Lessons From the Delta, Part 8: Why Ducks Are More Valuable Than Crops in the Delta

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The rice fields mimic those wetlands.
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They're, it's not the exact same,
the food sources aren't the same.
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But we can get what we
need to out of that.
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So we, we we're gonna use this, it's
what's there, 80% of the Mississippi
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Alluvial Valley is agriculture.
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That's why Ducks
Unlimited care about rice.
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We've been talking about the economics
of rice production in the Delta, but
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there are some factors that we haven't
considered, namely the overlap with water
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management, wildlife, and the ecosystem.
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In some cases, that intersection,
especially with duck hunting, expands
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the economic opportunities on farms.
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Welcome back to the
Purdue Commercial AgCast.
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I'm Chad Fiechter.
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This episode is part of our Lessons
from the Delta series, where Todd and
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I traveled through Arkansas talking
with farmers, researchers, and industry
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leaders about rice production systems.
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In this episode, we're in eastern
Arkansas, standing in the middle of a rice
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field—trying to understand how one of the
most water intensive crops in agriculture
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is also playing a role in conservation,
and why organizations like Ducks Unlimited
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are working directly with farmers.
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All right, Patrick, you were just
saying something about those birds.
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What, what's their name?
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So those are black neck stilts.
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They are actually breeding
now in the rice fields here.
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So when you're, we're driving around
here, we will see a lot of these, we'll
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see a lot of shore birds and stuff.
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These are just really cool.
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All right.
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So tell us a little bit about
yourself and where we're at.
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Alright, so my name's Patrick Dill.
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I'm the Rice Stewardship
Coordinator for Duck Unlimited.
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Uh, we are in Poinsett County just
outside of Harrisburg, on a, uh,
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rice farm, rice soybean rotation.
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We are at a USGS well.
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So one question that we get a lot is, is
why does Ducks Unlimited care about rice?
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We would do wetlands, flooded
timber, stuff like that.
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Waterfowl breed in Canada, North
Dakota, South Dakota, that's
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one of our primary target.
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It's a priority one zone for us.
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That's where we've spent a lot of
our early time working, but we also
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realized as an organization you gotta
send healthy birds back up to breed.
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You gotta send enough
birds back up to breed.
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And those birds will migrate
during the winter down to the
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Mississippi Alluvial Valley.
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Through the Gulf Coast and,
and parts of California.
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So those have became
priority one areas also.
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They're just non breeding grounds, so
we're right in the middle of a priority
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one non-breeding area for Ducks Unlimited.
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So what we're trying to do is
provide habitat, food, cover from
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the elements different, predatory
species, that we can send healthy
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birds, enough birds back up to Canada.
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So they can reproduce and keep population
numbers where they need to be here.
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So the reason why this historically
was great for waterfowl is that
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it was flooded timber, wet lands,
different kinds of moist soil.
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It's also the reason it's
great for rice farming.
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Yeah, very hydro soils.
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So we hold water great here.
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Perfect rice fields.
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So what made this good for waterfowl
is kind of what destroyed it.
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Where we converted it to rice farms.
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But also we can use those because
rice fields, like we can see the
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black neck stilts mimic wetland still.
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We still see a lot of the same species.
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If we go out there right now and we
walk through that water, we're gonna
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see all kinds of macro invertebrates.
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There's a rice field right
there, where the water's coming
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from one patty to the next.
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We're gonna catch enough snakes that
we're not gonna wanna walk into another
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rice field., There's, there's turtles.
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There's birds, there's fish.
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So you'll see a lot of these shore
birds, they'll go from like a ditch to
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a pond to, uh, they'll bounce around.
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And they'll get fish eggs on
their feet, and then when they
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come back into the rice fields,
they'll bring those eggs with them.
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So, the ecosystem that out
in this rice field is crazy.
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Wait, wait.
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You're saying that you could,
you could actually get fish
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to move into rice fields?
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Like when they harvest,
sometimes there's fish?
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Well, it's not gonna be like
huge fish, but like little
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minnows and stuff like that.
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So as, as the birds are traveling and
they're moving between the ditches and
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the ponds and the, the streams and stuff,
they're gonna get fish eggs on their feet.
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And when they go from that ditch
over into the rice field, some of
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those eggs are gonna come with them
and they're gonna get put in there.
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So yeah, if we go over there
right now and we kind of played
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around, we could see little things
swimming around in the, the water.
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So what do ducks eat?
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Ducks eat a little bit of everything.
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They feed on seeds from moist
oil units, native seeds.
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Uh, so what we would think of as
weeds probably here is what you
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would see in a moist oil unit.
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Like a smart weed.
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Yeah.
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Um, different times of grasses.
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They, and they probably prefer that.
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But the leftover rice seed, is
high in nutrient content also.
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So we, we can see a lot of that.
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So you don't have to worry about the ducks
coming in and like eating everything?
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No, no.
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We don't.
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Like they can coexist with
the rice plants not affected.
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Right?
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Right.
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So the timing of the migration with the
timing of when we plant and harvest rice.
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There's, there's not a lot of overlap.
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You'll see some early kill.
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But that's not an issue.
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Most of the ducks are gonna come
in winter, late fall, winter.
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Harvested and we're, we're just
got waste seed in the field.
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What we do though is we will put, we
have pipes with, called structure for
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water control, or boxes on the end
of it where you can put boards in it.
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They'll put the boards back in after
they've harvested and catch rain water.
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Some people will artificially flood
the rice fields for waterfowl.
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That just brings the water back up.
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So now they've got a
wet habitat to come to.
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They also have that waste seed.
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Also, you'll get macro invertebrates,
protein sources, that will come
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into the rice fields after harvest.
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Those macro invertebrates will
help deteriorate the rice residue.
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And then the ducks can use
that, especially when they're
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going back north in the summer.
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That protein's good for them.
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Okay.
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So what's your background?
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'Cause you obviously know a lot
about rice and you work for Ducks
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Unlimited as a conservationist, right?
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Yes.
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So I got a, I got my Bachelor's from
Arkansas State in Wildlife Management.
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Did a short little bit with Fish
and Wildlife Service, worked
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for Kansas Parks and Wildlife.
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And then I worked for, USDA NRCS,
Natural Resource Conservation
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Services, for seven years.
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I left there, worked for Arkansas
State and ARS or agricultural research
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services for another three years.
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And then we did research on
groundwater in the state.
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And actually this is one of
the projects that we did it on.
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So, so roughly about 15 years
of conservation work on farms.
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And then while I was at Arkansas
State, I got my master's.
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My master's was using satellites to
identify flooded rice fields in the winter
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to quantify how much habitat was there.
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so what exactly are we looking at?
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You, you said we're coming here 'cause
there's a lot to see in one spot.
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Again, what makes this really good
for rice, for waterfowl, is the hydro
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soils, uh, because we can hold water.
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The water's not seeping
through the ground.
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It's, it's, you put it on the field.
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It's in the field.
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What this is not great
for is aquifer recharge.
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So when you were coming from
Memphis, I don't know if you could
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tell, but we have a Crowleys Ridge.
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Anything East of Crowleys Ridge,
it was recharged relatively easily.
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You have the Mississippi
River right there.
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There's a lot of sandy spots.
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So you'll get infiltration.
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On the west side of the ridge,
you just don't see that as much.
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So we have groundwater decline areas
where you see your hotspots of rice.
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So a lot of the work that we do to
make sure that our rice fields is
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to help rice farmers be productive,
but also manage those resources
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so that there's still water.
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So that's why we, we met here.
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We have a USGS observation well here.
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I've got, so here's a map
of the priority areas.
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Wait, this is Ducks Unlimited priority.
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Yes.
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Yeah.
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So, so here's your priority one
breeding area, then down, here's
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your priority one, non breeding area.
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And then we've got those cones
of depression right here.
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So where the, the darkest red
is, is where we've used more
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water than we can, um, recharge.
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We are roughly right there.
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So for the interested listener,
there's a map with green to red.
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We are standing in a red area, correct?
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It's smack in one of the red areas.
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And that just means that
the water is, it's very low.
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How deep is it?
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So if we look at this, well, right
here, I think at the lowest it was
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this year, it was at 130 feet down.
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To water?
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To water.
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So from here down, it's 130
feet till you hit water.
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On another well prior to
coming across the ridge.
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When you're looking at the graph, it,
it kind of bebop between 25 and 30 feet.
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So, I mean like almost a hundred
foot difference of water.
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Geez.
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So pre rice, let's, let's say
1920 pre-major irrigated ag
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production here, what do you think
the water levels would've been?
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Uh, I think that would've been
similar to what you see over there.
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Okay.
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Um, I, I, if we're not pumped
the water out, I think the
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water would've been just as hot.
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The water would've been very similar.
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Uh Yep.
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So a hundred feet in a hundred years.
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To put that into perspective, rice
uses more water than any other
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major crop grown in this region.
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And in some areas, groundwater
levels are dropping fast.
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So the challenge becomes, can
a farmer keep growing rice
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under the same practices?
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We're doing a lot of work to mitigate
that through different ways we're either
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irrigating more efficiently, to where
we are trying to irrigate different ways
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so that we're not using as much water.
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Rice uses the most water out of any
of the crops that we grow in Arkansas.
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It uses 30 acre inches of water typically.
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You can do different things.
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The way you irrigate it, you can
row irrigate it kinda like what
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you would do with beans or corn.
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Use a little bit less water.
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It might affect the yield a little bit.
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You can do AWD where it's,
it's a similar set set up here.
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But we will pump it up and then we'll
let it kind of go down to a mud flat.
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That also helps with carbon.
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Different greenhouse gases.
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And, and the water's not
necessary for the rice to grow.
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It's more for weeds.
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So the weeds can't grow in the water.
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The rice can, so if we hold
water on it, then we don't have
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the same issue with the weeds.
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Which is the issue with row rice
or, or rice growing furrows.
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Um, if you don't have that
standing water on it, then
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you're gonna have weed problems.
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So then you're gonna have
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Pigweed.
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Yeah, you're gonna have,
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And if you get pigweed, we
don't have any traits in rice.
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Yep.
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Right.
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So soybeans.
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You're fine, but you're kind of
screwed if you, if you grow rice
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and you get a bunch of pigweed.
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The other thing, so I don't know
how many listeners might understand
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acre feet or acre inches of water.
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So like at any given time a flooded rice
field's gonna have optimally between
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roughly two and four inches of water.
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So when we say 30 acre inches of water.
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It means that throughout the course of
a single production season, you would
238
00:10:51,782 --> 00:10:55,142
put a total of 30 inches on that field.
239
00:10:55,252 --> 00:10:58,942
And so alternate wetting and drying
though, for example, it's like you
240
00:10:58,942 --> 00:11:01,192
flood, you drain, you flood, you drain.
241
00:11:01,582 --> 00:11:07,192
You might get as little as 14
acre inches put on a field so you
242
00:11:07,192 --> 00:11:10,492
can cut your water use in half,
you're gonna take some yield hits.
243
00:11:10,732 --> 00:11:12,562
Some varieties do better than others.
244
00:11:12,932 --> 00:11:14,192
You got weed issues.
245
00:11:14,622 --> 00:11:15,912
Fertilization is different.
246
00:11:15,912 --> 00:11:17,862
I mean, it basically, it changes
your entire management plan.
247
00:11:18,252 --> 00:11:21,372
But you can save water and
potentially save greenhouse gases.
248
00:11:21,612 --> 00:11:25,752
But do you, does that increase
like labor time or management time?
249
00:11:26,892 --> 00:11:27,192
Both.
250
00:11:27,192 --> 00:11:28,062
Or is it actually
251
00:11:28,122 --> 00:11:28,512
both?
252
00:11:28,902 --> 00:11:29,802
AWD does both.
253
00:11:29,832 --> 00:11:30,132
Both.
254
00:11:30,132 --> 00:11:31,092
And well, even furrow.
255
00:11:31,092 --> 00:11:34,242
Because furrow, like right now, if
you go out there, there's no beds.
256
00:11:34,592 --> 00:11:35,312
It's just flat.
257
00:11:35,312 --> 00:11:36,272
They planted the rice into it.
258
00:11:36,612 --> 00:11:39,642
But if you have like a, a soybean
rice rotation and you're planting
259
00:11:39,642 --> 00:11:43,922
your soybeans into beds, as long as
nothing crazy happens, it's not super
260
00:11:43,922 --> 00:11:46,962
wet when you're harvesting and those
beds are still intact, you might
261
00:11:46,962 --> 00:11:49,422
clean it in the fall or the spring.
262
00:11:49,802 --> 00:11:51,932
But you can use those same
beds to plant rice into.
263
00:11:52,242 --> 00:11:54,702
So you might just run through,
clean out the furrows really quick.
264
00:11:54,702 --> 00:11:59,862
But the time, the, the diesel,
to flatten everything and
265
00:11:59,862 --> 00:12:00,942
then turn it back into beds.
266
00:12:00,942 --> 00:12:02,982
And then flatten everything
that's, that's removed.
267
00:12:03,192 --> 00:12:07,992
The big trade off though that's,
is the levee building though, too.
268
00:12:08,292 --> 00:12:08,442
Yep.
269
00:12:08,622 --> 00:12:09,012
So,
270
00:12:12,602 --> 00:12:17,562
Just to get an idea of 30 acre
inches or two and a half acre feet.
271
00:12:17,972 --> 00:12:21,992
An acre foot, and this is a
rounded up number, is 326 gallons.
272
00:12:22,577 --> 00:12:25,487
And that's two and a half acre
feet of water for every acre.
273
00:12:25,487 --> 00:12:28,457
There's, that's just a
crazy amount of water.
274
00:12:28,787 --> 00:12:31,397
Times 1.5 million acres
of rice in Arkansas.
275
00:12:31,397 --> 00:12:32,057
Yeah, exactly.
276
00:12:32,927 --> 00:12:35,847
It is a lot of water that
goes into rice production.
277
00:12:35,877 --> 00:12:40,220
And, and so what you're gonna see
these, these red spots, that's where
278
00:12:40,220 --> 00:12:42,320
your rice production really hits.
279
00:12:42,380 --> 00:12:45,680
Um, you're gonna hear a
lot about rice capitals.
280
00:12:46,090 --> 00:12:51,085
Poinsett County is typically the
highest producing rice in the state.
281
00:12:51,085 --> 00:12:53,195
It flip flops because of rotations.
282
00:12:53,525 --> 00:12:56,585
So if it's a a rice heavy
year, they're the highest.
283
00:12:57,155 --> 00:12:59,525
If it's a bean heavy year, just
'cause the way the rotations
284
00:12:59,525 --> 00:13:00,995
fall, then they're second.
285
00:13:01,245 --> 00:13:04,395
And I've got the, the numbers here,
but you're gonna see a majority
286
00:13:04,545 --> 00:13:06,225
of rice is grown right here.
287
00:13:06,845 --> 00:13:08,195
And then right there.
288
00:13:08,285 --> 00:13:11,465
And then that's just there,
there, it's not a coincidence that
289
00:13:11,705 --> 00:13:14,815
you see that water decline area
where the, the highest rice is.
290
00:13:14,995 --> 00:13:20,245
So, okay, here's a question because, um,
there's spots where we, like in, in the
291
00:13:20,245 --> 00:13:22,315
Midwest where we just started irrigating.
292
00:13:22,705 --> 00:13:22,795
Yep.
293
00:13:22,915 --> 00:13:24,955
You know, it just kind of
became economically viable.
294
00:13:25,105 --> 00:13:28,045
But you're saying you've been growing
rice here, using this amount of water.
295
00:13:28,225 --> 00:13:29,905
Is more water being used?
296
00:13:30,055 --> 00:13:31,615
Is less water being used?
297
00:13:31,615 --> 00:13:31,975
Like where
298
00:13:32,125 --> 00:13:34,435
We're definitely becoming
more efficient with the water.
299
00:13:34,440 --> 00:13:34,640
Um.
300
00:13:35,310 --> 00:13:37,230
Like I said, there's, there's
different ways to irrigate.
301
00:13:37,510 --> 00:13:41,760
One easier way, and what you guys might
be used to is, like with Polypipe.
302
00:13:42,510 --> 00:13:45,660
It's called multi inlet rice
irrigation, where they'll pull polypipe
303
00:13:45,660 --> 00:13:47,760
from the riser all the way across.
304
00:13:47,820 --> 00:13:49,170
And they'll punch holes in each patty.
305
00:13:49,170 --> 00:13:52,500
So instead of pumping up water in the
top patty and letting it cascade down.
306
00:13:52,830 --> 00:13:55,410
They're pumping up each
patty at the same time.
307
00:13:55,470 --> 00:13:56,730
Uh, it makes it more efficient.
308
00:13:57,100 --> 00:13:58,900
The water gets across it a little quicker.
309
00:13:59,380 --> 00:14:03,520
So at that, the research station,
the Northeast Arkansas Rice Research,
310
00:14:03,520 --> 00:14:05,020
they're a very efficient water.
311
00:14:05,020 --> 00:14:07,060
What we observe, that's a
really efficient water system.
312
00:14:07,240 --> 00:14:07,420
Yep.
313
00:14:07,505 --> 00:14:10,380
And, and, and I, I, I think that's
what you're gonna start seeing.
314
00:14:10,410 --> 00:14:12,810
Farmers, you know, they're,
they're dependent on this.
315
00:14:12,870 --> 00:14:13,740
They, they realize it.
316
00:14:13,740 --> 00:14:15,660
And that's what we're gonna go
see this reservoir in a second.
317
00:14:15,690 --> 00:14:17,520
You're gonna see more of these
reservoirs, more service,
318
00:14:17,520 --> 00:14:19,260
water, um, and more efficiency.
319
00:14:19,260 --> 00:14:23,090
And, and I would expect that you would
start to see some sort of rebound in
320
00:14:23,090 --> 00:14:24,980
the aquifer just based off of that.
321
00:14:24,980 --> 00:14:28,490
It's, it's definitely slowed down
a lot, uh, over the last few years.
322
00:14:28,920 --> 00:14:32,700
But yeah, because of the farmers
realizing, you know, that this is
323
00:14:32,700 --> 00:14:35,360
happening, they've taken those steps
to make sure that they're gonna
324
00:14:35,360 --> 00:14:36,380
leave it better than they found it.
325
00:14:36,440 --> 00:14:38,870
That's, that's the goal
to most people that farm.
326
00:14:39,890 --> 00:14:41,750
They don't wanna give their
their kids something that's,
327
00:14:41,750 --> 00:14:43,100
you know, not gonna work.
328
00:14:43,100 --> 00:14:44,930
The rice fields mimic those wetlands.
329
00:14:44,960 --> 00:14:48,440
Uh, they're, it's not the exact same,
uh, the food sources aren't the same.
330
00:14:48,830 --> 00:14:51,050
Uh, but we can get what
we need to out of that.
331
00:14:51,050 --> 00:14:54,860
So we, we we're gonna use this, it's
what's there, 80% of the Mississippi
332
00:14:54,860 --> 00:14:56,450
Alluvial Valley is agriculture.
333
00:14:57,095 --> 00:14:58,145
You can't change that overnight.
334
00:14:58,145 --> 00:15:00,365
You don't wanna change that
overnight because the human
335
00:15:00,365 --> 00:15:01,955
population is skyrocketing.
336
00:15:01,955 --> 00:15:02,975
We gotta feed everybody.
337
00:15:03,395 --> 00:15:05,255
A good way to do that's
through rice production.
338
00:15:05,825 --> 00:15:07,445
So we're not gonna try to get rid of it.
339
00:15:07,475 --> 00:15:08,405
We gotta keep it.
340
00:15:08,555 --> 00:15:09,725
We just gotta work with each other.
341
00:15:10,865 --> 00:15:18,335
Another really important component of like
Delta land values, delta culture is duck
342
00:15:18,335 --> 00:15:20,080
hunting and like the recreational aspect.
343
00:15:20,340 --> 00:15:25,440
So like Aaron was talking about how
back in the 18 hundreds, you know,
344
00:15:25,440 --> 00:15:27,210
people moved in here and started to log.
345
00:15:27,240 --> 00:15:27,960
Clear the land.
346
00:15:27,960 --> 00:15:28,440
Drain it.
347
00:15:29,970 --> 00:15:35,520
Today there is immense value placed
on places that weren't logged and what
348
00:15:35,520 --> 00:15:37,050
they call a green tree reservoirs.
349
00:15:37,050 --> 00:15:42,630
So places with live trees that can be
flooded, and then hunting for ducks.
350
00:15:42,660 --> 00:15:47,880
So sometimes those are more
valuable than Class A crop land is
351
00:15:48,090 --> 00:15:48,330
No way.
352
00:15:48,480 --> 00:15:49,080
in the Delta.
353
00:15:49,080 --> 00:15:54,010
People make tens of thousands of dollars
putting up duck blinds and up cabin.
354
00:15:54,510 --> 00:15:57,030
Stuttgart is the duck
capital of the world.
355
00:15:57,750 --> 00:15:58,290
Really?
356
00:15:58,390 --> 00:15:59,255
I've never been ducking.
357
00:15:59,430 --> 00:16:06,215
So is there, there's gotta be just a crazy
amount of money in like guided duck hunts
358
00:16:06,245 --> 00:16:06,635
Yes.
359
00:16:06,635 --> 00:16:07,175
or hosting
360
00:16:07,355 --> 00:16:07,745
An insane
361
00:16:07,925 --> 00:16:08,585
groups?
362
00:16:08,675 --> 00:16:12,605
Lots of, of state i there's a lot
of people in state that duck hunt.
363
00:16:12,655 --> 00:16:16,960
But there's, especially the, in
prime of Delta, there's immense
364
00:16:17,795 --> 00:16:20,365
influx of out-of-state duck hunters.
365
00:16:20,565 --> 00:16:25,940
Some of the duck, like clubs
have own wildlife biologists.
366
00:16:25,975 --> 00:16:27,470
They have their own management.
367
00:16:27,830 --> 00:16:29,200
It's like very, it's
very professionalized.
368
00:16:30,080 --> 00:16:33,950
Because you're trying to like, you want
the mo the best environment for the ducks?
369
00:16:34,000 --> 00:16:34,290
That's right.
370
00:16:34,290 --> 00:16:34,650
Yes.
371
00:16:34,700 --> 00:16:38,750
They're like farming, they're farming,
they're farming rice and farming soybeans.
372
00:16:38,775 --> 00:16:42,445
Or whatever, but they're doing it in a
way that is optimal for duck hunting.
373
00:16:42,950 --> 00:16:44,830
It is economic decision in the farm.
374
00:16:45,660 --> 00:16:50,070
Well, I mean, we have a little bit of
that in pockets of the Midwest, where
375
00:16:50,070 --> 00:16:53,435
guys are trying to be very intentional
about deer population management.
376
00:16:54,420 --> 00:16:56,580
Um, that's what y'all gotta us up to do.
377
00:16:56,580 --> 00:16:58,140
We'll bring you down a duck hunt.
378
00:16:58,350 --> 00:17:00,720
And y'all, y'all bring us
up for a white tail hunt.
379
00:17:01,140 --> 00:17:03,150
Uh, we'll have to introduce
you to some other people.
380
00:17:03,185 --> 00:17:03,455
'Cause
381
00:17:03,725 --> 00:17:03,935
Yeah.
382
00:17:03,965 --> 00:17:04,865
Neither of us are hunters.
383
00:17:05,035 --> 00:17:08,450
Frankly, I love to whitetail
hunt, uh, so does Colson.
384
00:17:09,030 --> 00:17:11,540
But, if we're gonna do it
for the experience, come down
385
00:17:11,745 --> 00:17:12,740
and let's go duck hunting.
386
00:17:12,920 --> 00:17:13,400
We'll, uh,
387
00:17:13,580 --> 00:17:14,720
Yeah, it, it's a thing.
388
00:17:14,720 --> 00:17:19,000
It's like, if if you have kids, you
have a son, you're like, we'll take
389
00:17:19,090 --> 00:17:20,440
that's like, that's a rite of passage?
390
00:17:20,620 --> 00:17:21,340
Very much so.
391
00:17:21,735 --> 00:17:26,050
People are like at the level of,
of they have, a, a George Foreman
392
00:17:26,050 --> 00:17:28,070
or or a grill in the duck blind.
393
00:17:28,180 --> 00:17:31,655
making, you know, they got a Blackstone in
there and they're cooking bacon and eggs
394
00:17:31,655 --> 00:17:34,000
and biscuits while they're duck hunting.
395
00:17:35,050 --> 00:17:38,440
So this isn't just production
agriculture, it's a system that
396
00:17:38,440 --> 00:17:42,700
supports recreation, tourism, and a
deeply rooted culture in the Delta.
397
00:17:43,131 --> 00:17:45,861
What we saw here expands our
assumptions about agriculture.
398
00:17:46,041 --> 00:17:49,371
These farmers aren't just maximizing
yield, they're balancing production
399
00:17:49,371 --> 00:17:53,001
with water, use, wildlife habitat,
and long-term sustainability.
400
00:17:53,271 --> 00:17:57,351
And in situations where water is becoming
the limiting factor, that balance matters.
401
00:17:58,002 --> 00:18:00,492
What surprised you while you were there?
402
00:18:00,792 --> 00:18:08,482
I don't think anything really surprised
me other than like the nuance of
403
00:18:08,482 --> 00:18:12,442
farming, it became very apparent to me.
404
00:18:13,507 --> 00:18:16,207
You know, we were moving across
counties and they were still growing
405
00:18:16,207 --> 00:18:18,937
rice, but they were growing rice in
different ways across the county.
406
00:18:18,937 --> 00:18:21,577
Because I've raised corn and
soybeans, like I've haven't really
407
00:18:21,577 --> 00:18:25,447
thought about the unique differences
between raising one specific crop.
408
00:18:25,447 --> 00:18:27,907
So I've always thought about it
in sort of like systems thinking.
409
00:18:28,357 --> 00:18:29,497
And it was very different.
410
00:18:29,707 --> 00:18:32,347
And then the, the groups of
people who were working in
411
00:18:32,347 --> 00:18:33,907
those areas were different.
412
00:18:33,907 --> 00:18:37,127
So that, the west side of Crowley's
Ridge, there was like one group of
413
00:18:37,127 --> 00:18:40,442
farmers and then on the other side
there was a different group of farmers.
414
00:18:40,472 --> 00:18:40,652
Yeah.
415
00:18:40,652 --> 00:18:42,692
And, and the, and the production
practice would be different.
416
00:18:42,692 --> 00:18:44,462
The commodities they could
grow would be different.
417
00:18:44,892 --> 00:18:47,112
Their access to water is very different.
418
00:18:47,467 --> 00:18:52,627
Then there's also the whole harvesting it
and selling it the different uses of rice.
419
00:18:52,967 --> 00:18:55,847
There's not like just like
number two yellow rice.
420
00:18:56,277 --> 00:18:59,937
There's the quality grain
after it's harvested dictates
421
00:18:59,937 --> 00:19:00,807
what can be done with it.
422
00:19:00,807 --> 00:19:03,927
Some of it ends up just like
as animal food, pet food.
423
00:19:04,197 --> 00:19:05,937
Some of it we eat here.
424
00:19:06,237 --> 00:19:08,847
We were, was just with some of my
nieces and nephews and I was like,
425
00:19:08,847 --> 00:19:11,697
do you guys know what the difference
between brown rice and white rice is?
426
00:19:11,942 --> 00:19:12,292
Yeah.
427
00:19:12,682 --> 00:19:13,422
It's the same rice.
428
00:19:13,497 --> 00:19:14,397
It's the same rice.
429
00:19:14,447 --> 00:19:17,657
Well, one of the things I think
we both agreed was it was fun to
430
00:19:17,657 --> 00:19:20,837
think about a crop that's, that
has grown for human consumption.
431
00:19:20,917 --> 00:19:24,157
At least in my world, I won't speak for
you, but a lot of times I'm thinking about
432
00:19:24,157 --> 00:19:27,937
commodity production that's going into
animal feed, or it's going into fuel,
433
00:19:27,937 --> 00:19:28,867
or it's going, you know, like there's.
434
00:19:28,902 --> 00:19:29,712
Industrial use.
435
00:19:29,712 --> 00:19:30,342
Yeah, exactly.
436
00:19:30,452 --> 00:19:33,642
This is gonna be consumed by
people, right outta the field.
437
00:19:33,642 --> 00:19:34,092
Could be.
438
00:19:34,392 --> 00:19:37,752
I think one of the other things was the
idea of like, it being a staple food.
439
00:19:37,752 --> 00:19:40,302
So like, it's not really
a staple food in my diet.
440
00:19:40,482 --> 00:19:44,112
It seemed to more of a staple food
to people who live in the Delta.
441
00:19:44,862 --> 00:19:49,122
Which, which is funny to me because,
there's this weird love- hate
442
00:19:49,122 --> 00:19:51,402
relationship with rice among rice farmers.
443
00:19:51,402 --> 00:19:52,572
So they eat at a bunch.
444
00:19:52,602 --> 00:19:54,762
And apparently, like if you go to
an extension event, like you've
445
00:19:54,762 --> 00:19:56,232
gotta have rice on the table, right?
446
00:19:56,232 --> 00:20:00,492
It'd be like going to the National Pork
producers and just having turkey burgers.
447
00:20:00,492 --> 00:20:04,807
They eat rice probably as much
as Brian Martin, our guest that
448
00:20:04,807 --> 00:20:06,997
was a, the hog farmer eats pork.
449
00:20:07,027 --> 00:20:07,387
No, no.
450
00:20:07,387 --> 00:20:10,057
100%. You are thinking
about ways to eat rice.
451
00:20:10,087 --> 00:20:12,247
But they have this
harmless view of nature.
452
00:20:12,577 --> 00:20:16,117
But there's so many things in nature
there that like want to do harm
453
00:20:16,117 --> 00:20:17,467
to you or could do harm to you.
454
00:20:17,827 --> 00:20:21,657
There's the snakes, there's mosquitoes,
which we came strategically to avoid
455
00:20:22,137 --> 00:20:24,687
the depth of, uh, mosquito season.
456
00:20:25,317 --> 00:20:26,847
Uh, the ticks.
457
00:20:27,357 --> 00:20:30,087
People were like, oh, don't
even look at the grass.
458
00:20:30,177 --> 00:20:31,287
You're gonna get a tick on you.
459
00:20:31,497 --> 00:20:35,457
And we, we met with, uh, when we met with
our friend from, uh, uh, ducks Unlimited.
460
00:20:35,457 --> 00:20:40,047
He, he called our host Aaron
And said, Hey, just wanna
461
00:20:40,047 --> 00:20:41,607
let you know I found a tick.
462
00:20:41,907 --> 00:20:43,557
Make sure you guys are checking for ticks.
463
00:20:43,557 --> 00:20:46,767
Like he followed up later
about his tick incident.
464
00:20:46,977 --> 00:20:47,277
Well, and
465
00:20:47,337 --> 00:20:49,782
think that said he saw what,
46 snakes in a day or something
466
00:20:49,782 --> 00:20:52,257
like No, I think that there's a part
where it was like, there, there's a
467
00:20:52,257 --> 00:20:54,807
pragmatism towards navigating this.
468
00:20:54,837 --> 00:20:59,127
The, the things that are gonna kill you,
that I like as a person who's grown up
469
00:20:59,127 --> 00:21:02,367
in Indiana, we don't really have sort
of like off limits things like you,
470
00:21:02,367 --> 00:21:03,567
you sure you can walk through there?
471
00:21:03,567 --> 00:21:04,497
Don't, don't worry about that.
472
00:21:04,497 --> 00:21:05,547
You can do that in there.
473
00:21:05,547 --> 00:21:06,927
It was like, don't go under the trees.
474
00:21:07,257 --> 00:21:08,547
Stay out of the tall grass.
475
00:21:08,637 --> 00:21:08,817
Right.
476
00:21:08,817 --> 00:21:11,847
It was there, we, we found rules
fairly quickly where it's like, Hey,
477
00:21:11,847 --> 00:21:13,597
do this, do And it wasn't sort of like.
478
00:21:15,327 --> 00:21:17,427
People with a, over an
overabundance of caution.
479
00:21:17,427 --> 00:21:20,967
It was like hardened people saying
like, stay outta the grass, don't trees.
480
00:21:21,027 --> 00:21:21,537
You know what I mean?
481
00:21:22,017 --> 00:21:24,477
because, because sometimes people
give you advice and you're think
482
00:21:24,477 --> 00:21:25,227
I'm go stand
483
00:21:25,332 --> 00:21:28,242
these, these, these were not like nervous.
484
00:21:29,217 --> 00:21:30,387
Uh, type people.
485
00:21:30,657 --> 00:21:32,427
I, I don't we met anyone
486
00:21:32,427 --> 00:21:37,077
that it wasn't like they were like the
stereotypical, like overprotective mom,
487
00:21:37,077 --> 00:21:40,467
you know, where it's not, it's not like
they're like making their kids wear,
488
00:21:40,497 --> 00:21:43,317
uh, uh, air tags in their clothes.
489
00:21:43,347 --> 00:21:44,427
'Cause they wanna know where they are.
490
00:21:44,457 --> 00:21:47,007
Like, it's like a, like I generally
don't worry about anything about it.
491
00:21:47,007 --> 00:21:48,057
Worry about these ticks.
492
00:21:48,342 --> 00:21:48,702
Yeah.
493
00:21:48,702 --> 00:21:52,662
Well, and they also in ticks,
mosquitoes, snakes, like, it
494
00:21:52,662 --> 00:21:54,462
was like, do this, do this.
495
00:21:54,552 --> 00:21:57,342
And I was like, well, maybe my fear
of snakes, like maybe this is what
496
00:21:57,342 --> 00:22:00,672
I need, like, and I need to just go
and learn how to deal with snakes.
497
00:22:00,962 --> 00:22:01,172
Yeah.
498
00:22:01,172 --> 00:22:05,872
The other one is they also
recreate a lot where they work.
499
00:22:06,022 --> 00:22:09,262
So they have all these big,
uh, ponds, retention ponds
500
00:22:09,262 --> 00:22:10,042
is what we would call them.
501
00:22:10,792 --> 00:22:15,262
A hundred acres or more of water
that they're saving to be able to
502
00:22:15,382 --> 00:22:16,732
flood the fields when they need it.
503
00:22:17,092 --> 00:22:19,422
But those are also full
of crazy amount of fish.
504
00:22:19,422 --> 00:22:21,282
Every time we went to a po
we went to ponds particularly
505
00:22:21,282 --> 00:22:22,152
in the morning or at night.
506
00:22:22,572 --> 00:22:24,672
Fish were just like all over the place.
507
00:22:24,882 --> 00:22:27,972
So they're duck hunting, they're
fishing, like they're recreating,
508
00:22:28,167 --> 00:22:29,457
They're hunting gators.
509
00:22:29,522 --> 00:22:30,512
They're hunting gators.
510
00:22:30,512 --> 00:22:30,632
Yeah.
511
00:22:30,632 --> 00:22:30,872
Yeah.
512
00:22:30,872 --> 00:22:34,382
So like the, yeah, it just, all
this stuff, um, so like this
513
00:22:34,382 --> 00:22:38,792
working, recreate like you just,
like, it had a real sense of place.
514
00:22:39,812 --> 00:22:43,442
And the part of it too is again, this idea
of them being sort of the dairy of crops.
515
00:22:43,742 --> 00:22:45,782
Like you've gotta be around that farm.
516
00:22:45,782 --> 00:22:46,742
Like talking to the farmers.
517
00:22:47,162 --> 00:22:47,382
There's like.
518
00:22:47,987 --> 00:22:51,257
Kind of like a morning
check and an evening check.
519
00:22:52,007 --> 00:22:55,847
And that's not even like the,
like work, like, that's not like
520
00:22:55,847 --> 00:22:57,317
you necessarily doing anything.
521
00:22:57,557 --> 00:22:59,897
You've gotta at least like
check in on everything.
522
00:22:59,952 --> 00:23:04,177
If, if if our listener is as
clueless about rice production
523
00:23:04,177 --> 00:23:05,617
as I was before we went.
524
00:23:06,307 --> 00:23:08,707
to be fair, neither of us have
any experience with irrigation.
525
00:23:08,707 --> 00:23:08,887
Yeah.
526
00:23:08,887 --> 00:23:09,067
Yeah.
527
00:23:09,067 --> 00:23:09,442
But so
528
00:23:09,667 --> 00:23:10,147
probably other
529
00:23:10,147 --> 00:23:10,807
places too.
530
00:23:10,807 --> 00:23:10,977
This is my misunderstanding.
531
00:23:11,827 --> 00:23:12,517
Call in.
532
00:23:12,657 --> 00:23:13,057
Write us.
533
00:23:13,057 --> 00:23:22,477
If I'm saying this wrong, um, but you, you
plant the rice and then you flood it, um,
534
00:23:22,492 --> 00:23:23,422
For weed control.
535
00:23:23,422 --> 00:23:26,322
In part for weed control, in part for
weed control, um, the rice does really
536
00:23:26,322 --> 00:23:29,917
well, but there's like an optimal
amount of water to have in there.
537
00:23:30,017 --> 00:23:34,952
And if there's a lot of,
uh, rain that comes through.
538
00:23:35,012 --> 00:23:36,182
You can have too much water.
539
00:23:36,242 --> 00:23:36,297
Mm-hmm.
540
00:23:37,082 --> 00:23:42,872
If your levy breaks or, um, there's
something wrong with your, well,
541
00:23:42,902 --> 00:23:44,327
like, you can have too little water.
542
00:23:44,855 --> 00:23:45,002
Yep.
543
00:23:45,032 --> 00:23:48,962
So what they're always doing is like,
fiddling with the water to get it
544
00:23:48,962 --> 00:23:50,882
to that optimal level that you want.
545
00:23:51,362 --> 00:23:54,842
Against nature, trying to make it
more or less than you want it to be.
546
00:23:54,847 --> 00:23:54,907
Correct.
547
00:23:56,207 --> 00:24:01,937
Um, and so these, the water
chasing is that act of like
548
00:24:02,627 --> 00:24:04,367
aiming for optimal all the time.
549
00:24:04,637 --> 00:24:05,717
And these farms are huge.
550
00:24:05,717 --> 00:24:05,777
Yeah.
551
00:24:05,807 --> 00:24:07,157
They're thousands of acres.
552
00:24:07,637 --> 00:24:11,417
And so it's not like, it's not like
a, a backyard garden where it's
553
00:24:11,417 --> 00:24:14,297
like, I'm gonna go check and make
sure there's no deer out here and
554
00:24:14,297 --> 00:24:16,247
I can, that'll take me two minutes.
555
00:24:16,307 --> 00:24:19,277
You're talking, you're, you're
moving around in a pickup truck.
556
00:24:19,367 --> 00:24:23,297
You're, you're walking on levees,
you are literally checking
557
00:24:23,747 --> 00:24:25,627
physically, like what's the depth?
558
00:24:26,183 --> 00:24:26,267
Yes.
559
00:24:26,297 --> 00:24:27,677
Do I need to adjust something?
560
00:24:27,677 --> 00:24:28,817
Is the pump still working?
561
00:24:28,817 --> 00:24:33,257
And, and, and, and then we think about
technology in agriculture, like there's
562
00:24:33,287 --> 00:24:36,767
all sorts of, this used to just be
like an art, like some guy would kind
563
00:24:36,767 --> 00:24:38,117
of feel it out or sense it, right?
564
00:24:38,117 --> 00:24:41,987
But now they're, they're checking
flow meters, they're checking depth,
565
00:24:41,987 --> 00:24:43,607
all of that, like electronically.
566
00:24:43,757 --> 00:24:47,897
Some of that they're able to do,
you know, remotely to get some idea,
567
00:24:47,897 --> 00:24:49,307
but then you're gonna have to go.
568
00:24:49,697 --> 00:24:54,017
At least every once in a while, a
couple times a day, it sounds like
569
00:24:54,017 --> 00:24:59,447
in most places, to verify that
data with your own physical senses.
570
00:24:59,582 --> 00:25:02,882
No, and I think that was the thing
is that, that I think Colson said it.
571
00:25:03,152 --> 00:25:08,297
wonder how many sort of technological
tools have been developed for rice
572
00:25:08,297 --> 00:25:12,017
farming because specifically around
water, but it still struck me that
573
00:25:12,017 --> 00:25:16,067
almost even the most technologically
advanced they were doing these rounds.
574
00:25:16,067 --> 00:25:19,487
The wa the person in charge of
water or persons was literally
575
00:25:19,487 --> 00:25:23,117
doing physical rounding, checking
all these fields, making sure that
576
00:25:23,207 --> 00:25:26,537
even though they would have sort of
on their phone, what's the levels?
577
00:25:26,537 --> 00:25:27,317
Are we working?
578
00:25:27,317 --> 00:25:28,247
Is the pump working?
579
00:25:28,787 --> 00:25:31,877
So it was like, it wasn't something
that you can like tech your way out of
580
00:25:31,877 --> 00:25:32,027
Yeah.
581
00:25:32,027 --> 00:25:35,327
Well, and, and the, and the
pumps sometimes are electricity.
582
00:25:35,417 --> 00:25:37,307
Some places they're diesel, right.
583
00:25:37,307 --> 00:25:40,517
So there's like a, a mechanical
thing you gotta think about.
584
00:25:40,517 --> 00:25:40,697
Right?
585
00:25:40,697 --> 00:25:43,727
So like if you, we, when we were
even at the experiment station, which
586
00:25:43,727 --> 00:25:47,507
should be as close to like a perfectly
controlled environment, they were talking
587
00:25:47,537 --> 00:25:50,927
about like issues they were having
with the power company, with like.
588
00:25:51,407 --> 00:25:53,657
You know, is this well
working or is this Yeah.
589
00:25:53,687 --> 00:25:55,337
And like we gotta get somebody
to come out and check it.
590
00:25:55,397 --> 00:25:55,697
Right.
591
00:25:56,087 --> 00:25:58,402
Um, 'cause some of that
you can't do yourself.
592
00:25:59,402 --> 00:26:01,352
So I think what I'm coming back from this.
593
00:26:01,372 --> 00:26:04,912
Specific experience is maybe not
specifically tied to rice, it's
594
00:26:04,912 --> 00:26:06,202
around sort of the general concept.
595
00:26:06,202 --> 00:26:10,012
I'm like, oh, that was so fun to
like take a deep dive and like pull
596
00:26:10,012 --> 00:26:13,312
out all of my preconceived notions
and just experience something.
597
00:26:13,672 --> 00:26:14,992
Uh, like I love that.
598
00:26:15,202 --> 00:26:17,837
So I've spent a lot of my
career in the corn belt.
599
00:26:18,717 --> 00:26:22,047
And thinking about corn belt
economics and corn belt stuff.
600
00:26:22,077 --> 00:26:24,537
I mean that Center of Commercial
Agriculture, that's bulk of what we do.
601
00:26:24,537 --> 00:26:24,717
Right?
602
00:26:24,717 --> 00:26:24,777
Yeah.
603
00:26:24,832 --> 00:26:24,862
what we do.
604
00:26:25,557 --> 00:26:29,547
But I was like, oh, I need to get
into other kinds of agriculture.
605
00:26:29,877 --> 00:26:29,937
Yeah.
606
00:26:29,937 --> 00:26:33,477
Like we, we like on the way home, we were
discussing like, oh, it'd be cool to go
607
00:26:33,477 --> 00:26:35,157
to California, see some permanent crops.
608
00:26:35,157 --> 00:26:36,177
It'd be cool to go to.
609
00:26:36,537 --> 00:26:40,827
Uh, out to Eastern Washington and see
like the dry land agriculture up there
610
00:26:40,827 --> 00:26:44,037
or like, um, I'm like, oh, we should
go back to, I should go to, I've been
611
00:26:44,037 --> 00:26:47,007
to Montana to go to the national parks,
but I should go like just visit farms.
612
00:26:47,097 --> 00:26:47,187
Yeah.
613
00:26:47,517 --> 00:26:49,617
Um, that I was like, I
wanna do more of this.
614
00:26:50,217 --> 00:26:51,987
That's a big part of it.
615
00:26:52,017 --> 00:26:56,637
The other one, and I'm maybe should not
say this on the podcast, but I'm going to.
616
00:26:58,077 --> 00:27:00,417
I learned a lot from the extension folks.
617
00:27:01,482 --> 00:27:03,282
And sort of what would be
kind of our colleagues.
618
00:27:03,282 --> 00:27:07,692
And we did talk shop a little bit
about, about funding and grantsmanship
619
00:27:07,692 --> 00:27:11,142
and hiring talent and all the
things we think about as academics.
620
00:27:11,412 --> 00:27:15,522
But what I really loved was like
when we hung out with the farmer
621
00:27:15,522 --> 00:27:18,822
and talked about his experience, um.
622
00:27:19,072 --> 00:27:20,812
Or like you mentioned, the
Duck's Unlimited, right?
623
00:27:20,812 --> 00:27:20,872
Yeah.
624
00:27:20,902 --> 00:27:23,482
Or, or even the, the folks that
were running the distillery Yeah.
625
00:27:23,512 --> 00:27:26,632
About, you know, their farm and
their production of, we went
626
00:27:26,632 --> 00:27:27,742
on a tour of the distillery.
627
00:27:27,742 --> 00:27:29,422
They told us their whole
distilling process.
628
00:27:29,692 --> 00:27:29,782
Right.
629
00:27:30,172 --> 00:27:33,082
That I was like, I need to spend
more time around practitioners
630
00:27:33,412 --> 00:27:35,092
that are actually doing this stuff.
631
00:27:35,932 --> 00:27:39,082
And then go talk to the academics
or think about the academics.
632
00:27:39,082 --> 00:27:44,122
But I would like, I was like, man, like
it's, I wish I was doing more of that.
633
00:27:44,602 --> 00:27:48,117
'cause I talked to, you know,
other university type folks all
634
00:27:48,117 --> 00:27:49,977
the time right here at Purdue.
635
00:27:49,977 --> 00:27:53,127
Right When we travel around, I'll go
to conferences and it's people like us.
636
00:27:53,127 --> 00:27:53,187
Yeah.
637
00:27:53,217 --> 00:27:55,047
From other departments, other colleges.
638
00:27:55,467 --> 00:27:57,987
And I was like, man, I gotta
just like spend more time.
639
00:27:57,987 --> 00:28:01,092
And even like spending time with Colson.
640
00:28:02,157 --> 00:28:05,427
And so he works in farmland investment
and was talking to us about like sort
641
00:28:05,427 --> 00:28:09,747
of how they acquire properties, how
they go through like, like that part of
642
00:28:09,747 --> 00:28:13,407
his job as a kind of a practitioner is
somebody who studies land prices, right?
643
00:28:13,407 --> 00:28:18,177
So, uh, I should probably mention I'm
the Schrader Chair in farmland economics.
644
00:28:18,177 --> 00:28:19,737
I study land prices, right?
645
00:28:19,887 --> 00:28:19,977
Yeah.
646
00:28:19,977 --> 00:28:24,057
And I, I'm working right now on our
extension report about, um, which our
647
00:28:24,057 --> 00:28:27,537
listeners will have already been able to
read about Indiana land prices, right?
648
00:28:27,597 --> 00:28:27,687
Mm-hmm.
649
00:28:27,987 --> 00:28:32,567
Um, but like spending more time around
the practitioners working in that space.
650
00:28:32,927 --> 00:28:35,267
Like I just wanna do
more of it going forward.
651
00:28:35,317 --> 00:28:39,397
If you think your place, oh my
gosh, would be as beneficial to us
652
00:28:39,397 --> 00:28:41,887
as this one was, get ahold of us.
653
00:28:42,947 --> 00:28:46,157
And I think that's probably the biggest
takeaway from this entire series.
654
00:28:46,247 --> 00:28:49,877
When I step outside of what I know,
for me, the corn belt outside of
655
00:28:49,877 --> 00:28:53,237
systems I'm familiar with, I started
to see how many different ways
656
00:28:53,237 --> 00:28:54,917
there are to make agriculture work.
657
00:28:55,397 --> 00:28:55,967
In the Delta.
658
00:28:55,967 --> 00:28:58,217
It's water, it's rice, it's wildlife.
659
00:28:58,217 --> 00:29:00,977
It's a completely different set
of constraints and a completely
660
00:29:00,977 --> 00:29:02,147
different set of solutions.
661
00:29:02,897 --> 00:29:04,187
The underlying theme is the same.
662
00:29:04,187 --> 00:29:05,297
Farmers are adapting.
663
00:29:05,477 --> 00:29:08,477
They're managing risk, they're
making decisions with the resources
664
00:29:08,477 --> 00:29:11,297
they have, and they're building
systems that are designed to last.
665
00:29:11,597 --> 00:29:14,747
And for us, this trip was a reminder
that if you really want to understand
666
00:29:14,747 --> 00:29:16,637
agriculture, you gotta go see it.
667
00:29:16,817 --> 00:29:20,177
You gotta talk to the people doing it,
and you gotta be willing to challenge some
668
00:29:20,177 --> 00:29:21,767
of your own assumptions along the way.
669
00:29:22,832 --> 00:29:24,902
We had a lot of fun putting
this series together and we
670
00:29:24,902 --> 00:29:26,072
hope you found it valuable.
671
00:29:26,312 --> 00:29:30,032
If you did, make sure you're subscribed
to the Purdue Commercial Ag Cast.
672
00:29:30,062 --> 00:29:32,042
We've got more conversations
like this coming.
673
00:29:32,312 --> 00:29:35,072
Along with our regular Ag
Economy Barometer updates.
674
00:29:35,372 --> 00:29:37,532
Thanks for joining us for
the lessons from the Delta.
675
00:29:37,532 --> 00:29:38,522
We'll see you next time.
676
00:29:38,522 --> 00:29:38,582
I.