00:00:00
Speaker 1: I see that Fidal adams testimony before the Midlana Commission has wrapped up for the day. I don't know if you will be called back any time, but over the course of the last two and a half days, Fidal Adams repeatedly invoking the late top cop General Andre Lincoln at the Midlanga Commission, and he said Andre Lincoln was a friend and had advised him on several serious matters, this drawing sharp criticism with Andre Lincoln's friends' former comrades, like Professor Brian Williams, arguing that Adams is attributing conduct to someone who is no longer alive to give the own version, Professor Brian Williams, a lifelong friend, comrade, mentor to the late General Andre Lincoln, publicly rejecting attempts to implicate Andrew Lincoln in conduct attributed to Fidal Adams. Brian, really appreciate your time. You describe yourself in this open letter that you've published overnight as deeply concerned and dismayed by Fido Adam's tessemony. What was it, specifically about the way he invoked Andrew Lincoln that compel you to to issue the statement?
00:01:13
Speaker 2: I thank you very much for inviting me to share some sources and ideas with you and your listeners. Firstly, this is a fundamental issue of concern. The first is that you'd you cannot, from a cultural point of view, even respecting those as pasted, to use their name and their replications as a means to bolster an argument that you wish to present. Personally, you know when you do that, a person whom you claim to have said ABCD or E he is not able to be there to defend him or herself, And especially when you're doing it in a highly controversial context where you, as a politician, where you've made a particular decision to follow a particular route and line of reasoning now in order to support your controversial position, to invoke the name of a person worth pass. So there's a fundamental unfairness attached to that. That's the first point. The second point, I know Andrew for more than fifty years. We grew up together in Kensington. We were kids together, teenagers together. I introduced him into liberation politics, which here confirms in his book and publicly referred to me as his mentor. I've been having a journey with him literally throughout his life throughout his adult life. I know how he reasons, I know the training that he's been through, and he's a quiet, reflective person. He will not introduce controversy and unethical conduct or reasoning into any advice that he gives under himself has been victim of syndicates and people who are powerful opposing him on the basis of his strike for a corrupt free police and fighting for a better country in a better society. So Andrew would not be the one then that the very thing that he has been fighting against and been the victim of, give guidance for others to follow unethical, unhopeful, and questionable roots. So that's a fundamental principle that I know that Andre would never follow. So when I saw this person, you know, making these allegations and pulling Andre into his controversies into his testimony, I was deeply concerned about it, and I spoke to Andre's MoMA was also deeply concerned, and so with his family.
00:03:47
Speaker 1: I have seen a video statement released by by Andre's wife, Sharen, who confirmed it that Fao Adams and Andre Lincoln were friends. She said that he was a regular guest at the home. She she does not know she says in a video statement what they spoke about. So this issue there isn't really whether they knew each other. It's rather whether video Adams is now attributing particular advice or motives, maybe even an ethical, maybe even criminal conduct or to Andrea Lincoln, which we simply cannot independently verify. Andrea Lincoln, of course not here to defend himself.
00:04:26
Speaker 2: But that's exactly the point, that's precisely the point. And so so how do we then know? So, as you correctly say, objectively, in terms of factual set of circumstances, we will not know because Andrew is not here. But there are all the indicators that can guide us to draw reasonable conclusions as to what would the position of General Lincoln be given these set of circumstances. So, given the kind of personality is the way he reasons is reflective nature, is slow to make big decisions in a sense, very conservative. They follows the procedures to the letter of the law, and he doesn't rush into big decisions. And so he will never never advise someone to act unethically. You will never advise someone to act unlawfully. You will never advise someone to harm the rights of others because himself, as are indicated, had been harmed by powerful forces within this country.
00:05:27
Speaker 1: Well, why do you think Vital Adams would would would would invoke the name well Andre Lincoln at a commission that has been set up specifically to look at criminality and the influence of organized crime in our politics.
00:05:44
Speaker 2: Well, it's it's a I believe that this particular commission, the Madlanga Commission, they are well positioned to establish credibility findings. They know all of the fact that all of the documents, they're able to understand the different voices of different people who come through, and in my own views that they're going to make a credibility finding that's going to be damaging to Findial Adams. They're not going to find that he is credible. They're not going to find that his tactimity can be believed, and it's unlikely that he will be able to emerge on this as a as a thankly figure, as a figure that can be trusted. That's not my view based on what I've seen. So the ones who will best positioned to make the final decisions as to what is credible in this set of circumstances to be them at longer commission because that all the information.
00:06:39
Speaker 1: Brian, You're not just academic, you're you. You've made a career in violence, interruption, you do mediation, you do workshops and projects on social concisions. A lot of Adams's testimony is that he was there to represent the colored child. In his words, where do you think File Adams and his part is narrow race based nationalism. How much is it playing into into Fidio adams theater of maybe even using the Madlanga Commission as as a stage as a platform, as a campaigning prop ahead of local government elections.
00:07:21
Speaker 2: Well, I mean, I don't want to be sticulative about this, but you're correct in the sense that his constituency would be people who are the the unhappy people. Was in a particular social grouping called the so called colored people, and there's a there are people who feel that nothing has changed in their lives, that democracy did not bring any any changes to this particular community. I'm sure many other communities feel exactly the same. But I don't want to draw a conclusion that he is using Madlanga Commission as a political form to mobilize for a particular constituency. So that is not I don't believe it is because.
00:08:06
Speaker 1: It comes with substantive risk to himself, because you could face some possibly very serious repercussions based on not only possible perjury charges, but but also about the abuse of of of the system. Law enforcement Professor Brian Williams really appreciate your time.
Speaker 1: I see that Fidal adams testimony before the Midlana Commission has wrapped up for the day. I don't know if you will be called back any time, but over the course of the last two and a half days, Fidal Adams repeatedly invoking the late top cop General Andre Lincoln at the Midlanga Commission, and he said Andre Lincoln was a friend and had advised him on several serious matters, this drawing sharp criticism with Andre Lincoln's friends' former comrades, like Professor Brian Williams, arguing that Adams is attributing conduct to someone who is no longer alive to give the own version, Professor Brian Williams, a lifelong friend, comrade, mentor to the late General Andre Lincoln, publicly rejecting attempts to implicate Andrew Lincoln in conduct attributed to Fidal Adams. Brian, really appreciate your time. You describe yourself in this open letter that you've published overnight as deeply concerned and dismayed by Fido Adam's tessemony. What was it, specifically about the way he invoked Andrew Lincoln that compel you to to issue the statement?
00:01:13
Speaker 2: I thank you very much for inviting me to share some sources and ideas with you and your listeners. Firstly, this is a fundamental issue of concern. The first is that you'd you cannot, from a cultural point of view, even respecting those as pasted, to use their name and their replications as a means to bolster an argument that you wish to present. Personally, you know when you do that, a person whom you claim to have said ABCD or E he is not able to be there to defend him or herself, And especially when you're doing it in a highly controversial context where you, as a politician, where you've made a particular decision to follow a particular route and line of reasoning now in order to support your controversial position, to invoke the name of a person worth pass. So there's a fundamental unfairness attached to that. That's the first point. The second point, I know Andrew for more than fifty years. We grew up together in Kensington. We were kids together, teenagers together. I introduced him into liberation politics, which here confirms in his book and publicly referred to me as his mentor. I've been having a journey with him literally throughout his life throughout his adult life. I know how he reasons, I know the training that he's been through, and he's a quiet, reflective person. He will not introduce controversy and unethical conduct or reasoning into any advice that he gives under himself has been victim of syndicates and people who are powerful opposing him on the basis of his strike for a corrupt free police and fighting for a better country in a better society. So Andrew would not be the one then that the very thing that he has been fighting against and been the victim of, give guidance for others to follow unethical, unhopeful, and questionable roots. So that's a fundamental principle that I know that Andre would never follow. So when I saw this person, you know, making these allegations and pulling Andre into his controversies into his testimony, I was deeply concerned about it, and I spoke to Andre's MoMA was also deeply concerned, and so with his family.
00:03:47
Speaker 1: I have seen a video statement released by by Andre's wife, Sharen, who confirmed it that Fao Adams and Andre Lincoln were friends. She said that he was a regular guest at the home. She she does not know she says in a video statement what they spoke about. So this issue there isn't really whether they knew each other. It's rather whether video Adams is now attributing particular advice or motives, maybe even an ethical, maybe even criminal conduct or to Andrea Lincoln, which we simply cannot independently verify. Andrea Lincoln, of course not here to defend himself.
00:04:26
Speaker 2: But that's exactly the point, that's precisely the point. And so so how do we then know? So, as you correctly say, objectively, in terms of factual set of circumstances, we will not know because Andrew is not here. But there are all the indicators that can guide us to draw reasonable conclusions as to what would the position of General Lincoln be given these set of circumstances. So, given the kind of personality is the way he reasons is reflective nature, is slow to make big decisions in a sense, very conservative. They follows the procedures to the letter of the law, and he doesn't rush into big decisions. And so he will never never advise someone to act unethically. You will never advise someone to act unlawfully. You will never advise someone to harm the rights of others because himself, as are indicated, had been harmed by powerful forces within this country.
00:05:27
Speaker 1: Well, why do you think Vital Adams would would would would invoke the name well Andre Lincoln at a commission that has been set up specifically to look at criminality and the influence of organized crime in our politics.
00:05:44
Speaker 2: Well, it's it's a I believe that this particular commission, the Madlanga Commission, they are well positioned to establish credibility findings. They know all of the fact that all of the documents, they're able to understand the different voices of different people who come through, and in my own views that they're going to make a credibility finding that's going to be damaging to Findial Adams. They're not going to find that he is credible. They're not going to find that his tactimity can be believed, and it's unlikely that he will be able to emerge on this as a as a thankly figure, as a figure that can be trusted. That's not my view based on what I've seen. So the ones who will best positioned to make the final decisions as to what is credible in this set of circumstances to be them at longer commission because that all the information.
00:06:39
Speaker 1: Brian, You're not just academic, you're you. You've made a career in violence, interruption, you do mediation, you do workshops and projects on social concisions. A lot of Adams's testimony is that he was there to represent the colored child. In his words, where do you think File Adams and his part is narrow race based nationalism. How much is it playing into into Fidio adams theater of maybe even using the Madlanga Commission as as a stage as a platform, as a campaigning prop ahead of local government elections.
00:07:21
Speaker 2: Well, I mean, I don't want to be sticulative about this, but you're correct in the sense that his constituency would be people who are the the unhappy people. Was in a particular social grouping called the so called colored people, and there's a there are people who feel that nothing has changed in their lives, that democracy did not bring any any changes to this particular community. I'm sure many other communities feel exactly the same. But I don't want to draw a conclusion that he is using Madlanga Commission as a political form to mobilize for a particular constituency. So that is not I don't believe it is because.
00:08:06
Speaker 1: It comes with substantive risk to himself, because you could face some possibly very serious repercussions based on not only possible perjury charges, but but also about the abuse of of of the system. Law enforcement Professor Brian Williams really appreciate your time.
