BONUS: Unlocking the Neuroscience of Subluxation with Dr. Heidi Haavik

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Welcome to All Things Chiropractic.
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Welcome to another episode of All Things Chiropractic. I'm Paul Andrews.
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And I'm Dr. Mark Davini and we have a special guest today. Very special, from very far away.
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Yes. And I love our accent already. It's wonderful. I love that New Zealand
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accent. It's very charming. Doc.
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So, Dr. Heidi Havoc, we always ask, the first question is, give us your two-minute
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bio of someone who doesn't know you.
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I think there's about three, four people.
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There might be a few. Thanks, Mark and Paul, for having me. This is really exciting.
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Yeah, I have a bit of an odd accent because I'm part Norwegian,
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part Kiwi, New Zealander, and I lived in England as a little girl.
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So I've got a bit of a weird mixture. No one can really place my particular accent.
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I am a chiropractor, but I also went on and did a PhD in human neurophysiology.
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And I spent the last 25 years of my life studying why the spine is so important
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for your health and your well-being and your function.
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And it's been an incredible journey because we've discovered so much over these last 25 years.
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So we much better understand now what a subluxation is
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um what specifically happens in the brain and
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body when you adjust subluxations and and i've just enjoyed traveling the world
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and sharing this knowledge um all around the world to not just chiropractors
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but you know i'll speak with anyone i don't really care neurosurgeons doctors
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physios um the public yeah yeah
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changed the level of language somewhat, but it's exactly the same story.
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Very, very fascinating. So I'm very happy to be here. Thank you.
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Thank you for being here. I have to say, because you mentioned Norway,
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they really rocked it at the Olympics, the Winter Olympics. Top of the medal.
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They always do. I mean, we crazy Norwegians, I mean, you know,
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we just about ski before we walk and it's insane.
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I mean, as a kid, I even skied to school and I had our skates over our shoulders
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because they hosed down the soccer pitch and, you know, we skated and the brakes.
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Just mental stuff, eh? Now I look, you know, yeah. So no wonder they did.
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Yeah. You did the downhill just to go to school, right? Yeah.
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Well, that was cross-country, you know, but there's mountains everywhere.
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So just, you know, five-minute drive and we've got a downhill ski slope.
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And so to me, that was just normal. That's how you grow up.
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Oh, that's cool, though. That's crazy. You know, I'm going to start off with
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one simple question because I think what you said just a minute ago about the subluxation.
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And maybe if you could just spend a couple seconds on relieving the fear that
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some of these doctors who are graduating from wherever are having when they
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use the word subluxation.
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They'll actually have like a panic over the concept of using the word subluxation.
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Really? Why?
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Oh, because the schools, like we have schools here that teach you you're not
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allowed to even use the word.
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Oh, see, I mean.
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I grew up bilingual, right? So to me, a word's just a word. It's the concepts that matter.
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So my dad's Norwegian, my mom's a Kiwi. So I'd speak English to mom and Norwegian
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to dad, and it sort of merged into, you know, every second word,
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but depending who I was speaking to.
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So to me, the words themselves have never mattered. It's the concepts that have mattered the most to me.
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And so, again, I had no bias, even though my dad's a medical doctor.
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And supposedly, there's, you know, all of this.
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He didn't disown you when he became a chiropractor?
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You know, and bless him. Guess what he said to me when I came happily and told
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him as a 20-year-old I'm going to be a chiropractor? He goes,
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oh, honey, that's wonderful.
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They do a lot of good for a lot of people. That was his response.
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I had no idea again.
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And maybe it's because I was so naive. To me, it was no problem even studying
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it when I was doing my PhD, right?
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Because, I mean, in New Zealand, again, there's less infighting.
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So for us, it's like perfectly okay to talk about the concept of the subluxation.
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And my role has been literally uncovering the neuroscience behind it.
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And it's really fascinating.
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I mean, it's a subtle difference to what the original theories were,
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but it's remarkable how close it is, too.
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Like, that really gets me, eh? I'm sitting there going,
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Wow. Putting all those big words to the safety pin cycle, right? Yeah.
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And, like, what are the three reasons that causes subluxation, you know?
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Like, hmm, trauma toxins thought. Well, guess what we found in the research
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literature according to this model is physical injury, emotional injury,
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like going into fight and flight, or local inflammation.
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Traumas, toxins, and thoughts. I mean, it's like far out.
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So the subtle difference is that it's not when we're adjusting the subluxation,
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we're not actually relieving pressure off the nerve root.
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That's the subtle difference. What we're actually doing is we're stretching
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the paraspinal muscles, especially the deep ones that cross individual vertebra,
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and they've dysfunctioned for a while when we've been subluxated.
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That's another whole bunch of research.
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So when you stretch those little muscles that have shrunken and atrophied and
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become fatty infiltrated.
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It's like, whoa, it wakes the brain up and the brain goes, oh my goodness,
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what just happened? And it kind of resets itself.
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And then you have a more appropriate control of that segment,
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but it also changes all sorts of other things, which is exactly what chiropractors see in practice.
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People come in for their first adjustment and they're like, they're sleeping better.
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They can go off their blood pressure medication or the baby's colic has changed
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or the big toe that they never told you about or the tinnitus in their ears
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that, again, I'm like, what tinnitus? You didn't even say anything about the tinnitus.
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Well, because you can't help that.
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You know, exactly, exactly. And so I'm just so passionate about connecting the
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dots for the patients out there and the chiros for that matter,
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especially chiros that don't even dare use the term.
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Crikey, that's our legacy. This is our...
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Can I ask you, doctor? Thank you. Thank you. you do you you've been in the game
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for a long time now do you find chiropractors,
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better or not as good about explaining what chiropractic is to their patients?
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Oh, they're absolutely crap at it most of the time. Yeah.
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But only because we haven't had solid scientific facts, I feel.
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And of course, I'm entitled to that opinion, right?
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So I think they kind of skirt around it and avoid it. And I think because they
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have some fear around it, it comes across.
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Whereas that's what I'm hoping that we can change through the science,
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because the science actually, you know, joins beautifully with the old philosophies.
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There's just a couple of tweaks here and there, you know.
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And so I think that that can give us a lot more confidence and then we should
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be able to explain chiropractic care in a much better way.
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Hey, throw out a little fun fact in there too, you know.
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My great-grandfather on my mother's side was actually one of the first thousand
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chiropractors ever to graduate from Palmer College in 1924. Oh my God.
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No way. Oh, my God. Yes, way. Yes, way. That's amazing. Wow.
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Oh, yeah, so far. You missed that one.
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She just threw one right across the home plate, and you let it go.
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Listen, she's a guest. I'm not going to say anything about age.
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What are you talking about? No, I was going to.
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He always gives me a hard time about my age. I do. I would have expected him
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to say, oh, what was it like graduating then? Oh, yeah. I should have asked Mark. Did you know her?
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So, let me say this, though. You know, now that we've kind of said the whole
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subluxation thing. Well, hold on. I have to ask. I have to ask.
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Did she know Harvey Lillard? Like, how much older was that?
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Hey my great grandfather my great grandfather not you
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Your great grandfather that's what i'm asking like.
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Well i don't actually know because of course he's dead and yeah when
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Was when was harvey when was that whole story what year.
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Was that was dd yeah i guess and this was 1924 and and And that's the reason
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I was actually born in New Zealand,
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because this great-grandfather of mine and his wife and my grandfather all died in a car accident.
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And my grandmother was never meant to walk again, blah, blah, blah.
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And of course, she, you know, with chiropractic care, you know,
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was absolutely fantastic and walked her dog and drove a little red Mercedes until she was 93.
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But that's why we ended up in New Zealand.
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So that's why I'm actually born in New Zealand, even though I grew up in Norway.
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Did you know he was a chiropractor? before you decided to be a chiropractor?
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Yes, Paul, but I didn't really know what chiropractic was. So...
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I grew up in Norway in the medical model, but my mother had all of these weird
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ideas, which, of course, I just thought were normal ideas, you know,
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all about, you know, healthy eating, healthy living.
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She would make everything from scratch. We used to take supplements as a kid
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and little egg cups, you know.
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And to me, all of this was normal. But, of course, it's come through her chiropractic side.
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And we would go and visit my family in New Zealand and then we'd always get adjusted.
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But my uncles in Norway, my dad's family, you know, I had a physiotherapist.
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So I kind of thought chiropractic was this glorified physiotherapist type thing.
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And I didn't really understand until I went out to New Zealand as a 20-year-old
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and visited New Zealand, you know, just having fun and then found out about
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the New Zealand College of Chiropractic and thought, oh, this would be cool
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because I don't want to leave. I'm enjoying New Zealand.
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And I applied. And so I didn't really know the difference.
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And even then, remember, this is in New Zealand where it's not so,
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the infighting doesn't really exist. So we had an awesome physiology lecturer,
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science lecturer, and we had an awesome philosophy lecturer,
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and then we had the clinical head.
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So those three, Bernadette Murphy was a science person, Phil McMaster was our
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philosophy guy, and then Jim Stenier was our technique.
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And they had such integrity and they were such amazing people.
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It all blended so nicely together and we had no arguments. But one thing I did
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realize is we knew nothing.
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I'm always the one asking the questions. Well, so how come that happens?
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Oh, we don't actually know.
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So how come that happens? Oh, we don't actually know. So how does it really
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work? Oh, we don't actually know. But here are the theories. But theories?
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And that's where that desire to understand just blossomed in me.
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And you go down this path of explaining what we do in scientific terms,
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resonates with me because I feel that one of the biggest missing links in our
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profession is the lack of universality of what we say and how we say it.
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So everybody has a different definition of a subluxation.
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There's as many different definitions of subluxations as you have chiropractors.
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So we need to start bringing everything to the center.
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And I'm hoping that's what this basic science will do, Mark,
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because it is coming together.
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And the interesting thing is it sort of bridges the gap between what clinicians
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see in practice with science, with solid science, even explains why some of
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our clinical trials don't have the great outcomes that we're expecting.
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Like, give you an example, some of the clinical trials that are being done,
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they might have like five adjustment sessions, what they call spinal manipulation, right?
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And that might be done by physical therapists, which might just manipulate where someone hurts, right?
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Whereas when you look at the neuroscience of it, it seems to matter significantly
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where you apply that high-velocity, low-amplitude thrust.
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If you're actually directing it at a subluxated segment or some kind of spinal dysfunction,
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You have the big changes in the brain. You don't get those if you're putting
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that HVLA thrust into a healthy joint.
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And it makes sense neuroscience-wise because if you've got healthy,
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plump, movable muscles and you stretch them, yeah, okay.
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But if you've got atrophied, shrunken, fatty infiltrated, changed fiber types,
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stiff fibrotic muscles and you stretch them and they haven't been talking to
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the brain for God knows years, of course there's going to be a physiological difference.
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And it seems to me that lack of information leads to these negative changes
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in the way the brain perceives what's happening either inside your body or the world around you.
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Hence, you can end up with so many different kinds of symptoms.
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And of course, when you get adjusted and the brain wakes up,
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it's only going to correct what that subluxation and that lack of brain information
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was causing symptom-wise.
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So for one person, even though it's a C1 on the left, for one person that might
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change their headaches and sleep patterns.
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For another, it might be that their gut function improves and their
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heart blood pressure medication suddenly drops down and but it's still just
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a c1 subluxation you know like it's right everybody can't yet identify what
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the subluxation patterns are causing symptom wise there's too many yet no one so
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I have to ask this i'm the lay person in this group right now right so doc let
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me ask you this question because Dr.
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Davini and I have talked about this on other episodes.
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You got 100 chiropractors in the room, 100 chiropractors will palpate and come
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up with 100 different things.
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Will your research standardize that, do you think?
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I don't like the word standardization, first and foremost. And I think there
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is, I have utmost respect for clinicians because they're really artists, right?
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You know, if I tried to tell, you know, Picasso how to paint,
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it wouldn't end up a masterpiece, right?
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So I don't like telling chiropractors how to suck eggs, basically.
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But can we dive into it, Paul, and better understand what these various different
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clinicians are finding and doing?
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That absolutely we can. And what we might find is that different approaches
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or techniques actually activate slightly different tissues and have a slightly different response.
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But what's really interesting, Paul, is we've done some clinical trials,
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again, where we've had multiple different chiropractors doing vastly different
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kind of techniques, anything from drop table to activator technique to diversified or Gonstead, right?
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Very, very different. Funnily enough, they're all getting the positive change.
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In particular, this one study, we had older adults that all picked up.
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So it's almost like I think once we get our students to a certain level,
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they'll accidentally get people better.
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But as they fine-tune it and hone their skills and their expertise and their
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communication and their intent, we're even going right into,
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I'm going to hopefully blow your mind here, Paul.
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I actually think physiologically we can actually change someone else's physiology
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with our mind or our energy.
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Not quite sure if that's mirror neurons or what it is but
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we're even starting to record brain waves
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from both the doctor and the patient at the same time
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because I think this is where technique masters are going to come out and shine
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is I think we have this ability to tune into each other like there's this this
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is called hyper scanning in the neuroscience literature and they've shown things
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like if a mama plays with her newborn baby baby's brain synchronizes with mom's
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brain And I think there might be something like that going on.
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So this isn't just about forces into a spine.
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It's about how you connect with that human being, how you tune into their physiology,
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and your, I think even like right down to your intent matters,
00:15:32.188 --> 00:15:35.388
which is why we're, you know, you've got to break all of this apart.
00:15:35.488 --> 00:15:38.408
And this is where you've got these different, you know, artists,
00:15:39.028 --> 00:15:42.128
you know, I mean, I can see Mark's just about jumping on his seat here wanting to say something.
00:15:42.788 --> 00:15:50.308
I mean, I get excited with you, so excuse my enthusiasm, but it's exactly what a lot of, we'll say,
00:15:50.468 --> 00:15:55.508
I'm going to say more contemporary chiropractors need to hear that this is not
00:15:55.508 --> 00:16:00.108
so mechanistic that you just do this and everything works,
00:16:00.128 --> 00:16:06.868
that there is a vibrational component to what we do and that healer type of
00:16:06.868 --> 00:16:08.828
mindset, if you want to use older terms.
00:16:08.828 --> 00:16:12.748
But one way or another, we are not just technicians.
00:16:13.751 --> 00:16:17.631
And I mean, that's one of the things, again, that New Zealand does so well.
00:16:17.871 --> 00:16:21.911
Like the college, the association, the board, A1, we all speak to each other.
00:16:22.111 --> 00:16:25.371
You know, we don't bitch about each other. You know, we actually have an agreement
00:16:25.371 --> 00:16:28.731
that if something's a bit off, you pick up the phone and you speak to each other.
00:16:28.931 --> 00:16:34.091
But anyway, that's this interconnectedness. But also, we have this respect for
00:16:34.091 --> 00:16:37.591
the art, the science, and the philosophy.
00:16:38.111 --> 00:16:41.811
So like I'll be brought in, for example, when my Gonstead lecture goes.
00:16:41.871 --> 00:16:45.811
Now, I do know that, you know, back in the days, Gonstead adjustments are brilliant,
00:16:45.871 --> 00:16:48.371
but I do know that we don't relieve pressure off squash and over it.
00:16:48.411 --> 00:16:51.411
So Heidi, could you come in and explain how we might impact organs?
00:16:51.531 --> 00:16:53.611
Because I know we can. And I'm like, yeah, absolutely.
00:16:53.911 --> 00:16:58.751
And I go in to the Gonstead class and explain now with the latest science,
00:16:59.091 --> 00:17:03.951
you know, what some of these geniuses from the past, they might have had a few things wrong.
00:17:04.291 --> 00:17:07.631
You know, funnily enough, even Aristotle and Newton And, you know,
00:17:07.731 --> 00:17:10.131
these guys got a few things wrong, too. And that's OK.
00:17:10.571 --> 00:17:14.251
Doesn't mean we need to hide them in the closet, you know, and we have our own.
00:17:14.431 --> 00:17:20.011
Like, it's unreal what Didi and BJ and Gonson, some of these massive people came with.
00:17:20.980 --> 00:17:25.200
We actually have less of these contemporary gurus, but we have some. We have some.
00:17:25.460 --> 00:17:29.660
And I like to study them if I can. You know, I rope them into an experiment
00:17:29.660 --> 00:17:33.640
because there's something they do, not that we can explain it all.
00:17:33.740 --> 00:17:39.640
So it's that interaction. And it's not just a HVLA force or manipulation into a particular segment.
00:17:39.760 --> 00:17:41.980
Yeah, it's not. There's the whole interaction.
00:17:42.360 --> 00:17:45.640
There's the biopsychosocial interactions that take place.
00:17:45.740 --> 00:17:50.680
But there's also something very unique with that thrust at a subluxated segment.
00:17:52.160 --> 00:17:54.700
I don't like to move away from it either, you know?
00:17:55.000 --> 00:17:58.000
We see that in our group. You know, we're in contact with literally hundreds
00:17:58.000 --> 00:17:59.260
and hundreds of people a month.
00:17:59.560 --> 00:18:05.260
And there's definitely a pattern going on where it's becoming less,
00:18:05.560 --> 00:18:11.800
doctors are starting to feel like they have less impact on, we'll say, the world.
00:18:11.800 --> 00:18:17.420
And they're almost their worst enemy and letting them think that they do so
00:18:17.420 --> 00:18:22.200
little for somebody now that it's starting to take its toll on their attitudes
00:18:22.200 --> 00:18:24.140
toward chiropractic in their practice.
00:18:24.620 --> 00:18:27.760
I see that a lot, Mark, when I'm around giving talks to chiropractors.
00:18:28.020 --> 00:18:33.700
You would not believe how many, in particular, older chiropractors almost come
00:18:33.700 --> 00:18:39.600
up crying after a talk and going, like you've given me back the understanding
00:18:39.600 --> 00:18:42.660
of the power of the adjustment and what it is I do.
00:18:42.760 --> 00:18:48.040
And I'm kind of hoping that as a profession, we can at least band around this thing about the spine.
00:18:48.160 --> 00:18:53.500
And that's our core thing. I don't mind. You can have whatever scope you want. I really don't care.
00:18:53.640 --> 00:18:58.360
But if we can at least agree on that the main thing that we're very,
00:18:58.480 --> 00:19:00.920
very good at is improving the function of the spine.
00:19:01.120 --> 00:19:05.220
And I'm even into different techniques. That doesn't worry me either.
00:19:05.340 --> 00:19:09.940
So long as that's our core function, that we're improving that spinal function
00:19:09.940 --> 00:19:14.900
through whatever techniques we use, which usually involves some HVLA thrusts
00:19:14.900 --> 00:19:17.000
at dysfunctional segments or subluxations.
00:19:17.937 --> 00:19:22.777
And then that's a way we can unite about what's uniquely us, you know.
00:19:22.877 --> 00:19:25.957
And it's totally cool if you can also, you know, do minor surgery.
00:19:26.117 --> 00:19:30.357
I don't care. But, you know, if you've got the qualifications and you might
00:19:30.357 --> 00:19:34.637
be in an area where people don't have anything else, of course, you go for it.
00:19:34.697 --> 00:19:37.217
But just this is our core thing.
00:19:37.357 --> 00:19:40.677
And that's why it's so easy for me to speak to other professions as well.
00:19:40.797 --> 00:19:43.697
Like, I mean, my uncle's a physiotherapist. We have great conversations.
00:19:43.697 --> 00:19:47.557
They're all excited about how we could start the studies together where we can
00:19:47.557 --> 00:19:51.277
activate these core muscles and the feed-forward activation of different muscles
00:19:51.277 --> 00:19:54.617
and we could do that in these stroke populations. And I'm like, yeah, we can.
00:19:54.817 --> 00:19:58.037
We've even done three or four, five studies now in stroke victims,
00:19:58.277 --> 00:20:02.617
survivors, stroke survivors, that shows not only do we make their brain able
00:20:02.617 --> 00:20:08.757
to contract that muscle that they've lost the function of, partially, improve that.
00:20:08.757 --> 00:20:13.417
But we even see that their functional activities of daily living has a significant
00:20:13.417 --> 00:20:14.937
improvement above physiotherapy.
00:20:15.237 --> 00:20:18.177
So physiotherapy alone has a clinically meaningful improvement,
00:20:18.357 --> 00:20:22.417
but you add chiropractic and it is another clinically meaningful improvement beyond that.
00:20:22.637 --> 00:20:29.257
So there's no problem to have these interdisciplinary conversations because to me, this is our core.
00:20:29.797 --> 00:20:34.437
Some of us are great at all kinds of other things, but this is the core that
00:20:34.437 --> 00:20:38.897
makes us unique. and it actually seems to make all other things function better.
00:20:39.077 --> 00:20:43.577
So I quite like to position chiropractic as like the foundation that the other
00:20:43.577 --> 00:20:45.857
pillars of health stand on.
00:20:46.619 --> 00:20:50.499
For example, like breaking it down real simple, if we're adjusting and enabling
00:20:50.499 --> 00:20:54.099
the brain to markedly perceive what's going on, it should be able to digest
00:20:54.099 --> 00:20:56.899
food better, right? Because it's markedly aware of what's going on.
00:20:57.079 --> 00:21:01.019
You should be able to hear better, see better, integrate what's going on around
00:21:01.019 --> 00:21:05.759
you, inside you better, move your arms and legs in a more appropriate fashion.
00:21:06.139 --> 00:21:08.819
Like even people that go to the gym all the time, yeah, it's great.
00:21:08.979 --> 00:21:11.919
But if you're going to the gym and you're really subluxated,
00:21:12.179 --> 00:21:15.519
you could be causing a whole lot of micro traumas because you might be sending
00:21:15.519 --> 00:21:18.019
the wrong messages because oddly enough,
00:21:18.379 --> 00:21:23.579
our arms and legs attach to the spine, either directly or indirectly.
00:21:24.359 --> 00:21:26.559
Tell an insurance company that for me, would you?
00:21:27.019 --> 00:21:31.539
I know. The brain can't send the right messages to your arms and legs about
00:21:31.539 --> 00:21:35.879
how to contract their muscles if it's not aware of where your core is. I mean, it's like, duh.
00:21:36.359 --> 00:21:40.139
But, you know, and most public have no problem understanding this if you actually
00:21:40.139 --> 00:21:42.639
speak to them in these sort of, you know, these terms.
00:21:43.019 --> 00:21:43.179
Does it,
00:21:45.339 --> 00:21:49.619
It's the duh that the June universally is missing.
00:21:50.139 --> 00:21:55.159
Where we have a challenge here in the United States is that we've got a third-party
00:21:55.159 --> 00:21:59.939
health coverage system that doesn't really believe what you just said.
00:22:00.139 --> 00:22:04.419
And they put us in the same—us chiropractors, let's say I'm not a chiropractor,
00:22:04.459 --> 00:22:12.959
but chiropractic profession—in the same pool as physical therapists or massage—I'm a massage therapist.
00:22:12.959 --> 00:22:17.239
So you really resonated with me when you talked about going on the same wavelength
00:22:17.239 --> 00:22:21.159
and that biofeedback and that, you know,
00:22:23.051 --> 00:22:27.051
fill in the blank, that nondescript connection you have with your client or
00:22:27.051 --> 00:22:31.271
your patient that brings you towards working with them in the way that you,
00:22:31.311 --> 00:22:33.311
if you're getting that feedback from them.
00:22:33.771 --> 00:22:37.991
And I think that's kind of a key in many different things. Like I think when
00:22:37.991 --> 00:22:39.651
you think about even what, what is exercise?
00:22:39.911 --> 00:22:43.011
Well, you're repeatedly contracting the same muscles, which send information
00:22:43.011 --> 00:22:46.871
to the brain, which enables the brain to more accurately perceive what's going on in those muscles.
00:22:46.991 --> 00:22:51.511
So, or if you're using acupuncture or massage, again, it's bringing awareness
00:22:51.511 --> 00:22:53.231
to the brain about what's going on.
00:22:53.411 --> 00:22:57.831
I just think there's something remarkably unique about the adjustment because
00:22:57.831 --> 00:23:00.411
those muscles have not functioned so well for so long.
00:23:00.631 --> 00:23:03.991
And I'm well aware of what's going on in the States and it's absolutely mental.
00:23:04.251 --> 00:23:08.211
Excuse my, I was actually quite gentle with the terminology.
00:23:08.471 --> 00:23:11.571
I was just going to say, we can join you on going other places with it.
00:23:11.691 --> 00:23:15.991
We can bleep on that one. I'm even part of this organization in the United States
00:23:15.991 --> 00:23:19.511
called Chiropractic Future. So we've put together a strategic plan.
00:23:19.691 --> 00:23:25.511
We all donate our time. amazing group of chiros and non-chiros and working towards
00:23:25.511 --> 00:23:30.571
changing these things, Paul, because we have to come together as a group and do that.
00:23:30.711 --> 00:23:33.971
It's not something... So again, if there's chiros out there that would like
00:23:33.971 --> 00:23:39.611
to see this happen in the future, please check out that chiropracticfuture.org, I think is the website.
00:23:40.131 --> 00:23:42.771
And help us become part of it.
00:23:43.211 --> 00:23:46.571
Make a little donation every month, like freaking $50 or something.
00:23:46.771 --> 00:23:51.651
It's not that hard. And if we can come together, then we can quite calmly explain
00:23:51.651 --> 00:23:54.691
the science, you know, and we actually have science now.
00:23:55.333 --> 00:23:59.993
Up until the last 25 years, we didn't have scientifically supported,
00:24:00.273 --> 00:24:05.833
biologically plausible mechanisms to explain how our adjustments work. We do now.
00:24:06.113 --> 00:24:09.953
Not only that, we've got the capacity, like we're doing a study showing that
00:24:09.953 --> 00:24:14.433
the brain is sending different messages to, say, our arm muscles during a muscle test.
00:24:14.573 --> 00:24:18.313
And I'm sure there's chiropractors out there that use the muscle test in practice.
00:24:18.493 --> 00:24:21.793
And that's just been looked at as airy-fairy bullshit. And I'm like,
00:24:21.973 --> 00:24:24.533
nah, I've practiced that way myself.
00:24:25.153 --> 00:24:27.233
You know, and again, I didn't have all these biases. I was like,
00:24:27.313 --> 00:24:29.513
well, what do you mean? I'm an AK practitioner. What are you talking about?
00:24:30.253 --> 00:24:35.933
What? You know, and then we're now exploring it with really solid neuroscience.
00:24:36.333 --> 00:24:38.953
I mean, I'm only in the room to provide the adjustment. You know,
00:24:39.053 --> 00:24:43.133
it's these incredibly smart bioengineers that are collecting all the data and
00:24:43.133 --> 00:24:46.933
decomposing the motor units into, you know, into individual motor units from
00:24:46.933 --> 00:24:50.933
the EMG and can tell me now with solid data that, no, no,
00:24:51.313 --> 00:24:55.913
when you're muscle testing and you're, you know, doing a challenge or a therapy
00:24:55.913 --> 00:24:59.313
localization, for example, I'm just saying as an example that patients touching
00:24:59.313 --> 00:25:01.793
a subluxated segment or the chiropractor is,
00:25:02.333 --> 00:25:04.953
the brain changes its control of that muscle.
00:25:05.253 --> 00:25:09.853
This isn't something we're making up, you know, and the better we can look into
00:25:09.853 --> 00:25:10.973
these different techniques,
00:25:11.473 --> 00:25:14.233
you know, to me, like I won't knock any techniques anymore, nothing,
00:25:14.413 --> 00:25:17.613
because to me, it's just something that we haven't scientifically explored yet,
00:25:17.633 --> 00:25:23.213
but we are We are our own biggest problem too, Paul, because we do not fund research.
00:25:23.853 --> 00:25:28.233
We do not put money into research. Where are we getting our research dollars from?
00:25:28.733 --> 00:25:32.053
I mean, most schools can't even afford to keep a PhD anymore.
00:25:32.453 --> 00:25:36.113
It's really sad. And these are the things that have to change.
00:25:37.059 --> 00:25:42.399
For us to have a future that our patients deserve that we do.
00:25:42.919 --> 00:25:45.999
We've got to sort our own shit out so that our patients get access to this.
00:25:46.139 --> 00:25:51.699
The reason it drives me is I've seen this in children and babies and animals,
00:25:51.699 --> 00:25:56.619
and they deserve a life where they can function at their optimal potential.
00:25:57.359 --> 00:26:01.559
There's nothing sadder to me than seeing a little kid who's clumsy as anything,
00:26:02.819 --> 00:26:06.859
Bedwetting, migraines, whatever, their quality of life, their belief in themselves,
00:26:07.059 --> 00:26:08.679
It's just destroyed, right?
00:26:08.839 --> 00:26:12.419
And we know we can make a difference. And that's, they deserve us.
00:26:12.719 --> 00:26:16.639
But that's, we've got to come together or this isn't going to happen.
00:26:16.659 --> 00:26:22.639
Let me connect the dots with that, with a really cool platform that you have, chiroshub.com, right?
00:26:22.879 --> 00:26:26.819
I went on there and I said, wow, look at these really, you have some sample
00:26:26.819 --> 00:26:34.099
videos, it looks like, of how a chiropractor can help educate their patients without, without,
00:26:34.439 --> 00:26:38.359
you know, just in a waiting room, I guess, or wherever you want. Yeah.
00:26:38.719 --> 00:26:41.079
It's pretty cool. And with easy language, right? Yeah.
00:26:41.419 --> 00:26:46.979
Right, because I think there is a challenge. I don't think it really matters
00:26:46.979 --> 00:26:51.379
what age the chiropractor is or how long they've been in chiropractic.
00:26:51.579 --> 00:26:55.959
I think there's a challenge because I think the patient base has changed and
00:26:55.959 --> 00:27:00.479
information is everywhere and not all information is good information.
00:27:00.479 --> 00:27:06.899
And so I enjoyed looking at the Chiro's Hub website that you have because I'm
00:27:06.899 --> 00:27:12.259
like, look at how cool this is and a really easy way to digest as a layperson.
00:27:12.259 --> 00:27:14.839
I'm not a chiropractor, right? I've been around him long enough, but…
00:27:15.120 --> 00:27:16.100
you know.
00:27:16.280 --> 00:27:21.340
I built this, Paul, because I was realizing that, you know, when you do a PhD,
00:27:21.540 --> 00:27:24.840
you spend five years learning a language that most people don't understand, right?
00:27:25.080 --> 00:27:28.380
And it took me a while when I was teaching the students at the New Zealand College
00:27:28.380 --> 00:27:31.680
of Chiropractic about the science that they weren't understanding me.
00:27:31.760 --> 00:27:35.180
And I saw that in my course evaluations. I cried sometimes. It was so bad.
00:27:35.400 --> 00:27:39.660
So I just kept trying to improve and improve. So I've built an entire library
00:27:39.660 --> 00:27:42.960
now, Paul, for chiropractors to learn the science because many chiropractors
00:27:42.960 --> 00:27:44.860
don't even know their own science.
00:27:45.020 --> 00:27:48.460
They don't know what's been done in the last 25 years.
00:27:48.960 --> 00:27:54.880
And it's not just our research. We've sort of translated the science from other research areas as well.
00:27:55.120 --> 00:27:59.420
But then I figured out that the students understood me because I assessed them
00:27:59.420 --> 00:28:03.920
properly, but they still couldn't communicate it in the chiropractic center
00:28:03.920 --> 00:28:07.000
with their patients. So I'm like, I've got to give them the lay language.
00:28:07.180 --> 00:28:09.460
I've got to provide them with the next level as well.
00:28:09.960 --> 00:28:13.560
And again, that's why we built that Chiros Hub. So in our memberships on Chiros
00:28:13.560 --> 00:28:16.240
Hub, you get basically access to this huge library.
00:28:16.460 --> 00:28:20.020
People say it feels like I'm drinking from a fire hose. I realize that.
00:28:20.220 --> 00:28:25.620
But it's very valuable because once you start digesting it and get into it,
00:28:25.940 --> 00:28:29.360
there's classes there for you chiropractors that have the physiology and the
00:28:30.000 --> 00:28:33.960
Understanding of science, so not just that lay language.
00:28:34.140 --> 00:28:37.320
And then there's all the Chiros Hub resources
00:28:37.320 --> 00:28:40.120
which is for patients so that you've got both there so
00:28:40.120 --> 00:28:42.900
if if one of the videos and you don't know the science behind
00:28:42.900 --> 00:28:45.740
it but you'd like to be able to you can go and see the
00:28:45.740 --> 00:28:48.420
corresponding class there but we've put
00:28:48.420 --> 00:28:51.320
it out now in many and many different topics again anything
00:28:51.320 --> 00:28:54.580
from bed what's the science but it's all what does
00:28:54.580 --> 00:28:57.900
the evidence tell us and then I've translated that
00:28:57.900 --> 00:29:00.980
into lay language to make that easy for
00:29:00.980 --> 00:29:05.080
chiropractors to share with their patients we've even gone so far now because
00:29:05.080 --> 00:29:08.240
i've realized too mark that funnily enough chiropractors don't want to do anything
00:29:08.240 --> 00:29:13.860
they're already too too busy and burned out so we've created a bronze level
00:29:13.860 --> 00:29:17.620
now and at least let me share the science with your patients you don't have
00:29:17.620 --> 00:29:19.620
to do anything you don't have to learn anything
00:29:20.225 --> 00:29:23.705
And that's that lowest level of membership where you get a QR code, okay?
00:29:23.945 --> 00:29:30.165
All you need to do is throw the QR code to your patients and they can access this information.
00:29:30.505 --> 00:29:34.425
If we were to ask you, you know, because we could do this for about the next 40 hours,
00:29:34.605 --> 00:29:41.605
but if we were to ask you, like, what would you say to a chiropractor that would
00:29:41.605 --> 00:29:48.705
transmit at least broadly what you've been saying for the last 30 minutes or so?
00:29:50.752 --> 00:29:56.512
Um, I'd say own your science. So like there is a large body of science that own your science.
00:29:57.992 --> 00:30:01.392
And when you start digesting the science, I think you'll also look after yourself
00:30:01.392 --> 00:30:03.832
better because I think a lot of chiropractors are very burnt out.
00:30:04.212 --> 00:30:07.812
One of the, one of the most amazing feedbacks I get from going through some
00:30:07.812 --> 00:30:12.592
of my programs is my chiropractors are telling me that they're getting adjusted more regularly.
00:30:12.912 --> 00:30:16.772
Like that is gold because if that's what the science is telling them,
00:30:16.872 --> 00:30:18.532
that's exactly what it's telling the patients.
00:30:18.732 --> 00:30:22.672
You know, and I do the same thing. I pay for my care. I pay for my husband's
00:30:22.672 --> 00:30:24.472
care, my two adult kids and my staff.
00:30:25.032 --> 00:30:28.232
The whole research team. You know, at the New Zealand College now,
00:30:28.352 --> 00:30:33.912
we have over 35 researchers in our research center alone. I think it makes us
00:30:33.912 --> 00:30:37.652
the largest research center on the planet that's studying chiropractic.
00:30:38.252 --> 00:30:43.532
So yeah, I'd say own your science and look after your own spine because it wouldn't
00:30:43.532 --> 00:30:46.292
surprise me if you're not actually doing that well enough because that will
00:30:46.292 --> 00:30:49.652
enable your brain to function at its optimal potential,
00:30:49.652 --> 00:30:53.992
which means you can make better choices and just function better.
00:30:54.172 --> 00:30:57.372
I am shocked at how many contractors don't get adjusted regularly.
00:30:58.312 --> 00:30:59.672
Isn't that a trap? It's staggering.
00:31:00.672 --> 00:31:02.612
It's unbelievable. It's unbelievable.
00:31:02.912 --> 00:31:05.652
Yet they tell their patients how important it is to be regular.
00:31:06.112 --> 00:31:08.952
Yeah, but I don't think they understand it. They don't, yeah.
00:31:09.172 --> 00:31:11.832
That shows a complete lack of understanding in my mind.
00:31:12.272 --> 00:31:16.812
Truly. Hence, own your science, guys. Right. It's there now.
00:31:16.952 --> 00:31:18.652
Here you go. That's the line.
00:31:18.832 --> 00:31:21.452
Hence, neuroscience. I love it.
00:31:21.872 --> 00:31:22.532
100%, Mark.
00:31:22.592 --> 00:31:26.872
On a different note, when someone uses your accent, how many times do they ask
00:31:26.872 --> 00:31:27.632
you about Lord of the Rings?
00:31:28.606 --> 00:31:34.706
All the time. Yeah, all the time. And Hobbiton, you know. There is a place called Hobbiton.
00:31:35.326 --> 00:31:37.426
So, yeah, it's Peter Jackson.
00:31:37.426 --> 00:31:38.746
Beautiful country.
00:31:38.906 --> 00:31:40.046
Incredible thing there for us.
00:31:40.126 --> 00:31:43.346
Have you actually taken that Lord of the Rings tour that they offer?
00:31:44.026 --> 00:31:46.766
My kids are absolute fanatics. Are they?
00:31:46.786 --> 00:31:51.626
So, yes, Paul, we've gone through, you know, again, Harry Potter World when
00:31:51.626 --> 00:31:54.286
we go through Orlando. Yeah, you know, so many times.
00:31:54.686 --> 00:31:58.746
Anyway, and we've gone on these Lord of the Rings tours. and I've been through
00:31:58.746 --> 00:32:02.166
Hobbiton at least 10 times. It's just unreal.
00:32:02.966 --> 00:32:05.926
But there's so much because it was filmed all over the place.
00:32:07.146 --> 00:32:09.526
There's some in the South Island, there's some in the North Island.
00:32:09.606 --> 00:32:13.486
So I probably haven't explored all of it yet, but a lot, yes.
00:32:13.766 --> 00:32:16.586
And I get my kids, they're like right down to this. Remember,
00:32:16.726 --> 00:32:18.366
this is what was, oh, yeah, okay.
00:32:18.486 --> 00:32:18.926
Yeah, sure.
00:32:20.786 --> 00:32:25.086
It's not chiropractic neuroscience. It's irrelevant information for my brain.
00:32:25.206 --> 00:32:29.706
Yeah, right. The hobbits would be taller if they could adjust it. Yeah, exactly.
00:32:31.086 --> 00:32:36.206
So I guess there is something you have coming up that you would like to mention.
00:32:36.626 --> 00:32:40.706
Thank you. What I do too is I put together these little masterclasses just for
00:32:40.706 --> 00:32:44.186
chiropractors that aren't necessarily willing to go right into the science and
00:32:44.186 --> 00:32:46.646
own it all yet, just to get a feel for what we now know.
00:32:46.826 --> 00:32:50.386
So I've got one coming up, which is so incredible. So I call them masterclasses.
00:32:50.486 --> 00:32:53.386
They're about two hours. Sometimes they end up longer because I stay until all
00:32:53.386 --> 00:32:54.406
the questions have been addressed.
00:32:54.986 --> 00:32:59.746
But this, I've done some on how to explain the new science, how to explain it
00:32:59.746 --> 00:33:03.986
to healthcare providers, how do we affect organs, and this one coming up now
00:33:03.986 --> 00:33:06.526
is the connection between chiropractic and the immune system.
00:33:06.686 --> 00:33:11.386
So I wrote a review in 2021 during COVID, but we've recently done a clinical
00:33:11.386 --> 00:33:13.746
trial looking at all these different neuroimmune markers.
00:33:14.306 --> 00:33:17.586
Like an example, one of them is called brain-derived neurotrophic factor.
00:33:17.806 --> 00:33:21.886
This is like literally, if it increases, your health has gone up,
00:33:22.206 --> 00:33:26.606
right? if it decreases, your health has gone down, your brain health. Now, we've shown over
00:33:27.409 --> 00:33:30.889
how many weeks was it? I can't remember. I'll be telling you properly in the
00:33:30.889 --> 00:33:32.469
actual masterclass coming up.
00:33:32.709 --> 00:33:37.329
But there's an increase over a period of 12 weeks of care.
00:33:38.169 --> 00:33:40.689
But there's all these other neuroimmune markers. And then again,
00:33:40.709 --> 00:33:44.989
I'll go into how do you explain that? It's actually really basic and easy.
00:33:45.249 --> 00:33:48.289
And this is what scientists are well aware of.
00:33:48.509 --> 00:33:51.829
So adding in that extra why we would affect the immune system is there.
00:33:51.949 --> 00:33:56.829
And I'll go through these unbelievable findings from some of our latest neuroimmune.
00:33:57.149 --> 00:34:00.629
One is published. We've got another one now showing the changes in gene expression.
00:34:01.029 --> 00:34:03.789
So you know how epigenetics works, right? That your environment,
00:34:03.909 --> 00:34:07.569
what's happening to you changes, turns on some genes, turns off others.
00:34:07.749 --> 00:34:12.709
Well, oh my goodness me, we've just recently got the results from a study showing
00:34:12.709 --> 00:34:15.449
which genes get turned on from the neuroimmune aspect as well.
00:34:15.609 --> 00:34:16.549
It's just unbelievable.
00:34:16.749 --> 00:34:21.529
Because when you get multiple studies from different people measuring different
00:34:21.529 --> 00:34:25.549
things, but they're all telling the same story, That's where my conviction comes from.
00:34:25.689 --> 00:34:28.989
I have no doubt when I speak. And I'm not saying I know everything,
00:34:29.029 --> 00:34:30.429
but what I do know, I know.
00:34:30.569 --> 00:34:34.509
I know, you know. There's no doubt about that. But we're still exploring,
00:34:34.549 --> 00:34:37.909
you know, all these other ideas that, you know, we could be affecting as well.
00:34:38.029 --> 00:34:39.849
God, you've got to shut me up. I'll just keep going.
00:34:40.609 --> 00:34:45.609
We're just grateful to have you in our profession and to let the chiropractors
00:34:45.609 --> 00:34:49.829
understand they're more than just back doctors, that they actually serve a greater
00:34:49.829 --> 00:34:53.069
purpose and that their practices serve people in a greater way.
00:34:53.069 --> 00:34:56.509
Thank you so much for taking the time to do this with us.
00:34:57.135 --> 00:35:00.435
Absolute pleasure. I'll chat with you guys anytime. Love you to meet you.
00:35:00.435 --> 00:35:03.315
Love your passion. I'm going to hold you to that. And you're very charming.
00:35:03.495 --> 00:35:07.075
So you could tell me off and I probably would just say thank you because of
00:35:07.075 --> 00:35:09.255
how you deliver it and your accent.
00:35:09.655 --> 00:35:12.095
But you realize what words I would use, though, eh?
00:35:12.375 --> 00:35:15.635
Yeah. I've been in your lecture.
00:35:16.275 --> 00:35:18.795
That's with an F and ends with off, you know?
00:35:19.315 --> 00:35:26.255
Yeah. So, yeah. So, those that are listening, we'll put links so you can find out more about Dr.
00:35:26.355 --> 00:35:30.595
Havoc in our YouTube and our social media channels. So, you can grab that if
00:35:30.595 --> 00:35:31.715
you need that and want that.
00:35:32.135 --> 00:35:35.075
And we just thank you so much for taking the time. It's been amazing.
00:35:36.395 --> 00:35:39.395
Absolute pleasure, Paul, Mark. Absolute pleasure.
00:35:39.395 --> 00:35:42.755
Appreciate it all. So, that was Dr. Heidi Havoc. Thank you so much for listening
00:35:42.755 --> 00:35:44.855
to another episode of All Things Chiropractic.
00:35:44.995 --> 00:35:40.975
I'm Paul Andrews.
00:35:40.995 --> 00:35:48.975
And I'm Dr. Mark Davini. Thank you all. Thanks for listening
00:35:48.975 --> 00:35:50.535
to All Things Chiropractic.
00:35:50.875 --> 00:35:55.595
We'd love to hear from you. Visit allthingschiropractic.com with comments,
00:35:55.755 --> 00:35:57.295
episode ideas, or questions.
00:35:57.855 --> 00:36:02.195
Or connect with us on Facebook and Instagram at All Things Chiropractic Podcast.
00:36:02.695 --> 00:36:07.275
Be sure to join Dr. Mark Davini and Paul Andrews next time for another episode
00:36:07.275 --> 00:36:09.055
of All Things Chiropractic.