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Welcome to Ancestors Footprints with host Bernice Alexander Bennett. The
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podcast where the past comes alive. Whether you're a curious beginner,
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an avid genealogist, or someone who believes that uncovering family
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history is a lifelong journey, this show is for you.
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With each episode, we'll bring you incredible stories, expert insights,
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and practical tips to help you trace your roots and
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and connect with your heritage. I've lined up passionate experts
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who will not only share their knowledge and resources, but
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also answer your most pressing genealogy questions. Together we'll uncover
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the hidden gems in your family's history and inspire you
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to take.
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The next step in your journey.
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So get ready to explore, discover, and honor the footprints
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your ancestors left behind. Your story starts here.
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Welcome to Ancestors Footprints, the podcast where we explore genealogy,
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family history, and the remarkable stories hidden within historical records.
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I'm your host, Bernice Alexander Bennett. Before we begin, consider
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these questions. What stories might be waiting to be discovered
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in the places your ancestors once called home? And how
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might one ancestor's journey across generations, counties, states, or even
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continents connect you to family members and history you never
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knew existed? Today's podcast is entitled Carolina Roots and Legacies,
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Discovering the Stories that Connect Us. We will explore how
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genealogy can help us uncover not only names and dates,
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but also the communities, relationships, struggles, triumphs, and enduring legacies
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that connect us across generations. My guest is someone whose
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lifelong dedication to genealogy and African American history has helped
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hundreds of families discover and preserve their roots. Desi L.
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Campbell is the Executive Director of the Harnett County African
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American Heritage Center and Museum in Littleton, North Carolina, and
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the recipient of the North Carolina Genealogical Society's outstanding contribution
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to North Carolina Genealogy Award, the organization's highest honor. A
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founding officer of the Sandhills Chapter of the Afro-American Historical
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and Genealogical Society, Campbell has helped author 26 family history
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books and Let's Talk Genealogy for kids. They have helped
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more than 200 families uncover their roots while organizing programs
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and celebrations that preserve African-American history and heritage. Campbell is
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also a sought after speaker and advocate whose presentations has
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reached audiences at RootsTech in Salt Lake City and heritage
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events throughout North Carolina. In 2025, Campbell and cousin, Dina L. Hill,
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presented interracial cousins find shared ancestry, sparking a rewarding journey
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to Africa, sharing their research into their fifth great-grandmother, Jenny McLean,
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whose story connects Igbo land in Nigeria, Virginia, and Harnett County.
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Through DNA testing, wills and deeds, They help reconnect descendants
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of Jenny's 14 children across more than 10 generations. So
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let me give a warm welcome to Desi Campbell. Welcome Desi.
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Thank you. Thank you. Thank you. And thank you again.
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So Desi, let's start off with what first inspired you
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to begin researching your family history and And how did
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that journey eventually lead to the creation of the Harnett
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County African American Heritage Center and Museum?
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Well, I started when I was in college. A couple
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of things happened to me in college. There's a young
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man that lived across the hall from me and everybody
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declared we were brothers because we were pretty much built
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up alike. We were everything about us was the same.
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And ironically, his last name was Campbell. And I didn't
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know him. He didn't know me.
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And eventually, maybe about four or five years later, three
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or four years after we graduated, we found out that
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we were really cousins and that they were from Harnett County.
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But growing up, I knew about Harnett County. I just
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didn't know it was called Harnett County. I knew about
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Bunn Level and I knew about Riverside, which is where
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my family lived at. but I never knew the county
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was hard. And so from that, I started meeting other
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people that had, some of them had my last name,
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some of them didn't, but some of them had some,
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we had, we just, we just met and we just
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felt it was a bond.
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I only found out that this bond.
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Was because we were cousins and we didn't know it.
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And that happened throughout my whole college career, my whole
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college career. So I, that's why I kind of wanted to,
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kind of figure out where my family was from.
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And growing up, we grew up in, partly grew up
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in D.C.
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My parents never really talked a lot about, you know,
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their ancestors or their family. I knew my mother's mother,
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and I knew her grandfather, and I knew my great-grandmother.
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And on my dad's side, I knew my grandparents. I
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knew all of his siblings, well, most of his siblings
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and their children. But I never knew about the extended
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part of our family. And I would see these people
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at family reunions, and this was in the late 60s,
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early 70s, but I never knew how they were related
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to me or if they were related to me. So
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I just started searching and looking and looking and searching,
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and I found so much information.
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And this was in the mid-90s. And how I, my journey.
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With the Hunter County African American Heritage Center, well, I
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needed to start this place because I had collected so.
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Many things from so many people.
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Not just from Harnett County, but from all over North
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Carolina and even South Carolina. And I had to have
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somewhere for the house, these things. So that's how I
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kind of wanted to have the Harnett County African American
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Heritage Center. And I wanted to be able to help
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people come and, you know, do their research and help
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them find, you know, about their family history as well.
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Well, that is interesting, especially to meet someone that kind
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of looked like you and had... The same last name
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as you had. I can imagine what it was like
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when you discovered you were cousins. So let's talk about that.
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You know, through genealogy and DNA research, you have connected
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hundreds of descendants of Joe and Jenny McLean. So what
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has that experience taught you about family, identity, and the
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lasting impact of the African diaspora?
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Well, When I started, you know, I just wanted to
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be nosy.
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You know, I don't know who my people are.
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You know, and finding out that a lot of my
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friends are cousins and things that, you know, are cousins
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to me, which is very interesting. However, using the DNA
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opened up a whole new world for me. There's a
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story about my cousin, Dina Hill, or Dina L. Hill,
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who was from Utah and You know, she emailed me
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one day and said that you and a few of
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your cousins.
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Match with everybody in my family.
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And they are from the Mormon church. So you already
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know that they're very adamant about their ancestry. And so
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quite a few of that group had taken the DNA.
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And so, you know, we tried to figure out how
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our connection was because they were white and we were
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black and we didn't know. So, you know, immediately a
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lot of people think that, you know, because they're white,
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their family was the enslaver. And that wasn't the case.
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The case was their third, fourth grade grandmother was actually,
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she had a child by a white man and that
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child ended up being their great, great grandfather. So, and
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they ended up, you know, moving out to Lawrence County, Missouri,
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and he ended up running away from Lawrence County, Missouri,
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ended up in Topeka, Kansas, had married a lady, white lady,
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had 12 kids, And.
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They have a long history in the Mormon church. They
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also have a very.
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They have about seven or eight, maybe nine or 10
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generations of that family.
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And I can assure you, our relationship is great.
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And so that's kind of been an eye-opener for me.
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But then to connect with all these other people, you know,
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a lot of people, when they meet me on the
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ancestry and they say that, or we say we are
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cousins and we see that we are cousins, we see that,
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or I see, that they had a connection in North Carolina.
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But most of them say, we don't have any family
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in North Carolina. We never knew of any family in
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North Carolina. And well, somebody came from North Carolina. And
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when you go back on that latest, the last person
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that you can find in that family, it always says
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their parents or them were actually born in North Carolina.
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And most of those people.
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Migrated to these other states like Mississippi, Alabama, Louisiana, Georgia,
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and Florida. But we have tons and tons of cousins
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down there. And we found a lot of them because
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of DNA.
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Because of DNA. And so I've connected with quite a
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few of them. A lot of them know me. A
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lot of them have been here, never been here before, but.
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They came here for a family reunion or a DNA
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fam fest. So that's been really, really eye-opener.
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So that DNA is really a game changer.
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It's a game changer. Yes, ma'am.
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I actually took it first, and then I convinced my sister,
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my niece, my mom, and even my grandmother, my mother's mother,
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to take it. And what really opened my eyes with
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my grandmother was we didn't know, we had no idea
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that my grandmother was part Native.
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A lot of people say that.
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Their great-grandparents or great-great-whatever was Native Americans and blah.
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Blah, blah.
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And most of the time, it's not that. It's mostly
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mixed with black and white. However, and I took it
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as that with my grandmother, and I didn't pay any
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attention because.
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I had 1% Native American.
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And so when I went to GEDmatch, and I took
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my mother to GEDmatch and my grandmother to GEDmatch, it
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showed that 11 of my chromosomes... were Native American. And
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it said the same thing for my mom and my grandma,
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which was a lot. And so then I started, you know,
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kind of researching into that. So it has opened up
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a whole new world for me.
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Yes, it did. Now, I mentioned about the connection with
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hundreds of descendants of Joe and Jenny McLean.
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Who are they?
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Well, Joe and Jenny McLean were born in Virginia in
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the late 1700s.
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They were sold to North Carolina.
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We're not sure when they were sold to North Carolina,
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but it had to be between 1785 and 1793. And
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the reason being is we found Jenny, along with some
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of her siblings, or we assume were her siblings, in
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the 1793 will of John Sober McClain. He died in 1793,
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and he willed Jenny, along with some other ladies who
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we believe are her siblings, to his daughter, Nancy McClain Clark.
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And we were able to.
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Follow Jenny and Joe from 1793 all the way to
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1863 in a document somewhere. Luckily for us, Jenny was
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still living in 1880. She was, I think, 95 years old.
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And so on the census, you know how it tells
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you where that person was born and where the parents
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were born? Well, in that particular census, it said that
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she was born in Virginia and her parents were born
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in Africa.
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So that told us that.
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She was most likely first generation African-American. Again, that was
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a while back. Of course, we knew we have no
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idea what, you know, what African nation she came from.
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But we are able to follow her.
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And it's because of North Carolina, which I think has
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the greatest records ever. North Carolina has all those wills.
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So we were able to construct a family tree for
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the white McNeils and the white McLeans. Because Joe and Jenny,
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although their name is McLean, most of their children went
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into McNeils because they were sold to the McNeils. And
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they allegedly had 14 kids. And we don't know if
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all of those kids are theirs. If they're not, they're
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probably their nieces and nephews. but we have DNA to
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every last one of them. And some wheels, you can
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find them together. We even find a wheel where Joe
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and Jenny are together. And it says Joe or Jenny,
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the wife of Joe. And in several wheels, we see
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that even on the other side, who we think may
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be Joe or Jenny's sibling, which is my other fifth
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grade grandparents, it listed them as their children. And it
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We're going to give so-and-so to so-and-so who are the
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son of Jim and Lucy, son of Jim and Lucy,
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and enlist all their kids all the way across. So
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we were able to get nine children just from that wheel.
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And it said, and future increase.
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So that let us know that she could still have
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more kids.
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Not only future increase, but they also, just by saying that,
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that they will, those future increase will be.
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In bondage along with their mother.
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Yes.
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Yes.
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Wow. How long did it take you to pull all
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of that together?
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Well, I didn't put it together by myself.
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I'm telling you, Dina Hill has been a great help
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because she actually read all those probate records. And she
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took all the probate records and she put them in
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00:15:52.960 --> 00:15:55.620
a spreadsheet. So now we have a whole book with
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00:15:55.700 --> 00:15:59.240
all those probate records and the slaves, pulled out the
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00:15:59.500 --> 00:16:02.580
indexed slaves out of that and put it into an
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00:16:02.879 --> 00:16:04.039
Excel spreadsheet.
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00:16:04.320 --> 00:16:05.399
And we have a whole book for it.
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00:16:05.799 --> 00:16:09.019
But it's taken us, I think, I took my DNA
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test about 12 years ago. So, you know, some of
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00:16:13.460 --> 00:16:16.580
the stuff I had already, but this stuff, you know,
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00:16:16.940 --> 00:16:20.590
with the slaves, Joe and Jenny, you know, because they're
255
00:16:20.610 --> 00:16:23.929
my fifth great grandparents. So I could only go as
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00:16:23.990 --> 00:16:26.570
far as my great grandparents or my great, great grandparents.
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00:16:27.029 --> 00:16:28.549
The only reason I could do that because their names
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00:16:28.570 --> 00:16:30.970
are on their death certificate. That was as far as
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00:16:31.009 --> 00:16:33.309
I could go. I mean, it wasn't until the last
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00:16:33.840 --> 00:16:36.480
maybe six or seven years that we maybe go further.
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Right.
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00:16:38.240 --> 00:16:43.659
So you have documented, though, thousands of obituaries and written
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numerous family history books, preserved cemeteries and researched churches, plantations,
264
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and Rosenwald schools. Which projects have been the most meaningful
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00:16:57.210 --> 00:16:58.590
to you and why?
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Probably the obituary collection.
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00:17:02.740 --> 00:17:05.359
And, you know, a lot of my friends think I'm
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00:17:05.400 --> 00:17:07.900
weird because.
269
00:17:07.680 --> 00:17:09.980
I have so many obituaries.
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00:17:10.059 --> 00:17:12.140
And right now I think I'm up to about 8,000
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00:17:12.140 --> 00:17:14.640
that I can count. Now there's some more that I
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00:17:14.680 --> 00:17:19.859
haven't even indexed or done anything to. But that's family history.
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Somebody can use obituary and find their family in it. And,
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you know, I use it, I create a database and
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00:17:27.799 --> 00:17:31.400
I make that database available online for people to actually
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00:17:31.829 --> 00:17:35.259
look at and hopefully finds one of their ancestors in
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00:17:35.279 --> 00:17:38.480
their obituary database and hopefully can shed some light on
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00:17:38.500 --> 00:17:39.440
their family history.
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That is like my prize, my pride and joy.
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00:17:44.509 --> 00:17:47.150
And I got a few people helping me here to,
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00:17:47.230 --> 00:17:49.410
you know, kind of put them in a database and
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00:17:49.829 --> 00:17:52.029
put them in the sleeves. Cause I got physical, I
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00:17:52.069 --> 00:17:55.089
got the actual physical obituaries and I have them in
284
00:17:55.230 --> 00:18:00.450
alphabetical order by county. I'm up to about seven counties now. Well,
285
00:18:00.519 --> 00:18:04.950
actually eight counties now. in North Carolina of obituaries. And
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00:18:04.990 --> 00:18:08.910
so people will, and this is funny. Some people think
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00:18:08.950 --> 00:18:11.210
it's funny, but it's funny to me. Sometimes I can
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00:18:11.269 --> 00:18:12.670
come home from work and.
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00:18:12.869 --> 00:18:14.230
There'll be a bag on my door and I go,
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00:18:14.230 --> 00:18:15.930
what is that? And then I get to the door
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00:18:15.950 --> 00:18:19.240
and look at it and it'd be a bag of obituaries. Wow.
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00:18:20.599 --> 00:18:24.319
Well, that says something about you and how the community
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00:18:24.359 --> 00:18:28.640
views you as the person that they can trust those
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00:18:28.720 --> 00:18:32.599
obituaries with. with you because they know that you will
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00:18:32.680 --> 00:18:35.660
not destroy them, that you will index them and make
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00:18:35.720 --> 00:18:37.150
them available to others.
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00:18:37.650 --> 00:18:38.190
Yes, ma'am.
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00:18:38.410 --> 00:18:43.049
Hats off to you. So your research now has traced
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00:18:43.089 --> 00:18:49.519
your family's story from Igbo ancestry in Nigeria, through Virginia,
300
00:18:49.880 --> 00:18:55.000
enslavement in North Carolina, emancipation, Jim Crow, and the civil
301
00:18:55.059 --> 00:19:00.930
rights movement. How do you tell these difficult stories while
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00:19:01.230 --> 00:19:07.920
also celebrating the perseverance and accomplishments of your ancestors?
303
00:19:09.940 --> 00:19:12.390
Well, I just tell it.
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00:19:12.599 --> 00:19:17.779
I don't get sad about it because I have to
305
00:19:17.819 --> 00:19:19.819
look at it as though if this.
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00:19:19.740 --> 00:19:23.119
Hadn't happened, I wouldn't have been here. I hate that
307
00:19:23.160 --> 00:19:25.440
it happened, but it happened. I wouldn't have been here.
308
00:19:26.299 --> 00:19:30.059
And or the fact that I can actually see my
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00:19:30.220 --> 00:19:33.680
ancestors in a record, even though it's a sad situation.
310
00:19:33.700 --> 00:19:36.799
They've been sold for $ 50 or $ 200 or whatever, but
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00:19:36.839 --> 00:19:39.369
I can actually see their name and I can actually
312
00:19:39.430 --> 00:19:41.970
follow them. And I can actually follow some of their children,
313
00:19:42.349 --> 00:19:46.809
you know, even down to Mississippi. I mean, I don't
314
00:19:46.829 --> 00:19:49.049
know what was going on in Mississippi, but a lot
315
00:19:49.069 --> 00:19:51.230
of the enslavers, well, I do know what was going on.
316
00:19:51.250 --> 00:19:52.250
They had land grants.
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00:19:52.349 --> 00:19:52.650
Land, mm-hmm.
318
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They had land grants, and a lot of them moved
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00:19:55.589 --> 00:19:58.210
down there. So I was able to connect with so
320
00:19:58.269 --> 00:20:02.730
many people in Mississippi. I mean, there's thousands of people
321
00:20:02.750 --> 00:20:05.109
in Mississippi that I'm related to on my mom and
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00:20:05.150 --> 00:20:09.109
my dad's side. So following that and actually being able
323
00:20:09.130 --> 00:20:13.309
to connect that I mean, even though it happened during slavery,
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00:20:13.329 --> 00:20:15.170
you know, there's nothing I can do about that now.
325
00:20:15.690 --> 00:20:18.609
It happened. It just happened. And so now I'm excited
326
00:20:18.849 --> 00:20:20.410
that I can connect the dots.
327
00:20:21.049 --> 00:20:22.109
And a lot of my, you know, a lot of
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00:20:22.150 --> 00:20:24.559
my friends or cousins, you know, they are, some of
329
00:20:24.579 --> 00:20:27.440
them don't, ain't too happy about it, but, you know,
330
00:20:27.460 --> 00:20:28.579
there's nothing we can do about it.
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00:20:29.240 --> 00:20:31.440
So my goal is to make the connections.
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00:20:32.519 --> 00:20:36.309
And if I make the connections, I can kind of say, okay, well,
333
00:20:36.329 --> 00:20:39.119
this happened, but This may have happened, but now we
334
00:20:39.140 --> 00:20:39.829
have this connection.
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00:20:39.849 --> 00:20:40.990
So let's look at the bright side.
336
00:20:42.109 --> 00:20:48.089
Well, you mentioned, I mean, the Igbo ancestry in Nigeria.
337
00:20:48.509 --> 00:20:51.990
So how did you make that connection? And number two,
338
00:20:52.089 --> 00:20:53.529
have you gone to Nigeria?
339
00:20:54.630 --> 00:20:59.269
Well, number one, I made that connection because one of
340
00:20:59.450 --> 00:21:05.250
our DNA cousins who is from the Utah group, his
341
00:21:05.269 --> 00:21:09.039
name was Don Ritchie. So Don Ritchie was not, he
342
00:21:09.079 --> 00:21:10.720
was in his 80s when he passed away, which was
343
00:21:10.740 --> 00:21:13.480
a couple of years ago. But he was the only
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00:21:13.779 --> 00:21:19.039
relative known to us that was closest to slavery, because
345
00:21:19.099 --> 00:21:23.380
his grandfather was Nelson Holden Ritchie. So we used his
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00:21:23.440 --> 00:21:29.200
DNA to put in different countries. So we put in
347
00:21:29.700 --> 00:21:33.049
Nigeria because a lot of us have 30 and 40
348
00:21:33.049 --> 00:21:36.970
and 50% Nigerian. So we put in Nigeria and we
349
00:21:37.009 --> 00:21:41.529
came up with a match. My name, I forgot his name,
350
00:21:41.569 --> 00:21:44.890
but he lives in California. I think it's Ene, Ene.
351
00:21:45.710 --> 00:21:52.130
Well, Ene was a second cousin to Don. Yeah. Wow.
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00:21:53.089 --> 00:21:55.529
And he was a second cousin and he was 50%
353
00:21:55.529 --> 00:22:04.809
Nigerian and he was 50% white. So, and the sides matched.
354
00:22:04.829 --> 00:22:07.309
So it was on his father's side and it was
355
00:22:07.509 --> 00:22:10.029
on his, I can't remember which side for NA, but
356
00:22:10.069 --> 00:22:12.670
we know it was the Nigerian side. So we were
357
00:22:12.730 --> 00:22:16.079
able to connect with him. And then he connected us
358
00:22:16.099 --> 00:22:18.559
with some other people. And then there were some other
359
00:22:18.579 --> 00:22:21.839
people that came up on the DNA that were third
360
00:22:21.880 --> 00:22:26.339
and fourth cousins to this guy. And some of them
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00:22:26.420 --> 00:22:29.589
matched with us. So we were up to about five,
362
00:22:29.750 --> 00:22:31.720
maybe two or three years ago. Now we're up to
363
00:22:31.759 --> 00:22:36.240
about 20, and every one of them are 99% to
364
00:22:36.240 --> 00:22:41.099
100% Nigerian, Igbo. So we were able to connect with them,
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00:22:41.420 --> 00:22:44.119
and more excitingly, we were able to participate in the
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00:22:44.259 --> 00:22:49.339
Igbo naming ceremony, not once but twice. We weren't able
367
00:22:49.359 --> 00:22:51.759
to go this year, so hopefully we can go next year.
368
00:22:52.380 --> 00:22:55.500
It's in Brunswick, Georgia, and I think a little over
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00:22:55.500 --> 00:22:57.359
200 of us have Igbo certificates.
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00:22:58.660 --> 00:23:03.319
Oh, right, right. So let's switch a little because you
371
00:23:03.359 --> 00:23:10.359
have so many roles, but as an educator, historian, author, musician,
372
00:23:10.759 --> 00:23:15.369
and genealogist, how do you hope your work will inspire
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00:23:15.549 --> 00:23:21.289
young people and future generations to preserve their own family
374
00:23:21.470 --> 00:23:23.309
and community histories?
375
00:23:24.650 --> 00:23:29.430
Well, my hope is that the younger crowd And I
376
00:23:29.450 --> 00:23:30.450
can give you an example.
377
00:23:31.289 --> 00:23:34.849
But the younger crowd would really take hold to carry
378
00:23:34.950 --> 00:23:35.809
on this legacy.
379
00:23:36.009 --> 00:23:38.410
Because I don't want just my stuff to be, or
380
00:23:38.509 --> 00:23:41.970
anybody's stuff, just once I'm gone or once this generation
381
00:23:42.029 --> 00:23:46.509
is gone, it's just gone. For example, one of my
382
00:23:46.549 --> 00:23:50.589
cousins in South Carolina, she had probably 3,000 or 4,000 obituaries.
383
00:23:51.309 --> 00:23:52.910
And I went to her house and I almost lost
384
00:23:52.950 --> 00:23:53.490
my mind.
385
00:23:53.509 --> 00:23:57.190
Her kids kept trying to get rid of them.
386
00:23:58.019 --> 00:23:58.980
And she wouldn't get rid of them.
387
00:23:59.039 --> 00:24:00.640
Once she died, my cousin called me and said, you
388
00:24:00.660 --> 00:24:03.440
need to get down here right now and get these obituaries.
389
00:24:03.769 --> 00:24:05.789
But by the time he called over there, they had
390
00:24:05.869 --> 00:24:07.329
set them things on fire.
391
00:24:07.690 --> 00:24:08.690
Oh, no.
392
00:24:09.289 --> 00:24:11.569
Yeah, it was bad. It is what it is.
393
00:24:11.950 --> 00:24:15.809
But those things need to be preserved.
394
00:24:16.319 --> 00:24:17.799
And the only way we're going to do it, the
395
00:24:17.839 --> 00:24:23.140
young generation got to do it. Because I'm up in age.
396
00:24:23.940 --> 00:24:27.769
And all the people that I deal with, are older
397
00:24:27.789 --> 00:24:30.970
than me, actually. So we're up in age and eventually
398
00:24:31.609 --> 00:24:33.849
we're going to pass away. So somebody needs to take
399
00:24:33.869 --> 00:24:37.670
the mantle. However, last year I had the most interesting
400
00:24:37.710 --> 00:24:41.710
thing as a teacher. And I taught fifth grade and
401
00:24:41.759 --> 00:24:43.920
I didn't really want to teach fifth grade, but I
402
00:24:43.960 --> 00:24:45.900
taught fifth grade for two and a half years.
403
00:24:47.140 --> 00:24:49.759
And last year was probably the most rewarding.
404
00:24:49.319 --> 00:24:53.420
Year I've ever had because my kids was all into
405
00:24:53.720 --> 00:24:55.900
everything I did.
406
00:24:57.220 --> 00:25:01.000
And I really miss them. And I, it was so much,
407
00:25:01.059 --> 00:25:03.880
it was so, so much, there was so much in
408
00:25:03.900 --> 00:25:04.440
this stuff.
409
00:25:04.240 --> 00:25:07.150
That I did that I involved them in what I
410
00:25:07.190 --> 00:25:10.930
was doing by letting them put on a black history program.
411
00:25:10.930 --> 00:25:14.230
Outside of school and invited their parents in the community.
412
00:25:14.609 --> 00:25:19.269
And they did the whole program. I did the entire program.
413
00:25:19.730 --> 00:25:23.180
They MC, they did everything. And I sat there and
414
00:25:23.240 --> 00:25:24.740
cried the whole program.
415
00:25:26.480 --> 00:25:28.819
Because it was so overwhelming. And I still see some
416
00:25:28.839 --> 00:25:29.440
of them today.
417
00:25:30.119 --> 00:25:33.109
And I actually, for Juneteenth, I called some of the
418
00:25:33.130 --> 00:25:35.829
parents and said, I got to speak at Juneteenth program.
419
00:25:36.529 --> 00:25:38.829
And I would love for some of the kids to
420
00:25:38.869 --> 00:25:40.490
come and help me speak.
421
00:25:40.509 --> 00:25:42.759
So I would give them all a part. And I
422
00:25:42.779 --> 00:25:43.819
think six of them came.
423
00:25:44.319 --> 00:25:47.039
And it was so rewarding because they're so interested in
424
00:25:47.079 --> 00:25:50.319
the things that I do. And to me, that's what
425
00:25:50.559 --> 00:25:52.619
pouring out into this next generation is all about.
426
00:25:53.900 --> 00:25:56.940
Well, you know, I'm just listening to you and I'm
427
00:25:56.980 --> 00:26:00.470
just feeling your excitement and the fact that you have
428
00:26:00.509 --> 00:26:04.670
been an inspiration for those fifth graders to put that
429
00:26:04.750 --> 00:26:15.039
whole program together. That's amazing. Oh, yes, yes. But, you know,
430
00:26:15.079 --> 00:26:19.539
that tells you the impact that you've had on your community.
431
00:26:19.599 --> 00:26:23.549
So why is it so important, though? to document local
432
00:26:23.670 --> 00:26:28.490
institutions such as churches and cemeteries and schools and community
433
00:26:29.029 --> 00:26:31.920
organizations before their stories are lost?
434
00:26:32.839 --> 00:26:36.920
Well, a lot of their stories were lost until now.
435
00:26:38.099 --> 00:26:40.599
You know, the books I've done, I've been able to
436
00:26:40.660 --> 00:26:43.839
capture some of those church histories and put them in
437
00:26:43.880 --> 00:26:46.660
a book or some of these cemeteries that were lost
438
00:26:46.680 --> 00:26:49.109
and nobody knew anything about them or they knew about
439
00:26:49.130 --> 00:26:51.349
them and everybody that knew about them had passed away.
440
00:26:51.900 --> 00:26:53.730
And they had all these markers in it.
441
00:26:53.990 --> 00:26:57.029
But it's important to preserve that stuff because now that
442
00:26:57.069 --> 00:27:01.789
we are able to preserve it, when the next generation comes,
443
00:27:02.049 --> 00:27:03.589
they won't have to work as hard as we did
444
00:27:03.769 --> 00:27:06.609
because we're working hard to try to keep this stuff
445
00:27:06.690 --> 00:27:11.519
and preserve this stuff, cleaning cemeteries, pulling out these obituaries,
446
00:27:12.220 --> 00:27:13.200
gathering pictures.
447
00:27:14.200 --> 00:27:15.039
That's important.
448
00:27:15.359 --> 00:27:18.059
And if we don't do it and keep it and
449
00:27:18.240 --> 00:27:22.160
document it and digitize it, it could be lost.
450
00:27:22.539 --> 00:27:25.160
That's what I think is important.
451
00:27:25.619 --> 00:27:31.160
Yes, indeed. So North Carolina, and you mentioned North Carolina earlier,
452
00:27:31.240 --> 00:27:38.490
holds layers upon layers of migration, African-American history, and family connections.
453
00:27:39.089 --> 00:27:44.589
What do you believe people often overlook about Carolina ancestry?
454
00:27:45.029 --> 00:27:49.109
And what advice would you give to researchers who are
455
00:27:49.369 --> 00:27:53.460
just beginning to explore their Carolina roots?
456
00:27:57.240 --> 00:28:06.660
People often overlook obituaries. They often overlook DNA. They often
457
00:28:06.839 --> 00:28:11.019
overlook just talking to people. You know, I always tell
458
00:28:11.059 --> 00:28:15.769
people when I first started, I went, I ain't know nobody.
459
00:28:15.869 --> 00:28:17.589
I'm telling you, I ain't know none of these people.
460
00:28:18.140 --> 00:28:19.579
I used to come down here, I used to get
461
00:28:19.599 --> 00:28:22.140
on my car and I would drive to Harnett County
462
00:28:22.559 --> 00:28:23.859
and I would, they said, you need to.
463
00:28:23.839 --> 00:28:24.740
Go see Mr. Theodore.
464
00:28:25.160 --> 00:28:27.400
I would go see Mr. Theodore Campbell. I don't care
465
00:28:27.420 --> 00:28:28.839
where he was. He could be in the field on
466
00:28:28.859 --> 00:28:30.900
the tractor. He could be sitting on the front porch
467
00:28:31.269 --> 00:28:32.910
and I would just sit there and just talk to him.
468
00:28:33.289 --> 00:28:38.170
And people don't understand that information is valuable. I never
469
00:28:38.369 --> 00:28:42.710
knew my great uncle, Turner Campbell. Never knew him until
470
00:28:42.829 --> 00:28:45.190
probably maybe a year or so before he died. I
471
00:28:45.789 --> 00:28:49.150
would see him at the family reunions in the 70s,
472
00:28:49.490 --> 00:28:50.630
but I didn't know he was my uncle.
473
00:28:50.670 --> 00:28:51.549
I didn't know who he was.
474
00:28:52.569 --> 00:28:54.589
And so I went to see him and the stories
475
00:28:54.609 --> 00:28:57.349
that he told me were unbelievable.
476
00:28:58.349 --> 00:29:00.170
And so that's important. A lot of people don't look
477
00:29:00.230 --> 00:29:00.549
at that.
478
00:29:00.869 --> 00:29:02.809
They think that the stories that the older people are
479
00:29:02.829 --> 00:29:05.569
telling you are not true. Well, some of them may
480
00:29:05.690 --> 00:29:09.009
and may is questionable, but every, just about every story
481
00:29:09.029 --> 00:29:13.150
that I've heard from an older person, I found out
482
00:29:13.410 --> 00:29:14.970
was some truth to it, but it took me a
483
00:29:14.990 --> 00:29:15.890
minute to figure it out.
484
00:29:16.559 --> 00:29:19.539
Some of them 15, 20 years. But so we kind
485
00:29:19.579 --> 00:29:21.819
of overlooked that and we overlooked cemeteries.
486
00:29:22.900 --> 00:29:26.119
You know, going to a cemetery and actually looking at
487
00:29:26.140 --> 00:29:31.509
the gravestones because some of these gravestones are old. You know,
488
00:29:31.549 --> 00:29:36.210
here in Hardy County, we have about 50, 60 cemeteries.
489
00:29:36.769 --> 00:29:41.029
And a lot of them are old cemeteries from these
490
00:29:41.069 --> 00:29:45.190
churches that's founded in the mid-1800s.
491
00:29:45.630 --> 00:29:49.019
So they had a graveyard. And, you know, some of
492
00:29:49.039 --> 00:29:50.960
them had tombstones, which is unbelievable.
493
00:29:50.980 --> 00:29:53.819
You know, we got tombstones of people that died in
494
00:29:54.000 --> 00:29:54.200
the 1880s.
495
00:29:54.740 --> 00:29:58.240
We actually have a tombstone for African-Americans. So looking at
496
00:29:58.279 --> 00:29:59.170
a graveyard....
497
00:30:00.759 --> 00:30:03.920
And just other artifacts that you can research, like the
498
00:30:03.960 --> 00:30:06.339
wheels and the deeds. A lot of people overlook that
499
00:30:06.380 --> 00:30:08.609
because they don't want to read it because it's hard
500
00:30:08.640 --> 00:30:08.980
to read.
501
00:30:10.470 --> 00:30:12.009
That's the best information ever.
502
00:30:12.529 --> 00:30:15.410
Or looking at this 1870 census and looking at the
503
00:30:15.430 --> 00:30:19.329
people that surround you, around that family, most likely those
504
00:30:19.349 --> 00:30:21.369
are the people that may have been enslaved your people.
505
00:30:22.210 --> 00:30:22.410
Why?
506
00:30:22.470 --> 00:30:26.339
Because that was only five years after the emancipation. So
507
00:30:26.359 --> 00:30:28.380
a lot of them didn't leave the area or didn't
508
00:30:28.400 --> 00:30:32.069
leave the plantation, maybe or maybe not. So I had
509
00:30:32.089 --> 00:30:34.910
that example with two of my families, the McNeils and
510
00:30:34.930 --> 00:30:37.529
the Rays. They were living right next door. But I
511
00:30:37.589 --> 00:30:42.710
never explored that until probably 15 years later and found
512
00:30:42.750 --> 00:30:44.609
out those were the ones that enslaved my family.
513
00:30:44.630 --> 00:30:46.059
So I was able to do a tree on them.
514
00:30:46.430 --> 00:30:48.740
I was able to figure out how they were passed down.
515
00:30:56.279 --> 00:30:59.619
What advice? Well, the advice is to check out everything
516
00:31:00.230 --> 00:31:00.609
Check out.
517
00:31:00.589 --> 00:31:07.819
Every resource you can find to document that relative. You know,
518
00:31:07.859 --> 00:31:11.000
it's hard to find pictures of African-Americans, you know, from
519
00:31:11.019 --> 00:31:14.640
the early 1800s or the mid-1800s, but you will be
520
00:31:14.700 --> 00:31:20.230
surprised who has pictures. Met a lady probably in the 90s.
521
00:31:21.140 --> 00:31:23.839
She was in her 90s, but I thought she was
522
00:31:23.880 --> 00:31:26.660
about 70, but she looked like she was about 70,
523
00:31:26.660 --> 00:31:28.940
but she was in her 90s. And she actually had
524
00:31:28.980 --> 00:31:31.990
pictures of her great grandfather who was born in 1840s.
525
00:31:32.000 --> 00:31:37.220
And there's a picture of him and two brothers. So
526
00:31:37.240 --> 00:31:41.990
that was good information to actually have a picture. But to,
527
00:31:42.130 --> 00:31:45.930
you know, exhaust every resource you can find, you know,
528
00:31:45.970 --> 00:31:49.369
check out the cemeteries, check out the databases, if there
529
00:31:49.450 --> 00:31:50.130
is a database.
530
00:31:50.490 --> 00:31:53.730
If it's not, start one of cemeteries and.
531
00:31:53.609 --> 00:31:57.349
Obituaries and just go to the conventions.
532
00:31:57.880 --> 00:32:02.329
Conferences. I go to, you know, OGS and I participate
533
00:32:02.369 --> 00:32:03.690
in OGS. I take those classes.
534
00:32:04.009 --> 00:32:07.230
I even teach some of those classes and just learn
535
00:32:07.269 --> 00:32:10.829
all you can to try to help yourself and help
536
00:32:10.890 --> 00:32:11.369
other people.
537
00:32:12.069 --> 00:32:15.849
Right. Learn all you can. Well, Desi, I want to
538
00:32:15.950 --> 00:32:19.880
thank you for joining me on Ancestors Footprints and for
539
00:32:19.990 --> 00:32:27.390
sharing your remarkable journey of discovery, preservation, and connection. Your
540
00:32:27.430 --> 00:32:31.450
work reminds us that our ancestors' stories are not simply
541
00:32:31.529 --> 00:32:36.509
found in documents. They live in communities they built, the
542
00:32:36.670 --> 00:32:41.309
families they nurtured, and the legacies they left behind. And
543
00:32:41.410 --> 00:32:47.029
to our listeners, I hope today's conversation encourages you to
544
00:32:47.089 --> 00:32:50.910
take another look at your family history. Follow the clues.
545
00:32:51.470 --> 00:32:54.809
Listen to the stories as Desi just said to us.
546
00:32:55.789 --> 00:32:58.450
Go and talk to that older person in the community
547
00:32:58.910 --> 00:33:04.380
and pay attention to the places your ancestors traveled and
548
00:33:04.450 --> 00:33:09.579
called home. You may discover connections that reach far beyond
549
00:33:10.079 --> 00:33:16.039
what you ever imagined. And remember, every family has a story,
550
00:33:16.579 --> 00:33:22.390
every ancestor leaves footprints, and every generation has a responsibility
551
00:33:22.789 --> 00:33:27.490
to carry the story forward. which is exactly what Desi
552
00:33:27.549 --> 00:33:31.039
Campbell is doing. So I want to thank you to
553
00:33:31.319 --> 00:33:36.579
our listeners for joining us on Ancestors Footprints. If today's
554
00:33:36.839 --> 00:33:41.920
episode inspired you, please subscribe and share it with someone
555
00:33:41.960 --> 00:33:48.430
who loves history, genealogy, or storytelling. You can find Ancestors
556
00:33:48.509 --> 00:33:56.339
Footprints on Spreaker.com, Apple Podcasts, iHeart, Amazon Music, and many
557
00:33:56.460 --> 00:34:01.599
other podcast platforms. And be sure to subscribe so you
558
00:34:01.779 --> 00:34:08.750
never miss an episode. Until next time, keep exploring, keep remembering,
559
00:34:09.150 --> 00:34:13.090
keep telling the stories, and keep walking in the footsteps
560
00:34:13.590 --> 00:34:17.150
of those who came before us. This is your host,
561
00:34:17.469 --> 00:34:22.449
Bernice Alexander Bennett. Thank you so much, Desi Campbell, for
562
00:34:22.510 --> 00:34:23.809
joining me today.
563
00:34:24.590 --> 00:34:24.929
Thank you.
1
00:00:03.680 --> 00:00:10.099
Welcome to Ancestors Footprints with host Bernice Alexander Bennett. The
2
00:00:10.119 --> 00:00:15.070
podcast where the past comes alive. Whether you're a curious beginner,
3
00:00:15.710 --> 00:00:19.989
an avid genealogist, or someone who believes that uncovering family
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00:00:20.050 --> 00:00:24.410
history is a lifelong journey, this show is for you.
5
00:00:25.469 --> 00:00:29.800
With each episode, we'll bring you incredible stories, expert insights,
6
00:00:30.199 --> 00:00:32.820
and practical tips to help you trace your roots and
7
00:00:33.320 --> 00:00:37.359
and connect with your heritage. I've lined up passionate experts
8
00:00:37.700 --> 00:00:41.259
who will not only share their knowledge and resources, but
9
00:00:41.420 --> 00:00:47.109
also answer your most pressing genealogy questions. Together we'll uncover
10
00:00:47.130 --> 00:00:50.530
the hidden gems in your family's history and inspire you
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00:00:50.549 --> 00:00:51.210
to take.
12
00:00:51.009 --> 00:00:52.630
The next step in your journey.
13
00:00:53.609 --> 00:00:58.950
So get ready to explore, discover, and honor the footprints
14
00:00:59.009 --> 00:01:03.890
your ancestors left behind. Your story starts here.
15
00:01:06.849 --> 00:01:13.140
Welcome to Ancestors Footprints, the podcast where we explore genealogy,
16
00:01:13.620 --> 00:01:19.260
family history, and the remarkable stories hidden within historical records.
17
00:01:19.819 --> 00:01:25.280
I'm your host, Bernice Alexander Bennett. Before we begin, consider
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00:01:25.430 --> 00:01:30.269
these questions. What stories might be waiting to be discovered
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00:01:30.739 --> 00:01:35.500
in the places your ancestors once called home? And how
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00:01:35.620 --> 00:01:43.000
might one ancestor's journey across generations, counties, states, or even
21
00:01:43.180 --> 00:01:49.030
continents connect you to family members and history you never
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00:01:49.189 --> 00:01:56.430
knew existed? Today's podcast is entitled Carolina Roots and Legacies,
23
00:01:56.950 --> 00:02:02.129
Discovering the Stories that Connect Us. We will explore how
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00:02:02.189 --> 00:02:06.870
genealogy can help us uncover not only names and dates,
25
00:02:07.269 --> 00:02:15.639
but also the communities, relationships, struggles, triumphs, and enduring legacies
26
00:02:15.740 --> 00:02:21.479
that connect us across generations. My guest is someone whose
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00:02:21.659 --> 00:02:28.020
lifelong dedication to genealogy and African American history has helped
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00:02:28.240 --> 00:02:34.939
hundreds of families discover and preserve their roots. Desi L.
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00:02:35.039 --> 00:02:41.289
Campbell is the Executive Director of the Harnett County African
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00:02:41.490 --> 00:02:48.610
American Heritage Center and Museum in Littleton, North Carolina, and
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00:02:48.669 --> 00:02:55.879
the recipient of the North Carolina Genealogical Society's outstanding contribution
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00:02:56.319 --> 00:03:03.180
to North Carolina Genealogy Award, the organization's highest honor. A
33
00:03:03.300 --> 00:03:09.620
founding officer of the Sandhills Chapter of the Afro-American Historical
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00:03:09.819 --> 00:03:16.770
and Genealogical Society, Campbell has helped author 26 family history
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00:03:16.849 --> 00:03:22.050
books and Let's Talk Genealogy for kids. They have helped
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00:03:22.210 --> 00:03:28.120
more than 200 families uncover their roots while organizing programs
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00:03:28.439 --> 00:03:35.719
and celebrations that preserve African-American history and heritage. Campbell is
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00:03:36.030 --> 00:03:42.150
also a sought after speaker and advocate whose presentations has
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reached audiences at RootsTech in Salt Lake City and heritage
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events throughout North Carolina. In 2025, Campbell and cousin, Dina L. Hill,
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00:03:57.009 --> 00:04:04.280
presented interracial cousins find shared ancestry, sparking a rewarding journey
42
00:04:04.460 --> 00:04:11.639
to Africa, sharing their research into their fifth great-grandmother, Jenny McLean,
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00:04:12.340 --> 00:04:18.759
whose story connects Igbo land in Nigeria, Virginia, and Harnett County.
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00:04:19.459 --> 00:04:25.540
Through DNA testing, wills and deeds, They help reconnect descendants
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00:04:25.819 --> 00:04:31.740
of Jenny's 14 children across more than 10 generations. So
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00:04:31.839 --> 00:04:36.600
let me give a warm welcome to Desi Campbell. Welcome Desi.
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00:04:37.259 --> 00:04:39.959
Thank you. Thank you. Thank you. And thank you again.
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00:04:42.029 --> 00:04:46.850
So Desi, let's start off with what first inspired you
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00:04:46.910 --> 00:04:51.980
to begin researching your family history and And how did
50
00:04:52.120 --> 00:04:57.459
that journey eventually lead to the creation of the Harnett
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00:04:57.879 --> 00:05:02.120
County African American Heritage Center and Museum?
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00:05:03.199 --> 00:05:06.509
Well, I started when I was in college. A couple
53
00:05:06.550 --> 00:05:09.529
of things happened to me in college. There's a young
54
00:05:09.569 --> 00:05:12.629
man that lived across the hall from me and everybody
55
00:05:12.670 --> 00:05:16.889
declared we were brothers because we were pretty much built
56
00:05:16.949 --> 00:05:21.569
up alike. We were everything about us was the same.
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And ironically, his last name was Campbell. And I didn't
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00:05:25.860 --> 00:05:26.860
know him. He didn't know me.
59
00:05:28.500 --> 00:05:32.540
And eventually, maybe about four or five years later, three
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or four years after we graduated, we found out that
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00:05:36.480 --> 00:05:39.149
we were really cousins and that they were from Harnett County.
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But growing up, I knew about Harnett County. I just
63
00:05:42.930 --> 00:05:45.269
didn't know it was called Harnett County. I knew about
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00:05:45.350 --> 00:05:48.930
Bunn Level and I knew about Riverside, which is where
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00:05:48.970 --> 00:05:52.069
my family lived at. but I never knew the county
66
00:05:52.110 --> 00:05:56.649
was hard. And so from that, I started meeting other
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00:05:56.689 --> 00:06:00.069
people that had, some of them had my last name,
68
00:06:00.110 --> 00:06:03.709
some of them didn't, but some of them had some,
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00:06:04.769 --> 00:06:06.569
we had, we just, we just met and we just
70
00:06:06.649 --> 00:06:07.649
felt it was a bond.
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00:06:08.129 --> 00:06:09.949
I only found out that this bond.
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00:06:09.670 --> 00:06:11.740
Was because we were cousins and we didn't know it.
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00:06:12.750 --> 00:06:17.410
And that happened throughout my whole college career, my whole
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00:06:17.490 --> 00:06:20.389
college career. So I, that's why I kind of wanted to,
75
00:06:20.839 --> 00:06:22.459
kind of figure out where my family was from.
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00:06:23.000 --> 00:06:24.759
And growing up, we grew up in, partly grew up
77
00:06:24.800 --> 00:06:25.240
in D.C.
78
00:06:25.279 --> 00:06:28.699
My parents never really talked a lot about, you know,
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00:06:28.899 --> 00:06:33.810
their ancestors or their family. I knew my mother's mother,
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00:06:34.290 --> 00:06:39.649
and I knew her grandfather, and I knew my great-grandmother.
81
00:06:40.970 --> 00:06:43.269
And on my dad's side, I knew my grandparents. I
82
00:06:43.290 --> 00:06:46.449
knew all of his siblings, well, most of his siblings
83
00:06:46.769 --> 00:06:49.350
and their children. But I never knew about the extended
84
00:06:49.449 --> 00:06:51.709
part of our family. And I would see these people
85
00:06:51.790 --> 00:06:54.589
at family reunions, and this was in the late 60s,
86
00:06:54.649 --> 00:06:57.430
early 70s, but I never knew how they were related
87
00:06:57.449 --> 00:06:59.550
to me or if they were related to me. So
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I just started searching and looking and looking and searching,
89
00:07:02.970 --> 00:07:05.029
and I found so much information.
90
00:07:05.050 --> 00:07:10.839
And this was in the mid-90s. And how I, my journey.
91
00:07:10.680 --> 00:07:13.920
With the Hunter County African American Heritage Center, well, I
92
00:07:13.980 --> 00:07:16.439
needed to start this place because I had collected so.
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00:07:16.339 --> 00:07:17.620
Many things from so many people.
94
00:07:18.439 --> 00:07:20.399
Not just from Harnett County, but from all over North
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00:07:20.420 --> 00:07:23.160
Carolina and even South Carolina. And I had to have
96
00:07:23.199 --> 00:07:25.970
somewhere for the house, these things. So that's how I
97
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kind of wanted to have the Harnett County African American
98
00:07:29.009 --> 00:07:30.949
Heritage Center. And I wanted to be able to help
99
00:07:31.009 --> 00:07:34.889
people come and, you know, do their research and help
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00:07:34.930 --> 00:07:38.480
them find, you know, about their family history as well.
101
00:07:39.699 --> 00:07:44.819
Well, that is interesting, especially to meet someone that kind
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00:07:44.879 --> 00:07:47.759
of looked like you and had... The same last name
103
00:07:47.819 --> 00:07:51.699
as you had. I can imagine what it was like
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00:07:51.750 --> 00:07:55.310
when you discovered you were cousins. So let's talk about that.
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00:07:55.329 --> 00:08:00.389
You know, through genealogy and DNA research, you have connected
106
00:08:00.750 --> 00:08:05.629
hundreds of descendants of Joe and Jenny McLean. So what
107
00:08:05.689 --> 00:08:10.649
has that experience taught you about family, identity, and the
108
00:08:10.829 --> 00:08:14.149
lasting impact of the African diaspora?
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00:08:15.439 --> 00:08:18.970
Well, When I started, you know, I just wanted to
110
00:08:19.009 --> 00:08:22.089
be nosy.
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00:08:22.149 --> 00:08:23.949
You know, I don't know who my people are.
112
00:08:24.389 --> 00:08:25.810
You know, and finding out that a lot of my
113
00:08:26.009 --> 00:08:29.589
friends are cousins and things that, you know, are cousins
114
00:08:29.629 --> 00:08:35.570
to me, which is very interesting. However, using the DNA
115
00:08:36.970 --> 00:08:40.090
opened up a whole new world for me. There's a
116
00:08:40.110 --> 00:08:43.990
story about my cousin, Dina Hill, or Dina L. Hill,
117
00:08:44.009 --> 00:08:48.090
who was from Utah and You know, she emailed me
118
00:08:48.210 --> 00:08:50.669
one day and said that you and a few of
119
00:08:50.720 --> 00:08:51.600
your cousins.
120
00:08:51.269 --> 00:08:52.779
Match with everybody in my family.
121
00:08:53.799 --> 00:08:56.279
And they are from the Mormon church. So you already
122
00:08:56.299 --> 00:09:00.519
know that they're very adamant about their ancestry. And so
123
00:09:00.620 --> 00:09:02.539
quite a few of that group had taken the DNA.
124
00:09:03.399 --> 00:09:06.340
And so, you know, we tried to figure out how
125
00:09:06.379 --> 00:09:08.620
our connection was because they were white and we were
126
00:09:08.659 --> 00:09:12.129
black and we didn't know. So, you know, immediately a
127
00:09:12.159 --> 00:09:14.809
lot of people think that, you know, because they're white,
128
00:09:14.830 --> 00:09:18.159
their family was the enslaver. And that wasn't the case.
129
00:09:19.000 --> 00:09:24.110
The case was their third, fourth grade grandmother was actually,
130
00:09:25.769 --> 00:09:28.389
she had a child by a white man and that
131
00:09:28.429 --> 00:09:31.830
child ended up being their great, great grandfather. So, and
132
00:09:31.850 --> 00:09:36.070
they ended up, you know, moving out to Lawrence County, Missouri,
133
00:09:37.070 --> 00:09:40.070
and he ended up running away from Lawrence County, Missouri,
134
00:09:40.129 --> 00:09:44.090
ended up in Topeka, Kansas, had married a lady, white lady,
135
00:09:44.529 --> 00:09:46.789
had 12 kids, And.
136
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They have a long history in the Mormon church. They
137
00:09:51.750 --> 00:09:52.820
also have a very.
138
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They have about seven or eight, maybe nine or 10
139
00:09:56.090 --> 00:09:57.330
generations of that family.
140
00:09:58.470 --> 00:10:01.389
And I can assure you, our relationship is great.
141
00:10:02.610 --> 00:10:04.450
And so that's kind of been an eye-opener for me.
142
00:10:04.809 --> 00:10:07.549
But then to connect with all these other people, you know,
143
00:10:07.580 --> 00:10:10.409
a lot of people, when they meet me on the
144
00:10:10.580 --> 00:10:12.980
ancestry and they say that, or we say we are
145
00:10:13.000 --> 00:10:16.460
cousins and we see that we are cousins, we see that,
146
00:10:17.240 --> 00:10:20.039
or I see, that they had a connection in North Carolina.
147
00:10:20.379 --> 00:10:22.559
But most of them say, we don't have any family
148
00:10:22.580 --> 00:10:24.409
in North Carolina. We never knew of any family in
149
00:10:24.419 --> 00:10:28.830
North Carolina. And well, somebody came from North Carolina. And
150
00:10:28.850 --> 00:10:31.230
when you go back on that latest, the last person
151
00:10:31.250 --> 00:10:34.990
that you can find in that family, it always says
152
00:10:35.029 --> 00:10:37.830
their parents or them were actually born in North Carolina.
153
00:10:38.590 --> 00:10:39.590
And most of those people.
154
00:10:39.409 --> 00:10:50.340
Migrated to these other states like Mississippi, Alabama, Louisiana, Georgia,
155
00:10:50.399 --> 00:10:53.740
and Florida. But we have tons and tons of cousins
156
00:10:53.779 --> 00:10:56.320
down there. And we found a lot of them because
157
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of DNA.
158
00:10:58.799 --> 00:11:03.519
Because of DNA. And so I've connected with quite a
159
00:11:03.620 --> 00:11:05.480
few of them. A lot of them know me. A
160
00:11:05.519 --> 00:11:08.049
lot of them have been here, never been here before, but.
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00:11:07.970 --> 00:11:10.529
They came here for a family reunion or a DNA
162
00:11:10.570 --> 00:11:14.350
fam fest. So that's been really, really eye-opener.
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So that DNA is really a game changer.
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It's a game changer. Yes, ma'am.
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I actually took it first, and then I convinced my sister,
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my niece, my mom, and even my grandmother, my mother's mother,
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to take it. And what really opened my eyes with
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my grandmother was we didn't know, we had no idea
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that my grandmother was part Native.
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A lot of people say that.
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Their great-grandparents or great-great-whatever was Native Americans and blah.
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Blah, blah.
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And most of the time, it's not that. It's mostly
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mixed with black and white. However, and I took it
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as that with my grandmother, and I didn't pay any
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attention because.
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I had 1% Native American.
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And so when I went to GEDmatch, and I took
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my mother to GEDmatch and my grandmother to GEDmatch, it
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showed that 11 of my chromosomes... were Native American. And
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it said the same thing for my mom and my grandma,
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which was a lot. And so then I started, you know,
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kind of researching into that. So it has opened up
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a whole new world for me.
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Yes, it did. Now, I mentioned about the connection with
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hundreds of descendants of Joe and Jenny McLean.
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Who are they?
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Well, Joe and Jenny McLean were born in Virginia in
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the late 1700s.
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They were sold to North Carolina.
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We're not sure when they were sold to North Carolina,
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but it had to be between 1785 and 1793. And
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the reason being is we found Jenny, along with some
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of her siblings, or we assume were her siblings, in
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the 1793 will of John Sober McClain. He died in 1793,
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and he willed Jenny, along with some other ladies who
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we believe are her siblings, to his daughter, Nancy McClain Clark.
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And we were able to.
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Follow Jenny and Joe from 1793 all the way to
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1863 in a document somewhere. Luckily for us, Jenny was
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still living in 1880. She was, I think, 95 years old.
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And so on the census, you know how it tells
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you where that person was born and where the parents
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were born? Well, in that particular census, it said that
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she was born in Virginia and her parents were born
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in Africa.
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So that told us that.
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She was most likely first generation African-American. Again, that was
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a while back. Of course, we knew we have no
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idea what, you know, what African nation she came from.
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But we are able to follow her.
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And it's because of North Carolina, which I think has
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the greatest records ever. North Carolina has all those wills.
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So we were able to construct a family tree for
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the white McNeils and the white McLeans. Because Joe and Jenny,
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although their name is McLean, most of their children went
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into McNeils because they were sold to the McNeils. And
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they allegedly had 14 kids. And we don't know if
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00:14:32.570 --> 00:14:35.309
all of those kids are theirs. If they're not, they're
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probably their nieces and nephews. but we have DNA to
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every last one of them. And some wheels, you can
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find them together. We even find a wheel where Joe
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and Jenny are together. And it says Joe or Jenny,
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the wife of Joe. And in several wheels, we see
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that even on the other side, who we think may
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be Joe or Jenny's sibling, which is my other fifth
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grade grandparents, it listed them as their children. And it
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We're going to give so-and-so to so-and-so who are the
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son of Jim and Lucy, son of Jim and Lucy,
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and enlist all their kids all the way across. So
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we were able to get nine children just from that wheel.
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And it said, and future increase.
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So that let us know that she could still have
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more kids.
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Not only future increase, but they also, just by saying that,
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that they will, those future increase will be.
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In bondage along with their mother.
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Yes.
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Yes.
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Wow. How long did it take you to pull all
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of that together?
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Well, I didn't put it together by myself.
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I'm telling you, Dina Hill has been a great help
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because she actually read all those probate records. And she
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took all the probate records and she put them in
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a spreadsheet. So now we have a whole book with
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all those probate records and the slaves, pulled out the
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indexed slaves out of that and put it into an
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Excel spreadsheet.
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00:16:04.320 --> 00:16:05.399
And we have a whole book for it.
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00:16:05.799 --> 00:16:09.019
But it's taken us, I think, I took my DNA
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test about 12 years ago. So, you know, some of
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00:16:13.460 --> 00:16:16.580
the stuff I had already, but this stuff, you know,
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00:16:16.940 --> 00:16:20.590
with the slaves, Joe and Jenny, you know, because they're
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my fifth great grandparents. So I could only go as
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00:16:23.990 --> 00:16:26.570
far as my great grandparents or my great, great grandparents.
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00:16:27.029 --> 00:16:28.549
The only reason I could do that because their names
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are on their death certificate. That was as far as
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00:16:31.009 --> 00:16:33.309
I could go. I mean, it wasn't until the last
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00:16:33.840 --> 00:16:36.480
maybe six or seven years that we maybe go further.
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Right.
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So you have documented, though, thousands of obituaries and written
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numerous family history books, preserved cemeteries and researched churches, plantations,
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and Rosenwald schools. Which projects have been the most meaningful
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to you and why?
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Probably the obituary collection.
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And, you know, a lot of my friends think I'm
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weird because.
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I have so many obituaries.
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And right now I think I'm up to about 8,000
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that I can count. Now there's some more that I
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00:17:14.680 --> 00:17:19.859
haven't even indexed or done anything to. But that's family history.
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Somebody can use obituary and find their family in it. And,
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you know, I use it, I create a database and
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I make that database available online for people to actually
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00:17:31.829 --> 00:17:35.259
look at and hopefully finds one of their ancestors in
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00:17:35.279 --> 00:17:38.480
their obituary database and hopefully can shed some light on
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their family history.
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That is like my prize, my pride and joy.
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And I got a few people helping me here to,
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you know, kind of put them in a database and
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put them in the sleeves. Cause I got physical, I
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00:17:52.069 --> 00:17:55.089
got the actual physical obituaries and I have them in
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alphabetical order by county. I'm up to about seven counties now. Well,
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00:18:00.519 --> 00:18:04.950
actually eight counties now. in North Carolina of obituaries. And
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so people will, and this is funny. Some people think
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00:18:08.950 --> 00:18:11.210
it's funny, but it's funny to me. Sometimes I can
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come home from work and.
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There'll be a bag on my door and I go,
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what is that? And then I get to the door
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and look at it and it'd be a bag of obituaries. Wow.
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Well, that says something about you and how the community
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views you as the person that they can trust those
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obituaries with. with you because they know that you will
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not destroy them, that you will index them and make
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them available to others.
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Yes, ma'am.
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Hats off to you. So your research now has traced
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00:18:43.089 --> 00:18:49.519
your family's story from Igbo ancestry in Nigeria, through Virginia,
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00:18:49.880 --> 00:18:55.000
enslavement in North Carolina, emancipation, Jim Crow, and the civil
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rights movement. How do you tell these difficult stories while
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00:19:01.230 --> 00:19:07.920
also celebrating the perseverance and accomplishments of your ancestors?
303
00:19:09.940 --> 00:19:12.390
Well, I just tell it.
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I don't get sad about it because I have to
305
00:19:17.819 --> 00:19:19.819
look at it as though if this.
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00:19:19.740 --> 00:19:23.119
Hadn't happened, I wouldn't have been here. I hate that
307
00:19:23.160 --> 00:19:25.440
it happened, but it happened. I wouldn't have been here.
308
00:19:26.299 --> 00:19:30.059
And or the fact that I can actually see my
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00:19:30.220 --> 00:19:33.680
ancestors in a record, even though it's a sad situation.
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00:19:33.700 --> 00:19:36.799
They've been sold for $ 50 or $ 200 or whatever, but
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00:19:36.839 --> 00:19:39.369
I can actually see their name and I can actually
312
00:19:39.430 --> 00:19:41.970
follow them. And I can actually follow some of their children,
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00:19:42.349 --> 00:19:46.809
you know, even down to Mississippi. I mean, I don't
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00:19:46.829 --> 00:19:49.049
know what was going on in Mississippi, but a lot
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00:19:49.069 --> 00:19:51.230
of the enslavers, well, I do know what was going on.
316
00:19:51.250 --> 00:19:52.250
They had land grants.
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00:19:52.349 --> 00:19:52.650
Land, mm-hmm.
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They had land grants, and a lot of them moved
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down there. So I was able to connect with so
320
00:19:58.269 --> 00:20:02.730
many people in Mississippi. I mean, there's thousands of people
321
00:20:02.750 --> 00:20:05.109
in Mississippi that I'm related to on my mom and
322
00:20:05.150 --> 00:20:09.109
my dad's side. So following that and actually being able
323
00:20:09.130 --> 00:20:13.309
to connect that I mean, even though it happened during slavery,
324
00:20:13.329 --> 00:20:15.170
you know, there's nothing I can do about that now.
325
00:20:15.690 --> 00:20:18.609
It happened. It just happened. And so now I'm excited
326
00:20:18.849 --> 00:20:20.410
that I can connect the dots.
327
00:20:21.049 --> 00:20:22.109
And a lot of my, you know, a lot of
328
00:20:22.150 --> 00:20:24.559
my friends or cousins, you know, they are, some of
329
00:20:24.579 --> 00:20:27.440
them don't, ain't too happy about it, but, you know,
330
00:20:27.460 --> 00:20:28.579
there's nothing we can do about it.
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00:20:29.240 --> 00:20:31.440
So my goal is to make the connections.
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00:20:32.519 --> 00:20:36.309
And if I make the connections, I can kind of say, okay, well,
333
00:20:36.329 --> 00:20:39.119
this happened, but This may have happened, but now we
334
00:20:39.140 --> 00:20:39.829
have this connection.
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00:20:39.849 --> 00:20:40.990
So let's look at the bright side.
336
00:20:42.109 --> 00:20:48.089
Well, you mentioned, I mean, the Igbo ancestry in Nigeria.
337
00:20:48.509 --> 00:20:51.990
So how did you make that connection? And number two,
338
00:20:52.089 --> 00:20:53.529
have you gone to Nigeria?
339
00:20:54.630 --> 00:20:59.269
Well, number one, I made that connection because one of
340
00:20:59.450 --> 00:21:05.250
our DNA cousins who is from the Utah group, his
341
00:21:05.269 --> 00:21:09.039
name was Don Ritchie. So Don Ritchie was not, he
342
00:21:09.079 --> 00:21:10.720
was in his 80s when he passed away, which was
343
00:21:10.740 --> 00:21:13.480
a couple of years ago. But he was the only
344
00:21:13.779 --> 00:21:19.039
relative known to us that was closest to slavery, because
345
00:21:19.099 --> 00:21:23.380
his grandfather was Nelson Holden Ritchie. So we used his
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00:21:23.440 --> 00:21:29.200
DNA to put in different countries. So we put in
347
00:21:29.700 --> 00:21:33.049
Nigeria because a lot of us have 30 and 40
348
00:21:33.049 --> 00:21:36.970
and 50% Nigerian. So we put in Nigeria and we
349
00:21:37.009 --> 00:21:41.529
came up with a match. My name, I forgot his name,
350
00:21:41.569 --> 00:21:44.890
but he lives in California. I think it's Ene, Ene.
351
00:21:45.710 --> 00:21:52.130
Well, Ene was a second cousin to Don. Yeah. Wow.
352
00:21:53.089 --> 00:21:55.529
And he was a second cousin and he was 50%
353
00:21:55.529 --> 00:22:04.809
Nigerian and he was 50% white. So, and the sides matched.
354
00:22:04.829 --> 00:22:07.309
So it was on his father's side and it was
355
00:22:07.509 --> 00:22:10.029
on his, I can't remember which side for NA, but
356
00:22:10.069 --> 00:22:12.670
we know it was the Nigerian side. So we were
357
00:22:12.730 --> 00:22:16.079
able to connect with him. And then he connected us
358
00:22:16.099 --> 00:22:18.559
with some other people. And then there were some other
359
00:22:18.579 --> 00:22:21.839
people that came up on the DNA that were third
360
00:22:21.880 --> 00:22:26.339
and fourth cousins to this guy. And some of them
361
00:22:26.420 --> 00:22:29.589
matched with us. So we were up to about five,
362
00:22:29.750 --> 00:22:31.720
maybe two or three years ago. Now we're up to
363
00:22:31.759 --> 00:22:36.240
about 20, and every one of them are 99% to
364
00:22:36.240 --> 00:22:41.099
100% Nigerian, Igbo. So we were able to connect with them,
365
00:22:41.420 --> 00:22:44.119
and more excitingly, we were able to participate in the
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00:22:44.259 --> 00:22:49.339
Igbo naming ceremony, not once but twice. We weren't able
367
00:22:49.359 --> 00:22:51.759
to go this year, so hopefully we can go next year.
368
00:22:52.380 --> 00:22:55.500
It's in Brunswick, Georgia, and I think a little over
369
00:22:55.500 --> 00:22:57.359
200 of us have Igbo certificates.
370
00:22:58.660 --> 00:23:03.319
Oh, right, right. So let's switch a little because you
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00:23:03.359 --> 00:23:10.359
have so many roles, but as an educator, historian, author, musician,
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00:23:10.759 --> 00:23:15.369
and genealogist, how do you hope your work will inspire
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young people and future generations to preserve their own family
374
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and community histories?
375
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Well, my hope is that the younger crowd And I
376
00:23:29.450 --> 00:23:30.450
can give you an example.
377
00:23:31.289 --> 00:23:34.849
But the younger crowd would really take hold to carry
378
00:23:34.950 --> 00:23:35.809
on this legacy.
379
00:23:36.009 --> 00:23:38.410
Because I don't want just my stuff to be, or
380
00:23:38.509 --> 00:23:41.970
anybody's stuff, just once I'm gone or once this generation
381
00:23:42.029 --> 00:23:46.509
is gone, it's just gone. For example, one of my
382
00:23:46.549 --> 00:23:50.589
cousins in South Carolina, she had probably 3,000 or 4,000 obituaries.
383
00:23:51.309 --> 00:23:52.910
And I went to her house and I almost lost
384
00:23:52.950 --> 00:23:53.490
my mind.
385
00:23:53.509 --> 00:23:57.190
Her kids kept trying to get rid of them.
386
00:23:58.019 --> 00:23:58.980
And she wouldn't get rid of them.
387
00:23:59.039 --> 00:24:00.640
Once she died, my cousin called me and said, you
388
00:24:00.660 --> 00:24:03.440
need to get down here right now and get these obituaries.
389
00:24:03.769 --> 00:24:05.789
But by the time he called over there, they had
390
00:24:05.869 --> 00:24:07.329
set them things on fire.
391
00:24:07.690 --> 00:24:08.690
Oh, no.
392
00:24:09.289 --> 00:24:11.569
Yeah, it was bad. It is what it is.
393
00:24:11.950 --> 00:24:15.809
But those things need to be preserved.
394
00:24:16.319 --> 00:24:17.799
And the only way we're going to do it, the
395
00:24:17.839 --> 00:24:23.140
young generation got to do it. Because I'm up in age.
396
00:24:23.940 --> 00:24:27.769
And all the people that I deal with, are older
397
00:24:27.789 --> 00:24:30.970
than me, actually. So we're up in age and eventually
398
00:24:31.609 --> 00:24:33.849
we're going to pass away. So somebody needs to take
399
00:24:33.869 --> 00:24:37.670
the mantle. However, last year I had the most interesting
400
00:24:37.710 --> 00:24:41.710
thing as a teacher. And I taught fifth grade and
401
00:24:41.759 --> 00:24:43.920
I didn't really want to teach fifth grade, but I
402
00:24:43.960 --> 00:24:45.900
taught fifth grade for two and a half years.
403
00:24:47.140 --> 00:24:49.759
And last year was probably the most rewarding.
404
00:24:49.319 --> 00:24:53.420
Year I've ever had because my kids was all into
405
00:24:53.720 --> 00:24:55.900
everything I did.
406
00:24:57.220 --> 00:25:01.000
And I really miss them. And I, it was so much,
407
00:25:01.059 --> 00:25:03.880
it was so, so much, there was so much in
408
00:25:03.900 --> 00:25:04.440
this stuff.
409
00:25:04.240 --> 00:25:07.150
That I did that I involved them in what I
410
00:25:07.190 --> 00:25:10.930
was doing by letting them put on a black history program.
411
00:25:10.930 --> 00:25:14.230
Outside of school and invited their parents in the community.
412
00:25:14.609 --> 00:25:19.269
And they did the whole program. I did the entire program.
413
00:25:19.730 --> 00:25:23.180
They MC, they did everything. And I sat there and
414
00:25:23.240 --> 00:25:24.740
cried the whole program.
415
00:25:26.480 --> 00:25:28.819
Because it was so overwhelming. And I still see some
416
00:25:28.839 --> 00:25:29.440
of them today.
417
00:25:30.119 --> 00:25:33.109
And I actually, for Juneteenth, I called some of the
418
00:25:33.130 --> 00:25:35.829
parents and said, I got to speak at Juneteenth program.
419
00:25:36.529 --> 00:25:38.829
And I would love for some of the kids to
420
00:25:38.869 --> 00:25:40.490
come and help me speak.
421
00:25:40.509 --> 00:25:42.759
So I would give them all a part. And I
422
00:25:42.779 --> 00:25:43.819
think six of them came.
423
00:25:44.319 --> 00:25:47.039
And it was so rewarding because they're so interested in
424
00:25:47.079 --> 00:25:50.319
the things that I do. And to me, that's what
425
00:25:50.559 --> 00:25:52.619
pouring out into this next generation is all about.
426
00:25:53.900 --> 00:25:56.940
Well, you know, I'm just listening to you and I'm
427
00:25:56.980 --> 00:26:00.470
just feeling your excitement and the fact that you have
428
00:26:00.509 --> 00:26:04.670
been an inspiration for those fifth graders to put that
429
00:26:04.750 --> 00:26:15.039
whole program together. That's amazing. Oh, yes, yes. But, you know,
430
00:26:15.079 --> 00:26:19.539
that tells you the impact that you've had on your community.
431
00:26:19.599 --> 00:26:23.549
So why is it so important, though? to document local
432
00:26:23.670 --> 00:26:28.490
institutions such as churches and cemeteries and schools and community
433
00:26:29.029 --> 00:26:31.920
organizations before their stories are lost?
434
00:26:32.839 --> 00:26:36.920
Well, a lot of their stories were lost until now.
435
00:26:38.099 --> 00:26:40.599
You know, the books I've done, I've been able to
436
00:26:40.660 --> 00:26:43.839
capture some of those church histories and put them in
437
00:26:43.880 --> 00:26:46.660
a book or some of these cemeteries that were lost
438
00:26:46.680 --> 00:26:49.109
and nobody knew anything about them or they knew about
439
00:26:49.130 --> 00:26:51.349
them and everybody that knew about them had passed away.
440
00:26:51.900 --> 00:26:53.730
And they had all these markers in it.
441
00:26:53.990 --> 00:26:57.029
But it's important to preserve that stuff because now that
442
00:26:57.069 --> 00:27:01.789
we are able to preserve it, when the next generation comes,
443
00:27:02.049 --> 00:27:03.589
they won't have to work as hard as we did
444
00:27:03.769 --> 00:27:06.609
because we're working hard to try to keep this stuff
445
00:27:06.690 --> 00:27:11.519
and preserve this stuff, cleaning cemeteries, pulling out these obituaries,
446
00:27:12.220 --> 00:27:13.200
gathering pictures.
447
00:27:14.200 --> 00:27:15.039
That's important.
448
00:27:15.359 --> 00:27:18.059
And if we don't do it and keep it and
449
00:27:18.240 --> 00:27:22.160
document it and digitize it, it could be lost.
450
00:27:22.539 --> 00:27:25.160
That's what I think is important.
451
00:27:25.619 --> 00:27:31.160
Yes, indeed. So North Carolina, and you mentioned North Carolina earlier,
452
00:27:31.240 --> 00:27:38.490
holds layers upon layers of migration, African-American history, and family connections.
453
00:27:39.089 --> 00:27:44.589
What do you believe people often overlook about Carolina ancestry?
454
00:27:45.029 --> 00:27:49.109
And what advice would you give to researchers who are
455
00:27:49.369 --> 00:27:53.460
just beginning to explore their Carolina roots?
456
00:27:57.240 --> 00:28:06.660
People often overlook obituaries. They often overlook DNA. They often
457
00:28:06.839 --> 00:28:11.019
overlook just talking to people. You know, I always tell
458
00:28:11.059 --> 00:28:15.769
people when I first started, I went, I ain't know nobody.
459
00:28:15.869 --> 00:28:17.589
I'm telling you, I ain't know none of these people.
460
00:28:18.140 --> 00:28:19.579
I used to come down here, I used to get
461
00:28:19.599 --> 00:28:22.140
on my car and I would drive to Harnett County
462
00:28:22.559 --> 00:28:23.859
and I would, they said, you need to.
463
00:28:23.839 --> 00:28:24.740
Go see Mr. Theodore.
464
00:28:25.160 --> 00:28:27.400
I would go see Mr. Theodore Campbell. I don't care
465
00:28:27.420 --> 00:28:28.839
where he was. He could be in the field on
466
00:28:28.859 --> 00:28:30.900
the tractor. He could be sitting on the front porch
467
00:28:31.269 --> 00:28:32.910
and I would just sit there and just talk to him.
468
00:28:33.289 --> 00:28:38.170
And people don't understand that information is valuable. I never
469
00:28:38.369 --> 00:28:42.710
knew my great uncle, Turner Campbell. Never knew him until
470
00:28:42.829 --> 00:28:45.190
probably maybe a year or so before he died. I
471
00:28:45.789 --> 00:28:49.150
would see him at the family reunions in the 70s,
472
00:28:49.490 --> 00:28:50.630
but I didn't know he was my uncle.
473
00:28:50.670 --> 00:28:51.549
I didn't know who he was.
474
00:28:52.569 --> 00:28:54.589
And so I went to see him and the stories
475
00:28:54.609 --> 00:28:57.349
that he told me were unbelievable.
476
00:28:58.349 --> 00:29:00.170
And so that's important. A lot of people don't look
477
00:29:00.230 --> 00:29:00.549
at that.
478
00:29:00.869 --> 00:29:02.809
They think that the stories that the older people are
479
00:29:02.829 --> 00:29:05.569
telling you are not true. Well, some of them may
480
00:29:05.690 --> 00:29:09.009
and may is questionable, but every, just about every story
481
00:29:09.029 --> 00:29:13.150
that I've heard from an older person, I found out
482
00:29:13.410 --> 00:29:14.970
was some truth to it, but it took me a
483
00:29:14.990 --> 00:29:15.890
minute to figure it out.
484
00:29:16.559 --> 00:29:19.539
Some of them 15, 20 years. But so we kind
485
00:29:19.579 --> 00:29:21.819
of overlooked that and we overlooked cemeteries.
486
00:29:22.900 --> 00:29:26.119
You know, going to a cemetery and actually looking at
487
00:29:26.140 --> 00:29:31.509
the gravestones because some of these gravestones are old. You know,
488
00:29:31.549 --> 00:29:36.210
here in Hardy County, we have about 50, 60 cemeteries.
489
00:29:36.769 --> 00:29:41.029
And a lot of them are old cemeteries from these
490
00:29:41.069 --> 00:29:45.190
churches that's founded in the mid-1800s.
491
00:29:45.630 --> 00:29:49.019
So they had a graveyard. And, you know, some of
492
00:29:49.039 --> 00:29:50.960
them had tombstones, which is unbelievable.
493
00:29:50.980 --> 00:29:53.819
You know, we got tombstones of people that died in
494
00:29:54.000 --> 00:29:54.200
the 1880s.
495
00:29:54.740 --> 00:29:58.240
We actually have a tombstone for African-Americans. So looking at
496
00:29:58.279 --> 00:29:59.170
a graveyard....
497
00:30:00.759 --> 00:30:03.920
And just other artifacts that you can research, like the
498
00:30:03.960 --> 00:30:06.339
wheels and the deeds. A lot of people overlook that
499
00:30:06.380 --> 00:30:08.609
because they don't want to read it because it's hard
500
00:30:08.640 --> 00:30:08.980
to read.
501
00:30:10.470 --> 00:30:12.009
That's the best information ever.
502
00:30:12.529 --> 00:30:15.410
Or looking at this 1870 census and looking at the
503
00:30:15.430 --> 00:30:19.329
people that surround you, around that family, most likely those
504
00:30:19.349 --> 00:30:21.369
are the people that may have been enslaved your people.
505
00:30:22.210 --> 00:30:22.410
Why?
506
00:30:22.470 --> 00:30:26.339
Because that was only five years after the emancipation. So
507
00:30:26.359 --> 00:30:28.380
a lot of them didn't leave the area or didn't
508
00:30:28.400 --> 00:30:32.069
leave the plantation, maybe or maybe not. So I had
509
00:30:32.089 --> 00:30:34.910
that example with two of my families, the McNeils and
510
00:30:34.930 --> 00:30:37.529
the Rays. They were living right next door. But I
511
00:30:37.589 --> 00:30:42.710
never explored that until probably 15 years later and found
512
00:30:42.750 --> 00:30:44.609
out those were the ones that enslaved my family.
513
00:30:44.630 --> 00:30:46.059
So I was able to do a tree on them.
514
00:30:46.430 --> 00:30:48.740
I was able to figure out how they were passed down.
515
00:30:56.279 --> 00:30:59.619
What advice? Well, the advice is to check out everything
516
00:31:00.230 --> 00:31:00.609
Check out.
517
00:31:00.589 --> 00:31:07.819
Every resource you can find to document that relative. You know,
518
00:31:07.859 --> 00:31:11.000
it's hard to find pictures of African-Americans, you know, from
519
00:31:11.019 --> 00:31:14.640
the early 1800s or the mid-1800s, but you will be
520
00:31:14.700 --> 00:31:20.230
surprised who has pictures. Met a lady probably in the 90s.
521
00:31:21.140 --> 00:31:23.839
She was in her 90s, but I thought she was
522
00:31:23.880 --> 00:31:26.660
about 70, but she looked like she was about 70,
523
00:31:26.660 --> 00:31:28.940
but she was in her 90s. And she actually had
524
00:31:28.980 --> 00:31:31.990
pictures of her great grandfather who was born in 1840s.
525
00:31:32.000 --> 00:31:37.220
And there's a picture of him and two brothers. So
526
00:31:37.240 --> 00:31:41.990
that was good information to actually have a picture. But to,
527
00:31:42.130 --> 00:31:45.930
you know, exhaust every resource you can find, you know,
528
00:31:45.970 --> 00:31:49.369
check out the cemeteries, check out the databases, if there
529
00:31:49.450 --> 00:31:50.130
is a database.
530
00:31:50.490 --> 00:31:53.730
If it's not, start one of cemeteries and.
531
00:31:53.609 --> 00:31:57.349
Obituaries and just go to the conventions.
532
00:31:57.880 --> 00:32:02.329
Conferences. I go to, you know, OGS and I participate
533
00:32:02.369 --> 00:32:03.690
in OGS. I take those classes.
534
00:32:04.009 --> 00:32:07.230
I even teach some of those classes and just learn
535
00:32:07.269 --> 00:32:10.829
all you can to try to help yourself and help
536
00:32:10.890 --> 00:32:11.369
other people.
537
00:32:12.069 --> 00:32:15.849
Right. Learn all you can. Well, Desi, I want to
538
00:32:15.950 --> 00:32:19.880
thank you for joining me on Ancestors Footprints and for
539
00:32:19.990 --> 00:32:27.390
sharing your remarkable journey of discovery, preservation, and connection. Your
540
00:32:27.430 --> 00:32:31.450
work reminds us that our ancestors' stories are not simply
541
00:32:31.529 --> 00:32:36.509
found in documents. They live in communities they built, the
542
00:32:36.670 --> 00:32:41.309
families they nurtured, and the legacies they left behind. And
543
00:32:41.410 --> 00:32:47.029
to our listeners, I hope today's conversation encourages you to
544
00:32:47.089 --> 00:32:50.910
take another look at your family history. Follow the clues.
545
00:32:51.470 --> 00:32:54.809
Listen to the stories as Desi just said to us.
546
00:32:55.789 --> 00:32:58.450
Go and talk to that older person in the community
547
00:32:58.910 --> 00:33:04.380
and pay attention to the places your ancestors traveled and
548
00:33:04.450 --> 00:33:09.579
called home. You may discover connections that reach far beyond
549
00:33:10.079 --> 00:33:16.039
what you ever imagined. And remember, every family has a story,
550
00:33:16.579 --> 00:33:22.390
every ancestor leaves footprints, and every generation has a responsibility
551
00:33:22.789 --> 00:33:27.490
to carry the story forward. which is exactly what Desi
552
00:33:27.549 --> 00:33:31.039
Campbell is doing. So I want to thank you to
553
00:33:31.319 --> 00:33:36.579
our listeners for joining us on Ancestors Footprints. If today's
554
00:33:36.839 --> 00:33:41.920
episode inspired you, please subscribe and share it with someone
555
00:33:41.960 --> 00:33:48.430
who loves history, genealogy, or storytelling. You can find Ancestors
556
00:33:48.509 --> 00:33:56.339
Footprints on Spreaker.com, Apple Podcasts, iHeart, Amazon Music, and many
557
00:33:56.460 --> 00:34:01.599
other podcast platforms. And be sure to subscribe so you
558
00:34:01.779 --> 00:34:08.750
never miss an episode. Until next time, keep exploring, keep remembering,
559
00:34:09.150 --> 00:34:13.090
keep telling the stories, and keep walking in the footsteps
560
00:34:13.590 --> 00:34:17.150
of those who came before us. This is your host,
561
00:34:17.469 --> 00:34:22.449
Bernice Alexander Bennett. Thank you so much, Desi Campbell, for
562
00:34:22.510 --> 00:34:23.809
joining me today.
563
00:34:24.590 --> 00:34:24.929
Thank you.
