you know that you've made a connection ⁓ and the light bulb moment that we're talking about because So many times we can get up there and we can talk about something, but we don't know if we're talking about something that's meaningful to people. And so one of the important things, and that's why we really drove to hands-on is to have that interaction where we can discover and help lead people along. And we can actually cultivate and grow those light bulb moments rather than just waiting them to randomly happen. So we're really In tune, we try to stay focused on the feedback that we're getting from our folks that are in attendance. And then we can kind of craft if a lot of our speakers are very, very good and they can see how to move the conversation in order to get more light bulbs to go on than not. And so that's, that's really important that we have those types of speakers. ⁓ but yeah, it's, it happens a lot. It's almost every session, every year. that you, it's just not once in a while. And if you're holding a good class, you'll see that response a lot.
Mark: I agree with you, Bob. And I think one of the best parts for me is when you preach the tech school and how much they're going to enjoy it and they attend and they come up to you and they go, gee, you're right. You're absolutely right. This is exactly what I thought it was going to be. And 10 times more. And thank you so much for introducing this to me. I really appreciate it. And by the way, I won't have to start calling you for every problem now because I have a resource. Thank you very much for that.
Kirsten Barnes: ⁓ Bob, talked about cultivating and growing, ⁓ and think we hear a lot about experienced technicians who are retiring and newer professionals are learning on the job, maybe on their own without that resource to call. So how does tech school help bridge that gap and accelerate readiness for attendees?
Bob Kappel: Wow, that's a big question. I think of the things we're trying to do with tech school is to bring those. people with that vast, vast experience to come in. this year we boasted our instructor, organizer group into some ⁓ really powerful, well-known and well-versed people in the industry. And we're bringing
Mark: All stars.
Bob Kappel: ⁓ really it's an all star. Yeah, Mark. That's a great way to put it. It's an all star crew for organizing the people that are behind the scenes, organizing the tech schools. And we're hand picking the people that are not only really good at what they do, but they're up and comers and maybe even some new people. Cause we're always on the lookout for new talent. And so we have the old, sage guys behind the scenes here. who aren't necessarily gonna get up in front anymore, but it's our job to help facilitate and help mentor the people that are speaking. And so that's how we do that. So we're almost crafting, cultivating, growing a new generation of leaders is on top of what we're doing besides the people that are coming in to learn from school, we're also help develop that next generation of leaders through the people who are speaking. And those are the people that I hope someday are going to take the reins from us and continue this tradition on and keep just keep passing it on generation to generation.
Daniel Peters: Tech school isn't just about the equipment and the systems. What are some of the bigger picture skills or mindsets you hope attendees walk away with with tech school?
Mark: say confidence and a resume of confidence or contacts you know or just have a whole resume of contacts. ⁓ What's really good is your hand on knowledge is from the vendors themselves who actually manufacture and build the equipment. They know that equipment inside and out as much as I'd like to say I know or Bob knows it these guys work with it every single day so you're getting What's really is ⁓ your hand on ⁓ is the vendors themselves who actually manufacture and build the equipment. They know that equipment inside out as much as like to say I know or Bob knows it these guys work with it every single day so you're accurate and up-to-date information on the latest equipment that's in the industry. And I think the last one I have to say is you get friends for life. You you're going to walk away having friends for life once you participate in that. accurate and up-to-date information on the latest equipment that's in the industry. And I think the last one I have to say is you get friends for life. You you're going to walk away having friends for life once you participate in that.
Bob Kappel: Yeah. I think you, you again, Mark, you're hitting on some great stuff that I can only amplify. So going to start going first for some of these questions. ⁓
Mark: you Ha ⁓
Bob Kappel: you I think one of the things in boy, there's so much ⁓ to unpack there. ⁓ One of the things that I is really important us to realize is that manufacturers are not the evil empire that people think they are. There, there's a mindset that exists out there ⁓ that somehow people from a company are out to the only, only job is for them to take advantage of you sell a piece of equipment that you don't need or doesn't work and you pay a lot of money for, and they never back it up. But I think by having manufacturers representatives there, get to show everybody we're people too. You know, we're just human beings. We're not some kind of ogres from some different planet. And that Mark's right. I mean, who knows the equipment better than the people that designed it. Right? mean, and the equipment in the aquatics world is tested and out for years before it even hits the market. And not only that, it's certified six ways to Sunday. If anybody thinks that going through NSF or UL testing is a, is a cake walk off. Sometimes it takes over a year for it to go through testing any given piece of equipment and hundreds of thousands of dollars later for the testing protocols and the procedures. So I think it's really important for people to realize that we're a great resource. Manufacturers are a great resource. So that's one minor thing. The other thing that I want people to come out of class is realizing that they don't know a lot. I want them to learn more, but I also want them to leave hungry like, gosh, I'm only scratching the surface of this topic. And need I need to get a book open. I need to learn more. need to find a mentor. need to have somebody explain that more about this to me. ⁓ So I making people hungry more knowledge is really an important part of aspect of the tech school too, because ⁓ quite frankly, some of these two hour sessions, we could actually teach for two days and still not help hit all the things that we need to hit with any given subject. So I really want people to understand that getting a certificate in any school, any class, anything is just a start for your knowledge base. And that's a one-on-one level class. Keep going, keep learning more. Make friends with manufacturers. So I think just to recap, the biggest thing is just making sure that we leave people realizing that there's so much more to understand about any given topic and then leaving them with the hunger to go find that. Maybe someday we'll have tech level two, three, four, five. I don't know. We'll see.
Mark: You know, and really quick, Bob, just to follow up on that. You know, a lot of the equipment out there is for Dodge Chevy. They all do the same thing. You know, one of the good things about having the speakers that we bring in there is they are going to be a resource for you. They are going to answer the phone and pick up the phone when you call. And from a buyer standpoint, you know, remember it.
Kirsten Barnes: Thank
Mark: It's for Dodge Chevy. All equipment pretty much does the same thing, but the people that stand behind the equipment that they sell and answer the phone when you call and give you the information that you need and get out there and service the equipment that you need, those are the people that you need to be dealing with. You know, everybody can sell you equipment, but do they service and stand behind it? That's what you got to focus on when you're buying something because you're spending a lot of money on pool equipment. Remember, pools are like boats, you know? Break out another thousand because that's exactly what you're doing when you own a pool.
Kirsten Barnes: There's Mark coming in clutch with the relationship conversation again. Okay, y'all, If someone's on the fence about attending.
Mark: Yeah.
Daniel Peters: you
Bob Kappel: That's right.
Mark: There you go.
Kirsten Barnes: How would you explain to them the impact that tech school can have both on their job and also on the safety and success of their entire facility?
Bob Kappel: I think ⁓ you will never come away without learning something. And the I look at a lot of these classes, sometimes they can be. life-changing. They can be completely altering to the way you think, but you won't know until you go. And the other side of that, how bad can it be? I mean, if you come away with a nugget or two that helps you do your job better or perform better, that's gold right there. That's pure gold that you came away with one idea. And I can't tell you how many conferences I've been to. I sat through a session I could probably teach, but They say one thing and all of a sudden it spurs a cascade of ideas in my head and my mind just starts racing down these roads and all of sudden things are clicking that I didn't think about before. So this is where it comes in is you have to put energy into the system to get something out. So if you're expecting to be a professional and you're expecting to perform at a very high level on your job and have, you know, get paid accordingly, And who doesn't want to get paid more? Well, then you got to continuously up your game and getting those little pieces of knowledge and networking. come to class, you're going to get all those things. you're going to learn things you never knew before. You're going to meet people that are just amazing and that you want to stay friends with. You're going to meet manufacturers that you want to stay in contact with going to conference. You're going to meet hundreds of people. I mean, if you put yourself out there, You could also attend and just go back to your hotel room and, you know, play video games or something too. But again, you're going to get out what you put in. And so if you want a lot out, then you got to put a lot into the system because that's the way the universe works.
Mark: what I've seen the years is that there's a gap between the average tech and a great tech. And it comes down to training. It really does. Because you don't want to learn just in the field. You ⁓ want to learn in classroom as well. And you don't have to learn through trial and error. And it could save you thousands of dollars down the road on unnecessary callbacks and safety issues ⁓ by just gaining some information. And customers will trust you more and staff will rely and trust you more. And this opens the door to better jobs and responsibilities down the road. And at the end of the day, it's just not about going to school. It's about deciding how good you want to do your job. And you know, that's what we strive to do. how can we teach you to do your job better and more efficiently?
Daniel Peters: I don't know about you, Kirsten, but I'm ready to sign up for ⁓ Tech School right now.
Kirsten Barnes: I'm in.
Mark: Alright.
Bob Kappel: I know some people that can get you in there, Daniel, so.
Mark: Yeah, we knew a guy.
Daniel Peters: Couple, couple guys. All right, so we can't have the two of you guys on the show and not talk about the AOAP conference. We're going back to Reno in 2027, and there's a lot of excitement around that. What makes Reno such a memorial setting for our community?
Bob Kappel: Here we go again. Good for you. ⁓ Grand is a great location and I love personally ⁓ it keeps everybody in one place. A lot of people always for distractions, but for me, I'm coming to conference to meet people at the conference, not to be distracted. And so this is why some of the places like Vegas can be a little bit daunting to hold a conference for because there's so many competing things for people's attention. At Reno, we're in one location. Everything you could possibly want is right there. The great venue, the great hotel rooms, great entertainment, you know, as far as what's going to be put on by AOAP. They have all the food choices you could ever want right on site and the prices are very, very reasonable. And so I think beyond that, networking with thousands of other people in the schools and the sessions you can go to. think Reno is probably one of my favorite locations for all those reasons.
Mark: You know, I've always said, it doesn't really matter where we go. We could go to Tijuana or we could go to Palm Springs or Aspen, Colorado. It's not about the location. It's about the people that you meet and the people that you see and establishing all those relationships. And, you know, I get to see my friends all over again. The one thing that I did remember most about our last trip to Reno was think five or six days went by and I had never went outside to see the sunshine, you know, ⁓ because everything you need, everything you want is right there. they do, like Bob said, they have great food, great venues. It's a great place to network ⁓ we hope to see you there.
Kirsten Barnes: the same thing happened to me. I realized all of a sudden I had never actually left the resort. It was just so self-contained. It was awesome. Mark, I thought you were going to tell me a favorite memory of yours from Reno was the Wednesday night social. So to clue people in who were not with us in Reno last time, they had this great nightclub, which is unfortunately no longer there.
Mark: Yeah.
Kirsten Barnes: ⁓ But it had a pool in it, which we did not swim in and we kept life guarded the entire time. Thank you. But we also had a fantastic 70s band. And Mark, I think you were the one who had Bob put on a little performance that quite possibly may never be topped at an aquatic conference ever, ever again. For listeners who weren't there, how would you describe that moment when Bob got up on stage and revealed?
Mark: Thanks.
Kirsten Barnes: that he could just shred it.
Mark: Well, people who know me and have been around me long enough, they always know that I look for ⁓ is it, Bob?
Bob Kappel: The wow factor.
Kirsten Barnes: The wow factor, yes.
Mark: A wow factor. And when we first walked into that venue, Bob and I looked at each other and when we went, wow, we could do something really special here. So as we started building on all these great ideas about the evening, the night, the sponsors and everything else, something popped into my brain. Back when we were in Florida, we had a luau and I was going to... try to get my old employer at the time, Mr. Charlie Luker up on the stage to do a hula dance with all the hula dancers that we had at the event. And I thought it was gonna be a good roast for Charlie because he was a sponsor and everybody knew him and it would be great to see him up there doing his little shake and move and everything else. Well, that backfired and I was the one that had to And for years I would go to conferences and people have it on their cell phone showing me. And I'm like, ⁓ my God, I hope this doesn't get out. They're like, late. So the idea popped in my head, hey, let's do this again, but I'm going to use Bob and I'm going to trick the whole audience. And only Bob and I are going to know this process. So what had happened is I knew that Bob had a background in playing in bands. So when we hired the band. We asked them if Bob could come up and play with them. And they said, sure. So we set the stage for me getting up on stage and thanking all the sponsors and everything else. And I asked the group, said, hey, how many people would like to see Bob Kippel come up here and sing? And the whole audience went, woo, yeah, that'd be great. And you could hear Bob in the background, I can't sing. And then we asked them, ⁓ how many people would like to hear Bob play guitar? Woo. Bob goes, I can't play guitar. Well, Bob, you're going to play guitar. So Bob reluctantly walks over and picks up a guitar and a playing around, puts it on backwards. was hilarious. I was crying when I was on the stage. Well, then all of sudden one, two, three, four, and they go into this whole set. think it was 25, six to four by Chicago and the whole place erupted. And from that point on to the rest of night, it was electric. And Bob, you were great. You were fantastic. Better than I even thought you would be. So congratulations, my friend.
Bob Kappel: Thank you.
Daniel Peters: Yeah, it was a great moment. honestly didn't think that I thought you were just setting them up as well as someone out there. So it was cool to see that. And it definitely brought the house down for sure. Like you said, set the tone for the rest of the night. It did.
Mark: Okay.
Bob Kappel: Mark's plan worked. Exactly.
Mark: So who knows, maybe next year there will all be another plan just like that. You never know because we're always looking for the wow factor.
Bob Kappel: You need to, you need to trademark that phrase.
Daniel Peters: Okay. You really do. He hasn't already. All right. So more broadly, what do in-person conferences make possible that a lot of people don't always get from the emails, the webinars, or the phone calls?
Mark: Yeah.
Bob Kappel: I know. Say the word Mark, it starts with our relationships.
Mark: Relationships, networking, networking, networking. There's nothing better than hands-on for sure. Like most people, ⁓ they on, they start watching things and they fade really quickly. when you're hands-on, ⁓ everything is constant motion, constant motion. There's so many things to do, so many people to meet, so many different ⁓ things going at one time. It's just... ⁓ You can't beat it. And we learned kind of that process through the COVID days when we tried have our conference online. just, it's just not the same. I'm a hugger person. I love to people. I can't hug people when I, you know, hear Bob, you know, just can't do it. And, ⁓ you know, that's what AOAP is about. know, seeing your family, seeing your friends, seeing your people that you haven't seen for a long time.
Bob Kappel: Yeah, mean, humans to me desire connection. And I don't think there's a better place than AOAP to do that. Because we're all there for the same reason or most of us are, is to build that connection, have that, build those relationships, build that rapport. You make friends for life. Some of these folks, they're friends. mean, almost family to a point because You know each other so well and you've spent so much time together over the years. And I think renewing that friendship, renewing that relationship in person is so invaluable. It's so different than just calling somebody up on the telephone, seeing that person again. You haven't seen him in 365 days or whatever it may be, 350 days and seeing that person in the flesh, looking them in the eye and just sitting down with them and having a conversation about something that has nothing to do with pools is just so refreshing, so amazing. So I think it's that human connection that makes the in-person so much more valuable.
Kirsten Barnes: Yeah, the education sessions are fabulous, but those hallway conversations, hanging out, I mean, that's immeasurable.
Bob Kappel: always. And you know, you bring a good point there, Kirsten, because a lot of times, you know, when we have upper management in my area, looking at the cost of coming to a conference and sending booths, and multiple people in the booth and plane travel and rental cars and meals and hotel costs and whatnot, it's a lot of money. And so they try to force metrics on to Well, how many things did you sell? And it's the intangibles that are so important of coming to conference. You spend the money again and I just say you're putting energy into a system. You're building relationships, friendships, you're learning, and it can only happen face to face. It happens to a much lesser degree online via video conferences. So being there in person will give you that edge in your career that you can't find anywhere else.
Mark: You know, it's funny you say that because I hear a lot of people come back with, know, what's the ROI and you know, what did you mean? How much did you sell? How much did you make when you went there? And I always used to say this, how much did I make? I made zero. But what I did was I pollinated the flower and eventually the flower is going to grow and eventually we will blossom and we will grow and we will get something from that. Because I was there.
Kirsten Barnes: Mark coming in clutch with an analogy there.
Daniel Peters: going to jump to the lightning round. Quick quick answers. What's one thing every aquatic professional should focus on this year?
Mark: with Consistency.
Bob Kappel: separating fact from fiction, separating science from pseudoscience.
Mark: holding yourself at a higher standard.
Kirsten Barnes: love it. Yes, yes. Okay. Tell me a tool, a resource or technology that you guys think people should pay more attention to this year.
Bob Kappel: learning one more new thing.
Mark: Increase pay. lifeguard shortage, you know? Or pay, you'll get more lifeguards. ⁓
Bob Kappel: I think that if you can't attend classes at other conferences in person, look to attend as many things via video conference or just online learning as you possibly can, because a lot ⁓ of the content now, a lot of the important content is online. However, separate pseudoscience from science. you got to take that analogy in because there's so much out there online.
Daniel Peters: Okay, what's one lesson the industry keeps teaching you?
Mark: If you think you know everything about aquatics, you're wrong.
Bob Kappel: That's good point. The more things change, the more they remain the same.
Kirsten Barnes: What's your favorite part of being a part of the AOAP community?
Mark: seeing you and Bob every time I go to the show and the rest of my aquatic family.
Bob Kappel: I know. I have to do that too. You know, Mark, you hit it on the head because it's actually exciting for me to get back together with my friends, especially on the AOAP board. Some of these people are some of the finest people I've ever met in my life. so ⁓ it's like a reunion more than just coming in to do some work.
Mark: It is, for sure.
Daniel Peters: Okay, last one, coffee, conference hallway or exhibit hall. Where do the best conversations happen?
Mark: All the above. If that's not the case, you haven't experienced AOAP at its finest.
Bob Kappel: So I have to add one other place. It's called the bar. ⁓ Napkins have been the best drawing board, tablecloths. And also it's a term that is not mine. It's called thinking drinking. so, or drinking thinking, I forgot which order that comes in, but some of the best ideas come when you're a little bit lubricated from your favorite beverage and you're just.
Mark: Tablecloths.
Bob Kappel: you're throwing stuff out there and you're talking about things and you get some great ideas, great ideas.
Mark: think one of the things that AOAP is most proud about is it doesn't just happen in the coffee shop or the conference where the exhibit hall. It happens from the time you wake up to the time you go to bed.
Bob Kappel: And that's also indicated by how many people attend after hours events and just want to stay together and want to do things together and how many small groups get together. It's innumerable that they get together after events, just to stay together and keep talking.
Mark: There was a day that we used to stay up late and network until the wee hours of the morning, although that hasn't happened anymore. But, you know, I hope some people carry on that tradition.
Kirsten Barnes: Mark, I'm sure the younger folks are carrying it on on our stead, for sure. Like, there you go, Daniel.
Bob Kappel: That's the younger folks.
Mark: Ha
Daniel Peters: We got you. We got you.
Bob Kappel: That's we'll pass the baton
Mark: All right, Daniel Attaboy. Yeah.
Kirsten Barnes: Mark and Bob, thank you so much for joining us and for everything that you've contributed to the aquatics industry as a whole. Your experience and your leadership and just your willingness to share knowledge are a big part of what makes the aquatics industry stronger.
Mark: Thanks so much for having us.
Bob Kappel: Thank you. Thank you. It's been a pleasure to be here. Thank you.
Daniel Peters: So for our listeners, we'll include relevant AOAP conference and resource information in the show notes, along with links organizations companies mentioned today. To learn about AOAP's training, conference, and drowning prevention resources, visit aquaticpros.org. Thanks for listening, and we'll see you next time on AOAP's discussion from the deep end, made for aquatic professionals by aquatic professionals.