Relationship Tech

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Speaker 1: Thank you for listening to this podcast one production available on Apple Podcasts and podcast one. Hi, everybody, you have to check out this amazing new true crime podcast. It's called twenty two Hours An American Nightmare. It's about a murder that took place in Washington, d C. A family and their housekeeper were held hostage for nineteen hours before being killed when the murderers set their mansion on fire. You will be shocked by what they went through during those nineteen hours, and you won't believe how they found the guy. I'm not going to ruin the ending, but all I will say is pizza crust. I'm telling you it's awesome. Podcast one teamed up with award winning journalists from news giant w t OP to put this story together and the podcast is absolutely excellent. Download twenty two Hours An American Nightmare now on Apple Podcasts and podcast one. New episodes come out every Monday. Check it out. Hi. There, It's Laura Wasser And if anyone knows how much divorce sucks, it's me. I've been accessing family law for over twenty years and I've worked on thousands of divorces. Creating peace and families is how I lost my voice from the top of the food chain all the way down to my very first case, which was my own divorce when I was five. I wrote the book on divorce, or I wrote a book on divorce. It's called it Doesn't Have to Be That Way. How to Divorce Without destroying your family or bankrupting yourself. That book became a best seller because it presented another option for ending a marriage, one that doesn't necessarily include lawyers, and one that leaves more money in both parties bank accounts and less animosity in their hearts. We created It's Over Easy, the one stop break up divorce resource online with the same principles in mind. So welcome to the Divorce Sucks podcast. Or we talk about breaking up, getting divorced, and moving on. Are you tech savvy or tech challenge, Well, there's an app for that. No matter which way you swing. The omnipresent truth of our modern existence is that we can hardly live without technology. And why would you want to instagram my bluetooth earbuds, the app that lets me track my kids, etcetera. These twenty one century tools empower us with the ability to navigate our days and nights and customize our relationships in ways that suit us better than ever before. People meet online, plan weddings online, cheat online, find couples, therapists online. They mediate, they meditate, and we created It's over easy, so couples can get divorced online. From parenting control apps to social media and dating apps, technology shows every sign of gaining more influence in our relationships by continuing to innovate how we communicate today and how we'll socialize tomorrow. To help us see into the future of tech and relationships, I've invited three of the brightest and most innovative minds in the field to join our conversation today. Allow me to introduce you first to a serial entrepreneur and app creator. She's the co founder and co creator of Zoom Interiors and the co founder of the Hut app. Her newest app launches this fall in the relationship space and endeavors to solve the headache behind finding the right engagement ring. Welcome to Divorce Sex, Madeline Fraser. Hello, I'm so happy to be here. We're happy to have you. I mean, I always particularly women, and I know, well will we have a man coming an interloper later? But I do love speaking with women in the tech world, because I have found that they're not very many, and I understand why being a woman in the tech world. The tech is the thing that I just can't quite get. So when I meet other women who are able to, who have mastered it, and who are able to be innovative in it, I'm totally psyched. Tell us a little bit first about Zoom, because I think this is kind of a cool story that our listeners will love. Okay, cool, Yeah, you know, I kind of landed in the tech world. It wasn't what I studied in college. It wasn't actually what I ever thought I would end up doing. But I am so lucky to be able to be in this world. We started Zoom Interiors kind of by accident. In college, I went to g W and d C and I was a sophomore. I was a fine Art and Architecture major, so I was kind of like that token design kid. And I had my two best friends and we were the design girls. And lo and behold, a lot of kids were moving into their first apartments, you know, after the dorms, and they were kind of calling us saying, hey, I need help, like furnishing my space. Yeah. They were like, please help me, I don't want to only do Ikea basically is what we were finding. And and we you know, had five clients and six and ten, then twenty, and we were like, maybe we should get paid for this. So we thought, okay, well, let's like hack together a website and let people pay a flat fee so they can work with us more efficiently. And so we had like a friend of ours from you know, an engineer we met who sort of like whipped up a website for us, and lo and behold, we had essentially created the very first online design platform. And this was in two Yes, this is amazing. Okay, So then what happened? So I'm discovering So okay, so we're I'm sitting on my couch one night and I'm watching Shark Tank and I just had this idea pop into my head that I should get on the show. It just came to me. I was like, well, these people are on it, you know, well let's see if we can get on it. Why not? And my business partners were like, you're crazy, that's impossible. I said, I don't know, I think we can do it. So I started. I made us take headshots you know, because we didn't have anything. We're like, you know, this is still out of DC DC. We're in college, we're doing classes and running this company on the side, and I said, let's do it. So I kind of found some casting people, called them, email them, sent photos. I mean I probably stocked them for us all three weeks. Persistence is everything, guys. And essentially they called me back and guess what they were interviewing the first hundred companies before the hundreds of thousands came in the door. It was like fate was perfect. I couldn't believe it. Okay, So then what happened? So now you're on Shark Tank. You guys do great Shark Tank. Yeah, we we made a deal on the show. Like it was such a fun, amazing experience. We were so, you know, such an amazing learning experience in Barbara like hugged us. You couldn't believe it. And so we made a deal on the show. You know, as as Shark Tank sort of works, it's a handshake deal and then you sort of negotiate later. So you know, you say yes and then you you talk afterward. Got it, and so we decided not to go through with the deal. You know in real life, however, totally parted ways amicably and it was like, honestly the best gift ever to go on chart tank. That's amazing. So I'm reading a quote from her Instagram bio. I'm on a mission to motivate women in business to dive in head first. Okay, so tell us I know that we have some stats here from crunch base. I mean, have you you guys, you have to see her. So she's like, what what are you? Five eleven six one and she's blonde, and she's gorgeous, and she you know, she enters the room and she's wearing all red today and she's just amazing. So tell us a little bit about coming at this in the tech world as as a startup as well as a woman. Listen, It's not easy, and I hate that, and that makes me really mad. What I will say is when I did start this, it was very different. I am seeing a lot of really positive change. I'm seeing a hell of a lot more women diving in head first. I'm also seeing a lot more women in the venture world, um women as vcs. I'm seeing a lot more funds with women on as a partner, right, and and that's actually what I target now going into my third business. I'm not taking money from anybody. I want men, I want women, and I want to have a divided cap table. I think that's really important to have that balance. And when I started, I think one of the stats that I remember is only two point seven percent of all VC funded startups were run by women, female CEOs, and that was in around that stat was alive. And you know these stats that we're looking at right now that you're going to read, I mean, it's better. Yeah, there's positivity here. Two thousand eighteen said an all time for investment dollars into female founded startups. Of the almost forty billion raised by women in two thousand eighteen, fifty known rounds were above the hundred million dollar mark, making up for sixty or twenty six point two billion of the dollar amounts raised by companies with at least one female founder. And in contrast, male only founded companies raised three hundred and thirty eight rounds above a hundred million at a cost of one hundred and three billion, which is fifty dollars raised by male only teams. So I mean, it definitely is changing. It's changed since two thousand of thirteen, there's been a huge, huge outgrowth of women and female founded companies and vcs, and I think that's great. Yeah, you're seeing change from both sides, which is vital. Yes. Now, tell us how has technology infiltrated the world of human relationships that we talked about here on divorce Sucks. Yeah, of course, I mean it's everything. I think that no matter what nowadays you kind of touch, the first touch normally is with social media or something like that, and I think that it's sort of defining how relationships are starting. But it's also really giving us access to people that we may maybe never would have met before, right, and an ability to continue communicating with those people if you're moving all around. Yes, as in your situation, right exactly. So I'll also say the way that tech is infiltrated human relationships as far as I'm concerned, as I said in our in our opening, I can keep in touch with my kids. My thirteen yar old at school today. He texted me when I was in a meeting this morning. He wasn't feeling well. So then I texted our nanny. She was able to go get him at school. I just got a paying saying that he got home from one of the one of the parenting apps that I have, and when I was driving here to the studio, I was on the phone with one of my clients from my law firm, organizing with him for a hearing that I have on Friday. As I was meeting you to do this podcast, I could not do any of those things that I have, whether it's home or my two jobs, without all of the tech that we have today. Tell us how it's how it's Have you've seen it in your world? Yeah? I mean well, I think, first of all, I think it's really interesting as it relates to dating, because they think you can get access to a ton more people and you can make relationships last longer kind of. So I have an interesting story because I've been with my partner for ten years. We just actually got married this year, and we, you know, are pretty solid. But guess what, we were long distance for the first six years of our relationship. We were long distance through l A, through India, through London, through d C, through Philadelphia. I mean we I was the one moving around. He was all in Los Angeles, and I had no idea when I was going to be back in l A and that sort of happened once we launched Touch Thank goodness, right, and so now we're back together. But we had to get creative, and I think like the main things we used were Skype, FaceTime, WhatsApp, right, I mean, Viber, all these things sex apply to or they need to make that app put that in an idea column, please alive and sex up. Did you hear that? Okay? Vibras rate it's for international calls. Okay, so it's does that, doesn't it? Also, I don't think it was as integrated when I was utilizing it, you know, a couple of years ago. So we did we we did Viber and What's Up, and then we did Skype too, So we had like all these things. We would even watch movies at night and we would do Skype and then we would each play the movie. Right, that's what my kids and I do and plains so exactly. So that kept us going. I mean, it's without that. I don't really know if maybe letters like for the Elizabethan era come on, so tell us about the ring. Okay. So when I got engaged, which was a little over a year ago, I was really stumped at how hard it was to customize a piece of jewelry, specifically my engagement ring. And I was definitely on the on the side of saying, hey, this is going on my finger, so yeah, I'm going to have a say in it. And Clinton asked me, he was like, what do we do about this? I want you to be in charge of this, so we speak. So we actually did the designing together. We went through the whole process together, and then we finally we did retail that didn't work out. I tried these online platforms that didn't work out. I couldn't find what I wanted. Um. I found a lot of mystery behind the whole thing, like markups and where the diamonds really fought from and all this type of stuff. Um, and I really wanted something unique to me. I did not want something that anybody else had, because I'm like myself and I have a very distinct style and this is something I'm gonna put on my finger for a long time, hopefully right. Um So, anyway, we ended up settling on a jeweler, which was a little bit of a strange experience because you have to go downtown and sit in this little office and you're sort of giving this leap of faith, huge part just to like a random man that I just met. So the whole thing was very basically it was not It was not exactly what I had dreamt of. And and you know, I I basically told him what I wanted and I said, okay, I'll make it for you. And then and then Clinton basically said, all right, Madaline, you know you have to go wait in the corner and I'll propose when I'm good and ready. I was like, you mean, I'm not going to see this ring, like before you put it on my finger. What are you talking about? So our proposal was a hilarious, not romantic joke. I mean it was funny because he like, does the whole thing? Will you marry me? I'm like, yeah, dude, I'll marry you. Let me see that ring, give it to me. You know, I was like, what is this thing going to look like? I mean, of course we laughed about it afterward, but it gave me this beautiful idea for a business. So my whole world is direct a consumer and changing a process. That's my bread and butter. That's what I like do every single day. And so I thought, okay, well we have a viable product that is a beautiful ring that can be customed this ring that I have, which looks super expensive, What don't you say it's a honker. I mean, when you're six one, you need a big ring. Okay, guys, this is great. So this is a gemstone. It only costs three grand. In the world of rings, that's not no sane, right, And I was really shocked by that after going through the process and going to retail and going online. Um, and then the guy made it in three weeks. It was like the super fast turnaround. It's this huge gemstone. Okay. And it's gorgeous. Is that like an oval? It's an table, it's a halo. It's yellow gold, yes, which I love. I've got four bands with it. Really a lot of blame going on, guys, there's a lot of blame. It's gorgeous, you wear it in good health. Well, I love it because I get to say I designed it. It's all you and so and so. I know it's not out yet, but it's you can get it at the app store now and it's called Yeah. So we're in beta, so bear with us, come be a first user. We would love to have you, but understand that this is our testing phase. It's called the rain Co. Essentially, you can come on the app, you can completely customize the ring of your dreams, anything that you want, and then you can try them on at home before you buy them. So we've created these identical rings that we call the stand in. They look identical to the real deal. They're just made of sterling silver, gold plated and they have you know, cubic zirconia and other types of stones. So you can feel this ring, you can wear it to lunch, you can show your friends, you can and send it to them while you can. That's like your that's like your loaner ring, O god. And then you can then decide, like really confidently, okay, this is the ring that I'm actually going to purchase. And then you can keep your stand in ring for travel, the beach and working out and things like that. And for guys, you know, for a lot of couples who don't want to talk about the proposal ahead of time, guys can buy a mock ring for under a hundred dollars and propose with that while I was just thinking that, and then if she doesn't say yes, you're not actually out all that dough. That's true. Plus a lot of women don't like their rings, guys. It's twenty of women are unhappy with the ring they're proposed to when they're not involved in the design process. So what happens if you get the mock ring you propose? She says, I will marry you, but I hate this ring. Now what happened? And guess what? She is empowered to go through the design process together as a couple. You're you're on your way? Why not start it the right note? Now? What what are the price points for this service? They're super affordable. I'm really excited about that. We also offer a ton of gemstone options, which isn't really available right now. So all of the standing rings are under a hundred and fifty dollars and all of our rings essentially start at a thousand dollars. Enough, it's really you can get Essentially, you can get a beautiful, you know, gemstone ring with the halo two carrot for two grand. That's amazing, crazy And if you guys go to add it's over easy on Instagram, you we will have a picture of Madaline's gorgeous ring. This is fantastic. Joining us next is the co founder and CEO of Dig the Dog Person's Dating App, which she created with her sister. She's also the adjunct professor at the Two Lane School of Professional Advancement, where she teaches media Terrorism and Disasters to graduate students in the Homeland Security Studies program. Welcome to Divorce Sex, Lee Isaacson. Thank you very much. So where did you just fly in? From New Orleans? From New Orleans, from Nola? And so this is this Dig the Dog Person's Dating app was a total side hustle. Yes, no, no, okay, because because more of a full hustle, it doesn't exactly meld with media terrorism and disasters. It does, Okay, tell us there are dog people everywhere. So my background is actually in TV news reporting, Okay. I had my masters in Homeland Security and Emergency Response Management. So for a while I was teaching this class I created at two Lane Media Terrorism and Disasters and my students. This is not how the app started or anything. We're just giving you an idea of my background. My students are FBI agents, retired military police officers, and one of my favorite quotes from them when we were talking about what I actually do for a living was God, I wish I could just date someone with a dog because I travel so much, especially our military guys um and so that's just it's just so eye opening when you think about so many people in their connections to their dogs when they're single, especially and how important that relationship is when you're looking for someone else. Yes, totally true. I mean I used to have a pillow that's i'd love me, love my dog because I had this little Staffordshire bull Terrier who I got in three and literally he did not pass away. He was sixteen and a half. I don't think he died until must have been two thousand seven or eight. Loved him. But during that time period I dated a lot of people and if Raoul that was his name because he was from Spain, didn't like the guys like they were out There was just no way. I mean there was one guy that I went out with and poor this poor guy, Like there's a commercial running right now on television where this dog he like, gets the guy's clothes, he flushes him down the toilet, his rolex, his phone, all that, and he's like, finally the guy goes, you want to the dog. That's what this dog used to do to my boyfriend Mike. He Mike would bring over roses, the dog would like completely kill the like just bite them into a million pieces. But his shoes, but his pants hid things of his hated. Did they ever get alonger? Was that like a red flag for you? It wasn't a red flag. They eventually got along. Mike was my first boyfriend after I had broken up with the guy that I got the dog with, so the dog was definitely just piste off about there being a new male. But yeah, they eventually did get along. But there was also a penis biting that that occurred during that time period that was not not pretty and he as he was a pitfall. Jeff, I've been saving that for you. Gosh, I've heard a lot of like bad dogs with dating stories, but I have not heard of penis. It was it was more of a scrape, but it was from teeth, like he didn't clench in but it was a cana and Jeff's going crazy right there. Yeah, it was, it was. It wasn't good. I should mention on the on the app, we have vets and trainers that will help you introduce your dog to their dog and to the other people. We also really encourage you to get out and meet in like neutral territory places like dog parts, two dogs, things like that. So we definitely helped non peanuts scrape state happened. So okay, tell us about so you must you have a dog to be on the app No, okay, because we want some people maybe that don't have dogs with that want to hook up. Was somebody that has a dog so they can be the person taking care of the dog when the other person goes away the top of it. So also it's also know about the compatibility for the dogs, right, so not all dogs get along. Maybe you want to find someone who will just love your dog as much as you do. You want to find someone who loves dogs but doesn't have one. Okay, and this is a divorce podcast. My parents got divorce got ten years ago. My mom has two Bavarian Bloodhounds that don't get along with other dogs. So she needs to find someone that loves dogs and slobber and running in the snow in Boston and hair everywhere and can't have one. And so it's got to be her first conversation up front, or there's just no chance it's gonna work. It's kind of I mean it is similar in the dating world to the kid thing, like you might want to put that out there, so so tell us a little bit, but what your standard page on the app looks like in terms of the questions. Because we've seen and talked about other dating apps, how is dig different. You first log in and you say if you're looking for someone with a dog, without a dog or both, you know, get that out right away up front. M When you're filling out your profile, you've got a section for you and section for your dog or dogs plural, because we thought, why not as many more dog photos to a dating app, that's I'm gonna make it worse in anyway for dog. Wait, there's a stat here regular dating apps. How many include a picture of their dog? A lot? Okay, I know, I I it's a majority if you're a dog owner, without a doubt, and that comes back to of single adults in the US are pet owners, but dogs leading the way, and so when you're thinking about the relationship in your house, you're definitely featuring that on your profile. Okay, So it was it was seventy seven percent of single dog owners on dating apps mentioned their dogs and their profile fifty one feature at least one image of their dog, and seventy think their dates reaction to their pet is important. That's actually a low number, I would think, stated, yeah, no, no, but it's true when you think about how important that relationship is to you, you want to put that up front. Now, do you have the follow ups? Do you you have the people that have gotten married and their dogs walked the ring down the aisle and all that. I mean, we have no marriages yet. We just launched last year. It was a little fast for some people maybe, but I'm really hoping we're hearing some of those stories soon. I'm just saying, you know, some people you never know. I see people laughing around thing with that dog years. I love that. But we do have a few people who we've been following up with who are going on phenomenal dates and have been who met each other right when we launched last year, so about a year so far, um, and we love seeing the different dates you can go on that our dog Friendly You suggest some of them on the app, the dates, So when you match with someone on dig this section in the conversation area opens up where you can suggest a dog friendly date near you. So we we show you the closest dog parks to you, we show you the closest dog friendly restaurants, maybe other things, like especially in California have got awesome trails and amazing things out here that other places don't have. It's really fun to we're launching the app city by city across the country, and it's so fun to see how dog friendliness changes with each city. Tell me some of the things that you've noticed. So, for example, in Boston, they are not dog friendly, but there's tons of dog owners. That's where your mom. Okay, I'm originally from the Boston area. But what we find is we've got a lot more people without dogs there because they may be in their late twenties. In housing that's not dog friendly, You've got big problems with that in places like Boston. Compared to somewhere like Orlando, where you walk into an apartment complex and they immediately have like little bubblers for the dogs and treats everywhere you go and like um poop bags you can grab from the wall and things like that. It's just a totally different culture. So dog friendliness in Boston it's much harder to find somewhere that's dog friendly to go on a date. The brewery scene has made that actually much more helpful across the country. Um. One of the reasons you can't bring dogs in places is because of the Food and Health administration and rules. So breweries with their like food trucks outside means you can usually bring dogs inside. So that's been really fun. See how those kind of correlate. So I have a question for you, and I don't know if you know the answer. I don't mean to put you on the spot, but the service dogs, the dogs that you get a thing so that you can take them places, you can go on planes with them, is there a separate I mean, what do you have to do to qualify that for that? If you know, is it is it statewide or is it national? And then what is what is the differentiation on the site about that? Like this I need this dog? This is a service dog? Oh totally. Well, on the site you can absolutely write anything you want about each dog. So people certainly write, you know, as much as they feel comfortable sharing, because you're immediately saying I have something you need to know about me, not just this is my pets, saying some sort of um, you know, blind or I'm nervous or I but I can certainly see the rise in people who are just going online and getting the easy emotional support dog. You know, certifications and things like that. Is that easy and it can be very easy. It's turned into like a big, big business, and so it's a little controversial because you've got you know, the people who absolutely a percent need it for a whole sort of different reasons, and people who are just trying to use their dog to get on the plane. Now, our point of view is the dog should be allowed on the plane anyway, and people are going to take these routes to bring their dogs places they want to go. That's why you're seeing these industries change to accommodate dogs right now. With the rise and pet ownership, you're seeing the travel industry is taking a little longer. But like hotels um touting that their dog friendly, and you know Subaru and they're amazing dog friendly cars, and we've got Tito's the dog Person's vodka, right like, the entire industries want to be involved in this emotional and deep connection that people have with their dogs. Tell us a little bit about your demographic and dig are you finding people that are younger that are, you know, kind of pre first marriage or older or does it I'm sure you're available to everybody, but who is mostly using it? And then how can we talk about what our theme is on the show, which is how technology is kind of changing the way we enter into and conduct ourselves in relationships. Sure, first, for the people on the app, we definitely are seeing a little bit older than your average dating app, which is low twenties, So we are about thirty to thirty five is our key demographic, um Dog owners. We got about women on the app, which is wild and wonderful. And when I got into the dating app business, people are like, you know, you definitely want to make sure the women are there because the men will follow, and like, it's not a problem. Well, it kind of is a problem if you don't like even it out. So like, guys, if you're listening, there are tons of wonderful women waiting for you on this app. But what's really surprised me is we didn't think we would be anyone's first dating app, right, because the world of dating apps is changing where you now have three or four apps at a time. You're using dating apps nine to ten hours a week, on average. That's amazing. That's a part time job, right, So you we thought we would be your like third or fourth. You have the big, large ones that you could swipe forever and just kind of blindly go through them, and then your niche dating app that cuts to the chase and gives you maybe fewer people to start because we're smaller and just to start up, but people who are immediately in line with what you want. But we found that a little bit older than our average demographic, so even fifty plus are people are using our ups because they're bringing in that trustworthiness. Like, oh, I've always heard of dating apps, but this is the first one where I'm like, Okay, I'm ready to bring my wingman with may or fewing woman with me, even if it's online, right, Like you can picture it out and how it would help you on a physical date. But even having that comfort with you in your pictures, it seems to be helpful. It's amazing. Have you heard that in California we've now passed laws that treat animals pets like more like kids as we've never done before, And so I think they're the world is changing. I think to accommodate people in their pets. Now the question is what the pet, because clearly dogs and cats are, but there's a lizard. Can you argue over a pair of kid? I don't know. So we get the when are you doing the cat app? Question? Constantly? But next wire the cats actually date? Sorry okay, But the next question I get is horse horse. Yes, we'll think about it. Horse people definitely need their own they've got their own world. Yes, go on, right and so sure maybe right now we're totally focused on totally focused on dogs. Okay. And by the way, I want to make clear you guys do same sex dating on the app? Yes, absolutely, you can log into day and you can search for someone um a man, woman or non binary non binary community on there. When we originally started building out our staff, we wanted to make sure we had brand ambassadors covering every aspect of relationships, and we immediately started working with this wonderful person who identifies as non binary and m I T student who helps us out in Boston and since then have just like, if you have the diverse you know group in your staff, you're reaching the diet group of people who are out there. Dog people arrange every everywhere, and so we we want to be everywhere and we are absolutely you know, l g B, t Q, non binary, all of the things. And if I'm not saying it right, I hope people tell me because I always want to make sure we're on top of that. Have you noticed any kind of um trend or preference in terms of the gender of the dogs? Like, and again I'm not being funny, I know that I would rather date a guy that had a guy dog. I don't want some bit literally like in my way, I want to I've had those issues before. Have you heard that? Is that something that you see? We see that it's definitely a preference, not necessarily one gender over another. But I have a girl dog. I want to date someone with a boy dog. Maybe you've you know, female dogs can get in fights more often depending on their background and their brain and all sorts of things. But we see much more education around you know what type of dogs people are looking for, and that comes up very quickly on conversations. I love it. I have to say I was a little skeptical. Oh and Johnny brought this idea to me. By the way, I didn't understand either. I thought it was a dating app for the for the actual dogs. We did get that. This is fair doc lovers, not for the dogs were not like a breeding app. We've gotten that a question before. To now go somewhere else for people who love dogs. I absolutely love it. Okay, Alexa isn't the only one with breaking news. Make sure to hang around at the end of this podcast for the latest breaking headlines on the AP News Minute. It was a crime no one expected and one many can't forget. One in two hours. An American Nightmare, a new podcast from tumbleing u t op News and Podcast one, details the heinous murders of a d C power couple, their ten year olds up and housekeeper inside their own home. The chilling messages from the victim's being held hostage, the complicated trail of evidence, and shocking moments from the trial. He she knows how Darren went got inside the house. His defense team drops a bombshell. Will this investigation lead to the release of confidential audio recordings from the case? So it's under General Compson review, committing to making a transparent court twenty two hours An American Nightmare Subscribe on Apple podcast Today. Next up, joining our conversation about the tech takeover of Our Relationships is the founder and CEO of the co Parenter app. Co Parenter is the first app designed to help separating, divorced and never married parents communicate, manage, and organize everyday co parenting responsibilities, helping them save money, stay out of court, and make better decisions for their kids. Welcome to divorce sucks, my friend, Jonathan Burke, thank you so much. So with a background and entertainment and your love of philanthropy and charity, what led you to create co Parenter. That's a great question because it certainly wasn't a direct path. Lawyer, and Uh, I don't think I'll ever be one h As you said, I spent twenty two years in the advertising and entertainment media business, spent a couple of years at Shizam as executive vice president over there um. But about six years ago I started going through what ended up being a pretty brutal litigated divorce here in Los Angeles. Uh, and I got a front row seat to see just how horrible the system can be for people going through it. And as bad as it was for us, it was devastating for our kids, who you know, for four years watch their parents go through this system, only to be chewed up and spit out the other side, the other side much worse off than they were. And when we went in and you know, as we sat in the gallery there where you know, everybody sits and listens to everybody else's dirty laundry, UM, it became really clear that we weren't alone. We were arguing and fighting and ultimately litigating about everyday co parenting issues that had no foundation in the law. It wasn't legal decisions we were making art. We were having arguments about things that are co parenting. They're ultimately parenting decisions, but there wasn't a venue to make those decisions and to work out the kinks of disagreement. So UM I connected with my dear friend and neighbor, Eric Weiss, who's a technologist and you know, has a deep understanding and knowledge of the tech space, especially with very uh complex, you know, privacy security type products, and we connected with Judge Cheryl Ellsworth, who's the former California Presiding Judge in Riverside County, and we set out to create a platform that would help parents make co parenting decisions and resolve disputes that help them save money, safe time, and ultimately stay out of court, which is amazing. And as we've discussed before, Jonathan, and as we've discussed on the show, I mean a lot of this is so frustrating for judges that are sitting on the bench. It's very frustrating for attorneys, at least those of us. And and I would like to say most of us, most of my colleagues are problem solvers and so to be charging in an ordered amount of money to decide who gets to pick up and who gets to drop off, or what whether it's better to have Wednesdays or Thursdays. And I mean some decisions, some of the big decisions legal custody is comprised of, you know, health, welfare, education, those are the kind of things, yes, but when you're talking about extracurricular activities, if we're talking about a specific schedule, if you're talking about well, I just want to be really clear that he is never allowed to take her around that bimbo that he cheated. No, that's not okay. His time is his. And so what I like about co parent or is it really forces the parties to be able to communicate and then resolve their issues on their own. Also tell our listeners how it kind of keeps track of things if you can't, which I find interesting because it also gives some people feel like they really need to go to court because if they don't address this, then it's never going to get addressed, and they may not believe that they're able to resolve it because their co parent is an asshole. So now tell us how it can help people even if they're if they've not completely drank the wade yet, it can still help well. First of all, the app was built by you know, certainly technologists, but also brain science, psychologists, lawyers, family law judges, um, so that we address the fundamental issues from the from the get go and provide our users sort of the most um uh gentle way to get through the process. Um. You know, one of the challenges are that, you know, you have a list of things. As parents, we have a list of things that we want, uh, and we approach a negotiation from that mindset, and it's hard to shift the sort of thinking the process to be about what the what's in the best interests of the child versus what I want I want Tuesday's I want Christmas, I want him to do tennis lessons I want him to have a bar mitzuah. I want whatever I'm gonna miss her if she's not there in the morning. I want to make sure she wears this certain thing. Control issues, control issues, absolutely, and that is fundamentally why um, you know, gets in the way I think of people making their um their child centric decisions. I think what we're seeing is a move towards a more principled approach to co parenting. I think you know and and uh, you know you and your approach to lawyering I think is on the you know, the true leading edge of taking the lawyer community out of that adversarial approach and into taking the more child centric approach to problem solving. And isn't that what Canada, or at least Alberta is doing right now? Yeah, I'm Canadian, so I do have that. I do have that. I was born with that sort of d n A where we've got to take care of our we've got to take care of our people, we've got to take care of our society. And and you know that was really the approach You're right Alberta. Alberta's rolled co parenter out as part of their early Early Intervention initiative. Alberta has taken a really interesting approach to reimagining the family justice system. The family. The family law system that we have here in California, that we have, you know across the US is very adversarial. It's designed to be that way, as you know, and you're I mean, you're, you're, you're far more of an expert than I'll ever be. It's a adversarial process. It's it's a it is a wind lose model UM. In Alberta, what they've done is they've tried to reimagine the family justice system and frontload the process with tools, services, and access to different resources that help parents make decisions early in the process, help them create foundational understanding of who's supposed to be where where, you know, where the kids are supposed to be on any given day, making these decisions that eliminate they need for for conflict. And so they're using co parent er as part of that initiative, giving their their citizens access to the tool way early in the process, long before they have the conflicts that end up leading in court UM. And so it's been very successful there and they've been very successful in reimagining the process. And UH, I think other jurisdictions across Canada and really the world. I mean a lot of people are looking at Alberta as uh you know, as as a as a model and I think we're gonna start seeing a lot more of that around the world. So now talk about how that kind of approach has infiltrated into the tech that we're doing, that you're doing with co parenter. Sure, so we take it obviously a child centric approach our Our our mission as a as a company is to eliminate high conflict divorce from the list of adverse childhood experiences. And you know we can we can talk aces today or another day if you're into it. What we do is we help to eliminate the everyday conflict and give people the tools to resolve them on their own. So we've got a suite of tools that help parents manage, organize, and ultimately document their co parenting relationships. So all communication is time and date stamped. There's an uneditable record of all communication. We have a different level of sophistication of filters. So if you try to say f you will stop you from sending it and give you an alternative, give you, give you an option to hear maybe try a different term because the big, big Canadian brother is watching. But I'll tell you, as a family law practitioner, so often when we have custody disputes, I have a client coming with just a stack of emails, and as we all know, if you're going through this, you can be really piste off. So there can be a lot of f us so to speak, and you can type or write or even do a voicemail with things that you you know, five minutes later you just wouldn't have said. But you said the worst, most horrible thing, and that's the impression that a judge is going to get of you when he or she reads the paperwork. So I love the co parent or will go yo, you don't want to say that back up. And I also love that all of these communications are now kept because it may not be hey, you, but what it may be is hey, I'm going to be fifteen minutes late, and then the other person says, oh, gee again, don't tell me again, I'm having cards or whatever. But if you've got seventeen or eight Tina, though, is it starts to show a pattern of one parent really not showing up on time totally and actually just to speak to your that those exact points. Another feature that we have in the tool is called check in. So you know, one of the most common issues that people have is one parent being perpetually late for pick up and drop off, as you just mentioned, and what we've done is we've built a check in feature. What happens is, after the sixth or seventh time of bringing this non legal issue to court, stock from yourself, right, well, what I mean, I mean, how many times have you you've seen this? The judge says, Okay, now it's we're gonna take this non legal issue of one parent being disrespectful, not illegal, being late for pick up and drop off, and we're gonna make it into a legal issue. We're gonna I'm gonna order you to drop the kids off at Starbucks, and every time you go to Starbucks, you're gonna you're gonna buy a coffee, and you're gonna keep that receipt and the time and date stamp. The next time that you come back to court to argue about being perpetually late, you're gonna show me that receipt. So it forces the parents to go and buy eight bucks worth of coffee every time that they want to pick some of the thinking that they should they should start much should make a tremendous donation to the judicial system, I think. So okay, but co parent or how to check in donated by the copy. You don't need to buy a coffee, So you go, you check in when you drop off the kids. They registers a time and date stamp, pin draw and your co parent gets notification lets them know that you've arrived when they arrived. They get to um check in as well, and those two things resolved. That's the other thing. She can't cut and say that you're consistently late because you've got your thing. Okay, we have judges who will who do look at that. You know, they won't let the parents, I mean especially if they're people who have been back and forth so many times. They won't let them leave until they see the co parent are installed on their phone. But one of the things that we've done, actually just we just released is a thing called solo mode. And so what solo mode does is allows a person to and this is unique to any other tool out there. It lets people use the app whether they're co parent wants to or not. So if you have a difficult situation where your co parent refuses to use the app, and about fifty percent of the time that's the case on all on all co parenting apps, but fifty of time one parent or the other either one refuses to invite or the other refuses to accept um with co parent, or we have solo mode, so you can use it whether your co parent wants to or not. We convert everything into text format and it's received as a text by your co parent, and when they respond, it's converted back into a co parenter language and time and date stamped, and so there's an accurate record and you have all your communication in one place, you know, and your co parent doesn't. That's amazing. What is different about communicating with someone on an app versus talking to them in person? How does that work better? I know the answer to this question from you. It's really interesting. You know, we entered this space with the intention of changing the dynamics of what mediation means, what the process looks like. Our platform is entirely text based, and we had we didn't start off with that. We we had intended on starting with text and then layering in voice and uh video. But of the or so people that use co parent er. We've had exactly zero requests for videoing, voice, emojis, tons O, a lot, I like the egg plant, like you done that? Not a lot of egg plants on this one. Not a lot of eggplants, not a lot of okays and thumbs up, okays and pointer. But there's been no requests for video or voice. I think, I think you don't want to see your co parent You don't want to get triggered, exactly the feedback from our users. You know, it's funny because you know the mediators often especially the people who have been doing this for a very very long words, the the people who've been doing it for a long time, who you know, who are used to mediating in a traditional environment where you're sitting around a round table. The three of you, I kind of can't see. This is how people communicate today. This is the way that they do it. They do it a synchronously. They want to have the flexibility to be able to, you know, get on with their lives and make this and integrate this process into it, not block it out as something that they have to take time off of work, They have to drive, they have to pay for parking, probably pay for lunch, get the only to sit in a room with somebody they can't bloody stand and run the risk of being triggered by their sound, their smell. There there, they're the site. It's it's uh, it's stressful, absolutely, So okay, how far out are you? So? Yeah, we launched four now we're in V two. Um. Yeah, you can download the app from the App Store or Google Play. I have it, by the way, I love it. It's dynamite. Thank you so much. We're thrilled that you use it. Yeah, I know, it's it's it's available and um, you know, we have a really robust site with lots of you know, great information and great content. You know, we're trying to help people stay out of court. We're trying to help them make more child centric decisions, help them put their kids first, because you know, really we all do better when parents get along. I'm Laura Wasser, and this is divorce Sucks. My approach to family law is that you're dealing with a family. And when you're dealing with a family, whether it's a famous family or not famous family, you have to deal with the same fears and sadnesses, anxieties, and anger. So what we try to do with the tech we've created and It's over Easy, is to help get you and your soon to be I from a place where you're not happy being together in a relationship to a place where you're in a different kind of a relationship, still a family, just not married romantic relationship anymore. If it's over Easy, you can play even a small role in helping you come out of this with a little less stress and anxiety. Our site is working, so many of us are going through this. Why shouldn't it be at least a little bit easier, or at least in the legal sense. And today's show is all about making things easier with tech. We're speaking with three innovators in relationship tech. Madeline Fraser, the entrepreneur and app creator behind Hutch and ring dot com, Lee Isaac's and the CEO and co founder of dig, the dog person's dating app, which she founded with her sister Casey Hi Casey. And Jonathan Verke, the creator and CEO of the co parent Or app, which enables separating, divorced and never married parents to communicate about everyday co parenting responsibilities. And now that we're all together, let's talk about the future. So this is to all of you, starting with you, Madeline, tell me your predictions about the future of what we'll call on the show relationship technology. Okay, I wanted to bring up virtual reality. It's something that I think is really fascinating. I'm very interested in it. I'm also super terrified about it because I don't really understand exactly the effect it could have if it really does take hold like people are saying it could. UM, I'm worried that we're gonna lose human connection. That you can have a virtual, completely virtual relationship with someone without ever having to actually physically touch that, and that freaks me out. I would just like to post viber. Yeah, new company idea. Should we all co found it together? Okay, we're on it. We're all No. It is scary, but if I definitely think that it's the way Jonathan thinking, God, I could just have a virtual co parent. I don't have to deal with that at all. Again, I would comparing you with a robot. Yeah, basically yea, and what goes wrong? Really, what about you? I kind of take the opposite approach, you know, we um are. It's obviously something to be concerned about, UM, But There are so many ways you can use technology to facilitate your relationship. Obviously, dating apps is my focus, but even moving beyond in the next step of your relationship, there's really cool new products out there to help you work through maybe a couples therapy online together where you can text in you know, even your own therapist or other therapy. There's a really cool company that we work with called love Intently out of Austin that's really helping you text and come up with uh first date ideas, second date ideas. You know, people you can connect with to make that relationship even better. In the dog world, you know, people keep coming to us saying I'm already married and I have dogs, but we want to meet other married people with dogs too. People are looking for well, okay, whatever the reason is that they're trying to meet. I always to a sex, don't you know, Well, you can use the app however you'd like to use the app. But what's fascinating to me is that you know, once you use it to create one connection, you look for other technology products to create those next connections. So maybe you find your person on dig, but you want to find other types of people swingers or not maybe like friends or like families with kids that are you know, places that are dog friendly that you can bring your kids things like that. So I think it's really fascinating to see what other products are out there to continue building additional relationships. I like that, And Jonathan, yeah, I think that. Um. I think that those technologies are definitely going to have a place. You know, our our world is helping people get through the process of separation, divorce, and co parenting, and I think that artificial intelligence machine learning is going to impact a lot of that. I think that there's going to be a lot of questions about what role artificial intelligence is going to play in the various aspects of this process. You know, there's a lot of indicators that it's a very good concept that this this whole idea of machine learning and being able to search through and analyze zillions of data points so that we can make better decisions. And I also think that there's gonna be a lot of challenges as we work through how do we program bias out of artificial intelligence that we don't carry on the same biases that we that that we you know, grew up with. But I think that AI and machine learning is going to have a tremendous impact on technology that's helping people get through separation, divorce, and co parenting. Totally agree, and as as you can hear listeners, all three of our guests today are in the world of relationships. I don't believe that in any of these scenarios we've we've lost the human touch. I don't think so at all, actually, And so whether you are designing a new place or designing your perfect engagement ring, whether you're meeting somebody that you're interested in having a relationship with and you've already have that component of your your best friend as part of that dating relationship, or you're actually extricating yourself from a married relationship or coupled relationship but remaining a family member. And and certainly for It's over Easy as well. With the legal process is just one of my most frustrating things, because again, none of your apps really touched on the legal process except Jonathan's a little Ours is trying to It's over easy, is trying to figure out a way to get through all of the forms and the state mandated um requirements and making it easy for people as they're doing that. I think we do have human touches in all of these I can't you. You can't get away from that in any of the relationship scenarios we're talking about. Yet at the same time, bringing it to people in a way that they can do it from wherever they are be able to really really spend the time necessary to devote to it and make it fit what they need. I think is super super important. So what's next is what we call the divorce sucks in orogatories. So speaking of law that I never want to hear. Sorry, maybe the last. If you've been divorced, you hear that word all too many times. Can we do some discovery that this is a discovery? Okay? Do you each swear to tell the truth, the whole truth and nothing but the truth? Yes? Yes, okay, and about it I already told you the questions. Okay. So we know Madeline got married last year? Yes, okay, So what is your relationship status and engage? Congratulations? When's the wedding? It is November in New Orleans? All right, we will all be there. And Jonathan, you got married last year, to get married last November. We had a New Orleans theme that Yeah, we had a six piece back line, very nice. It was November twenty for fivewhere Shoot, we're gonna have to add that out, Jeff, you got that he was so worried about saying, but you didn't know is goddamn anniversary? Okay, November. Okay, that you're finally answer that is in six parts horns. We're doing nice nice love them. Did you have dogs at your wedding? We did? I did my first one I did. My first was death. He's got the flower dogs. Then we've already met with the florist. Alright, Lee, what is your favorite breakup song? Torn the lying Naked on the Floor song. I don't know him anymore. It's nothing station. That's what's going. Yes, yes, let's call it lying Naked on the Floor song. We're gonna be able to find that first on Spotify, Jeff, Okay, I think that first before the name. But I absolutely love that song. That or the entire rent album. The entire rent You have to like sit in my car and listen to the whole Rents album for five hours? Okay? What is it? Um? Five six hundred minutes? Thank you? I just cut it down because I have a d D in New York. Year Instead of York, Madeline, your favorite breakup song? I gotta go with the Fleetwood Mac classic Landslide, nice, grade of change, love nice wrong. Yes, this is from someone who was in college into what do you Got? Burke? I would not have been able to get through my four years of divorce without the Grateful Dead channel listening. I know it's terrible. That is a big that is a big buzz killer, and my family listed as a map puts on the Grateful Dead station. Okay, it's terrible. I'm embarrassed about it. All right. Well what I did? I always want the cultures and nothing about the truth. What would you say, Jonathan does cheer up someone going through a breakup? I would say, get on dig or get or get on Tinder and get on bumble. Hurry up. Okay, that's good. I really like you, Thank you very much. On brand, I would say take a walk. Um. You know, when I'm in a difficult situation, even in business, one of the best things I could do is get outside, take a walk, take my dog for a walk, at some exercise and some fresh air. Um. But basically just calm down and think and take a step back. How many dogs do you have? One? But she is active enough for like, for a lot of breakups. She's she's available for a loan if good. You can just that is true, Madeleine, how about you? Um? I would you know? I have a lot of friends that are single and they're in the dating world right now, and so I go through a lot of breakups with them, and I always tell them to just get back out there. I think that there's a lot of stigma around. I don't want to be on a dating app. It's scary, Like, I don't think I can do it. I'm a social person and I'm like, no, do it. I help them. I'm like their cheerleader. We make the accounts together. I push them good works. I like that. And I will say this, and we've said it before on the show You're Dating. Post breakup is a fantastic opportunity for you to represent yourself, not only to somebody else who may or may not be Mr is Right, but to yourself. You become yourself again and you get to see who you are over you know, a salmon filet or a cheeseburger and a glass of Shardonnay, and you get to really decide who it is you want to be in this next chapter, And I think that's really really important for people. Reflection part. When you're talking to someone, you can see what you're saying and see if you're being truthful to yourself in the moment, because you can read it right back to yourself. And if your dog is there next to like howling or licking something, then you know that maybe you've got to check yourself. The dog thing is huge. I think in this dating capacity, I really keep you honest. I have a question about the do do some people misstate the dog's age? Dog? Just Oh my gosh, I'm gonna have to look into that more to the person and you're like, this is not what you're doing about We definitely don't encourage you to search like be an age just in like the dog only want to date someone with a puppy, Like no, but he wants that's definitely only all right, rom coms starting with you, Lee M. I go back and forth on this, but right now it would be my big fat Greek wedding. Oh that's a good one. I haven't had that one before. Okay, how about you made? I actually just weirdly watched this. I was in New York last week, so I download movies to watch on the plane. Knocked Up. It's so good, so lastic, it makes me laugh every time. Jonathan, I'm going to go with the Big Lebowski is so happy. I just have to mention with regard to that question. In this week's New York Times magazine, No No, but there's a great article about the rom com It's called Twilight of the rom Com and it's by Well Wesley Morris, and it's all about how we may actually be have moved out of this genre and romantic comedy is the only genre committed to letting relatively ordinary people figure out how to deal meaningfully with another human being, and that people aren't making them anymore, they're not watching anymore. There's a whole thing about Katherine Heigel and here about how she made so many of them during that time that even she started getting and now well I know again or Katherine Heigel, but this has been going on for a while. It's a great article. I highly recommended, And um, I think that's it for today. So tell us, folks, how we can reach you, starting with Madeline, How can we get up with you? How can we know when you've moved from soft launch into in Verveta, into real give me my god damn ring right away for sure, so you can download the app. It's the Ring co on the App Store iOS first, and we will be launched in September, so we're in beta, so come join us, enjoy it, and you can always follow me on Instagram at mad Fraser always uh you know, message me. I'm here to help. I want other women in this world with me, and we got to support each other. We were just trying on rings. She's already ful. I love it well. I had no idea you could devote the rung on both sides. The thing you can do all right, how about you? Lee? Yes, we are at dig Dates all over the place. Um really important to us. All the dogs we use in all of our marketing on Instagram, for example, are available for adoption from Louisiana area shelters as well, so even if you're not single, you can still follow and support the pups. But the app is totally free on both the App Store and Google Play, so search for dig Dates or dig the Dog Person's dating app. We also throw events across the country. We've got events every two weeks. We've got launch events. In l A, in Atlanta, Nashville, Denver, Seattle coming up next, So definitely take a look at dig dates dot com and see where you can find us in person as well. Awesome and Jonathan. We are on Instagram at co Parenter, We're all over Facebook and um we have a very robust website at co parenter dot com. And you can download the app right now for at the Apple App Store, iTunes App Store, or Google Play and you can get thirty day free trial, which is of course way more than enough to build a parenting plan and get your get your process started and start putting gets first. With all that technology empowers us to do, it's still up to you and me to communicate clearly, whether it's in person or on an app. For more tips, including my five steps to an amicable divorce, please follow us at it over Easy on Instagram. And while you're here, in your podcast app, if you haven't already, tap subscribe and leave a review. Divorce will still suck next week and we'll be here too. Thank you for listening to the Divorce Sex Podcast. I'm Laura Wasser