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00:00:06.033Welcome to this Restorative Justice Life.
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00:00:19.550I'm your host, david Ryan, Barcega, castro-harris All five names for all the ancestors And on this podcast I speak with RJ practitioners, circlekeepers and others doing restorative work about how they embody this way of being in their personal and professional lives.
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00:00:30.071This month, as we're celebrating pride, we're highlighting conversations from the archives featuring RJ practitioners who are proudly part of the LGBTQIA Plus community.
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00:00:40.951We do this work to build a more just and equitable world for everyone, including our queer and trans community members, who are experiencing intense interpersonal, institutional and structural violence.
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00:00:48.551Amplify RJ and the RJ movement as a whole wouldn't be where it is without you, so please know that we celebrate you as you are.
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00:00:51.884We stand with you and appreciate all your contributions to our work.
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00:01:00.247While queerness is an important part of Kathy's intersectional identity, this conversation covers multiple facets of doing restorative justice work.
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00:01:11.265As always, you can find all the ways to get plugged into the Amplify RJ community, take advantage of learning opportunities or bring RJ to your school, organization or community at the links in the show notes below.
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00:01:17.186Without further ado, let's get into it, kathy.
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00:01:19.914Welcome to this Restorative Justice Life.
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00:01:20.903Who?
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00:01:21.486are you?
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00:01:24.768I'm Kathy Evans.
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00:01:36.647I'm a Mississippi girl, i'm a southerner, with all of the good and the ugly that comes with that, things that I'm both unlearning and still learning.
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00:01:44.719I love the woods, i love fishing, i love fried green tomatoes, all the southern things Like.
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00:01:48.388I believe that y'all is a perfectly respectable plural pronoun.
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00:01:51.043Who are you?
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00:01:54.463I'm a work in progress.
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00:02:01.504I am still unlearning a lot of things that were part of my development and continuing to learn and grow.
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00:02:05.888I don't believe that any of us have arrived yet.
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00:02:17.585I do believe that we are all on a journey And, if we're lucky, we find a few people who are on the same stretch of that journey, so that the road isn't so lonely.
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00:02:19.962Who are you?
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00:02:23.628I'm a nerd.
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00:02:25.572I am, i'm an academic.
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00:02:26.835I can't help it.
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00:02:30.584I love thinking, i love studying, i love reading.
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00:02:34.068I often live very much in my head.
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00:02:37.347My brain is constantly moving.
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00:02:44.794I like to drive without the radio on because I'm creating Venn diagrams and schemes in my head, right?
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00:02:48.788But I'm always thinking and I live in that cognitive domain.
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00:02:51.723When I experience a challenge, it starts here.
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00:02:57.631Now I'm learning to be more embodied and I'm learning to feel things and trust my intuition.
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00:03:04.462But my default is still nerd, it's still academic, it's still my head.
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00:03:07.444Who are you?
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00:03:29.469I am a person who thrives on meaningful relationships, those relationships where you feel seen and honored and where you get to see and honor another human being, where time stands still, sometimes because of the sacredness of the moment.
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00:03:38.564making meaning with folks over cups of coffee, two-hour lunches Those are the stuff that I thrive on.
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00:03:41.483Who are you?
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00:03:43.961I'm a dreamer.
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00:03:56.872As someone who often lives in my head, i'm constantly thinking about the next idea, the next thing, what needs to happen, perhaps three to five to 10 years down the road.
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00:04:23.110I tend to focus on the big picture, the macro level stuff, the systems and structures, and I often miss the day-to-day things, the minute-to-minute lived realities, that people are in That liminal space of both seeing what can be but acknowledging that I need realists around me who honor the dream and who can help me figure out the next step.
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00:04:26.041Who are you?
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00:04:33.129I am a person who appreciates complexity.
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00:04:37.829I appreciate conflict and ambiguity.
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00:04:48.252I love the word and This is true, and this is true even when those two things seem like opposing truths.
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00:04:55.365I love a good paradox and I believe the world is full of them If we have the courage to name and embrace them.
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00:04:58.031Haven't always been that person.
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00:05:11.630I think it's been both the most challenging part of my journey and the most rewarding part of my journey that unlearning and relearning to love and embrace complexity and paradox.
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00:05:16.387Finally, who are you?
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00:05:21.507I'm a person who loves all things peach.
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00:05:26.223I'm serious As a southerner.
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00:05:39.916I love fresh peaches, I love peach tea, I love peach schnapps, I love peach ice cream, peach cobbler Literally, if it has peaches, I'm in love Beautiful.
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00:05:40.639Beautiful.
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00:05:42.867I was like the color or the fruit.
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00:05:44.846Let me see if I can get one more out of you.
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00:05:46.182Who are you?
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00:05:49.204I'm a reflector.
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00:06:00.807I deeply believe in praxis and again, not something I grew up believing, but I grew up believing in theory, theory, rules.
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00:06:26.028Then I think one of my growth edges early on in my restorative journey was realizing that my theories without pragmatic everyday realities were landing a lot on deaf ears because people would say that sounds really lovely, but what does that look like with first graders or what does that look like in a middle school classroom?
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00:06:34.802This idea that our practice informs our theory and our theory informs our practice is very real to me.
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00:06:37.209Absolutely.
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00:06:37.790Look at us.
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00:06:44.663We've gotten past the part of this that you were most stressed out about, from here on out, smooth sailing.
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00:06:50.312You did a wonderful job with those introspective, reflective questions of who are you?
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00:06:56.588It's always good to check in To the fullest extent that you want to answer the question how are you?
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00:07:05.031Yeah, i heard you ask other people that question and I was like that's such a complex question.
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00:07:08.949I mean, we're in the middle of a global pandemic.
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00:07:15.189I feel like so many things that I thrive on are thwarted right now.
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00:07:18.846And how privileged am I?
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00:07:23.269I get to work from my office, which I love, is very comfortable.
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00:07:30.302My day-to-day reality is not dire Economically.
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00:07:36.279I'm privileged enough to be able to have a job that I enjoy About.
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00:07:37.744How am I in that big way?
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00:07:38.485I'm really good.
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00:07:51.110This summer I took time off and took care of my heart, and I hadn't done that to the extent that I did it this summer in a long time.
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00:07:57.024Like I took a whole month off of email, and you know that because I didn't respond to your initial email, right.
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00:07:59.485I've not ever done that.
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00:08:09.831I always have felt tied to my work, and yet this summer it felt like a very necessary part of restoring my soul.
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00:08:34.154In the little book of Restorative Justice and Education we have that one diagram, the ripples of relationship, and it starts with being restorative with self, and I know that looks different for different people, but for me it meant detaching from the work for a little bit so that I could show up a little bit more creative and ready to engage.
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00:08:37.639I hadn't seen my family since the beginning of the pandemic.
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00:08:43.070I could see my mom, but not my siblings, and so I spent some time with my family.
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00:08:56.610I fished a lot My family's all in Mississippi So got to hang out with my nephews and nieces and brothers and sisters.
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00:09:17.465Introduced my partner to some of my family members that she hadn't met And that was fun And honestly like surprisingly lovely, wasn't sure, and it went really well, like grace upon grace.
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00:09:22.912But yeah, detached from email was the biggest thing.
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00:09:26.450Somebody texted me and said your voicemail is full.
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00:09:33.644I responded yes, i'm leaving that way so people won't leave me voicemails and expect me to respond.
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00:09:36.145But yeah, that was really good.
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00:09:36.647I read.
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00:09:38.071I read a novel.
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00:09:44.326I haven't read a novel in probably 10 years, so, yeah, it was just a good break.
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00:09:45.750Yeah, i'm curious.
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00:09:54.826I think you guys have shared as you checked in, but you talked about coming back with creativity and openness.
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00:10:04.471Can you describe the feelings and how you think you're coming back into this new school year, having taken that rest for yourself?
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00:10:10.792I feel ever more just, centered and grounded.
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00:10:15.168I feel connected to myself again.
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00:10:31.044Sometimes you know this the work gets tedious and it feels insurmountable, and so all of my processing is about what needs to happen, what I need to do, what's the next thing on my to-do list.
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00:11:00.860And, having rested a little bit, my processing can be more about dreaming big dreams or thinking about a new vision that I have for something I want to add to a class that I'm teaching, or something that we can do at EMU to increase our students' sense of belonging, or like those kinds of the bigger ideas that maybe don't have a checklist.
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00:11:11.086You know, like I can't check it off the list and call it done, and sometimes the work becomes a checklist right, and it feels good to not have that right now.
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00:11:13.126I'm sure that that will show up again.
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00:11:16.610You know, mid-october I'll be like where's my checklist?
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00:11:28.969But for right now it feels a little bit like there's more time for dreaming and imagining, hoping, living into new ideas.
00:11:29.419 -->
00:11:34.763I feel like this is just me getting inspiration for like it's gonna be okay, the world's not gonna fall apart.
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00:11:38.682You're actually gonna come back better in some ways Because you're right.
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00:12:09.280Like that checklist can be endless, right, i think one of the interesting things about people who listen to this podcast weekly get to hear like slight behind the scenes of like my internal processes, because, like in the last couple of interviews that have aired, right, it's this idea of like this work is so urgent, we cannot rush right Is really coming through And like there are a lot of things that I personally, the AmplifyRJ platform, can be doing right now.
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00:12:17.332But that rest, that balance, that relationship with self is so important too.
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00:12:34.090You know, that might be a good space to get into the question of you know you've been doing this work for a while, right, you've got deep roots in education and you've been doing restorative justice work for a long time, probably before you knew the words right.
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00:12:37.729So, from your perspective, how did that get started for you?
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00:12:41.950Yeah, i went looking for RJ.
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00:12:44.849I didn't know what it was, but I went looking for it.
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00:12:48.347I've been a classroom teacher, taught middle school and high school.
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00:12:54.431I think that I was relational.
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00:13:09.962I had been a youth minister and a church in my former life, and then when I showed up in a classroom, like I thought I knew how to build relationships with students, but I didn't know how to build relationships with students that actually impacted their learning.
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00:13:13.788And so I taught middle school for four years.
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00:13:19.948I taught high school for four years and I think somewhere in there I realized I have no idea what I'm doing.
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00:13:34.188I need to know more than I know, and so I started figuring out what are the questions that I'm asking, and one of the questions was why are some kids motivated to learn and others aren't?
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00:13:45.451And I guess, after studying motivation theory, it seems so obvious now.
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00:13:54.832But based on my upbringing my very academic upbringing formal knowledge was prioritized, right.
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00:14:03.250So if you want to know something, you go get a degree, and that was the way I was acculturated into the learning world.
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00:14:09.244And I'll critique that a lot now, right, and I do often.
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00:14:11.410But it was where I was at the time.
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00:14:17.572And so when I started looking at the questions that I had about how I could be a better educator.
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00:14:34.368they mostly stemmed around classroom management, classroom discipline, motivation, teacher burnout all of these things seemed related to me, and so educational psychology was the thing.
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00:14:40.811And so I went and got a doctorate degree in educational psychology again nerd right.
00:14:40.811 -->
00:15:02.451And when I started doing reviews of literature on school discipline, it sent me down this rabbit hole that compelled me to ask what other models existed for addressing student behavior that didn't rely on extrinsic motivation and punishment.
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00:15:08.503And so I read about other models and they all sounded nice, but I kept looking, thinking there has to be something better.
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00:15:39.605About halfway through my grad program, i attended a family reunion in Indiana This is a funny story And I met a cousin that I had never met before And we were sitting next to each other at breakfast for one of the events And I asked her what she did for a living And she said I just graduated from the Center for Justice and Peacebuilding with a degree in restorative justice.
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00:15:42.225And I said tell me more about that.
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00:15:49.211And so she started talking about restorative justice from the criminal, legal kind of framing.
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00:15:55.106But I was like, oh my gosh, that is everything Who's doing that in education?
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00:15:58.869And she said you know, i don't know, but you might read Judy Mullet's book.
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00:16:13.123And so I went and read a book by Judy Mullet and Lorraine Stutzman Amstutz called The Little Book of Restorative Discipline And the purple one right, the purple one?
00:16:13.123 -->
00:16:20.645yes, my copy is around here somewhere, but it's all marked up And I've got sticky notes.
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00:16:24.250I had a whole conversation with Judy and Lorraine.
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00:16:25.563There you go.
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00:16:33.360I wish I could put my fingers on it real fast because it still has sticky notes all over it.
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00:16:40.052And so I read that book and they cited Howard Zaire's book Changing Lenses.
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00:16:43.645And so I went and grabbed that book And then I just couldn't stop.
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00:16:53.186I literally read everything I could find, and at the time I think there were only three or four books that really had anything to do with educational context.
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00:17:06.766And so I started taking what I was learning about in educational psychology and pulling it in with what I was learning about restorative justice and seeing like there's some really cool overlaps here.
00:17:06.766 -->
00:17:08.505There's some things that make sense.
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00:17:14.791The next year I attended an annual big, huge education conference in.
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00:17:33.342Brenda Morrison and Dorothy Van der Ring were presenting, and so I went to their session afterwards the three of us went and grabbed coffee, one of those three hour coffees where it was just sacred, and we dreamed about restorative justice in educational contexts.
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00:17:39.423And at the time again it was still about alternatives to discipline.
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00:18:05.238But over the years, like it's become so much more as I've listened again, as practice has informed my theory about restorative justice in schools, i kept hearing teachers saying and students you know students saying this as well, like you can't just change the way you do discipline if we're not changing the way we do relationships, if we're not shifting the way we build community in our schools.
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00:18:15.384It doesn't make sense to have this toxic classroom environment where so many students feel like they don't belong and they aren't honored for who they are.
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00:18:20.582But then we're gonna do this really cool restorative thing when we send them to the office, right?
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00:18:26.066And so, yeah, i listening to students.
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00:18:40.363So my dissertation research actually interviewed middle schoolers who had been in in-school suspension And I did phenomenological interviewing, which basically starts with the question so you've been in ISS lately, what was that like for you?
00:18:40.363 -->
00:18:44.684And they told stories and stories and stories.
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00:19:10.182And hearing them, hearing those middle schoolers talk about their experiences with teachers in school discipline, was really compelling for me And again just confirmed that this was the journey that I wanted to embark on, and I wanted to know everything I could know about restorative justice and how we could do different systems.
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00:19:35.763The school to prison pipeline was something that I was only just beginning to learn about right then, and hearing the students talk and seeing their lived realities again just helped me see from a student's perspective how that pipeline gets played out on a day-to-day basis, which also just compelled me to keep going.
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00:19:48.298So yeah, yeah, i love giving an expansive question like that, and what sucks about it is that there was something that you said at the very beginning that stood out to me.
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00:19:54.519Right, and being a circle person, right, i'm not gonna interrupt you, oh, but let's go back.
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00:19:59.786Yeah, absolutely, you said from your background as a youth minister.
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00:20:08.141You thought you knew how to build relationships, but when you talked about relationships that impact learning, what was the difference?
00:20:09.325 -->
00:20:09.865Oh yeah.
00:20:09.865 -->
00:20:23.904So when I was a youth minister, i can create a throw a pie on your face like event and we're gonna have a blast and everybody's gonna laugh and we're gonna have fun and people are gonna show up and be excited to be there.
00:20:23.904 -->
00:20:25.959Learning is different.
00:20:25.959 -->
00:20:37.938Like learning is hard and you're asking students to show up relationally in ways that are risky.
00:20:37.938 -->
00:20:43.141Like it exposes their vulnerability, like if a kid struggling with math.
00:20:43.141 -->
00:20:46.943Like relationship can't just be about the fun.
00:20:46.943 -->
00:20:48.818Right Relationship has to be.
00:20:48.818 -->
00:20:55.601How do I create a safe enough environment for this kid to say I'm really struggling with this math problem?
00:20:56.714 -->
00:21:00.500That's a different level of relationship and I didn't know how to do that.
00:21:00.500 -->
00:21:17.644I cared about kids and I think I could convey to them that I cared about them, but I didn't know how to check around the room, read the room, see how people were feeling.
00:21:17.644 -->
00:21:29.464I didn't know how to call out injustices and name those as infringing on someone's opportunity to be themselves in a learning space.
00:21:29.464 -->
00:21:40.903I didn't know how to not center my own experiences as the teacher as the only ones that really counted in a classroom.
00:21:40.903 -->
00:21:50.405I didn't know how to lift up the voices and the perspectives of students and honor those in ways that changed the way I taught.
00:21:50.405 -->
00:21:58.061Yeah, so much that I didn't know about those kinds of relationship, that level of relationship building.
00:21:58.414 -->
00:22:06.763Yeah, specifically going into that vulnerability that it takes to admit that you're struggling with math.
00:22:06.763 -->
00:22:34.838That's something that I experienced as a student and my struggles with math largely got alleviated with my dad creating a chant Like math is hard, math is mean, but I'm the big green math machine and then I had to like right at the end of that like third and fourth grade And I was able to have that relationship because it was my dad.
00:22:36.075 -->
00:22:40.096I don't know that a teacher would have necessarily done that.
00:22:40.096 -->
00:22:46.163Shout out to Mr Brower and Mrs Turner at the time in third and fourth grade.
00:22:46.163 -->
00:23:02.483But when just something as small as like hey, i'm having a problem with like long division, long multiplication and like I just don't get it, it takes a relationship to say that.
00:23:02.483 -->
00:23:16.741And, of course, like I have that relationship with my father, not necessarily the relationship that you know a teacher has the capacity to have with, you know, 30 different students.
00:23:16.741 -->
00:23:23.200So what are the things that, what are the ways that teachers can create some of those relationships right?
00:23:23.454 -->
00:23:32.722You know, we know restorative justice, as you were talking about restorative practices, whatever words we're using in any given moment are can be responsive.
00:23:32.722 -->
00:23:46.804But even before, like the kid gets frustrated and throws a pencil across a classroom, hit somebody and then get sent to the principal's office, right, like, what are the things in a math classroom right That are important for people to build relationships?
00:23:48.719 -->
00:24:01.759Yeah, you know, i teach teachers like that's my day-to-day job, right, and as we talk about that, like what are the things that mattered to you?
00:24:01.759 -->
00:24:08.262I spend probably the first two weeks with my college students in circle.
00:24:08.262 -->
00:24:18.105Like we start with real simple questions like that are non-threatening, like what's your favorite flavor of ice cream?
00:24:18.105 -->
00:24:25.083Cause those are like really accessible questions that don't require a whole lot of vulnerability.
00:24:25.083 -->
00:24:32.806But then we actually work together to talk about the underlying values that we share.
00:24:32.806 -->
00:24:35.422We name those as a class.
00:24:35.422 -->
00:24:41.286We develop those as we taught in, you know, in circle process.
00:24:41.286 -->
00:24:50.683Like we develop those as shared values and shared guidelines And in the process of doing that, we begin to trust each other a little bit more.
00:24:50.914 -->
00:24:56.082And I don't think it's too far-fetched to say that we can do that with first graders.
00:24:56.082 -->
00:24:59.181We have to use different language that's developmentally appropriate.
00:24:59.181 -->
00:25:02.202Like what are your shared expectations for class?
00:25:02.202 -->
00:25:13.479Like I can't use that with little kids, but how do we help children show up and name what they need in order to be in a safe learning space?
00:25:13.479 -->
00:25:20.804And it will always surprise me what people name as what they need to be in a safe learning space.
00:25:20.804 -->
00:25:40.423I need for there not to be candles, cause I have a real hypersensitive nose and it can shut me down, or I need to be able to walk around, or I need for you to use these pronouns when you speak about me or I.
00:25:40.423 -->
00:25:47.182This is my given name, but I really like this name and I'd love it if people would call me this name.
00:25:47.182 -->
00:25:53.146So I think for me like to answer your question broadly.
00:25:53.146 -->
00:26:05.799It's actually paying attention to what people say they need in order to feel safe and open to learning, and then pay attention to that.
00:26:07.075 -->
00:26:15.759Yeah, i mean, we talk about reducing restorative justice down to like being responsive to the needs of people in your community.
00:26:15.759 -->
00:26:19.740Right, you have to create the opportunities for them to share and to listen.
00:26:19.740 -->
00:26:22.077Right, yeah, that's people.
00:26:22.077 -->
00:26:33.523But then, like, it's not just checking in about those, like following up on those and being responsive to those, and it's not all just on you as a person who has the power in a classroom.
00:26:33.523 -->
00:26:37.365Right, like, how can the community contribute to all of that?
00:26:37.365 -->
00:26:51.255right, similar to how you were talking about, how is it restorative to send someone to the office and do this cool thing there and then just send them back to the classroom where there's chaos and no concrete relationships?
00:26:51.255 -->
00:26:57.587or you did, in equity, trust, respect, compassion, all those things.
00:26:57.587 -->
00:27:02.446There's so much work that can proactively be done to meet those needs.
00:27:02.446 -->
00:27:05.904I know you talk a lot about the proactive work.
00:27:07.934 -->
00:27:15.000Your entry into this work is different from some others where, like, you were exposed to like, oh, the criminal legal system and like alternatives to punishment.
00:27:15.000 -->
00:27:19.258But you were already coming from this place of like, what are the relationships?
00:27:19.258 -->
00:27:22.719right, people who listen to this know.
00:27:22.719 -->
00:27:36.762For me, it was working within the context of an employment program, trying to help people find work and like who are the fellow and friendly employers or like, but then started to think about what are the ways that we could have avoided this in the first place.
00:27:36.762 -->
00:27:48.503Part of it is like restorative alternative to the criminal legal system, but so much of it is like what are the supports that this person could have gotten in foster care right?
00:27:48.503 -->
00:27:59.505What are the supports that this person could have gotten instead of being criminalized for their mental health issues or their addiction or so many other things?
00:27:59.505 -->
00:28:17.817There's so much that needs to be done proactively within the context of school And so, like I so love that you, in the book that you and Dorothy wrote, put such this heavy emphasis on the relationships before the fact.
00:28:18.755 -->
00:28:32.063Well, what it makes me think of is the whole idea of harms, needs and obligations, right, that Howard talks about in both the little book of restorative justice and in changing lenses.
00:28:32.063 -->
00:28:42.174like, if we really wanna think about harms and needs and obligations, that feels very responsive.
00:28:42.174 -->
00:28:56.755but when you're talking about somebody who can't get a job because they have been incarcerated, and we still ask that question on our employment forms, right, we have to back up.
00:28:56.755 -->
00:29:01.020We have to back up and look what are the previous harms Like?
00:29:01.925 -->
00:29:03.535why is this person struggling to read?
00:29:03.535 -->
00:29:15.232Like what happened when they were in the first and second grade, that they didn't get the reading instruction that they needed in order for them to become a confident reader, which meant that they dropped out.
00:29:15.232 -->
00:29:17.903as, like, we have to look backwards.
00:29:17.903 -->
00:29:21.694I think the African concept of Sankofa, right, that speaks to that.
00:29:21.694 -->
00:29:25.575We have to look backwards in order to be able to move forward.
00:29:25.575 -->
00:29:41.432Like, i feel like that that's something we've failed to do often, and so we look at a discipline incident in this moment, right here, and we don't look at the huge context that brought us to this moment right here, right.
00:29:42.159 -->
00:29:47.253The things that are under the iceberg, but also like the water in which we swim.
00:29:47.273 -->
00:29:49.991Right, We were talking a couple of weeks ago on the podcast about.
00:29:51.338 -->
00:29:55.115you know, so a student punches another student, right?
00:29:55.115 -->
00:29:56.375What happened there?
00:29:56.375 -->
00:30:10.324It's actually because that student used a homophobic slur against them, right, right, and you know that is rooted in the, that is rooted in all of the homophobia that exists within, probably, the culture of the school.
00:30:10.324 -->
00:30:16.625but, like society at large, and so like what, who is obligated then to make those changes?
00:30:16.625 -->
00:30:20.720And I think, like in those moments that can seem enormous.
00:30:20.720 -->
00:30:28.666What do you say to people when they're like, i'm not responsible for dealing with all of homophobia, right?
00:30:32.867 -->
00:30:33.971I'd say, yeah, we are.
00:30:33.971 -->
00:30:36.601We all are Like we built that.
00:30:36.601 -->
00:30:44.683We built a system that is entrenched in a particular worldview and we have to unbuild that system.
00:30:44.683 -->
00:30:51.805Several years ago, i heard Jasmine's story speak at the restorative justice NACRJ conference.
00:30:51.805 -->
00:31:01.826Jasmine was talking about things that were wrong with the education system, and Jasmine identified three things.
00:31:01.826 -->
00:31:18.903One was this ridiculous hierarchy structure that we in westernized society, like, are so just rooted in and how that impacts schools.
00:31:18.903 -->
00:31:23.727A hierarchy that allows teachers to think that they have more value than students.
00:31:23.727 -->
00:31:29.401A hierarchy that allows administrators to impose things on teachers without teacher buy-in.
00:31:29.401 -->
00:31:33.203This idea of hierarchy was one of the pieces.
00:31:34.435 -->
00:32:12.954The second piece that Jasmine identified was toxic individualism And the idea that we exist in isolation, apart from others, and so Jasmine was talking about the ways in which I don't see that what happens to me is connected to what happens to you, because I live isolated, and I was really struck by that a lot.
00:32:12.954 -->
00:32:30.300The third one was this detethering of the soul, and they talked about how we've separated ourselves from who we are in our core And that we do that to the detriment of all of us.
00:32:30.300 -->
00:32:36.203Again, those are way up here kinds of things.
00:32:36.203 -->
00:32:39.358How do we fix that You can't.
00:32:39.358 -->
00:32:44.521That's a ginormous shift that has to happen.
00:32:45.974 -->
00:32:53.021But I can, in whatever realm that I have influence.
00:32:53.021 -->
00:33:01.500I can, as a teacher, for example, help my students re-tether to their soul.
00:33:01.500 -->
00:33:11.219I can resist hierarchies and help students feel like their voice matters and that I'm paying attention.
00:33:11.219 -->
00:33:26.258And I can't change the whole school, perhaps, but I can change my classroom dynamics And then, as I move into different spheres of influence, if I'm a principal like I, can change those at the school level.
00:33:26.258 -->
00:33:35.176So I think it's figuring out where is my sphere of influence and how do I leverage the influence that I have to change the things that I can.
00:33:35.176 -->
00:33:47.319I think Fania Davis talks about the individual and then the structural and then the systemic, and we have to be working at all three of those levels.
00:33:47.319 -->
00:33:50.539It's not that we can work here and ignore here.
00:33:50.539 -->
00:33:54.921All three of those have to be addressed together.
00:33:55.690 -->
00:33:56.634Yeah, for sure.
00:33:56.634 -->
00:34:15.157I'm thinking about what you said about praxis, right, And with these like heady, abstract ideas and like there's something I struggle with too, like I'm not a teacher I've never been a teacher, I have worked in schools and like I do not have all of the education that people who are teachers and have been trained in education have.
00:34:15.157 -->
00:34:17.297So I'm like these are just these principles.
00:34:17.297 -->
00:34:20.434These are things that I've seen other people do, but you gotta figure out what works for you.
00:34:20.434 -->
00:34:26.657I'm not gonna ask you like what it what you're coaching other folks to do in classrooms.
00:34:26.657 -->
00:34:38.121When we're talking about this de-tethering from these systems of oppression and domination and toxic individuals, what does that look like for you in your spheres?
00:34:39.146 -->
00:34:53.496Yeah, well, obviously it looked like taking a month off of work for saying I'm not answering emails, right, i have to re-tether to my soul and figure out where the place is.
00:34:53.496 -->
00:34:58.677And I can't tell other teachers to do that if I'm not willing to actually do that.
00:34:58.677 -->
00:35:01.577And there's a luxury in that and I get that.
00:35:01.577 -->
00:35:07.679And again, paradox, eh, there's a luxury and a privilege in being able to do that.
00:35:07.679 -->
00:35:09.494I need to name that.
00:35:09.494 -->
00:35:18.697And just because it's a privilege doesn't mean I shouldn't do it, whatever I need to do.
00:35:18.697 -->
00:35:22.215And then being able to encourage other people to do what they need to do.
00:35:22.570 -->
00:35:25.559And for me it was stepping away from email for a month.
00:35:25.559 -->
00:35:35.096For somebody else it might mean like going to a spa and I don't know, i don't get that, wouldn't ever do it.
00:35:35.096 -->
00:35:42.659That would create stress for me, right, but I'm sure for some people that would be a really good way to connect with themselves.
00:35:42.659 -->
00:35:43.320I don't know.
00:35:43.320 -->
00:35:56.295Anyway, reading a book, i don't know what it is for people, but I know that we can't just say that self-care and being restorative with ourselves is important if we don't actually do it.
00:35:56.295 -->
00:36:04.637I think I might've missed a little bit of the question I was still thinking about?
00:36:04.637 -->
00:36:07.215yes, can you come back and ask?
00:36:07.630 -->
00:36:18.614Yeah, and I'm gonna maybe frame it a little bit differently, thinking about the way that you detether from these systems within the context of your classroom what does that look like?
00:36:21.271 -->
00:36:23.157Oh, a hundred little things.
00:36:23.157 -->
00:36:25.275Like I hate grades.
00:36:25.275 -->
00:36:28.458I think grades are just like the devil.
00:36:28.458 -->
00:36:44.717I think that they're extrinsically reinforcing of all kinds of dynamics that we're trying to minimize, like who's smart and who's not, like the whole concept of intelligence.
00:36:45.369 -->
00:36:48.972When you say we are trying to who's the we Oh good.
00:36:49.375 -->
00:36:49.817Thank you.
00:36:49.817 -->
00:36:58.217The structure of schooling privileges a certain type of intelligence And I think the structure of schooling.
00:36:58.217 -->
00:37:09.478We need to shift the way that we, all of us see intelligence, And I think we're moving away from that societally.
00:37:09.478 -->
00:37:32.139But in the day to day, lived realities, this kid is still perceived as smart and this kid is not based on a GPA, which is absolutely ridiculous because it doesn't take into consideration any of the contextual factors that have set this child up to make a higher GPA than the student.
00:37:32.139 -->
00:37:54.679It also doesn't take into consideration any of the intelligences that this child brings to schooling that we don't honor, that are not honored on a daily basis in their schooling practices, And so minimizing the importance of grades would be one of the ways that I try to do that.
00:37:55.130 -->
00:37:55.592What I was gonna say.
00:37:55.592 -->
00:37:56.414What does that look like?
00:37:58.030 -->
00:38:02.916Depending on the level of students, like where they are developmentally.
00:38:02.916 -->
00:38:04.711I try to.
00:38:04.711 -->
00:38:23.378I mean, I have to have a grade, but I try to minimize the importance of that and focus more on using language that demands their own learning and not just my assignment of a grade.
00:38:23.378 -->
00:38:35.137It's more about and the comments that I give, the feedback that I give, is not about what I expect, but rather how they're making meaning of new ideas.
00:38:35.137 -->
00:38:39.264Yeah, it's hard.
00:38:39.264 -->
00:38:39.751I think that's.
00:38:39.811 -->
00:39:06.757One of the questions that I still have is how do we live restoratively in a world that doesn't often support those kinds of shifts Like, for example, silence, giving space for people to just think?
00:39:06.757 -->
00:39:10.974We suck at that.
00:39:10.974 -->
00:39:27.327One of the things that I love so much about Circle is the opportunity to hold a talking piece and be able to reflect and think before I speak.
00:39:27.327 -->
00:39:31.778Our day-to-day lived reality is very seldom that way.
00:39:31.778 -->
00:39:49.199If I pause for like a minute or 30 seconds to think about what I wanna say next, so often like somebody's gonna jump in and speak on top of me or interrupt my thought or not, let me get to that place of reflection.
00:39:49.389 -->
00:39:54.918So, yeah, I think so much of restorative justice is just counter-cultural in so many ways.
00:39:54.918 -->
00:40:06.639Yeah, and none of that addresses like things like capitalism that drives so much of what happens in schools.
00:40:06.639 -->
00:40:26.795I mean, we could throw out big words, like you know, neoliberalism and stuff like that But again all of those are just kind of structural things that tend to dictate for so many teachers what happens in their classrooms.
00:40:26.795 -->
00:40:28.215And it doesn't have to be that way.
00:40:28.215 -->
00:40:34.936But I do think that it takes all of us, working collectively, to begin to change those structures.
00:40:35.869 -->
00:40:37.014Yeah, for sure.
00:40:37.769 -->
00:40:38.815And it's what you said earlier.
00:40:38.815 -->
00:40:53.496Right, it's so important that we can't rush Like I know that that work is the long haul work, we're not gonna arrive tomorrow with that, we're not gonna change a thing, and then it has the impact that we want to have.
00:40:53.496 -->
00:40:54.360I get that.
00:40:54.360 -->
00:41:07.733That doesn't make it any less worth doing, even if it's not gonna have a direct impact which gets us all into big conversations about grant funding and stuff like that, which we won't get into today.
00:41:09.018 -->
00:41:09.498For sure.
00:41:09.498 -->
00:41:17.827All of that had me rethinking my removal of silence spaces when I edit podcasts.
00:41:19.257 -->
00:41:29.309So I'm gonna leave that part in, but so other people know, oftentimes, when you're listening to this restorative just as life, people aren't thinking of things just on the spot and brilliant.
00:41:29.309 -->
00:41:32.862A lot of times people do take those pauses.
00:41:32.862 -->
00:41:41.246I'm just reflective of my own practice, right, because I want people to be able to consume content in ways that are time efficient for them.
00:41:41.246 -->
00:41:57.045And the probably cumulative two, three, four minutes that I edit out of a podcast just from UMS, and those silent pauses What is the impact of that one way or the other?
00:41:57.045 -->
00:42:00.139I don't know the answer to that.
00:42:00.490 -->
00:42:21.275Well, i took a class when I was in grad school called discourse analysis, and we actually analyzed all of UMS in the pause and the pauses and all of the ways that people use language in order to perform all kinds of things right, and so it was really fascinating.
00:42:21.809 -->
00:42:23.275Yeah yeah.
00:42:23.275 -->
00:42:29.914No, I'm just reflective of all of my jazz, right, Yeah, like yeah.
00:42:29.914 -->
00:42:34.619And what am I trying to communicate when I use those?
00:42:34.619 -->
00:42:39.137And oftentimes it's just filler, Like so there is that as well.
00:42:39.137 -->
00:42:45.235You talked about like de-emphasizing, grading as one of those practices among hundreds of little things.
00:42:45.235 -->
00:42:47.277Are there a couple other that you wanna highlight?
00:42:48.070 -->
00:43:00.539Sure, like starting two weeks in circle, like we literally take two weeks to build relationships, and over the course of those two weeks we increasingly talk more about teaching and learning.
00:43:00.539 -->
00:43:05.858But it starts out at that experiential level Like talk about a teacher that meant a lot to you.
00:43:05.858 -->
00:43:07.735What was it about that teacher?
00:43:07.735 -->
00:43:14.978What kind of teacher do you wanna be, why are you studying teaching and what do you hope to accomplish as an educator?
00:43:14.978 -->
00:43:19.713Like those kinds of questions I think are crucial.
00:43:19.713 -->
00:44:00.554Before we get into talking about Piaget or Weigatzky or Nelnodding's or Bell Hooks, like bringing ourselves to a place where we're like oh so can we talk about Maslow And can we talk about Jeffrey Duncan Andrade And can we problematize Maslow, like all of that gets really theoretical and it's lovely and I love it, but it doesn't mean a whole lot if we haven't first situated ourselves as learners to really care about motivation, if we don't care about every child, if we don't like, if we haven't brought ourselves to that learning space.
00:44:00.594 -->
00:44:13.954So taking the time to do that and not just diving into content, I think some people would say like yeah, that's easy When you are teaching teachers about teaching.
00:44:13.954 -->
00:44:16.317what does that have to do with my math classroom?
00:44:16.317 -->
00:44:18.219What does that have to do with my history class?
00:44:18.219 -->
00:44:19.159What does that have to do with BE?
00:44:20.826 -->
00:44:26.831Yeah, and the only thing I can say to that, because I haven't done circles with fifth graders.
00:44:26.831 -->
00:44:49.719But the teachers that I work with who do circles with fifth graders tell me all the time that they spend the time building the relationships up front And it saves them so much time down their end because they're proactively building a container where learning can happen.
00:44:49.719 -->
00:44:54.509And so I guess trust teachers.
00:44:54.509 -->
00:44:59.514The teachers are saying that it matters if we build those relational pieces.
00:44:59.514 -->
00:45:03.217First It matters.
00:45:03.217 -->
00:45:07.461It matters to the students whether they show up well or not.
00:45:07.461 -->
00:45:20.259And then not just at the beginning, but working on a new writing project right now on restorative justice and education link from a pedagogical perspective.
00:45:20.259 -->
00:45:29.976Myisha Wynn has written a good bit about pedagogy, restorative justice, pedagogy.
00:45:29.976 -->
00:45:31.980Has Myisha been on here before?
00:45:32.125 -->
00:45:32.728Who is that?
00:45:32.728 -->
00:45:33.108No?
00:45:34.425 -->
00:45:36.226Myisha Wynn is a rock star.
00:45:36.226 -->
00:45:40.472I'm so grateful for her work.
00:45:40.472 -->
00:45:44.175She's a teacher educator also.
00:45:44.175 -->
00:46:06.661Her first book was Justice on Both Sides, and then she's written two books that are more directly about pedagogy, one specifically about English language arts curriculum, and then the most recent one was about pedagogy across the content areas.
00:46:06.661 -->
00:46:36.900And so thinking about pedagogical practices from a restorative justice place, using the graphic and the kind of framework that we use at EMU and that we brought up in the Little Book of Restorative Justice and Education like three big components right, nurturing healthy relationships, repairing harm and transforming conflict, and establishing just and equitable learning environments.
00:46:36.900 -->
00:46:51.449We just take those three perspectives And then we think about what can we do proactively, what can we do responsively for each of those, and then thinking about what we mean by pedagogy.
00:46:51.889 -->
00:47:02.045I like to use Carol Tomlinson's kind of taxonomy of content, process, product effect and environment.
00:47:02.045 -->
00:47:13.960And so if we think just about content, like the curriculum that we choose, how do we establish just and equitable learning environments and what adjustments to our curriculum need to happen?
00:47:13.960 -->
00:47:18.293Well, it means we need new history textbooks in a lot of situations.
00:47:18.293 -->
00:47:41.400Right, it means that our English language arts classrooms need to bring in a whole bunch of different types of literature and not the same tongue, of authors that have been part of our English classrooms for generations, that we decent her whiteness in our history and in our language arts.
00:47:41.400 -->
00:47:54.045That when we talk about math and sciences, that we acknowledge that there are lots of mathematicians and scientists that are underrepresented in our thinking about math and science.
00:47:54.045 -->
00:48:00.938And so how do we adjust our curriculum and our content in order to be more just and equitable?
00:48:01.527 -->
00:48:02.190Yeah, and.
00:48:03.114 -->
00:48:05.005I could go for days on that, but I'll stop.
00:48:05.304 -->
00:48:11.697Yeah, i was going to say like and none of that is an overnight process, none, yeah.
00:48:11.697 -->
00:48:20.976And those each deserve like podcasts of their own and like books, and so shout out to Carol, and I already forgot.
00:48:20.996 -->
00:48:21.376My Asia.
00:48:22.125 -->
00:48:32.918My Asia about those folks and we can link those in the bio and like, proactively, i'm going to say, hey, maybe that's one of the people that I'm going to ask you to hit me up with to be on this podcast.
00:48:32.918 -->
00:48:47.351You know you've continued to do this work And I appreciate you know the way that you and Dorothy approached the little book of restorative justice and education, also appreciative of knowing about my issues.
00:48:47.351 -->
00:48:56.456But because I didn't know about that as well, a lot of times people ask me about resources, books around restorative justice, specifically in education.
00:48:56.456 -->
00:49:23.777I shout out you and Dorothy's book, the little book of restorative justice and education Circle forward from Kay and Carolyn and living justice press, primarily because of the books out there like those are two that like really make clear from the jump that like this work is rooted in indigenous ways of being right.
00:49:23.797 -->
00:49:35.018This work isn't like a social science that has developed in the last like 3040 years And, like I know that you all aren't the only people who are writing, those are the only two that come to mind.
00:49:35.018 -->
00:49:38.208What are some of you just shouted out my issues?
00:49:38.208 -->
00:49:41.494Are there any others that, like really help folks within?
00:49:41.494 -->
00:49:45.239like education, lean into restorative justice practices?
00:49:46.125 -->
00:49:53.335Yeah, i Christina Parker is out of Canada has a chapter in the colorizing restorative justice.
00:49:53.335 -->
00:49:56.159So big shout out to colorizing restorative justice.
00:49:56.159 -->
00:50:03.737I for a while I was like, yeah, i'm not going to speak anymore or write anymore.
00:50:03.737 -->
00:50:13.518All I want to do is tell everybody to go read colorizing restorative justice and then, when everybody's done that, then we can resume conversations, because I feel like it's groundbreaking.
00:50:13.518 -->
00:50:14.565I really do.
00:50:14.565 -->
00:50:19.536I feel like the restorative justice world needed that book, needs that book desperately.
00:50:21.065 -->
00:50:22.507Christina Parker is in Canada.
00:50:22.507 -->
00:50:26.396She writes about schooling practices, but Tina loves book.
00:50:26.396 -->
00:50:28.905We have to do more than survive.
00:50:28.905 -->
00:50:45.699I think is crucial to our understanding of like abolitionist teaching and what needs to happen in schools in order to make space for everyone to show up as learners in good and healthy ways.
00:50:45.699 -->
00:50:57.014and yeah, so our undergrad students did a book study on Bettina loves book last year and it was pretty transformative for them.
00:50:57.014 -->
00:51:04.085I mean I could hear in their tone like, oh, my goodness, like we have to read this book, everybody has to read this book.
00:51:04.085 -->
00:51:13.518I want everybody to, you know, release a delpit's work and Sonya Nieto's work and I mean there's more.
00:51:13.518 -->
00:51:18.532And she has a new book on trauma and restorative justice that thinks critical.
00:51:22.126 -->
00:51:37.460And, yeah, you know, several years ago I did a good audit of my syllabi, the course documents that I was providing to my students, the things that I was inviting them to read.
00:51:39.085 -->
00:51:50.574I realized like so many of the authors were white authors talking about restorative justice, and it was super important for me at that point.
00:51:51.094 -->
00:52:08.068I was using a textbook in my undergrad classes and I ditched the textbook completely and still have to teach Maslow and by God ski, and I'm not going to read today and all of these like educational psychology people, but I want to.
00:52:08.068 -->
00:52:30.230I want to read them alongside more contemporary and particularly authors of color right, who represent the global majority and represent perspectives that aren't held by textbook authors necessarily, and so I think that it's important in the RJ work.
00:52:30.230 -->
00:52:51.307For me it's important that I continue to find ways to de center whiteness as the dominant narrative and look for ways to re center or center for the first time in many cases right The perspectives of people that have been disregarded for years.
00:52:51.307 -->
00:53:15.173I don't say that is some like grandiose vision, but like it's a matter of looking through my syllabus and realizing, oh, like this is not balanced, it's not representative and it's not honoring of the roots of restorative justice, and so and a change that as we've heard so much about doing this work is the practice, but it's always great to have some fundamentals.
00:53:15.554 -->
00:53:23.065So if you want to tap into the intro to RJ racial and restorative justice course, the link to engage in that learning is in the show notes.
00:53:23.065 -->
00:53:35.295If you want to go deeper in your practice or explore other aspects of doing work that is restorative and building a better world for future generations, we have learning opportunities for you to, both in courses and live workshops.
00:53:35.295 -->
00:53:42.822If you're in a community school or organization that would benefit from this learning, we're more than happy to get on a call with you to talk about how we can support this work in your context.
00:53:42.822 -->
00:53:53.318Whether organically or not, it always comes up in interviews, conversations that I have with the handful of white folks that have been on these airwaves, and that's intentional, right.
00:53:53.318 -->
00:54:00.132What do you see as your role as a white person who has done a lot of work in restorative justice?
00:54:00.132 -->
00:54:05.278like your experience, you have a lot to contribute, but what do you see as your role in this work now?
00:54:07.065 -->
00:54:40.896Again decentering whiteness and not white people, but decentering whiteness as that construct, that very Eurocentric way of thinking, and like I'm still learning what that looks like, i know that, for example, the lists of things to do is a very white thing, it's very white dominant, so that I become more consumed with accomplishing things that I do, about actually attending to people who are sitting right in front of me, right.
00:54:40.896 -->
00:54:55.994Other ways that whiteness shows up for me is like this utilitarianism, and I heard it in my voice earlier.
00:54:55.994 -->
00:55:02.561I heard it in something I said oh, that we do circles because it takes time now but saves time later.
00:55:02.561 -->
00:55:05.987That's whiteness, you know.
00:55:05.987 -->
00:55:12.355That's like we've got to make sure that we're being efficient, and the ways in which those show up.
00:55:12.355 -->
00:55:34.880I'm still, i want to be reflective enough to go oh, that's what that was, and then try to figure out how to undo those, the things that Jasmine talked about hierarchies and individualism, like those things also like so steeped in white colonizing practices, and so how do we like begin to push back against those?
00:55:34.880 -->
00:56:03.219So, as a white person, i think naming those for myself is a place to start, and I mean I'm teaching at a university that's very much like white students, and so I think for me, working intentionally with my white students to help them to begin asking questions, that it took me a long time to begin asking Thank you for that.
00:56:03.219 -->
00:56:17.436that might mean, like encouraging them to read colorizing restorative justice or Bettina Love's book or Maisha Wynn's books, encouraging them to look to other sources for knowledge.
00:56:17.795 -->
00:56:36.213I think another way it looks for me is to acknowledge that my perspective about restorative justice is always influenced by my whiteness, and so how do I like?
00:56:36.213 -->
00:56:46.864right now it was really important I'm co-teaching with a woman of color, a black woman, who came through our restorative justice and education program.
00:56:46.864 -->
00:56:50.936That was intentional, because I don't know what I don't know.
00:56:50.936 -->
00:57:06.166She's brilliant in and of herself, of course, but I don't ever want to show up for I don't want to be the thing I don't want to be the white sage on the stage.
00:57:06.166 -->
00:57:23.414I want to find ways to dissenter, dissenter me And yet, by the virtue of my job, i often find myself in that place, and so can I be intentional about finding ways to not do that.
00:57:23.414 -->
00:57:31.409So, yeah, those are just a couple of things that pop out.
00:57:31.409 -->
00:57:33.132Did I even answer your question?
00:57:33.760 -->
00:57:39.193Yeah, there's no right answer to that question right.
00:57:39.193 -->
00:57:47.913It's really like a reflection of like you know where you're at in wrestling with this, because I'm working progress.
00:57:48.659 -->
00:57:55.972Yeah, for sure, and I appreciate the vulnerability that it takes to share that.
00:57:55.972 -->
00:58:41.467I was reflecting a little bit earlier about, like you know, whenever there are people of the global majority in new roles, it's like what does it like to be this oppressed person in this space, right, and thinking about, like flipping the question to folks like you know, especially in this moment that we're in now and I know like people have issues with like this moment, right, like this has always been a necessary conversation, but I know people like yourself have been more reflective over the last couple of years about, like, what does it mean to continue to do this work that we believe in in a way that, like to your point, is dissentering whiteness and is, you know, undoing the harm, not undoing repairing the harm?
00:58:42.670 -->
00:58:43.552The extent possible.
00:58:43.552 -->
00:58:44.614The extent possible right.
00:58:46.119 -->
00:58:47.282It is your obligation.
00:58:48.385 -->
00:59:11.849It is Yeah, yeah, and, and I don't know all that I need to know And I'm doing my darnedest to study and to read, but all of that's up here kind of stuff, and so part of the work is to partner with other leaders in the field of restorative justice who represent the global majority and who I can learn from, and with right.
00:59:11.849 -->
00:59:30.230So Dorothy and I recently did a presentation or a kind of a conversation with Sky Bowen from Canada and Cheryl Wilson, and the four of us just had a really you know, really lovely.
00:59:30.230 -->
00:59:45.289We've had two now, just lovely conversations with the four of us about whiteness and how whiteness shows up in restorative justice and how do we de-center it, how it causes harm and how do we address that harm.
00:59:45.289 -->
00:59:48.161Name it first, right, reckon with it.
00:59:48.161 -->
00:59:51.509Which is another book that I'm reading right now?
00:59:51.509 -->
00:59:56.304Danielle Sared's book Until We Reckon, and it's it's knocking my socks off.
00:59:56.304 -->
00:59:59.972I'm really enjoying it in in that good meaty kind of way.
01:00:00.300 -->
01:00:01.965Yeah, yeah, absolutely.
01:00:01.965 -->
01:00:05.313You shouted out.
01:00:05.313 -->
01:00:11.246Well, dorothy's been on this podcast, cheryl's been on this podcast, sky been talking to trying to get to.
01:00:11.246 -->
01:00:17.940Danielle, we're gonna get there with all of those folks.
01:00:17.940 -->
01:00:28.043I want to transition into the questions that I ask everyone, and you know this I sometimes I think about it as a speed round.
01:00:28.043 -->
01:00:33.253It rarely is very speedy, but we'll go where we go For you.
01:00:33.253 -->
01:00:35.103Define restorative justice.
01:00:38.289 -->
01:00:49.391Respect, dignity, mutual concern, belief that all people are worthy and relational focus on relationships and justice and equity.
01:00:51.954 -->
01:00:56.945What's been oh shit moment as you've been doing this work And what have you learned from it?
01:00:57.706 -->
01:01:02.824Yeah, i, i heard you ask that question And I knew you were going to ask this question.
01:01:02.824 -->
01:01:36.422You know, early in my restorative justice work here at EMU even I was at a conference And I I felt like a big wig at the conference was responsible for some things And at the end of one of the days, a black man came to me and expressed that he had experienced a racial microaggression and he felt deeply harmed and he wanted me to do something about it.
01:01:36.422 -->
01:01:50.496I was busy And I didn't have time to address his harm in the moment because I felt like my to-do list was more important.
01:01:50.496 -->
01:01:58.795I was responsible, i was important, i centered me and I caused harm, deep harm.
01:01:58.795 -->
01:02:02.021I got defensive when I got called out for calling the harm.
01:02:02.021 -->
01:02:18.172I did all of the wrong things And it took a mentor, respected mentor, calling me on the phone and very kindly but very directly, shining a light on my very colonizing practice.
01:02:18.172 -->
01:02:25.250She said, kathy, you have a lot to offer the field of restorative justice, but you're going to have to become more racially savvy than this.
01:02:25.250 -->
01:02:27.943Oh, i hate that.
01:02:27.943 -->
01:02:29.628Oh, it was.
01:02:30.009 -->
01:02:39.755It was such a humbling moment for me because, like I had screwed up royally and I saw it in that moment.
01:02:39.755 -->
01:02:43.822And yet there was grace upon grace and it was a real turning point for me.
01:02:43.822 -->
01:03:27.163It pushed me to do a lot more deep reflection about the role of my whiteness in my own restorative justice work, about my tendency to prioritize the big picture over the minute-to-minute relational interactions, and it pushed me to stop and pause and listen to people when they say this is what I felt and what I need And I regret deeply the harm that I caused that man And I still feel like that is not repaired.
01:03:27.163 -->
01:03:28.346It bothers me.
01:03:28.346 -->
01:03:33.903There's still something that needs to happen there And I don't know exactly what it is.
01:03:33.903 -->
01:03:36.349And I regret that moment.
01:03:36.349 -->
01:03:53.748I don't regret the deep learning that came as a result of that and how it shifted the trajectory of my whole life, pushing me to learn and to keep figuring stuff out.
01:03:53.748 -->
01:03:55.972It's a humbling moment.
01:03:55.972 -->
01:03:58.034It was an oh-shit moment for sure.
01:04:00.079 -->
01:04:06.623We've talked a lot about how restorative justice and this work has existed within the professional realm.
01:04:06.623 -->
01:04:12.039for you, what about in your personal life, this restorative justice life?
01:04:14.246 -->
01:04:19.882Yeah, i often said I wouldn't be in a relationship with my family right now if it wasn't for restorative justice.
01:04:19.882 -->
01:04:21.447I love my family deeply.
01:04:21.447 -->
01:04:22.710We're super close.
01:04:22.710 -->
01:04:44.201Growing up we were really really tight as I began to shift in my political and religious ideals And then several years ago when I came out to my family, it all but severed some of that And it was really hard for a few years.
01:04:45.222 -->
01:05:05.170And I'm not sure that if I hadn't embraced restorative justice as a way of being and not just as a thing I do in schools, i'm not sure if I would have had the skills or the ethic to persist in that relationship.
01:05:05.170 -->
01:05:25.336And so the summer when my partner and I went to meet my family and to visit with them again talk about grace upon grace right, there were good relationships there And we still disagree lots And we're still on really big ends of spectrums in a lot of ways.
01:05:25.336 -->
01:05:37.005And yet the respect, the dignity is still there And the relationship is still there And I'm really grateful for that.
01:05:37.005 -->
01:05:42.534I think it also impacts the way I interact with colleagues who see the world differently.
01:05:42.534 -->
01:05:48.659I think it impacts the way I treat myself when I screw up.
01:05:48.679 -->
01:05:56.871Yeah, Yeah, relationship with yourself always is a part of that.
01:05:56.871 -->
01:06:00.681You get to sit in circle with four people, living or dead.
01:06:00.681 -->
01:06:03.289Who are they and what's the question?
01:06:03.289 -->
01:06:04.052you ask the circle.
01:06:05.661 -->
01:06:11.262I've been asked before if you could have a conversation with anybody, who would you want to have a conversation with?
01:06:11.262 -->
01:06:21.233I probably would probably go to my ancestors.
01:06:21.233 -->
01:06:49.302I realize, as a white person who is a descendant of white people who were settlers on this land, i don't know that history, i don't know those practices, and so when I think about being a southerner from Mississippi, i don't know the stories.
01:06:49.302 -->
01:06:55.414I don't know the stories of how it came to be that my family settled here.
01:06:55.414 -->
01:07:01.329I don't know the stories of how they became landowners.
01:07:01.329 -->
01:07:06.342I can make assumptions, but I don't know those stories.
01:07:06.481 -->
01:07:33.599And so I would my great-great grandfather on all four sides of my immediate family perhaps, or my great-great-grandmothers to hear their stories about what their life was like And did they know that when they staked their claim that they were, were they aware?
01:07:33.599 -->
01:07:41.902like, to what extent did they have awareness that they were staking a claim in land that wasn't theirs?
01:07:41.902 -->
01:07:42.985And did they?
01:07:42.985 -->
01:07:44.371did they name those things?
01:07:44.371 -->
01:07:52.514Yeah, i'd want to understand that history a little bit more so that I can just reckon with my own history a little bit.
01:07:52.514 -->
01:08:01.847I feel like there's a blank space in my self-awareness because they don't have access to those stories.
01:08:02.648 -->
01:08:12.570Yeah, or whether it was just like, and like they probably wouldn't use the term manifest destiny to describe that either, Of course not right Of course they wouldn't.
01:08:12.786 -->
01:08:17.122But you know, they would have framed it as religious freedom.
01:08:17.122 -->
01:08:19.386perhaps I don't know.
01:08:19.386 -->
01:08:20.167I want to know.
01:08:20.488 -->
01:08:21.850Yeah, for sure.
01:08:21.850 -->
01:08:26.626We've talked about this work largely in the context of schools.
01:08:26.626 -->
01:08:28.411We talked about it in the criminal legal system.
01:08:28.411 -->
01:08:42.060I'm curious if there's a specific situation whether it is historical, fictional or in your life that you've experienced recently where you wish someone or where you wish people really knew this work.
01:08:45.805 -->
01:09:20.771Yes, our local county school district is grappling a lot with three big issues mask mandates, critical race theory and transgender bathroom policies And we have so created dichotomies on all three of those fronts that nobody can even have conversations that are even somewhat remotely productive And we just yell each other down.
01:09:20.771 -->
01:09:28.997Right, there's just you're the devil and you're the devil, and nobody's actually having conversations.
01:09:28.997 -->
01:10:15.345And I wish desperately that we could take some of the values and the guidelines of circle, we could establish those norms together of listening Not that we all agree I'm not looking for us to agree on things But I am wishing that we could not vilify one another, that we could actually pay attention to one another and maybe have some more productive conversations about those three topics.
01:10:15.345 -->
01:10:17.451That might get us somewhere together.
01:10:18.835 -->
01:10:34.113I know that I'm not willing to bend on transgender bathrooms, but I also would like to express that this is so much bigger than bathrooms And if we're only having conversations about bathrooms, we're missing the point.
01:10:34.113 -->
01:10:45.913Can we back up and realize that we're talking about honoring the dignity of every child and every educator in a school building?
01:10:45.913 -->
01:10:49.231Bathrooms is a small expression of that.
01:10:49.231 -->
01:10:57.773Bathrooms are part of that, but also just being seen and honored for who you are and what you bring to a learning community.
01:10:57.773 -->
01:11:09.890Can we get out of this very narrow focused thing and actually find the humanity in it, instead of just arguing or talking?
01:11:09.930 -->
01:11:10.230points.
01:11:10.230 -->
01:11:24.595I think what's hard for me about these things is you said like you're not looking for agreement, but that sounded to me like I'm not going to bend.
01:11:24.595 -->
01:11:29.793So where is that space?
01:11:29.793 -->
01:11:31.318Because I agree with you.
01:11:31.318 -->
01:11:58.613I agree with you If we're talking about mask-managed, we're literally talking about life and death, and I think similarly, in some ways, you have to take the connections to mental health and psychological well-being with folks who do not fall within the gender binary To also say this is a life and death thing.
01:11:59.045 -->
01:12:00.569How are you not looking for agreement?
01:12:03.805 -->
01:12:08.716Can it be one of the paradoxes that I wrestle with and sit with ambiguity?
01:12:08.716 -->
01:12:19.927I believe that there are things that support the well-being and the sense of belonging for all of us.
01:12:19.927 -->
01:12:27.396I think there are things that violate the well-being and that sense of belonging.
01:12:27.396 -->
01:12:33.095Obviously, what is something that I privilege?
01:12:33.095 -->
01:12:35.507Well-being and belonging.
01:12:35.507 -->
01:12:41.296But I think everybody should prioritize well-being and belonging of everybody.
01:12:41.296 -->
01:12:53.896And if I push on that person that I know was protesting the transgender bathroom, they would say that they also care about the well-being and the belonging of all of our children.
01:12:53.896 -->
01:13:04.113I think that they would say that, as long as it doesn't interfere with their personal rights.
01:13:04.113 -->
01:13:11.076So I want to give the benefit of the doubt to that person.
01:13:11.076 -->
01:13:17.496But I also know that I've never actually heard them talk in a one-on-one kind of situation.
01:13:17.496 -->
01:13:18.557That's not true.
01:13:18.557 -->
01:13:20.250I grew up with those ideas.
01:13:21.627 -->
01:13:29.166I was going to say here in my liberal bubble of California, my curated interactions on social media.
01:13:29.166 -->
01:13:32.613I only have my.
01:13:32.613 -->
01:13:34.677I do have a limited view of the world.
01:13:34.677 -->
01:13:45.148I was curious because you do live in Virginia, right College town And you were within university setting, but you're still amongst people and the people that you grew up with.
01:13:45.148 -->
01:13:50.068Do you have those views, oh man?
01:13:50.845 -->
01:13:54.369I know right How do I talk about that.
01:13:54.369 -->
01:14:00.305One of the questions that you asked in somebody else was what values keep you going?
01:14:00.305 -->
01:14:01.509which values are difficult?
01:14:01.509 -->
01:14:03.649For me, they're the same ones.
01:14:03.649 -->
01:14:05.829Which ones keep me going?
01:14:06.045 -->
01:14:12.935It's dignity, It's vulnerability, brave spaces, open-mindedness and a commitment to personal growth.
01:14:12.935 -->
01:14:15.470Which ones are difficult?
01:14:15.470 -->
01:14:16.448All of those.
01:14:16.448 -->
01:14:19.729They're difficult to live into.
01:14:19.729 -->
01:14:31.894Those I'm open-minded until you start talking about refusing to get a vaccine And then, all of a sudden, yeah, I'm not so open-minded.
01:14:31.894 -->
01:14:39.259I don't know what open-mindedness means when I'm talking to people who are anti-science.
01:14:39.259 -->
01:14:45.507I don't know how to treat someone with dignity when they refuse to treat our transgender students with dignity.
01:14:45.507 -->
01:15:00.018I don't know how to create brave spaces with people who are going to use that space to vilify certain populations of our students or teaching.
01:15:00.018 -->
01:15:04.694So I value those things, but they're really difficult to live into.
01:15:04.694 -->
01:15:10.935Yeah, I think that's one of the complexities of restorative justice work.
01:15:10.935 -->
01:15:23.520If I really believe that every person is worthy and relational, then I can't just write off this person who stands in direct contradiction to everything that I believe.
01:15:23.520 -->
01:15:29.595And yet, how to live out my values in that relationship while not compromising on what I believe?
01:15:29.595 -->
01:15:32.811Those are hard minutes, I don't know.
01:15:33.514 -->
01:15:49.921Yeah, Oh man, Yeah, It's messy, because I think about any one of us can say, like that's not my lane, I don't have the capacity to work with quote unquote those people.
01:15:50.823 -->
01:15:50.965Right.
01:15:51.594 -->
01:15:52.181Well then, who's in?
01:15:52.181 -->
01:15:54.350I think there's a lot of merit to that right.
01:15:54.350 -->
01:16:08.637We can only work where, in some places where the doors are open, people are willing to hear us, And some of this work is changing those people's minds is impossible and is not my job.
01:16:08.637 -->
01:16:12.012But that's not being dismissive of them.
01:16:12.012 -->
01:16:15.512That's just saying I can only control what I can control.
01:16:15.512 -->
01:16:17.610I can only work in the spaces where I can work.
01:16:18.405 -->
01:16:20.632Well, and I think that's different for everybody.
01:16:20.632 -->
01:16:45.295For example, talking with white people who still have really pejorative views of people of color, people from the global majority, like I probably have a greater capacity because I grew up with that And like that's part of my journey is unlearning that stuff And I probably, as a white person, have a greater capacity to sit and talk with white people.
01:16:45.295 -->
01:16:52.335I don't have the capacity to sit and talk with people who are homophobic.
01:16:52.335 -->
01:17:09.511I'll get quickly triggered and irritated and it's not healthy for me to sit and listen to people talk about their views of LGBTQ folks, so I don't have the capacity for that.
01:17:10.664 -->
01:17:14.506Somebody should do that, but just shouldn't be me, and so I think it.
01:17:14.506 -->
01:17:23.113For me, it depends on what you do have the capacity for, and I should go talk with more white people.
01:17:23.113 -->
01:17:31.210I should have those conversations because I think I have the capacity to do that, but I shouldn't expect everybody to do that.
01:17:31.210 -->
01:17:45.130The work is big and we all have a role to play and we should play our role and do what we can, but I can't expect everybody to do what I can do, and nor can I do what other people can do.
01:17:46.212 -->
01:17:49.131Right, Yeah, does that make sense.
01:17:49.131 -->
01:17:51.427Yeah, for sure, for sure.
01:17:51.427 -->
01:17:57.716And like the urgency of like we need to tell everybody, we need to get everyone in.
01:17:57.716 -->
01:18:08.930Fourth is in such conflict, what is one thing, a mantra or affirmation, or maybe something else that you wish everyone listening to this podcast could know?
01:18:11.364 -->
01:18:52.752I'm thinking about a dear colleague who recently got some bad news And I'm going to rely on her mantra, which is I can do hard things And I know that she is naming that for herself right now And I'm going to borrow that from her in this moment to say like I think we can do hard things And sometimes we I I'll say I, sometimes I shy away from those difficult things And I need more badassery in my life to show up for the hard stuff.
01:19:00.453 -->
01:19:06.425Yeah, yeah.
01:19:06.425 -->
01:19:17.554See that silence is appropriate within the context of this conversation, but how much silence is appropriate for a listener?
01:19:17.554 -->
01:19:26.970Yeah, I know That's right, you kind of already answered this, but who's one person that should have on this podcast?
01:19:26.970 -->
01:19:27.572and you got a?
01:19:29.327 -->
01:19:29.929I should.
01:19:30.371 -->
01:19:30.731Perfect.
01:19:30.731 -->
01:19:32.630Well, we'll get that in.
01:19:33.805 -->
01:19:38.756I don't even know that I can facilitate that connect because I don't know that I'm in.
01:19:38.756 -->
01:19:43.612I mean, i don't know that I'm the person to make that connection happen.
01:19:43.712 -->
01:19:48.439But we will find a way.
01:19:48.439 -->
01:19:50.149We will find a way.
01:19:50.149 -->
01:19:54.515Is there someone else who you would love to see in conversation here?
01:19:55.626 -->
01:20:10.167I did my initial circle training with Oscar and Jamie in St Paul, jamie Williams, oscar I wish I could tell you Oscar's last name, oscar.
01:20:10.167 -->
01:20:11.774I tell this story all the time.
01:20:11.774 -->
01:20:19.153When I'm talking about restorative justice circle process, teachers will say but what about the student who refuses to participate?
01:20:19.153 -->
01:20:41.467And I always, always, always tell the story that Oscar told in our circle training about working in a juvenile detention center with young men who were incarcerated for violent offenses And he, oscar, was doing circles with them And a new student came.
01:20:41.507 -->
01:20:56.978A new young man came to the juvenile detention center and just wouldn't even come and sit in the circle, set in the corner of the room And after it took months for that student to even come sit in the circle.
01:20:56.978 -->
01:21:13.795And even after that that student continued to pass for a while And then one day the talking piece came to that young man and he just opened up and shared about his life and all that had happened that brought him to this place.
01:21:13.795 -->
01:21:40.275And Oscar had shared that story as a way to say like kids will show up when they feel safe And for some of our students it takes a little while longer for them to feel that sense of safety and it's our job to create that space, but then also to allow them to be the ones to decide when it is that they feel safe enough to show up.
01:21:40.275 -->
01:21:48.456Anyway, i'll always remember that story and I share it everywhere, so I'm really grateful for the circle training that I had with Oscar and Jamie.
01:21:49.287 -->
01:21:50.572Yeah, absolutely.
01:21:50.572 -->
01:21:52.569Thank you so much.
01:21:52.569 -->
01:22:00.908You can't force someone into being restorative In the meantime.
01:22:00.908 -->
01:22:10.632And if you're thinking about a time when people are resistant to being accountable for the harm that they cause, what do you do then?
01:22:10.632 -->
01:22:20.112There's one answer where it's like, you give them the choice of hey, here's this restorative process that you can participate in.
01:22:20.112 -->
01:22:26.332It's hard, but I think it'll be beneficial And we do have these punitive measures that we can take right.
01:22:26.332 -->
01:22:28.990That's still giving people choice.
01:22:28.990 -->
01:22:30.631It's often a veiled threat.
01:22:30.631 -->
01:22:32.229It's still there.
01:22:32.229 -->
01:22:34.829There's this other space of like.
01:22:34.829 -->
01:22:45.578What are the other ways that we can address needs, meet needs for people who have been harmed, while we're still building safety to deal with this person?
01:22:46.244 -->
01:22:51.654Yeah, for sure, and I think yeah, absolutely, that has to happen.
01:22:52.944 -->
01:23:19.791I just thought of somebody else because a little while ago I wrote a policy brief with Anne Gregory And in there we identified five mis-implementation models for restorative justice in schools And one of them was a top-down coerced model And it just doesn't work.
01:23:20.164 -->
01:23:55.719Like we've seen evidence after evidence that when we require people to do restorative justice stuff and it doesn't come from a place of like I want to do this, like it actually can cause more harm than good And so yeah, so that was one And it made me think of that when we were talking about you can't mandate people to show up for restorative justice, Like it's not a thing you can make somebody do and expect to have good outcomes for sure.
01:23:55.719 -->
01:24:00.295So anyway, anne might be a fun person to have.
01:24:00.295 -->
01:24:04.654Anne would bring a completely different perspective.
01:24:04.654 -->
01:24:38.275Anne is an educational researcher and has done a lot of deep dive into what we call research on restorative justice and why so much of the research doesn't tell us what we're looking for because it's limited to numbers and trends and misses some of the components that might help us understand, like the relational pieces.
01:24:38.275 -->
01:24:50.753Anyway, anne's fun to talk to as a different kind of different framing of the world And I really appreciated working with her on that policy brief.
01:24:52.024 -->
01:24:56.154For sure, we've kind of come to this haphazardly.
01:24:56.154 -->
01:25:03.448But last question is how can, how and where can people support your work in the ways that you want to be supported?
01:25:05.605 -->
01:25:07.453Yeah, i thank you for that question.
01:25:07.984 -->
01:25:09.411I mean I love what I'm doing.
01:25:10.046 -->
01:25:46.813I don't think it's the only way, but when I was studying to be a teacher educator and kept hearing people say, man, i wish I'd learned about this when I was studying to be a teacher rather than having to learn about it post facto, it just seemed logical like we should build in restorative justice to our teacher preparation programs, and so one of the reasons I came to Eastern Mennonite University was to hopefully build a restorative justice and education program.
01:25:46.813 -->
01:26:14.137I think we might be one of very few teacher ed programs that actually offers courses on restorative justice as part of the teacher preparation curriculum, but I'd love to see that become more commonplace because, as teachers are developing their understanding of what it means to be a teacher, like they're learning about what it means to be restorative as an educator.
01:26:14.137 -->
01:26:20.588So I think just thinking about how can we teach teachers in ways that are restorative, how can we model that?
01:26:20.588 -->
01:26:23.170How can we build that into our teacher prep program?
01:26:23.170 -->
01:26:39.074We also have a graduate program and it's now online so people can access the restorative justice and education graduate certificate like from anywhere.
01:26:39.074 -->
01:26:40.189So come join us.
01:26:40.765 -->
01:26:42.149Study restorative justice in schools.
01:26:42.149 -->
01:26:45.917Study that, yeah.
01:26:48.467 -->
01:26:49.570And I'll link the.
01:26:49.570 -->
01:27:02.256I'll make sure that EMU's page is, for all of those things are linked in the show notes below Thank you so much for your time, your wisdom, sharing your experiences.
01:27:02.256 -->
01:27:05.471Is there anything else that you want to leave the people with Kathy?
01:27:08.949 -->
01:27:12.509No, i'm grateful for the conversation, thank you.
01:27:12.509 -->
01:27:17.292I will say that I am questions.
01:27:17.292 -->
01:27:17.985Who am I?
01:27:17.985 -->
01:27:26.636questions Prompted a whole lot of conversation in my home, and I'm grateful for them.
01:27:26.636 -->
01:27:40.256They pushed me to reflect on some things And so, even though they were wildly awkward and uncomfortable, i think we should do more reflecting as people on who we are and naming those things.
01:27:40.256 -->
01:27:41.548So thanks for that as well.
01:27:42.251 -->
01:27:43.765Absolutely Well.
01:27:43.765 -->
01:27:54.125Again, thank you so much for your time here this morning afternoon, you know, on our respective coasts, to everyone else who's listening, thank you for being here.
01:27:54.125 -->
01:27:56.009We'll be back with another conversation next week.
01:27:56.009 -->
01:27:56.970Take care Till then.
01:27:56.970 -->
01:27:59.176Thanks, david Like, would you hurt?
01:27:59.176 -->
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01:28:20.791 -->
01:28:21.994Thanks so much for listening.
01:28:21.994 -->
01:28:22.929Talk to you next week.
