Ellen Heuer | Creating Something Out Of Nothing

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Hello and welcome to All Lit Up with me, Gilly
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Fogg, head creative at Lighthouse Studios in
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Kilkenny, Ireland. In this series, we talk to
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creative people in the world of animation, film,
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TV and more about their work and their life,
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shining a light on what they do. Today we're
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talking about a creative art that's little celebrated.
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Foley, the art of performing sound in sync to
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what's happening on screen. It adds richness,
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texture and emotion and takes precision and skill
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to get it right. My Foley artist guest is Ellen
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Heuer, an award -winning Foley artist who has
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worked on a slew of Hollywood hits and with some
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of the greatest directors of the last 40 years.
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Ellen has a lovely, easy energy, and from her
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home in LA, where wind chimes tinkled in the
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background, she took time to look back on her
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career and reflect. Hello, Ellen. Thank you so
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much for joining us on All Lit Up. You have been
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a Foley artist for over 45 years. Indeed, I have.
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Long enough to have kissed every single male,
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female celebrity, you know. It's been a long
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journey. Wow. Is that part of the job? The sound.
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Oh, the sound. Yeah. I've kissed almost every
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leading man and woman in Hollywood at this point.
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I've just done so many films that that's one
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of the sounds. That's one of the most sought
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after sounds. People kissing. Going right back
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in time, you began life as a dancer. I did. I
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did and serendipitously found my way to doing
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this. I was choreographing a stage play, Binion's
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Rainbow, fresh out of, you know, UCLA dance.
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And I was asked to play the part of Susan the
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Silent, who's a girl who couldn't speak. She
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could only dance what she wanted to say. And
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I turned it down because I was overwhelmed. trying
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to keep a bunch of non -dancers from breaking
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their necks on an uneven stage and it was a lot
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of work to make it interesting and the director
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just didn't give up and i'm glad he didn't because
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i finally accepted i just thought the idea of
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dancing what you wanted to say was a very intriguing
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project and i knew i could do it easily because
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i loved music so much and Long story short, there
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was a girl there who came in as an understudy
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one night, and we became fast friends. She had
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a photographic memory and had to learn all the
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dance numbers, all the musical numbers in one
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night. We fast became friends, and I admitted
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to her that I was tired of being a struggling,
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poor dancer. She said, well, come into this thing
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with me. Dancers are really good at it. you know,
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your timing and rhythm. You set the coffee cup
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down the same time they do. And I couldn't even
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fathom what it was. But I just thought, well,
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they're going to pay me how much? I can do that.
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I'll do that. Yeah. And I just was really, it
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just came so naturally to me. Having had, I mean,
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my dance teachers were my real mentors. Because
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when you have to learn long bouts of complicated
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choreography, you develop a certain way of just
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interfacing with your world. But to then just
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walk actors... was a walk in the park for me
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by the time I got to the Foley stage I just already
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had what it took so to speak well I think for
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those listeners who might be saying I cannot
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fathom what Foley is can you please give us a
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short definition just to set the scene on this
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conversation about what it is that you do yeah
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well whenever there's a need a film gets you
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know put on the foreign market you need to replace
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the dialogue with French or German or whatever
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and you lose all of the production. So the production
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has to be redone in a controlled environment
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later. Primarily when you're on the set you want
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to get dialogue so the microphone is up here
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so you can get the dialogue but then it misses
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out on all the other subtleties of footsteps
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or you know, hand things or whatever. If they're
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sipping wine, putting down the glass, all of
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that is done afterwards. It's all filled in later
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so that they can control on the final mix how
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to place things. If the director wants to play
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something up or if he doesn't want to hear anything
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at all, maybe like in All That Jazz where he's
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doing a film about himself. There were scenes
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that the directors didn't want to hear anything
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because we wanted to go inside of Bob Fosse's
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brain. And so we just played, you know, dimmed
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out the dialogue and just played the creaky wood
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chair or the cigarette being put out or the pencil
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breaks and his breath. And it's very captivating
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to play with sound. like that. Yeah. Yeah. And
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I think when I think when people have Foley in
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mind, you know, they people generally understand
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it as sound effects and that a Foley artist might
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be creating the sound effect, you know, custom
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made. But I think what is perhaps little understood
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is that you're performing them. It's a really
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it's a performance art like any other. it is
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it is it has an uncelebrated athleticism all
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its own and it's uh it's imperative to to perform
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with feeling i was i trained as a method actress
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so a lot of this stuff just came natural to me
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um you know to translate feeling in your legs
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one time i had to do this cue for um ironweed
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move ironweed meryl streep jack nicholson there's
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there are a couple of you know, homeless people.
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She's very sick, and I was playing that character
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with her footsteps, but the sound designer, Kay
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Rose, who would supervise the Foley sessions,
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was not hearing the pain in my footsteps. I didn't
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know what to do because I was maybe 25 at the
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time and I'd never experienced that kind of pain.
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So we worked on it, we worked on it, we worked
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on it. And I think at the end of the day, I really
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was in a lot of pain. I don't know if she ever
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got the performance she wanted. You know, I probably
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should have put some little pebbles in my shoe
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to, you know, enhance the sound. But you can
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tell the difference, you know. There needs to
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be an emotional connection to what you're doing.
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You know, a psychological connection to the character.
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You become that person for three weeks or, you
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know, however long you're on that particular
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project. Yeah, because there are so many different
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roles in filmmaking and in our sort of branch
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of it is animated filmmaking. but everyone is
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contributing to the act of storytelling. So I
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imagine that on a sort of a longer schedule,
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bigger budget film, you have the opportunity
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to really sit down with the director and understand
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what it is in any particular scene that he really
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or she really wants to emphasize. Yeah, I had
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the good fortune to work with David Lynch on
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his film Lost Highway. And he was such a casual
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guy, but he meditated, and he had a sort of macabre
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sense of humor. But he was obsessed with hearing
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the sound of this man's head cracking from the
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inside out. And I didn't know what I was going
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to do. So can you explain that a little bit more?
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Well, the character in the film falls back and
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hits his head on a glass coffee table. david
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just wanted to hear it you know cracking like
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it was coming from the inside of his cranium
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and normally what we would do is break some celery
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and you know that's usually our what our go -to
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for bones breaking but i didn't want to do the
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average thing i wanted it to be as unique as
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he was and i came back the next day and i i asked
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the engineer to get me a tiny microphone lavalier
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and I just stuck it in my ear and started chomping
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on celery so that we recorded it like actually
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inside my head and I don't know if it actually
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sounded that much different but David loved the
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idea of it so much you know just physically seeing
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that but I mean that's the kind of stuff we do
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it's just like It's very inventive. It's creating
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something out of nothing. It's turning a kitchen
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sponge into a buttering a sandwich or a, you
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know, frying some bacon for a rain. And Ellen,
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I mean, you've had a long career and you've worked
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on really classic films and classic films have
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a lot of classic sounds, you know, like sounds
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from... what life was like in the 70s, 80s, 90s,
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which was much more analog. You know, there are
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a lot of switches, chains, leather, all of these
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materials that are now sort of old fashioned.
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What do you think life sounds like now? Do you
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think with, you know, our smooth computer interfaces,
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does life sound more synthetic now in contemporary
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films? Well, That's a great question because
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the whole idea with Foley is to make it stay
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in the natural world. And to communicate that,
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it really takes a Foley artist with feelings
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that's performing custom sounds to exact sync
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of what that actor is doing. So it's like painting
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with numbers, but with sound, if you will. And
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it's a lot of fun because It's highly creative.
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It's very exacting. And at the end, you know,
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you told a story. I have some videos I've done
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that are just no dialogue. I just use sound to
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tell the story. And people are completely entertained.
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So I think sometimes sound can carry us like
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a script. And it should be seamless. With Foley,
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there should be no... hint that you're, you know,
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you want to stay immersed in the experience.
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So you want to blend in. So at the same time
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you're making a statement, so to speak, and telling
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your own story, it shouldn't be noticed if it's
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done right, ironically. Foley shouldn't be noticed.
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Maybe that's why nobody knows what it is. I don't
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know. Yeah, only when it's done incorrectly.
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And as I mentioned, we're largely in the world
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of animation. You've worked on some amazing animated
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films, like Ratatouille would be the favorite.
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Did you have to immerse yourself in the world
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of food and restaurants? How did you set up your
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Foley lab for that one? I wish that would have
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been a fun research project. Well, I had two
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other partners and we all would get, sometimes
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there'd be so many characters for Pixar that
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they would storyboard each character because
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they wanted them to have their own unique sounds
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attached to them. So I got to develop, you know,
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Emil, which was... the one who would eat everything
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and always have indigestion. So I made sure he
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had a little squishy sound with a toy. One of
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those eyeballs that's inside of a round plastic
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thing with some water. And then there was films
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like Cars that was really challenging because
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there were no footsteps. And they wanted Mater
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to sound a certain way. Clankies, we had to go
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to a junkyard and get a bunch of different old
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metal parts. The Queen had to be really cool
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and slick and it was hard to make each one of
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them different. I think Sally had to have a really
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smooth chassis and kind of a sexy. And then the
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Incredibles was just a lot of fun as well. I
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got to be Elastigirl and I just used like silk,
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strips of silk for when she would like try to
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seduce Mr. Incredible. And then I'd use strips
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of rubber when she was angry at him. And it's
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amazing how angry rubber can sound if you know
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how to work it. And so going back to the fact
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that Foley is a performance, you're cast as a
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particular character for each scene. Well, or
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for the whole movie, like I would just do one,
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I would stay with one character, like Elastigirl.
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And then someone else would do like Dash and
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someone else would do Mr. Incredible. Are you
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performing at the same time? No, we'd each do,
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you know, one person would do. We'd do one reel
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at a time, which is usually about 10 minutes.
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And so I would do Elastigirl just for that reel.
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And then someone else would come in and do Mr.
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Incredible for that reel. We have wonderful Foley
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artists here in Ireland. best known female Foley
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artists anyway, are definitely Cuiva and Joan
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of the Foley Lab. And their lab is an amazing
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place to visit with so many boxes and shelves
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packed. Can you describe what the studios and
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Foley studios that you worked in were like? How
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did you organize all of that stuff? Well, each
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stage kind of had their own unique style of organization.
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I was commissioned to build a stage in New Mexico
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by an LA -based company called Wildfire. And
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I had the opportunity to build my dream stage,
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which was a stage that was in a circle. And all
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of the surfaces were in a pie, and the mic was
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in the middle. The idea being that you could
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just pivot it to each surface without having
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to pick it up and put it in another square, or
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pick it up and put it in another square. And
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it worked out. It was beautiful. But I liked
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doing it the way I liked it. I like to keep everything
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as much out in the open as possible because I
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like to stay in this creative mode. And if I
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have to stop and go look for something, I'm not
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in creative mode anymore. I'm in frustrated mode.
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I can't find something. And that just was a pet
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peeve of mine, particularly. Most stages, some
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don't have a real filing system. They just are
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not that organized. But the projects I would
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get were so inundated with material, and I had
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to find a super... efficient way to create a
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workflow so that I could get everything done
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on time which was normally not enough time but
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but somehow that's how I could make it work was
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to stay highly organized and and do you know
00:16:26.850 --> 00:16:31.549
all the feet and then do all the props and Ellen
00:16:31.549 --> 00:16:35.289
given that this is a really I mean, it's sort
00:16:35.289 --> 00:16:38.710
of a hidden, under -celebrated area of filmmaking.
00:16:39.210 --> 00:16:42.210
And your own story of how you got into it was
00:16:42.210 --> 00:16:45.750
complete happenstance. That's amazing that you
00:16:45.750 --> 00:16:48.490
got to design your own work environment. I mean,
00:16:48.509 --> 00:16:52.370
that sounds like a dream. Where is that space
00:16:52.370 --> 00:16:55.509
now? And were you able, are there training? Is
00:16:55.509 --> 00:16:57.710
there training in place to hand these skills
00:16:57.710 --> 00:17:00.250
down to the next generation? How does that work?
00:17:00.730 --> 00:17:04.430
Oh, well, that's a good question, hon. That was
00:17:04.430 --> 00:17:08.569
a very unique situation. I find that I am graced
00:17:08.569 --> 00:17:11.630
with many unique situations. That was one of
00:17:11.630 --> 00:17:15.670
them. But I was struggling because my mom had
00:17:15.670 --> 00:17:19.470
gotten four -stage ovarian cancer, and I wanted
00:17:19.470 --> 00:17:24.430
to be with her in her final days. So I left that
00:17:24.430 --> 00:17:28.930
studio, and it eventually just, I guess, went
00:17:28.930 --> 00:17:33.000
under. The level of work that I was doing and
00:17:33.000 --> 00:17:36.440
trying to train people to be there like instantly
00:17:36.440 --> 00:17:40.900
was hard. And I found that it was easier for
00:17:40.900 --> 00:17:44.000
me to just do it myself than to try to delegate
00:17:44.000 --> 00:17:46.720
it and try to get everything in on time and at
00:17:46.720 --> 00:17:49.500
the standard that people are used to. And it
00:17:49.500 --> 00:17:53.759
just became that particular situation was difficult.
00:17:54.619 --> 00:17:57.980
So that stage doesn't exist anymore. Oh, what
00:17:57.980 --> 00:18:03.470
a shame. Yeah, it was so amazing, really. I don't
00:18:03.470 --> 00:18:06.730
think most Foley stages are designed by Foley
00:18:06.730 --> 00:18:10.650
artists, and they should be because they know
00:18:10.650 --> 00:18:14.029
what they need. It's a very specific kind of
00:18:14.029 --> 00:18:18.170
art form, and a normal just engineer to come
00:18:18.170 --> 00:18:22.390
in and dig up some pits is, you know, it's just
00:18:22.390 --> 00:18:24.930
not going to have the sensitivity that a Foley
00:18:24.930 --> 00:18:28.049
artist might have when it comes to. putting together
00:18:28.049 --> 00:18:31.769
their, you know, palette, so to speak. And I
00:18:31.769 --> 00:18:34.769
mean, are there training programs for Foley artists?
00:18:34.809 --> 00:18:38.329
Are there strands in film school? They are now.
00:18:38.410 --> 00:18:42.269
And I teach at USC. They have a Foley stage now
00:18:42.269 --> 00:18:46.250
there. And there's a few others. Sometimes I
00:18:46.250 --> 00:18:48.670
teach privately for anyone who's serious about
00:18:48.670 --> 00:18:53.250
it. But most people I know kind of just got in
00:18:53.250 --> 00:18:57.380
by happenstance. you know, a friend pulled them
00:18:57.380 --> 00:19:00.079
in or... Yeah, I mean, because it does sound
00:19:00.079 --> 00:19:02.859
like there needs to be an alchemy of, I mean,
00:19:02.880 --> 00:19:05.640
your experience as a dancer, you need to be a
00:19:05.640 --> 00:19:08.460
storyteller, you need to be physically fit, you
00:19:08.460 --> 00:19:11.400
need to be a very quick thinker, need to work
00:19:11.400 --> 00:19:13.720
well under pressure. That is a lot of different
00:19:13.720 --> 00:19:18.160
skills. I think having a background in theatre
00:19:18.160 --> 00:19:21.819
or music and dance will give anybody who wants
00:19:21.819 --> 00:19:24.829
to do this a heads up. You know, sometimes I
00:19:24.829 --> 00:19:27.849
do stand up and that's one of the hardest things
00:19:27.849 --> 00:19:31.569
I've ever done on stage. Stand up comedy. Yeah.
00:19:31.650 --> 00:19:34.630
So I think if you can do that, I just feel like
00:19:34.630 --> 00:19:38.430
I could do anything after that because it requires
00:19:38.430 --> 00:19:43.349
being very present, you know, and as a Foley
00:19:43.349 --> 00:19:47.049
artist, you have to have a pretty good sense
00:19:47.049 --> 00:19:52.240
of just concentration skills. I was thinking
00:19:52.240 --> 00:19:55.579
with this dawn of all the new technology and
00:19:55.579 --> 00:19:59.319
a lot of things that people do, I mean, even
00:19:59.319 --> 00:20:04.160
to the point of acting being sometimes replicated
00:20:04.160 --> 00:20:09.460
by an AI actor. Scary. But I was thinking that
00:20:09.460 --> 00:20:12.759
it would be impossible for Foley. I mean, Foley
00:20:12.759 --> 00:20:16.740
has to be human created. Yeah, that's the charm
00:20:16.740 --> 00:20:20.009
of it, is that it's... It's analog, it grounds
00:20:20.009 --> 00:20:25.789
the film in reality and suddenly we don't realize
00:20:25.789 --> 00:20:29.470
it but we're more involved when you feel and
00:20:29.470 --> 00:20:32.829
hear human sounds or sounds that are traditionally
00:20:32.829 --> 00:20:37.549
connected to what a human being would do. Even
00:20:37.549 --> 00:20:40.029
if it's just, I've seen some films, there's one
00:20:40.029 --> 00:20:43.109
film called The American with George Clooney
00:20:43.109 --> 00:20:45.710
where he's just walking down this little Italian
00:20:45.710 --> 00:20:48.980
street. And all you hear is this cloth movement.
00:20:49.420 --> 00:20:52.519
But sometimes that's more captivating. I get
00:20:52.519 --> 00:20:56.740
drawn in with something like that. And I was
00:20:56.740 --> 00:20:59.019
watching this little animated short the other
00:20:59.019 --> 00:21:03.039
night called Butterfly, where this man journeys
00:21:03.039 --> 00:21:06.180
through his life through water. Whether he's
00:21:06.180 --> 00:21:09.400
swimming competitively, and the backstroke is
00:21:09.400 --> 00:21:13.240
his stroke, and he meets the love of his life.
00:21:14.240 --> 00:21:17.140
It's really sweet, but the sound is what drew
00:21:17.140 --> 00:21:20.579
me into it initially. And then it all sort of
00:21:20.579 --> 00:21:23.339
came together. It all sort of blended into this
00:21:23.339 --> 00:21:27.660
beautiful, sweet story. Well, Ellen, as you know,
00:21:27.680 --> 00:21:30.460
on this podcast, we always ask our guests to
00:21:30.460 --> 00:21:33.359
choose a short film. So Butterfly is your film.
00:21:33.720 --> 00:21:37.619
I liked Butterfly. There's also another one called
00:21:37.619 --> 00:21:43.259
Dorothy's Friend. It's just a sweet story. Have
00:21:43.259 --> 00:21:45.849
you heard it? Yes, it definitely rings a bell.
00:21:45.930 --> 00:21:48.430
Yes. I think it's a book adaptation. Is that
00:21:48.430 --> 00:21:51.930
right? Yeah. Yeah. And is that also animated?
00:21:52.670 --> 00:21:55.289
It's not. That's live action. I wanted to try
00:21:55.289 --> 00:21:57.529
to catch up because I knew, you know, short films
00:21:57.529 --> 00:22:03.990
were not my genre normally. But I have everything
00:22:03.990 --> 00:22:06.289
on the Academy. So they were from this year.
00:22:06.390 --> 00:22:09.130
They weren't older films. Oh, great. OK, so.
00:22:09.790 --> 00:22:12.730
Butterfly and Dorothy's friends are your top
00:22:12.730 --> 00:22:16.809
tips to watch. Yeah, I think so. I mean, I fell
00:22:16.809 --> 00:22:19.349
in love with Butterfly because of the sound,
00:22:19.390 --> 00:22:23.230
first of all, and then the story and the writing
00:22:23.230 --> 00:22:27.470
was very good, very simple. And sometimes I think
00:22:27.470 --> 00:22:30.289
it's more powerful to just keep things really
00:22:30.289 --> 00:22:35.369
simple and use sound to drop. a person in sound
00:22:35.369 --> 00:22:38.750
like it's part of the script and Ellen another
00:22:38.750 --> 00:22:43.589
thing we we regularly ask ask our guests are
00:22:43.589 --> 00:22:47.910
looking looking at your career and having a little
00:22:47.910 --> 00:22:52.529
distance on it now can you name three sort of
00:22:52.529 --> 00:22:57.309
outside conditions and they could be in the industry
00:22:57.309 --> 00:23:04.519
or you know in society or in the arts that helped
00:23:04.519 --> 00:23:08.259
you to succeed? Yeah, well, you know, I had some
00:23:08.259 --> 00:23:10.380
of the best mentors. I worked with some of the
00:23:10.380 --> 00:23:13.779
most incredible sound designers, and I got to
00:23:13.779 --> 00:23:21.160
develop my ear by their requests. And they gave
00:23:21.160 --> 00:23:25.779
me the education, and like I said, my dance teachers,
00:23:26.119 --> 00:23:30.339
Peter Dupay, Joe Tremaine, you know, Jaime Rogers,
00:23:30.740 --> 00:23:34.650
they were like the best, the hot choreographers
00:23:34.650 --> 00:23:39.950
of the time. So all my dance training turned
00:23:39.950 --> 00:23:44.130
out to be a huge blessing as far as outside influences.
00:23:44.549 --> 00:23:47.289
And the people I got to work with, I was always
00:23:47.289 --> 00:23:49.609
with the creme de la creme, you know, Skywalker
00:23:49.609 --> 00:23:55.269
Sound. I've had such a blessed career. It just,
00:23:55.369 --> 00:23:58.950
I think, was what I was meant to do. So, you
00:23:58.950 --> 00:24:02.799
know, I just worked with great people. My partners,
00:24:02.859 --> 00:24:05.240
everything. It was just one of those things that
00:24:05.240 --> 00:24:08.740
I really didn't go looking for. You know, I wanted
00:24:08.740 --> 00:24:12.140
to be an actress or, you know, a rock star, whatever
00:24:12.140 --> 00:24:17.140
came first. I had much loftier goals than, oh,
00:24:17.220 --> 00:24:19.720
I'll just be this Foley artist for a while until
00:24:19.720 --> 00:24:22.880
my acting career takes off. But it didn't because
00:24:22.880 --> 00:24:25.619
I wasn't meant to do that. You found it really
00:24:25.619 --> 00:24:29.740
creatively satisfying. It was. And I got to dance
00:24:29.740 --> 00:24:32.000
and wear headphones and listen to music while
00:24:32.000 --> 00:24:35.619
I danced in rhythm to the whatever. And those
00:24:35.619 --> 00:24:38.640
were always one of my favorites. Do you find
00:24:38.640 --> 00:24:42.660
as someone whose hearing is so attuned, do you
00:24:42.660 --> 00:24:46.839
find yourself sensitive to sound in your general
00:24:46.839 --> 00:24:49.400
surroundings? Do you design your house in a particular
00:24:49.400 --> 00:24:53.359
way? Well, no, but I still pick up props even
00:24:53.359 --> 00:24:56.990
to this day. I find something that has an interesting
00:24:56.990 --> 00:25:00.549
sound. I still collect props and I don't even
00:25:00.549 --> 00:25:02.789
work but I can't help it because I love just
00:25:02.789 --> 00:25:05.990
picking up little gadgety things and I teach
00:25:05.990 --> 00:25:08.829
at Crossroads Elementary. It's a private school
00:25:08.829 --> 00:25:13.690
for kids and they keep me going and I help them
00:25:13.690 --> 00:25:18.609
discover how to find sounds by not using the
00:25:18.609 --> 00:25:23.720
literal prop. Feather duster could be the sound
00:25:23.720 --> 00:25:28.819
of a bird. So it's fun to watch them create that
00:25:28.819 --> 00:25:33.579
loop in their own minds as they figure out other
00:25:33.579 --> 00:25:37.819
ways to do things besides the obvious. Perhaps
00:25:37.819 --> 00:25:42.440
as just a last anecdote, could you tell us a
00:25:42.440 --> 00:25:47.359
little bit about being asked to create Foley
00:25:47.359 --> 00:25:52.599
for a film set in space? That's the hardest thing
00:25:52.599 --> 00:25:56.500
because there's no sound, technically. So when
00:25:56.500 --> 00:25:58.640
people say, what's the hardest sound you have
00:25:58.640 --> 00:26:01.480
to do? The sound that doesn't make sound. One
00:26:01.480 --> 00:26:04.299
time I had to do Tang floating across the capsule
00:26:04.299 --> 00:26:09.019
in Apollo 13. And I had the engineer just build
00:26:09.019 --> 00:26:12.400
me this huge air conditioning duct. I got inside
00:26:12.400 --> 00:26:16.599
and I just used the reflective sound. Because
00:26:16.599 --> 00:26:18.539
that was the only thing I could find that would
00:26:18.539 --> 00:26:21.940
blend and not sound like something, you know,
00:26:21.960 --> 00:26:27.980
just that wasn't a part of that storytelling.
00:26:29.059 --> 00:26:32.880
Does that make sense? I don't know. So your brief
00:26:32.880 --> 00:26:36.400
is to make the sound of Tang. Is that like a
00:26:36.400 --> 00:26:40.119
soda? It was a drink they used to give the astronauts.
00:26:40.400 --> 00:26:42.819
And squeeze it, it would come out of a little
00:26:42.819 --> 00:26:46.160
patch. And it would be like a glob, like a piece
00:26:46.160 --> 00:26:48.960
of jello. But technically, it shouldn't make
00:26:48.960 --> 00:26:51.579
sound, but I had to come up with something. One
00:26:51.579 --> 00:26:55.180
time in Schindler's List, they shot a girl point
00:26:55.180 --> 00:26:59.400
blank in her head. Now, I've never had that experience,
00:26:59.559 --> 00:27:02.039
but I have to come up with a realistic sound
00:27:02.039 --> 00:27:05.599
of what that might sound like. And so then you
00:27:05.599 --> 00:27:08.859
have a whole other problem of the imagery. Sometimes
00:27:08.859 --> 00:27:12.500
that would really get to me. personally just
00:27:12.500 --> 00:27:17.299
having to watch violent films over you know 12
00:27:17.299 --> 00:27:21.019
years a slave was very difficult this way they
00:27:21.019 --> 00:27:23.500
would they would just carry on with the scene
00:27:23.500 --> 00:27:27.220
go a little bit longer than it should and raping
00:27:27.220 --> 00:27:29.920
people and being raped and stabbing people and
00:27:29.920 --> 00:27:33.380
doing that every day it kind of gets to you know
00:27:33.380 --> 00:27:36.400
you have to Because I'm empathetic, so that's
00:27:36.400 --> 00:27:38.720
just where I go. It's not everybody's thing,
00:27:38.819 --> 00:27:42.640
but I was working so much and most everything
00:27:42.640 --> 00:27:46.519
had a very violent tone to it. Wow. Was that
00:27:46.519 --> 00:27:51.640
a consecutive number of years that there were
00:27:51.640 --> 00:27:54.759
a lot of heavy and dark themes in your work?
00:27:54.960 --> 00:27:58.539
I would just say that Wildfire, the company I
00:27:58.539 --> 00:28:03.059
worked for, most of their themes were violent.
00:28:03.559 --> 00:28:07.920
I had a plethora of different films and different
00:28:07.920 --> 00:28:11.779
styles. Fortunately, you can't choose. You have
00:28:11.779 --> 00:28:15.000
to do what's kind of... You really have to engage
00:28:15.000 --> 00:28:18.319
with what physically is happening to perform
00:28:18.319 --> 00:28:20.880
that. And your body doesn't know the difference.
00:28:21.200 --> 00:28:24.160
So it doesn't know that you're not really stabbing
00:28:24.160 --> 00:28:26.460
someone. You're still releasing cortisol, the
00:28:26.460 --> 00:28:30.640
stress hormone, that is just not good. You do
00:28:30.640 --> 00:28:34.430
that for days and... weeks and years on end and
00:28:34.430 --> 00:28:36.650
i think it you know it kind of takes its toll
00:28:36.650 --> 00:28:40.250
wow ellen so what was the your final film what
00:28:40.250 --> 00:28:43.670
was the last film you worked on oh it was for
00:28:43.670 --> 00:28:47.670
zoe kravitz and it was called blink twice and
00:28:47.670 --> 00:28:50.789
there was a hap a lighter theme to end on i hope
00:28:50.789 --> 00:28:55.549
no not at all but i have no control over that
00:28:55.549 --> 00:28:59.250
it's like you do what you know i was always happy
00:28:59.250 --> 00:29:02.269
to get the work but Sometimes it got a little
00:29:02.269 --> 00:29:05.730
bit, the burnout, the psychological burnout and
00:29:05.730 --> 00:29:09.150
physical. It's a very physical job, a job for
00:29:09.150 --> 00:29:12.450
younger people. Yeah. And okay. On that note,
00:29:12.490 --> 00:29:15.849
all of the good parts and the creativity and
00:29:15.849 --> 00:29:19.789
the performance and the satisfaction. Where should
00:29:19.789 --> 00:29:24.470
anyone listening to this who is young and thinking,
00:29:24.549 --> 00:29:27.829
oh my God, I would love to do that. Can you point
00:29:27.829 --> 00:29:31.970
them, even if it's just a website or an educational
00:29:31.970 --> 00:29:34.490
institution would be amazing, but where should
00:29:34.490 --> 00:29:38.269
they go or what should they do to make that connection?
00:29:38.849 --> 00:29:41.970
Well, they can go to my book when it's finished
00:29:41.970 --> 00:29:45.210
at the end of May. It's an instructional book.
00:29:45.799 --> 00:29:49.619
And it illustrates very clearly, you know, how
00:29:49.619 --> 00:29:51.960
to find shoes, how to walk in the shoes, how
00:29:51.960 --> 00:29:55.500
to, you know, do props. And just it really breaks
00:29:55.500 --> 00:29:58.220
it down. Oh, what is the name of your book, Helen?
00:29:58.599 --> 00:30:02.059
Oh, it's If These Shoes Could Talk. Amazing.
00:30:02.160 --> 00:30:05.960
And it's coming out at the end of May 2026. Yeah,
00:30:06.019 --> 00:30:08.900
you'll be able to get it on Amazon. Oh, that's
00:30:08.900 --> 00:30:11.759
great. We are definitely going to link to that
00:30:11.759 --> 00:30:15.480
in the comments for this podcast. Well, Ellen,
00:30:15.559 --> 00:30:17.700
it's been such a pleasure to talk to you. What
00:30:17.700 --> 00:30:21.339
an interesting life. Thank you. This was fun,
00:30:21.359 --> 00:30:23.559
like I said, and I love your questions. They
00:30:23.559 --> 00:30:27.000
were all good questions, so I could go on and
00:30:27.000 --> 00:30:30.680
on. It's fascinating. Well, thank you so much
00:30:30.680 --> 00:30:33.660
for being on All It Up and really cannot wait
00:30:33.660 --> 00:30:36.420
to order that book. Thank you so much. Thank
00:30:36.420 --> 00:30:41.029
you. Thank you so much to Ellen and do look out
00:30:41.029 --> 00:30:43.950
for her book, If These Shoes Could Talk, great
00:30:43.950 --> 00:30:47.289
title. Filled with Ellen's humor, warmth and
00:30:47.289 --> 00:30:49.710
thoughtfulness, we know it will be a great read.
00:30:50.410 --> 00:30:53.690
That's all for now. If this is your first time
00:30:53.690 --> 00:30:56.109
listening to All It Up, please check out our
00:30:56.109 --> 00:30:59.069
previous episodes. Each one has a wonderful guest
00:30:59.069 --> 00:31:01.930
who shares their stories and insights. And if
00:31:01.930 --> 00:31:04.230
you've already listened to them, then thank you
00:31:04.230 --> 00:31:07.609
so, so much. And please stay tuned for the next
00:31:07.609 --> 00:31:10.069
episode of All It Up.