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00:01:08.742So we have this very special yeast that, instead of making alcohol or making bread, it makes fats and oils, so just like very similar to palm oil or animal fats and like the cool, sustainable part of it.
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00:01:18.346Besides, the fermentation part is that we are using side streams from industries that we feed the yeast and it's produced fats and oils.
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00:01:21.853So we're trying to make it like a circular economy process.
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00:01:28.073Welcome to another Climate Tech Podcast interviews with the people trying to save us from ourselves.
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00:01:34.813Nemailla Bonturi is the co-founder of Ayo, an Estonian startup making fats and oils from fermentation.
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00:01:42.974She's a scientist turned entrepreneur, whose advanced research into yeast is going to result in a healthier environment and diet for all of us.
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00:01:47.311We talked about the company Estonia and the X-Files.
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00:01:49.385I reached Nemailla in Tallinn.
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00:01:50.643I'm Ryan Grant.
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00:01:56.262Little Thanks for being here, Nemailla.
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00:01:59.987welcome to the podcast Hi Ryan, Happy to be here.
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00:02:09.867You are the co-founder of IO, a startup working to replace the unsustainable fats and oils out there with high quality substitutes.
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00:02:11.671Where did you get the idea for this company?
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00:02:19.830Well, it started a long time ago when I was doing my PhD and I started working with this very fantastic microbe.
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00:02:27.401Of course, back in the day, I didn't think about the company, because us scientists are not trained to monetize our findings.
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00:02:47.271So it was when I moved to Estonia and I started getting in contact with this amazing environment of startups, of trying to push things and not being afraid of starting and failing companies, that then we decided to expand out from the university and then started IO three years ago.
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00:02:55.506And I want to come back to Estonia as well, because Estonia as a country gets huge representation on this podcast, and maybe you can help unlock why that is.
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00:03:02.432You're using fermentation to create these products, so the same process that makes beer and yogurt and stuff like that.
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00:03:09.512Can you talk about the process itself, how you're making this stuff, what you're using as feedstocks or like the inputs?
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00:03:26.826Yeah, so we have this very special yeast that, instead of making alcohol or making bread, it makes fats and oils, so just like very similar to palm oil or animal fats and like the cool, sustainable part of it.
00:03:26.826 -->
00:03:36.400Besides, the fermentation part is that we are using side streams from industries that we feed the yeast and it's produced fats and oil.
00:03:36.400 -->
00:03:39.947So we're trying to make it like a circular economy process.
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00:03:51.596So when you say a very special yeast, this means that you have, through your research, identified a particular yeast that does this, or I mean, maybe talk to us a bit about the world of yeasts.
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00:03:52.861There are different ones out there.
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00:03:54.969It's not all yeasts are the same.
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00:04:02.139There are different strains of it, and so how did you isolate and identify this one that works particularly well for fats and oils?
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00:04:09.953Yeah, there's like a very vast diversity of yeast doing pretty amazing things out there.
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00:04:31.091So this one I didn't isolate myself, but I took it from a bank of microbes and then I saw its industrial potential and then, as all these environments where you have this scale up or you're using side streams, let's say it requires a very tolerant microbe.
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00:04:55.881So, like my work as a scientist is starting by making this microbe even more tolerant so it can keep very high yields and production, even in a thousand cubic meters or 100 cubic meters, and also by being able to keep this ability of turning side streams, because they're not like just pure sugar or just pure molasses.
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00:05:00.509It really requires the yeast to be very resistant.
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00:05:07.909And is the company a direct outcome or output of the scientific work you were doing, of your studies?
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00:05:09.793Yes, most of it.
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00:05:21.536I would say yes, of course, after we got into contact with investors and we start being like, let's say, a more professional company and not just two lost scientists trying to make business.
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00:05:29.865Of course, some ideas have pivoted and got stronger, but I would say 99% is still about our research.
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00:05:31.52699% is still about our research.
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00:05:34.389Let's stick with the inputs, the feedstocks.
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00:05:37.450You mentioned that this is like agricultural side streams.
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00:05:40.553What are they specifically and how do you capture them?
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00:05:42.034Or I mean, are you buying them?
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00:05:43.355Are you getting paid to take them?
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00:05:56.579So it depends on the type of substrate and we are trying to be as agnostic as possible, because our business model will be one of them will be licensing, because our business model will be one of them will be licensing.
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00:05:58.161So we need to.
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00:06:02.988Our technology needs to be versatile to reach any company that is interested in valorizing their side streams.
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00:06:08.031Currently, we have worked with wood sugars.
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00:06:21.814So in Estonia there is a huge partner company called Fibano, where they have this amazing technology to extract sugars from sawdust, so we are using the sugars from this leftover sawdust.
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00:06:28.802We can work with leftovers from beverage industry, like tea leaves, brewer, spent grain.
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00:06:37.274We have worked with the side streams from bakery industries, so leftover bread, for example, which is a huge amount that they have.
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00:06:47.079We can work with molasses as well, very well, also from dairy industry, so whey or lactose permate.
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00:06:58.754So it's a very wide range, and we have been also now tackling some side streams from corn and from confectionery industry.
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00:07:04.411Okay, so it sounds like it's mainly from the food industry, except perhaps for wood.
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00:07:13.125How do you kind of like make sure that the inputs are consistent, are clean, Like how do you manage that process?
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00:07:13.928Yes.
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00:07:21.827So as most of them, as you said, comes from food industry, then it's easier to have, let's say, this food grade product.
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00:07:30.331So of course, when we receive the side stream, we process it to remove any other type of microbes.
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00:07:39.485So we are sure that only our microbe is present and basically that's mostly what we process.
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00:08:00.269And then we have this very nice team of scientists and we managed to build in-house these high throughput platforms since changing the yeast to trying new side streams, and we can do it using very little amount of substrate.
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00:08:07.598So 10 milliliters is already enough for us to start doing all our assessment of their viability.
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00:08:12.932The value chain then starts with these food companies and agri-food.
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00:08:24.211Then you have customers that you're potentially selling this to as end consumers and you also have licensees potentially right, as you said, you want to license the technology to have on site somewhere.
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00:08:27.629If someone were to say who's your customer, how would you answer that?
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00:08:29.767And is it multiple types of customers?
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00:08:32.283Yes, we're mainly B2B.
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00:08:48.673We're focusing on either providing our fats and oils as an ingredient, but we understand that having one huge factory somewhere and then transporting the ingredient to the world is not sustainable.
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00:08:59.416So that's why we have this licensing model, where it's best in terms of CO2 mitigation to have our technology closer to the substrate.
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00:09:10.091So in a perfect world, a couple of years from now, maybe you have this like industrial scale bakery that's producing their own plant-based butter at the same time through fermentation.
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00:09:14.235Exactly or also using in the bread formulation.
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00:09:23.407So it's possible to substitute rapeseed oil, for example, or palm oil in bread production by using our ingredients.
00:09:23.969 -->
00:09:26.517And how are the ingredients performing now?
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00:09:36.423So you probably have like more of the bench scale right now, but how would this compare to like a plant oil or a seed oil or a lard or something like that?
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00:09:48.086So we have an in-house chef and also scientists in the product development and they have been doing very amazing recipes.
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00:09:52.971So the product performed very well in the bakery.
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00:10:16.321So they have done several different types of breads, cookies, chocolate we had a pretty amazing results with chocolate in in a way of alternative, not only to the butter part but also to the cacao part, because one of our products has roasted flavor and this was very interesting for us.
00:10:16.321 -->
00:10:24.815So also in the alternative meat space, we have been developing alternative dairy as well.
00:10:24.815 -->
00:10:32.770So it's very versatile and we have been having very, very good results on that.
00:10:32.770 -->
00:10:33.992And also in cosmetics.
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00:10:48.276We also have a cosmetic specialist and she has been working also in developing moisturizers, lip balms and creams or moisturizer for hair.
00:10:48.276 -->
00:10:49.982So very versatile, I would say.
00:10:49.982 -->
00:10:50.804So very versatile, I would say.
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00:10:58.095I think there's a huge benefit for when a company can justify for business reasons having an in-house chef.
00:11:03.879 -->
00:11:07.163There's probably lots of fringe benefits to that as well, especially if one of your products that you're testing is chocolate.
00:11:07.163 -->
00:11:11.027Yes, and it's pretty cool that he has a very diverse background.
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00:11:20.437So he's a Japanese descendant, born in Canada, came to Estonia and is cooking this Nordic cuisine.
00:11:20.437 -->
00:11:25.990So he's done it all and he has a very scientific mind.
00:11:25.990 -->
00:11:34.370So he doesn't know, but he always writes down recipes, results, so we always tell him that he's a scientist in his heart.
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00:11:40.733The old Japan, Canada, Estonia route in order to cook Nordic food Classic.
00:11:40.733 -->
00:11:43.689What's wrong with the fats and oils that we use right now?
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00:11:55.891So if I think of like palm oil lard For our listeners, who love some palm oil and love lard, what should they know about the environmental impacts of these products or health as well?
00:11:56.312 -->
00:12:00.420Yeah Well, so let's start with animal farming.
00:12:00.420 -->
00:12:07.233So I guess everyone is aware that they are huge contributors to CO2 deforestation.
00:12:07.233 -->
00:12:19.227Well, I'm from Brazil and I know that big chunks of Amazonia is being cut down for animal farming illegally, and this has been happening in several different countries.
00:12:19.227 -->
00:12:25.785Also, palm oil the need for large areas for cultivation.
00:12:25.785 -->
00:12:33.629It's also taking down large chunks of rainforests or other natural, let's say, forests in each country.
00:12:33.629 -->
00:12:46.474So, animal farming, lots of CO2, lots of area, lots of water, and while we're using plantations, it's also taking a toll in the diversity and deforestation.
00:12:47.000 -->
00:12:48.720And so that's from the environmental standpoint.
00:12:48.720 -->
00:12:53.361Can you talk a little bit about kind of the nutritional standpoint standpoint?
00:12:53.361 -->
00:12:55.025Can you talk a little bit about kind of the nutritional standpoint?
00:12:55.025 -->
00:12:58.833Are your products total exact kind of analogs to this from a nutritional profile, or are they better?
00:12:59.280 -->
00:13:11.270Yeah, so so far, in order to like to claim that our products are healthier, we're still conducting in-house and outsourcing, like all these tests that we need.
00:13:11.270 -->
00:13:26.384But we have, according to their chemical compositions and how much we are adding in the food formulations, we have a good idea that they have nutritional benefits.
00:13:26.384 -->
00:13:49.268So, for example, they increase the amount of fibers, proteins and decreasing the caloric level because they can perform as a fat, but with more increased benefits because it's the whole yeast, for example, and we know that we do not have any trans fats in our profile.
00:13:49.268 -->
00:13:59.968And, of course, in the pipeline of our new products, we are also developing oils that are richer in omega-3 antioxidants.
00:13:59.968 -->
00:14:08.451So by the chemistry, we can expect that they will have more nutritional effect, but I cannot claim before we can perform this.
00:14:08.820 -->
00:14:10.847No footnotes required for this podcast.
00:14:10.847 -->
00:14:25.991Yes, as you mentioned, you're originally from Brazil and you're a scientist in Brazil, moved to I mean, I'll say Scandinavia broadly, because you weren't just in Estonia, continued your academic career there and then founded IO.
00:14:25.991 -->
00:14:34.096Can you talk a little bit just about what that journey was, both geographically but also the switch from academic to founder?
00:14:34.497 -->
00:14:37.785yes, well, the first time I saw is knowing my life.
00:14:37.785 -->
00:14:39.088I was 30 years old.
00:14:39.088 -->
00:14:48.006I left the airport and it was super snowy outside and I was like a kid touching there's no, secretly tasting.
00:14:48.006 -->
00:14:49.508There's no, not from the ground.
00:14:50.789 -->
00:14:53.673And you're wondering why it's so dark at 2.30 PM.
00:14:54.214 -->
00:15:01.009Yes, yes, so, culturally and geographically, I guess it was a 60 degrees difference.
00:15:01.009 -->
00:15:05.701So Brazil was 40 minus 20 where I landed first.
00:15:05.701 -->
00:15:09.107But yes, I was a scientist in Brazil.
00:15:09.107 -->
00:15:12.171I finished my PhD in 2016.
00:15:12.171 -->
00:15:18.908And it was exactly when I was not very happy with the political situation that I started there.
00:15:18.908 -->
00:15:25.345Well, when certain type of people get into power, we know that they will deny science.
00:15:25.345 -->
00:15:30.014They will make your country go 50 years or a hundred back.
00:15:30.440 -->
00:15:31.523Yeah, in the back.
00:15:31.683 -->
00:15:33.788So yeah, especially for science.
00:15:33.788 -->
00:15:44.704So I decided to move to Europe and then I started searching for positions around Europe and then, well, I found this position in Estonia.
00:15:44.704 -->
00:15:49.221That pretty much was what I liked to do, and I was good at doing so.
00:15:49.221 -->
00:16:06.105By a process synthetic biology I applied, and then one month later I entered the plane and then I got there, Just had a few times for some Googling to see how Estonia was after the Soviet Union Seemed okay.
00:16:06.105 -->
00:16:17.471And then now it's been eight years that I'm there and it's a pretty cool place, and before Estonia I would never think about becoming a founder.
00:16:17.471 -->
00:16:19.427I think it's the bug they have here.
00:16:20.220 -->
00:16:23.831More unicorns per capita, I think, than any other place in the world.
00:16:23.831 -->
00:16:36.385The entire population of Estonia is about the same as the city of Milan and I mean, even if I just look at this podcast, I've had, you know, a number of people from Estonia on here.
00:16:36.385 -->
00:16:37.187Why do you think that?
00:16:37.187 -->
00:16:42.730So, when you say you know you never would have considered becoming a founder if it weren't for Estonia, why do you think that is?
00:16:43.379 -->
00:16:57.160So, as I said, like during my whole time just being as a scientist, no one showed me that, besides doing really great science, you can also think and not be afraid to start something, some startup.
00:16:57.160 -->
00:17:56.194And in Estonia, besides this amazing environment where you can easily just grab a coffee with any other founder or an investor, so people are very open and reachable and the whole government and the universities here.
00:17:56.194 -->
00:17:58.822They have this structure that fosters this.
00:17:58.822 -->
00:18:03.413So they bring for example, we were in the university they brought investors.
00:18:03.413 -->
00:18:08.071Investors talked oh you have a really nice idea, why don't you start a company?
00:18:08.071 -->
00:18:13.062And then you talk with other founders and then they were like, yes, just open it.
00:18:13.062 -->
00:18:14.226If you fail, you fail.
00:18:14.226 -->
00:18:14.466You fail.
00:18:14.487 -->
00:18:20.087It's investors money, not yours as an investor, I find that terrifying.
00:18:20.087 -->
00:18:21.549But yeah, I can see why.
00:18:22.771 -->
00:18:29.040I can see why that's good for founders but, like it gives you the courage because as a scientist, you're so afraid of failing.
00:18:29.040 -->
00:18:32.326But uh, you just learn not to be afraid.
00:18:32.326 -->
00:18:36.673It's's some people they have, I don't know, they're in their fifth startup.
00:18:38.134 -->
00:18:56.724Yeah, I mean, I would imagine that, also, as a scientist, you, like, you need these levels of exactness and perfection or, like you know, these assurances, whereas in the startup world, as you've surely discovered, it's kind of like, I mean, you're, you're just, you know, walking in the dark.
00:18:56.724 -->
00:18:59.676Every you can see maybe a meter in front of you, and that's it.
00:18:59.876 -->
00:19:16.475Yeah, definitely, and I think you learn to be bolder, I would say, in this startup community and also the government has several grants, they have several accelerators or they really give support and they really want the startups to be successful here.
00:19:16.836 -->
00:19:20.303You've talked a lot about on the topic of women in STEM.
00:19:20.303 -->
00:19:35.866So science, technology, engineering and math, if I remember the acronym correctly and some of the challenges that you faced there, and I came across the term this term, which I now totally love and will use in the future the Scully effect.
00:19:35.866 -->
00:19:40.646Can you talk a bit about what that is and to what extent you're a product of it?
00:19:41.355 -->
00:19:54.500Yes, so I'm a very lucky person that when I was like 10 years old or like nine eight person, that when I was like 10 years old or like nine, eight, so I was, I was always like cinema geek addicted girl.
00:19:54.520 -->
00:20:09.730And then I always felt, even though I was a kid, I always felt there was a lack of strong female characters, so there were not like not many heroes or like they were mostly romantic partners in the movie.
00:20:09.730 -->
00:20:24.309And then I think it was 93 or 94, we had the DX Files, this TV show where Scully is this FBI agent who has a PhD or two, I don't remember.
00:20:24.309 -->
00:20:38.040I think she has, I think, two PhDs and she's this scientist that also kicks ass and she's a very strong character and is portrayed by Gillian Anderson and this type of representation.
00:20:38.040 -->
00:20:58.615Years later, a decade later, there was some study and that after this character, the amount of females going to STEM increased a lot and they saw that this character, Scully, was one that pushed them or encouraged them or made them see the amazing part of STEM and they went.
00:20:58.615 -->
00:21:04.468That's why this is the Scully effect and I'm a very proud part of it.
00:21:04.468 -->
00:21:08.865Gillian Anderson, if you ever listen to this podcast, please hug me.
00:21:09.481 -->
00:21:11.136Oh yeah, she's a regular listener.
00:21:11.136 -->
00:21:15.865Yeah, I never missed an episode of it as a kid.
00:21:15.865 -->
00:21:24.176I totally love the X-Files and if there are any Gen Z listeners, stop watching Friends and start watching the X-Files Much, much better television.
00:21:24.176 -->
00:21:31.561Yes, you've also been very vocal about the need for startup founders to take care of themselves and protect their mental health.
00:21:31.561 -->
00:21:34.222Why do you feel the need to speak up about that topic?
00:21:35.057 -->
00:21:55.103I think most people, and including me in the beginning we think that mental health, like you, have to be strong, like all the time, and like taking care of mental health or saying that you are not feeling okay, I'm feeling overwhelmed, this is a sign of weakness, and it's not.
00:21:55.103 -->
00:22:04.224It's like you cannot perform well if your mindset is not there as well, if your mental health is not okay.
00:22:04.224 -->
00:22:07.057And this is not only to founders, I mean to everyone.
00:22:07.057 -->
00:22:11.727Like, if you're tired, like you cannot push it, just take a break.
00:22:11.727 -->
00:22:16.125Just if you feel anxious, talk to a therapist.
00:22:16.125 -->
00:22:25.148Because it's very common you have so much to do like so much to achieve, so much pressure everywhere to succeed.
00:22:25.994 -->
00:22:40.658And I think in the beginning, for me, the transition to scientist, to like to entrepreneurship it was not my skin, so this process of transitioning to this skin was super, brought me a lot of anxiety.
00:22:40.658 -->
00:22:45.495Until my best friend she told me look, you're not normal, go talk to a therapist.
00:22:45.495 -->
00:22:46.278You should.
00:22:46.278 -->
00:22:51.438You're overworked, you're overly tired, you're not like laughing anymore.
00:22:51.438 -->
00:22:57.937And then it's been two years, I'm in therapy and I also have been learning to put boundaries.
00:22:57.937 -->
00:23:00.422So I try every day.
00:23:00.422 -->
00:23:06.437I work from eight in the morning to six, then I stop, I close my computer.
00:23:06.437 -->
00:23:07.079It doesn't matter.
00:23:07.079 -->
00:23:14.990Of course there are some days that you actually need, but I try to make it a really rare exception, or weekends.
00:23:14.990 -->
00:23:22.848I do not work anymore unless it's like a matter of life or death, but I think it's good to put boundaries.
00:23:23.355 -->
00:23:26.850I think that's really good advice for founders who are listening as well.
00:23:26.850 -->
00:23:45.458And culturally, we do ourselves no favors because, whether it's social media or LinkedIn or, I don't know, fast Company and Wired, you kind of see these like you know, everyone is making it look so easy and it's kind of like oh, I had this idea, I started it and now I'm a billionaire and you know that's, of course, not the usual way of things.
00:23:45.458 -->
00:24:06.023So being able to talk frankly and honestly, founder to founder out there, I think is really important, and I always tell you know I'm a founder by background and I always tell founders to like make sure you have a community of other founders that you can talk to and that you can be open to, because it's not, you know, your friends might not understand, your partner or family might not understand your like.
00:24:06.023 -->
00:24:09.132Vc investors are probably not the people to talk to about this.
00:24:09.132 -->
00:24:16.819It's other founders who have been through it, who are going through it, who are the best kind of sounding boards and friends to talk with this stuff about.
00:24:17.781 -->
00:24:21.048You have recently closed a round at IO, a funding round.
00:24:21.048 -->
00:24:22.397Congratulations on that.
00:24:22.397 -->
00:24:25.023What does the year ahead look like?
00:24:25.023 -->
00:24:25.765Are you building up?
00:24:25.765 -->
00:24:26.487Are you hiring?
00:24:26.487 -->
00:24:27.456What are you going to spend the money on?
00:24:28.318 -->
00:24:32.307I always tell investors this joke that I'm going to run away to Brazil with their money.
00:24:32.307 -->
00:24:35.500Now they're not very happy.
00:24:35.500 -->
00:24:47.001Too late now, yeah, and Netflix is going to make a documentary about me no, but I seriously speaking now.
00:24:47.001 -->
00:24:49.387So I think now it's time.
00:24:49.387 -->
00:25:02.451We have been growing exponentially, but now I think it's this inflection point where we really need to be like this hog stick and outperform the first three years.
00:25:03.355 -->
00:25:10.423So with this round, we have a two year runaway and very bold plans.
00:25:10.423 -->
00:25:20.803So one of them is to be in the market, at least for cosmetics, so regulatory barriers are more feasible.
00:25:20.803 -->
00:25:34.430But we also, by the end of 2026, we want to have all the permits for this novel food in different countries and to start having so we can start actually licensing our technology.
00:25:34.430 -->
00:25:41.394So basically, this is our goals and, of course, like we'll fundraise in two years.
00:25:41.394 -->
00:25:52.004So, investors, please let's start flirting, and we're always interested in bright people and also, like, excited about this topic.
00:25:52.004 -->
00:26:01.784So if also you are interested in working at IO, please also reach us and even if we don't have a position right now, we will call back.
00:26:02.305 -->
00:26:02.768That's great.
00:26:02.768 -->
00:26:10.656So investors with long attention spans, bright people who are interested in the space, and probably potential customers as well, should reach out to you.
00:26:10.656 -->
00:26:15.775Yes, great, I'll, as always, put your contact information in the show notes.
00:26:15.775 -->
00:26:17.339Nemailla, it's super cool what you're doing.
00:26:17.339 -->
00:26:18.522Thanks a lot for talking today.
00:26:18.863 -->
00:26:20.516Yeah, thanks a lot, it was a pleasure.
00:26:22.339 -->
00:26:24.685Thanks for listening to another Climate Tech Podcast.
00:26:24.685 -->
00:26:28.478It would mean a lot if you would subscribe, rate and share this podcast.
00:26:28.478 -->
00:26:35.589Get in touch anytime with tips and guest recommendations at hello at climatetechpodcom.
00:26:35.589 -->
00:26:38.923Find me, ryan Grant Little, on LinkedIn.
00:26:38.923 -->
00:26:41.601I'll be back with another episode next week.
00:26:41.601 -->
00:26:42.704Bye for now.
