The Anxious Avoidant Trap

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Hello and welcome to Until We Rise.
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I'm your host, Christine Seidel, and today we have one of our newer therapists, Mariana Bohm, to come and discuss some fun topics with us today.
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So welcome, Mariana.
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So good to see you.
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Thanks.
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If it's okay with you, can I read a little bio about you so all of our listeners can kind of get to know who you are and the work that you do?
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So let me tell you a little bit about Marianna.
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Mariana is an associate professional counselor who works with children and young adults navigating externalizing behaviors.
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This may look like difficulties in specific environments such as school and home, relationship challenges, or patterns of behavior that people are looking to shift.
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In her work, she focuses on trust and connection as a foundation for growth.
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Mariana's optimism and empathic compassion have allowed her to specialize in working with boys and young men to find ways to communicate their needs and connect with others that align with their natural ways of life.
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I love that.
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Thank you for joining us.
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And I have to say, like Marianna is amazing with young men.
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I really love just watching her uh interact with them, especially in and out of the therapeutic setting.
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So she's also with our little guys.
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So thank you.
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Thank you.
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Yeah, absolutely.
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So Marianna is coming to talk with us today, specifically about some additional topics of attachment.
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You know how much we love attachment here.
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And so we really it really is kind of the foundation of a lot of the work that we do here as therapists.
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But today we specifically want to talk about the very common topic of the anxious and avoidant dynamic, which in so many, I mean, I can't I can't think of a day that goes by in my therapeutic work that I don't have some client kind of presenting with this type of dynamic in their lives, especially if you do any relational work.
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So we hear so much about the anxious avoidant dance.
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Yeah.
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Right?
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But what what do you want to kind of talk about in terms of that dance?
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You know, what are we really looking at when we see these anxious avoidant dynamics play out in kind of a turbulent way, so to speak?
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Yeah, of course.
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And first off, thanks for having me.
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Honor to be here, you know, as a special guest.
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Absolutely.
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Um, and I think kind of the the term dance is its very perfect form for what we call it.
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Um, it's also sometimes called a trap, which I feel like semantics are always important.
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They are.
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And when you hear the word trap, I don't know about you, but oftentimes I think like the mouse trap, it's so obvious you see it coming, and you're like, oh my goodness, look out.
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Yes.
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Um, but in life, it's it's not actually like that.
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In reality, it's more of kind of like that that chair at your grandparents' house or something.
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It's so comfortable, it's there every time, and you're like, oh, I'm just gonna take a load off and sit in it with no hesitancy, and you all of a sudden your butt's on the floor and you're like, I need help getting out.
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I am trapped.
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Trapped.
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Yeah.
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That definitely is a good way of kind of separating, you know.
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I think we also want to recognize like not everybody is able to come into this world of relationships with a secure attachment.
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So we really are on a spectrum of some facet of attachment wounding, whether we're, you know, a little bit anxious but really working towards secure, or a little bit avoidant, working towards secure.
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But I think trap is such a great word to use, the anxious avoidant trap, because that's really recognizing wait a minute.
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Like I'm stuck, I don't want to be here.
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I don't mind dancing, but I definitely don't want to be trapped.
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That's not a good place to be at all.
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So tell me, what is the anxious avoidant trap really?
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Like, what does this look like in relational dynamics?
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Yeah, yeah, that's a really good place to start, honestly.
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Um, and it kind of needs this moment of well, what even is like anxious versus avoidant, which um kind of that anxious side is you're moving towards something, right?
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And you are seeking connection because you're really afraid of abandonment.
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Yeah.
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Yeah.
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Whereas on that avoidance side, it's you're moving away because you're afraid to lose your independence and you are seeking reliability.
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Yeah.
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Yeah.
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So kind of that's where the dance part comes in of we're moving in opposite directions, but somehow like melding together to almost like point out each other's biggest fears.
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Yeah.
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Yeah.
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So in terms of like the anxious individual, what is kind of going on with them versus the avoidant individual?
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What specifically is are they each experiencing in the relationship?
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Yeah.
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So the that anxious side, it's that need for connection, right?
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So they are seeking out, I need connection and I need it now.
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I need reassurance and I need to know that whoever I've deemed my partner is here and they are with me, and that's it.
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Yeah.
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So that may look like, oh, I'm gonna send a couple of texts throughout the day, and maybe one person's version of a couple is like a hundred, another person's version of a couple is like 20.
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But it's like that that need for connection.
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So sending that text for them is meeting that need of I am feeling connected because I sent that text, because I called them, because I showed up on their front porch with a box of chocolate.
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I feel connected.
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Yeah.
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Because they're so they're they're afraid to be abandoned.
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Yeah, yeah.
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To be alone and to uh not have that external source of validation.
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Yeah.
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So they're really kind of pursuing, yes, you know, sometimes even chasing this need for reconnection or validation.
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What is the avoidant kind of experiencing or demonstrating in that dance slash trap once it starts getting the trap part?
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Yeah.
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Um, it's almost like the the perfect opposite.
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So they are really seeking reliability.
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And somewhere along the way, they have learned others around me are not reliable.
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I don't know if I can really trust them.
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I don't know if they're consistent.
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I know I am consistent.
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I know I am reliable.
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So then that becomes that kind of turning inward and moving away and seeking that independence because they're needing reliability.
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So it's playing into that fear a little bit of instead of losing my independence, I will just not associate with others because that feels better.
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It feels safer to me.
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Yeah, and I think that like in some of the past conversations we've had, I think oftentimes the anxious, the more anxious attachment person looks more like an externalizer.
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Like they are externally, you know, showing a level of discomfort out of a fear of abandonment or rejection or whatever, right?
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So I externally need others to give me validation or whatnot.
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And the avoidant tends to be more of that internalizer.
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You know, I can, you know, do this all on my own.
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I don't need anybody else.
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When other people are seeking, you know, emotional connection with me, that feels unsafe.
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Oftentimes those are the you know, people who in childhood didn't have emotional needs met.
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So like that feels really weird and like a little bit of like suffocating.
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I'm so used to just relying on myself and you know, I can I can meet all of my needs my on my own.
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So I think that that trap you know, narrative or that trap, like you know, example is so important because it really is when each person is having their own experience based upon a fear, right?
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So tell me a little bit about like what does that look like somatically?
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So within the body, right?
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So like we talked about anxious being very, you know, kind of um well, anxious and a little dysregulated, and the avoidant looking kind of cool and aloof.
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Yes, both of those clearly the nervous system is not actually like in a in a homeostasis state that we would consider calm and and congruent.
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So tell me what does like the nervous system look like and what do people experience somatically, you know, when they are in that anxious state.
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Yeah, yeah.
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It's kind of a mix between like same but different almost.
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So um, if we start with just kind of, which like in somatic processing, you really like dial into what's happening in my body right now.
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Yeah.
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So if we're dialed into that, it's maybe we feel that racing heart.
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That can happen in an anxious or an avoidant person.
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You can have that racing heart.
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It's more so, okay.
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If I am a person who maybe attaches more anxiously, I have this racing heart.
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What does my racing heart feel like?
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Does it feel like it's like a really fast pitter patter because I feel somebody slipping away from me?
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Oh, I feel them slipping away.
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What do I need to ensure they don't slip away?
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Oh, what I need to do is I need to, I need to show up at their house.
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Oh, what I need to do is I need to call them right now.
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I love that.
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Like, what can I do to make sure they don't?
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Yes, yeah.
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Yes.
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And then on that flip side, if we just stick it with that um analogy of like we've got a racing heart for the avoidant person, they may be experiencing, okay, I've got this racing heart because I'm feeling all this pressure placed upon me.
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And oh my goodness, they they're at my house right now, and I was just gonna have the next four days to be by myself because I don't need anybody because I am independent, and this is making me feel like I need them.
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I'm losing my independence.
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Oh my goodness, I need to slam the door shut and block their phone number.
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I'll text them in a week.
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Yeah, yeah.
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So I I like that you said same but different, right?
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Like because that maybe that bid for connection starts just dysregulating the nervous system to a point of like the beating heart or like the looping of thoughts, yeah, right.
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And I think that that's really important to recognize like the somatics are really the emotions showing up in a physiological way.
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And even though the avoidant may look aloof and like doesn't need anybody, they're still feeling a sense of dysregulation.
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For sure.
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100%.
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Yeah, because it's the I feel like the avoidant is so um it's such like a juicy attachment style almost because it does give off.
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Oh, I don't even need to attach.
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I'm okay, I'm fine.
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But like deep down, it's that they've tried to attach and their needs weren't met and they weren't reliable or they weren't consistent, which left them in a state of survival.
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Yeah.
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Which is really like all that we are trying to do.
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All of us as people are just trying to survive.
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We've never done this before.
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Yeah, exactly.
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So for our first go around, right?
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It's the first time.
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So then they're like, oh my goodness, I feel like my needs weren't met.
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Yeah.
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I can meet them myself though, and then I don't have to feel let down or disappointed or like somebody wasn't there for me.
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So it's uh it's like it's so interesting because it's like they they want the attachment, it's just so scary.
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It is so scary, yeah.
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So like that, the somatics of fear is really the dysregulation.
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So like that's a great indicator for our listeners.
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Like, yeah, if you are trying to come into a place of connection, whether you're making the bid for connection, or you are aware that others are seeking connection and you genuinely want a connection, but it starts dysregulating you.
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That somatic experience is a great indicator then.
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You might be falling falling into this trap, right?
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Yeah, you're sinking into Nana and Papa's chair.
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So tell me, what does you know, like calm attachment really look like, right?
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Because now we're gonna get into this whole like, yes, but we have great chemistry.
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We have a roller coaster, things are so fashioning.
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Yeah, like I can't stand them for months, and then the next moment, like we can't keep our hands off each other.
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Like it must be love, right?
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Exactly.
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It must be love, surely, right?
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Because what else are you talking about?
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Right?
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Yeah, it's like couldn't that just be chemistry?
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Right.
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They're I say, Oh, yeah, right.
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That's said all the time.
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Yeah, yeah.
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So it's that um that it's like the the can't eat, can't sleep type of love, and it's that's the chemistry, you know?
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Like, yeah, you need kind of that that tug towards that person, that's very important, or else you're just friends, right?
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Then that's kind of the separator aspect.
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Um, so it's kind of this idea of these like activation pieces, right?
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That's almost puts us on a roller coaster.
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Um, usually when people get on a roller coaster, they're not saying, I feel so safe, I feel so comfortable, this is predictable.
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Instead, they're like, Okay, I'm afraid, but this is fun.
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I like this, a rush, and then it's over, and then you're like, huh, I'll do it again and again.
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Yeah, yeah, and kind of moving more into that calm and comfortable energy where it's I use a lot of analogies.
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Right, yeah, we like those.
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Exactly.
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Um it's kind of more like uh a cross-country train ride where you get on at a stop, you know where you're getting on, you know where you're getting off, you know your stops in between, you have your itinerary, you know where the meal cart is, you know where your bedroom is.
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Everything is predictable, everything's comfortable, and you have that ability to sit and look ahead and say, Okay, I don't know what Colorado stop has to offer, but I know I'm stopping in Colorado, and at least that feels safe to me.
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Yeah, yeah.
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So kind of like understanding that it's a journey, yeah, you know, and that you're not like every single stop has to be like the best stop ever, you know, that you're open and willing to see like what there is to experience in this moment.
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Yeah.
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So and you know, a lot of times I like, and I and I think the anxious and then also kind of like the anxious avoidant combination, which is also called disorganized, tend to really fall into that chemistry confusion because they get into such a push-pull, oftentimes with avoidance, you know, because you know, it can start becoming volatile, right?
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Like the anxious is not only just willing to kind of like pursue and be like, look, here I am with flowers.
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It's like if I'm not getting my needs met, if I'm not getting that validation, then I'm gonna start attacking.
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I'm gonna up it.
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I'm gonna up the annie, I'm gonna turn the stove up.
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Yeah, yeah.
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So, and and then hopefully what I say will trigger something in you to give me my needs, right?
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So it can become very volatile, where with avoidance, you know, they might start doing things like ignoring you, right?
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And like leaving you on red, and then like unfollowing you, right?
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Like ways to punish you that feels very um isolating and abandoning, but you know, that anxious and the anxious avoidant disorganized attachment really do fall into that chemistry complication.
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And what I like to tell a lot of my clients is like, you know, we're not seeking just chemistry, right?
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And that's kind of hard.
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It's hard for the anxious because they're like, it feels so good.
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Because it they feel chosen if their needs are messed met in that moment.
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So it can be really, you know, can kind of gasp at you a little bit, right?
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Right, and so you feel like, oh, my needs are being met.
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So they really love the chemistry, yeah, but there's also this level of compatibility that feels really soft, especially for the avoidant.
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Like, here's a gentle we like way to expose myself to others meeting my need that feels very comfortable for me to like slowly and softly go into connection with people, but neither one by themselves is really what we're seeking in in healthy relationships.
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What we want is that connection, which is like I can go on this journey with my partner.
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Some moments are like the wow moments, like that chemistry, right?
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And some moments are like, oh, you know, like that's a nice, like, you know, meadow that we're passing through.
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But like, you know, they're not mountains, and that's okay.
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It's a different, it's a different experience within the relationship.
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And you really to have like healthy connection, you need that variety.
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And it's good, it's not gonna happen in, you know, every single week, you're not gonna have all of that.
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There are seasons within a relationship, but a calm, regulated nervous system in a relationship understands the need for both and understands the boundaries that need to be around both too.
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Because if one partner is constantly seeking that high and that chemistry and that passion, and the other partner is only seeking compatibility and like comfort, yeah, then you're gonna end up having a lot of disagreements around unmet needs.
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Yes, yes, yes.
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Which we oftentimes wanna we want our other people to meet our needs versus really becoming aware of like what's going on within us.
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Right.
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So can you speak a little bit to what the internal narratives are with like um the anxious attachment and the avoidant attachment, you know, for somebody who's like, I don't know what I am, I just know and a lot of people, you know, listen, they come to therapy oftentimes that are like, I'm this, and I'm like, well, let's unpack that a little bit.
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Right, right.
00:17:25.279 --> 00:17:27.119
So, you know, again, we're on a spectrum, right?
00:17:27.200 --> 00:17:32.079
We can we can have little bits and pieces, you know, as we do our our internal work.
00:17:32.160 --> 00:17:46.319
But tell me a little bit of what, and and you gave us a little bit more insight, but can you go a little bit deeper into like what are these internal narratives that begin for the anxious and the avoidant, especially when they feel like their needs are not being met?
00:17:46.559 --> 00:17:46.880
Right.
00:17:47.039 --> 00:17:47.440
Yeah.
00:17:47.759 --> 00:17:53.759
The the anxious, it's a lot of what more can I do?
00:17:54.000 --> 00:18:03.279
Um, because if we because attachment style is formed within like first couple months of life, it's like very much something that's like we've got it from like day one, you know.
00:18:03.519 --> 00:18:03.680
Yeah.
00:18:03.759 --> 00:18:07.279
Um, and then it's cultivated by our environment and by our surroundings.
00:18:07.440 --> 00:18:12.319
We learn a behavior and that's how we will act until we learn something different.
00:18:12.480 --> 00:18:12.880
Yeah.
00:18:13.039 --> 00:18:18.720
Um, so for anxious people, they people that attach more anxiously, that's a nicer way to say it.
00:18:18.880 --> 00:18:23.039
Um they tend to figure out well, what more can I offer?
00:18:23.279 --> 00:18:31.759
If I'm not getting that reassurance that I'm looking for, I'm not getting that connection, surely if I do a little bit more, I'll get what I'm looking for.
00:18:32.079 --> 00:18:35.119
Um, which like in I do a lot of work with kids.
00:18:35.200 --> 00:18:38.720
So in kids, what that late look like is I'm looking for that connection with mom.
00:18:38.960 --> 00:18:39.839
I'm not getting it.
00:18:39.920 --> 00:18:46.079
I'm gonna throw a tantrum right now because I need connection and I'm not having that need.
00:18:46.160 --> 00:18:50.960
So if I do more, okay, my tantrum's not loud enough in Kroger right now, fine.
00:18:51.039 --> 00:18:52.240
I'll scream louder.
00:18:52.400 --> 00:18:55.839
Yeah, and then you're gonna give me my what I'm looking for, which is that connection.
00:18:56.400 --> 00:18:56.640
Yeah.
00:18:56.799 --> 00:19:06.640
And then in like couples and partners, it may be more of like, okay, I am not getting that connection met right now, so I am going to go to their house.
00:19:06.799 --> 00:19:10.799
I they haven't texted me all day, and I need that connection, I need that reassurance.
00:19:10.960 --> 00:19:12.480
I'm afraid that they're leaving me.
00:19:12.640 --> 00:19:14.240
Yeah, I'm gonna go to their house.
00:19:14.480 --> 00:19:18.799
Okay, um, going to their house, they weren't there, so let me look at their location there at work.
00:19:18.960 --> 00:19:19.839
I'll go to work.
00:19:20.079 --> 00:19:26.000
And so it's always kind of surely I can do a little bit more to get what I'm looking for.
00:19:26.160 --> 00:19:26.319
Yeah.
00:19:26.480 --> 00:19:26.720
Yeah.
00:19:26.799 --> 00:19:43.200
And I think that like, you know, we wanna recognize, and there's some other videos, you know, we can connect at the end of this to go into this a little bit more, but like that anxious attachment is really this uncertainty of how and when their needs are going to be met, you know.
00:19:43.279 --> 00:19:49.440
So it's almost like, you know, my partner can meet my needs sometimes, but other times not.
00:19:49.599 --> 00:19:52.960
So what do I need to do to get them met in that moment, right?
00:19:53.039 --> 00:19:59.759
So that's a child that was growing up that sometimes, you know, the parent was available to meet their needs and sometimes they were not.
00:20:00.160 --> 00:20:04.240
And so the child learned what can I do to get the needs met.
00:20:04.400 --> 00:20:10.240
And that tends to be more of that externalizing behavior throwing the tantrum, crying, whatever it is, right?
00:20:10.400 --> 00:20:18.400
And so that really is rooted in it's it's on me to get others to meet my needs, you know.
00:20:18.480 --> 00:20:21.680
And unfortunately, we're not always cognizant of that's what we're doing, right?
00:20:21.920 --> 00:20:22.079
Right.
00:20:22.559 --> 00:20:28.799
Oftentimes, like the anxious will focus on the other and be like, they're not doing this, they're not doing that, right?
00:20:29.440 --> 00:20:31.519
Even though I'm doing all these things, right?
00:20:31.680 --> 00:20:45.359
So that's really a lot of where that anxious attachment comes from is just this uncertainty of if and when and how, and then activating to try and constantly get that reassurance.
00:20:45.519 --> 00:20:45.680
Right.
00:20:46.000 --> 00:20:49.279
So tell me a little bit about the narratives of the avoidant.
00:20:49.440 --> 00:20:49.839
Yeah.
00:20:50.000 --> 00:20:57.519
It's it's funny that in both attachment styles, it's very much what can I do to meet my need.
00:20:57.680 --> 00:21:03.759
Um, so it like you said, Christine, in the anxious, it is that I can do more, let me do more.
00:21:04.240 --> 00:21:14.160
In the avoidant, they still have the what can I do, but it's more so because they were in an environment where they learned that others maybe are really not reliable.
00:21:14.319 --> 00:21:15.599
I can't trust them.
00:21:15.920 --> 00:21:18.720
And in turn, I will rely on me.
00:21:18.880 --> 00:21:20.079
I will rely on myself.
00:21:20.240 --> 00:21:22.319
I'm consistent, I know who I am.
00:21:22.480 --> 00:21:22.799
Yeah.
00:21:23.039 --> 00:21:27.759
And it's that kind of glorified independence almost.
00:21:27.839 --> 00:21:31.440
Um, because independence is one of those things that's very attractive.
00:21:31.680 --> 00:21:34.079
People enjoy when they see somebody who's independent.
00:21:34.160 --> 00:21:34.400
Yeah.
00:21:34.559 --> 00:21:40.720
And it's when it's kind of taken to that uptick of I'm independent and I am not ever gonna seek out any help.
00:21:40.880 --> 00:21:44.240
Then that's where it's like, oh, we get into that dance, we get into that chat.
00:21:44.480 --> 00:21:54.240
Because in the moments where you do need support, you need some help, maybe you're having a stressful time at work, your family life is going a little bit crazy, it's the holidays.
00:21:54.960 --> 00:21:57.440
You need somebody, you need you still need help.
00:21:57.519 --> 00:22:02.640
So then all the pressure starts weighing on you at the Starts building and you're like, I can only rely on me.
00:22:02.799 --> 00:22:03.359
Yeah.
00:22:03.680 --> 00:22:07.680
And causes you to push everybody else away to go into your little bubble.
00:22:07.759 --> 00:22:13.200
So then you're like, all right, I will meet my needs, my needs only, because that is what is safe, that's what's comfortable.
00:22:13.359 --> 00:22:15.359
I won't entertain meeting other needs right now.
00:22:15.519 --> 00:22:16.640
I don't have the bandwidth for it.
00:22:17.680 --> 00:22:23.279
Yeah, I think oftentimes like the avoidant tends to be like I'm all alone.
00:22:23.519 --> 00:22:23.839
Yes.
00:22:24.160 --> 00:22:30.240
You know, and and that I think that that's an interesting thing because then we see them like isolate, right?
00:22:30.480 --> 00:22:31.039
Withdraw.
00:22:31.119 --> 00:22:35.599
And I think, you know, for the anxious attachment, it's like I'm too much, right?
00:22:35.920 --> 00:22:40.000
And but then we see them really bring in that extra layer, right?
00:22:40.559 --> 00:22:46.319
And so that that does show us like this is something that is so rooted in those early years of life.
00:22:46.480 --> 00:22:50.240
I mean, we know even now, like even in utero, like we're building attachment.
00:22:50.319 --> 00:23:05.359
We work with a lot of um children of adoption, and knowing, you know, even if they're in a in a home that was you know open and warm and welcoming, like if there wasn't a healthy attachment in utero, they can still have some manifestations of attachment wounds, you know.
00:23:05.680 --> 00:23:16.559
So I think you know, that anxious is all is oftentimes like I'm too much, and other people like leave me or they're not there, and then the the you know, avoidant is like I'm all alone.
00:23:16.640 --> 00:23:20.000
Yeah, and I'm I you know I'm abandoned, I'm alone, you know.
00:23:20.319 --> 00:23:30.960
So how can somebody start you know, like recognizing these patterns?
00:23:31.119 --> 00:23:34.000
I mean, I know a lot of it is like familiarity, right?
00:23:34.160 --> 00:23:49.839
You know, so can can you speak a little bit to like we know this this comes from childhood, but like you know, somebody would tell, somebody could say, hey, you know, you keep chasing somebody or you keep running away, maybe you could try something new, but like that's such a difficult thing to do in those moments.
00:23:50.000 --> 00:23:56.799
So what is like what is it about the familiarity and the comfort of those patterns that continues to draw us in?
00:23:58.640 --> 00:24:12.480
Funny enough, I feel like it kind of goes back to this idea of homeostasis, which like plants have it, humans have it, every like living, breathing thing has this idea of homeostasis, which is I want to stay where I am.
00:24:12.640 --> 00:24:14.240
I am comfortable here.
00:24:14.559 --> 00:24:17.039
Change is scary, change looks different.
00:24:17.279 --> 00:24:24.960
Um, so for us, like maybe you go to like the same gas station every single time, and you're like, ah, this is safe and comfortable.
00:24:25.039 --> 00:24:30.559
And gas at that gas station maybe like four more dollars than the other one, but you're like, I don't care.
00:24:31.119 --> 00:24:32.079
I know this one.
00:24:32.160 --> 00:24:36.799
Yeah, and this is the safe one, which I think is this the big part there is it's the safety piece of it.
00:24:37.119 --> 00:24:44.160
And engaging in something else, it feels unsafe because it is unfamiliar that we don't know it.
00:24:44.240 --> 00:24:51.359
So, say an anxious person tries to, when they get this, this you know, the heart starts beating, they get those somatic feelings.
00:24:51.519 --> 00:24:53.359
Oh my goodness, I'm feeling them slip away.
00:24:53.440 --> 00:24:55.200
Yeah, I feel like they're abandoning me.
00:24:55.359 --> 00:25:08.559
Yeah, it feels unfamiliar, scary, and unsafe to sit in that feeling and process what do I need out of this versus what am I gonna do?
00:25:08.799 --> 00:25:09.839
Yeah, yeah.
00:25:10.000 --> 00:25:16.480
How do I need to be here with myself and be still and allow versus what do I need to do?
00:25:16.559 --> 00:25:18.640
That is oh man, working with anxious.
00:25:18.720 --> 00:25:23.759
That that is when they're like, I don't want to be, but what can I do?
00:25:23.839 --> 00:25:24.799
But I'm gonna do it anyway.
00:25:25.119 --> 00:25:26.559
But let me tell you what you can do.
00:25:26.799 --> 00:25:27.759
Be silly.
00:25:30.000 --> 00:25:30.160
Yeah.
00:25:30.319 --> 00:25:39.200
And I love, you know, like bringing up that homeostasis and like the ego doesn't know what's good or bad for us, it only knows what's familiar and it wants to stay in that neuropathway.
00:25:39.599 --> 00:25:53.599
What I love about being a therapist now is like so much what we're learning about neuroplasticity and the ability to really like develop new ways of thinking and being and heal through the wounds of attachment.
00:25:53.680 --> 00:25:57.519
You know, that's that's so much of the work we do here starts there.
00:25:57.599 --> 00:25:57.759
Yes.
00:25:58.000 --> 00:26:08.000
Even when we work with adults and couples, is like let's go back to like where was this belief pattern formed and really educating clients that like we can change that.
00:26:08.079 --> 00:26:08.319
Yeah.
00:26:08.559 --> 00:26:08.799
Yeah.
00:26:08.880 --> 00:26:11.359
Some people have been like, oh, this is just the way that I am.
00:26:11.599 --> 00:26:16.400
And it's like, no, we have neuroplasticity, our brain can create new neuropathways.
00:26:16.559 --> 00:26:17.680
Like, let's do this.
00:26:18.480 --> 00:26:20.160
So, where can we start?
00:26:20.240 --> 00:26:30.079
Like, what are the steps that some people can take to start working on recognizing attachment, wounding, and doing things differently?
00:26:30.319 --> 00:26:30.960
Yeah.
00:26:31.440 --> 00:26:34.319
But I'm sorry, anxious people, we already touched on it a little.
00:26:34.640 --> 00:26:48.799
But it's just being like step number one is just like to be and to just like look around to process if if you're having those questions of I don't know which camp I fall in, I don't know if I hang out more with avoidant, maybe I'm both, maybe I am more anxious.
00:26:48.960 --> 00:26:50.880
It's okay, let's sit with that.
00:26:51.039 --> 00:26:59.279
Let's sit with what in your eyes does it feel like to have this more anxious attaching or have this more avoidant attaching?
00:26:59.440 --> 00:27:05.359
Because it's we're just two people here, you know, like everybody else kind of experiences it on their own wavelength.
00:27:05.599 --> 00:27:05.759
Yeah.
00:27:06.000 --> 00:27:20.319
So really having that moment, whether it is like seeking out a therapist and doing it in like the work in the room together with that support, whether it's starting more just like on your own, kind of journaling, figuring out, okay, what have my relationship patterns looked like in the past?
00:27:20.640 --> 00:27:24.079
Kind of figuring out these are my behaviors that I've enacted in.
00:27:24.319 --> 00:27:25.519
And what did I do?
00:27:25.680 --> 00:27:26.640
What was I a part of?
00:27:26.799 --> 00:27:27.839
What were they a part of?
00:27:28.079 --> 00:27:28.400
Yeah.
00:27:28.559 --> 00:27:30.960
I love that you you know say that.
00:27:31.039 --> 00:27:33.279
Like, what am I noticing?
00:27:33.440 --> 00:27:37.759
You know, because so much I think of our culture as like, let's other everything.
00:27:38.000 --> 00:27:42.880
Like, especially, you know, anxious likes to be like, they're doing this and they're doing that.
00:27:43.119 --> 00:27:49.519
And you know, the avoidant is like, you know, I'm just not like ready for that, or you know, they they want too much from me.
00:27:49.599 --> 00:28:02.480
Like, we tend to other so many other people that we don't actually sit and say, you know what, like I do genuinely want a healthy connection with somebody, and I'm recognizing that's becoming harder and harder.
00:28:03.200 --> 00:28:08.240
And I want to understand, like, what am I participating in?
00:28:08.319 --> 00:28:09.519
Like, what is my pattern here?
00:28:09.680 --> 00:28:14.720
What am I experiencing in this pattern of relationships?
00:28:14.960 --> 00:28:24.720
And becoming really curious about yourself and and how you're experiencing relationships is so important because we love the other, yeah, everything else, right?
00:28:24.960 --> 00:28:28.480
Yeah, so what was what's the another step you can take?
00:28:28.559 --> 00:28:35.759
So once you kind of recognize, okay, this is you know something I'm recognizing is my pattern, what can you do with that?
00:28:36.079 --> 00:28:40.240
Because it's not, you know, we're not like Mary Poppins where we're like off we go.
00:28:40.559 --> 00:28:41.200
Okay, done.
00:28:41.359 --> 00:28:41.920
Okay, yeah.
00:28:42.000 --> 00:28:43.039
I attach anxiously.
00:28:43.200 --> 00:28:43.759
Yeah, okay.
00:28:44.480 --> 00:28:51.680
Um, I feel like it becomes that period of adjustment and that period of growth, which the growing is never easy.
00:28:51.759 --> 00:28:59.119
It's hard, it's difficult, and again, it it attacks that familiarity and it attacks what we have created to be safe.
00:28:59.599 --> 00:29:03.920
Um, so kind of seeking out how can I adjust?
00:29:04.079 --> 00:29:10.160
How can I kind of pivot the patterns that I'm engaging in to better align with what I want?
00:29:10.559 --> 00:29:18.480
Because if at the end of the day you are somebody that attaches more avoidantly, you want to be able to rely on others and still have your independence.
00:29:18.640 --> 00:29:19.680
You've got your own goal.
00:29:19.759 --> 00:29:19.839
Yeah.
00:29:20.079 --> 00:29:30.319
Now it's what kind of steps can I take to get me there that all align together versus and I'm taking avoidance steps, I'm taking steps behind, I'm actually running backwards.
00:29:30.400 --> 00:29:32.160
And it's like there are goals up here, though.
00:29:32.319 --> 00:29:37.359
So it's piecing together ways they can just and that feels natural.
00:29:37.440 --> 00:29:37.680
Yeah.
00:29:37.839 --> 00:29:43.839
It doesn't attack who we are and it doesn't put us into a place of we're broken and we need to be fixed.
00:29:44.079 --> 00:29:44.799
Yeah, yeah.
00:29:44.960 --> 00:29:52.480
And I think that's something it's so important to recognize too, is like, you know, when you recognize you you have a pattern, you probably do have some belief there.
00:29:52.640 --> 00:29:57.279
You probably have some belief like I'm broken, I'm not lovable, I'm too much.
00:29:57.440 --> 00:30:01.920
Like, I think that is really important, you know, as you as you begin to be.
00:30:02.480 --> 00:30:05.119
And even avoidance gotta be to be, right?
00:30:05.599 --> 00:30:13.200
Before you withdraw, before you run away, like just be in that in that place of somebody's putting a bid for connection there, right?
00:30:13.759 --> 00:30:19.359
And and what is that internal belief that you're becoming aware of?
00:30:19.519 --> 00:30:21.519
Is it that like I'm not lovable?
00:30:21.839 --> 00:30:24.319
Like, or I'm I'm gonna be left alone.
00:30:24.400 --> 00:30:26.799
I'm I'm I'm never meant to be with anybody.
00:30:26.960 --> 00:30:32.240
Is it that like you know, I'm afraid somebody's gonna reject me, you know, I'm gonna get hurt.
00:30:32.559 --> 00:30:35.200
What is that internal narrative?
00:30:35.839 --> 00:30:38.960
And then that's your internal narrative, right?
00:30:39.119 --> 00:30:43.119
Like that is not theirs to fix.
00:30:43.440 --> 00:30:47.920
And that's such a tough thing because we really want others to meet our needs.
00:30:48.400 --> 00:30:53.680
And and listen, in healthy connection and relationships, we do have a responsibility, right?
00:30:54.079 --> 00:31:01.359
But recognizing what that belief is helps you become aware of what is the need that you have.
00:31:02.000 --> 00:31:17.920
And it might be I need to um recognize what about me is lovable, or I need to uh be in, you know, really accepting of like that I have big emotions.
00:31:18.079 --> 00:31:20.640
Like I what do I need to receive?
00:31:20.799 --> 00:31:24.880
And oftentimes that goes back to like what in childhood was not okay, right?
00:31:25.039 --> 00:31:25.200
Right.
00:31:25.359 --> 00:31:28.640
So if we had big emotions, maybe it was like shut down, right?
00:31:28.880 --> 00:31:46.799
So really recognizing I need validation, I need affirmations, I need attention or love or affection or whatever, yeah, but not they need to give me a what in you know what that's rooted in.
00:31:47.279 --> 00:32:02.079
Um, what would you say, you know, you know, if somebody's like done those three kind of things and they're like, okay, I'm on this journey, I'm I'm willing to learn how to readjust, how to do this differently, they kind of are aware of their style, their pattern, their narrative.
00:32:02.960 --> 00:32:10.640
Should they just go out into the dating world or go to their partner and be like, okay, this is what I need, this is what I've learned.
00:32:11.759 --> 00:32:13.440
Uh no.
00:32:15.119 --> 00:32:15.359
No?
00:32:15.759 --> 00:32:16.000
Yeah.
00:32:16.240 --> 00:32:23.599
I I feel like that will backfire and you'll actually like run more closer towards what's familiar and comfortable.
00:32:23.759 --> 00:32:43.279
Um, instead, it's kind of doing a little bit of that uh that exposure therapy um in a way that feels comfortable and safe to practice, which is kind of where therapists become such a huge part because we work incredibly hard to create that safe place for you to come in and try something that feels new and scary.
00:32:43.440 --> 00:32:43.920
To come in.
00:32:44.079 --> 00:32:45.759
Maybe you've done all the background work.
00:32:45.839 --> 00:32:51.920
You will walk into your therapy office and you're like, I know I'm avoidant, I know how to fix it, I know what my needs are.
00:32:52.559 --> 00:32:52.880
Okay.
00:32:53.279 --> 00:32:53.519
Yeah.
00:32:53.759 --> 00:32:55.440
And you you come with everything.
00:32:55.599 --> 00:32:58.400
And it's like, okay, that's so great, that's so wonderful.
00:32:58.559 --> 00:33:01.920
Let's circle back to what is it gonna feel like?
00:33:02.079 --> 00:33:03.200
How is that going to be?
00:33:03.279 --> 00:33:04.559
What's gonna happen in our body?
00:33:04.640 --> 00:33:08.960
Because at the end of the day, it's gonna be scary and it's gonna be unpredictable at first.
00:33:09.119 --> 00:33:19.519
So it's finding somebody that you really connect with in the therapy world that you're able to form that alliance with, form that trust, build that connection to say, I know you're not gonna hurt me.
00:33:19.599 --> 00:33:20.720
I can try something new.
00:33:21.440 --> 00:33:37.200
Yeah, I think that's a great way to say it because you know, really therapy is such a healthy place of support, especially if you, you know, are really working with somebody who understands attachment because they are that safe space of trial and error for you.
00:33:37.599 --> 00:33:45.839
And to also recognize like, what is it that you're maybe not hearing yourself experience or say?
00:33:46.000 --> 00:33:52.240
And a therapist can reflect that in such a compassionate way that maybe our partners can't, right?
00:33:52.480 --> 00:34:00.720
And you know, yes, like learning this about yourself, being in a healthy therapeutic relationship where you can start exploring this with a level of exposure, right?
00:34:01.039 --> 00:34:13.039
And then, you know, being in a healthy support system with a partner who's who understands and maybe working on their own, but they can give you the space to practice, you know, being in that vulnerable place.
00:34:13.199 --> 00:34:28.480
But it starts really with the first healthy relationship that you can feel safe in, you know, and and it is sometimes a little too much to start in your own intimate relationship because you know, maybe there's a history of unmet needs between the two of you.
00:34:28.800 --> 00:34:30.400
So yeah, excellent.
00:34:31.199 --> 00:34:38.400
Well, what else would you kind of suggest, or what else do you think it's important to talk about when we talk about the anxious avoidant trap?
00:34:40.320 --> 00:34:49.920
The I feel like if we're like doing, you know, jump into summer type of vibe, it's like uh having that moment of self-awareness, which like you mentioned is scary.
00:34:50.079 --> 00:34:57.679
Yeah, it's also super empowering because once you if there's a bug in your house you and you don't know what kind of bug's in your house, what are you gonna do?
00:34:57.760 --> 00:35:01.519
Yeah, you're gonna be afraid if you know, okay, it's a flying bug and it's in my kitchen.
00:35:01.679 --> 00:35:04.639
You have a little bit of a framework with okay, what do I do with that bug now?
00:35:04.800 --> 00:35:05.119
Yeah.
00:35:05.360 --> 00:35:08.880
So it's figuring out, okay, where are we jumping off with?
00:35:08.960 --> 00:35:10.000
What are we starting with?
00:35:10.159 --> 00:35:13.840
And then from there, kind of, how do I meet my needs?
00:35:14.000 --> 00:35:16.000
What do I need from others to meet my needs?
00:35:16.079 --> 00:35:17.760
What do I need from myself to meet my needs?
00:35:17.840 --> 00:35:22.960
How can I get myself to a place of pride in who I am?
00:35:23.039 --> 00:35:26.719
And if I am somebody that needs some more assurance, that's okay.
00:35:26.800 --> 00:35:28.159
Yeah, that's totally fine.
00:35:28.239 --> 00:35:31.280
Now, how do I ask for that in a way that's going to be met?
00:35:31.519 --> 00:35:32.559
Yeah, absolutely.
00:35:32.719 --> 00:35:47.119
And I think that like learning how to meet your individual needs that are appropriate for you to learn to meet before jumping into something that you're expecting other people to meet, your needs is so important.
00:35:47.760 --> 00:35:55.679
And I love that bugging, like it's bugging the bug because it is, is like, what's bugging me about this pattern I'm in?
00:35:55.840 --> 00:35:57.280
Like what's really bugging me?
00:35:57.360 --> 00:35:59.519
And again, like I said, we tend to other it.
00:35:59.599 --> 00:36:01.519
Yeah, but really it's like we're bugging ourselves.
00:36:01.679 --> 00:36:01.840
Yeah.
00:36:02.079 --> 00:36:02.719
What's the bug?
00:36:02.880 --> 00:36:04.079
Are we flying or are we crawling?
00:36:04.400 --> 00:36:05.440
Is it big or are we small?
00:36:05.840 --> 00:36:06.480
Yeah, exactly.
00:36:06.639 --> 00:36:09.199
So well, I so enjoyed our conversation today.
00:36:09.360 --> 00:36:10.320
I love your analogies.
00:36:10.480 --> 00:36:33.280
I think they're such a great way to like help make something that might feel a little heavy and daunting and you know, overwhelming, and it may make us feel a little hopeless at times to actually like recognize it for something that can be looked at and examined, and we can separate a little bit from it to see that you know, there are ways to navigate through this and adjust.
00:36:33.360 --> 00:36:34.719
And so I really appreciate that.
00:36:34.800 --> 00:36:36.000
And I appreciate you coming on.
00:36:36.480 --> 00:36:38.480
I'm excited to have you for more conversations.
00:36:38.960 --> 00:36:39.679
This has been awesome.
00:36:39.840 --> 00:36:46.719
Yeah, and I would love to talk to you a little bit more about like boys and men and and especially how they navigate relational dynamics.
00:36:46.800 --> 00:36:56.400
And I know Mariana works a lot with like anger and you know, the externalizing and projection of anger, which I think is so important for the men in our society.
00:36:56.559 --> 00:36:58.320
So I appreciate you coming on today.
00:36:58.400 --> 00:36:59.840
We're gonna have you definitely again.
00:37:00.000 --> 00:37:00.639
I'll be back.
00:37:00.800 --> 00:37:01.199
Yeah.
00:37:01.519 --> 00:37:04.800
And thank you all for watching, listening.
00:37:04.960 --> 00:37:07.280
And please like, subscribe, and follow.
00:37:07.360 --> 00:37:14.159
There'll be a couple of videos if you're watching this on YouTube that we'll recommend, but we appreciate you supporting us and being part of our community.
00:37:14.320 --> 00:37:16.960
Yes, thanks and we'll see you next time.
00:37:17.119 --> 00:37:17.519
All right, bye.
00:37:17.679 --> 00:37:18.320
Take care.