Practical Accessibility Magic: Spells, Curses, and False Promises | Blue Owl Brewing "Lime in the Coconut" Milkshake Sour DIPA

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NOTE
This file was generated by Descript
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Chris Hinds: Welcome to Accessibility
Craft, where we explore the complex
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challenges and emerging trends that are
shaping digital accessibility, while
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sipping on unique craft beverages.
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Equalize Digital, The most trusted
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name in WordPress accessibility.
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Join us every week as we break down
accessibility news and share the expert
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strategies we've used to help make
millions of websites more accessible.
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Grab a drink, the show starts now!
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Amber: Hey, everybody.
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It's Amber, and I'm here today with Chris.
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Chris: Hey everybody.
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Amber: And Steve.
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Steve Jones: Hello everyone.
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Amber: And this is episode number 186 of
Accessibility Craft, which means you can
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find show notes and a full transcript
if you go to accessibilitycraft.com/186.
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I think we have a super fun
episode planned that maybe will
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fit with some October vibes.
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We'll have a conversation about that and
decide whether or not, but I hope you
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enjoy it, and I hope that after you enjoy
this, you give us a like or a rating, or
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you share this episode with your friends.
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We very much would
appreciate you doing that.
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We start every episode with a beverage.
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What are we drinking today, Chris?
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Chris: We are having from Blue
Owl Brewing, Lime in the Coconut
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Milkshake Sour Double IPA or
DIPA, sweet lime and coconut.
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We like sours, but we don't like IPAs,
so I felt like this one would be maybe a
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conundrum that sparks some conversation.
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Amber: Yeah, please
tell me what is a DIPA?
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Chris: I think they just put
double the amount of hops.
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Steve Jones: Oh, gross.
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Chris: Don't… Yeah.
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Amber: But it's a sour.
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Chris: Yeah, but it's a sour
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Steve Jones: Oh…
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Amber: I thought sours were always fruity.
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Chris: I mean, it's got lime.
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Lime's a fruit, technically.
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Amber: So I was looking at the description
on their website, it says… Well,
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of course, are you guys all familiar
with the song, "You put the lime in
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the coconut, you drink it all up"?
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I was like, I wanna…
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Chris: Yes.
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Amber: But, then I'm afraid
we'll get banned from YouTube.
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Chris: W- we'll get taken down for sure.
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Amber: Yeah, they'll be like, "Copyright."
I don't know, maybe you're allowed
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to do five seconds or something.
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But, it was interesting because it says on
there that it contains milk sugar, I guess
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because that's the milkshake part, and
maybe I guess they're trying to give it
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more of the like coconut milk kinda vibe.
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I have no idea what milk sugar is.
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Chris: Steve's got the owl there.
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It's also got pink flamingos on the
side, which I think is kinda interesting,
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but it's got a nice illustration of
an owl with Blue Owl Brewing, and a
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couple of wheat things in the emblem.
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And it's got a very festive,
tropical, right, motif going on.
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Amber: Yeah.
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Chris: I'm excited to, I'm excited
to experience this conundrum of
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a beverage maybe, or maybe it'll
just be… Maybe it'll be awful.
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Maybe it'll be delicious.
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I'm gonna crack it open.
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Amber: Something because I think
obviously I said a minute ago we're
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gonna have some October vibes, and this
beverage does not look like October.
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It's like pink and lime green.
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It looks like Summer.
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But here is why I connect
this beverage to October.
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There is a movie called Practical
Magic which came out in the '90s, and
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it's about… It has Sandra Bullock
and Nicole Kidman and a bunch of super
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famous women in it, and they're witches.
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And there's this scene where they
have midnight margaritas and they
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dance in their kitchen, and they
sing the Coconut and the Lime song.
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Chris: Mm-hmm.
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Amber: And so when Chris got this
that's all I thought about, and I'm
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like, "It's October," so I don't know.
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Steve Jones: Yeah.
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Amber: It looks like a summer beverage,
but I'm calling this a Halloween beverage.
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Have you guys watched Practical Magic?
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Steve Jones: Maybe 30 years ago.
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Amber: Are you planning or is your wife
planning to rewatch it and then go watch
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Practical Magic 2 at the movie theater?
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'Cause I think that's out right now.
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Steve Jones: Or was it
at the movie theater?
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Yeah…
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Amber: I think so.
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Steve Jones: I don't know.
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Amber: I wa- I was sort of thinking
maybe I'd introduce my older daughter
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it, see if she wants to watch it with me.
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How's it smell?
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Steve Jones: Mm, sour.
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Chris: I like the smell.
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It's got the hop, but there's lime
and there's a coconut undertone.
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So it's delivering exactly
what the can promises.
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Steve Jones: Mm-hmm.
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Amber: It does smell good.
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Man, I wish I had brought a cup.
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I want to see what color it is.
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Chris: Very tart, like a
sour, like you'd expect.
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The bitter is there too from the hop.
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But the tart, the tartness
like offsets it a little bit,
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makes it a little more fruity.
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I saw Steve's face.
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What do you think, Steve?
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Steve Jones: Holy smokes.
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It…
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Amber: That a good holy
smokes or a bad one?
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Steve Jones: I mean, Chris
is like, "It's tart." And I'm
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like, "It is super tart." And…
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Amber: It, yeah, it's
got good lime flavor.
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Steve Jones: Once you get past the
first, it hits you hard the first time.
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But it's not too bad the second time.
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Amber: Ooh, I like this.
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It tastes like a cocktail
to me, not a beer.
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Chris: You know, I can see that.
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Amber: The hops or the IPA at all.
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Chris: Oh, you're not getting
the, like on the end, you're not
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getting like the bitterness at all?
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Or is it just…
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Amber: No, on the…
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Chris: Subtle for you?
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Amber: The m- the taste to
me is sweeter on the end.
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I get the tart, the sour up front,
and then it finishes with that
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kind of sweeter, milky coconut.
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I can smell hops a tiny bit,
but I don't… this does
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not taste like an IPA to me.
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Steve Jones: No.
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Chris: Yeah.
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The sour really cuts it.
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I feel like if the lime wasn't there,
there would definitely be more hop.
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But I am getting a definite, on my
palate, I'm getting a definite, like,
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constant and consistent undertone
and finish of bitterness like you
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would get from an IPA, but it is
very lime coconut, like you said.
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I'm gonna taste it again.
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I don't know if I'm getting the lacto
side of things, like the milk, but…
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Amber: I kinda get that.
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I do kinda get the creamy
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Steve Jones: I feel like it runs
a wave, like it comes in sour,
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gets kind of creamy, and then the
end is a little more sour again.
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Chris: Mm-hmm.
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Steve Jones: Yeah.
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Chris: There's a lot to
think about with this one.
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I'm enjoying the complexity.
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Amber: Man, where is this brewery?
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Chris: They're in Austin, Texas.
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Yeah.
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Amber: Austin.
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I've never heard of this brewery,
but now I suddenly wanna try more.
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That's kinda cool.
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Steve Jones: You remember those tearjerker
candies we had when we were kids?
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Amber: Oh, or Warheads.
00:07:04.732 --> 00:07:05.404
Chris: Warheads.
00:07:05.424 --> 00:07:05.715
Yeah.
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Amber: Warheads was I always thought
they tasted a little bit like puke.
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But it was like weirdly like you want it.
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I don't even know.
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It had the weird sour that was
awful, and then it would get sweet,
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and it was like you hated it,
but you still wanted to eat it.
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Steve Jones: Why do I keep eating this?
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Amber: Yeah.
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Chris: There is a Warheads
soda or maybe a beer.
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I'm, I can't remember which one,
but I feel like I've seen it around.
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Maybe we should get that sometime.
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Steve Jones: I mean, I thought…
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Chris: Just for Amber.
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… Steve Jones: Leaving like a
sourness on my lips and stuff.
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Chris: Mm-hmm.
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Amber: So it reminds you of that candy?
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Mm-hmm.
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Alright…
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Chris: (cross Talk)
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… Amber: Two thumbs up.
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It's unexpected, and it
delivers on what it promises.
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I like it!
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Chris: I'm two thumbs up.
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I'm two thumbs up also because it
kind of gave me what I expected, but
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it subverted it in a lot of ways too.
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It's very complex and I'm getting
something different every time I
00:08:00.763 --> 00:08:02.103
drink it, so I'm two thumbs up.
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Steve Jones: Yeah.
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I think it's an interesting beer.
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It's a IPA that doesn't-- when you
said DIPA and you said that it's
00:08:11.948 --> 00:08:15.348
double the hops, I'm like, "Okay,
so double the urine flavor," right?
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Chris: Yeah.
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Steve Jones: But it's actually not.
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I mean, it's interesting, it's fun.
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I like it.
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I'm like, I'm rarely ever interested
to drink the extra ones you sent me.
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Amber: But you might
actually with this one?
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Steve Jones: Yeah, I'm like, "Ah, this
would be fun to like turn on Practical
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Magic 2 and sit at home watch it."
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Amber: I am curious, can you guys get
with me on this as a Fall beverage, or
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does this still feel very Summer to you?
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Steve Jones: Yeah, I don't know why I
feel like an owl is fall, but it… I
00:08:44.153 --> 00:08:47.398
mean, an owl can be around anytime, but
it seems like an owl would be more Fall.
00:08:47.410 --> 00:08:52.503
The flamingos are definitely,
you know, more summertime vibe.
00:08:53.240 --> 00:08:58.829
Amber: So WCAG 3 has been making progress.
00:08:59.207 --> 00:09:03.348
There is a, an official draft
available for people to review.
00:09:03.700 --> 00:09:06.295
We'll post a link to it in the show
notes if you wanna check it out.
00:09:07.534 --> 00:09:12.712
It has some stuff that is quite
different and I think it would be
00:09:12.713 --> 00:09:16.013
interesting for us to talk about it.
00:09:17.033 --> 00:09:17.436
Steve Jones: Yeah.
00:09:18.431 --> 00:09:20.207
Let me put on my WCAG thinking hat here.
00:09:20.686 --> 00:09:20.908
Amber: Oh.
00:09:20.983 --> 00:09:21.563
Chris: Oh, there you go.
00:09:21.584 --> 00:09:24.870
Amber: Help you think better about WCAG?
00:09:25.257 --> 00:09:25.595
Steve Jones: Yeah.
00:09:26.302 --> 00:09:26.641
Amber: Yeah.
00:09:26.641 --> 00:09:34.426
So number one, what feels like
totally big breaking change, which
00:09:34.426 --> 00:09:37.920
is I guess why we're going from two
to three, like a big … What did
00:09:37.923 --> 00:09:39.488
we call that whole version number?
00:09:39.489 --> 00:09:41.754
I don't even know what that's
called in version control, but
00:09:41.809 --> 00:09:43.258
major ver- yeah, it is a…
00:09:43.632 --> 00:09:43.645
Chris: mm-hmm.
00:09:43.831 --> 00:09:48.818
… Amber: Major change, which is that
we are moving away from A, AA,
00:09:48.857 --> 00:09:52.562
AAA for measuring conformance.
00:09:53.561 --> 00:09:54.923
Chris: Oh, that's interesting.
00:09:55.268 --> 00:09:57.094
All or nothing, kinda.
00:09:57.860 --> 00:10:04.751
Amber: Yeah, so the, draft proposes a
single level of conformance called core
00:10:04.751 --> 00:10:10.578
requirements that are then supplemented
by additional requirements, recommended
00:10:10.579 --> 00:10:12.526
practices, and reporting tiers.
00:10:13.865 --> 00:10:15.187
Here's my question for you all.
00:10:15.257 --> 00:10:19.369
Do you think this makes it easier
or harder to measure your website?
00:10:20.369 --> 00:10:21.589
Steve Jones: How's that any different?
00:10:22.901 --> 00:10:23.266
'Cause…
00:10:23.271 --> 00:10:27.506
Amber: yeah, I mean, I guess like
it is weird because you could
00:10:27.507 --> 00:10:29.441
say was A the core requirement?
00:10:29.459 --> 00:10:29.844
Steve Jones: Yeah.
00:10:30.837 --> 00:10:35.332
Amber: But maybe I guess maybe AA
was the core requirement and then AAA
00:10:35.343 --> 00:10:37.550
was all the recommended practices.
00:10:37.947 --> 00:10:37.957
Steve Jones: Yeah.
00:10:38.616 --> 00:10:39.254
Amber: I don't know.
00:10:39.997 --> 00:10:41.827
Chris: What's the reporting tiers piece?
00:10:42.726 --> 00:10:45.555
Did they go into that much
with what they mean by that?
00:10:46.166 --> 00:10:50.416
Amber: So there is a blog post
that Shawn Lawton Henry, who
00:10:50.424 --> 00:10:56.143
is the W3C Web Accessibility
Initiative director, published.
00:10:56.143 --> 00:10:57.994
We can also link this in the show notes.
00:10:58.043 --> 00:11:04.993
And he did talk a little bit more
about, like, how it's going to be
00:11:05.993 --> 00:11:12.607
used both as kind of like a ruler
for measurement of accessibility and
00:11:12.609 --> 00:11:17.457
compliance and how they're planning
to change all of that with reporting.
00:11:17.871 --> 00:11:21.356
You know, it will be interesting for us
or anyone else who does accessibility
00:11:21.358 --> 00:11:26.018
conformance reports, 'cause this is
a service we offer and the template
00:11:26.048 --> 00:11:28.808
that we use comes from a different
organization, but it's like the
00:11:28.823 --> 00:11:30.878
internationally recognized template.
00:11:32.166 --> 00:11:34.311
That whole thing is
gonna have to be updated.
00:11:34.565 --> 00:11:35.107
Steve Jones: Mm-hmm.
00:11:36.139 --> 00:11:42.745
Amber: Because it is all based on the
2.2 version is the one that we use.
00:11:43.043 --> 00:11:45.408
Steve Jones: For listeners, maybe
the easiest way to break it down a
00:11:45.411 --> 00:11:50.229
little bit is you touched on so single
level conformance is going to take
00:11:50.230 --> 00:11:58.136
in A and AA criterion, and then the
supplemental isn't necessarily the AAA,
00:11:59.152 --> 00:12:04.124
but it's just things y- covers areas
that cannot be objectively measured
00:12:04.126 --> 00:12:06.548
or do not apply to every situation.
00:12:07.144 --> 00:12:10.206
Chris: So some of them are use
case specific kind of or…
00:12:10.270 --> 00:12:14.719
Amber: I think too in the blog post
that I mentioned that Sean wrote,
00:12:14.912 --> 00:12:19.118
he talked a lot about how one of
the shifts they're trying to make is
00:12:19.119 --> 00:12:23.826
making sure that they're balancing
different disabled people's needs
00:12:23.857 --> 00:12:26.068
because not everyone has the same needs.
00:12:26.537 --> 00:12:30.803
And he provides an example, for
example, with sign language.
00:12:31.577 --> 00:12:36.362
So sign is the first language of
some people, and some people are not
00:12:36.366 --> 00:12:41.534
even fluent in written text, so just
providing a written alternative is not
00:12:41.885 --> 00:12:44.012
sufficient for communicating to them.
00:12:44.568 --> 00:12:49.396
And so they said, "In an ideal world,
perhaps having all text and audio content
00:12:49.407 --> 00:12:53.119
also available in sign languages would
be most accessible, but that is not a
00:12:53.119 --> 00:12:59.335
practical requirement, not with today's
technology and resources." So that
00:12:59.337 --> 00:13:03.289
is something where they're trying to
figure out how do you balance out these
00:13:03.289 --> 00:13:08.190
challenges because that is something
that these people need, but practically
00:13:08.202 --> 00:13:10.130
implementing it is very difficult.
00:13:11.198 --> 00:13:11.484
Steve Jones: Mm-hmm.
00:13:12.432 --> 00:13:16.344
The interesting thing is like
where does AAA fold into?
00:13:16.578 --> 00:13:18.041
Or are they kind of like
00:13:18.274 --> 00:13:24.844
AAA in its current state is not
always something that can objectively
00:13:24.845 --> 00:13:26.589
always be measured accurately.
00:13:27.172 --> 00:13:31.627
Chris: It seems like AAA kind of
becomes this diaspora of different
00:13:31.627 --> 00:13:33.087
things that could apply or not.
00:13:33.499 --> 00:13:37.801
Amber: Yeah, I think some of it
can be very clearly measured.
00:13:37.816 --> 00:13:42.375
Like the AAA success criterion for
color contrast, although that's a whole
00:13:42.410 --> 00:13:45.324
other conversation maybe we should have
when we get closer to WCAG 3, which
00:13:45.324 --> 00:13:47.706
is how is color contrast changing?
00:13:48.068 --> 00:13:51.196
But like that is… it's very
clearly pass or fail, can be
00:13:51.197 --> 00:13:53.036
measured numerically, right?
00:13:53.184 --> 00:13:53.660
Steve Jones: Right.
00:13:55.024 --> 00:13:56.544
Amber: But yeah.
00:13:56.609 --> 00:13:57.730
I think it's…
00:13:57.866 --> 00:13:59.013
Steve Jones: But where
does that fall here?
00:13:59.161 --> 00:13:59.671
Yeah.
00:13:59.831 --> 00:14:00.396
Amber: I don't know.
00:14:00.438 --> 00:14:00.982
It's hard.
00:14:01.009 --> 00:14:03.386
I mean, they haven't explicitly
said that they're gonna make
00:14:03.387 --> 00:14:05.677
it part of core requirements.
00:14:06.173 --> 00:14:10.060
They've only explicitly said that A and
AA will be part of core requirements.
00:14:10.745 --> 00:14:16.332
So th- think the other thing that
is interesting here is there's
00:14:16.336 --> 00:14:20.369
this whole conversation now about
whether accessibility requirements
00:14:20.382 --> 00:14:22.021
should depend upon context.
00:14:22.356 --> 00:14:27.402
Because right now, Web Content
Accessibility Guidelines c- can
00:14:27.402 --> 00:14:30.810
be equally applied to any website.
00:14:32.116 --> 00:14:41.909
And that means my personal blog, which
I know fails because I have many images
00:14:41.912 --> 00:14:46.675
that I added 15 years ago of my children
that have no alt text or probably even
00:14:46.682 --> 00:14:53.319
more horribly have image underscore
1-2-3-4 or something as a alt text,
00:14:53.319 --> 00:14:56.408
which I laugh, but it's really bad, but
also it's blog posts from forever ago.
00:14:56.895 --> 00:15:02.458
But my website failing that
is way different from I need
00:15:02.458 --> 00:15:03.917
to go pay my medical bill.
00:15:04.372 --> 00:15:04.586
Steve Jones: Mm-hmm.
00:15:04.815 --> 00:15:08.512
Amber: I need to submit an
onboarding form to my doctor, right?
00:15:08.512 --> 00:15:15.875
That has a much different severity
implication even for the exact same issue.
00:15:16.875 --> 00:15:16.885
Steve Jones: Yeah.
00:15:17.885 --> 00:15:22.312
Chris: I mean, I think we've
always gauged severity at least
00:15:22.313 --> 00:15:24.581
a little bit as a society, right?
00:15:24.658 --> 00:15:29.698
What is public sector versus, you
know, institutional private sector
00:15:29.709 --> 00:15:35.802
versus Main Street private sector ver-
versus, you know, personal and private.
00:15:36.091 --> 00:15:40.895
So I think having these different
contexts accounted for in some way is
00:15:40.895 --> 00:15:46.213
an interesting proposal and probably
more reflective of, I guess, the
00:15:46.214 --> 00:15:50.852
real world versus having everything
be black and white, all or nothing.
00:15:51.459 --> 00:15:51.754
Steve Jones: Mm-hmm.
00:15:51.836 --> 00:15:57.501
Chris: I-- As a high-level comment I
think I'm generally supportive of it.
00:15:57.740 --> 00:15:58.136
Amber: Yeah.
00:15:58.230 --> 00:16:00.951
Chris: Ultimately it comes down
to how they implement it, right?
00:16:01.352 --> 00:16:05.271
Steve Jones: Y- yeah, I think the li-
like what you're saying is the lines
00:16:05.273 --> 00:16:07.207
are currently drawn through regulation.
00:16:08.071 --> 00:16:12.797
I think what this does maybe is it
takes a step further and helps define
00:16:12.797 --> 00:16:17.745
those lines in the criterion a little
bit more than through regulation.
00:16:17.759 --> 00:16:21.284
So yeah, your water bill needs to
be able to be paid because it's
00:16:21.284 --> 00:16:24.963
a public utility that receives
funds so they, there's certain
00:16:25.179 --> 00:16:26.832
conformance levels they have to meet.
00:16:26.847 --> 00:16:30.584
But you know, somebody that just a
website, like a medical… A lot of
00:16:30.584 --> 00:16:34.006
times, know, sometimes medical can
get away with some stuff, right?
00:16:34.780 --> 00:16:37.983
And because they're not necessarily
taking public funds and things like that.
00:16:37.991 --> 00:16:41.680
But so I think it kind of like tries
to pull some of the regulatory things
00:16:41.751 --> 00:16:46.001
into the criterion, meaning that
like, hey, if th- if this is where
00:16:46.001 --> 00:16:49.986
somebody goes to buy an essential
service, even though it's not publicly
00:16:49.986 --> 00:16:52.539
funded, it should still be accessible.
00:16:53.539 --> 00:16:53.891
Amber: Yeah.
00:16:54.310 --> 00:17:01.691
I mean, I think honestly having it try
to measure the severity based on how
00:17:01.693 --> 00:17:07.418
much this actually impacts someone's
life is probably really important, and I
00:17:07.418 --> 00:17:09.022
think it's good that they're doing that.
00:17:09.093 --> 00:17:13.472
And I mean, you know, if we step into
WordPress land and we talk about all the
00:17:13.473 --> 00:17:18.687
work that I did with some other folks on
the accessibility team about themes, like
00:17:18.704 --> 00:17:24.154
we didn't say if it's not accessibility
ready it can't exist on WordPress.org.
00:17:24.299 --> 00:17:27.963
That is an optional thing that
people can choose to opt into, right?
00:17:28.177 --> 00:17:32.377
Because there are some websites
where maybe it doesn't matter.
00:17:32.531 --> 00:17:34.772
I mean, there are websites that
aren't publicly accessible.
00:17:34.773 --> 00:17:38.748
I could decide if I wanted to, I'm
gonna make a blog with photos of my
00:17:38.748 --> 00:17:42.934
kids and I'm gonna password protect it
and only my parents and Chris's parents
00:17:42.934 --> 00:17:46.533
can see it, and then I only have to
create a theme that works for them.
00:17:47.832 --> 00:17:50.059
And maybe I wanna choose
one that's not accessible.
00:17:50.059 --> 00:17:51.686
I don't think I would,
but you know what I mean.
00:17:51.686 --> 00:17:56.499
Like I think recognizing that in
how we measure things is important.
00:17:57.954 --> 00:17:58.299
So…
00:17:59.639 --> 00:18:04.046
Everyone should go check out both
the blog post and the draft which
00:18:04.046 --> 00:18:06.291
was recently updated in September.
00:18:06.309 --> 00:18:08.144
This is all open source.
00:18:08.212 --> 00:18:10.787
You can comment on it on GitHub.
00:18:10.814 --> 00:18:14.326
You can contribute to the
discussion or suggest edits if
00:18:14.327 --> 00:18:15.923
you don't like what the rules are.
00:18:16.328 --> 00:18:18.755
I think I wanna talk a little bit…
00:18:18.800 --> 00:18:20.262
i'm, this is me being a nerd.
00:18:20.580 --> 00:18:27.519
I wanna shift us into that magic
that I'm pulling off of our beverage.
00:18:27.601 --> 00:18:32.396
But I wanna lean a little bit into
this, and after the commercial break,
00:18:32.421 --> 00:18:37.056
I would like us to come back and talk
about the kind of accessibility magic
00:18:37.091 --> 00:18:39.173
that doesn't require witchcraft.
00:18:39.603 --> 00:18:46.247
Just a little knowledge and the right
ingredients and what can we do that maybe
00:18:46.247 --> 00:18:48.676
feels like magic and gets some stuff done.
00:18:50.196 --> 00:18:54.516
Steve Jones: This episode of Accessibility
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Amber: All right, so we're back.
00:20:05.354 --> 00:20:11.025
I wanna start with, for anyone who is a
new listener, it seems like we should take
00:20:11.034 --> 00:20:18.415
just a short moment to address what is the
most common magic wand of accessibility,
00:20:18.861 --> 00:20:20.561
which is accessibility overlays.
00:20:21.235 --> 00:20:25.499
maybe we should start with, for anyone
who isn't familiar, is an overlay?
00:20:26.499 --> 00:20:26.982
Chris: I'll take it.
00:20:27.911 --> 00:20:38.011
An accessibility overlay is a combination,
usually toolbar plus maybe some JavaScript
00:20:38.026 --> 00:20:43.009
based fixes that are running in the
background from a third-party server that
00:20:43.040 --> 00:20:48.238
inserts itself between the end user and
the website they're trying to browse and
00:20:48.715 --> 00:20:51.723
attempts to help solve barriers for them.
00:20:51.800 --> 00:20:56.089
And they do that through a combination
of trying to automatically fix some
00:20:56.089 --> 00:21:02.369
things, but also giving the users
additional options, which-- I mean,
00:21:02.379 --> 00:21:06.439
the menu of options on some of
these honestly makes me dizzy, and I
00:21:06.440 --> 00:21:08.102
don't even use assistive technology.
00:21:08.104 --> 00:21:13.385
But it's you know, high contrast, low
contrast, dark mode, zooming in and out,
00:21:13.388 --> 00:21:20.367
screen readers, text size, all kinds of
stuff that these solutions, try to offer.
00:21:20.501 --> 00:21:24.629
That's fundamentally what an
overlay is, and they come in about
00:21:24.630 --> 00:21:26.470
as many flavors as ice cream.
00:21:26.844 --> 00:21:28.573
There's all kinds of them out there.
00:21:29.573 --> 00:21:31.819
Amber: All right, so this sounds great.
00:21:32.133 --> 00:21:36.578
Something recognizes I have a
disability, it tries to fix the page
00:21:36.579 --> 00:21:40.910
as it loads, and it gives me a whole
slew of tools that I can enable to
00:21:40.914 --> 00:21:43.297
further fix the page to my preferences.
00:21:44.619 --> 00:21:48.253
Is this the magic that we
all need on our websites?
00:21:49.253 --> 00:21:54.211
Steve Jones: Well, so let's look at how
magic actually is in practicality, right?
00:21:54.211 --> 00:21:55.645
Like in the real world, right?
00:21:55.891 --> 00:21:59.931
Magic is something that we as
spectators sit back and observe,
00:22:00.413 --> 00:22:02.928
and it looks just like that, magic.
00:22:03.048 --> 00:22:05.964
Things are appearing where
they shouldn't be appearing.
00:22:06.200 --> 00:22:10.413
Things are disappearing, you
know, all kinds of tricks, right?
00:22:10.414 --> 00:22:11.934
And that's really what they are.
00:22:11.934 --> 00:22:18.253
But behind the scenes, that magician
is actually doing real things to make
00:22:18.253 --> 00:22:21.587
it appear to us as if it is magic.
00:22:22.388 --> 00:22:27.371
I think with the overlay, a lot of times
where, one, the first step they get
00:22:27.374 --> 00:22:31.914
in trouble is that they are trying to
present the magic, that they are trying
00:22:32.106 --> 00:22:38.307
to obfuscate the actual practical work
that goes into making the site accessible.
00:22:38.789 --> 00:22:42.430
And it's not that all the
things they do (don't) work.
00:22:43.020 --> 00:22:45.791
It's just that they are
presenting it as this magic.
00:22:45.802 --> 00:22:52.693
Click this button and magically your
accessibility problems will disappear.
00:22:53.024 --> 00:22:54.046
Amber: Within 24 hours.
00:22:55.003 --> 00:22:55.688
Steve Jones: But I actually…
00:22:55.842 --> 00:22:56.282
Amber: Yeah.
00:22:56.292 --> 00:23:00.352
Steve Jones: I think it's a little
bit more of it should be presented a
00:23:00.353 --> 00:23:03.324
little bit more as practical magic.
00:23:04.703 --> 00:23:09.358
Amber: So I think we should talk about
that a little bit more in just a minute.
00:23:09.374 --> 00:23:16.475
But I do wanna say for folks that are
questioning, you know, is this good or
00:23:16.476 --> 00:23:20.486
not, we have a whole episode that we can
link in the show notes where we talk a
00:23:20.487 --> 00:23:22.518
lot more about accessibility overlays.
00:23:22.986 --> 00:23:29.689
But I am revisiting this today because I
saw on October 8th, BugVisio… this is
00:23:29.693 --> 00:23:31.405
a company I wasn't super familiar with.
00:23:31.556 --> 00:23:33.336
They do scanning and auditing.
00:23:33.569 --> 00:23:35.105
I don't know how great their tool is.
00:23:35.124 --> 00:23:36.039
Use ours instead.
00:23:36.355 --> 00:23:40.126
But sometimes we like to look at other
people's content because people put
00:23:40.126 --> 00:23:44.518
out really interesting content, and
they actually published a study where
00:23:44.519 --> 00:23:50.637
they tested 62 websites that were
already using an accessibility overlay.
00:23:51.092 --> 00:23:54.168
They measured each one
with Axe-core twice.
00:23:54.424 --> 00:23:58.643
Once when the overlay was on, and then
once they intentionally blocked all the
00:23:58.657 --> 00:24:02.319
scripts, 'cause it's just JavaScript,
so they could block that from running.
00:24:02.723 --> 00:24:06.731
And then they tested the website after
to try and figure out was the overlay
00:24:06.763 --> 00:24:09.038
actually fixing anything or not.
00:24:09.443 --> 00:24:15.779
And they found that on 90% of the
websites, the overlay made no measurable
00:24:15.791 --> 00:24:19.184
difference to WCAG violations.
00:24:19.529 --> 00:24:26.085
93.5% of overlay sites still
failed at least one WCAG criterion.
00:24:26.575 --> 00:24:32.231
And said that this is actually slightly
worse than the 87.7% they measured just
00:24:32.231 --> 00:24:38.042
in general because they had done a,
like a control study of 219 homepages.
00:24:38.732 --> 00:24:42.864
So the ones with overlays were
worse than their random sample of
00:24:42.866 --> 00:24:44.496
websites that don't have overlays.
00:24:45.150 --> 00:24:46.065
It talks more.
00:24:46.066 --> 00:24:48.774
We'll link to it if you wanna see what
did it change, what did it not do,
00:24:48.774 --> 00:24:55.425
but I feel like just st- statistically
this shows you that overlays don't
00:24:55.788 --> 00:24:57.696
deliver on the magic they're promising.
00:24:58.949 --> 00:24:59.180
Steve Jones: Yeah.
00:24:59.181 --> 00:25:02.839
What I'd be interested… I mean, I
haven't gone super deep into that, that
00:25:02.841 --> 00:25:08.699
test that BugVizio did, but what would b-
really be interesting to see is is it just
00:25:08.712 --> 00:25:13.824
not fully fixing the certain thing that it
claims that it should fix, or is it fixing
00:25:13.824 --> 00:25:15.264
some things and breaking some things?
00:25:15.957 --> 00:25:18.458
Are we ha- is it actually
introducing accessibility
00:25:18.458 --> 00:25:20.007
regressions at the same time?
00:25:21.007 --> 00:25:21.391
Chris: Yeah.
00:25:21.451 --> 00:25:25.234
Amber: I think that's possible based on
my anecdotal observations with overlays.
00:25:25.234 --> 00:25:28.009
I've seen things where you turn
on high contrast mode and then
00:25:28.020 --> 00:25:30.957
it can't fix everything and
something fails contrast now.
00:25:31.818 --> 00:25:40.577
But I think, you know, the European
Commission says that overlays are not
00:25:40.578 --> 00:25:47.125
an appropriate solution for meeting EN
301 549 and it's also probably worth
00:25:47.153 --> 00:25:48.978
noting we could link to UsableNet.
00:25:48.999 --> 00:25:53.774
They put out a lawsuit tracker every
month, and their September data,
00:25:54.564 --> 00:25:58.648
last month, the last full month,
they have 25% of the lawsuits filed
00:25:58.648 --> 00:26:01.562
in the last month were against
defendants using accessibility widgets.
00:26:01.569 --> 00:26:06.380
So may not fix your website,
may still get you sued.
00:26:07.640 --> 00:26:11.446
Chris: Yeah, because there's this
there's this amazing tool called
00:26:11.454 --> 00:26:15.264
BuiltWith, where you can run
searches on websites and companies
00:26:15.265 --> 00:26:16.965
based on the technologies they use.
00:26:17.346 --> 00:26:21.973
And I guarantee you that the law firms
and the serial plaintiffs doing these
00:26:21.973 --> 00:26:27.497
lawsuits are using BuiltWith to find
targets, because that sticks a, you
00:26:27.499 --> 00:26:31.919
know, detectable technology element that
says, "I know I have problems, and I'm
00:26:31.921 --> 00:26:36.653
trying to fix it as cheaply as possible"
on your website, makes you a target.
00:26:36.704 --> 00:26:40.323
I think that's the reason that
this 25% statistic, that it's not
00:26:40.323 --> 00:26:42.566
unique to September 2026, folks.
00:26:42.588 --> 00:26:47.486
I've seen that 25% statistic
for, I think since 2023.
00:26:47.575 --> 00:26:52.174
Multiple years in a row, it's been 20-plus
percent of websites that at the time
00:26:52.174 --> 00:26:53.578
they're sued, they're using an overlay.
00:26:54.463 --> 00:26:57.795
Amber: I mean, we've had multiple clients
come to us who have, who are using
00:26:57.798 --> 00:27:02.252
overlays and have been sued not just
once, but like twice or three times.
00:27:02.903 --> 00:27:03.086
Steve Jones: Well…
00:27:03.501 --> 00:27:03.831
Amber: Yeah.
00:27:04.614 --> 00:27:10.695
Steve Jones: Specifically because they're
showing a widget on the front end of their
00:27:10.695 --> 00:27:13.961
we- they're showing an overlay widget
on the front end of their website, that
00:27:14.034 --> 00:27:18.461
draws the attention of potential lawsuits.
00:27:18.520 --> 00:27:21.352
And it's kind of counterintuitive to,
to what I think a lot of people think.
00:27:21.352 --> 00:27:25.338
"Well, if I show this badge that I
ha- or that I show this widget then it
00:27:25.338 --> 00:27:29.926
shows that I care and that I'm doing
something." But it, I actually think,
00:27:30.105 --> 00:27:34.193
you know, the good intentions may
actually c- come back to harm even more.
00:27:34.333 --> 00:27:34.411
Chris: Yeah.
00:27:34.853 --> 00:27:37.662
I think it's great you pointed that
out about good intentions, right?
00:27:37.663 --> 00:27:39.768
Because I don't think that
everyone installing an overlay
00:27:39.775 --> 00:27:41.379
has inherently bad intentions.
00:27:41.885 --> 00:27:44.545
In fact, I think plenty of people think
that they're doing the right thing.
00:27:44.545 --> 00:27:46.264
I've had plenty of those conversations.
00:27:46.581 --> 00:27:48.367
So don't beat yourself up if you are.
00:27:48.417 --> 00:27:50.893
You were probably taken for a
ride with a bad sales pitch.
00:27:51.893 --> 00:27:52.316
Amber: Yeah.
00:27:53.085 --> 00:27:55.701
think, I mean, I think the other
thing on the, why it might get you
00:27:55.703 --> 00:28:01.117
sued is it it sh- not that ignorance
of the law is an excuse, but it
00:28:01.117 --> 00:28:06.864
definitely, shows that you are aware
of accessibility requirements, right?
00:28:06.877 --> 00:28:13.074
In a way that maybe not having that
wouldn't show, so I don't know.
00:28:13.957 --> 00:28:18.517
So overlays are not our magic answer.
00:28:19.517 --> 00:28:23.244
Let's talk about if there's
anything that does work.
00:28:23.661 --> 00:28:27.552
For example, I think it'd be really
interesting if we could talk about
00:28:27.555 --> 00:28:31.328
some like small accessibility
fixes that maybe have dis-
00:28:31.796 --> 00:28:34.755
disproportionately large impacts.
00:28:35.523 --> 00:28:36.912
So just me being a nerd.
00:28:37.152 --> 00:28:42.045
If we're making our spell book
for new to accessibility people,
00:28:42.783 --> 00:28:43.980
what would you put in it?
00:28:43.989 --> 00:28:49.329
What are the things that you think
do kinda feel like magic or can
00:28:49.334 --> 00:28:54.018
fix something with a very small
tweak that has a big impact?
00:28:55.018 --> 00:28:56.707
Chris: Small tweak, big impact.
00:28:57.342 --> 00:28:58.145
Amber: I'll go first.
00:28:59.570 --> 00:29:01.697
Focus outlines.
00:29:02.339 --> 00:29:05.955
And that, so if you have WordPress
website, you could use our plugin
00:29:05.977 --> 00:29:11.720
and turn it on, and it would just it
should all of your focus outlines on
00:29:11.793 --> 00:29:13.581
everything back to your browser styles.
00:29:13.787 --> 00:29:18.071
But even if you don't have a
WordPress website, this is the tiniest
00:29:18.071 --> 00:29:20.088
little, I don't know, two line CSS.
00:29:20.402 --> 00:29:20.890
Steve Jones: Mm-hmm.
00:29:20.955 --> 00:29:23.222
Amber: Three lines, 'cause I guess
you've gotta have the opening tag,
00:29:23.222 --> 00:29:26.543
you gotta have the one line, and
then you gotta have the closing tag.
00:29:26.543 --> 00:29:27.830
So that's three lines of CSS.
00:29:28.137 --> 00:29:28.783
So small.
00:29:29.028 --> 00:29:31.941
And it would… And if you put an
important on it maybe, then it will
00:29:31.941 --> 00:29:33.980
fix everything on your whole website.
00:29:34.056 --> 00:29:39.292
It's so small, and it really helps a lot
of people that use keyboards to navigate.
00:29:40.292 --> 00:29:42.654
Steve Jones: Yeah, I think a big
one that I see a lot if you're using
00:29:42.658 --> 00:29:47.989
WordPress should be very simple to
fix is just clearly adding labels
00:29:47.990 --> 00:29:54.083
to inputs and making sure that error
messages themselves correctly on all
00:29:54.083 --> 00:29:55.705
your forms throughout the website.
00:29:56.189 --> 00:30:03.389
Most people doing WordPress are using some
kind of form plugin such as Gravity Forms,
00:30:03.842 --> 00:30:08.013
and Gravity Forms has settings in there if
you actually have the labels turned off.
00:30:08.013 --> 00:30:10.081
I think they're on by default,
so if they're off, somebody's
00:30:10.848 --> 00:30:14.257
intentionally done that or you're
using a kind of a legacy setup.
00:30:14.371 --> 00:30:19.167
Just making sure that those, all those
input fields have visible labels.
00:30:20.027 --> 00:30:20.184
Chris: Mm-hmm.
00:30:21.317 --> 00:30:21.575
Amber: Yeah.
00:30:21.995 --> 00:30:22.052
Chris: Yeah.
00:30:22.100 --> 00:30:25.760
Amber: You think about going back to WCAG
3 and how they wanna talk about the things
00:30:25.760 --> 00:30:31.740
that have the biggest severity impact,
like forms on your website are probably
00:30:31.741 --> 00:30:36.145
one of the most important things to get
right from an accessibility standpoint.
00:30:37.145 --> 00:30:38.528
That's where your conversions happen.
00:30:39.869 --> 00:30:43.461
Chris: That and navigation, but I
don't feel like navigation fits tidily
00:30:43.471 --> 00:30:47.703
into small, fast things you can do, so
I'm not mentioning that as an option.
00:30:48.044 --> 00:30:50.146
Usually it's like the
hardest thing you can do.
00:30:50.146 --> 00:30:51.279
It's still very impactful.
00:30:51.577 --> 00:30:55.470
What I was gonna say wa- that feels
like actually maybe kind of a l-
00:30:55.556 --> 00:31:03.627
light lift is most, maybe not all,
but most themes, builders will have
00:31:03.638 --> 00:31:08.367
some sort of centralized place with
settings where you can define colors.
00:31:08.442 --> 00:31:10.737
In core WordPress, that
might be in the customizer.
00:31:10.986 --> 00:31:12.739
Or in your theme, it might
be in your theme settings.
00:31:12.744 --> 00:31:15.099
You might have to dig around or
check documentation to find it.
00:31:15.099 --> 00:31:19.884
But once you find it, if you have light,
washed-out colors with even lighter, more
00:31:19.886 --> 00:31:24.383
washed-out colors for your color scheme,
increase that contrast until it's a
00:31:24.396 --> 00:31:27.684
four-and-a-half to one ratio, and you can
use a free contrast checker to do that.
00:31:27.978 --> 00:31:32.792
And if you can roll those out at the site
level, you're potentially eliminating
00:31:32.800 --> 00:31:36.801
hundreds or thousands or even tens of
thousands of accessibility issues with
00:31:36.804 --> 00:31:39.067
a few toggles in your settings area.
00:31:39.248 --> 00:31:42.122
So I think that's a, that's
definitely something that can feel
00:31:42.122 --> 00:31:45.454
like a magic trick particularly if
you're trying to knock issues off
00:31:45.455 --> 00:31:47.011
of a really large full-site scan.
00:31:47.944 --> 00:31:50.743
Steve Jones: Yeah, and I think
another one real easy like that
00:31:51.429 --> 00:31:52.748
along those lines is your links.
00:31:52.998 --> 00:31:55.111
You know, what are your
global styles on your links?
00:31:55.157 --> 00:31:56.491
You know, are they underlined?
00:31:56.624 --> 00:31:59.291
Do they have the correct color contrast?
00:32:00.176 --> 00:32:03.770
You know, are you u- are you
differentiating them from your normal
00:32:03.810 --> 00:32:05.966
content in a couple different ways?
00:32:06.005 --> 00:32:10.851
You know, such as color and un- and text
decoration, putting an underline under it.
00:32:10.859 --> 00:32:15.535
So that's a, that's real low-hanging
fruit that, like the same with what Chris
00:32:15.535 --> 00:32:19.339
said, could potentially fix thousands
of issues throughout your website.
00:32:20.255 --> 00:32:25.753
Amber: And so I think the pattern here
is that the things that are most magical
00:32:26.410 --> 00:32:28.530
are the things that are global issues.
00:32:29.357 --> 00:32:35.967
If you're in Accessibility Checker Pro
and you go to our Issues Explorer and
00:32:35.969 --> 00:32:37.744
you group by code snippet or something.
00:32:37.902 --> 00:32:41.927
The things where you can see this
oc- occurs almost everywhere,
00:32:42.178 --> 00:32:46.630
or in the header or the footer
so it's on every single page.
00:32:46.758 --> 00:32:50.214
And sometimes fixing that is
relatively simple and you only
00:32:50.215 --> 00:32:54.834
have to do it one time, and then it
improves your website on every URL.
00:32:55.384 --> 00:32:57.669
That's the best we can
answer for magic, I guess.
00:32:58.669 --> 00:33:02.092
Is you gotta do some work,
but there are certain things
00:33:02.094 --> 00:33:03.229
that do feel a little magical.
00:33:03.229 --> 00:33:05.857
But wait, what about AI?
00:33:06.538 --> 00:33:06.797
Chris: Yeah.
00:33:07.332 --> 00:33:12.480
So we can't not talk about it these
days, no matter what we're talking about.
00:33:12.836 --> 00:33:21.134
So what role does or could AI play
in doing some accessibility magic?
00:33:22.134 --> 00:33:26.200
Amber: All right, so I'm gonna
share an anecdote, and I hope this
00:33:26.211 --> 00:33:28.817
isn't secret information because
I'm gonna share it on our podcast.
00:33:28.843 --> 00:33:31.569
Everyone, don't tell WordPress
Accessibility Day organizing team
00:33:31.569 --> 00:33:32.646
that I shared this on our podcast.
00:33:33.646 --> 00:33:34.785
Chris: On our public podcast.
00:33:35.444 --> 00:33:36.575
Amber: Shh.
00:33:36.607 --> 00:33:38.121
No, it's just the three
of us here talking.
00:33:38.739 --> 00:33:38.749
Chris: Yeah.
00:33:38.975 --> 00:33:41.677
Amber: Enjoying our
practical magic beverage.
00:33:42.677 --> 00:33:50.396
We've been having some interesting
conversations about captioning, I do think
00:33:50.459 --> 00:33:54.122
AI captioning has come a really long way.
00:33:55.392 --> 00:34:00.700
And we have continued for WordPress
Accessibility Day to use CART captioners.
00:34:01.011 --> 00:34:05.017
At Equalize Digital, we have CART
captioners come to all of our meetups
00:34:05.040 --> 00:34:10.226
that we run and our sales webinars
that we run because historically AI
00:34:10.247 --> 00:34:11.879
captions have not been that good.
00:34:12.897 --> 00:34:17.235
But there's two things that are
happening here, in particular with Zoom,
00:34:17.261 --> 00:34:24.913
that's motivating us to kind of look
at is AI captions the magic we need?
00:34:25.310 --> 00:34:34.191
One is that in May, annoyingly, of 2026,
Zoom decided that the transcript of the
00:34:34.192 --> 00:34:36.674
session is different from the captions.
00:34:37.483 --> 00:34:42.956
Now if you are using a human being
to caption, is no transcript view
00:34:42.964 --> 00:34:46.736
where someone can view more than
just the little box of captions.
00:34:46.805 --> 00:34:50.834
They can't view the whole history
of it, and it doesn't save it as
00:34:50.835 --> 00:34:56.287
anything separate, which became
an issue for us at Meetup and also
00:34:56.298 --> 00:34:57.698
during WordPress Accessibility Day.
00:34:57.698 --> 00:35:00.654
There were people… I mean, there was
one person who was typing in all caps in
00:35:00.654 --> 00:35:04.479
the chat like, "Why did you turn off the
transcript?" And we were like, "We didn't.
00:35:04.499 --> 00:35:05.178
We promise.
00:35:05.180 --> 00:35:06.281
We have the transcript on.
00:35:06.589 --> 00:35:09.430
It's just Zoom is not going to show
you the captions in the transcript."
00:35:10.430 --> 00:35:13.361
So there's that, but then the other
thing that does feel a little bit
00:35:13.362 --> 00:35:19.272
magical is that Zoom, as part of that
change, they implemented the ability of
00:35:19.334 --> 00:35:26.725
if you're using AI to caption and you
have it turned on in your account then,
00:35:26.993 --> 00:35:31.706
the AI captions could be delivered in
one of, I wanna call it 25 languages.
00:35:31.707 --> 00:35:32.667
That number could be wrong.
00:35:33.045 --> 00:35:33.174
Steve Jones: Mm-hmm.
00:35:34.371 --> 00:35:36.330
Amber: Which does feel like magic to me.
00:35:36.539 --> 00:35:36.937
Steve Jones: Yeah.
00:35:37.466 --> 00:35:37.476
Chris: Yeah.
00:35:37.631 --> 00:35:41.175
Amber: During WordPress Accessibility
Day, there was someone who joined
00:35:41.370 --> 00:35:43.279
I'm kind of guessing based on their
name, I could be wrong, but they
00:35:43.280 --> 00:35:47.537
might have been from Germany, and
they were like, "Wait, why can't I
00:35:47.548 --> 00:35:49.601
change the captions to my language?"
00:35:50.496 --> 00:35:53.148
'Cause they wanted to be able to read
them because they're not English isn't
00:35:53.148 --> 00:35:55.931
their first language, and they wanted
to support that, and we were like, "It
00:35:55.932 --> 00:35:59.116
really sucks, but Zoom doesn't support
that when we're using human captioners.
00:35:59.128 --> 00:36:03.378
We have to use the AI cap-" So now we're
having all these discussions, and I will
00:36:03.380 --> 00:36:06.256
preview, and probably we should come
back for another Accessibility Craft
00:36:06.281 --> 00:36:11.788
episode about this because I'm planning
to run diffs the next couple months on
00:36:11.790 --> 00:36:16.126
both our meetup, and then for the ones
I can get from WordPress Accessibility
00:36:16.127 --> 00:36:20.769
Day where we have a transcript to
compare and see is the AI good enough?
00:36:20.774 --> 00:36:22.654
Could we stop paying… Sounds horrible.
00:36:22.655 --> 00:36:23.666
I wanna pay humans.
00:36:23.707 --> 00:36:24.729
I think that's good.
00:36:24.729 --> 00:36:26.305
I don't wanna take jobs away from humans.
00:36:26.801 --> 00:36:32.573
But if it provides this extra magic of
now all of a sudden our content can be
00:36:32.574 --> 00:36:34.696
available in all these extra languages.
00:36:35.107 --> 00:36:39.127
That to me feels like
worth exploring, so…
00:36:39.345 --> 00:36:41.523
Steve Jones: i'd like to expand on
that a little bit too, 'cause I've had
00:36:41.627 --> 00:36:46.509
my own little kind of epiphany with
you know, AI transcriptions and stuff.
00:36:46.902 --> 00:36:50.491
So I just recently went through
many rounds of interviews with
00:36:50.495 --> 00:36:52.054
people all around the world.
00:36:53.115 --> 00:36:58.671
In doing so, I was transcribing the,
you know, the, the interviews so that I
00:36:58.672 --> 00:37:02.073
could have it after the fact to review,
not necessarily for the transcript
00:37:02.073 --> 00:37:06.513
itself, but I got in a few… I got
in several calls with pe- you know,
00:37:06.513 --> 00:37:11.695
people from India and Egypt and, you
know, different places around the world,
00:37:12.309 --> 00:37:17.113
and where their accents are very thick
and their English is not super fluent.
00:37:18.113 --> 00:37:21.679
There was definitely two or three calls
that I was on where if I didn't have
00:37:21.680 --> 00:37:25.323
that transcript on, I would've had
no idea what the person was saying.
00:37:25.663 --> 00:37:29.819
I could've caught a few things here and
there maybe put, pieced it together.
00:37:30.385 --> 00:37:34.521
But when I got in those calls, I pulled
the transcript up and I was watching it.
00:37:34.830 --> 00:37:37.965
And the interesting thing about
it is it goes two ways, Amber.
00:37:37.967 --> 00:37:41.488
It's not just that it takes my
English transcript and provides
00:37:41.489 --> 00:37:42.702
it in these different languages.
00:37:43.054 --> 00:37:47.650
It's that the, the AI transcription
understands those accents…
00:37:48.180 --> 00:37:48.879
Chris: I was gonna ask.
00:37:48.889 --> 00:37:53.968
Even with the accent, like the transcript
itself made sense as you were reading it?
00:37:54.014 --> 00:37:57.193
Like it wasn't getting words wrong,
at least as far as you could perceive?
00:37:57.729 --> 00:37:59.996
Steve Jones: Yeah, I mean, it's
not perfect, but I don't think any
00:37:59.996 --> 00:38:01.734
transcription service is perfect.
00:38:02.178 --> 00:38:05.974
But I'm listening going, "I can't
understand any of this." And…
00:38:06.024 --> 00:38:07.126
Amber: But the AI could.
00:38:07.323 --> 00:38:09.059
Steve Jones: The transcript's
just spitting it right out
00:38:09.109 --> 00:38:10.541
in perfect English for me.
00:38:10.868 --> 00:38:11.118
So…
00:38:11.326 --> 00:38:15.100
Amber: That's good to know because we
had… This was a conversation with
00:38:15.103 --> 00:38:18.380
WordPress Accessibility Day, 'cause they
were like, "You need to have speakers
00:38:18.381 --> 00:38:22.533
that don't have that don't just have
American accents." And so then everybody
00:38:22.534 --> 00:38:25.476
was like, well, they were looking at
our upcoming, they were like, "Well,
00:38:25.476 --> 00:38:29.394
when William presents, maybe you could
get him to really put on a Scottish
00:38:29.394 --> 00:38:34.200
accent the whole time just to see
how the AI handles it." I don't know.
00:38:34.218 --> 00:38:38.000
But you're already saying you think
the AI can handle the accents?
00:38:38.145 --> 00:38:40.154
Steve Jones: Yeah, it must be training
with people with different accents, right?
00:38:40.164 --> 00:38:41.043
And, you know…
00:38:41.097 --> 00:38:41.497
Amber: Yeah.
00:38:41.584 --> 00:38:43.163
Steve Jones: How do people from
different re- you know, countries
00:38:43.164 --> 00:38:47.798
throughout the world do like an
English, you know, a translation.
00:38:47.956 --> 00:38:52.090
Because I mean, I found it
extremely helpful, and I've
00:38:52.090 --> 00:38:56.238
never relied on transcriptions b-
before that, and it was just…
00:38:56.358 --> 00:38:58.011
It was quite eye-opening to me.
00:38:58.011 --> 00:39:01.110
Oh, this is not just for me to
reference later, this is m- for me
00:39:01.110 --> 00:39:05.443
to actually fluently communicate
with somebody that doesn't speak
00:39:05.445 --> 00:39:07.038
with the same exact accent as me.
00:39:08.078 --> 00:39:09.123
Amber: That's really interesting.
00:39:09.136 --> 00:39:10.291
So maybe that is some magic.
00:39:10.321 --> 00:39:14.616
I'm always curious on the dev side, is
there any AI magic happening there that
00:39:14.617 --> 00:39:16.916
people can be aware of on accessibility?
00:39:17.916 --> 00:39:21.631
Steve Jones: Yeah, I mean, I think
we would not be 100% truthful if
00:39:21.632 --> 00:39:25.030
we're not saying that AI doesn't
help, 'cause it absolutely helps.
00:39:25.051 --> 00:39:27.814
You can use AI to test
for accessibility issues.
00:39:27.814 --> 00:39:31.129
You can use AI to throw your
solutions back and forth.
00:39:31.144 --> 00:39:34.316
You can use AI to help you
identify the s- the success
00:39:34.318 --> 00:39:36.325
criterion that a certain thing is.
00:39:36.340 --> 00:39:40.598
Or you can even use it to "Well,
my auditor's telling me this. I'm
00:39:40.606 --> 00:39:43.288
questioning it. What do you think?" Right?
00:39:43.316 --> 00:39:46.900
And you can have it help you
create code snippets to help
00:39:46.999 --> 00:39:49.779
remediate accessibility issues.
00:39:50.860 --> 00:39:53.904
We've actually entered into
a, an experimental phase
00:39:53.904 --> 00:39:55.159
with Accessibility Checker.
00:39:55.168 --> 00:39:59.474
So Accessibility Checker will do
front-end fixes on your website, like
00:39:59.486 --> 00:40:03.164
automated "magic" fixes on your website.
00:40:04.507 --> 00:40:08.734
Accessibility Checker will tell you
how the magician is doing the tricks.
00:40:09.027 --> 00:40:12.443
If it doesn't do them correctly y-
you know, we don't just apply a fix.
00:40:12.529 --> 00:40:14.293
We check it with the
Accessibility Checker.
00:40:14.294 --> 00:40:19.522
So if our fix is applied and it actually
didn't work, then Accessibility Checker
00:40:19.522 --> 00:40:21.361
itself will flag it as an issue.
00:40:22.125 --> 00:40:26.701
We're validating our own fixes, which
overlays typically don't do a lot of.
00:40:26.808 --> 00:40:27.213
So-
00:40:27.265 --> 00:40:30.297
Amber: I don't think overlays
tell you, "Hey, we, it broke
00:40:30.297 --> 00:40:31.151
on the…" I don't know.
00:40:31.223 --> 00:40:31.253
… Steve Jones: it may scan…
00:40:31.426 --> 00:40:34.452
Amber: Maybe they can at least tell
you if it failed to load on the page.
00:40:34.599 --> 00:40:35.122
Steve Jones: Yeah, I do…
00:40:35.297 --> 00:40:35.771
Amber: I don't know.
00:40:35.894 --> 00:40:37.872
… Steve Jones: Think some of them offer
separate scanning services and stuff
00:40:37.873 --> 00:40:42.785
too, but we're experimenting with some
things with Accessibility Checker and
00:40:42.819 --> 00:40:45.211
tying AI into Accessibility Checker.
00:40:45.229 --> 00:40:49.200
'Cause we've spent six years building
up this data infrastructure for
00:40:49.202 --> 00:40:52.830
Accessibility Checker, these rule sets
for Accessibility Checker, and now
00:40:52.832 --> 00:40:57.618
how can we expose that through an MCP
server that you can connect with your
00:40:57.640 --> 00:41:03.275
AI to help you, get that information
and then make a fix for it, and then
00:41:03.340 --> 00:41:06.058
apply it all through an AI interface.
00:41:06.743 --> 00:41:10.729
So I think it's, I think it's worth
going down that road, but I don't
00:41:10.730 --> 00:41:14.457
think it's worth giving up the…
You know, there's still-- We still
00:41:14.459 --> 00:41:16.376
need humans to do the manual audits.
00:41:16.812 --> 00:41:20.417
We can't w- see a time where we're
ever gonna get away from that.
00:41:21.845 --> 00:41:26.051
And user testing is always super important
if, you know, if you're dealing with,
00:41:26.092 --> 00:41:30.302
you know, testing for different impacted
populations and things like that.
00:41:30.320 --> 00:41:34.408
So the AI is a great tool to
help supplement us, but it's not
00:41:34.408 --> 00:41:35.901
a replacement for everything.
00:41:36.056 --> 00:41:39.095
Chris: Well, that was the through line I
heard in literally everything you said.
00:41:39.107 --> 00:41:40.574
It is helping me do this.
00:41:40.586 --> 00:41:42.231
It is helping me research this.
00:41:42.246 --> 00:41:44.129
It is giving me ideas for that.
00:41:44.529 --> 00:41:49.172
It is offering additional context from an
accessibility finding I received to help
00:41:49.173 --> 00:41:51.931
me respond in XYZ appropriate way, right?
00:41:52.199 --> 00:41:55.067
It's supplementing the human in
the room, improving you, making
00:41:55.067 --> 00:41:56.412
you faster, making you better.
00:41:56.816 --> 00:42:02.175
But the intent is not to have it be
a replacement, except for captions.
00:42:02.464 --> 00:42:03.363
Maybe, I don't know.
00:42:03.601 --> 00:42:04.429
That's the…
00:42:04.535 --> 00:42:05.068
Amber: Yeah.
00:42:06.068 --> 00:42:08.866
It's an i- it's one
ingredient in the spell.
00:42:09.471 --> 00:42:09.798
Chris: Yeah.
00:42:10.285 --> 00:42:10.662
Yeah.
00:42:11.554 --> 00:42:12.840
Amber: Yeah.
00:42:12.918 --> 00:42:17.239
Steve Jones: Yeah and captions are
something that lend itself AI very well.
00:42:17.269 --> 00:42:23.051
And AI, be, you know, just as
overlays will present their solutions
00:42:23.077 --> 00:42:26.544
as one-click magic fixes, right?
00:42:26.944 --> 00:42:31.698
People making AI transcription services
will present their transcripts as
00:42:31.740 --> 00:42:35.902
an AI solution, when in reality,
I'm sure there's a slew of software
00:42:35.902 --> 00:42:40.734
engineers, there's a slew of people
giving them data, testing this, right?
00:42:40.745 --> 00:42:43.426
Like, how do you find all those
people with those different
00:42:43.731 --> 00:42:45.161
English accents, right?
00:42:46.467 --> 00:42:49.480
There's probably still a ton
of human involvement in the
00:42:49.481 --> 00:42:50.778
generation of that service.
00:42:51.578 --> 00:42:54.603
Amber: Things that look like they would
just work by magic are powered by lots
00:42:54.605 --> 00:42:56.258
and lots of works behind the scenes.
00:42:57.005 --> 00:42:57.697
Steve Jones: Exactly.
00:42:57.919 --> 00:42:58.290
Yeah.
00:42:58.985 --> 00:42:59.298
Amber: Yep.
00:43:00.588 --> 00:43:02.278
So, well, I don't know.
00:43:02.385 --> 00:43:06.961
It's kind of an, an interesting
conversation and I would love
00:43:06.961 --> 00:43:08.168
to hear from other people.
00:43:08.190 --> 00:43:12.298
If you wanna leave us a comment, let
us know if you found what you think
00:43:12.307 --> 00:43:16.675
is a little magic trick that helps
make accessibility easier for you.
00:43:17.377 --> 00:43:18.836
Leave us a comment and let us know.
00:43:19.836 --> 00:43:20.189
Chris: All right.
00:43:20.423 --> 00:43:21.119
Bye everybody
00:43:22.220 --> 00:43:22.604
Steve Jones: Cheers.
00:43:23.369 --> 00:43:25.679
Thanks for listening
to Accessibility Craft.
00:43:25.799 --> 00:43:29.819
If you found this episode valuable, please
help us reach more people by subscribing,
00:43:29.819 --> 00:43:33.089
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sharing this with your colleagues.
00:43:33.699 --> 00:43:36.794
Accessibility Craft is a production
of Equalize Digital Inc. Steve
00:43:36.794 --> 00:43:38.474
Jones composed our theme music.
00:43:38.750 --> 00:43:41.870
To learn how Equalize Digital can
support you on your accessibility
00:43:41.870 --> 00:43:44.670
journey, visit us at EqualizeDigital.com.