WEBVTT
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Welcome to the Acupuncture Marketing School Podcast.
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I'm your host, Michelle Grassick, and I'm here to help you get visible in your community, take marketing action with confidence, and get more patients in your practice and more money in your pocket every week.
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We both know you're a talented, passionate acupuncturist, and that acupuncture has the power to change lives.
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So let's dive right into this episode and talk about how you can reach more patients.
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Welcome back.
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Today I'm joined by Amy Avalar, founder of Acupuncture Practice Systems and the owner of a thriving multidisciplinary clinic with 24 employees.
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Amy has built an incredible practice over the past 18 years.
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And in this conversation, she shares her journey from starting as a massage therapist to growing a large acupuncture business with systems, team members, and strong leadership.
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In this first part of our conversation, we talk about what it really looked like to grow her practice, including while she was still in acupuncture school, how creating systems became the key to scaling her practice, when she knew it was time to hire additional providers, what marketing worked well for her in growing her practice, and an overlooked marketing strategy that can dramatically increase patient retention and referrals.
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If you've ever wondered how larger practices are built, I think you're really going to enjoy this conversation.
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And this is part one of a two-part interview with Amy.
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So be sure to come back in a couple of weeks for the second half.
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All right, let's jump in.
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Today's episode is sponsored by Jane, a practice management EHR for health and wellness professionals.
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Maybe you've heard about AI Scribe and it's been on your radar.
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Maybe you are already using it every day.
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Either way, Jane has some really exciting news.
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AIScribe is now available in Jane for one-on-one telehealth with a few additional improvements under the hood.
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Here's a closer look.
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More personalization and context work together to reduce your editing time and improve note quality and accuracy with practitioner set personal preferences that apply to every note and automatic references to your patient's treatment history.
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This means you get notes that sound more like you and help connect the dots across patient visits.
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And as always, practitioners are able to record live or dictate their notes post-session to help speed up documentation time.
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And this, of course, applies to any type of treatment, not just telehealth.
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Did you know that dictation is a really popular use of AI Scribe?
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For practitioners who prefer not to record but still want the benefits of the tool, it's a great option.
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Hopefully, these updates help you get even more from AI Scribe.
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And if you're curious what else is new at Jane, you can sign up for their free What's New This Summer webinar.
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I'll put the link in the show notes for you.
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If any of these updates have piqued your interest, you can try AIScribe with five free notes per month or book a demo and the Jane team would be happy to show you around.
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And as always, use the code ACUSchool1MO at sign up for a one-month grace period on your new account.
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And of course, I will put that link and the code in the show notes for you as well.
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All right, let's get into this episode with Amy.
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Hello, Amy.
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How are you?
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I'm good.
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How are you?
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I am good.
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Thank you so much for being here today.
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Before we get started, will you introduce yourself for the audience?
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Sure.
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My name is Dr.
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Amy Avalar, and I've been in practice, self-employed for the past 18 years, been growing my business.
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And I'm also the founder of Acupuncture Practice Systems, because I love to help other acupuncturists be successful and navigate the business side of running a practice.
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I would love to start out with your background and how you built the incredible clinic that you have.
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I was on your website and I was looking at how many massage therapists do you have?
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Eight?
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I think right now we have 15 or 16 right now.
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15.
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Okay, I didn't get to the bottom of the page.
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Yeah, it's all good.
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Yeah, 24 employees.
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Okay, so then you and you have another doctor of acupuncture who are practicing acupuncture.
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Yes.
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So how did all of this come about for you to build this really very large business?
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I mean, 24 is a lot, a lot of employees.
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Yes.
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I'm I'm very lucky to have an office manager who is amazing.
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She handles so much stuff for me that there's no way that I would be able to practice acupuncture and own the business.
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And like if I didn't have amazing front desk staff, an amazing office manager, I I've built the systems, they run the systems.
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I mean it's yeah, that's hugely, hugely helpful.
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And so you were originally a massage therapist, correct?
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Yeah, I started massage a long time ago.
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Back I was 18, and I worked somewhere else for a couple of years.
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Um, and then after working somewhere else as a 1099, I decided to open up my own thing and uh start my own massage practice and been self-employed ever since, last 18 years.
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I love it.
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So, what made you decide to go to acupuncture school?
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So, to be totally honest, I loved massage.
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I really did.
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If I could have done it forever and ever, I might have.
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I love the one-on-one working with patients or clients.
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I loved being able to help people.
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I loved that personal connection that you get when you've seen people for a long period of time.
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And so I really enjoyed that piece of it, but massage is just too physically demanding to be a lifelong career.
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Yeah.
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So when I first started out doing massage, I was like, I'm never going to college.
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I just want to be a massage therapist.
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And then about six months in, I was like, oh, this is really a lot of hard work.
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Um, I'm not gonna be able to do this for my entire life.
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And so I thought, well, I'll go to college and I'll get a bachelor's in business and eventually I'll hire other massage therapists.
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I'll do the business side of things when my body can't do massage anymore.
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I'll just own the business.
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And I went through a time period where I think it was a car accident that I was in.
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I had to take a break from massage for a few weeks.
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And in that time, I had other massage therapists who were working for me, but I really just I noticed that I wasn't, I didn't enjoy just the business piece of it.
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I really missed the working.
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Yeah, I missed the working with clients.
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And so I thought, okay, even if I could financially afford to pay all of my bills by just owning the business, I really needed, I felt like I needed something where I would still be able to work with people one-on-one and be able to help people.
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I felt like I would really just, I would miss that so much that just owning the business wouldn't be fulfilling.
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And so I started looking at what else I could get into.
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And at the time, my now husband and I were first dating and I was having this horrible neck and shoulder pain that was a recurring issue from being a massage therapist.
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And I thought I had tried everything.
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And he said, Well, have you tried acupuncture?
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And I was like, No, I haven't tried acupuncture.
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So I went to an acupuncturist and I think it was my second or third treatment.
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I was laying on the table, just so impressed at how much acupuncture was helping me physically.
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And then this light bulb went off.
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And I thought, oh my gosh, this is it.
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This is what I could do.
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I could transition from being a massage therapist to an acupuncturist, and it checked all my boxes.
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It was less physically demanding than massage.
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I could still help people, I could work with people one-on-one, I could continue to be self-employed.
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It was something I could easily add into my business.
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And so that was really kind of where that took off from.
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So I actually came home from that appointment and immediately got online and started researching acupuncture schools.
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I love it.
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And yeah, and he's like, So, how is your treatment today?
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I said, It's great.
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Um, I think I'm gonna go to acupuncture school.
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And he was like, Oh.
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That escalated very quickly.
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Totally, totally.
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But he agreed.
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He's like, that actually makes a lot of sense because, you know, one of my big things is I can't use my body for work forever.
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I'm going to have to transition into using my brain more than my body.
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And yeah, it checked all my boxes.
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And it's been really incredible to have an acupuncture career and see so many people get relief from things that they never thought they could ever get relief from.
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Like it's like acupuncture is just magical in that way.
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It really is.
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I heard a statistic once related to massage therapists that the average massage therapist's career is about eight years.
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Have you ever heard that?
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Just because it is so physically demanding and in particular, it's hard on the joints of the wrists.
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But even people who have outstanding ergonomics, it just is challenging.
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Yeah.
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I haven't heard that statistic, but I would say that is probably pretty true.
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Most people who end up being in massage long term end up transitioning to doing more Swedish, more lymphatic drainage, craniosacral.
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They'll usually, if they don't have a different career, they transition to, they'll usually transition into something that is less physically demanding because, you know, yeah, you just can't, especially if you gave a lot of deep tissue.
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That was one of my big things was I did do a lot of deep tissue work.
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And so I just, yeah, it's it's very physically demanding for sure.
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Yes.
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Well, we had been talking before we hit record about how when you decided to go back to acupuncture school, you had already hired other people and you were in decision mode of what am I going to do?
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Is that the right order?
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Just trying to figure out how I was going to handle the fact that I had a lot of clients and I was now going to have more clients than what I could accommodate because of having to pull back on my schedule to start grad school.
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So you didn't have employees at that point, but that's when you started hiring.
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So you had people working for you while you were taking classes.
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Yes.
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That's the dream.
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You know, it's so funny.
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So on the one hand, it is totally the dream.
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And on the other hand, it was a huge challenge that actually ended up being a blessing in disguise because having someone else there to do the massages on the days that I was not there, totally huge blessing.
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The challenge was I also hired an admin because I was not going to be able to answer the phones when I'm giving massages, nor am I able to answer the phones when I am in grad school in class.
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And so I had hired an admin, but I really had to go through a lot of that initial practice management problem that a lot of people have, where your admin is telling you all the time, what do I do for this situation?
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What do I do for that situation?
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Somebody came in and they want to buy a gift certificate and I haven't sold one in a while and I don't remember how to do it.
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And I'm in the middle of class, you know, stressed out, trying to figure out how to like multitask paying attention in class and getting these answers.
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And so it was really that like squeeze of having that situation where I realized, okay, I have to write some SOPs.
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I have to make protocols.
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I have to do step-by-step instructions.
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I have to delegate with more instruction that of course this person doesn't just automatically know the answers to everything when they just got into this role.
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I have to set them up for success in that way.
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And so it was challenging, but it kind of forced that initial process of making sure that they had what they needed so that I didn't get bothered by the same thing all the time.
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Trial by fire, right?
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Oh, 100%.
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Yeah.
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If you ask anyone who was in my master's cohort with me, they were like, on those 10-minute breaks, Amy was out in the hall on the phone, trying to figure out, trying to troubleshoot things.
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Um, yeah, it was a little bit rough, but I, you know, glad I did it looking back at it.
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But it was it was a lot for sure.
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It's a lot to try to grow a business and be in grad school at the same time.
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Seriously.
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And so you you graduated acupuncture school, and then so then you're back in practice in your practice, finally.
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And you are growing with more and more massage therapists.
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What did that look like?
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Taking a quick break to remind you of our sponsor, Jane, the practice management software designed for health and wellness practitioners.
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Jane's AI Scribe continues to get even better.
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It now works with one-on-one telehealth appointments, gives you more personalized notes based on your preferences and your patient's treatment history, and still lets you choose between recording the visit or simply dictating your notes afterwards.
00:13:28.240 --> 00:13:32.000
You can even try AIScribe with five free notes every month.
00:13:32.240 --> 00:13:36.320
If you'd like to learn more, check out Jane's free What's New This Summer webinar.
00:13:36.399 --> 00:13:45.120
And if you're new to Jane and ready to get started, don't forget to use the code ACUSchool1MO when you sign up to get a one-month grace period on your new account.
00:13:45.279 --> 00:13:48.159
I'll put the links and the code in the show notes for you.
00:13:48.480 --> 00:13:51.279
All right, let's get back to this episode with Amy.
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Yes.
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So I actually grew, we moved locations.
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So when I very first started grad school, I had a one-room office.
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So basically it was just the days that I was in school.
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I had another therapist working for me, and I worked the other days, just maximizing that one room.
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And then it was getting too busy that we had to grow.
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And so we moved to a four-room space.
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And my husband was like, You're crazy.
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Why are you expanding while you're still in grad school?
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This is nuts.
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I was like, I have the demand.
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What am I gonna do?
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Not take the opportunity.
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Of course I'm gonna do it.
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So I did.
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We moved to a four-room office and I hired more massage therapists, and we had the receptionist.
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So yeah, we just kind of continued to grow as the demand for massage increased.
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I hired more massage therapists.
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And we had by the end of grad school, by the end of my finishing my master's in acupuncture, we had grown through that four rooms during that time.
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And we ended up moving to an eight-room space right after I graduated.
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And so yeah, it just kept growing, which was great.
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Wow.
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So how did you know when it was time to hire another acupuncturist?
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Yeah, so the answer is I was going to have my second baby.
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So really for the first, for the start of my first maternity leave, I chose not to have not to hire another acupuncturist.
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So I had passed my boards, I was working as an acupuncturist, but I did not hire another acupuncturist for my first maternity leave.
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And that was because I didn't have enough clients yet to feel like I could really justify bringing on another provider.
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And it was also new to me.
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I'm entering this new like motherhood era, and that was new enough.
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That was enough new things for me at the time.
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Even though I had hired plenty of massage therapists, I just I was nervous to hire another, to hire my first acupuncturist when I was also going to be entering this other new like unknown era of life.
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And so I chose to just refer my patients out during that time.
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But for my second maternity leave, I had grown enough acupuncture clients that I wanted them to have someone to go to during my maternity leave.
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But I also knew that I wanted to keep somebody on after that.
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That like my clientele of new acupuncture patients was continuing to increase.
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Marketing efforts were taking off with that.
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And so because there was enough new clients that were constantly coming in, I also wanted them to have somewhere to go.
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And so that was kind of how I ended up making that decision.
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Makes sense.
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So do you feel like when you were growing the acupuncture side of things, there were marketing strategies that worked really well or things that did not work that well?
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I will say that there's two different ways to market from my perspective, particularly with acupuncture.
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One is by getting new people in the door.
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And then the other one is to market, like really, I hate to say it this way because it sounds kind of it sounds bad.
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Really leverage the patient who's already in your office.
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And so what I mean by that, um, I guess I'll touch on that first.
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So what I mean by that is you already have this patient in your office.
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There's somebody who is already open to acupuncture because they're there.
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And so using some of your your treatment time to explain to patients all of the thing, you know, you don't have to run down like a list of 150 things that acupuncture helps with, but I do it in two different ways.
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One is I will talk to a patient about what it is that they came in for.
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I'll talk to their them about their main concern and maybe a secondary concern.
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So an example is I had a patient who came in for shoulder pain.
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That was his number one thing.
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He also checked off that he has anxiety and he deals with a lot of stress because he's self-employed and um owns a business.
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I shouldn't say just self-employed.
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He owns a business, he has lots of other employees.
00:18:09.519 --> 00:18:14.160
And so I talked to him about it and I said, we can definitely take care of the shoulder.
00:18:14.319 --> 00:18:15.440
That's your number one complaint.
00:18:15.599 --> 00:18:16.960
We'll have our focus be there.
00:18:17.119 --> 00:18:21.519
But if you're okay with it, you know, I can add points in to help with the anxiety as well.
00:18:21.759 --> 00:18:24.559
And he said, Oh, yeah, okay, that's great.
00:18:24.720 --> 00:18:26.960
He had no clue that we could help with that.
00:18:27.680 --> 00:18:28.240
Always.
00:18:28.799 --> 00:18:29.599
100%, right?
00:18:30.000 --> 00:18:32.319
Every yes, yes, totally.
00:18:32.720 --> 00:18:38.319
So I so I treat his shoulder and he's noticing he feels less anxious.
00:18:38.400 --> 00:18:39.920
He feels more calm throughout the week.
00:18:40.240 --> 00:18:44.960
He comes in for his third treatment, and I asked him, it was his third or fourth.
00:18:45.039 --> 00:18:49.119
Um, I asked him how his shoulder was doing, and each week it was getting better.
00:18:49.359 --> 00:18:52.559
So on I think it was his fourth treatment, I asked him how his shoulder's doing.
00:18:52.640 --> 00:18:56.240
And he goes, Oh, I kind of even forgot I was coming in for that.
00:18:56.319 --> 00:19:01.920
I think I've just been mostly, I feel like he goes, I feel like I've mostly been coming in for anxiety at this point.
00:19:02.319 --> 00:19:04.000
And so that is the best.
00:19:04.240 --> 00:19:04.720
Yes.
00:19:04.960 --> 00:19:07.039
So there's two reasons why I love that.
00:19:07.200 --> 00:19:18.000
Number one is now instead of this patient coming in three times, his shoulder being better and him being out in the world and not still in my treatment office, right?
00:19:18.319 --> 00:19:20.319
He's now coming in more consistently.
00:19:20.559 --> 00:19:35.519
So that's a good thing for me as a provider who's trying to fill my schedule, but it's also not in a selfish way, it's a good thing for him because he doesn't just have improved shoulder and, you know, an improved shoulder and now he's back out in the world.
00:19:35.680 --> 00:19:43.279
He's now coming in and getting help with his anxiety, which is going to be an ongoing thing because he ongoingly owns this business.
00:19:43.599 --> 00:19:47.920
So I'm able to help with so many other things.
00:19:48.319 --> 00:19:52.880
And patients, like if you don't tell your patients that, they'll never know.
00:19:53.119 --> 00:20:02.319
So it could be that he goes out into the world and now someone else is talking about how they're, you know, managing their business is so stressful.
00:20:02.480 --> 00:20:04.799
A lot of business owners know each other, right?
00:20:05.119 --> 00:20:10.160
And he now has an opportunity to say, you know what, I've been getting acupuncture and it's made a huge difference.
00:20:10.319 --> 00:20:12.000
But that person may not have shoulder pain.
00:20:12.160 --> 00:20:13.519
That person may just have anxiety.
00:20:13.599 --> 00:20:16.799
And if I wouldn't have told him, he wouldn't have had the opportunity to share.
00:20:17.039 --> 00:20:28.559
So I think really educating your patients on what else you can help with makes a big difference for them in their life and also for them to refer.
00:20:28.799 --> 00:20:37.119
And then sometimes it's just the other way I'll talk about it would just be if you have people who are, they'll say, Oh, like what got you into acupuncture?
00:20:37.200 --> 00:20:39.440
You know, I have new patients ask me that all the time.
00:20:39.599 --> 00:21:00.079
And I use this opportunity to answer their question and also talk about how one of the reasons why I love acupuncture and why I'm so passionate about it is because it can help people with so many things that they would have never thought that acupuncture could help them with, like migraines, like insomnia, like fertility issues, like menstrual cycle issues.
00:21:00.240 --> 00:21:02.559
And I'll just list a few of the main ones.
00:21:02.799 --> 00:21:09.279
And without a doubt, 90% of the time, patients are like, oh, I didn't know you could help with migraines.
00:21:09.359 --> 00:21:19.440
My wife gets migraines, and now his wife comes in to see me, or their coworker has been talking about how they struggle with insomnia, or their friend has been struggling to get pregnant.
00:21:19.680 --> 00:21:27.599
And so talking about it in a way that's not like, hey, do you know someone who has these ailments that you could refer?
00:21:27.920 --> 00:21:30.799
Cause like that doesn't feel good to us either.
00:21:31.039 --> 00:21:32.799
It feels really salesy.
00:21:32.880 --> 00:21:39.759
Um, but if you're just saying, I'm passionate about Chinese medicine because it can help with so many things, that's true.
00:21:39.920 --> 00:21:43.200
I don't know any acupuncturist who's not passionate about that, right?
00:21:43.359 --> 00:21:50.720
Um, and then it gives an opportunity for that person, if they know someone, to, you know, refer them.
00:21:50.880 --> 00:21:57.920
And who doesn't want to refer their friend or their coworker or their partner to someone who can help and who's passionate about helping?
00:21:58.160 --> 00:22:04.559
Once people are in the office, I Think patient education can be so powerful.
00:22:05.200 --> 00:22:05.839
Yes.
00:22:06.319 --> 00:22:18.880
Oh, I am so glad you brought this up because I think that we can also take this approach to make sure that our patients are aware that we have different services.
00:22:19.359 --> 00:22:32.720
So not just to point out all the different symptoms it can treat, but also making sure they know that we have microneedling or cosmetic acupuncture or offer customized Chinese herbal medicine and why they might want that.
00:22:33.039 --> 00:22:36.000
I had a I have a story related to this.
00:22:36.160 --> 00:22:42.000
So one of my associates was saying that she had this cosmetic acupuncture patient.
00:22:42.319 --> 00:22:55.440
And what we're doing right now is we are just sort of testing the waters to see if any of our cosmetic acupuncture regulars would like to do microneedling because it's something that might be within their interest.
00:22:55.680 --> 00:23:04.880
So just sort of having conversations with people and asking, like, oh, do you have an interest in this different method of collagen building?
00:23:05.119 --> 00:23:10.799
And there was this one patient, and I had asked, Oh, is so and so interested in microneedling?
00:23:10.960 --> 00:23:11.680
What do you think?
00:23:11.920 --> 00:23:16.400
And my associate was like, um, you know, I'm I'm not really sure.
00:23:16.559 --> 00:23:19.039
She seems pretty happy with cosmetic acupuncture.
00:23:19.119 --> 00:23:22.400
And I'm like, okay, you know, microneedling's not for everyone.
00:23:22.559 --> 00:23:27.359
But then my associate said, We didn't, we sort of like beat around the bush with the conversation.
00:23:27.440 --> 00:23:28.400
She's like, I'll try again.
00:23:28.480 --> 00:23:31.279
I'll I'll try to get a more clear answer from her.
00:23:31.599 --> 00:23:34.480
And I do send emails about microneedling.
00:23:34.720 --> 00:23:38.799
I have in the past when we launched it and it's been on sale a couple of times.
00:23:39.119 --> 00:23:46.480
I was also on local live television recently, like a local morning show, talking about microneedling.
00:23:46.720 --> 00:23:53.599
And before I went on live, I sent an email to the patient list saying I'm gonna be on TV talking about this topic.
00:23:53.759 --> 00:24:01.519
And then afterwards, I sent a follow-up saying, if you missed it, here's where to watch the segment where I talk about microneedling.
00:24:01.920 --> 00:24:09.839
So my associate comes back and says, Hey, I had a conversation, like a very direct conversation about microneedling with this patient.
00:24:10.000 --> 00:24:13.519
And it turns out that she did not know that we offer microneedling.
00:24:13.759 --> 00:24:14.960
She had no idea.
00:24:15.279 --> 00:24:20.000
And it is just the case that she is not a huge email person.
00:24:20.559 --> 00:24:24.240
She was not paying a ton of attention to her email that week.
00:24:24.400 --> 00:24:29.599
I don't think she gets the channel that I was on for the live television.
00:24:29.839 --> 00:24:32.160
So it really just emphasized for me.
00:24:32.480 --> 00:24:33.759
Actually, let me go back a step.
00:24:33.920 --> 00:24:35.359
So they had this conversation.
00:24:35.519 --> 00:24:40.000
She didn't realize we had microneedling, but she was very interested and she signed up for it right away.
00:24:40.240 --> 00:24:48.640
So for this particular patient, the most effective touch point was having a conversation in person with her provider.
00:24:48.799 --> 00:25:01.039
And I think that all of the marketing that we can do is wonderful because people do respond to the emails that I send and we do get feedback from when I'm on like live TV.
00:25:01.119 --> 00:25:05.279
Thank goodness, because it's it's not my favorite thing to do, but I do it.
00:25:05.519 --> 00:25:12.400
But just not everybody is absorbing content from the same places.
00:25:12.640 --> 00:25:30.880
And sometimes that one-on-one real person conversation is the most powerful thing that you can do to, as you were saying, help someone continue treatment or maybe even transition them to multiple different kinds of treatment at your office so that they become a long-term patient.
00:25:31.200 --> 00:25:31.839
100%.
00:25:32.400 --> 00:25:32.720
Yeah.
00:25:32.960 --> 00:25:41.440
People are more inclined to listen when they're already there and than they are to open an email.
00:25:41.759 --> 00:25:52.720
People love to be able to just see things or know things without having to really I hate to say like without having to work hard for it, because we think like opening an email is not that hard.
00:25:52.880 --> 00:25:55.599
But for some people, it's like, ugh, I don't have time for this.
00:25:55.680 --> 00:26:04.319
You know, when they're looking at their email, they're in that mode of I just need to do what's my absolute have to, and the rest of it delete, goes to junk.
00:26:04.720 --> 00:26:08.480
Especially opening an email, clicking, and then watching four minutes.
00:26:08.640 --> 00:26:13.519
Like even that, four minutes can be too much for some people, depending on the mindset that they're in, right?
00:26:13.599 --> 00:26:16.799
If they're just cleaning their inbox, that's not the place they're in.
00:26:17.119 --> 00:26:18.400
Yeah, absolutely.
00:26:18.640 --> 00:26:18.880
Yeah.
00:26:19.039 --> 00:26:24.960
I don't share that to make it sound like why bother sending emails and and doing making all these efforts.
00:26:25.119 --> 00:26:25.440
Totally.
00:26:25.599 --> 00:26:28.559
But it's more like you have to have repeated touch points.
00:26:28.720 --> 00:26:29.119
100%.
00:26:29.519 --> 00:26:33.519
I always tell people take every opportunity to repeat yourself.
00:26:33.759 --> 00:26:36.960
You're not bothering people because their attention is so scattered.
00:26:37.119 --> 00:26:41.039
They're not gonna think to themselves like Michelle has talked about this nine times before.
00:26:41.279 --> 00:26:46.079
Finally, a bell is gonna ring and they're gonna say, Oh, that's what this is about.
00:26:47.039 --> 00:26:47.519
100%.
00:26:48.079 --> 00:26:53.920
Well, and to your point of making sure that you are connecting and it's not to say not to email.
00:26:54.160 --> 00:27:06.799
Let's say she saw that email come through, she didn't even open it, she didn't pay attention to the fact that it was about microneedling, but she had to cancel her last cosmetic appointment and hadn't gotten rebooked yet.
00:27:06.960 --> 00:27:10.480
And she sees your email pop through and she's like, oh shoot, I forgot to book.
00:27:10.640 --> 00:27:12.480
And then she calls in to book cosmetic.
00:27:12.720 --> 00:27:22.480
So it's not even necessarily about exactly what the content is, but it is just another ping, another, hey, we're still here.
00:27:22.640 --> 00:27:24.079
This is what we got going on.
00:27:24.319 --> 00:27:25.119
There's that too.
00:27:25.279 --> 00:27:33.119
That is, like you said, the the touch point of being in front of people often enough that they think of you.
00:27:33.440 --> 00:27:37.920
Yeah, I love thinking about email as, like you said, literally a reminder.
00:27:38.160 --> 00:27:39.039
Still here.
00:27:39.279 --> 00:27:42.640
Remember, remember how you meant to reschedule your appointment?
00:27:42.720 --> 00:27:43.519
We're still here.
00:27:43.839 --> 00:27:44.640
Totally.
00:27:49.440 --> 00:27:51.839
That's all for today's conversation with Amy.
00:27:52.000 --> 00:28:15.920
Be sure to tune in to the next episode to hear the second half of her interview, including topics like what marketing did not work as well as she thought it would, why it's essential to have an ads professional who knows what they're doing, why tracking your marketing is essential for success, how to get MD referrals, and how she became a primary referral source for a nearby fertility center.
00:28:16.160 --> 00:28:18.240
Can't wait to talk to you next time.
00:28:22.000 --> 00:28:24.000
As always, thanks so much for listening.
00:28:24.160 --> 00:28:28.720
If your marketing is feeling stuck, I'd love to help you figure out exactly what to focus on next.
00:28:28.960 --> 00:28:41.440
The Marketing Breakthrough Audit is a personalized 30-minute video review of your website, your Google Business Profile, and other parts of your online presence with clear, practical recommendations tailored to your practice.
00:28:41.759 --> 00:28:46.960
No generic advice, just the changes I would prioritize if this were my own clinic.
00:28:47.200 --> 00:28:52.160
You can learn more and reserve your spot at MichelleGrassick.com forward slash audit.
00:28:52.319 --> 00:28:53.599
Thanks so much for being here.
00:28:53.759 --> 00:28:55.279
I'll talk to you next time.
00:00:04.959 --> 00:00:07.759
Welcome to the Acupuncture Marketing School Podcast.
00:00:07.839 --> 00:00:18.239
I'm your host, Michelle Grassick, and I'm here to help you get visible in your community, take marketing action with confidence, and get more patients in your practice and more money in your pocket every week.
00:00:18.399 --> 00:00:24.480
We both know you're a talented, passionate acupuncturist, and that acupuncture has the power to change lives.
00:00:24.640 --> 00:00:29.199
So let's dive right into this episode and talk about how you can reach more patients.
00:00:34.240 --> 00:00:35.039
Welcome back.
00:00:35.200 --> 00:00:44.799
Today I'm joined by Amy Avalar, founder of Acupuncture Practice Systems and the owner of a thriving multidisciplinary clinic with 24 employees.
00:00:45.039 --> 00:00:48.640
Amy has built an incredible practice over the past 18 years.
00:00:48.880 --> 00:00:59.920
And in this conversation, she shares her journey from starting as a massage therapist to growing a large acupuncture business with systems, team members, and strong leadership.
00:01:00.240 --> 00:01:25.359
In this first part of our conversation, we talk about what it really looked like to grow her practice, including while she was still in acupuncture school, how creating systems became the key to scaling her practice, when she knew it was time to hire additional providers, what marketing worked well for her in growing her practice, and an overlooked marketing strategy that can dramatically increase patient retention and referrals.
00:01:26.079 --> 00:01:31.920
If you've ever wondered how larger practices are built, I think you're really going to enjoy this conversation.
00:01:32.159 --> 00:01:36.239
And this is part one of a two-part interview with Amy.
00:01:36.319 --> 00:01:39.920
So be sure to come back in a couple of weeks for the second half.
00:01:40.159 --> 00:01:41.519
All right, let's jump in.
00:01:43.280 --> 00:01:48.799
Today's episode is sponsored by Jane, a practice management EHR for health and wellness professionals.
00:01:49.040 --> 00:01:53.040
Maybe you've heard about AI Scribe and it's been on your radar.
00:01:53.200 --> 00:01:55.760
Maybe you are already using it every day.
00:01:56.079 --> 00:01:58.719
Either way, Jane has some really exciting news.
00:01:58.959 --> 00:02:06.239
AIScribe is now available in Jane for one-on-one telehealth with a few additional improvements under the hood.
00:02:06.480 --> 00:02:07.760
Here's a closer look.
00:02:08.000 --> 00:02:10.000
AIScribe for Telehealth is here.
00:02:10.159 --> 00:02:16.960
Transcribe your one-to-one telehealth sessions, and once you're all done, get a draft note to review and sign.
00:02:17.199 --> 00:02:31.759
More personalization and context work together to reduce your editing time and improve note quality and accuracy with practitioner set personal preferences that apply to every note and automatic references to your patient's treatment history.
00:02:31.919 --> 00:02:37.919
This means you get notes that sound more like you and help connect the dots across patient visits.
00:02:38.479 --> 00:02:45.840
And as always, practitioners are able to record live or dictate their notes post-session to help speed up documentation time.
00:02:46.000 --> 00:02:49.680
And this, of course, applies to any type of treatment, not just telehealth.
00:02:50.159 --> 00:02:53.840
Did you know that dictation is a really popular use of AI Scribe?
00:02:54.000 --> 00:02:59.280
For practitioners who prefer not to record but still want the benefits of the tool, it's a great option.
00:02:59.520 --> 00:03:02.879
Hopefully, these updates help you get even more from AI Scribe.
00:03:03.120 --> 00:03:08.560
And if you're curious what else is new at Jane, you can sign up for their free What's New This Summer webinar.
00:03:08.719 --> 00:03:10.879
I'll put the link in the show notes for you.
00:03:11.120 --> 00:03:20.879
If any of these updates have piqued your interest, you can try AIScribe with five free notes per month or book a demo and the Jane team would be happy to show you around.
00:03:21.039 --> 00:03:28.159
And as always, use the code ACUSchool1MO at sign up for a one-month grace period on your new account.
00:03:28.319 --> 00:03:32.479
And of course, I will put that link and the code in the show notes for you as well.
00:03:32.879 --> 00:03:35.680
All right, let's get into this episode with Amy.
00:03:36.560 --> 00:03:37.520
Hello, Amy.
00:03:37.599 --> 00:03:38.159
How are you?
00:03:38.479 --> 00:03:38.960
I'm good.
00:03:39.039 --> 00:03:39.759
How are you?
00:03:40.159 --> 00:03:40.960
I am good.
00:03:41.120 --> 00:03:43.039
Thank you so much for being here today.
00:03:43.199 --> 00:03:46.319
Before we get started, will you introduce yourself for the audience?
00:03:46.800 --> 00:03:47.039
Sure.
00:03:47.280 --> 00:03:47.919
My name is Dr.
00:03:48.000 --> 00:03:54.479
Amy Avalar, and I've been in practice, self-employed for the past 18 years, been growing my business.
00:03:54.800 --> 00:04:05.840
And I'm also the founder of Acupuncture Practice Systems, because I love to help other acupuncturists be successful and navigate the business side of running a practice.
00:04:06.159 --> 00:04:11.759
I would love to start out with your background and how you built the incredible clinic that you have.
00:04:11.919 --> 00:04:16.399
I was on your website and I was looking at how many massage therapists do you have?
00:04:16.639 --> 00:04:17.199
Eight?
00:04:17.600 --> 00:04:20.959
I think right now we have 15 or 16 right now.
00:04:21.199 --> 00:04:21.519
15.
00:04:21.600 --> 00:04:23.040
Okay, I didn't get to the bottom of the page.
00:04:23.439 --> 00:04:25.040
Yeah, it's all good.
00:04:25.519 --> 00:04:27.600
Yeah, 24 employees.
00:04:27.920 --> 00:04:32.639
Okay, so then you and you have another doctor of acupuncture who are practicing acupuncture.
00:04:33.439 --> 00:04:34.079
Yes.
00:04:34.399 --> 00:04:39.279
So how did all of this come about for you to build this really very large business?
00:04:39.439 --> 00:04:42.480
I mean, 24 is a lot, a lot of employees.
00:04:42.720 --> 00:04:43.040
Yes.
00:04:43.279 --> 00:04:46.800
I'm I'm very lucky to have an office manager who is amazing.
00:04:47.120 --> 00:04:56.879
She handles so much stuff for me that there's no way that I would be able to practice acupuncture and own the business.
00:04:57.120 --> 00:05:05.759
And like if I didn't have amazing front desk staff, an amazing office manager, I I've built the systems, they run the systems.
00:05:05.839 --> 00:05:08.800
I mean it's yeah, that's hugely, hugely helpful.
00:05:09.120 --> 00:05:12.800
And so you were originally a massage therapist, correct?
00:05:13.120 --> 00:05:16.000
Yeah, I started massage a long time ago.
00:05:16.160 --> 00:05:20.800
Back I was 18, and I worked somewhere else for a couple of years.
00:05:20.959 --> 00:05:32.079
Um, and then after working somewhere else as a 1099, I decided to open up my own thing and uh start my own massage practice and been self-employed ever since, last 18 years.
00:05:32.319 --> 00:05:32.800
I love it.
00:05:32.879 --> 00:05:35.600
So, what made you decide to go to acupuncture school?
00:05:35.920 --> 00:05:39.439
So, to be totally honest, I loved massage.
00:05:39.600 --> 00:05:40.399
I really did.
00:05:40.639 --> 00:05:44.560
If I could have done it forever and ever, I might have.
00:05:44.800 --> 00:05:48.240
I love the one-on-one working with patients or clients.
00:05:48.399 --> 00:05:50.319
I loved being able to help people.
00:05:50.560 --> 00:05:56.720
I loved that personal connection that you get when you've seen people for a long period of time.
00:05:56.959 --> 00:06:04.399
And so I really enjoyed that piece of it, but massage is just too physically demanding to be a lifelong career.
00:06:04.560 --> 00:06:04.800
Yeah.
00:06:04.959 --> 00:06:07.920
So when I first started out doing massage, I was like, I'm never going to college.
00:06:08.000 --> 00:06:09.439
I just want to be a massage therapist.
00:06:09.519 --> 00:06:14.240
And then about six months in, I was like, oh, this is really a lot of hard work.
00:06:14.399 --> 00:06:18.319
Um, I'm not gonna be able to do this for my entire life.
00:06:18.480 --> 00:06:26.000
And so I thought, well, I'll go to college and I'll get a bachelor's in business and eventually I'll hire other massage therapists.
00:06:26.160 --> 00:06:29.839
I'll do the business side of things when my body can't do massage anymore.
00:06:29.920 --> 00:06:30.959
I'll just own the business.
00:06:31.199 --> 00:06:35.680
And I went through a time period where I think it was a car accident that I was in.
00:06:35.839 --> 00:06:39.040
I had to take a break from massage for a few weeks.
00:06:39.360 --> 00:06:50.800
And in that time, I had other massage therapists who were working for me, but I really just I noticed that I wasn't, I didn't enjoy just the business piece of it.
00:06:50.959 --> 00:06:53.439
I really missed the working.
00:06:53.680 --> 00:06:56.160
Yeah, I missed the working with clients.
00:06:56.319 --> 00:07:11.040
And so I thought, okay, even if I could financially afford to pay all of my bills by just owning the business, I really needed, I felt like I needed something where I would still be able to work with people one-on-one and be able to help people.
00:07:11.199 --> 00:07:16.079
I felt like I would really just, I would miss that so much that just owning the business wouldn't be fulfilling.
00:07:16.240 --> 00:07:19.920
And so I started looking at what else I could get into.
00:07:20.079 --> 00:07:29.199
And at the time, my now husband and I were first dating and I was having this horrible neck and shoulder pain that was a recurring issue from being a massage therapist.
00:07:29.439 --> 00:07:31.519
And I thought I had tried everything.
00:07:31.600 --> 00:07:34.319
And he said, Well, have you tried acupuncture?
00:07:34.480 --> 00:07:37.040
And I was like, No, I haven't tried acupuncture.
00:07:37.199 --> 00:07:42.399
So I went to an acupuncturist and I think it was my second or third treatment.
00:07:42.480 --> 00:07:48.399
I was laying on the table, just so impressed at how much acupuncture was helping me physically.
00:07:48.560 --> 00:07:50.720
And then this light bulb went off.
00:07:50.959 --> 00:07:53.199
And I thought, oh my gosh, this is it.
00:07:53.439 --> 00:07:54.800
This is what I could do.
00:07:54.959 --> 00:08:01.040
I could transition from being a massage therapist to an acupuncturist, and it checked all my boxes.
00:08:01.199 --> 00:08:03.600
It was less physically demanding than massage.
00:08:03.680 --> 00:08:08.800
I could still help people, I could work with people one-on-one, I could continue to be self-employed.
00:08:08.879 --> 00:08:11.600
It was something I could easily add into my business.
00:08:11.839 --> 00:08:15.120
And so that was really kind of where that took off from.
00:08:15.199 --> 00:08:21.439
So I actually came home from that appointment and immediately got online and started researching acupuncture schools.
00:08:21.759 --> 00:08:22.480
I love it.
00:08:22.720 --> 00:08:26.160
And yeah, and he's like, So, how is your treatment today?
00:08:26.319 --> 00:08:27.199
I said, It's great.
00:08:27.279 --> 00:08:29.199
Um, I think I'm gonna go to acupuncture school.
00:08:29.360 --> 00:08:30.560
And he was like, Oh.
00:08:31.839 --> 00:08:33.840
That escalated very quickly.
00:08:34.320 --> 00:08:35.519
Totally, totally.
00:08:35.759 --> 00:08:36.559
But he agreed.
00:08:36.639 --> 00:08:43.279
He's like, that actually makes a lot of sense because, you know, one of my big things is I can't use my body for work forever.
00:08:43.440 --> 00:08:46.799
I'm going to have to transition into using my brain more than my body.
00:08:46.960 --> 00:08:48.960
And yeah, it checked all my boxes.
00:08:49.200 --> 00:09:01.039
And it's been really incredible to have an acupuncture career and see so many people get relief from things that they never thought they could ever get relief from.
00:09:01.200 --> 00:09:03.759
Like it's like acupuncture is just magical in that way.
00:09:04.080 --> 00:09:05.039
It really is.
00:09:05.519 --> 00:09:12.480
I heard a statistic once related to massage therapists that the average massage therapist's career is about eight years.
00:09:12.720 --> 00:09:13.840
Have you ever heard that?
00:09:14.159 --> 00:09:20.320
Just because it is so physically demanding and in particular, it's hard on the joints of the wrists.
00:09:20.559 --> 00:09:25.679
But even people who have outstanding ergonomics, it just is challenging.
00:09:26.080 --> 00:09:26.320
Yeah.
00:09:26.480 --> 00:09:31.679
I haven't heard that statistic, but I would say that is probably pretty true.
00:09:31.919 --> 00:09:42.080
Most people who end up being in massage long term end up transitioning to doing more Swedish, more lymphatic drainage, craniosacral.
00:09:42.480 --> 00:09:55.440
They'll usually, if they don't have a different career, they transition to, they'll usually transition into something that is less physically demanding because, you know, yeah, you just can't, especially if you gave a lot of deep tissue.
00:09:55.600 --> 00:09:58.720
That was one of my big things was I did do a lot of deep tissue work.
00:09:58.799 --> 00:10:03.279
And so I just, yeah, it's it's very physically demanding for sure.
00:10:03.600 --> 00:10:04.080
Yes.
00:10:04.320 --> 00:10:16.399
Well, we had been talking before we hit record about how when you decided to go back to acupuncture school, you had already hired other people and you were in decision mode of what am I going to do?
00:10:16.480 --> 00:10:17.600
Is that the right order?
00:10:18.080 --> 00:10:31.600
Just trying to figure out how I was going to handle the fact that I had a lot of clients and I was now going to have more clients than what I could accommodate because of having to pull back on my schedule to start grad school.
00:10:31.919 --> 00:10:35.679
So you didn't have employees at that point, but that's when you started hiring.
00:10:35.840 --> 00:10:40.000
So you had people working for you while you were taking classes.
00:10:40.399 --> 00:10:41.039
Yes.
00:10:41.440 --> 00:10:42.879
That's the dream.
00:10:43.279 --> 00:10:45.120
You know, it's so funny.
00:10:45.360 --> 00:10:48.559
So on the one hand, it is totally the dream.
00:10:48.720 --> 00:11:04.399
And on the other hand, it was a huge challenge that actually ended up being a blessing in disguise because having someone else there to do the massages on the days that I was not there, totally huge blessing.
00:11:04.639 --> 00:11:16.720
The challenge was I also hired an admin because I was not going to be able to answer the phones when I'm giving massages, nor am I able to answer the phones when I am in grad school in class.
00:11:16.960 --> 00:11:31.279
And so I had hired an admin, but I really had to go through a lot of that initial practice management problem that a lot of people have, where your admin is telling you all the time, what do I do for this situation?
00:11:31.440 --> 00:11:32.879
What do I do for that situation?
00:11:33.200 --> 00:11:38.480
Somebody came in and they want to buy a gift certificate and I haven't sold one in a while and I don't remember how to do it.
00:11:38.639 --> 00:11:47.519
And I'm in the middle of class, you know, stressed out, trying to figure out how to like multitask paying attention in class and getting these answers.
00:11:47.679 --> 00:11:56.399
And so it was really that like squeeze of having that situation where I realized, okay, I have to write some SOPs.
00:11:56.559 --> 00:11:58.080
I have to make protocols.
00:11:58.320 --> 00:12:00.720
I have to do step-by-step instructions.
00:12:00.960 --> 00:12:10.480
I have to delegate with more instruction that of course this person doesn't just automatically know the answers to everything when they just got into this role.
00:12:10.720 --> 00:12:12.879
I have to set them up for success in that way.
00:12:13.039 --> 00:12:24.480
And so it was challenging, but it kind of forced that initial process of making sure that they had what they needed so that I didn't get bothered by the same thing all the time.
00:12:25.360 --> 00:12:26.799
Trial by fire, right?
00:12:27.039 --> 00:12:27.759
Oh, 100%.
00:12:28.240 --> 00:12:28.559
Yeah.
00:12:28.720 --> 00:12:41.120
If you ask anyone who was in my master's cohort with me, they were like, on those 10-minute breaks, Amy was out in the hall on the phone, trying to figure out, trying to troubleshoot things.
00:12:41.279 --> 00:12:46.080
Um, yeah, it was a little bit rough, but I, you know, glad I did it looking back at it.
00:12:46.240 --> 00:12:48.000
But it was it was a lot for sure.
00:12:48.159 --> 00:12:52.000
It's a lot to try to grow a business and be in grad school at the same time.
00:12:52.399 --> 00:12:53.440
Seriously.
00:12:53.759 --> 00:13:00.720
And so you you graduated acupuncture school, and then so then you're back in practice in your practice, finally.
00:13:01.120 --> 00:13:04.080
And you are growing with more and more massage therapists.
00:13:04.159 --> 00:13:05.360
What did that look like?
00:13:05.679 --> 00:13:12.080
Taking a quick break to remind you of our sponsor, Jane, the practice management software designed for health and wellness practitioners.
00:13:12.399 --> 00:13:15.120
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00:13:15.279 --> 00:13:28.000
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00:13:28.240 --> 00:13:32.000
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00:13:32.240 --> 00:13:36.320
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00:13:36.399 --> 00:13:45.120
And if you're new to Jane and ready to get started, don't forget to use the code ACUSchool1MO when you sign up to get a one-month grace period on your new account.
00:13:45.279 --> 00:13:48.159
I'll put the links and the code in the show notes for you.
00:13:48.480 --> 00:13:51.279
All right, let's get back to this episode with Amy.
00:13:52.000 --> 00:13:52.639
Yes.
00:13:52.960 --> 00:13:57.120
So I actually grew, we moved locations.
00:13:57.440 --> 00:14:01.200
So when I very first started grad school, I had a one-room office.
00:14:01.440 --> 00:14:04.240
So basically it was just the days that I was in school.
00:14:04.480 --> 00:14:09.360
I had another therapist working for me, and I worked the other days, just maximizing that one room.
00:14:09.519 --> 00:14:13.600
And then it was getting too busy that we had to grow.
00:14:13.759 --> 00:14:16.159
And so we moved to a four-room space.
00:14:16.480 --> 00:14:18.879
And my husband was like, You're crazy.
00:14:19.120 --> 00:14:22.080
Why are you expanding while you're still in grad school?
00:14:22.240 --> 00:14:22.879
This is nuts.
00:14:23.120 --> 00:14:24.240
I was like, I have the demand.
00:14:24.399 --> 00:14:25.200
What am I gonna do?
00:14:25.519 --> 00:14:26.639
Not take the opportunity.
00:14:26.799 --> 00:14:28.000
Of course I'm gonna do it.
00:14:28.240 --> 00:14:29.519
So I did.
00:14:29.600 --> 00:14:34.960
We moved to a four-room office and I hired more massage therapists, and we had the receptionist.
00:14:35.200 --> 00:14:41.279
So yeah, we just kind of continued to grow as the demand for massage increased.
00:14:41.519 --> 00:14:43.919
I hired more massage therapists.
00:14:44.159 --> 00:14:56.000
And we had by the end of grad school, by the end of my finishing my master's in acupuncture, we had grown through that four rooms during that time.
00:14:56.159 --> 00:15:01.039
And we ended up moving to an eight-room space right after I graduated.
00:15:01.200 --> 00:15:04.080
And so yeah, it just kept growing, which was great.
00:15:04.399 --> 00:15:04.879
Wow.
00:15:05.120 --> 00:15:09.840
So how did you know when it was time to hire another acupuncturist?
00:15:10.240 --> 00:15:15.519
Yeah, so the answer is I was going to have my second baby.
00:15:15.840 --> 00:15:27.679
So really for the first, for the start of my first maternity leave, I chose not to have not to hire another acupuncturist.
00:15:27.840 --> 00:15:36.000
So I had passed my boards, I was working as an acupuncturist, but I did not hire another acupuncturist for my first maternity leave.
00:15:36.080 --> 00:15:43.600
And that was because I didn't have enough clients yet to feel like I could really justify bringing on another provider.
00:15:43.919 --> 00:15:45.679
And it was also new to me.
00:15:45.840 --> 00:15:50.639
I'm entering this new like motherhood era, and that was new enough.
00:15:50.799 --> 00:15:52.960
That was enough new things for me at the time.
00:15:53.200 --> 00:16:05.600
Even though I had hired plenty of massage therapists, I just I was nervous to hire another, to hire my first acupuncturist when I was also going to be entering this other new like unknown era of life.
00:16:05.759 --> 00:16:09.759
And so I chose to just refer my patients out during that time.
00:16:10.000 --> 00:16:20.399
But for my second maternity leave, I had grown enough acupuncture clients that I wanted them to have someone to go to during my maternity leave.
00:16:20.559 --> 00:16:26.480
But I also knew that I wanted to keep somebody on after that.
00:16:26.639 --> 00:16:32.399
That like my clientele of new acupuncture patients was continuing to increase.
00:16:32.559 --> 00:16:34.799
Marketing efforts were taking off with that.
00:16:34.960 --> 00:16:42.879
And so because there was enough new clients that were constantly coming in, I also wanted them to have somewhere to go.
00:16:43.200 --> 00:16:46.480
And so that was kind of how I ended up making that decision.
00:16:46.960 --> 00:16:47.840
Makes sense.
00:16:48.080 --> 00:16:56.960
So do you feel like when you were growing the acupuncture side of things, there were marketing strategies that worked really well or things that did not work that well?
00:16:57.519 --> 00:17:05.119
I will say that there's two different ways to market from my perspective, particularly with acupuncture.
00:17:05.359 --> 00:17:08.079
One is by getting new people in the door.
00:17:08.160 --> 00:17:15.519
And then the other one is to market, like really, I hate to say it this way because it sounds kind of it sounds bad.
00:17:15.839 --> 00:17:18.400
Really leverage the patient who's already in your office.
00:17:18.640 --> 00:17:21.759
And so what I mean by that, um, I guess I'll touch on that first.
00:17:21.839 --> 00:17:25.599
So what I mean by that is you already have this patient in your office.
00:17:25.759 --> 00:17:29.279
There's somebody who is already open to acupuncture because they're there.
00:17:29.519 --> 00:17:43.839
And so using some of your your treatment time to explain to patients all of the thing, you know, you don't have to run down like a list of 150 things that acupuncture helps with, but I do it in two different ways.
00:17:44.079 --> 00:17:49.759
One is I will talk to a patient about what it is that they came in for.
00:17:50.000 --> 00:17:53.599
I'll talk to their them about their main concern and maybe a secondary concern.
00:17:53.759 --> 00:17:56.960
So an example is I had a patient who came in for shoulder pain.
00:17:57.039 --> 00:17:58.160
That was his number one thing.
00:17:58.319 --> 00:18:06.160
He also checked off that he has anxiety and he deals with a lot of stress because he's self-employed and um owns a business.
00:18:06.319 --> 00:18:07.599
I shouldn't say just self-employed.
00:18:07.680 --> 00:18:09.440
He owns a business, he has lots of other employees.
00:18:09.519 --> 00:18:14.160
And so I talked to him about it and I said, we can definitely take care of the shoulder.
00:18:14.319 --> 00:18:15.440
That's your number one complaint.
00:18:15.599 --> 00:18:16.960
We'll have our focus be there.
00:18:17.119 --> 00:18:21.519
But if you're okay with it, you know, I can add points in to help with the anxiety as well.
00:18:21.759 --> 00:18:24.559
And he said, Oh, yeah, okay, that's great.
00:18:24.720 --> 00:18:26.960
He had no clue that we could help with that.
00:18:27.680 --> 00:18:28.240
Always.
00:18:28.799 --> 00:18:29.599
100%, right?
00:18:30.000 --> 00:18:32.319
Every yes, yes, totally.
00:18:32.720 --> 00:18:38.319
So I so I treat his shoulder and he's noticing he feels less anxious.
00:18:38.400 --> 00:18:39.920
He feels more calm throughout the week.
00:18:40.240 --> 00:18:44.960
He comes in for his third treatment, and I asked him, it was his third or fourth.
00:18:45.039 --> 00:18:49.119
Um, I asked him how his shoulder was doing, and each week it was getting better.
00:18:49.359 --> 00:18:52.559
So on I think it was his fourth treatment, I asked him how his shoulder's doing.
00:18:52.640 --> 00:18:56.240
And he goes, Oh, I kind of even forgot I was coming in for that.
00:18:56.319 --> 00:19:01.920
I think I've just been mostly, I feel like he goes, I feel like I've mostly been coming in for anxiety at this point.
00:19:02.319 --> 00:19:04.000
And so that is the best.
00:19:04.240 --> 00:19:04.720
Yes.
00:19:04.960 --> 00:19:07.039
So there's two reasons why I love that.
00:19:07.200 --> 00:19:18.000
Number one is now instead of this patient coming in three times, his shoulder being better and him being out in the world and not still in my treatment office, right?
00:19:18.319 --> 00:19:20.319
He's now coming in more consistently.
00:19:20.559 --> 00:19:35.519
So that's a good thing for me as a provider who's trying to fill my schedule, but it's also not in a selfish way, it's a good thing for him because he doesn't just have improved shoulder and, you know, an improved shoulder and now he's back out in the world.
00:19:35.680 --> 00:19:43.279
He's now coming in and getting help with his anxiety, which is going to be an ongoing thing because he ongoingly owns this business.
00:19:43.599 --> 00:19:47.920
So I'm able to help with so many other things.
00:19:48.319 --> 00:19:52.880
And patients, like if you don't tell your patients that, they'll never know.
00:19:53.119 --> 00:20:02.319
So it could be that he goes out into the world and now someone else is talking about how they're, you know, managing their business is so stressful.
00:20:02.480 --> 00:20:04.799
A lot of business owners know each other, right?
00:20:05.119 --> 00:20:10.160
And he now has an opportunity to say, you know what, I've been getting acupuncture and it's made a huge difference.
00:20:10.319 --> 00:20:12.000
But that person may not have shoulder pain.
00:20:12.160 --> 00:20:13.519
That person may just have anxiety.
00:20:13.599 --> 00:20:16.799
And if I wouldn't have told him, he wouldn't have had the opportunity to share.
00:20:17.039 --> 00:20:28.559
So I think really educating your patients on what else you can help with makes a big difference for them in their life and also for them to refer.
00:20:28.799 --> 00:20:37.119
And then sometimes it's just the other way I'll talk about it would just be if you have people who are, they'll say, Oh, like what got you into acupuncture?
00:20:37.200 --> 00:20:39.440
You know, I have new patients ask me that all the time.
00:20:39.599 --> 00:21:00.079
And I use this opportunity to answer their question and also talk about how one of the reasons why I love acupuncture and why I'm so passionate about it is because it can help people with so many things that they would have never thought that acupuncture could help them with, like migraines, like insomnia, like fertility issues, like menstrual cycle issues.
00:21:00.240 --> 00:21:02.559
And I'll just list a few of the main ones.
00:21:02.799 --> 00:21:09.279
And without a doubt, 90% of the time, patients are like, oh, I didn't know you could help with migraines.
00:21:09.359 --> 00:21:19.440
My wife gets migraines, and now his wife comes in to see me, or their coworker has been talking about how they struggle with insomnia, or their friend has been struggling to get pregnant.
00:21:19.680 --> 00:21:27.599
And so talking about it in a way that's not like, hey, do you know someone who has these ailments that you could refer?
00:21:27.920 --> 00:21:30.799
Cause like that doesn't feel good to us either.
00:21:31.039 --> 00:21:32.799
It feels really salesy.
00:21:32.880 --> 00:21:39.759
Um, but if you're just saying, I'm passionate about Chinese medicine because it can help with so many things, that's true.
00:21:39.920 --> 00:21:43.200
I don't know any acupuncturist who's not passionate about that, right?
00:21:43.359 --> 00:21:50.720
Um, and then it gives an opportunity for that person, if they know someone, to, you know, refer them.
00:21:50.880 --> 00:21:57.920
And who doesn't want to refer their friend or their coworker or their partner to someone who can help and who's passionate about helping?
00:21:58.160 --> 00:22:04.559
Once people are in the office, I Think patient education can be so powerful.
00:22:05.200 --> 00:22:05.839
Yes.
00:22:06.319 --> 00:22:18.880
Oh, I am so glad you brought this up because I think that we can also take this approach to make sure that our patients are aware that we have different services.
00:22:19.359 --> 00:22:32.720
So not just to point out all the different symptoms it can treat, but also making sure they know that we have microneedling or cosmetic acupuncture or offer customized Chinese herbal medicine and why they might want that.
00:22:33.039 --> 00:22:36.000
I had a I have a story related to this.
00:22:36.160 --> 00:22:42.000
So one of my associates was saying that she had this cosmetic acupuncture patient.
00:22:42.319 --> 00:22:55.440
And what we're doing right now is we are just sort of testing the waters to see if any of our cosmetic acupuncture regulars would like to do microneedling because it's something that might be within their interest.
00:22:55.680 --> 00:23:04.880
So just sort of having conversations with people and asking, like, oh, do you have an interest in this different method of collagen building?
00:23:05.119 --> 00:23:10.799
And there was this one patient, and I had asked, Oh, is so and so interested in microneedling?
00:23:10.960 --> 00:23:11.680
What do you think?
00:23:11.920 --> 00:23:16.400
And my associate was like, um, you know, I'm I'm not really sure.
00:23:16.559 --> 00:23:19.039
She seems pretty happy with cosmetic acupuncture.
00:23:19.119 --> 00:23:22.400
And I'm like, okay, you know, microneedling's not for everyone.
00:23:22.559 --> 00:23:27.359
But then my associate said, We didn't, we sort of like beat around the bush with the conversation.
00:23:27.440 --> 00:23:28.400
She's like, I'll try again.
00:23:28.480 --> 00:23:31.279
I'll I'll try to get a more clear answer from her.
00:23:31.599 --> 00:23:34.480
And I do send emails about microneedling.
00:23:34.720 --> 00:23:38.799
I have in the past when we launched it and it's been on sale a couple of times.
00:23:39.119 --> 00:23:46.480
I was also on local live television recently, like a local morning show, talking about microneedling.
00:23:46.720 --> 00:23:53.599
And before I went on live, I sent an email to the patient list saying I'm gonna be on TV talking about this topic.
00:23:53.759 --> 00:24:01.519
And then afterwards, I sent a follow-up saying, if you missed it, here's where to watch the segment where I talk about microneedling.
00:24:01.920 --> 00:24:09.839
So my associate comes back and says, Hey, I had a conversation, like a very direct conversation about microneedling with this patient.
00:24:10.000 --> 00:24:13.519
And it turns out that she did not know that we offer microneedling.
00:24:13.759 --> 00:24:14.960
She had no idea.
00:24:15.279 --> 00:24:20.000
And it is just the case that she is not a huge email person.
00:24:20.559 --> 00:24:24.240
She was not paying a ton of attention to her email that week.
00:24:24.400 --> 00:24:29.599
I don't think she gets the channel that I was on for the live television.
00:24:29.839 --> 00:24:32.160
So it really just emphasized for me.
00:24:32.480 --> 00:24:33.759
Actually, let me go back a step.
00:24:33.920 --> 00:24:35.359
So they had this conversation.
00:24:35.519 --> 00:24:40.000
She didn't realize we had microneedling, but she was very interested and she signed up for it right away.
00:24:40.240 --> 00:24:48.640
So for this particular patient, the most effective touch point was having a conversation in person with her provider.
00:24:48.799 --> 00:25:01.039
And I think that all of the marketing that we can do is wonderful because people do respond to the emails that I send and we do get feedback from when I'm on like live TV.
00:25:01.119 --> 00:25:05.279
Thank goodness, because it's it's not my favorite thing to do, but I do it.
00:25:05.519 --> 00:25:12.400
But just not everybody is absorbing content from the same places.
00:25:12.640 --> 00:25:30.880
And sometimes that one-on-one real person conversation is the most powerful thing that you can do to, as you were saying, help someone continue treatment or maybe even transition them to multiple different kinds of treatment at your office so that they become a long-term patient.
00:25:31.200 --> 00:25:31.839
100%.
00:25:32.400 --> 00:25:32.720
Yeah.
00:25:32.960 --> 00:25:41.440
People are more inclined to listen when they're already there and than they are to open an email.
00:25:41.759 --> 00:25:52.720
People love to be able to just see things or know things without having to really I hate to say like without having to work hard for it, because we think like opening an email is not that hard.
00:25:52.880 --> 00:25:55.599
But for some people, it's like, ugh, I don't have time for this.
00:25:55.680 --> 00:26:04.319
You know, when they're looking at their email, they're in that mode of I just need to do what's my absolute have to, and the rest of it delete, goes to junk.
00:26:04.720 --> 00:26:08.480
Especially opening an email, clicking, and then watching four minutes.
00:26:08.640 --> 00:26:13.519
Like even that, four minutes can be too much for some people, depending on the mindset that they're in, right?
00:26:13.599 --> 00:26:16.799
If they're just cleaning their inbox, that's not the place they're in.
00:26:17.119 --> 00:26:18.400
Yeah, absolutely.
00:26:18.640 --> 00:26:18.880
Yeah.
00:26:19.039 --> 00:26:24.960
I don't share that to make it sound like why bother sending emails and and doing making all these efforts.
00:26:25.119 --> 00:26:25.440
Totally.
00:26:25.599 --> 00:26:28.559
But it's more like you have to have repeated touch points.
00:26:28.720 --> 00:26:29.119
100%.
00:26:29.519 --> 00:26:33.519
I always tell people take every opportunity to repeat yourself.
00:26:33.759 --> 00:26:36.960
You're not bothering people because their attention is so scattered.
00:26:37.119 --> 00:26:41.039
They're not gonna think to themselves like Michelle has talked about this nine times before.
00:26:41.279 --> 00:26:46.079
Finally, a bell is gonna ring and they're gonna say, Oh, that's what this is about.
00:26:47.039 --> 00:26:47.519
100%.
00:26:48.079 --> 00:26:53.920
Well, and to your point of making sure that you are connecting and it's not to say not to email.
00:26:54.160 --> 00:27:06.799
Let's say she saw that email come through, she didn't even open it, she didn't pay attention to the fact that it was about microneedling, but she had to cancel her last cosmetic appointment and hadn't gotten rebooked yet.
00:27:06.960 --> 00:27:10.480
And she sees your email pop through and she's like, oh shoot, I forgot to book.
00:27:10.640 --> 00:27:12.480
And then she calls in to book cosmetic.
00:27:12.720 --> 00:27:22.480
So it's not even necessarily about exactly what the content is, but it is just another ping, another, hey, we're still here.
00:27:22.640 --> 00:27:24.079
This is what we got going on.
00:27:24.319 --> 00:27:25.119
There's that too.
00:27:25.279 --> 00:27:33.119
That is, like you said, the the touch point of being in front of people often enough that they think of you.
00:27:33.440 --> 00:27:37.920
Yeah, I love thinking about email as, like you said, literally a reminder.
00:27:38.160 --> 00:27:39.039
Still here.
00:27:39.279 --> 00:27:42.640
Remember, remember how you meant to reschedule your appointment?
00:27:42.720 --> 00:27:43.519
We're still here.
00:27:43.839 --> 00:27:44.640
Totally.
00:27:49.440 --> 00:27:51.839
That's all for today's conversation with Amy.
00:27:52.000 --> 00:28:15.920
Be sure to tune in to the next episode to hear the second half of her interview, including topics like what marketing did not work as well as she thought it would, why it's essential to have an ads professional who knows what they're doing, why tracking your marketing is essential for success, how to get MD referrals, and how she became a primary referral source for a nearby fertility center.
00:28:16.160 --> 00:28:18.240
Can't wait to talk to you next time.
00:28:22.000 --> 00:28:24.000
As always, thanks so much for listening.
00:28:24.160 --> 00:28:28.720
If your marketing is feeling stuck, I'd love to help you figure out exactly what to focus on next.
00:28:28.960 --> 00:28:41.440
The Marketing Breakthrough Audit is a personalized 30-minute video review of your website, your Google Business Profile, and other parts of your online presence with clear, practical recommendations tailored to your practice.
00:28:41.759 --> 00:28:46.960
No generic advice, just the changes I would prioritize if this were my own clinic.
00:28:47.200 --> 00:28:52.160
You can learn more and reserve your spot at MichelleGrassick.com forward slash audit.
00:28:52.319 --> 00:28:53.599
Thanks so much for being here.
00:28:53.759 --> 00:28:55.279
I'll talk to you next time.
