Deep End Competence: Rethinking What It Means to Be Water Ready

Angela Wild: instead of saying, did they pass the level, I think we need to begin with asking, is this child or is this person safer around water? And second, I think we need to also build lessons around not just teaching the strokes. We also need to enforce and emphasize that we're teaching judgment. We are reading the environment that the children are in and what to do when something goes wrong. in addition to just alongside that physical skill,
Daniel: Welcome to AOAP's Discussion from the Deep End, a podcast for aquatic professionals by aquatic professionals. We're here to share real stories and practical ideas to help you run safer and stronger aquatic programs and facilities. I'm Daniel Peters, your host, and I'm joined today by my co-host, Kirsten Barnes. AOAP is a nonprofit dedicated to improving aquatic education, recreation, and safety through training, resources, and community. Today's episode focuses on water competency. messaging and more. we're taking a deeper look into what aquatic education could be if we designed it as part of an injury prevention system, not just a swimming instruction. explore how public health, motor learning, and evidence-based communication can reshape the way we teach, message, and support safer participation around water.
Kirsten: Today we're excited to welcome Angela Wilde, a translational specialist in drowning prevention and water competence. Angela integrates 25 years of applied experience in aquatics and advanced training in motor learning and control and public health. She's the owner of Elemental Aquatics in San Diego, the Water Safety Syndicate, and the Buoy Up Foundation, where she works to merge research, practice, and community implementation. To reduce drowning and expand access to aquatic education. Angela's work centers on improving water competence instruction, strengthening safety messaging, and advancing public health-driven approaches to drowning prevention. We're excited to dive into this conversation with you, Angela. Thanks for joining us.
Angela Wild: Thank you for having me. It's such a mouthful when we talk about everything that is involved, but it's nonetheless an important topic.
Daniel: Angela, let's start with the big idea you shared with us. The question of what aquatic education would look like if we designed it as part of an injury prevention system, rather than thinking of it as primarily as swimming instruction. What does that shift mean to you?
Angela Wild: wow, good question. I think honestly we would need to start by flipping that starting question, right? So instead of saying, did they pass the level, I think we need to begin with asking, is this child or is this person safer around water? And second, I think we need to also build lessons around not just teaching the strokes. We also need to enforce and emphasize that we're teaching judgment. We are reading the environment that the children are in and what to do when something goes wrong. in addition to just alongside that physical skill, right? Because if you think about it, every lesson should point outward towards the rest of that safety picture. It's either a fence around a pool or It's about the adult who's watching. it's about the life jacket that we want to have that child wear in and around and on open water. It's around the emergency safety plan. we don't necessarily want to pretend like the lesson is the entire system, right? I think also we need to be really, really careful about our language and telling our children that they are safe around the water. because I think the moment a parent thinks that, you know, my child's got this, this is where they start to relax. And we don't want that. you know, and I think that distinction really matters because we want stronger skills and stronger systems, and those things should belong together, right? And we don't necessarily want or to create waterproof kids. I think we just want to build water competent people and water competent children inside those safer systems.
Kirsten: I like that idea of lessons as part of just something bigger around the water. You know, you've said that swim instructors are actually injury prevention professionals. How do we better connect what happens on the pool deck or by the water with this larger drowning prevention and public health ecosystem?
Angela Wild: Yeah, I love that. And I'm just gonna shout out because I have a a sticker on my water bottle that says swim instructors are prevention professionals. So if you see me around, I have a sticker for you. Happily give it away. I think first and foremost, we need to recognize that swim instructors are doing way more than teaching techniques, right? They are first and foremost building confidence, they're building resilience, they are helping shape how a family sees the water and how responsible they are in and on and around the Water, I think they're also responsible for how they see risk and even what safe means to that particular household, right? And we can teach instructors how to connect those dots out loud. It can say, for example, here's why we practice that exit, and here's what it's actually for. But we don't necessarily need to turn those into like safety lectures or promising more than what the actual lesson can deliver. something I'm really passionate about is I think that we can really improve our two-way streets between the practitioners and the researchers. And those researchers writing papers and the instructors stranding on the deck every day because unfortunately right now we have more information flowing in one direction, or you know, unfortunately not at all. So I also think that instructors, swimming instructors really should have a seat at the table when standards get written and community plan prevention works. Because if you think about it, they see families way more weekly, sometimes multiple days per week than many researchers or policymakers they see us in a year. And I think finally, and I'm gonna be really blunt about this, is that you know, if we want consistent, high-quality supervisors and swim instructors doing this work, we have to invest in those people doing it. We have to pay them fairly, we have to keep them around, we have to give them real good professional development because, in my opinion, that's prevention infrastructure. Whereas unfortunately, many facilities really look at it almost like overhead. And if you think about it, like the pool deck isn't really downstream from prevention. I think the pool deck is somewhat where prevention is actually translated into human behavior.
Daniel: When it comes to kind of families thinking about how much safety is involved with swimming, what are some of the misconceptions you see in how that water competence is communicated?
Angela Wild: Yeah, Kristen will know about it. We talk about this all the time. And this is such a big thing and I encourage and I'm so grateful that AOAP is taking this position of having better words and communication. But for me, the phrase water safe is probably the most dangerous phrase in our whole field because for many parents and community members, it does sound like a finish line. And it's almost like parents relax in their vigilance and we don't necessarily want that. So we talk about a preferred word would be safer, right? We're helping to build safe. Children. Because you know, when you see a child who's swimming and they're in swim trunks in an 85-degree pool, they can fall apart skill-wise if they fall into a cold lake with jeans on or in the ocean with is choppy waves hitting their face. And that can be really, really scary. know, and we don't necessarily want to see competence as like a box that you check. And I think right now some instructors are viewing it that way. I think we need to view aquatic competence as more that it grows and it shifts depending on the child, the task, and the water that they're actually in that day. Because you know, swim lessons can change a child's capabilities, but I don't necessarily think that swim lessons then transfer that responsibility from adults to children.
Kirsten: I think that's a really good point. A lot of parents view swim lessons, okay, you're safer or you're older and you're safer. And I can really step back. You know, here at AOAP, we are working to elevate aquatic education nationally. Where do you see AOAP fitting into this shift toward more of a public health-centered approach?
Angela Wild: Yeah, I love that. And as someone who is just, you know, in the public health space and aquatics newly, it's exciting to see and be a part of this evolution. So I think AOAP is really well positioned. I think they're gonna be a great bridge. it's a place where you have facility operators, pool deck operators, swim instructors, and then also the public health folks actually talking to each other. And for example, like it can help us all talk the same language, right? So for water safe and supervision and near drowning, dry drowning, if we're all speaking the same language, it all should sound the same, whether you're from Ohio or Oregon. and you know, I think we really can turn the research that is currently happening in the academic world into the things that people can use on the pool deck or in their facilities on you know Monday morning, whether that be training modules or checklists, or for example. Example, some things that I do are research briefs because nobody wants to read like a 22-page research paper. whereas I produce these research briefs that are very easy to read and boils all the information down, and swim instructors or aquatics facility owners or swim school owners can use that directly in their programming. I think the strongest solutions is that we all can agree, we've all been talking about this, but that the those strongest solutions are going to be across disciplines, not within our silos.
Kirsten: And I think you hit on something really important there. Research is fantastic, but if you're not schooled in how to read research, it can really bog you down. So building this bridge from research to practitioner, I think is
Angela Wild: Mm.
Kirsten: the next step, right? It should research now can help us drive some decision making.
Daniel: Yeah, and you're looking for that to translate at all levels, right? Not just the the people up above in the admin team. It's when we're kind of getting especially for those that aren't in that structure right now. So to kind of make that first mindset change, what do facilities need in order to adopt this injury prevention lens?
Angela Wild: I think first and foremost, women instructors specifically, and even aquatics directors, they probably should shift their mindset. And I would invite many of you listening to shift your mindset that to stop measuring that success by what happens in that 30-minute lesson, right? Because it's easy to see, but it's not necessarily the whole story. So an alternative would be to ask, you know, three questions instead. You know, can they do it right now? Will they be able to do it later? Can they adapt? If something changes, whether that be a different pool, whether that be a different day, whether that be, you know, different conditions. And I also think I welcome some instructors to start seeing everything, you know, the everything around them, the gate latch, who's handing the child off to whom, how you staff the deck, the conversations with parents at pickup as one part of the prevention system, not just necessarily like separate boxes to check with curriculum. And then then tying it back into what I previously said, you know, we still need to work on swapping out confident phrases and descriptions. And a really great example, I hear this all the time. Our swim instructors, they'll hand the child off to a parent and say, Susie did great today. She, you know, she worked on backfloats, that was wonderful. Or alternatively, a much better descriptor would be, you know, Susie demonstrated a backfloat three times. Please practice at home, but also make sure you're helping her practice maybe with different clothes on, or if you're going to be practicing, maybe make the water choppier. You're giving that parent a little bit more specific instruction, not something completely, vague, if you will. and that doesn't that doesn't necessarily diminish the value of that instruction. I just think it makes our communication way more credible.
Kirsten: Nothing wrong with giving families the next step after their child leaves a lesson. I love it.
Angela Wild: Right. Yeah.
Kirsten: So you've talked about the difference between performance and learning, and you just touched on this a little bit that a child performing a skill in a lesson isn't necessarily the same as retaining it or being able to use it later. Can you break that down for our listeners just a little bit?
Angela Wild: Yeah, I for those who've gotten close to me and know me well, I'm a complete and total motor learning nerd. I actually pursued a master's degree in this field after being a swim instructor for so long and recognizing that this is an entire science. And I found it to be completely fascinating. So, very simply put, performance is what we see when we are helping. And learning is really what remains when that help, you know, is gone. So, simply put, the performance is what you see when Right now, in that lesson at that moment. And it's usually when that swim instructors write their coaching or cueing or helping. And it really looks great, and it often is great in that moment, right? Whereas learning is something different, and that is whether that ability actually sticks around after time passes or shows up when the situation changes. So, for example, if a child has done lessons and then hasn't had lessons for three months, goes on vacation, but is able to demonstrate Those same skills in potentially like even a spring wetsuit versus bathing suit in colder water, we can confidently say that child has learned that skill versus just a temporary performance. So for swim instructors, a little tip would be to ask yourself or to break this down like this is that retention is do they still have it for later? But then transfer would be can they use it somewhere new? And can they do it when it doesn't look exactly like a swim lesson, right? And I really want to be clear here that you know it's not me necessarily saying that instruction doesn't matter because that's it. It's just that I think we should measure the things that we actually care about and whether that lasts, right? Because if If the evidence asks us to distinguish what looks successful today from what remains available later, we don't want it to be all performance. We want to make sure that the children are actually demonstrating longer term.
Daniel: And how does that concept kind of change the way we design lessons, the way we practice and that skill progression?
Angela Wild: Yeah, I I love teaching this way. I also really love mentoring instructors on practice schedules and the research on this is incredibly rich. So let's start with, you know, very simple ground up. Mix it up on purpose, right? We want to change where they enter, how they exit, what direction that they're facing, the depth, the distance, even the equipment, or maybe even remove the equipment entirely so that they are not just memorizing one version of the task. And I Think that we need to slowly pull back the hand holding. And I mean this literally and figuratively. Stop holding on to your kids so much so that they actually notice how their body is moving in the water and they're noticing what to do and figuring it out instead of just following your cue. Because in motor learning, we call the error detection, error correction. And if your students are constantly listening to your feedback, sometimes they're negating the feelings within their body of whether or not it feels good. Or if they're able to recognize when they're making mistakes, right? And then tying piggybacking off of that, we don't necessarily want to have instructors like check a skill off a list once and move on. They need to be returning to those skills. And I'm gonna use an example of toddlers. Toddlers are great because oftentimes I see some instructors. Teaching a skill and then they just check it off. They hand parents a graduation certificate. I'll use something very simple. This child learned how to backflow. They get a certificate and yay, it graduated level one. But suddenly, over a span of maybe 12 weeks, that toddler has had a huge growth spurt, and suddenly they are heavier and taller. And suddenly now they're doing their swim skills in a heavier body and a longer body. And it's quite common then that. Parents are saying this child can't do the skill that we just graduated or we received this award from. And so you can't necessarily just check a skill l skill off a list. You've got to revisit it because the body and the talent changes, right? And that kind of also ties into you should be asking the kids and the families, you know, do you remember this? Or let's see if you remember this after some time has passed. So tying back in learning and performance, right? And then I'm gonna put a quick caveat to that is that We want variability in practice, but when you make things harder, you have to be careful only to change one thing at a time. And it's always within the framework of making sure that child feels safe. We never want to compromise emotional or physical safety, especially if that goal is that lesson variability.
Kirsten: You know, it's super interesting that you say that. My great niece is five. She's been going to swim lessons every week. I saw her in June, and her backfloat in class was really great. She's really proud. She was able to really sustain that. Went back to visit her in August. We went to a birthday party at the same pool. And outside of that setting, she really struggled to get turned over and sustain a backfloat. So is this what it looks like when instructors are unintentionally teaching for performance and not for learning?
Angela Wild: It can be, yeah. And I want to really make sure that you know I'm not being perceived as criticizing instructors. But when you hear the exact same cue every single attempt, then without realizing it, that cue is actually part of that skill. So often if you take the cue away, then that skill disappears too. So Extending that, oftentimes parents wonder why their instructors have suddenly gone quiet. Well, for those of you that know, it's really important to teach and then suddenly fade away your verbal cues. So if your instructor has gone quiet and your students are in a lesson that's silent, that's actually a really good thing because your students are figuring it out without the verbal cues of their instructor. Second to that would be that if the child does that same route, like we talked before, if it's the same lane or the same depth or the same gear every single time, of course it's going to look perfect because it's necessarily that same test over and over again. And with that instructor being right there, if their hand is on them or giving them some support, sometimes it can be confusing because parents might think, well, she can do it on her own versus she's gaining a little bit of support, right? And I I think honestly, programs reward sometimes what looks the most impressive at the moment, where I think some focus could be reshifted into what are they actually retaining after weeks or in different environments. Because as instructors, I think ultimately that outcome is what matters. the outcome that matters is kind of what remains when the prompting is gone or the fading and the cueing supports are gone. And we don't necessarily want the lesson to be successful because the instructor is a part of that lesson. I hope that made sense.
Kirsten: That I think that ties back into your comment earlier about kind of giving parents, hey, practice this skill in different environments.
Angela Wild: Mm-hmm.
Kirsten: It can't just stop at swim lessons. We have to continue to educate families as well.
Angela Wild: Yeah, yeah.
Daniel: When it comes to kind of applying those motor learning principles, how can AOAP members improve retention, adaptability and decision making in their programs?
Angela Wild: Yeah. I love this field so much. I think you know, you ultimately you want to start naming the actual skill that you're after and then create real life situations where that child may actually need it, not just the version that looks really good in lessons. And so that's again essentially what water competency is is what we want to create is aquatic problem solvers. And so if your child is going to need skills that involve open water, choppy water, cold water, a canal, a river, Rip tides, rip currents, you should be designing lessons that mimic those situations to help your students grow. Coming back to the silent lesson. Please, swim instructor, use fewer words, clearer cues, and then get out of their way. Constant verbal feedback can really be detrimental to a child's learning. And even parents sometimes they get overzealous with the good job, you're doing great, big kicks, go, go, go. Nope. Step back, reduce your cues and get out of their way. Because then you give the child an opportunity to solve that movement problem rather than essentially like narrating every step for them, right? Now this. Where it can get a little bit tricky sometimes, but you want to make sure that you're changing the practice on purpose, and there should be intention or reason behind each change. Lessons and the way you structure them should not just have random change all the time because that tends to and can confuse students, right? I actually built this framework. It's called the Fact Framework. It stands for framework for aquatic competence transfer. And Part of the tenants is three factors, is treating lessons from a component of can they do it right now? Can they still do it later? And can they do it somewhere else as three separate really honest checkpoints instead of lumping it together? So to summarize, I think coaching your instructors to sort of watch the whole picture, the task, the environment, and that person, instead of just checking whether the stroke is sort of matching a checklist or what. the training manual says. You know, and that's really where motor learning science becomes really useful on the pool deck or in the pool.
Kirsten: So I think that you bring up something really important here around messaging. How do we help families understand that doing it once isn't the same as being able to do it somewhere, you know, in the future or in a different environment?
Angela Wild: Yeah, quick recaps after lessons are really important. Now, this caveat is that I hear instructors constantly say, How am I supposed to do this in really busy lessons if I have a lot of groups? And it is possible to do that. You do have to keep it brief, but you also have modalities of emails and phone calls and things like that. But generally speaking, I coach instructors to say something specific and simple like today in our, you know, in our pool, my pool's 92 degrees, and I'm standing right next to her, your daughter was able to do a backflip for five seconds. So I'm giving accurate information i'm not overpromising i'm explaining what i'm doing but what that doesn't tell you necessarily is can that student still do that next week or without Her swim instructor nearby, or can she do that at Grandma's Lake House, right? So you want to give them, as we said earlier, next steps. Next steps are really important. Encourage that retention and coming back to lessons and encourage close and vigilant supervisions, but practicing in settings, but also practicing and giving the children opportunity to operate under some slight variability to practice what may mimic in real life, but it's important to. Do that without dropping or diminishing those other layers of protection. And I'm going to say this again because it ties directly back, and you'll notice a theme is that I really dislike the word graduation from swim lessons. Words like water safe or they graduated, I think oftentimes displays a message to parents that that risk is now gone, and we don't want to reduce that risk. And with swim instructors, as I said before, you know, the children they grow and the pools they change and you know seasons change, the water gets colder. So what is being displayed that day in, you know, a hundred and what are we, 101 degrees right now in September in San Diego may not be reflective in February at a pool in Colorado, right? So I think if I were to say a general line would be that a useful message for families would be celebrate progress, but continue with every layer of protection.
Kirsten: So Angela, how do we teach risk awareness and judgment in ways that are age appropriate that actually will stick with kids?
Angela Wild: Yeah, that first and foremost Please encourage instructors if you're listening, aquatics directors, as you're watching and listening to this. It's possible to build really tiny decisions into real activities, right? A lot of us instructors we talk about agency and giving our students agency. Sometimes you'll hear in this field command style instruction or authoritarian instruction. So you can give them tiny decisions. So for example, what exit would you pick right now? What changed about the water right now? What's your water safety plan? What would be the first thing that you do, right? You're asking them questions to be problem solvers, not giving them tasks, authoritarian style tasks. and I've mentioned this before, but I want to touch on this again is that ultimately with risk awareness, we want to really skip the scare tactics and the shame tactics. Shame and and fear really have no place in swim instructions. Children learn through, you know, they learn judgment through guided experience. Experiences and play. They learn through music and stories and scanning their surroundings and taking all this information in, and obviously through repetition. But when we operate from a place of shame or scare tactics or intimidation, you reduce learning and you completely destroy trust. And not only do you destroy trust within profession, meaning parents are never really gonna trust that professional anymore, but you've now remove that trust from that child. And that is no place in swim instruction. But that's for little kids, right? And scare tactics and shame also should be with seniors if you're working adults. So I don't want to just pigeonhole it to just children. I want to make sure that I'm clear that scare and shame should also include all ages and abilities. But for little kids, I think you are possible to pair a really simple rule with an adult job. So keep the rule really simple, but the actual hazard that hazard control still belongs to a grown up, right? We're not expecting a child to call 911, but we can teach a two or three year old to say, That person looks like they're struggling. I'm gonna go run and get mommy and point to that person, right? You can give them a really small job. But for older kids and adults, you can layer in more realistic complexity, right? Real environmental conditions, situations involving friends, actual decision pressure. Sometimes that might look if you are a boating family, having discussions around boating and substances and alcohol, rough housing, especially young men. Statistically, the research tells us that young men are the ones that are getting hurt more often in and around a Environment. So having those conversations around decision pressure and peer pressure is also can be really helpful. Yeah, I think the goal is not necessarily like a memorized answer. I think the key here is just teaching adaptable judgment, would be sort of a generalized way, I would say that.
Daniel: And then are there any like maybe specific things that aquatic programs are commonly falling short on when trying to teach and communicate these broader competencies?
Angela Wild: It's a great question, Daniel. I would say a lot of programs we're still seeing, even though I'm really pleased to see that a lot of programs are still building around strokes and levels and badges. And I understand because it's easy, it's really wonderful to show parents the children receive something and they can put it on a certificate. but I think Judgment and hazard awareness oftentimes gets tackled on at the end. sometimes it's like a two-minute chat, and I could argue that we should be building it into the swim task or the lesson structure itself, right? We can't disagree that most children they practice in the same predictable pool each week and really that environment almost never changes. So variability, we keep talking about this, is really important. And so a great example would be, you know, programs often teach what you would do if you fell in with your clothes on, right? Heavy jackets, jeans, things like that. And what the research has shown us, and I want to give a real special shout out to the NDPA for their campaign that they did, what the clothes that they wore, that we we now know that oftentimes children drown during non-swim time, so that they have clothes on. so we should be incorporating that into our program. But then also there should be moments where that is tested and checked and ensured that that retention is staying weeks, months, and maybe even years later. And finally We talk about this and I sound like a broken record, but I think in our space we can't repeat these messages enough. But you we want to talk about the exciting progress that these children are doing, but we don't necessarily want to undersell that they need to be closely supervised and a part of a larger layer of protection. and that comes with really good honest caregiver communication, caregivers, parents, and that belongs inside the curriculum, right? It doesn't necessarily belong on the margins of it.
Kirsten: Absolutely. That if we could just tattoo layers of protection on every swimmer, gosh,
Angela Wild: Ha ha ha.
Kirsten: that'd be great. You know, AOAP
Angela Wild: Mm.
Kirsten: has really made a conscious effort to unify terminology and standards across the profession. How important is this consistent language when we're talking about water competence?
Angela Wild: Where's my microphone? I want to scream this from the top rooftops. so many of you listening, I think we all are in agreement. For those of you are listening that may not, I can't stress that water safety professionals across the country have been working diligently and so hard to change the landscape of proper messaging, whether that be from families, through media, through journalism, every avenue, pediatricians, we are really working hard to change the landscape of how drowning and water competency and water safety is being reported and discussed because language really does a lot of the quiet work. It shapes how parents perceive events and what they can expect. Language helps shape how policies are written and how they get measured and passed. And oftentimes policy or excuse me, language really shapes how families behave, right? And so if we used the same word For the same thing, we then I think could compare programs and research to each other without forcing everyone's curriculum to look identical. And it would be lovely if we all said the same terminology across the board. But that also means that we have to take it one step lower and we have to agree on what water competency means. We all need to come together to have collective understanding of the true definition of water competence. How to define performance, learning, retention, supervision, layers of protection, right? Because those words mean different things to different people. And we've talked at nauseum about this, but I'll stress it again that you know when we put social media posts that say drown proof or news reports state near drowning, those terms sound simple, but they hide a ton of important context underneath that's incorrect. And we are working diligently to change. that. And so I think it's also really important that being consistent with that messaging doesn't necessarily mean it's like a one-size-fit-all. We still can be respectful of like the age or the culture or the ability or the setting. It's just meaning that you know we're not promoting words that are inaccurate. And I think the shared language gives us that exact precision. While allowing agency and autonomy for other programs or individuality for other programs. Because I've said this before, this is something that I brought from another presentation. But when our language promises more than what our evidence can support, inherently then families are the ones that are inheriting that risk, not us.
Daniel: And then for maybe new facilities or for facilities that are maybe trying to incorporate a new infrastructure when it comes to just the swim program, what elements would you add to support the true water competency?
Angela Wild: Yeah, honestly, this is essential this is basically what my fact framework is. In a nutshell, I built this program around it. Fact again stands for a framework for aquatic competence transfer, and it builds five pieces working together. And ideally, I'd love to see every program do this. the first, it's a real map of everything that counts as competence, right? We have physical, mental, emotional, environmental, those decision-making rescue skills. It's not just about strokes. the second, there is this three-part. check that I come back to, retention and transfer. It's what can they do now? What do they still have later? And can they use it somewhere new? Or I'll also use that word foreign, right? Something that's unfamiliar to them. And third, it would be like real tools for instructors, not just do this drill or copy this lesson plan, but the why behind the what, right? For those of you Simon Cynic fans, I steal his stuff all the time. But the why behind the what. Why does this matter? What is it actually for, and how to change it up appropriately, and also what not to promise a parent, which then ties back into my fourth component, which would be having really realistic, short, honest conversations with. Every family that connects the lesson to the supervision layers of protection like fences or life jackets, emergency plan, etc. but also, above all, I think fifth would be to recognize that you have to build real flexibility into that program from day one because you have different ages, you have different abilities, you have different cultures, you have different starting points, and that shouldn't necessarily be an aftermath to your programming. And would really, really invest in instructors long after they get certified, right? Because if you think about it, a credential can be professional development, but it really can't complete it. So coaching and feedback over time should be consistent and high quality, not just like a one-and-done credential. And then finally, I would make sure that our marketing, the signup forms, what happens on deck, the conversations, what we tell at parents, everybody is telling the exact same story.
Kirsten: That consistency and messaging again. And also, we're
Angela Wild: Yeah.
Kirsten: so good as a profession at doing in-service training for lifeguards. Why do we forget with swim instructors? Which is a whole other conversation. So I digress.
Angela Wild: Ha ha
Kirsten: You know, Angela, in other conversations, I've heard you draw those parallels between drowning prevention and areas like Car seat safety and bike and pedestrian safety and firearm injury prevention. What can aquatics learn from those fields?
Angela Wild: so much. So much. look at any injury prevention story, right? And you'll notice that it's never just one message or one perfect person. It's always about having those things stacked together. So let's start with car seats. car seats, they got safer because of product standards and they got safer because of laws and better installation instructions. Or, you know, quick shout out to Safe Kids, my own here in San Diego, Safe Kids San Diego. You have certified car seat specialists who learn how to do this. So if you don't go to your local first responder, your local fire department, go to your local safe kids chapter. And you will actually find individuals who have gone through this training. So you have better installation instruction. You know, it's 2026, so now we have safer cars. We're gonna have self-driving cars in a minute, or we have them. You have parents also doing their part, so it's not necessarily just one, you know, heroic parenting choice. then moving on to cribs, let's talk about cribs. We don't necessarily expect a infant to notice when a crib is not safe. Right. we noticed that cribs were unsafe because we changed the manufacturing standards, we changed their design. Our recalls got better. So we pulled the unsafe cribs off the shelves. So as you can see, there were different layers to this, right? It wasn't just one person or one element. Firearm storage is another one. this is a big one, right? And say firearm storage it it's really about limiting access to something dangerous. Now I wanna be clear because I'm not necessarily saying that the guns and water are the same thing. Please don't misconstrue that. But I think what the important message here is to recognize that the underlying idea is the same, right? We're preventing access to something that is a hazard. That's where that is really the same. So we can take knowledge from that area as well. And there's actually this framework for it. It's called the hierarchy of controls. And you know, you can ask yourself. Can we remove this danger entirely? Can we engineer a barrier? we change adult behavior? And only then could we then change the individual skill? And I do think, I do think aquatics needs all of that. I do. I think we need to strengthen instruction, but we also continue to strengthen the facility design and how we staff and supervise and our emergency plans and a lot of the actual policies behind all of it. I think in general we didn't solve childhood injuries by asking the kids to outsmart that hazard, right? We changed the systems around it. And yet in swim, we keep asking the children to learn how to swim, or we keep asking the parents to just watch your child. Do you see the parallels that if we create safer systems, then reduce the risk?
Daniel: And how do those parallels help us think differently about delayed drowning prevention?
Angela Wild: I think we see this across the board with the the Swiss cheese model that's talked about a lot in water safety, right? If you have a slice of Swiss cheese, it has the hole and things can fall through. But if you start stacking Swiss cheese layers, it winds up becoming a fairly solid block. So water safety and drowning prevention is very similar. So I think the big lesson is that every layer should be able to stand on its own, right? But if one fails, then it does not take down the whole system. So think of it like this: a A fence is going to keep a child wandering into the pool unsupervised. But then an adult watching them should handle that moment to moment. But if in the event that that child falls into the pool, the swim lessons that they have taken should actually build and support the skill. Or if you're in on and around open water, a life jacket should aid in that flotation. Having an emergency plan could limit how bad things get, right? Like CPR. So I think we need to. recognize that none of those layers are perfect on their own. but also none of them gets to be lazy just because the other layer exists, right? Like that's really important to think about. So I guess you could say, like, it's not that the one thing works. It's how do we stack a bunch of imperfect layers together so that we're fully covered. And so I think facilities in general can make this really real with things like clear supervision handoff, like literally who's watching the child right now, really clear parent orientations, staff drills, and again, saying the same thing consistently everywhere, because the question is not really what. what layer wins, it's essentially what layer remains strong when one of them fails. And I think it's really important too, because I get laughed at, but layers of protection aren't a slogan, right? I don't want people to think of layers of protection are a slogan. They're really, if you think about it, a design requirement. Because if one layer fails, another still has to be standing.
Kirsten: And I think you hit on something really important. It's how we're communicating risk. You talked earlier about we don't want to shame and and judge or scare people. And also we have to communicate that there is risk. And you've talked about some of those things and some of the ways that we can communicate that in aquatics, which I think is really important.
Angela Wild: Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. Yeah. Exactly. Be accurate. Tell people exactly what to do. be honest about even what we don't know. But having the same messaging, I think it's really key. And you know, you can actually test it with real families and staff because what you meant to say and what people actually hear sometimes can be, you know, two different things. So I think the framework that I come back to is like real progress plus continued protection, right? And I think that communication standard, it acknowledges their capability, but it doesn't create false assurance.
Daniel: And when it comes to fitting into that broader injury prevention system, where do you see AUAP in that process?
Angela Wild: Yeah, this is such an exciting time. It's it's wonderful. I really see AOAP being an organization that helps represent people that You know, there are those that can turn policy and research into what happens on a Tuesday at 4 p.m., right? Staffing, training, signs on the wall, the lesson plans. It's part of what I do as a translational specialist. I take the research that people are producing that no one wants to read, no one has the bandwidth to read. I boil it down and then I give it as tools and resources for instructors and program designers to do so that they can actually make their program better. And I think that's really exciting that AOAP can be that. Organization and that bridge as part of that injury prevention ecosystem. And I think it can take public health guidance and help translate it into real staffing decisions and real training and real signage and how we talk to families. And I'd love to see that more because. There is a significant disconnect between public health and drowning prevention. There is a strong connection in public health with firearm safety and car seats and cribs and all those, but yet we're still lacking the momentum that we need to gain attention within the public health spectrum. I plan to be a thorn in the side of that organization and wanna get going on that. So, you know, I'm excited about that, but I digress. I also think, you know, you need to have aquatics professionals in the room with pediatricians and injury prevention researchers, you know, even like insurance and disability advocate and Community groups, because let's really be honest, those are rooms that we're not always invited into. And we need to be. Because I think we have the I think we have the strong capacity to tell researchers and policymakers what actually happens on the ground because we're the ones in the trenches. There's such a disconnect between those maybe in a law office or in the White House and those in the academic castles with those of us who are in the swimming pool 30 to 40 hours a week, 15, 20 years, we see what the children. Are capable of and we can see how things are actually playing out. But most importantly, I think it really also. I think in this room and people listening can understand that this ultimately can break down silos, like period. Because if everyone is speaking the same language and actually learning from each other, then we're not working in parallel. because I I really think that the real opportunity in aquatics is to become full partners in the injury prevention ecosystem. And right now we're at the fledgling step of that.
Kirsten: I think you hit on something really important. And I think the model aquatic health code is a great framework for that, right? That's a document that brought together engineers and architects and operators and equipment manufacturers, public health officials, all into one place and said, let's start to build out this framework. So we know it's possible. Now we just have to expand it into this kind of swim instructor, water competency space.
Angela Wild: Yeah.
Kirsten: Angela, if there was one injury prevention principle that you wished every aquatic professional understood, what would that be?
Angela Wild: I'll start with this. Education works best when it's backed up by the environment and the organization and the actual policy. It's It rather than just being left to carry the whole load by itself, right? I also think that we need to recognize that people's attention is not perfect. And no matter how good or how careful you are, a good system plus planning is better than pretending like it won't happen. and I also think if a safety plan only works. When every single person remembers every single step every single time, then that plan probably needs another layer because people are human. And I think a strong safety system does not assume perfect people. I think it plans almost compassionately so for human beings to be imperfect. Human beings are human.
Daniel: You said that one of your biggest challenges you had in making research genuinely usable for instructors and aquatic professionals. What what gets in the way of that?
Angela Wild: I could talk about this for hours. We could do an entire other podcast on this. I'll keep this succinct. I will be careful. So, first and foremost, as someone who has spent the last four years deep in research, reading so many papers for part of that was for my fact framework. the original paper that I produced was 87 pages. I know for many academics you're laughing, but for me, it was the culmination of four years of reading a lot of research. that then got boiled down and is sent to some journals I'm hoping for peer review. But what I want to share about that is that without fail A lot of really, really good research is hidden behind a paywall that no one has access to. And then on top of that, it's written in an academic language for an audience of other academics. Right. And so that can be really challenging. And as Kristen was saying, and something that I really love to do, is I love to take those papers and boil them down and simplify them and then send them out to the world so people can go, the latest position paper or this latest, you know. Literary review about water competency. I don't want to read 17 pages. I don't understand, you know, conclusions and the data, but I can read Angela's very brief, you know, very brief brief, as I just said. Research briefs, what I call them. but then I also think that they don't necessarily account for the real time and budget constraints of actual swim programs. And that can be really challenging for programs to implement because. I've seen this before about a lot of studies, they sometimes leave out exactly what I would want to know as an instructor and how I would want to implement that into my program or how that would make it better. For example, like what did the instructor actually do, or how are they trained, or how do I know that they did it even you know consistently? Because you know, frontline instructors or instructors that are just passionate, dedicated, tenured professionals, they sometimes get handed that headline of like swim lessons work, right? But oftentimes there is not as much supporting evidence of well, how do I make my swim lesson better based on actual research? Or what do the experts say about making this more evidence-based? And I really think that we lose so much to instructors that aren't invited to help design the research in the first place. And that's something that I would like to see, you know, changed. They don't know the things that we know. We don't we capture so much data. And again, like I said, you know, that's kind of my that's my job. It's sort of like the missing middle. It's I create guidebooks and prompts and checklists and research briefs to help change that landscape. Because I really think that the research, the research to practice gap isn't necessarily like a knowledge problem alone. It's really a design problem. Because if research becomes meaningful when professionals are using it in the exact settings that the prevention's actually gonna happen, right?
Kirsten: I think that's so important. And you know, you're like hitting on all my things that I love, this idea of data and research and implementation. And you know, AOAP and NDPA are developing a joint poster session to help us bridge research and practice. And we're so excited that Alyssa from NDPA suggested this. And we've got you and our research liaison, Natalie Martin, involved. Why are opportunities like this so important to instructors in the field?
Angela Wild: I'm so excited about this. I'm so excited about this. I could go on and on and on. I think one of the most important thing is that a poster session Should not necessarily be a hallway of finished answers, right? Of studies and projects. I see it as a marketplace. I see it as a marketplace of better questions and better partnerships. I think it really gives an opportunity for researchers and students, especially those ones that are just starting out, a direct line to the people who actually might use their work, right? And then on the other side, practitioners get to hear about those ideas early because. Unfortunately, the alternative is that that research gets flattened into a headline or buried for years in some publication or gets stuck behind a paywall. So I think a poster starts a real conversation. You can walk up to that researcher or that program implementer and you can say, Hey, what does that program actually mean for me? My program, my camp, my school, my swim school. I think that's a really wonderful opportunity. And I think for especially like first-time researchers or small community project or program evaluators that don't have the fit or the capability to get into those big conferences, this is a wonderful opportunity to bridge that gap. And it goes both ways, right? Because honestly, you can have practitioners pushing back on the researchers and say, well that doesn't necessarily work in real life or that wouldn't work in my pool, which then helps them shape better research questions. And that's where this circle gets amazing. So I I like to think of it like it's an invitation to build better questions together. And that's one of the reasons why I'm so excited to have the opportunity to see this build and grow because already what we're seeing in these partnerships and people sharing this information is a wonderful, wonderful collaboration.
Daniel: Yeah, just carrying on a conversation that everybody is already having, but now just collectively to piece those information pieces together. I I love it.
Angela Wild: Yeah.
Daniel: if you could give aquatic professionals one practical step to start closing the research to practice gap, what would it be?
Angela Wild: That's a good question. I would say pick one claim. to make in your program, right? Just one. And then trace it back. What's the evidence behind it? What are we actually observing? And what would change your mind or our mind, depending on the program. But I think you need to really start small. Just take one skill and then add two things to see how you already assess it, like a quick check-in after some time has passed or a version of it that's slightly different in a slightly different setting. And then, you know, for leaders, bring your instructors in to look at the results with you and ask them what the numbers are missing. And And usually they can tell you something about the data that you might miss. Because as we've kind of mentioned before, a single practice can turn evidence into a culture of learning rather than kind of like a compliance exercise, right?
Daniel: we are going to jump into our lightning round now.
Angela Wild: Ooh, lightning round. I'm excited for this.
Daniel: Quick questions, quick answers, and all right, what's one water competency concept every facility should highlight this month?
Angela Wild: Ooh. Capability changes with the person, the task, and the environment. So competence depends on the context.
Kirsten: I like that. What's one skill instructors should reinforce more often to support retention and transfer?
Angela Wild: Can they self-rescue? Can they get themselves back to a safe position on their own, breathe, figure out what's happening, decide what to do next without someone cueing them? Can they be aquatic problem solvers?
Daniel: What's the most important quality in a strong aquatic educator?
Angela Wild: I have two for this one. I'm gonna say I think it's the ability to actually watch the child in front of you and adjust on the fly. But not lose sight of the safety or what you're trying to teach. But I'm gonna pair that with emotional regulation. And it's not on behalf of the child, it's on behalf of the swim instructor. I think swim instructors need to really, really, really reinforce and work on their abilities to emotionally regulate. Because when you're working with a whole group of kids and a bunch of different challenges and bunch of different emotions, your ability to regulate your nervous system makes you a profoundly better instructor. And that That makes a big difference in how that child perceives that lesson.
Kirsten: that's fantastic. Angela, what's one misconception people still have about drowning preventure or water competence?
Angela Wild: Hmm, there's no single hero. There's no single hero in drowning prevention. The system has to work as a team. So it's not just swim lessons, it's not just a pool fence, it's not just a device. Everything, layers of protection, the supervision, CPR training, all of that has to carry the whole weight as a unit.
Daniel: And last one, what gives you the most optimism about the future of aquatic safety communication?
Angela Wild: This opportunity right here, and then the poster session creates a larger opportunity where we're seeing more willingness from across different fields to connect with each other, especially aquatics connecting across other disciplines. But within swim instructors specifically, I'm seeing a much more Active movement and willingness to question the language that we're using, question the languages that we've inherited, actually start listening to practitioners of different modalities and curriculums and backgrounds and trainings rather than judging and calling them out or criticizing them. I think I'm really excited because we're also being able to turn research and policy and evidence into things that families actually can use.
Kirsten: Angela, thank you so much for sharing your expertise and for the work that you're doing to elevate water competence, improve safety messaging, and to strengthen drowning prevention education. Your public health-centered approach reflects exactly the kind of innovation that our field needs. We'll include links to Angela's work and some relevant AOAP resources in the show notes.
Angela Wild: Thank you so much for having me, I appreciate it.
Daniel: We hope this episode gives listeners practical ideas they can use in their own facilities and programs to strengthen water competence instruction, improve communication, and support better outcomes. To learn more about the Association of Aquatic Professionals, our training, conference, and resources, visit aquaticprose.org. Thanks for listening and we'll see you next time on AOAP's Discussion from the Deep End, A podcast made for aquatic professionals by aquatic professionals.