Simple Tips to Transform Your Church's Sound — Andrew Camagay

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A lot of time and investment goes into making
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a really good sounding audio system. But how
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does that actually take place? How does one go
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through that process of setting up an audio system
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to make it sound good? On this episode, I sit
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down with Andrew. He is from Bangkok and just
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like me, he's really passionate about audio.
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He's been solving some really challenging problems
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that churches have had and I figured that I'd
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get him on to talk about it. Also stick around
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for the end where we discuss about some tips
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on how you can optimize your audio system. So
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if that interests you, stick around. That's on
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today's episode of The Adventist Music. Welcome
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to the Adventist Music Podcast. I'm your host,
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Khan Elmers. This is the podcast where we share
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Adventist musician stories in under 30 minutes.
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Well, today we have a very special guest all
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the way from Thailand, Andrew. Kind of a musician,
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but also into audio engineering. It's good to
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have you on the podcast, Andrew. Thank you for
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having me. Yeah, no worries. You have a background
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in music, production, but you currently study
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aerospace engineering. Yeah, I do. Yeah. Before
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we dive into the sound ministry side of things,
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I'd love it if you could explain to us a bit
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about like how you chose to do aerospace engineering.
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Could you explain why you chose that route and
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the projects that you're currently involved in?
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Sure. So this is actually an interesting story.
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I was debating between going into music or going
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full engineering. and in the end I chose to do
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engineering because I never really wanted music
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to become work per se. I wanted to always have
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music as more of a hobby of a distressor so that
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whenever I have like a ton of work or a lot of
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things to do that are stressing me out then I
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can always turn to my violin, always turn to
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music production and it's worked out that I turn
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to music whenever I'm stressed and The more interesting
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thing is when I was deciding what university
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to go to, I applied to several and the only door
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that opened for me in that their interview wasn't
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on Sabbath or they didn't have requirements that
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I couldn't meet because my exam grades came really
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late because of exam retakes and stuff, I wasn't
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able to meet the application deadline and so
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I had to take the GED. And the only university
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that accepted GED and didn't have their entrance
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interview or exam on a Sabbath was this aerospace
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faculty. And so that was the only door that opened
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for me. And so that's where I am. God was like,
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that's where you're going. It sounded like you
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didn't have many options. Yeah, because the way
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it works is... I took A -level, so you have twice
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a year where you do exams, you sit exams, and
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then the rest of the year you just have to study
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for them. And so I had to do a few retakes and
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so that delayed my applications to university.
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And then when it came time for the results to
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come in, they came around, they were going to
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come around like two weeks after the application
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deadline for the round that was for Me. And so
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I just had to scramble to do the GED in a week
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and I passed and God made it possible for me
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to go. Congratulations. That's really, really
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cool. So watch this space soon to be aerospace
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technician. But yeah, in today's episode, we're
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going to explore your story about music and that
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side of your world as well. So let's just dive
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right into it, shall we? Yeah, sure. You mentioned
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that you play the violin, you do that to kind
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of wind down, to relax. Take us back to the time
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when you started learning how to play the violin.
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I started at four. I was the one who actually
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asked my parents for a violin. And they got me
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the violin and I was really, really excited to
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play it. What I was most happy with was getting
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to play in church, getting to share music. Although
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a lot of people do play the violin, I find that
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I love putting more of my classical music background
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into it. And so what I really enjoyed was discovering
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ways to tie in my classical background after
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getting to the point that I was able to. It was
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always, from the start, it was always really
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exciting to see how people reacted to music.
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It's like people connect with you differently
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when you play music and when you... versus if
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you just talk to them, if you play an instrument
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and they play an instrument, it's an immediate
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connection point. Or some people might really
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enjoy a certain style of music and being able
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to play that kind of music for them really just
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connects you instantly. But you mentioned that
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your mom gave you a violin at four years old.
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Let's go back to that moment where she gave you
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that violin. That's a pretty young age. And do
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you remember anything about that time? If I remember
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correctly, it was my birthday gift because I
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had been really asking for a violin. And so at
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the birthday party or something, I remember there
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was a gathering of relatives. They handed me
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the violin and I was just so happy to play it.
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After many years of playing, I started at four
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and then around 2017, 2018, I was just like really
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tired of playing it because I just played, practiced
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week after week every single Sunday you go to
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lesson and then during the week get lazy to practice
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the same story for I'm sure a lot of musicians
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and that was a really hard period. My parents
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had to move me to another teacher and I started
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with Suzuki, but that other teacher that I went
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to, he had a different method and he just gave
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me a really, really, really hard piece just so
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that I wouldn't stop playing. His job was to
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keep me from stopping playing and the piece was
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just beyond my ability that it made me strive
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to get that piece. It was Bach concerto in A
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minor, I think. And so for one whole year, I
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just played that piece over and over and over.
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And it was just beyond the level of my ability
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to the point that I just wanted to get to it.
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That kept me playing. And then besides that,
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in the church where I went to, we had a new pastor's
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family come in. The wife, Ms. Shim Hye -hyun,
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she was a classical pianist. classical concert
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pianist. And it was just so different. She arranged
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music in a very classical way. They really reminded
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me of like the romantic and classical eras of
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music. And that was something that was so different
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because at that time I'd never really been able
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to play sacred music that was written for violin
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or was written for violin and piano. or violin
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duets that was more classical than anything because
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a lot of the time they take these songs that
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are more for voice and then they just do really
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simple like two -part harmonies or stuff like
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that whereas her arrangements and the artists
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who she took inspiration from took their classical
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background and really put the musicality and
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the technicality into the music and that makes
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it really, really enjoyable to play. During that
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time, I also discovered Korean CCM. I discovered
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through her Soma Trio and Jennifer Jeon on YouTube.
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And if you haven't listened to these artists,
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you definitely should. They're arrangements of
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very well -known hymns like Amazing Grace, Blessed
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Assurance, Many others like The Lord's Prayer
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are so, so musical. They're just so different.
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The way they move through the ideas, the way
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they modulate to keys. Sometimes they have like
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three to four modulations on just one song. And
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while it's very, very technical, their music
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is so beautiful at the same time. And so it merges
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these two things that we as musicians really
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love. And there's something for everyone, whether
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you're a musician and you can appreciate the
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musicality, or you're someone who just loves
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listening to music and hearing the same hymns,
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there's something for you in their arrangements.
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And that's something that I really enjoy about
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their music. And so that's how I kept playing.
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I see. So you are currently studying at University
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doing aerospace, uh, engineering, um, tell us,
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when did you begin going there? Um, I've been,
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I'm, I've just finished my second year. Yeah.
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So I just, I started two years ago. So when did
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you, um, you said that you were involved in church
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ministry doing sound engineering. Um, tell us
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about like some of the work that you're currently
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doing there. Yeah, so I was born and raised in
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Thailand, and now I serve at the Bangkok, Seventh
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-day Adventist Bangkok Korean Church. And I serve
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as the head of AVL, audio, video, and live streaming,
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and as well as front of house. So I started two
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years ago, or three now, with transitioning from
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my studio recording side to seeing the need for
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audio engineering in our church because we're,
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yeah, front of house and live streaming in our
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church. Can we talk about a bit more about your
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background though? And you mentioned that you
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used to do stuff in audio music production. Did
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that set you up? I mean, it sounded like you
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were doing that before you got into this whole
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church audio space as well. Yeah, so during the
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pandemic, we came off that 2017, 2018, 2019 period
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where I had gotten back into music with the people
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from my church, especially my pianist friend
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and her daughter. We would play duets all the
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time. And then came the pandemic and we were
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all at home. And something that came out of that
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was Amazing Facts of Youth. which was started
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by Uncle Tony Scarpino at Granite Bay Seventh
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-day Adventist Church. At first, for the youth
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of his church, we really, really wanted to share
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our music. And so during lockdown, I just decided
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to start learning to record with whatever I had.
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At the time, I just had a webcam mic that was
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surprisingly decent enough to use up to a certain
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point. and so I started recording with that and
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then eventually we got a shotgun mic to record
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videos. We weren't really happy with the sound
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of that so we went and got a Zoom H2n and then
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finally some actual small diaphragm condensers.
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Little by little I learned through YouTube and
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with whatever I could find that was like free
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because we didn't have that much of a budget
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for recording and so I found a free DAW which
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I still use today. a traction waveform because
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of the way the workflow is, the routing is very
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flexible. I started learning and it was very
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very difficult at first because I'm sure many
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people have heard violin recordings on YouTube
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done by people and it just sounds very very harsh,
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like the mid -range, high mid -range of a violin
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is very harsh. So that was what really pushed
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me to learn proper audio engineering. which was
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to mix my violin so that I too would enjoy listening
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to my music recorded. Because everyone was very
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surprised by me recording and everyone was saying
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that they really loved my recordings. But I myself
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wasn't really happy with how my instrument sounded,
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how my voice sounded in recordings. And so I
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wanted to make the most of the gift that God
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gave me. the talent for playing the violin and
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I wanted to share how I myself hear my violin
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under my ear and in the room which is very very
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full and very like resonant sounding rather than
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harsh and so I started learning all the techniques
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EQ dynamic EQ compression and all that I eventually
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got to a point where I did enjoy music production
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and recording myself and actually listening to
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my recordings. It just so happened that that
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was the time that I saw the need to help churches
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out, help my church out with sound. It took quite
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a few years. Let's talk about that a bit more.
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What was going on in your life at the time? I
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actually only transitioned from studio sound
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to live sound. very recently, as I said three
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years ago, which was when I started doing it
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for my church. And then, little by little, I
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started getting opportunities at other churches,
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like whenever there's a school event or another
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church had an event. And I knew a bit about sound,
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and so I started going to other churches to help.
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And so, yeah, I started helping churches out
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and Here and there, I've been getting opportunities
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to work with other churches besides my own and
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help them with their sound. So it sounds like
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it kind of grew organically through your relationships
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at church that you were forming there at the
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time. Yeah. I definitely want to come back to
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some of the things that you did. there at those
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churches and see if you can give us some tips
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to help people to optimize their church audio.
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Because for those of you guys out there who have
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a church audio system that maybe you have no
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idea how to run, we definitely want to help you
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guys out and answer some of your questions you
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have. So let's come back to that. Before we do
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that though, I'd like to talk to you a bit about
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church audio. some of the project. Let's talk
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about like a real project that you have done
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and some of the problems that you faced and how
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you solved them. One project that I've worked
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on was when our church choir was invited to sing
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for the North Asian Division ASI conference that
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was held here in Bangkok last year, I think.
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And so I wanted to multitrack record our choir
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to post to our YouTube channel. And so the week
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before the conference, I got the information
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that it would be held at this church only two
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weeks prior. So the next week after that, I decided
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to go to the church to like, scout out the location.
00:16:24.289 --> 00:16:27.889
When I got there, it was something. They have
00:16:27.889 --> 00:16:33.429
an X32 Compact and I booted up the mixer and
00:16:33.710 --> 00:16:39.610
It was on the old firmware where you can't remote
00:16:39.610 --> 00:16:44.490
into the console at all on a tablet or a computer.
00:16:45.009 --> 00:16:48.429
So they said that they wanted to update the mixer
00:16:48.429 --> 00:16:51.029
but they didn't know how to. They asked me to
00:16:51.029 --> 00:16:53.750
try. I asked around if anyone had a thumb drive
00:16:53.750 --> 00:16:56.850
so that I could update the mixer. But it was
00:16:56.850 --> 00:16:58.490
Sabbath afternoon and everyone had gone home
00:16:58.490 --> 00:17:02.340
and nobody had a thumb drive. and so I had to
00:17:02.340 --> 00:17:06.160
dig around in my bag for an SD card and I had
00:17:06.160 --> 00:17:08.839
an SD card reader on me so I formatted that SD
00:17:08.839 --> 00:17:13.400
card, downloaded the firmware and by the time
00:17:13.400 --> 00:17:16.220
I had done that it took quite a while because
00:17:16.220 --> 00:17:20.519
we had to go look for the storage to do it and
00:17:20.519 --> 00:17:23.480
then when I finally got it updated I plugged
00:17:23.480 --> 00:17:26.049
it into the router And it turned out that the
00:17:26.049 --> 00:17:28.950
router's ethernet was on a completely different
00:17:28.950 --> 00:17:32.329
subnet from the Wi -Fi. And so we still weren't
00:17:32.329 --> 00:17:34.970
able to mix on the tablet. I decided to just
00:17:34.970 --> 00:17:37.849
work with a mixer. So the next thing I did was
00:17:37.849 --> 00:17:41.329
go to the front of the church to their stage
00:17:41.329 --> 00:17:44.730
box and look at what they were doing. And on
00:17:44.730 --> 00:17:48.609
the stage box, it was all plugged in, what looked
00:17:48.609 --> 00:17:51.529
to be correctly. And then I went to the back,
00:17:51.589 --> 00:17:53.869
I checked the channels and the mics were all
00:17:53.869 --> 00:17:58.000
on random channels like some vocal mics were
00:17:58.000 --> 00:18:00.200
on channels five and six piano was on channel
00:18:00.200 --> 00:18:06.039
two and they had some wireless mics and so I
00:18:06.039 --> 00:18:10.759
tried to organize stuff I tried to get things
00:18:10.759 --> 00:18:13.920
to a point where I could work with it and I did
00:18:13.920 --> 00:18:17.960
and then I discovered that their wireless mics
00:18:17.960 --> 00:18:21.599
were sharing a receiver so they had two wireless
00:18:21.599 --> 00:18:26.559
mics that were on one receiver. I was stunned,
00:18:27.440 --> 00:18:31.759
like, I don't know who integrated this system,
00:18:32.460 --> 00:18:36.819
but they did not do it correctly. I talked to
00:18:36.819 --> 00:18:39.720
the media team and they said that their integrator
00:18:39.720 --> 00:18:43.500
had done the install for them, they had set it
00:18:43.500 --> 00:18:47.299
up to a certain point, and then they had given
00:18:47.299 --> 00:18:51.099
them a two -hour, only two -hour session. on
00:18:51.099 --> 00:18:53.559
how to use the X32 and they'd left them in the
00:18:53.559 --> 00:18:56.920
dust and that's it. So all this media team knew
00:18:56.920 --> 00:18:59.880
how to do was push faders. They didn't know how
00:18:59.880 --> 00:19:04.519
to set gain. They didn't know how to use the
00:19:04.519 --> 00:19:08.160
EQ. The compressor wasn't even on on the mixer.
00:19:08.980 --> 00:19:15.019
The PA wasn't tuned and so they were afraid to
00:19:15.019 --> 00:19:17.079
set the gain higher because the PA wasn't tuned
00:19:17.079 --> 00:19:21.130
so they would get feedback. And so that first
00:19:21.130 --> 00:19:25.329
Sabbath ended up being getting that mixer to
00:19:25.329 --> 00:19:29.009
a point where I could use it the next week and
00:19:29.009 --> 00:19:33.569
along the way teaching them little bits here
00:19:33.569 --> 00:19:37.309
and there where I could how to use this mixer
00:19:37.309 --> 00:19:40.009
and like speaking into the mic and showing them
00:19:40.009 --> 00:19:43.349
what the EQ did. But this was already very late
00:19:43.349 --> 00:19:46.309
on a Sabbath afternoon and everyone was tired
00:19:46.309 --> 00:19:49.450
and wanted to go home. I can see. I can see the
00:19:49.450 --> 00:19:52.109
challenges you could have faced at that point.
00:19:52.369 --> 00:19:54.529
Tell us about the team that you're working with
00:19:54.529 --> 00:19:59.569
there. Yeah, they had no training whatsoever
00:19:59.569 --> 00:20:02.650
on how to use this mixer, as I said. They only
00:20:02.650 --> 00:20:07.609
had a two -hour, like, briefer, more like, than
00:20:07.609 --> 00:20:12.750
training on the X32 by this integrator. And so...
00:20:12.750 --> 00:20:14.269
I'm guessing that's the person who sold it to
00:20:14.269 --> 00:20:18.250
them? Yeah, the... I don't even know if it's
00:20:18.250 --> 00:20:20.210
supposed to be called an integrator, maybe just
00:20:20.210 --> 00:20:24.569
a supplier. So the supplier just dropped it in,
00:20:25.309 --> 00:20:28.470
connected it to their system, routed the audio
00:20:28.470 --> 00:20:30.829
to the different speakers and then left them
00:20:30.829 --> 00:20:33.349
to figure it out on their own mostly. And so
00:20:33.349 --> 00:20:35.509
they didn't really know how to use this mixer.
00:20:36.109 --> 00:20:38.329
Yeah, I mean, this is a digital mixer. I'm just
00:20:38.329 --> 00:20:42.309
looking at the specs for it now. It's pretty
00:20:42.309 --> 00:20:46.390
much got everything on it. When you have a digital
00:20:46.390 --> 00:20:52.150
console like this one, it's got a large learning
00:20:52.150 --> 00:20:56.190
curve, which is why it's good to start off with
00:20:56.190 --> 00:20:58.569
an analog console when you're beginning too,
00:20:58.569 --> 00:21:02.609
isn't it? For someone who's supplying gear like
00:21:02.609 --> 00:21:05.609
that, maybe he should have considered that, right?
00:21:05.609 --> 00:21:08.490
Don't you think? Yeah, or even giving them a
00:21:08.490 --> 00:21:14.309
simpler digital console like the... the old Q
00:21:14.309 --> 00:21:19.069
series from Alan and Heath or their CQ18T which
00:21:19.069 --> 00:21:23.789
are really a direct upgrade from an analog system
00:21:23.789 --> 00:21:26.549
where the the routing is patched one -to -one
00:21:26.549 --> 00:21:29.549
like mic one comes in on channel one right away
00:21:29.549 --> 00:21:31.690
and you push the main fader and it goes right
00:21:31.690 --> 00:21:36.029
to the speakers right away and so they were not
00:21:36.029 --> 00:21:39.710
set up for success And so that first session,
00:21:39.710 --> 00:21:42.789
I just had to get the mixer to a point where
00:21:42.789 --> 00:21:45.809
we could use it the next Sabbath. And then the
00:21:45.809 --> 00:21:48.769
next Sabbath, I came back. Instead of attending
00:21:48.769 --> 00:21:51.130
my church, I went to their church. And from Sabbath
00:21:51.130 --> 00:21:53.849
school in the morning, I worked on the mixer
00:21:53.849 --> 00:21:57.650
to prepare it for our choir. And it just so happened
00:21:57.650 --> 00:22:00.789
that that week, they had another choir come in
00:22:00.789 --> 00:22:02.970
during Divine Service and have a full concert.
00:22:03.650 --> 00:22:06.789
And so I was able to build a mix for that choir
00:22:06.789 --> 00:22:09.829
and use it for our choir in the afternoon. And
00:22:09.829 --> 00:22:12.869
all the while I was showing them how to set gain,
00:22:12.990 --> 00:22:18.069
how to set the EQ, and even just labeling each
00:22:18.069 --> 00:22:20.789
channel properly on the scribble strips, setting
00:22:20.789 --> 00:22:22.789
the gain correctly and putting a high -pass filter.
00:22:23.150 --> 00:22:25.890
And they were already commenting that, wow, this
00:22:25.890 --> 00:22:28.430
sounds so much better. Because it was getting
00:22:28.430 --> 00:22:31.019
to the correct loudness for the room. whereas
00:22:31.019 --> 00:22:32.720
they were running it really, really quietly and
00:22:32.720 --> 00:22:36.940
trying to push the faders up. And another problem
00:22:36.940 --> 00:22:41.339
that we faced was that their cables that the
00:22:41.339 --> 00:22:43.660
suppliers chose were not really high quality.
00:22:44.220 --> 00:22:47.779
And so we were getting radio interference where
00:22:47.779 --> 00:22:50.900
we were having like a station next door come
00:22:50.900 --> 00:22:57.900
in and we could hear the news over the PA. Yeah,
00:22:57.920 --> 00:23:00.940
and everyone in the room was asking, like, what's
00:23:00.940 --> 00:23:04.680
that noise? Who's speaking? And we just had to
00:23:04.680 --> 00:23:07.859
say, oh, this is maybe a radio station next door,
00:23:08.140 --> 00:23:11.339
because we had set the gain correctly. And so
00:23:11.339 --> 00:23:14.059
it was picking up the interference from next
00:23:14.059 --> 00:23:17.559
door. So they weren't shielded cables? No, they
00:23:17.559 --> 00:23:20.220
were just probably like the cheapest XLRs that
00:23:20.220 --> 00:23:25.160
you could get. Oh man, that is shocking. Yeah,
00:23:25.160 --> 00:23:30.690
so... In the afternoon, what I said, the two
00:23:30.690 --> 00:23:34.369
wireless mics coming in on one receiver, they
00:23:34.369 --> 00:23:36.809
didn't know that, and so they couldn't tell me
00:23:36.809 --> 00:23:41.549
that. They had three sets of wireless mics. They
00:23:41.549 --> 00:23:44.089
had four wireless mics. Two were plugged into
00:23:44.089 --> 00:23:47.609
the booth directly. They had a budget Shure system.
00:23:48.049 --> 00:23:51.569
The other one was a JBL wireless receiver at
00:23:51.569 --> 00:23:53.650
the front. It was plugged into the stage box.
00:23:54.279 --> 00:24:00.680
And I only discovered when I was mixing the tracks
00:24:00.680 --> 00:24:05.240
after the fact that two mics were coming in on
00:24:05.240 --> 00:24:09.559
that one receiver. And nobody knew. How do you
00:24:09.559 --> 00:24:11.559
not know that? That's kind of an obvious thing
00:24:11.559 --> 00:24:14.539
when you're looking at the mixer, isn't it? No,
00:24:14.559 --> 00:24:18.700
because they patched that thing twice. They patched
00:24:18.700 --> 00:24:22.210
it into two channels, assuming that... it could
00:24:22.210 --> 00:24:24.650
split into two, because two mics are coming on
00:24:24.650 --> 00:24:28.369
the same mono input. And so they assumed that
00:24:28.369 --> 00:24:30.829
it would go into two channels. And so I was trying
00:24:30.829 --> 00:24:35.029
to mix for two people, and it turns out I was
00:24:35.029 --> 00:24:39.410
mixing one single receiver. And so I found out
00:24:39.410 --> 00:24:42.630
after the fact, and I was just shocked that the
00:24:42.630 --> 00:24:45.799
person who had... supplied them this system or
00:24:45.799 --> 00:24:48.740
whoever had gone out and bought these wireless
00:24:48.740 --> 00:24:53.420
mics had not had the knowledge to know that you're
00:24:53.420 --> 00:24:55.880
not supposed to have two mics on one channel.
00:24:56.500 --> 00:25:00.740
Because you won't be able to mix it properly.
00:25:01.039 --> 00:25:03.819
Right after. How did you end up overcoming that
00:25:03.819 --> 00:25:09.259
challenge? So in the end we just had to run with
00:25:09.259 --> 00:25:13.269
whatever we had set. The choir... the choir did
00:25:13.269 --> 00:25:16.670
come through the speakers okay but the room wasn't
00:25:16.670 --> 00:25:21.089
treated either so we were fighting feedback we
00:25:21.089 --> 00:25:24.630
were trying to sing loudly the piano wasn't balanced
00:25:24.630 --> 00:25:27.430
but then after the fact I took those tracks and
00:25:27.430 --> 00:25:30.829
I mixed them for post we were able to get a really
00:25:30.829 --> 00:25:33.750
good recording out of that so what I left the
00:25:33.750 --> 00:25:37.430
church with was a place where they could like
00:25:37.430 --> 00:25:39.809
a starting point where the gain was set correctly.
00:25:39.990 --> 00:25:41.609
I taught them to set the gain. I taught them
00:25:41.609 --> 00:25:44.150
to set the high pass filter. And then I offered
00:25:44.150 --> 00:25:47.990
if they ever had time, I could come back and
00:25:47.990 --> 00:25:52.430
work with their team on how to use this mixer
00:25:52.430 --> 00:25:55.549
properly. What lessons did you learn from that?
00:25:56.809 --> 00:26:01.150
Not to assume that just because a church has
00:26:01.150 --> 00:26:04.589
good equipment means that they have it routed
00:26:04.589 --> 00:26:07.250
properly, means that they have it set up. properly
00:26:07.250 --> 00:26:10.029
and that they know how to use it. I heard the
00:26:10.029 --> 00:26:13.109
name of the mixer from someone I was in contact
00:26:13.109 --> 00:26:15.529
with and I said, oh, they've chosen a good mixer
00:26:15.529 --> 00:26:19.789
for this church. That must mean that their sound
00:26:19.789 --> 00:26:21.789
is good and they know how to use it. And so I
00:26:21.789 --> 00:26:24.849
just came a week prior. What I took away from
00:26:24.849 --> 00:26:28.329
this is that every time we have an event at another
00:26:28.329 --> 00:26:31.589
place, I have to assume that I'm working from
00:26:31.589 --> 00:26:34.190
the ground up and that I need to build a new
00:26:34.190 --> 00:26:38.180
mix for this event. and I have to treat it as
00:26:38.180 --> 00:26:40.759
though I'm working from scratch with a new church
00:26:40.759 --> 00:26:45.960
rather than trying to do it, trying to just go
00:26:45.960 --> 00:26:49.500
there like a week prior and figure out everything
00:26:49.500 --> 00:26:53.400
in very little time. I have to go earlier and
00:26:53.400 --> 00:26:56.500
set myself up for more success, set the church
00:26:56.500 --> 00:27:00.259
up for more success with these projects. I want
00:27:00.259 --> 00:27:02.960
to explore some of those things that some more
00:27:02.960 --> 00:27:04.940
lessons that you have learned over the years
00:27:04.940 --> 00:27:07.980
as well. What tips would you give to somebody
00:27:07.980 --> 00:27:12.680
who is involved in the local church and would
00:27:12.680 --> 00:27:16.180
like to improve the sound quality of their audio
00:27:16.180 --> 00:27:19.839
system? Let's imagine that it's somebody who
00:27:19.839 --> 00:27:23.920
is being maybe just put in that position, doesn't
00:27:23.920 --> 00:27:27.799
really understand much of the basics of audio.
00:27:27.960 --> 00:27:32.380
Live sound mixing. Do you have any like standard?
00:27:32.440 --> 00:27:35.039
I mean, we talked a bit about how you help the
00:27:35.039 --> 00:27:38.579
church that you were working in the past. You
00:27:38.579 --> 00:27:43.079
know, we talked about setting the gain, EQ compression.
00:27:43.819 --> 00:27:45.960
Is there any like tips that you would give somebody
00:27:45.960 --> 00:27:48.200
when it comes to gain staging? Like let's start
00:27:48.200 --> 00:27:50.240
with the gain staging. I think maybe you can
00:27:50.240 --> 00:27:53.480
help people to understand what that means and
00:27:53.480 --> 00:27:55.619
what they should be looking for when setting
00:27:55.619 --> 00:28:01.019
the input gain. Yeah. So gain staging is the
00:28:01.019 --> 00:28:06.160
way you balance volume in versus volume out.
00:28:07.640 --> 00:28:11.660
And so if you look at it from let's say a video,
00:28:11.680 --> 00:28:14.240
if you look at it from let's say a video point
00:28:14.240 --> 00:28:17.759
of view, you have your exposure triangle where
00:28:17.759 --> 00:28:20.400
you have your ISO, which is the sensitivity of
00:28:20.400 --> 00:28:25.259
your sensor. You have your shutter speed, how
00:28:25.259 --> 00:28:30.220
fast the shutter clicks. and you have the aperture
00:28:30.220 --> 00:28:34.579
of your lens which is like how wide the aperture
00:28:34.579 --> 00:28:38.900
is set so that you get your depth of field and
00:28:38.900 --> 00:28:41.599
how much light you're letting in. The same thing
00:28:41.599 --> 00:28:44.980
applies with audio in that you don't want your
00:28:44.980 --> 00:28:48.680
image to be overexposed but you don't want your
00:28:48.680 --> 00:28:51.880
image to be underexposed either. And so you have
00:28:51.880 --> 00:28:54.880
to set your gain so that you have a healthy level
00:28:54.880 --> 00:28:59.160
of signal coming in, so that when you send the
00:28:59.160 --> 00:29:02.599
audio to your speakers, you're not introducing
00:29:02.599 --> 00:29:06.420
a lot of noise from your mixer's electrical systems,
00:29:06.819 --> 00:29:10.099
or you're not sending so much volume in that
00:29:10.099 --> 00:29:13.940
you're overloading the circuitry of your mixer
00:29:13.940 --> 00:29:17.799
or the converters in your mixer and it just gets
00:29:17.799 --> 00:29:20.700
so distorted. You have to set your gain to a
00:29:20.700 --> 00:29:25.220
healthy level, and on analog that's at zero,
00:29:25.279 --> 00:29:29.460
zero dB, if you push the pre -fader lesson, the
00:29:29.460 --> 00:29:33.339
PAFL or solo button on your channels, you will
00:29:33.339 --> 00:29:37.859
get on analog mixers, you'll get the meters will
00:29:37.859 --> 00:29:41.460
start showing the signal of that input, and you
00:29:41.460 --> 00:29:44.500
want to set that input so that it peaks at around
00:29:44.500 --> 00:29:47.640
zero, because if it goes past that, you get analog
00:29:47.640 --> 00:29:52.680
distortion. which is more okay on analog consoles
00:29:52.680 --> 00:29:56.740
than digital. On digital, you have to be very
00:29:56.740 --> 00:30:00.099
careful not to clip, because if you do clip,
00:30:00.599 --> 00:30:05.339
that's not recoverable. On analog, actually,
00:30:05.619 --> 00:30:08.099
there are times that you do want it to distort
00:30:08.099 --> 00:30:11.819
and you get different sounds out of it, but on
00:30:11.819 --> 00:30:16.480
digital, the hard rule is either minus 18 or
00:30:16.480 --> 00:30:22.220
minus 12 on the on the gain So you want to or
00:30:22.220 --> 00:30:24.359
on Alan and Heath they set it more for analog.
00:30:24.380 --> 00:30:28.859
So it's also zero but between digital and analog
00:30:28.859 --> 00:30:31.799
The same thing applies where you want to set
00:30:31.799 --> 00:30:36.220
the level where the the volume coming in Peaks
00:30:36.220 --> 00:30:38.980
like the most it goes to is around the yellow
00:30:38.980 --> 00:30:43.000
part so that if somebody like really really yells
00:30:43.000 --> 00:30:46.700
into the mic, it still doesn't go past zero and
00:30:46.700 --> 00:30:51.569
clip horribly So what could be the case with
00:30:51.569 --> 00:30:54.549
a church that does not have the correct gain
00:30:54.549 --> 00:30:57.569
staging? Like what could be some of those telltale
00:30:57.569 --> 00:31:04.210
signs? Either you get mics that sound like, you
00:31:04.210 --> 00:31:06.450
know, the typical streamer yelling into the mic
00:31:06.450 --> 00:31:09.910
and it sounds really distorted. A lot of live
00:31:09.910 --> 00:31:12.769
streams tend to sound the same way when churches
00:31:12.769 --> 00:31:16.089
haven't really learned or don't have the knowledge
00:31:16.089 --> 00:31:18.789
how to live stream, a lot of the time they want
00:31:18.789 --> 00:31:24.009
to set gain really hot so that it's loud enough
00:31:24.009 --> 00:31:26.970
to hear in the room. But then on the live stream
00:31:26.970 --> 00:31:31.349
that translates more so than in the room. It's
00:31:31.349 --> 00:31:33.349
heard in the room too, but on the live stream
00:31:33.349 --> 00:31:35.789
you don't have the room noise. So it's very obvious
00:31:35.789 --> 00:31:38.829
that it's clipping. And then the other side of
00:31:38.829 --> 00:31:41.529
things is when they're scared to set gain loud
00:31:41.529 --> 00:31:45.450
to a healthy level, because of feedback in the
00:31:45.450 --> 00:31:47.890
room because they haven't done anything where
00:31:47.890 --> 00:31:50.789
they haven't treated the room or they haven't
00:31:50.789 --> 00:31:53.890
tuned their PA and so they don't set gain loud
00:31:53.890 --> 00:31:58.289
enough and the telltale sign of that is the fader
00:31:58.289 --> 00:32:01.809
is at maximum. It's still not loud enough. And
00:32:01.809 --> 00:32:06.529
so you have to get it to a point where your fader
00:32:06.529 --> 00:32:10.369
is at zero. You're mixing at unity so that every
00:32:10.369 --> 00:32:14.339
little move you make is noticeable. because the
00:32:14.339 --> 00:32:17.799
faders don't have a linear scale. If you look
00:32:17.799 --> 00:32:19.940
at your fader, you go to church and you look
00:32:19.940 --> 00:32:22.940
at your fader on the mixer, the distance between
00:32:22.940 --> 00:32:26.400
0 and 5, or 0 and minus 5, is a lot bigger than
00:32:26.400 --> 00:32:29.400
the distance between minus 10 and minus 20. And
00:32:29.400 --> 00:32:31.759
so you want to set your gain so that you're mixing
00:32:31.759 --> 00:32:36.000
around 0, so that whatever small moves you make
00:32:36.000 --> 00:32:39.099
on your faders translate to what you hear in
00:32:39.099 --> 00:32:42.940
the room, and that also... makes it so that you
00:32:42.940 --> 00:32:44.700
have a healthy signal going to your live stream
00:32:44.700 --> 00:32:48.500
that's not too noisy or distorted. I see that
00:32:48.500 --> 00:32:51.940
happening a lot in churches where they are trying,
00:32:52.200 --> 00:32:54.019
if it's a bit too quiet, then they'll just bump
00:32:54.019 --> 00:32:57.779
it up on the faders, you know what I mean? So
00:32:57.779 --> 00:32:59.819
they're trying to compensate with the faders.
00:33:00.160 --> 00:33:02.660
But what you're saying here is that you have
00:33:02.660 --> 00:33:06.769
a problem not with the fader that's If the signal
00:33:06.769 --> 00:33:10.049
itself is on a lower gain level, then that needs
00:33:10.049 --> 00:33:13.829
to be adjusted first according to the input signal
00:33:13.829 --> 00:33:16.769
that's coming. Because it really does, it's why
00:33:16.769 --> 00:33:19.930
it's so important that we have rehearsals and
00:33:19.930 --> 00:33:22.809
things like that. So then we can understand how
00:33:22.809 --> 00:33:26.410
much gain we need to put into the microphone
00:33:26.410 --> 00:33:29.849
in order for it to adjust it to the right level
00:33:29.849 --> 00:33:34.269
for the musicians who are playing. and kind of
00:33:34.269 --> 00:33:38.109
like why I always stress when we have musicians
00:33:38.109 --> 00:33:41.190
come on guys let's do a sound check before we
00:33:41.190 --> 00:33:43.730
you know before you go on stage because You know,
00:33:43.730 --> 00:33:45.529
unless we are getting you up there and checking
00:33:45.529 --> 00:33:48.109
you, checking you, um, we're going to have problems
00:33:48.109 --> 00:33:51.569
in the gain stage. And, and so, um, for all the
00:33:51.569 --> 00:33:53.329
musicians who are out there listening, don't
00:33:53.329 --> 00:33:55.930
feel like it's a waste of time or something for
00:33:55.930 --> 00:33:58.450
you. When the audio technician tells you to go
00:33:58.450 --> 00:34:01.809
up there and, and do a sound check, because it's
00:34:01.809 --> 00:34:04.509
going to help you guys to be heard, um, much
00:34:04.509 --> 00:34:07.269
more clearer. And it's, it's going to help the
00:34:07.269 --> 00:34:09.809
experience for everyone to be much better. If
00:34:09.809 --> 00:34:12.090
we set the gain stage at the correct and the
00:34:12.090 --> 00:34:15.250
very beginning. when we do rehearsals. So that's,
00:34:15.250 --> 00:34:18.210
I guess, in essence, why we have those sound
00:34:18.210 --> 00:34:23.070
checks, isn't it? Yep. I think that's another
00:34:23.070 --> 00:34:27.710
thing I was going to say, is that you need to
00:34:27.710 --> 00:34:31.070
show up for sound. You can't just show up for
00:34:31.070 --> 00:34:36.190
video and the live stream, because the gospel
00:34:36.190 --> 00:34:39.510
is meant to be heard. You don't watch the gospel,
00:34:39.510 --> 00:34:44.360
you listen, you hear the gospel. And one thing
00:34:44.360 --> 00:34:46.500
I was thinking about when I was preparing for
00:34:46.500 --> 00:34:50.480
this podcast is that deaf people might actually
00:34:50.480 --> 00:34:54.539
have a better experience with the resources that
00:34:54.539 --> 00:35:00.699
they have because we actually have video in our
00:35:00.699 --> 00:35:03.980
church down so pat. We have it down pat. We have
00:35:03.980 --> 00:35:07.539
our exposure set correctly. And so those who
00:35:07.539 --> 00:35:10.639
might not be able to hear might be actually at
00:35:10.639 --> 00:35:12.440
an advantage when it comes to our live streams
00:35:12.440 --> 00:35:15.539
because they have the assisted, they have the
00:35:15.539 --> 00:35:17.880
ministries which cater towards them and have
00:35:17.880 --> 00:35:22.059
been worked towards a level where it's very understandable
00:35:22.059 --> 00:35:25.500
and you can get the message across clearly. Whereas
00:35:25.500 --> 00:35:28.780
with audio, we don't have that much knowledge
00:35:28.780 --> 00:35:32.860
about it in our church overall, I'd say. We know
00:35:32.860 --> 00:35:35.199
so much about video, we know how to set exposure
00:35:35.199 --> 00:35:38.480
and all of that. But then when it comes to audio,
00:35:38.809 --> 00:35:42.730
we're trying to, let's put it into the video
00:35:42.730 --> 00:35:46.989
context where we either have it overexposed and
00:35:46.989 --> 00:35:51.289
then try to de -clip in the recording in like
00:35:51.289 --> 00:35:53.750
Lightroom, you try to bring the brightness down
00:35:53.750 --> 00:35:56.969
or you have it so dark that your blacks are clipped
00:35:56.969 --> 00:36:00.329
and you try to bring it up in Lightroom and it's
00:36:00.329 --> 00:36:03.929
not the same as if you set your exposure correctly.
00:36:03.969 --> 00:36:07.809
When you first capture it, when you first record
00:36:07.809 --> 00:36:11.739
it. And so it's so important to show up during
00:36:11.739 --> 00:36:16.300
the week if you can. You can go to your church
00:36:16.300 --> 00:36:20.559
and learn to use your mixer when there's no one
00:36:20.559 --> 00:36:24.039
around so you don't really get embarrassed about
00:36:24.039 --> 00:36:27.559
it. Like if there's feedback, you learn that
00:36:27.559 --> 00:36:30.019
setting too much gain gives you feedback or turning
00:36:30.019 --> 00:36:33.760
up the EQ like this gives you feedback. And so
00:36:33.760 --> 00:36:40.300
in your free time, try to learn audio as well.
00:36:42.179 --> 00:36:47.000
I agree. I agree. And I really love talking to
00:36:47.000 --> 00:36:50.639
you about this, by the way. For me, it's a bit
00:36:50.639 --> 00:36:55.739
of a hobby of mine. What other tips? Where else
00:36:55.739 --> 00:36:58.440
should we go with this? Is there any other areas
00:36:58.440 --> 00:37:00.860
that you would like to explore? I think besides
00:37:00.860 --> 00:37:04.510
learning gain staging, Musicians can go a long
00:37:04.510 --> 00:37:08.150
way, like the audio team can go a long way with
00:37:08.150 --> 00:37:11.750
learning what the basic tools on the mixer do.
00:37:12.409 --> 00:37:15.309
Like learning that you should set a high pass
00:37:15.309 --> 00:37:19.630
around 120 Hz to cut off the aircon rumble in
00:37:19.630 --> 00:37:24.250
the room or cut off the handling noise of the
00:37:24.250 --> 00:37:29.650
mics. Learning that cutting a bit around 500
00:37:29.650 --> 00:37:33.670
to 800 Hz Makes people have more clarity in their
00:37:33.670 --> 00:37:36.630
voice or if they they sound harsh you should
00:37:36.630 --> 00:37:40.289
cut around like two to three kilohertz Simple
00:37:40.289 --> 00:37:44.469
basic tips like this where they might not be
00:37:44.469 --> 00:37:47.889
able to hear it at first Over time you will learn
00:37:47.889 --> 00:37:52.670
to hear it Just knowing that mixing with numbers
00:37:52.670 --> 00:37:58.329
at first more like preset settings just knowing
00:37:58.329 --> 00:38:02.789
that Doing this, a bit of this, will benefit
00:38:02.789 --> 00:38:07.329
the sound. Learning that if you set a compressor
00:38:07.329 --> 00:38:10.610
threshold below so that the gain reduction is
00:38:10.610 --> 00:38:14.929
a certain amount will prevent my livestream viewers'
00:38:15.269 --> 00:38:17.090
ears from getting destroyed when someone yells
00:38:17.090 --> 00:38:23.809
into a mic or when music gets too loud it automatically
00:38:23.809 --> 00:38:29.309
ducks it for you. Just learning the basics. learning
00:38:29.309 --> 00:38:33.730
at least how to use your equipment and really
00:38:33.730 --> 00:38:36.670
putting in the time and effort to learning it
00:38:36.670 --> 00:38:39.929
outside of church so that you can bring your
00:38:39.929 --> 00:38:45.369
best effort and you can serve the gospel and
00:38:45.369 --> 00:38:49.590
serve the message that our church has in the
00:38:49.590 --> 00:38:52.230
best way possible. What's your plans for the
00:38:52.230 --> 00:38:55.710
next five years, Andrew? Like, do you have any...
00:38:56.079 --> 00:39:00.360
Any projects that you're working on to help musicians
00:39:00.360 --> 00:39:03.820
and churches to improve their sound? Yeah, something
00:39:03.820 --> 00:39:06.639
that I've been thinking about for the past couple
00:39:06.639 --> 00:39:12.460
of months is how local church musicians are very,
00:39:12.460 --> 00:39:16.000
very talented, but they do not necessarily have
00:39:16.000 --> 00:39:20.639
the platform to record and release music. And
00:39:20.639 --> 00:39:23.599
that's something that with Mana House, one of
00:39:23.599 --> 00:39:26.559
your previous guests, they... created this space
00:39:26.559 --> 00:39:29.659
where musicians can come in for free, record,
00:39:30.500 --> 00:39:33.179
and if they don't have a mix engineer they can
00:39:33.179 --> 00:39:38.199
mix for them as well. And so my idea is to create
00:39:38.199 --> 00:39:41.719
a global network of Adventist music creatives,
00:39:42.139 --> 00:39:45.719
writers, producers, engineers, both mixing and
00:39:45.719 --> 00:39:51.079
mastering, to create support for these musicians.
00:39:51.519 --> 00:39:54.340
to be able to release their music if they don't
00:39:54.340 --> 00:39:58.599
have the financial means to. And I also want
00:39:58.599 --> 00:40:01.780
this network to provide consulting for churches
00:40:01.780 --> 00:40:05.000
so that eventually musicians can just go to their
00:40:05.000 --> 00:40:09.519
local church to record a song. I want to create
00:40:09.519 --> 00:40:14.519
this network of audio engineers who could consult
00:40:14.519 --> 00:40:19.360
with what gear is needed. I think it would be
00:40:19.360 --> 00:40:22.619
good to have end -to -end audio integration with
00:40:22.619 --> 00:40:27.119
this network of audio engineers and people in
00:40:27.119 --> 00:40:29.400
the church who might be structural engineers,
00:40:29.519 --> 00:40:33.900
who might be audio engineers in that they treat
00:40:33.900 --> 00:40:37.599
acoustics for the room. The sound would sound
00:40:37.599 --> 00:40:39.599
good in the room because it's been integrated
00:40:39.599 --> 00:40:43.239
properly and the team knows how to mix. And then
00:40:43.239 --> 00:40:46.719
after church, maybe during AY, the church musicians
00:40:46.719 --> 00:40:50.079
could go and use the same equipment to record
00:40:50.079 --> 00:40:53.079
music that they want to share. And all in all,
00:40:53.179 --> 00:40:56.500
it would be a big step forward, I think, for
00:40:56.500 --> 00:41:00.440
our church to getting our message out there in
00:41:00.440 --> 00:41:03.639
both spoken word and song. I love the concept
00:41:03.639 --> 00:41:07.039
that you just explained. If people wanted to
00:41:07.039 --> 00:41:09.179
get involved, how could they get in touch with
00:41:09.179 --> 00:41:14.760
you? I'm on Instagram at Andrew CMGY, and I also
00:41:14.760 --> 00:41:20.659
recently started a church audio account at Church
00:41:20.659 --> 00:41:26.940
Audio Asia, where I have this more unique insight
00:41:26.940 --> 00:41:29.820
into churches in Thailand and the Philippines,
00:41:30.260 --> 00:41:32.940
and I know more of the challenges that we face
00:41:32.940 --> 00:41:36.090
here. I want to start out by focusing on our
00:41:36.090 --> 00:41:38.750
churches here in Southeast Asia that may not
00:41:38.750 --> 00:41:40.949
have the same support that churches in the West
00:41:40.949 --> 00:41:44.750
may have. There's a link in my bio on the audio
00:41:44.750 --> 00:41:48.650
account where people can book a 30 minute session
00:41:48.650 --> 00:41:51.110
just for a consultation or to see how we can
00:41:51.110 --> 00:41:53.550
work together. Yeah. And I'll also put that link
00:41:53.550 --> 00:41:55.349
down on the bottom of the description as well
00:41:55.349 --> 00:41:57.769
here. So if you would like to get in touch with
00:41:57.769 --> 00:42:01.230
Andrew to work on any projects in your local
00:42:01.230 --> 00:42:04.170
churches, it could be in Southeast Asia, right?
00:42:04.230 --> 00:42:07.130
It could be in the Pacific. Please reach out
00:42:07.130 --> 00:42:10.630
to him. I know that he would definitely be able
00:42:10.630 --> 00:42:13.170
to help you with any issues that you may be having
00:42:13.170 --> 00:42:17.969
in your audio. Yeah. Well, I have learned a lot
00:42:17.969 --> 00:42:22.909
from this episode. I regularly do the audio for
00:42:22.909 --> 00:42:25.090
my church as well, so it's really good to be
00:42:25.090 --> 00:42:29.590
able to hear some of these things, some of these
00:42:29.590 --> 00:42:32.960
tips and... tips and ways to optimize your church
00:42:32.960 --> 00:42:36.280
audio. Of course, this is not all conclusive.
00:42:37.219 --> 00:42:39.219
We couldn't give an exhaustive description of
00:42:39.219 --> 00:42:41.719
everything that could be done for your church.
00:42:41.920 --> 00:42:43.739
There are so many things that we could cover,
00:42:43.940 --> 00:42:45.820
but I hope that this is an encouragement for
00:42:45.820 --> 00:42:49.340
you to learn more about the audio side of things
00:42:49.340 --> 00:42:52.659
in your music ministry. So thanks a lot for coming
00:42:52.659 --> 00:42:54.800
on the podcast, Andrew. It's been nice to chat
00:42:54.800 --> 00:42:57.400
with you. It's been my pleasure. Yeah. And I
00:42:57.400 --> 00:42:59.619
look forward to doing this again one time. Yeah.
00:42:59.639 --> 00:43:02.139
Yeah, for sure. Maybe if you guys want Andrew
00:43:02.139 --> 00:43:04.940
to come back on the podcast, if you have any
00:43:04.940 --> 00:43:08.679
questions regarding audio, anything audio, I'm
00:43:08.679 --> 00:43:10.719
sure he'll be more than happy to answer them.
00:43:11.260 --> 00:43:14.059
So you guys can leave a comment on this podcast,
00:43:14.179 --> 00:43:16.260
or you can leave a comment on our social media
00:43:16.260 --> 00:43:19.659
and Instagram, where we post the reels and stuff
00:43:19.659 --> 00:43:23.159
like that for this episode. And we would love
00:43:23.159 --> 00:43:25.480
to hear back from you if you have any other questions
00:43:25.480 --> 00:43:27.860
regarding it, be able to get them on to answer
00:43:27.860 --> 00:43:31.079
them. We'll keep it there for now. And yeah,
00:43:31.119 --> 00:43:32.659
so thank you so much for coming on the podcast,
00:43:32.760 --> 00:43:35.539
Andrew. We'll see you next time on the Adventist
00:43:35.539 --> 00:43:36.300
Music Podcast.